Gaza, the israelpalestin conflict has now witnessed an unprecedental level of violence, with over 1200 israelis killed on october 7th, how do we now define the unparalleled killing of almost 30,00 palestinians with over 100 of those children . Why did it take events on october 7th to once again train the worlds eyes a conflict that is often reported without Historical Context . Here to discuss todays topic is dr. Mark homfrees from ireland, israels along with hamserties from the. Sapience institute, but before we speak to our next guest, lets get a quick overview on this weeks topic. So lets introduce todays guests. Markers is lactorate in computing at dublin city university. He is bachelor of science from University College dublin and the phd in Computer Science from the university of cambridge. His research is an Artificial Intelligence and has awance of interests including politics. And genealogy. Hamser sortis is the founder and ceo of the sapience institute. He is the author of the bestselling book, the divine reality, god, islam, and the mirage of atheism, and unveiding tyrani, the janocide in gaza and of falsanis narratives on palestine. He is currently completing his phd on theological philosophy. Gentlemen, welcome to the show. Now to begin proceedings, im going to ask you both to give rough five minute intro and of hamza. If we can have you starting, thank you, thank you for having us, so im going to argue for the case that israels war on gaza is genocide, so im going to start with article 2 of the Genocide Convention of 1948, it provides the following delineation, in the present convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in hole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such a, members of the group, b causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; c deliberately inflicting on the Group Conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part, d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group, e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group, so lets prove intent, but before we do that, its very important to un hack something, because intent doesnt mean that you have to focus on peoples statements. If you look at the un report that was published in 1992, its called final report on the commission of experts established pursuent. To Security Council resolution on page 26 under the genocide section, it says in certain cases there would be evidence of actions or emissions of such a degree that the defendant may reasonably be assumed to have been aware of the consequences of his or her conduct which goes to the establishment of intent but not necessarily motive, so from action you can infer backwards to intent. We have over 100 genocidal statements from 30 plus israeli ministers, politicians and the idf, proper evil people. For example, take the israeli heritage minister amikhai eliiyahu, he said israel must find ways for gazans that are more painful than death. Take yav gallant, minister of defense. He said, hamas loss control of the north of the strip, we were doing a gazan nakba of 2023. For the audience you dont know, the nakba was the expulsion of. Over 700 thousand palestinians and the massacre and also the destroying of 600 palestinian villages. He also says, i have ordered a complete siege on the gaza strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. Were fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly. Isaac herzog, another evil person, the president , he says, there are no innocent civilians in gaza, hes bring the lie, the the lines between a combatent and a noncombatent. What about benjamin . Netanyahu, the Prime Minister, he said, you must remember what amalek has done to you, says our bible, and this refers to one samuel 15 3 that says, now go, attack the amalekites and and totally destroy all that belongs to them, do not spare them, put to death men and women, children, and infants, cattle, and sheep, camels and donkeys. This is pure genocide, genocidal intent here, because hes blowing the the the boundaries if you like between a compatant and a noncombetant and hes saying kill children, you have kish, minister of education, i relate to them, meaning the gazans, like amelek, meaning wipe them out. Nisim vaturi, deputy speaky of the knesset, says the war will never end if we dont expel them all. Ivy ditcher, minister of agriculture and rural development, this is gazas nakba 2003, and theres so, theres many more. We also have a zinis think tank that published the blueprint for palestinian genocide. This think tank is called. Institute for National Security and zianist strategy and it states that it outlines a plan for resettlement and final rehabilitation in egypt of the entire population of gaza, the entire population. It was written by ahmed whiteman who leads the libertarian cocus of israels israels ruling liquid party. We dont even need this statements, we could look at the war statistics and we could infer backwards just like what the un report said. When you look at the statistics. Of euromed, which is swiss based, its based in gaza, you have around 30,000 people that have died, over 11,00 are children, you have over 56,00 injuries, you have over 100 journalists killed, you have 1. 9 million displaced displaced and the homes have been destroyed, over 65,00 homes have been destroyed, you have over 300 damage schools, you have 183 damaged mosks, damaged churches are three. You have 226 deaths of medical staff and so on and so forth. Now whats very interesting is this during the blitz, okay, the nazis when they bombed england, it was over 9 month period intensely, but it really technically was over 4 years. More people have died in gaza, then they died in london during the blitz, and the blitz was like carpet bombing, it wasnt. Dicision strikes, so make that of what you will. What about the us1 afghanistan . The us dropped more than 700 bombs on afghanistan in both 2018 and 2019. Israel dropped an estimated 6,00 bombs in gaza in less than a week. Also even the americans, american us intelligent assessment has says has said that nearly half of the air to ground munitions that israel has used in gaza are dumb bombs, meaning they are not guided. Its just anything goes, anything can be destroyed, and even President Biden right, genocide joe, he said that israel has engaged an indiscriminate bombing, and this is supported by scholars, genocide scholars, just eight days after october the 7th, 800 genocide scholars said that what was happening in gaza was imminent genocide, and i quote, we are compelled to sound the alarm about the possibility of the crime of genocide being perpetrated by israel, forces against palestinians in the gaza strip, and finally you have 48 state crime scholars and they said the following israels declared intentions were again clear and explicit. Recently genocidal, decades of disposition, occupation, structural violence, false eviction and apartide discrimination have followed, we are witnessing now, what we are witnessing now is the denument of the israeli states genocide of the indigenous palestinians, we are seeing second nakba. Now some people may argue that the idf and israel warns the innocent civilians that bombs are coming, they usually give only 15 minutes and when they leave their homes they. Bomb their attempts to evacuate, this is wellknown with aerial analysis and this is just really clear that they just want to annihilate everybody and at the end of the day i think whoever supports the Israeli Regime what theyre doing right now is immoral by definition, thank you hamza, mark, well thanks for having me on uh the um theres a lot on pack there were were going to get through all of those all of those issues uh so obviously um think the use of the word genocide to describe the war uh in gaza is is is nonsense and its pretty much impossible to define definition of the word genocide that applies to that word that does not apply to almost every single war in in Human History so what i want to do is go back to the intent and and just start with the intent and and see to where weve come from because ive been speaking about gaza for some years and written about gaza and i always had an optimism about gaza, which is that i what i want, and i think i, i cant speak for israel bush, certainly what the average person on my side of the fence wants is we or what we did want anyway until 7th of october was for the gazans to pursue peace, was for the gazans to pursue prosperity and peace, to accept that whatever dreams they had of conquering jerusalem or again. Back to 1948 were not going to happen to accept the border was there between gaza and israel to respect the border and make gaza wonderful place to be, wonderful place to live uh to stop the rocket fire, to pursue business, possibly possibly even tourism, gaza could have been a prosperous little resource on the mediterranean sea, ganzens chose a different route and what i want to do is i just want look at the point of the 6th of october, because on the 6th of october israel had no plans to do anything like this, israel had no plans for any kind of war, is no plans to clear anybody out in northern gaza or gaza all together, what israel wanted was for gazans to stop, to to accept that it was imperfect world, accept this border and stop the conflict on the border, the west bank is another problem, you know the thats theres no obvious border is the main problem. On the west bank, but theres an obvious border on gaza, so there could have been peace, there was an imperfect world there on the 6th of october, um, so it was just another day of deterrance, the 7th of october, as far as israel is concerned, it knew that uh, the gazan regime, the hamas were, basically genocidal racists to would kill every jew if they could, but it didnt seem that they could ever get that kind of power, that they were detaired, they were contained within gaza, and and uh does be these uh uh rounds of warfare and um and then they be detaired again for another year or two from another round of rocket far so despite the presence these genocidal racists uh who wanted to kill all all israelis uh israel was reasonably relaxed it was another year of deterrance uh that we will deter these people so what happened on the 7th of october was that entire world ended and i dont think. People really understand what has actually happened, okay . It doesnt really matter what i say, it doesnt matter what any of us say, uh, you have to understand whats changed in israel, which is that deterrance is gone. Nobody believes in deterrance anymore since the 7th of october, no, nobody believes that hamas can exist there anymore and can be detaired and people can live near the border and be safe. What hamas said to israel, clearer than i think any group has ever said to any other . Group in the history of the world are certainly right up there, is if you want to live, you have to exterminate jos, hamas, as hamas, as as a group, if you want to live, you want to have any life for your children and you have to exterminate us, thats what hamas said to israel, so thats what israel is doing, now israel does not want to exterminate the entire gasan people or the Palestinian People across the west bank, um, but israel has declared that it is going to wipe hamas. Uh off the map, and independent to what you or i think about this, this is, i think, i think its clear now, after few months, this is whats going to happen, this war is going to carry on all through 20. 24 until hamas unconditionally surrenders and thats actually the only way this ends, so uh uh theres no way there any kind of International Course judgments, any kind of expelling of ambassadors, any kind of trade sanctions will make any difference, the only thing that will make any difference is hamas surrendering and releasing the hostages, theres no way israel is going to abandon those hostuses, so i think its a terrible, im not saying this is good right, this is uh. Is appalling right, all the innocents and and i have no doubt, though i deny its genocide absolutely, i have no doubt the many, many innocents that have that have been killed, that have been injured, that that have lost their homes through no fault their own, war is horrible, what happened to the israelis was obviously horrible, um, this is not my plan, and my plan was gazans give up, and i, i even said this in in a talk that. Hasnt abandoned the struggle, which is kind of language that someone engaged in the struggle does not want to hear, why dont you just abandon the struggle and pursue pursue peace and prosperity, because you could have nice life if you just abandoned your dreams, abandoned, abandoned your struggle and pursued other dreams, so for me thats what gasen should have done, its an absolute tragedy whats happens to israel and in particular to gaza, hamassive destroyed everything, and i think independent of what we think about. Um this is going to run, the the the only the only thing i think that the only hate to provide any hope really, i used to provide hope, i said its so easy in gaza, west bank is hard because theres no border, gaza was easy bause there was a border, um the border of course only was defined in 2005, but you know when all the jewish settlers were expelled, but uh there was a border, so gaza was easy to solve and i had optimism, you could just. You could just pursue, i used to say, this is a line that drove people, i debaas richard boys, he just sneered at this line, i said in to that two years ago, i said, why, why dont gazen just pursue peace and shopping, peace, work, shopping, life, and he just sneered at that, he he regarded it as selfevidently obvious that gasens had to pursue the struggle, now pursuing the struggle has led to this unbelievable disaster, and i dont think its, i i dont, this is this is not. My dream for gasens at all, so i know the debate is about genocide and i want to talk about few a bunch of related topics, so but i wanted to start with the idea that none of this was israels idea from the word go. Um, i will, i do plan to talk about what hamser said, we well get into debating that, whether the the military campaign is a genocide, but i just want to start by saying. None of this was was was a plan either by either from me or from or from israel uh on the 6th of october. Okay, just pick it up on on one point. Peace, shopping, life. Yes, what have you to say that . I dont believe hes an irish man. Mean, we need to do a dna test, or we need to check his passport, or heard his wife is not irish, maybe shes infected him in some way. Is she english . You believe in struggle . No, i believe that that that. Should have morality and whats very interesting, let me ask you a question, 7th of october why are you racist . Let me tell you no, let me tell you asking that question, because lets keep it civil, no let me let me let me let me just no its civil, im being angry, im just you are a classic atheist, let me tell you why, sorry, classic racist and youre classic atheist as well, frodian slip, frodian slip, but hes an atheist as well, atheist racist, of course, so but why you racist because youre talking about october the 6th . Where is your condemnation of the equivalent 5 october the 7th that were inflicted on the palestinians from 2008 to 2020 . Where is your condemnation of that . You talk about october the 6th as if everything was rosy and peaceful. Israel has an apartite system there around 65 laws, no more than no less than 65 laws that discriminate against Arab Israelis and the palestinians, you have illegal occupation, you have killing. No, lets talk about gaza and the whole of israel, because this is about israels disgraceful zinanism. Youre not saying nothing about what happened before october the 7th with regards to its reality, where is your condemnation of the equivalent of five, october the 7th, 2008, where is your condemnation . Why the more asymmetry . Is it because youre racist . Well, no, thats kind of ridiculous, ignor or ignorant, or ignor, youre either racist or ignorant okay, let let mark the question. Bit disappointed in you cuz i i thought i dont mind i thought you were more civil debation this is civil im being im being this intellectual position youre either ignorant or youre racist mark please no uh well hams actually has been a lot more civilized than some of the online things ive seen him in so anyway lets lets cool it down a minute first of all its a bit of a step to say that uh if i dont uh take your view of the israeli conflict from 1944 to uh 2023 that im a racist uh i may say that well i may take a different view to what happened in in the conflict so so you said where is your condemnation of all the october the 7th etc. Now the point is the conflict is very is very big, we we all agree on that, theres theres a huge amount to read, theres a huge amount to think about to learn about uh, mean even starting in 1947 you could argue is is slightly too late, but should we talk about the hebron massager, should we you should we go further back uh, but um theres an enormous amount to read uh and and think and consider similar to to to perhaps most conflicts. The world uh, the current flareup obviously starts on october the 7th, but its obviously part of a 75 year uh conflict. Now my point about october the 6th is on october the 6th, especially in gaza, uh, there are, there is still a chance of of better life, that chance is gone now, so youre not going to condemn the equivalent, answer first on on october the 6th. uh there is a chance of better life, israel still exists, the west Bank Problems arent solved, so im asking the gazans to park that, park their west bank, the problems of the west Bank Brothers if you like, and take a look at gaza, right, theres occupation, the jews have been have been gone, gaza is occupied by international for 18 years, this is wrong, hold on, hold on, the jews were all kicked out in 2005, theyre gone from gaza for 18 years, um, there the. Israel is maintaining some control obviously over the borders because october 7 showed and the food hold on october the 7th showed why uh uh israel was maintaining a hard border with gaza, however tens of thousands of gazans, not quite sure the number is that 30,000 gazans had work permits to come into israel, they were vestish that they werent terrorists, they werent a mass, they had work permits to come in to israel to work, and they come into israel and work and go back to gaza, right . Thats all gone now. Uh, gazans, the wealthier gazons will go, you not answer my question, im talking about the 6th of october, the wealthier gazons would uh go on holiday to dubai, to turkey and come back to gaza, it wasnt a prison, are you answering the question . Hold on, your question is, why could they not, your question is, its impossible for them to accept the world of 6th of october, right . No, im not saying that, im saying your. Talking about october, youre framing, its a misframing, youre framing october the 6th, i think as if everything is fine, but from at least 2008 onwards, there have been equivalent of 5, october the 7th, and youve said nothing about that, so so im im in a morally and epistemically justified justified position to say that youre either ignorant or racist because you have moral asymmetry, its a moral asymmetry, children have died innocent. People have been killed equivalent to 5 october the 7th since 2008 and and and this omission which is a typical z strategy by the way you havent now because youre not even addressing it so the point is but lets go back to the normal point the question is about genocide we talked about the definition of genocide we have shown intent so what are you going to say about the genocidal language the Prime Minister of the president . Of key members of the ruling party, of think tanks that influence the ruling party, genocidal statements, let me give you a thought experiment, if genocide joe, joe biden, if any politician in the west said those statements, the whole world will be on fire, but the minute your zionist friends have said something, oh you know lets its poetry or lets do some metaphorical linguistic analysis, find it immoral that you cant even talk about, these explicit genocidal statements . Um, i dont make those kind of genocidal statements, are statements that could potentially, you support, you support an entity that does as genocidal, you support a genocidal entity, i dont like the uh outrageous statements like talking about the amalokites in in the in the is it outrageous or genocidal, which one is it . Well the outrages is like maybe calling someone racist right, but to say genocide is a different issue. Right, is it just outrageous or is it genocidal . So look, here, heres the thing, is it a genocidal statement to you . I think some of those statements are, so the intent is there, no, some, hold on, some of those statements are. In terms of rhetoric are you know do do but doesnt the so called rhetoric isnt that backed up by whats been happening on the ground thats my point right so my point is that after the most traumatic event mean i presume you will agree right lets lets see if youll agree with one thing i presume youll agree that october the 7th was the most traumatic event uh not just for israel but for jews since adolf hitler since the holocaust well. I am under moral or epistemic obligation to believe zinis because i have a list of 10 lies back by academics from the zins entity. I a moral human being, im an intellectual my phd student. Let me finish, im just talking about it impact im answering. Well, the impact could be because of propaganda. The point im trying to say is this, the moral agents are under no moral or epistemic obligation to believe known liars and then. Liers, theyve the false flag in egypt, pretending to blame it on the the an, the muslim brotherhood, you had designist who had irish passports that killed someone in in in dubai, someone, he was a hamas, yeah, whatever, its a human being at the end of the day, but the point im trying to say is, youre saying masad is no right to kill hamas, no, im saying to you that theyre known liers, there are known liers, so how can you . 40 beheaded babies, okay, name me one of the babies that were beheaded, one, just one, well, there some children were uh, name me one beheaded baby, some women and children were beheaded, name me one baby, name, maybe not forty, that was one, that was one misreporting, oh misreporting, it wasnt propaganda or lies or anything, there was a lot of there was a lot, what about the idf who said that basically it was our own people that killed some of them as well, sorry guys, just up for second, mark just made a statement and i just just the address marks point in the streets of the gaza strip which was suffocating under wave of profound sadness hopes of getting a loaf of bread turned into funeral processions and and sorrow. On the morning that followed the dreadful flower massacre, families buried their hungry marttered children, as arab aircrafts didnt hesitate to replay the same aerial drop theater, dropping the packages this time, inside zionist israeli settlements of the gaza enclave. Is there anything more humiliating and denigrating against a genocide stricken and started people . If aid was the real reason behind the shared, then sain people who wanted to help should have opened the rafah border, allowing a trucks into gaza and handing them over. To international or local entities responsible for distributing them to the starving people bait in the form of aid in gaza this week on the media stream. When i first heard that in this weeks episode of irantech were going to be going into radiator manufacturing facility, i wasnt super excited at first, but now i have to say i didnt know uh the surprising amount of nuance that goes into manufacturing these radiators, so join me as i venture deep into this facility in this weeks episode. The headlines dozens more palestinians fall victim to ongoing israel strikes on gaza raising the total death tool from the aggression to near the 31. China says a deadly israel on gaza is a tragedy for humankind and a disgrace for. Realization calling for immediate ceasefire and the us military confirms a missile attack a commercial ship in the gulf of aden as the emany Army Continues to target his rady bound vessels