Transcripts For MSNBC Morning Joe 20240828

Thats to be expected. The alternative, however, is simply untenable. At home, another four years of Donald Trumps chaotic leadership, this time focused on advancing the dangerous goals of project 2025 will hurt real, everyday people and waken our sacred institutions. Richard, which are the reasons who have not stood up yet, who served in the Trump Administration, who could actually make a difference in terms of persuading those very few, unpersuadable voters who are left . And do you expect any more of them to stand up between now and november . I mean, theres the former Vice President who has, shall we say, a certain physical and political incentive to stand up, given how he was do you think hes going to do it . No. Look, i think if people were going to stand up, theyve had now, shall we say, several years to do it. Several people simply have not. Disagree with me or not, but how much of a difference will it make . Its certainly not going to shake trumps base. Im not sure many of these people would influence the independents or a small number of voters in swing states. Itll be interesting to see. Its fascinating, katty, how many of people who work with him most closely, who know him best, have come out against him. That, to me, is a stunning indictment. No question, those who know him the best decided not to back him, eugene. But Adam Kinzinger, republican, spoke at the Democratic Convention last week, gave a good speech. Tim miller, our friend from msnbc and the bulwark applauded him. Said, where are the rest . We know some have spoken out against him privately, but where was john kelly, where was rex tillerson, where was mike pence . Where was george w. Bush, liz cheney, and the list goes on and on . People who privately and sometimes publicly made it clear they disagree with donald trump, would never vote for him again, but theres always been Something Holding them back from taking the center stage, whether political ambition or not, but to forcefully denounce trump and back harris. To richard point, does it even matter . I dont see it changing. If every prominent republican who inwardly, secretly despises donald trump and thinks he is dangerous for the country and the world, had spoken at the Democratic Convention, there wouldnt have been any room for democrats to speak. You know, its not like theres a shortage of these people. But its very clear at this point, after years, that many of them are not going to come out. Theyre going to remain in exile or in the closet, i guess, and i dont does it make a difference that this group came out . I think very marginally. I think in so far as theyre trying to create a Permission Structure for establishment Republican Voters who are who really dont want to vote for either trump or harris to just go ahead and vote for harris. I dont think there are necessarily a lot of people who are going to be pushed off that fence to actually voting for harris, but, you know, tight election and small numbers can make a big difference. You know what, katty . I think theres two ways i have seen republicans in this trump era go at the former president while also trying to preserve republicanism in the way that they remember it. You have people like adam kinzen kinzinger, outside approach, appearing at a Democratic Convention, trying to create what eugene calls out as the Permission Structure to patriotically maintain your time as a conservative but vote for Small D Democracy by voting for Kamala Harris. Then you have people like mike pence, like liz cheney, some of the other names weve mentioned here, who are never going to come out and disavoid their party. That was nbcs Erin Mclaughlin with that report. Meanwhile, negotiations continue in cairo this week for a ceasefire and hostage release deal in gaza. According to White House National security spokesperson john kirby, discussions will continue for the next few days. One issue to be tackled includes how many hostages may be exchanged. Their identities and the pace of their potential release. This comes after an Intense Exchange between israel and hezbollah this weekend that stoked fears of a wider regional war. The Washington Post citing officials and analysts reports the exchange was a facesaving moment for both sides, allowing them to step back from the edge of a wider conflict, letting hezbollah claim vengeance and israel to project confidence in its security apparatus. Richard, your piece in Foreign Affairs bears the headline, the trouble with allies. America needs a playbook for difficult friends. You write the tensions with israel over the past year are merely one example of a persistent but underappreciated predicament of u. S. Foreign policy. How to manage disagreements with friends and allies. Richard, since october 8th, there have been disagreements between the Biden White House and Prime Minister netanyahu. Officials on record say they believe, at times, netanyahu makes decisions in his own political interests rather than trying to bring a conclusion to the war or bring those hostages home. Tell us more about this predicament and what can be done about it. Its a recurring one. It goes back essentially as long as weve had alliances. Disagreements with the allies during world war ii, with britain and france and israel over the Suez Affair In 56. Go through it. Every decade, there are these things. We just showed ukraine and israel. Okay. So with ukraine, should ukraine have told us about this incursion . They now want before they did it. They did not. Going forward, they want more arms, and it is answer is maybe but under what strategy . Why dont the United States and ukraine sit down and say, okay, wed give you more arms, but here are the understandings. What are the definition of succession . We supported israels right to defend itself after october 7th, but weve come a long way from that. What israel is doing in gaza is arguably counterproductive. The United States has given israel aadvice, and israel rejected the advice. For the most part, weve lived with that. Should we do more independently to support our policy, to push israel harder on putting together a plan for after in gaza . Weve looked the other way for decades as israel has built settlements. Why has the United States done that . Settlements take off the table the possibility of having a Palestinian State and twostate solution. Why are we simply looking the other way . Why dont we have a stronger policy there . We need to be more independent. If our allies arent going to take our interests into account, and often they dont if we simply disagree, why dont we press our views harder . Is there a scenario you could see this white house, the Biden White House, doing exactly that, insisting to ukraine that you need to lead us into where youre going next, especially if theres incursions into russia . Also, insisting to netanyahu that some of the outlines actually happen. Is that something you can see biden putting forth, maybe even after the election, after the Vice President has had her day at the ballot box . Its late in the day and itd probably be too easy for the other government to wait him out. After the election, you have 75 days left of the biden presidency. If it were going to happen, it should have happened months ago. I think itll be a challenge for whoever is the 47th president. We have got allies, in particular, israel. You have questions about what they do with iran. Do we want them to attack iran or not . What about hezbollah, gaza . What about the west bank and so forth, settlements . Ukraine, do we want ukraine to try to liberate crimea militarily . Do we want ukraine to pursue diplomacy . I think whoever is the 47th president , jonathan, is going to have some big, big issues with allies. Also taiwan, what do we want taiwan to do vis a vis china . I dont think it is too late for whoever comes after joe biden. If Benjamin Netanyahu and Mahmoud Abbas became, like, different people tomorrow and decided, okay, time for a Palestinian State, is there enough left for a Palestinian State . When i look at the map, it just looks like worse than swiss cheese, what the israelis would be theoretically leaving to the palestinians. Given the settlements and the roads connecting the settlements and the way that palestinians cant even move around the west bank, let alone between the west bank and gaza. Whats your view on that . Gene, what you suggest is true. Whatever you have to work with now, its incomparably less with what you had to work with a decade ago, two decades, three. In the past when israel has given up territory, vis a vis egypt, say, you have the evacuation of certain settlements. Same thing in gaza, when israel left gaza. I think there would have to be territorial adjustments. Thered have to be compensation for certain stray settlements. I think the concentrated settlement blocks would remain, then youd have territorial compensation for it. All of which is to say, i dont think it is too late for diplomacy. But go back to your first point. Youd need different people. In order to have any negotiation succeed, you need leadership on both sides that, one, is willing, and, two, able to make peace, has the disposition as well as the political restraint. You dont have that. The reason you ultimately had a transition between israel and egypt, they were willing and able to do it. In south africa, you had mandela and declercq willing and able to deal with the end of apartheid. You do not have leadership between israel and either hamas or the Palestinian Authority thats both willing and able. U. S. Diplomats, i dont care how often they get on a shuttle, they simply dont have the counterparts to deal with here. The ceasefire talks continue in cairo. U. S. Officials late last night pushing back against reports that they had hit an impasse but acknowledge gaps still remain. We, of course, will bring you the latest development. Still ahead on morning joe, the Department Of Justice is pushing to revive the classified documents case against donald trump. What special counsel jack smiths team is arguing in a new filing. Plus, democrats in Battleground Georgia are suing the state over controversial, new Election Rules. Well take a look at that legal challenge and why it is so significant ahead of november. Also ahead, former National Security adviser h. R. Mcmaster is the latest Trump Administration official to come out with a new Inside Account of his time working for the former president. He joins the conversation ahead here on morning joe. Well be back in just 90 seconds. Why do couples choose a sleep number smart bed . Can it keep me warm when im cold . Wait, no, im always hot. Sleep number does that. Can i make myside softer . I like myside firmer. Sleep number does that. Your Ideal Firmness and effortless comfort, all night. Can it help us sleep better and better . Please . Sleep number does that. 9 out of 10 couples report better sleep. During our biggest sale of the year, the queen sleep number c2 smart bed is only 999. Plus get free delivery when you add any base. Shop now at a sleep number store near you. You didnt start a business just to keep the lights on. Lucky for you, shopify built the just onetapping, ridiculously fastacting, skyhigh sales stacking champion of checkouts. Businesses that want to win, win with shopify. At the Alzheimers Association walk to end alzheimers, this is why we walk. Theyre why we walk. We walk in the Alzheimers Association walk to end alzheimers because were getting closer to beating this disease. Join us. The Bipartisan Congressional Task force investigating the attempted assassination of donald trump walked the grounds of the rally site and climbed up onto the roof where the shooter was. The tour was led by Task Force Chairman, congressman mike kelly of pennsylvania, and Ranking Member jason crow of colorado. Crow, a veteran of the wars in iraq and afghanistan, said this of the gunmans location. Before congress, i was an army ranger. I served in iraq and afghanistan. You know, one of the fundamental principles you operate is you always secure the high ground or you have eyes on the high ground. So i definitely took note today that there were a lot of lines of sight that appear to have been unsecured that day, that didnt have eyes on or that werent secured. Certainly, at this point, a lot more questions than answers. With every single detail that comes out of this investigation, it looks worse and worse for the Secret Service. Looks worse and worse for the Secret Service, and i imagine well continue to see Congressional Committees press the Secret Service on what their Investigation Continues to yield. Youll remember, first time we saw kimberly cheatle, no longer the head of the Secret Service, but the first time we saw her testify on capitol hill, a lot of the answers she gave lawmakers were, an investigation is ongoing. I dont want to get too much into it. Now, the new director will have to answer all those same questions, and he does not have the benefit of minimal time that she had. More time has elapsed, and there are only more questions. Were now going to see this as one of the key things that congress has left to do on its todo list for this year. Theyre going to, of course, have to do Government Fund l when they come back to town in september. Beyond that, this task force, and potentially another Rival Task Force mostly of trump allies in unofficial capacity, theyre still doing their investigation. But this task force of jason crow, mike kelly, and others has Subpoena Power. They will it has real bipartisan support . Real bipartisan support. Weve never seen, its not just the republicans and democrats that are actually on the task force. I think everyone has pretty widespread concern. In large part, we have only seen Political Violence threats ratchet up over the last five years. Thats a concern for every lawmaker regardless of their party. Yeah. John, if you were in the Harris Campaign, of course, you want that answered, too. The democrats definitely want answers from this investigation, as well. Special counsel jack smiths office asked an Appeals Court to restore the classified documents case against former President Trump. U. S. District judge Aileen Cannon dismissed the indictment last month, claiming smiths appointment as special counsel violated the constitution. In an 81 page brief filed yesterday, the special counsels office argues Attorney General Merrick Garland had Clear Authority to appoint smith to lead that prosecution and that cannon ignored decades of precedent when she decided to toss out the case. Trump has been charged with 40 Felony Counts pertaining to allegations he willfully retained National Defense information at his palm beach estate after he left office. He has pleaded not guilty. Lets see where that one goes, but clearly jack smith is pushing back at those attempts to get this case effectively pushed down the road as long as possible. Not abandoning the hopes, even if slim, to bring this in the next few months. Deciding not to do the mini trial, the presentation of evidence weve heard from legal experts that would sort of put everything in the Public Domain ahead of election day, even if the trial were not. Its certainly still a long shot. Again, this is one of those cases where, both of these cases, this with january 6th as well as the classified documents federal case, that totally hinge upon the results of this election. If donald trump were to win, he can easily advice his Attorney General to to make them go away. Were Vice President harris to win, wed assume they would be revived at some point down the road. Of course, a lot riding on this election for Donald Trumps personal liberty, as well as his political future. Speak of politics, the Democratic Party of georgia, the dnc, and a group of voters are suing the Georgia State Election Board. The new lawsuit has the backing of the harriswalz campaign and focuses on Election Laws passed this month. The measures passed months before election day allow a County Board Member to conduct a, quote, reasonable inquiry into Election Results before they are certified. But the Election Board does not provide a definition on what is considered reasonable. Meaning that any member can theoretically block the certification of an election for any reason they deem fit. Also yesterday, a group including democratic lawmakers called on Georgia Governor Brian Kemp to remove three republican members of the States Election board. The group says the members acted illegally when they voted to approve the new Election Results because the vote was outside of their authority. Kemps office has confirmed that he reached out to the state Attorney General for guidance on whether he even has the power to remove the members. The three Board Members in question are the same three that were praised by name by donald trump at his rally in atlanta earlier this month. Now, we have two things we have to do. We have to vote, and we have to make sure that we stop them from cheating because they cheat like dogs. I dont know if youve heard, but the Georgia State Election Board is in a very positive way. This is a very positive thing, marjorie. Theyre on fire. Theyre doing a great job. Three members. Giannis johnson. Rick jeffries. And janelle king. Three people are all pitbulls, fighting for honestly, transparency, and victory. Theyre fighting. Trump shouting out Marjorie Taylor greene there and the same three Board Members who were also responsible for stripping Secretary Of State Brad Ravns Raffensperger of his chairing the board. Raffensperger is again openly critical of the new Election Rules changes. EuGene Robinson, weigh in here. This seems to be a pretty precarious and even dangerous situation, and perhaps foreshadowing intense, intense legal fights on election day and beyond that could once more imperil this countrys ability to process a fair and free election. Yeah. This could be a real mess if any County Board Member can object to certification of Election Results. You have to assume that some maga members will object if donald trump loses. So, you know, in a crucial swing state. I guess i wont point out that as this enters the courts, a challenge to this change in the Election Rules, this Supreme Court, despite its idealogical makeup, has been very skeptical of election rule changes this close to an election. Thats kind of a principle theyve tried to hold to. If it were to get up to them and, you know, in tact, i think there would be a pretty good chance that it might be this change might be blocked. Who knows where it will be left by the time we get to election day . Thats a real danger. Yeah, a real danger. Well have to see if it is repeated, perhaps, in other states, as well, similar scenarios. Coming up next on morning joe, a Trump Campaign Spokesman Says the book written by our next guest, quote, belongs in the bargain bin of the fiction section. Former National Security adviser h. R. Mcmaster joins us live in studio to respond to that criticism of his revealing, new account of the donald Trump White House. Morning joe will be right back with that. Ok yall we got ten orders coming in. Big orders starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant. Thats a different story. I couldnt slow down. We were starting a business from the ground up. People were showing up left and right. And so did our business needs. The chase ink card made it easy. When you go for Something Big like this, your kids see that. And they believe they can do the same. 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Switch to reliable comcast Business Internet with security and get started for 49. 99 a month. Plus ask how to get up to a 500 prepaid card. Call today shot of the white house at 6 38. 6 39 a. M. In the morning in washington. Security adviser h. R. Mcmaster is out with an assessment of his time in the white house, offering a staunch condemnation of his former boss. In his book titled at war with ourselves, my tour of duty in the Trump White House, mcmaster depicts the current republican president ial nominee as an insecure personality whose need for flattery and approval made him an easy target of foreign adversaries bent on weakening the United States. Mcmaster served as trumps National Security adviser for 13 months until he was fired in 2018. Retired army and Lieutenant General h. R. Mcmaster joins us now. Thank you for being here, sir. Congrats on the book. Lets start with simply what we said before the break. The Trump Campaign has pushed back on this. They said the book should be assigned to the bargain bin of fiction, suggesting nothing in it there is worth paying attention to. Talk to us about what we can find in this book. Your daytoday experiences in his white house. Sure. Hey, i think it is a missed opportunity for the Trump Campaign. You know, theres a lot positive about President Trump in here, especially about his disruptive nature. In my observation, having been on the Receiving End of a lot of policies and strategies developed in washington, it made no sense to me overseas when i was serving in kabul and baghdad. You know, trump disrupted a lot of what needed to be disrupted. But the story in the book is also about how he is so disruptive that he disrupts himself, and he becomes the antagonist in his own story. So this is not, you know this is not a warning about President Trump. This is informing readers about, you know, the president s character and personality, and how that interacts with the real challenges we faced, all of which are live issues today. You know, from the competition with china and russia, irans aggression and use of, you know, this axis of aggressors in the middle east, and the threat to north korea. You can go on. All the issues that were confronting today, we confronted in that first year of the Trump Administration. And this is mainly a story about how i was trying to help a disruptive president disrupt what needs to be disrupted. One of the themes of the book is how trumps inexperience and susceptibility to flattery, in your estimation, weakened u. S. s National Security or position on the world stage. No more so than with vladimir putin, president of russia. As you saw it up close, what do you think that was . Can you explain the nature of that relationship . Yeah. I mean, this is something i really tried hard to explain. At one point, i came home and said, i cant figure this out. Heres how i see it. In some ways, theres a lot of continuity between george w. Bush and his initial approach to putin and barack obama in his initial approve to putin. Both of them were hopeful that, hey, im the one, im the one who can establish a better relationship. I can convince him that, hey, his future is with the west, with europe. You know, maybe ameliorate his behavior and so forth. Trump was under that same delusion. He has great confidence in his own ability to, you know, make a big deal of something. What i told in the book is, hey, i would tell him, this is the best liar in the world, right . He has aspirations. He has objectives in mind that go far beyond anything in relation to us. So we cant try to placate putin. The only thing putin respects is strength, you know . One of the Chapter Titles here is, weakness is provocative. One of the stories in the chapter is my interaction with President Trump, showing him on a big chart i put in front of him in the back room of the oval office, the little dining room there. On the bottom of it were world events, u. S. Actions that portrayed a sense of weakness or irresolution. On the top of it, just following that, was an act of russian aggression. Whether it was denial of service for Cyber Attacks in 2007, the invasion of georgia in 2008, or the first invasion of ukraine in 2014. The point i was making was, mr. President, dont trade off something for putin to hope youll have a better relationship. Act with strength. Thats when he authorized the sale and provision of javelin Weapon Systems to the ukrainians. A lot of the book is, hey, what was it like to serve in the Trump White House . It was really our teams effort to help a disruptive president , you know, disrupt what needs to be disrupted. You know, its a pretty stark assessment of some of his Foreign Policy decisions. From your time in the white house and lets think about what happened since then. Aid to ukraine. He was later impeached over aid to ukraine because he held it back. Sure. Youve seen his comments about kim jongun, his continued flattery about vladimir putin. You saw january 6th. Putting this all together, its not just that donald trump was president. Hes trying to be president again. Yeah. Do you really think that americas National Security interests would be served by another donald trump term . Well, i think thats for every voter to decide. What do you think . You saw it up close. What im saying, jonathan, you know, how do you strike the balance, right, between somebody who does disrupt, you know, some of the policies in washington, and i think a lot of people would agree theres a lot in washington that needs to be disrupted, but also be cognisant of the inconsistency of the president . You mentioned one of the examples. Another example in the book is how i think President Trump put into place for the first time a reasoned and sustainable approach to afghanistan. But then abandoned that and entered into negotiations with the taliban, you know, without the Afghan Government present. He recreated, i think, a lot of the same problems of the Obama Administration and the approach to afghanistan. Hey, i think, jonathan, thats for you and richard, every individual voter to say, okay, based on what you learn in this book, you know, you make your own decision. Im not here as a washed up general, you know, to tell people how to vote. Let me ask you about one individual voter, you. Yeah. You said you wouldnt serve in a trump term. Will you vote for him . Im not going to answer that question. I tell the story in the book. I took the oath of service at age 17 on the plane at west point. I followed George Marshalls example, who has been one of my heros. I read Youth Biographies of him and everything. You know, i think it is really important to have a bold line between the military, even retired military, and partisan politics. Not politics in terms of political competitions and diplomacy and National Security affairs. But, you know, i dont think any american needs, you know, an old general to tell them how to vote. My editor, a great guy, said this book needs to be a warning. Im like, no, i want this book to inform, not to warn. Thats the purpose of the book. H. R. , can you tell us about the time where the president , when President Trump felt really strongly about an issue, you said, mr. President, heres why i dont think you got it quite right. I think you ought to think x, not y. Is there an example of him doing that . There are examples in the book of exactly that. I think sometimes people took the wrong approach with donald trump. There are three types of people. Richard, you can confirm or deny this, right, in any administration. There are people there to serve the elected president , to recognize, hey, this is the president who got elected. What my duty is, give that president the best analysis, give them multiple options, and let him or her decide what the course of action is. There is a second group of people, theyre not there to give the president multiple options. Theyre there to manipulate decisions based on their own agenda, right . Then there is a third group of people who think its their job to protect the country and maybe the world from the president. The problem with the second and third groups is, hey, nobody elected them. If in our country sovereignty lies with the people, theyre undermining the constitution, right . Theyre unaccountable, appointed officials. I saw it as my job to be, and this is one of the Chapter Titles in here, the guardian of trumps independence of judgment. I think we were effective, you know, for a time. I was used up, only lasted 13 months there, you know, but it was effective to give him multiple options. And to start with, hey, mr. President, i think this is your preferred course of action. But if these are our goals and objectives, and we always would have a discussion first, hey, what is it were trying to achieve . Maybe we should consider something else. Then hed evolve his thinking over time. Youre unbelievably distinguished Military Background. Did you have serious conversations with him about the use of the American Military on u. S. Soil, given you know, did you sit down with him and talk about the Insurrection Act and the cost of potentially using the u. S. Military at home . You know, i didnt. I was gone by that time. Richard, by the time of, you know, George Floyds murder, the violent aftermath of that, all of that. I had to make a few phone calls. You know, i think at times, like everything else, right, the title is at war with ourselves because we are at war with ourselves. One of the themes is, hey, thats not only bad for our psyche, right, its bad for governance. Its bad for our confidence in who we are as a people and confidence, as you were talking in the earlier segment, in our Democratic Institutions and processes. So i think what i would hope the book does is help us realize, hey, we all have a stake in arresting the centripetal forces that are tearing us apart. I have stories about how trump says things that are inflammatory, disrespectful, offensive, but it is oftentimes the response to what donald trump says or does is as bad or worse than him. So, hey, lets stop this vortex of vitriol and get to what we can agree on, which is a lot. You know, so i did take a few calls in that period of time and said, hey, this is what i think the president should say. Of course, i dont know if it got to him or not. Certainly he didnt say those things that i think could have brought americans together around more of a consensus. Would it be right to activate the military to stop people from burning down peoples businesses and, you know, in portland or seattle . Yeah, thatd make sense. But the way it was portrayed was just even more divisive, you know. Trump certainly chose the path of divisiveness repeatedly, katty. One of the defining relationships, there was putin, of course, but another defining Foreign Policy relationship for donald trump, which is discussed at length in the book, is with xi jinping with china. It is relationship with china and the pivoting that h. R. Says is one of the Better Things donald trump does. You write about a meeting between then President Trump and chinese president xi jinping. Quote, as trump began to speak, i experienced a wave of apprehension that caused a sinking feeling in my stomach. The president agreed with xi that Military Exercises with south korea were provocative and went on to describe them as a waste of money. Even worse, he seemed to agree with xis suggestion of a return of freeze for freeze. Trump didnt return to the issues id given him on the South China Sea, taiwan, and the senkakus. His response gave the impression of u. S. Ambivalence over countering Peoples Liberation army aggression across the region. When i thought i could get no worse, trump said he would mediate on the senkakus, implying that china had a legitimate claim to be adjudicated. I sent john kelly a letter, xi ate our lunch. Trump walked into the trap. There are great themes in the book, h. R. When you look at a possible second Trump Administration, whatd we learn from the first one, and who do you think there could be who could play the kind of, you know, harnessing the disruptive nature of the president that you tried to play in the First Administration . Well, katty, it does matter who is around the president. We hope the president would appoint good people. There are a lot of good people. Do you think he will . Well, i think in confirmable positions, yes. I mean, i know there are some good people waiting to come help any president. One of the themes in the book, katty, is, you know, hey, listen, i served the Trump Administration and this is not a woe is me book. I was grateful for the opportunity to help the elected president. It was my sixth Commander In Chief id served under as a Military Officer. So i hope that good americans who can make a difference in any Administration Volunteer to serve. Whether its in ununiform, as a diplomat, intelligence official. We need the best, Young American to serve our nation at this critical moment, which richard has written about in a recent Foreign Affairs. It is a critical moment in history for us. I hope thats the theme, katty. Of course, donald trump, the meeting with xi jinping, thats probably not going to surprise a lot of americans, right . He does say without filter a lot of times, and sometimes thats good. Sometimes thats arresting. Sometimes thats damaging. It just depends on, you know, whats on his mind at the time. Yeah, but i hope that the main, you know, thrust of the book and kind of the tenor of the book is that, hey, it was a privilege to serve. This is, you know, a complicated picture, like it is within any administration. I hope america has learned what it was like. I mean, i think its, in many cases, like that story and others, i mean, there are stories that i think are inciteful in terms of the president s character, personality, and how he interacted with the challenges were still facing today. Katty, as you alluded to, thats one of the elements of continuity between the trump and Biden Administrations. I mean, i think theres really very little daylight. 100 . On the need to compete with china, chinas military aggression in the South China Sea were seeing. For hur. For sure. Also the weaponization of the economic model against us. Yeah. You know, i think most of americas allies would agree, actually, with what the former president did on china, what he did with the abraham accords. There were things good in terms of Foreign Policy that came out of the Trump Administration. Lets talk a little about europe and nato. Had an interview with a senior diplomat recently and asked, what would be a good thing coming out of the Trump Presidency . There was 30 seconds of silence and then an embarrassed laugh. Nothing is basically what he said. What do you think in terms of europe and european allies . Increasingly, ive come to think that America First means europe last. What do you think a second Trump Presidency would mean for nato and ukraine and european alliances . Well, you know, i would just tell my european friends, you know, get over it, right . If it is President Trump, just think about it, okay. What are his priorpriorities . I write about these extensively in the book. Its rereciprocity. He used to say, thats my favorite word, reciprocity. Thats reciprocity in trade, barrier of entry into markets and so forth. Also what he wants is burden sharing. Thats another big thing. A lot of European Countries are delivering on that now. They ought to highlight were delivering on it. The person and i told this story in the book, too who was most adept at interacting with President Trump was Prime Minister abe. In japan. He brought a map of the United States with circles that represented the Japanese Investment in those states. So he began to see, okay, yeah, we do have a Trade Imbalance in goods with japan, but there are these other benefits. The number of jobs that were created. So i think, hey, stop wringing hands about it. If it happens, right, President Trump comes in for another term, you know, forge that relationship that Prime Minister abe had with President Trump. Good point. The new book is titled at war with ourselves. My tour of duty in the Trump White House. It is on sale now. Retired general h. R. Mcmaster, thanks for coming in. Thanks, john. Trumps achilles heel, to mock and ridicule him. Well dig into the new piece. Plus, democratic senator chris coons, who was national cochair of President Bidens reelection campaign, declared his support for Kamala Harris at the dnc last week. He joins the conversation in a few minutes. Morning joe is coming right back. Why do couples choose a sleep number smart bed . Can it keep me warm when im cold . Wait, no, im always hot. Sleep number does that. Can i make myside softer . I like myside firmer. Sleep number does that. Your Ideal Firmness and effortless comfort, all night. Can it help us sleep better and better . Please . Sleep number does that. 9 out of 10 couples report better sleep. During our biggest sale of the year, the queen sleep number c2 smart bed is only 999. Plus get free delivery when you add any base. Shop now at a sleep number store near you. If i was injured on a job site id call the barnes firm. Shop now at a sleep number store near you. I wasnt sure what to do. I called the barnes firm. Best call i could have made. Injured on a job site . Call the barnes firm now. Call 1800 Eight Million i had a serious fall. I called the barnes firm. Cathey got me themillion best result possible. Injured on a job site . Call the barnes firm now. The barnes firm, Injury Attorneys call 1800 Eight Million chopper 4 making us look good. A gorgeous shot of lower manhattan. 7 00 a. M. , sun coming up here in new york city. Beautiful, beautiful shot. Welcome back to morning joe. It is tuesday, august 27th. Im Jonathan Lemire, along with u. S. Special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay. Were in for joe, mika, and willie. EuGene Robinson is still with us. Joining the conversation, we now have msnbc contributor, mike barnicle. And member of the New York Times editorial board, mara gay. Katty, before we dive into the headlines again, a quick debrief on what we heard from h. R. Mcmaster and his new book. You know, he said that Donald Trumps favorite word is reciprocity. We should add to that now retribution. It also struck me, mcmaster does paint a pretty vivid picture of the time in the white house, the chaos there, and certainly, you know, highly critical of some parts of trumps Foreign Policy. But i was struck by his message to europe, were trump to be elected again. Yeah. Including as the war in ukraine rages. Message to european allies would be simply, get over it. Yeah, it was basically, suck it up. Look, it sounds like a tough message, but i think theres some validity in that. Because europe cant walk away from america. Whoever is president of the United States of america, europe has to deal with. They have to find a way to deal with a future President Trump if he gets reelected. They may not love it. Of course, theyre going to be concerned about nato. Of course theyre going to be concerned about ukraine. Actually, just taking a playbook from, you know, shinzo abe, the former Prime Minister of japans book, about find things that donald trump wants and likes. Even if its now shinzo abu used to say, you know, entertain him. Have a meeting on a golf course. Serve him hamburgers, not sushi. Literally kind of do what donald trump wants to get what you need out of him. But theyre going to have to deal with him and kind of get over it. Its probably about the best advice you can give europe at the moment. Gene, the other thing i thought was interesting about that conversation is how far he is willing to go and how far he is not willing to go in criticizing donald trump. Yeah. And what is the role of somebody in h. R. Mcmasters position . He called on his kind of Military Background and said, well, its not the role of a Military Officer to say who you should vote for. But i thought that hes trying to kind of thread a needle there i thought. Yeah. I think ill go further. I think theres just a stark contradiction in the position he is taking. I do understand the reluctance and renaissance of retired generals, certainly serving generals, to speak out on politics, what he calls partisan politics. The military, you know, serves whichever party is in office and whichever president is in office, Civilian Control is certainly a hallmark of the way this country has always operated and should always operate. But that said, theres a difference between, you know, partisan politics and the Fie Fieture Future of the nation and National Security. Things that a retired general, i think, should and does care about. On one hand, he says get over it. On the other hand, he details these episodes and incidents that are really frightening. At the very least, unsettling. And question the mans fitness to hold any office, much less be Commander In Chief. And so i dont think theres a tight rope there. I think if thats what youre going to tell us, then you should own up to the fact that thats what youre telling us. Yeah. Mike barnicle, i know you were listening to that conversation. Eager to get your thoughts. Obviously, a decorated military service, and we thank him for that. But should he have gone further and made this book more of a warning about what a second trump term could be . Well, jonathan, first of all, i have not read the book. I have enormous respect for General Mcmaster. He is a brilliant guy. His book on vietnam,duty, is something i think every Military Officer has read. Graduate of west point. Phd from north carolina, chapel hill. I was stunned, stunned at one excerpt verbally that he indicated just during the interview with you with regard to donald trump and vladimir putin. Where donald trump thought he could win his way with putin by offering him a free room at maralago, whatever, that his personality would dominate vladimir putin. Vladimir putin is one of the most dangerous people in the world. And the president of the United States thinking he can win him over with a smile and a meal or whatever donald trump thought was shocking to me, hearing that from General Mcmaster. Weve had other generals. Barry mccaffrey, general john kelly, other generals speak out adamantly about the dangers, the dangers of a second Trump Administration. I thought General Mcmaster sort of toed the line on that, and i was surprised by it. Yeah. We just saw footage there of helsinki. The Illustration Of Trump Being Subserient to putin in the moment, and he praises putin even after the invasion of trump. Speaking of trump, the republican nomination is raising doubts about whether he will participate in next months scheduled debate against Kamala Harris as their campaigns fight over the events ground rules. Nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent Garrett Haake has the very latest. Reporter the trump and Harris Campaig Dueling over next months debate. Now, a new wrinkle. The deal was the same rules. Now all of a sudden, they want a change in the rules because she cant answer questions. Reporter in the last faceoff at the biden campaigns request, microphones were muted while the other candidate was speaking to prevent interruption. Now, the Harris Campaign is asking for the mics to be left on at all times. Trumps campaign objected, but the candidate seeming to acquiesce, taunting the Vice President. Id probably rather have it un. The truth is she is trying to get out of it because she doesnt want to debate. Shes not a good debater, not a smart person. Reporter Vice President harris has been off the trail since her Acceptance Speech last thursday. Sources say shes held at least one mock debate. 75 days to go. Maybe for better and for worse, thats the way i am. That was good. Now we have to move on. Reporter all of it as former President Trump was in battleground michigan, looking to step on any Harris Post Convention bounce. Campaign sources tell nbc news hes planning more aggressive fall travel. While polls show voters give harris the advantage on health care and abortion rights, trump aiming to Hammer Harris on two issues where they show shes vulnerable. The economy and the border. Under Kamala Harris, American Veterans are treated worse, by far, and illegal aliens, have you seen the stay in hotels . We have veterans sleeping on the street. Reporter speaking to a National Guard conference, trump slamming the Vice President over the chaotic withdrawal from afghanistan, where Service Members were killed three years ago. Trump laying a wreath at arlington. The humiliation in afghanistan set off the collapse of american credibility and respect all Around The World. Reporter harris writing of the fallen, my prayers are with their families and loved ones. My heartbreaks for their pain and their loss. Our thanks to Garrett Haake there. Trump refusing to pronounce the Vice President s name correctly. Mara, lets talk about the debate. As we noted earlier, there is a debate over the debate. To be fair, it was the biden teams ground rules that they suggested mics be muted while one candidate was speaking. They didnt want the other to interrupt. Post debate, that was helpful to trump. Biden had a tough night. How do you assess this matchup . It seems trump is looking for ways, if not to get out of the debate, at least to already start working the excuses as to why it may not go well. Thats right. He is soft pedaling. He previously said anytime, anywhere when it was President Biden. Now that its someone he views as more formidable, hes kind of trying to walk that back. I actually think there are some risks here for both these candidates. I mean, i think it is very important the American People get to see these two candidates debate. We havent seen Vice President harris debate. Theres that. But this carries huge risks for donald trump. Like many republicans, he may be starting to realize, you know, trumpism may be popular with 45 of the voting population, but every time he opens his mouth and attacks women, attacks minorities, doesnt pronounce the Vice President s name properly, he may become aggressive the way he did with Hillary Clinton years ago, that is not going to help him. So the more of trump voters see, especially extemporaneously, the less there may be to like. Theres a lot of risks for him, and i think he knows it. Harris is not going to be the same as debating joe biden. Mike barnicle, it does seem like the harris team wants trump to talk as much as possible. As we noted earlier, when he gave his News Conference at bedminster last week, the Harris Campaign promoted it. Be sure to tune in. They thought hed Say Something that would be political damaging. Thats their thought about this debate next month, as well. Donald trump will have to square off with a prosecutor. Trump, you know, may beexcuses, to believe hell back out of the debate and risk being called a coward. Well, i dont disagree with you, jonathan, but what would he fear most, being called a coward for backing out of the debate or the reality within in who knows how he might react in the ring with a black woman who is criticizing him . He could go absolutely haywire like that, just snap and destroy his candidacy in a single second on national tv. Joining us now, democratic senator chris coons of delaware. He is on both the Foreign Relations and the judiciary committees. Senator coons, thank you very much for joining us this morning. A whole lot of things we want to talk about this morning, including the debate about the debates, but i want to start with yesterday, the third anniversary of the withdrawal of American Forces from afghanistan. Youve heard the criticism from donald trump. It was there in our package earlier. Do you feel that there is any better response that Vice President harris and joe biden, indeed, could be giving on this anniversary to the criticism that this was mishandled by the Bidenharris Administration, and theres not been on this anniversary more of an overt expression of remorse from the white house . Look, katty, i was at Dover Air Force base with President Biden when the families of the 13 americans fallen in that tragic incident were there to greet and welcome home their loved ones, their remains. No one is as committed to comforting and supporting and sustaining veteran families in moments of grief and day in and day out than President Biden. The pact act is the most significant investment in veteran health care in american history, something the Bidenharris Administration shepherded through congress and then he signed into law. As general h. R. Mcmaster himself has said, former President Trump bears a fair amount of responsibility for the timing and the type of withdraw we ultimately employed to get out of afghanistan. Im sorry. Im hearing feedback. Forgive me. I do think there is plenty of responsibility for what was a tragic incident. What matters to me is who better respects americas veterans than those who served . As you know, former President Trump recently, shockingly, said that he thought the Congressional Medal Of Honor was not that significant because the folks who earned it had died in action or were all shot up, when comparing a medal he gave to a donor, to a medal earned by americas Service Members for valor and sacrifice. Handled like a pro, by the way, on the feedback. Thank you for doing that. Tell us if you have problems carrying on. Since were on h. R. Mcmaster and something he had, we just had a discussion the beginning of this program just now, im sure you heard, about something he said to americas european allies. Basically, they should get over it, about their fears of donald trump being reelected to a second term. Would that be your advice to americas allies were donald trump to win in november . My advice to the American People is take seriously the fact that Donald Trumps former secretary of defense, National Security adviser, chief of staff, and Vice President have all, in different settings, said he belongs nowhere near the white house again. I understand and respect why our allies Around The World are gravely concerned about what a return of donald trump to the white house would mean. If nothing else, it would certainly mean chaos and unpredictability. He continues to undermine our alliances and our partnerships. His principle focus in talking about nato, which is a vital and Important Alliance that contributes to American Security and prosperity is to criticize the contributions of our nato allies as if, somehow, nato is a Protection Racket rather than a security alliance. And to give really no respect for the enormous progress thats been made in increasing the partnership and the contributions of nato allies under the Bidenharris Administrations leadership. Senator coons, lets turn to the middle east talks still ongoing in cairo. No deal yet for a ceasefire and hostages release. There seems to be both sides dug in. Your assessment here . You know, what needs to be done . Do you feel like both hamas but also israeli Prime Minister netanyahu are putting a deal at the forefront of their agenda, that they want to make this happen . Well, they need to make this happen. Its been 325 tragic days that families, including american families, have been waiting and praying and working for the release of their loved ones. One of the most compelling moments of the Democratic Convention in chicago last week was when john and rachel, the parents of Hersh Goldberg polin, came to the stage and shared as parents their suffering and pain about how long their son has been held captive by hamas. They convey this is not a political point but a humanitarian one. I was encouraged that there was a somber and reflective and emotionally supportive audience given to them by the tens of thousands of folks in the United States united center. Ive met with them many times. I first met with them in telaviv in october of last year. I do think that Prime Minister netanyahu needs to put the very front of his agenda a ceasefire and hostage release, but it is hamas, after all, that launched the attack on october 7th, that continues to hold the hostages, and that has the most to gain from an end to the fighting in gaza. Brett mcgurk stayed back in cairo. The talks have been described as constructive. They have made progress and are now negotiating implementation details. I remain hopeful. Senator coons, we seem to be in an odd moment in political history and present history in this country right now. Theres a president ial Campaign Going on between two candidates, and, yet, we have a sitting president of the United States, joseph r. Biden, who daily, hourly, is dealing with gaza, with the Peace Accords, potential Peace Accords in the middle east, dealing with the war in ukraine, dealing with vladimir putin. My questions to you are, a, have you spoken to the president since he took a few day in california . If so, whats his mood . They cant do you any he thinks about all of the people who anonymously assassinated him verbally in the print media prior to his withdrawal . President biden is focused on moving forward. He has lots to do, as you mentioned, in the remaining months he has to be president. He and the first lady has a robust agenda in their service to the nation after january. The cancer moonshot, investments in womens health, sustaining the critical partnerships that he has led Around The World, The Fight For Freedom in ukraine, the relationship between south korea, japan, and the United States, the quad, aukus. He has led some remarkable security and diplomatic progress in the indopacific, in europe, in the middle east, and in the rest of the world. Frankly, the contrast between President Trump and Vice President harris in their world view and ability to serve as Commander In Chief could not be more stark. I thought the best part of Vice President harris Acceptance Speech in the convention was how she described the challenge and the opportunity in the middle east. I thought she stuck the landing, as youd say in a post olympics world, as she talked about our place in the world, having the most lethal and effective fighting force in our armed forces, the palestinian determination alongside israeli selfdefense and right to exist and right to be at the head of a new partnership that will secure the middle east. So i thought we came out of the convention in great shape. I know that our president , joe biden, is looking forward to the difference that he can make in the remaining months. Im optimistic, given our recent conversations, about how he sees the campaign and the months ahead. All right. Democratic senator chris coons of the great state of delaware, thank you for joining us this morning. Thank you. Still ahead here on morning joe, several controversial rulings have the Supreme Court Approval Rating near record lows. Well go over the high court and the Major Concerns americans have about the justices. Morning joe is coming right back with that. This is clem. Clems not a morning person. Or a night person. Or a. People person. But he is an i can solve this in 4 different ways person. And that person. Is impossible to replace. You need clem. Clem needs benefits. Work with principal so we can help you help clem with a retirement and benefits plan thats right for him. Ldiabetes can serve upd a lot of questions. Like what is your glucose and can you have more carbs . 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[laughs] a home router should never be a home wrecker. Oo this is a good book title. Im calling for a constitutional amendment called no one is above the law amendment. [ applause ] i mean this sincerely, it holds no immunity for crimes a former president committed while in office. The second thing im asking for, weve had term limits for president s of the United States for nearly 75 years. After the truman administration. I believe we should have term limits for Supreme Court justices of the United States, as well. Third, im calling for a binding code of conduct for the Supreme Court. That was President Joe Biden last month laying out his vision for reforming of the Supreme Court. Joining us now, editor at large at news week, tom rogers. And republican strategist susan del percio. Theyre out with a new piece for news week, with the title, supreme concerns about Supreme Court. Susan, well start with you. President biden laid out a pretty ambitious plan for reforming the court. It is not likely to happen anytime soon, but it is a marker. Certainly, there has been growing concern that something needs to be done there. Walk us through some of the arguments you make in the piece. I think the most important thing to look at overall when it comes to the piece is that while their Approval Ratings, the Supreme Courts Approval Rating is so low, it seems like people want to see change to get it back on track. They want to see ethics reforms. They want to see term limits. They want to see the court change. I believe for the better. And so i think when you look at that, there is a little hope. Of course, the countrys divided so the people are divided on a lot of decisions they have made. Tom, only in this new emerson poll, Emerson College poll, only 34 , 34 of respondents give the Supreme Court a positive job Approval Rating. Certainly, some trace it to 2000, bush v gore as the beginning of its decline, and its really accelerated in recent years. What are some possible solutions . Does President Bidens plan make sense to you . Well, there are some key elements that not only make sense to me but have broad support among the American People. Very surprising that when it comes to ethics reform, holding Supreme Court justices simply to the same ethical standards that every other federal judge is held to, 71 agree with that. Only 13 disagree. Huge consensus on that one. His probably most important reform, as susan pointed to, is term limits. Putting forward the notion that 18 years should be the span of any justices term. Thats intended to get at the issue that we had with donald trump, which is the disproportionate impact that a single president can have. In four years, he appointed three justices. Clinton, obama, george w. Bush, each served for eight years and only had two appointments each. So you can really see that, without correcting that somehow, by having staggered terms, youre really not going to get to the point where any individual administration cant create an imbalance on the court, which we have today a huge imbalance with a court largely out of step on key issues that the American Public disagrees with it on. Tom, i wanted to follow up and ask you, its not just an issue, as susan pointed out, of Approval Rating. Its an issue of legitimacy. This is a court with a farright majority that has been appointed, i believe, by president s who did not win the popular vote. Can you talk a little bit about what we look like here in the United States compared to other democracies, western democracies, and is there an issue of legitimacy, too, not just Approval Rating . Well, i think it is very clear when it comes to key social issues, and we hope to have additional Polling Information on this, how people feel about apportion, abortion, how they feel about gun control, issues people feel passionately about, and how it relates to that. Clearly, most democracies do not have entrenched courts that have the ability to be that out of step with public sentiment, as represented by how the majority of the public feels on key issues. The problem we have with reform here is much of it may require a constitutional amendment, unless the reforms thread a needle. For instance, when it comes to creating term limits, Senior Justice Status would have to be taken by justices after a certain point, their 18year terms, because the constitution requires all justices serve for lifetime. We wouldnt be able to impose that on existing justices without violating the constitution and, therefore, the time it would take through term limits is a long one. So the question then becomes, other people look at, well, why dont we appoint more justices to the Supreme Court, something that can be done by statute, not constitution . We hope to have more poll ong on that, as well. That goes to the issues of how quickly can you change the composition of the court. Susan, you know politics. Is this a Campaign Issue for the Harris Campaign . Should it be a Campaign Issue for Vice President harris . Should she be talking about a Supreme Court, do you think . She can peripherally. At the end of the day, think itll move in for next year, given we only have 71 days and there are a lot of issues for the Vice President to tackle. What is important is that it is a great issue to show a will to govern. It could be bipartisan because we see bipartisan support, for example, for ethic reforms. I look at this as something that maybe could start brewing within the house or in the senate with some bipartisanship after the election. All right. The new piece is an important read, online now for news week. Tom rogers and susan del percio, thank you, both, for having here this morning. Coming up on morning joe, a conversation on the rise of book banning in schools and libraries across the country. Well be joined by a librarian from louisiana who is fighting to keep books on the shelves. Thats straight ahead. N . new dove helps repair it. So, if you shave it . dove it new dove replenish your skin after every shave. Why do couples choose a sleep number smart bed . I sleep great now that my side is as firm as my Heart Desires. My Heart Desires soft. New Dove Sleep Number does that. Your Ideal Firmness and effortless comfort, all night. During our biggest sale of the year, save 50 on the sleep number® limited Edition Smart bed and free delivery when you add any base. To my son, ive never been the cool dad. I always wanted to know what hes up to online. 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More than 30 of the fortune 500 use upwork because this is how we work now. Amanda jones, a Louisiana School librarian, in july of 2022, went to a Public Library Board Meeting to speak out against an attempt to ban books. That day, she showed up at that meeting as just a concerned citizen. She didnt say where she worked. She just spoke about the importance of having diverse books. Immediately, she had her work address leaked. People posted nonstop, making accusations about her abusing Young Readers at her library, children shes dedicated 23 years of her life to educating. She started getting Death Threats all for standing up for our right to read. That was Oprah Winfrey praising Louisiana Middle School librarian Amanda Jones Last year for pushing back against efforts to ban books in her hometown. Now, across the country. Amanda joins us now. Shes the president of the Louisiana Association of School Librarians and the author of a new book out today titled, that librarian, the fight against book banning in america. Thank you so much for joining us. I want you to give us a sense of what happened to you and to your life after you stood up in that Public Library Board Meeting and made a speech, saying that louisiana should not be banning books. Well, i just went to my Public Library, where ive been a resident now 46 years, and i just gave a very basic speech about censorship and our right to read, and the right for everyone to be able to see themselves on the shelves of books. I woke up four days late tore a targeted Harassment Campaign that is pretty much still going on today, two years later. The whole community, it seems, turned against me in the blink of an eye. The impression is that weve slightly moved through the worst of the book banning movement, and i know that even in louisiana, several Book Banning Bills have been defeated. Then i was surprised to look at the statistics which showed there have been more than 4,000 instances of book banning in the first half of the 2023 2024 school year. That was more than in the entire previous year. Where are we . Is it getting better, or is it getting worse . Its such a local fight. These fights are fought at the local level. Local Public Library boards. In some places, it is getting better. Some places, it is getting worse. It kind of depends on where you live. Amanda, maya gay here from the New York Times. My mother is a teacher, and so i just have such enormous respect for the work you do. Its just hard to see an educator vilified in this way for the work. But i just wanted to ask you, you know, millions of americans are living in especially but not only Rural Communities across the United States where theyre having these local fights youre talking about. Could you talk a little bit about what parents, educators, and concerned citizens can do in their own communities if there are book bans that are being proposed . What do you recommend . Well, the first thing i recommend is to pay attention. Because these things tend to sneak in. You need to be paying attention. Check your local Library Board and school board agendas. Stream the meetings or attend the meetings. But speak out if youre able. Not everyone is able, but if you can, speak out. Spread the truth. There are so many lies about books and authors and librarians. You know, dont share the lies. Make sure youre speaking up for the truth. I always say, do it with kindness. Because the people attacking books and librarians are very mean, and we dont want to set bad examples for kids watching. Always do it with kindness and empathy. Amanda, im sure you more than most of us realize and know and live with the fact that a lot of children dont have iphones and ipads, dont have access to the things that the internet brings people. And library could be, and in very, very many cases is like a Travel Bureau for a child. Exciting his imagination or her imagination through books. Taking them any place in history at any moment in history. Introducing them to people and characters and situations that they only could dream of. Could you speak to the gift that a library, a Public Library is to children . Public libraries offer so much for children. You know, i live in a somewhat rural area, and people can go to the library to get the wifi access, to do research and schoolwork and homework and homework help. You know, dr. Bishop said books are windows to sliding glass doors. They can save lives. They can introduce you to other worlds you wouldnt have been able to go to. Especially in areas like mine where people cant travel. The kids can travel through The World Of Books and learn about people like themselves but also learn about other people that are out there. There are people out there from all walks of life that maybe children in Rural Communities will never be able to meet, but they can through books. Extremely well said. Cannot be overstated enough just how important these books are. And this new book is titled that librarian, the fight against book banning in america. Amanda jones, thank you so much for being with us this morning. Thank you for having me. Next up here, well bring you a roundup from across major league baseball, including the player who made history by competing for two teams in the same game. Well explain how that possibly happened when we come right back. Ok yall we got ten orders coming in. Big orders starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant. Thats a different story. I couldnt slow down. We were starting a business from the ground up. People were showing up left and right. And so did our business needs. The chase ink card made it easy. When you go for Something Big like this, your kids see that. And they believe they can do the same. Earn unlimited 1. 5 cash back on every purchase with the chase Ink Business Unlimited Card from chase for business. Make more of whats yours. One ball, two strikes. Its deep left center. Up against the wall. The latest yankee to rob the nets, and thats a double play at first base. Aaron judge with a leaping grab in center field to take away a wouldbe homer for the washington nationals. Then doubling up at the plate. Guy doing it with his bat and the glove. The home run leader added his 1,000s career hit, just there, and the yankees beat the nats, 52. A subplot, though, juan sotos return to washington. You can see here that d. C. Fans there cheered for soto, saying they wanted him back. Also, the nats owner was on the field talking to soto pregame. There have been rumors he loved his time in washington. There are rumors that washington will be a suitor this time around. Setting that aside for a moment, lets go to Division Leaders in philadelphia. Phillies and the astros tied in the bottom of the tenth. Phillies with runners on first and second and another former nationals player at the plate. Here we go. On the ground, base hit right side here comes schwarber around third. Hes done it yet again. Bryce harpers 12th career walkoff gives philadelphia a 32 vivictory. Doing it against a tough lefty. Joel embiid in the crowd. EuGene Robinson, we dont mean to be rubbing salt in the wound. Yes, you do. Well, okay, maybe a little. Youre a nats fan. These are, i mean, two of the brightest alums of that team, soto and harper in the spotlight. Harper, you know, having another terrific season. Yeah. But react to that. This is a team that can afford its stars to stop paying them, but do you have a sense, though, theyve got young talent in place, that could change . Do you think theyll make a run of soto this offseason . I sure hope so. I mean, just you know, youll have to pay him a whole lot of money, but hes a whole lot of player. I mean, he is such a great hitter. And a great guy. Washington loves him. We still think of him as ours. Of course, we thought that of bryce harper, as well, for a long time. Please, please sign juan soto. Pay him whatever he wants. Also, aaron judge making that catch. I mean, come on you had to show that . This guy is 67, 280 pounds. Hes Making A Leaping Catch at the wall. Now were showing it again. I know. What are we doing there . Youre killing me. Youre killing me. This is the decision being made in the control room. Blame yankee fan alex. I have nothing to do with it. Soto will likely sign probably the second biggest contract ever. I dont know if hell beat ohtanis number, but hell come real close. Meanwhile, lets go to boston now. Danny jansen became the first player in Major League History to appear in the same game for both teams. That happened when he took the field for the red sox yesterday in the resumption of a yesterd in the resumption of a rain delay contest he started for the toronto blue jays. He was up to bat when the game was suspended by rain in june. The catcher, a blue jay then, traded to boston last month and then behind the plate when the game resumed yesterday afternoon. The blue jays beat the red sox 41 in the makeup game and then beat them again in the nightcap 73. Red sox now 1422 since the allstar break and sits five games behind the minnesota twins. If the al started, Final Wild Card spot. Seems to object slipping away here. Dangy jansen, fun, but, frankly, also the only thing red sox fans had to cheer about in a long time. Seems to be. Seems to be slipping away. Okay, slipping away. It is slipping away. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, you know, usually in situations like this fans, true Baseball Fans say, well, they gave it a good run. Its time to play the kids. If you look at the lineup, the red sox have been playing the kids since april 15. They put up a good fight. They got the best manager in baseball for my money, alex cora. Half the washington fans with the exception of Gene Robinson think soto might be with the nationals. They havent realized he left three years ago. Wow. A broad side against the entire fan base. That is a tough morning. Mike is unhappy with the red sox. And i will say this. There was a time when the yankees wanted to pay someone. They did. This yankee Ownership Group seems to operate with a budget. I dont know soto, its a foregone conclusion he is playing. I put the yankees as the favorites to retain his services. Katty, other headlines if you like . I want gene to do my Salary Negotiations if he is going do it like he just did for soto. Pay me what i want. Time for a look at other stories making headlines beyond sports. Travis king, the u. S. Army private who Ran Into North Korea last year, will plead guilty to five of the 14 offenses with which he was originally charged, including one count of desertion as part of a plea deal. He ran across the Demilitarized Zone following an imprisonment by south korea over allegations that included assault and damaging public property. North korea held him until september. A rare but deadly disease spread by mosquitoes has ten massachusetts counties on high alert prompting some towns to close parks and limit outdoor activities. Earlier this month state Health Officials confirmed the first human case of the eastern equine encephalitis. Ten communities are designated at high or critical risk for the virus for which there is no vaccine or medicine to treat it. And the front man of oasis confirmed they would put aside a 15year feud to reunite for a string of shows next year. The Comeback Tour will include four nights at Wembley Stadium in london. The announcement comes ahead of the 30year anniversary of the release of the album definitely maybe. The fastest Selling Debut Album In Uk History at the time. I hope they have done some good sibling therapy. Coming up, alex gibney with a look at his documentary on the making of the iconic hbo trauma the sopranos ahead on morning joe. Well be right back in just a minute. A minute sure, im a paid actor, and this is not a real company, but there is no way to fake how upwork can help your business. Search talent All Over The World with over 10,000 skills you may not have in house. More than 30 of the fortune 500 use upwork because this is how we work now. When migraine strikes, youre faced with a choice. Ride it out with the tradeoffs of treating . Or push through the pain and symptoms . 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Xfinity mobile was designed to save you money and gives you access to wifi speeds up to a gig. So you get high speeds for low prices. Better than getting low speeds for high prices. Right, bruce . Jealous . Yeah, look at that. Honestly, someone get a helmet on this guy. Get a free unlimited line for a year when you buy one unlimited line. Plus, get up to 800 off google pixel 9 phones. Switch today we agreed to the same rules. I dont know. Doesnt matter to me. I probably have it the agreement is it would be the same as it was last time. In that case, it was muted. I didnt like it the last time, but it worked out fine. Ask biden how it worked out. It was fine. And i think it should be the same. We agreed to the same rules. Same rules. Same specifications. And i think thats probably what it should be. They are trying to change it. The truth is they are trying to get out of it because she doesnt want a debate. She is not a good debater. She is not a smart person. She doesnt want to debate. I think this issue is resolved unless donald trump allows his handlers to overrule him. We will have a debate between the two candidates with live microphones where both will be able to lay out their vision where they want to take this country. I watched this weekend. Its the worst of all networks. When i look at the hostility, why am i doing it . Lets do it with another network. We are thinking about it. They also want to change the rules. The deal was we keep the same rules. Now they want to change the rules because she cant answer questions. Why not debate her . We will wait. Because they already know everything. Oh, trumps not doing the debate. Same thing they are saying now. Right now i say why should i do a debate . I am leading in the polls. Everybody knows me. I looked at the hostility of that, why am i doing it . Yes, thats a chicken noise. The Harris Campaign trolling the Trump Campaign over the rules for their president ial debate. The harris team now wants the microphones to be live all the different different from junes debate between President Biden and donald trump. Trumps campaign now saying it wants the same rules as that atlanta debate, though you just heard the former president say of the mics that he would rather have it probably on. And thats where we begin. Good morning. Welcome to morning joe. It is tuesday, august 27th. Im Jonathan Lemire with u. S. Special correspondent for bbc news katty kay. We are in this morning for joe, mika, and willie. We have euGene Robinson. Richard haass. He is author of the weekly newsletter home away. And we have with us richard haasss new beard. And ali vitali as well. Katty, this is where we are. A debate over a debate. Lets remember the trump team for a while was upset with the current plan. September 10 on abc trump proposed there would be debates on fox, he wanted multiple debates. Some from the trump team that suggested it that joe biden still had to debate, that was the original agreement. Of course, it was not. It was simply the republican nominee versus the democratic nominee. Now there is a back and forth over microphones and the harris team is looking to change how things are done now compared to where they were in june. What do we think . Will we see them square off in a couple weeks in philadelphia . How much of this is brinksmanship, how much is the Trump Campaign trying to get what they want . Suggesting maybe possibly, maybe not they might actually pull out of the debate and, therefore, they can perhaps get the terms as they want them and get the microphones kept off. It seemed to work better for donald trump or maybe that was just the fact that joe biden was in such a bad way that seemed to work better for donald trump. At this point knowing its almost impossible to judge what trump wants. You can tell there is some disquiet in the trump people about this debate, whether about the rules or the debate happening at all, and yet the harris team is prepping as we know at the moment and they seem to want to go ahead with the debate. If you had to put your vast savings somewhere, is this debate happening . Nowhere near this contest. In the chicken sound. Yes. That is going to be a good investment. I think we are going to have a debate about the debate because trump is so unhappy and unsettled around the idea that joe biden is no longer his opponent. But i think the debate has to happen in large part because the onus is on trump to prove that he has what it takes to go forward as the nominee for the Republican Party and to prove that he has the credentials, the acuity, mental capacity and to overcome the age questions that joe biden had to overcome and ultimately did not in the last debate. Shying away over some rules things about mics on or off is something that the Harris Walz Campaign can run with and say trump is too scared to debate. The fact that they want the mics on speaks to the strategy they might be trying to employ. This idea she thinks that if you continue to poke at him, he will eventually erupt on a hot mic or not and show the kind of anger that he can present that wont look president ial, not that thats stopped people from voting for him before. It was the biden team last time around that asked to have the microphones turned off. They felt that would be to their advantage. They felt it would give them a more effective debate compared to that disastrous one in 2020. Thats the benefit to donald trump doing a debate with Kamala Harris at this stage . I mean, i know if he pulls out he will be called a coward. Actually, from his point of view, would that be preferable in going into a debate with somebody who is a seasoned prosecutor and performing so well as a candidate at the moment . He may have trepidation about that. But i think he believes and i think his team believes he needs to have this debate. Lets be clear. The Harris Campaign is trying to change the rules, right . I mean, three weeks in, two weeks ago, no, we are sticking with the rules that were agreed, you know, for the biden debate, its going to be september 10, its going to be abc, same rules, and now they are saying, well, but we want to change this rule. They are doing that because they can. Because at this point it looks to me as if donald trump believes he needs this debate more than Kamala Harris does. She has had the momentum. She has caught up and in most polls passed him in the national polls. She is looking much better in the swing state polls. And she has been in the news. And she had Better Television ratings for her convention than he did. Thats probably the thing that is driving him craziest. So i think that harris, the campaign is messing with trump i think and his campaign at this point but making this demand. I think in the end there will be a debate. I think harris is confident of her ability to win a debate and i think trump feels he needs it. This is the latest example of this classic genre where the Trump Campaign says one thing and trump gets in front of a camera and completely under mines it which we have seen for almost a decade. Richard, to the points just made, at the moment this race is very, very close, but harris has momentum. Trump probably feels he is losing a little bit. The candidate behind the polls usually wants the debate. And i also think its clear part of the harris Team Strategy is promoting Donald Trumps ability to talk. Lets remember last week when he gave one of his News Conferences, it was in bedminster, new jersey, the Harris Campaign was advertising, tune in, watch donald trump, because they think the more he talks americans will see he is not qualified, not fit to go back to office. We know that harris has had both in the senate and other debates kind of viral moments she has, like, you know, i am speaking, like, they sell tshirts on it when someone tries to interrupt her. How do you see this playing out . You know, i think trump needs the debate, but there is a way for harris to solidify her hold on had race, too . I think its risky for donald trump to debate. Also risky for him not. He wants to say this about certain issues, immigration. Just yesterday he was talking about the afghanistan debacle despite his own role in it, trying to put Kamala Harris on the defensive, on food prices. He has reasons to want the debate. Look, i think gene has it about right. Traditionally, the person who is not winning sees it as a useful sort of thing. I dont think either could be confident that without the debate they have got this in the bag. Not even close. So i actually think both sides in their own way kind of want the debate because there is a chance to put the points on the board. So my sense is both sides will want it. If i were advising the Harris Campaign, dont get hung up over the ground rules. If you think you are going to win the debate, then have at the end of the day, jonathan, if this is an election about donald trump, he is going to lose. And if its a referendum on him. So, you know, thats the opportunity for the Harris Campaign essentially to use this. The debate over the debate. We reckon this will continue until september 9 or something. Okay. More than 200 republicans who worked for three of the most recent gop nominees prior to former President Trump are now endorsing Vice President Kamala Harris. Yes, the democrat. In a letter, the 238 republicans, which include staffers from former president george w. Bushs white house and senators john mccain and mitt romneys president ial campaigns urge more moderate republicans and independents to, quote, take a brave stand once more. The group builds on a smaller set of about 150 republicans who pledged to support thencandidate biden back in 2020. And it comes after a Democratic Convention that included conservatives like former congressman Adam Kinzinger speaking to common values that transcend party. The letter further states, quote, of course we have plenty of honest idealogical disagreements with Vice President harris and governor walz. Thats to be expected. The alternative is simply unten lk. At home another four years of Donald Trumps chaotic leadership this time focused on advancing the dangerous goals of project 2025 will hurt rave everyday people and waken our sacred institutions. Richard, which are the republicans who have not stood up yet who served in the Trump Administration, who could actually make a difference in terms of persuading those very few unpersuadable voters who are left, you know, do you expect any more of them to stand up between now and november . There is the former Vice President who has certain physical and political incentive to stand up given how he was do you think he is going to do it . No. Look, i think if people were going to stand up, they have had now, shall we say, several years to do it. So i think you know, several people simply i always wonder at this point, you know, disagree with me if you will, how much of a difference it will make. Its not going to shake trumps base. I am not sure a lot of these people would necessarily influence the independents or a small number of voters in swing states. So it will be interesting to see. I find it you know, its fascinating how many people who work with him most closely, know him best, have come out against him. That to me is a stunning indictment. Yeah, i mean, no questions those who know him the best decided not to back him, eugene. Tim miller, our friend from msnbc applauded him. Where were the rest . Some have spoken out against him privately. Where was john kelly, rex tillerson, where was mike pence, where was george w. Bush, where was liz cheney . The list goes on and on. People have made it clear they disagree with donald trump t they would never vote for him again. There is always Something Holding them back to take the center stage to forcibly not Justin Herbert denounce trump but back harris. Do you see that hanging . Does it matter . I dont see it changing. If every prominent republican who inwardly secretly despises donald trump and thinks he is dangerous for the country and the world were to and spoke at the democratic con skrengs there wouldnt be any room for democrats to speak, you know . Its not like there is a shortage of these people. Its clear at this point, after years, that many of them are not going to come out. They are going to remain in exile or in the closet, i guess, and i dont does it make a difference that this group came out . I think just very marginally. I think in so far as they are trying to create a Permission Structure for establishment Republican Voters who are who really dont want to vote for either trump or harris to just go ahead and vote for harris, i dont think there are necessarily a lot of people who are going to be pushed off that fence to actually voting for harris, but, you know, tight election, and so small numbers can make a big difference. I think there are two ways i have seen republicans in this trump era go at the former president while also trying to preserve republicanism in the way that they remember it. You have people like Adam Kinzinger taking the outside approach, appearing at a Democratic Convention, trying to create the Permission Structure to patriotly maintain time as a conservative but vote for Kamala Harris and then people like mike pence, liz cheney, other names we mentioned here who are never going to come out andy avow their party in large part because they want to stay within it to carry the future torch of it when trump, if trump is at the end of his career, whether in 2024, some point in the future. There are two different ways they are trying to go about this. I dont think we will see them come out and endorse the democrats and say i am no longer a republican. They want to stay within the party for a reason, carry that tore much forward. The voice i would like to hear is george w. Bush. I think that is a voice that could make some sort of a difference. I dont know that any of the others could. Its possible that george w. Bush could do. Okay. So lets turn overseas. Russia launched what is described as the biggest attack on ukraine in weeks. Nbc news correspondent Erin Mclaughlin has the latest. Reporter in kyiv a Russian Missile strikes near a critical dam, stunning ukrainian soldiers, part of russias latest attempts, the ukrainian president says, to terrify. Russia launched more than 120 missiles and drones, he says, killing four at damaging civilian infrastructure, triggering rolling blackouts in the capital and sparking international condemnation. We condemn in the strongest possible terms russias continued war against ukraine in its efforts to plunge the ukrainian people into darkness. Reporter the attack days after ukraine marked independence. With a some better ceremony in the capitol. They woke to the sound of the of explosions and took shelters. Metro stations once again doubled as safe havens. Within hours life returned to normal as the fighting rages on and Ukrainian Commanders braced for a long war. We fight for our freedom. Reporter two years ago we met this colonel shortly after his men pushed the russians out of the area around kharkiv. Since then, he fought in the battle for bakhmut. The last time we met you told me something that stuck with me, that you were fighting for your little boy. Yeah. Reporter so he didnt have to . Yeah. Reporter when your son becomes a man, do you think this war will still be going . Maybe, yeah. But thats not very effective. Not very active phase, but i think, yeah, it will be. That was nbcs Erin Mclaughlin with that report. Meanwhile, negotiations continue in cairo this week for a ceasefire and hink release deal in gaza. According to White House National security spokesperson john kirby, discussions will continue for the next few days. One issue to be tackled includes how many hostages may be exchanged, their identities and pace of release. This comes after an Intense Exchange between israel and hezbollah this weekend that stoked fears of a wider regional war. The Washington Post citing officials and analysts reports the exchange was a facesaving moment for both sides. Allowing them to step back had from the edge of a wider conflict, letting hezbollah claim vengeance and Israel Security in their apparatus. Richard, the trouble with allies, America Needs a playbook for difficult friends, you write that the tensions with israel over the past year are merely one example of a persistent but underappreciated predicament of u. S. Foreign policy. How to manage disagreements with friends and allies. This, obviously, since basically october 8th there have been disagreements between the Biden White House and Prime Minister netanyahu. We have had biden officials on record saying they believe that at times netanyahu makes decisions in his own political interests rather than trying to bring a conclusion to the war or bring those hostages home. Tell us more about this predicament and what can be done about it. Its a recurring one. It goes back as long as we have had alliances, disagreements with the allies during world war ii, britain and france over the suez affair. Go through every decade, there are things. We showed ukraine and israel. Okay. So with ukraine, should the ukraine told us about this incursion before they did it . They did not. Going forward they want more arms. The answer is maybe. Under what strategy . Why dont you the United States and ukraine sit down, okay, we will give you more arms but here are the understandings, what is our definition of success. With israel we supported israels right to defend their self after october 7th. We have come a long ways and a lot of what israel has done in gaza is counterproductive but the United States gave israel advice, they have rejected the advice and we lived with that. Should we have done more independently to support our own policy, push israel harder on putting together a plan for after this gaza, where we looked the other way for decades as israel has built settlements. Why is the United States done that . What settlements do is take take off the table the possibility of a Palestinian State and a twostate solution. Why are we looking the other way . Why dont we have a stronger policy there . I am arguing we need to be more independent. If our allies dont take our interests into account, why dont we press our views harder . Is there a scenario you could see this white house, the Biden White House doing exactly that . Insisting to ukraine that you need to read us in as to where you are going next, especially if there are incursions in russia and more importantly insisting to netanyahu that those conditions you outlined actually happened, could you see biden putting forth maybe its even after the election after the Vice President has had her day at the ballot box . It would be too easy for the government to wait them out. You know, after the election you have 75 days left of the biden presidency. I think it should have happened months ago. It will be a challenge for who is ever the 47th patient. We have allies, in particular israel, look at the question of what they do about iran. Do we want israel to attack iran . What about hezbollah . What about gaza . What about the west bank and settlements . To we want ukraine to lab rate crimea militarily . Do we want ukraine to pursue diplomacy . Whoever is the 47th president is going to have some big, big issues with allies, also taiwan. What do we want taiwan to do visavis china . I think this will come front and center. Probably too late for joe bidens president sy. I dont think its too late for whoever comes next. Richard, so if Benjamin Netanyahu and Mahmoud Abbas became different people tomorrow, yeah, time for a Palestinian State, is there enough left for a Palestinian State . When i look at the map, it looks like worse than swiss cheese what the israelis would be theoretically leaving to the palestinians given the settlements and the roads connecting the settlements and the way that palestinians cant even move around the west bank, let alone between the west bank and gaza. Whats your view on that . What you suggest is true. Whatever you have to work with now, its incomparably less than a decade ago, two decades, three. In the past when israel gave up territory visavis variant, say, or the evacuation of settlements, same thing in gaza when israel left gaza. I think there would have to be territorial adjustments, compensation for certain stray settlements. I think the concentrated settlements blocks remain and then territorial compensation for it all of which is to say i dont think its too late for diplomacy. You need different people. In order to have any negotiation succeed you need leadership on both sides that one is willing and, two, able to make peace, has the disposition and the political you dont have that. The reason you had transition between israel and egypt, you had sadat and began. And south of a, mandela and de klerk willing and able to deal with the end of apartheid. You dont have leadership between israel and either hamas or the Palestinian Authority that is willing and able. So u. S. Diplomats, i dont care how often they get on a shutting, they simply dont have the counterparts to deal with it. And the ceasefire talks continue in cairo. U. S. Officials last night pushing back against reports they hit an impasse, but acknowledge gaps remain. We will bring you the latest. Still ahead on morning joe, the Department Of Justice is pushing to revive the classified documents case against donald trump. What special counsel jack smiths team is arguing. And democrats in Battleground Georgia are suing the state over controversial new Election Rules. Well take a look at that legal challenge and why its so significant ahead of november. Also ahead, former National Security advisor. R. Mcmaster the latest trump official to come out with an Inside Account of his time working for the former president. He joins the conversation ahead here on morning joe. We will be in just 90 seconds. We will be in just 90 seconds. Sleep number does that. Thank you. During our biggest sale of the year, save 50 on the sleep number® limited Edition Smart bed and free delivery when you add any base. 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The Bipartisan Congressional Task force investigating the attempted assassination of former President Trump toured the location of the shooting yesterday. They walked the grounds and climbed up on to the roof where the shooter was. The tour was led by Task Force Chairman congressman mike kelly of pennsylvania and Ranking Member jason crow of colorado. Crow, a veteran of the wars in iraq and afghanistan, said this of the gunmans location. Before congress i was on army ranger, serve inside iraq and afghanistan. A fundamental principle you operate, you always secure the high ground or have eyes on the high ground. So i definitely took note today that there were a lot of lines of sight that appear to have been unsecured that day that didnt have eyes on or that werent secured and certainly at this point a lot more questions than answers. With every detail that comes out of this investigation it looks worse and worse for the Secret Service. It looks worse and worgs for the Secret Service and i imagine we will continue seeing Congressional Committees press them on what their Investigation Continues to yield. The first time we saw kimberly cheater, no longer the head of the Secret Service, testify on capitol hill a lot of the answers she gave lawmakers an investigation is ongoing, i dont the to get into. The new director doesnt have the benefit of minimal time. More time elapsed. There are only more questions. We are going to see this as one of the key things that congress has left to do on its todo list this year. They have to do Government Funding in september. Beyond that, this task force and potentially a Rival Task Force of trump allies in an unofficial capacity are doing an investigation. This task of jason crow and mike kelly has Subpoena Power has real bipartisan support . Yes. We have seen its not just the republicans and democrats that are actually on the task force. I think everyone has widespread concern in large part because we have only seen Political Violence threats ratchet up the last five years. Thats a concern for every lawmaker regardless of their party. In the Harris Campaign, of course, you want that answered, too. So the democrats definitely want answers from this investigation as well. Special counsel jack smiths office has asked an Appeals Court to restore the classified documents case against former President Trump. U. S. District judge Aileen Cannon dismissed the indictment last month claiming smiths appointment as special counsel violated the constitution. The special counsels office argues the Attorney General had Clear Authority to appoint senate to lead that prosecution and that cannon ignored decades of precedent when she decided to toss out the case. Trump has been charged with 40 Felony Counts pertaining to allegations he willfully retained National Defense information at his palm beach estate after he left office. He has pleaded not guilty. Lets see where that one goes. Clearly, jack smith pushing back at the attempts to get the case pushed down the road. Not abandoning the hopes, even if slim, to bring this in the next few months, deciding not to do the minute eye trial that would sort of put everything in the Public Domain ahead of election day. Its a long shot. This is one of those cases where both of these cases, this and january 6th as well as the classified documents federal case, that totally hinge upon the result of this election, that if donald trump were to win, he could easily advise his Attorney General to make them go away. Vice president harris wins, whoa would assume they would be revived down the road. Lot riding on this election for Donald Trumps personal liberty among as well as his political future. Coming up, the Harris Campaign calls Donald Trumps economic plan a ticking time bomb. 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The Democratic Party and a group of voters are suing the Georgia State Election Board. The new lawsuit has the backing of the Harris Walz Campaign and focusing on two newly enacted Election Rules. Passed just months before election day allow a County Board Member to conduct a, quote, reasonable inquiry into Election Results before they are certified. But the Election Board does not provide a definition on what is considered reasonable, meaning that any member can theoretically block the certification of an election for any reason they deem fit. Also yesterday a group including democratic lawmakers called on Georgia Governor Brian Kemp to remove three republican members of the States Election board. The group says the members acted illegally when they voted to approve the new Election Results because the vote was outside of their authority. Kemps Office Confirmed that he reached out to the state Attorney General for guidance on whether he even has the power to remove the members. The three Board Members in question are the same three praised by name by donald trump at his rally in atlanta earlier this month. Now we have two things we have to do. We have to vote and we have to make sure that we stop them from cheating, because they cheat like dogs. I dont know if you have heard, but the Georgia State Election Board is in a very positive way. This is a very positive thing, marjorie. They are on fire. They are doing a great job. Three members, janis johnson, rick jeffries, and janel king, three people are all pitbulls fighting for honesty, transparency, and victory. They are fighting. Trump shouting out Marjorie Taylor greene and the same three members responsible for stripping Secretary Of State Brad Raffensperger of his power that chair the elections board. Brad raffensperger who rejected trumps efforts to overturn georgias election in 2020 is openly critical of the Election Rules changes. EuGene Robinson, weigh in here. This seems to be a pretty precarious and even dangerous situation and foreshadowing perhaps intense, intense legal fights on election day and beyond that could once more up pearl the countrys ability to process a fair and free election. This could be a real mess if any County Board Member can object to certification of Election Results. You have to assume that some maga members will object if donald trump loses. So in a crucial swing state. Now, i guess i will point out, as this now enters the courts, that a challenge to this change in the Election Rules, this Supreme Court, despite its idealogical makeup, has been very skeptical of election rule changes this close to an election. Thats kind of a principle they add here to. So if it were to get up to them, you know, intact, i think there would be a pretty good chance that it might be this change might be blocked. But who knows where it will be left by the time we get to election day, and thats a real danger. Yeah, a real danger. We will see if its repeated perhaps in other states as well. Coming up next on morning joe, a Trump Campaign Spokesman Says the book written by our next guest, quote, belongs in the bargain bin of the fiction section. Former National Security advisor. R. Mcmaster joins us live to respond to that criticism of his revealing new account of the donald Trump White House. Morning joe will be right back with that. [coughing] copd hasnt been pretty. Its tough to breathe and tough to keep wondering if this is as good as it gets. But trelegy has shown me that theres still beauty and breath to be had. Because with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy keeps my airways open and prevents future flareups. And with one dose a day, trelegy improves lung function so i can breathe more freely all day and night. Trelegy wont replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. Tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high Blood Pressure before taking it. 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Former National Security advisor advisor h. R. Mcmaster is out with a sobering assessment of his time serving in the Trump White House, offering a staunch condemnation of his former boss. In his new book, which bears the title at war with ourselves, my tour of duty in the Trump White House, mcmaster depicts the current republican president ial nominee as an insecure personality whose need for flattery and approval made him an easy target of foreign adversaries bent on weakening the United States. He served as trumps National Security advisor for 13 months until he was fired in 2018. H. R. Mcmaster joins us now. Thank you for being here. Congrats on the book. Lets start with what we said before the break. The Trump Campaign pushed back on this, said the book should be assigned to the bargain bin of fiction, suggesting that nothing in it there is worth paying attention to. Talk to us about what we can find in this book, your daytoday experiences in his white house. Sure. I think its a missed opportunity for the Trump Campaign because there is a lot of positive about President Trump in here, especially about his disruptive nature. My observation having been on the Receiving End of a lot of policies and strategies in washington made no sense overseas when i was serving in kabul and in baghdad. And trump disrupted a lot of what needed to be disrupted. The story of the book is also about how he is so disruptive that he disrupts himself and becomes the antagonist in his own story. This is not a warning about President Trump. This is informing readers about the president s character and personality, how that interacts with the real challenges that we faced, all of which are live issues today, from the competition with china and russia, irans aggression and use of, you know, use of this axis of aggressors in the middle east and the threat from north korea, venezuela, all the issues we are confronting today we confronted in the first year of the Trump Administration. This is a mainly a story how i was trying to help a disrupt president disrupt what needed to be disrupted. His inexperience and hubris and susceptibility to flattery weakened the u. S. , no more so with vladimir putin, president of russia. As you saw it up close, what do you think that was . This is something i tried hard to explain in the book. I say, i came home, hey, i cant figure this out. But here is how i see it. I see in some ways there is a lot of continuity between george w. Bush and his initial approach to putin and barack obama and his initial approach it to putin. Both were hopeful that, hey, im the one. Im the one who can establish a better relationship. I can convince him that his future is with the west, its with europe. And maybe ameliorate his behavior, so forth. Trump was on to that same delusion. Great confidence in his own ability to make a big deal with somebody. I told the story in the book, i would tell this is the best liar in the world. Right . He has aspirations, he has objectives in mind to go far behind anything in relation to us. We cant try to placate putin. The only thing that putin respects is strength, you know . And so one of the Chapter Titles here is weakness is provocative. And one of the stories in that chapter is my interaction with President Trump showing him on a big chart i put in front of him in the back room of the oval office in the little dining room there. On the bottom were world events, u. S. Actions that portrayed a sense of weakness or irresolution. The top of it following that was an act of russian aggression, whether it was denial of service cyberattacks against estonia in 2007, invasion of georgia in 2008 or the first invasion of ukraine in 2014. And the point i was making, mr. President, you know, dont trade off something for putin to hope you can have a better republican. Act with strength. Thats when he authorized the sale and provision of javelin Weapons Systems to the ukrainians. So a lot of the book is what was it like to serve in a Trump White House and it was really our teams effort to help a disruptive president disrupt what needed to be disrupted. Its a pretty stark assessment of some of his Foreign Policy decisions. From your time in the white house, lets think about what happened since then. You mentioned ukraine. He was later impeached over aid to ukraine because he held it back. You have seen his comments about kim jongun, his continued flattery of vladimir putin, you saw january 6th. So putting this all together, its not just that donald trump was president. He is trying to be president again. Do you really think that americas National Security interests would be served by another donald trump term . Well, i think thats for every voter to decide you saw jonathan, im saying, you know, how do you strike the balance, right, between somebody who does disrupt some of the policies in washington and i think a lot of people would agree there is a lot of washington that needs to be disrupted. Also be cognizant of the inconsistency of the president. You mentioned a number of examples. Another example in the book is how i think President Trump put into place for the first time a really reasoned and sustainable approach to afghanistan but then abandoned that and entered into negotiations with the taliban without the, you know, without the Afghan Government present. He recreated a lot of the same problems of the Obama Administration in the approach to afghanistan. So i think thats for you and richard and every individual voter to say, okay, based on what you learn in this bok, you know, make your own decision. I am not here as a washed up general to tell people how to vote. You said you wouldnt serve in a trump term. Are you going to vote for him . I am not going to answer that question. I tell the story in the book. I took the oath of service at age 17 on the plane at west point. I followed George Marshalls example. One of my heroes. I read child, you know, Youth Biographies of him and everything. And i think its really important to have a bold line between the military, even retired military, and partisan politics. Not politics in terms of political competitions and diplomacy and National Security affairs. But i dont want to i dont think any american needs you know, an old general to tell them how to vote. So i am somebody my editor is a great guy, said this book needs to be a warning. Im like, no. I want this book toe inform. Not to warn. Thats the purpose of the book. Coming up, one of our next guests won the oscar for his documentary about the war in afghanistan. Alex gibney is profiling an entirely different topic, hbos drama, the sopranos. Alex joins us on the 25th anniversary of the shows premiere straight ahead on morning joe. People get bored, but they dont get bored with me. 6 1 2 hours later lawyers and electricians and carpenters and drivers. Youre doing a lot of things. Russias blowing up with ukraine. Theres war starting all over the place. Looks like bad things could happen. 89 increase in aggravated assault department to go after their political opponent, but theyre not doing well. Nobody lies like her. Shes a liar. She makes up crap. 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So whether youre talking about ensuring illegals are cleaned off the voter rolls, they cant register to vote in certain states, or generally sending out the message, maria, if youre attempting to illegally vote in our elections, we will find you, well track you down, and well prosecute you to the full extent of the law. Were making sure we have people everywhere votes are being cast and counted to have eyes on everything. Thats lara trump saying the rnc would prosecute illegal citizens who cast a ballot. Of course, theres no such things. Welcome to the fourth hour of morning joe. Im Jonathan Lemire in this morning with katty kay. Joe, mika and willie are off. We have seen republicans ramp up this rhetoric. Thats lara trump, who of course not only is a highranking official at the rnc, but is Donald Trumps daughterinlaw. Again, pushing this idea there are undocumented migrants voting that are going to jeoparize the fairness of this election. This is what happened in 2016 and in 2020 as well. Of course, you float the idea this might be an unfair election, then afterwards were seeing the Trump Campaign put in place with the rnc mechanisms to try and disrupt the elections afterwards. Moments ago Israeli Forces say they have rescued a 52yearold male hostage taken captive by the Hamas Terrorist Group october 7th. The joint statement says the man was rescued in a complex operation in the Southern Gaza strip. The father of 11 is in stable medical condition and is being transferred for medical checks at a hospital. As soon as we can, well get a live report from israel with more details on that in just a few minutes. Of course, that happens just as negotiations are continuing to try and get other hostages out as well. It seems like an extraordinary success. Of course, i can only imagine the joyous moment for his family being held since october 7th, now free. This happens while these talks are on in cairo. We, of course, will keep you posted. We should have a live report from israel in just a few minutes. We turn to domestic politics. Former President Donald Trump is casting doubt on whether he will participate in the president ial debate scheduled for september 10th. Garrett haake has the latest. Reporter this morning, the trump and Harris Campaigns are sparring over next months debate. With a 70day sprint to election day, both candidates looking ahead to their first meeting with harris holding at least one mock debate, sources say. While trump turned to social media to complain about the host network and blasting a proposed rules change that would leave most candidates microphones on throughout. Thats in contrast to the debate in june when both candidates microphones were muted. Trump seeming to say the harris proposed change wouldnt be a deal breaker. Doesnt matter to me. Id rather have it probably on. Reporter harris and tim walz holding a bus tour of georgia that begins tomorrow. Trump looking to get back on offense, will target harris on key issues this week, including immigration, with breaking news on that front overnight. A federal judge temporarily blocking a Biden Administration program that allowed undocumented spouses of american citizens to stay in the u. S. While applying for green cards, the program one of many immigration flashpoints, had been challenged by republicans in 16 dates. Under Kamala Harris, American Veterans are treated worse by far than illegal aliens are treated. They stay in hotels. We have veterans sleeping on the street. Reporter using afghanistan to highlight the Biden Administrations chaotic withdrawal from the nations longest war. Our country will never be safe again until we have fired those responsible for this disaster. No fired, the most embarrassing day in the history of our country. That was Garrett Haake reporting. Joining us now, alexi mccammon. Also with us mark morial. Donald trump needs this debate because he needs anything he can to get back in the center of everybodys attention. And the worst thing for donald trump would be to look as if hes afraid of a woman. As we know well, women get under Donald Trumps skin in a really unique way. He cant even be asked tough questions by black female journalists, let alone standing toe to toe with a black woman who could very well be president. Do you think his campaign now want the mics to be turned off . Oh, certainly. Is it about leverage, about saying, okay, lets get the mics turned off and well do the debate. I think he will do it either way. He is much more restrained without the mic being left on. The mute button helped him. Joe biden did not do himself any favors throughout the debate, but donald trump we know is someone who will likely Say Something, sexist, racist, or maybe he wont denounce white supremacist groups. He needs the mic to be muted in order to restrain himself. I imagine all voters are hoping this debate happens because its the only time potentially were going to see these candidates side by side. Its the only time really Kamala Harris is going to have her debating skills against donald trump tested. There had been talk of perhaps a second debate in october, assuming this happens as scheduled on september 10th. We have to get the first one done first. Thats right. Im with you, my sense is everyone involved does think this will happen, but its not a sure thing. We know trump, as just noted there, has some reluctance perhaps to do this. If the polls continue and hes down, that will be incentive to try to change the narrative of this campaign. The harris team is out with a new ad that takes on americas housing crisis and highlights her plan to add 3 million new homes. For most of my childhood we were renters. My mother saved for well over a decade to buy a home. I was a teenager when that day finally came. I can remember so well how excited she was. I know what homeownership means. Sadly, right now it is out of reach for far too Many American families. During the foreclosure crisis, i took on the big banks who exploited people in the housing market. And today corporate landlords buy hundreds of houses and apartments, then turn around and rent them out at extremely high prices. I will fight for a law that cracks down on these practices. We will end americas housing shortage by building 3 million new homes and rentals. We should be doing everything we can to make it more affordable to buy a home, not less. Im Kamala Harris, and i approve this message. On the issue of housing, you spoke at last weeks Democratic National convention and reminded americans of Donald Trumps past housing discrimination lawsuits. Lets revisit that. In the 1970s donald trump was sued for refusing to rent his apartments to africanamericans. His employees were told, put those applications in a drawer and leave them there. It was straight up housing discrimination. It was racism, and Civil Rights Advocacy put an end to it. Kamala harris has a plan to build more housing, keep rent prices fair and help more people own homes. Donald trump, you denied black people the American Dream and Kamala Harris is creating a future where every family, yes, every family, has a place to call home. So housing costs, housing availability certainly a major issue in this campaign. Youre highlighting housing equality. Yeah. I want to speak in my personal capacity this morning so i can be very free with you. Lets set the table for the record of donald trump. Its a record of housing discrimination as a developer, as a builder of apartments. His record as president was he did nothing. There was never a housing plan. The department of housing and urban development was basically invisible for four years as an instrument of change. And the problem, jonathan, is that the rents too damn high, mortgages are out of reach. Too Many Americans are paying 30 of their income on mortgage payments or rental payments. A large number of americans are paying as much as 50 of their income in rental payments. So we need a plan. I think Kamala Harris is correct, a plan to build more units, because we have a supply problem. We have a supply problem of Affordable Housing units, not luxury units, not fancy apartments. You need president ial leadership, you need the coordination to bring the private, the nonprofit and the public sectors together to do this. I think thats what our plan does. You referred to the 19. 1973 Discrimination Suit against donald trump. I think its a pattern of donald trump engaging in racial means, racial discrimination, not respecting the civil rights laws, because as president he didnt enforce them. It shows this is a long, long pattern, notwithstanding all of his rhetoric, all of his games, all of his showmanship. The fact of the matter is that his Real Estate Company never ever had a focus on following housing laws, not following the fair housing act. And as president , he didnt enforce the fair housing act. So here you are with this election. How can the American People trust that hell do anything when it comes to housing, that hell do anything substantial, meaningful or anything fair. Were talking about fairness, the right of all americans to have equal access to either rental or Affordable Housing. I think harris is right. We have to deal with the supply side. I think thats an important step. I really support the idea of helping people understand were 4. 5 million Housing Units short in the country. Her plan to build 3 million, thats substantial. Biden had a housing component in his first build back better. It was blocked by joe manchin, kyrsten sinema. Its time to recognize we can do something about inflation by addressing the housing shortage, and we can create a stimulus which is going to build and create jobs for people and, if you will, tradespeople and Small Developers and large developers. This is an issue that is central to this election. Housing is a big issue, especially for young voters. Rent is so high. Getting a foot on the property ladder is a pipe dream for many. In a new piece, michael writes that it must drive trump nuts, and when he goes nuts, he says arguably nutty things. Third and most of all, sustained ridicule has the potential to reenforce the downward spiral that trump is in now. Ridicule makes him weaker. Ridicule makes him small. Ridicule makes him desperate. I went back to 2011 and that white house Correspondents Dinner where donald trump was so roundly ridiculed by barack obama and by the host of the show, and guess what he did . He ended up running for president. Is there a downside to this ridicule . There might be. But what i observed last week and look, its fair. Obama ridiculed trump back then. It was a long time ago. Ever since he came down that escalator, hes been the subject of ridicule. I thought i noticed something a little different. Highranking democrats usually spend their time warning people how dangerous trump is and how awful things will be if he gets back in office. There was still a fair amount of that at the convention, no doubt about it. But there was more ridicule than i expected to hear. Is there a downside . There may prove to be, but so far its got him back on his heels, i think, in a pretty big way. You know, fear of trump gives him power. It makes him feel powerful, i think. He loves to be feared. He hates to be ridiculed. I think in 2016 the strategy for democrats and Hillary Clinton was when they go low, we go high. I would add a fourth piece as to why its a good thing. It makes democrats seem more normal. Could you talk more about that. And democrats sort of not necessarily going as low as republicans, but really just being normal people who are able to call it like it is and say, guys, this is some weird stuff. Thats a really good point. I think youre right. The first thing that comes to mind is tim walzs comment before he was the Vice President ial nominee when he said these guys are weird. Yeah. I just think with a swing voter who isnt a terribly political person whos in one of the important states, it probably resonates a lot more with that person to talk about trumps weird Hannibal Lecter association. Those things get through to that kind of voter more than talking about his authoritarian and fascistic tendencies. In a way, theyre equally disqualifying. Who wants a president who thinks Hannibal Lecter was a good guy . I think people have made a mistake in running against trump in not fighting fire with fire. Donald trump is a performer. Its part of an old southern political trick of being an entertainer. I think you have to go against the guy very directly and fight fire with fire. The American People love democracy. They love an election. They may say all the time we dont like the ridicule, but they love it. They respond to it. Youve got to meet the moment of the street. This is the streets, this is the neighborhoods, this is the kitchen tables of america. I think you cannot treat trump as though what trump is, is a shucker and a bluffer and a bamboozler. He knows selling what we call in the neighborhood wolf tickets will put someone on the defensive. People have to go directly back at him, fight fire with fire. I say donald trump you need a haircut and you need a better quality tanning bed. You know this history better than most, sir, coming from the state you come from. Of course. There are a lot of entertainers in louisiana politics. I agree. I think it throws him off his game. I think for harris and walz and other highranking democrats, to mock him, i think makes him have trouble finding his footing. Hes a vain fella. Hes proud of himself. Hes vain. Its important to meet the moment. The American People are tired of donald trump just getting away with the high jinks and not being forcibly challenged. A candidacy like a harris walz candidate would do well. I dont think donald trump has any intention of debating. I think this conversation is a game to try to dominate the news sickle. Cycle. Hes trying to make an issue so that if he does not do well in the debate, he will claim it was rigged, hell claim he was the victim. This is an old narrative, and people need to not fall for it over and over again. The new piece online now for the new republican, thank you so much for being with us. And president and ceo of the National Urban league, mark more yall. We have developments out of the middle east. Israeli forces say they have rescued a 52yearold male hostage taken captive by the Hamas Terrorist Group on october 7th. Israels Defense Forces released a joint statement saying the man was rescued in a complex operation in the Southern Gaza strip. Lets bring in correspondent matt bradley leave from tel aviv. Matt, what are you hearing about this . Reporter everything youre hearing. Were all getting this just now. Weve seen the first pictures of the hostage. This is a man who has now been here for about he was basically hostage for, if you can imagine, 326 days. Remarkably, were seeing these pictures now on israeli television. He seems to be in remarkably good health. His family is meeting with him right now in a hospital for observation in southern israel. He lived in a Southern City and was a Security Guard at a kibbutz. Now, the military isnt giving a whole lot of details on this, but the fact is we do wonder and there are some outstanding questions here. If you remember the last time three hostages were rescued, there were Something Like 200 deaths according to the Palestinian Health authority in the gaza strip. We dont know any details on how this man was rescued except for one thing, and that is he was rescued from a tunnel underneath the gaza strip. Were getting more and more information as its coming in to us. Were seeing stirring images of family members of this man at the hospital hoping to greet him. Theyre being allowed in one by one to speak to him. Hes fully conscious. I dont want to say this too soon, but he looks like hes totally healthy. At this point, we are just waiting for more information. But we have to remember, there are only eight hostages who have been rescued alive by force by the Israeli Military since october 7th. We just heard from the hostages family forum, the Group Representing the hostages still held in the gaza strip. They congratulated the idf for this operation for rescuing this man, but they once again pressed their case, as they have been, that there needs to be a hostage negotiation deal. Were starting to see that in cairo. They mentioned only eight people have been rescued so far, which is a woefully small number. Theyre pressing their case, there needs to be a deal. Weve heard from the white house yesterday saying that hostage negotiation deal in cairo is still ongoing. We heard the day before that that it was constructive. Its now in a working group phase. Guys, this is still shrouded in pessimism and has been ever since the last successful deal back in november freed more than 100 hostages. Its still yet to be seen whether that deal is going to go through, but you know, this adds to a lot of the celebration here in israel. Matt bradley live from tel aviv, thank you very much. There are some hundred hostages remaining. Coming up, robert f. Kennedy jr. Says donald trump approached him over the summer about a highlevel position in his campaign. Well tell you what he says that was. Plus, it was one of the most notorious cases of White Collar Crime in american history. Sam bankmanfried convicted of defrauding users of his collapsed Cryptocurrency Exchange and sentenced to 25 years in prison. Limu emu. And doug. bell ringing limu, someone needs to customize and save hundreds on Car Insurance with liberty mutual. Lets fly inaudible sounds chief doug. inaudible sounds ooooo ah. elevator doors opening inaudible sounds i thought you were right behind me. Only pay for what you need. Liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. I came to bayview hunters point, where there was only one pediatrician to serve more than 10,000 children. Daniel lurie said, im going to help. We opened a clinic for our most vulnerable children. I have worked shoulder to shoulder with him as we have brought solutions where people thought the problem was unsolvable. 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In an interview that aired last night, kennedy said he was told there was interest in the Trump Campaign by the president of including me, and then he talked about being Vice President , which i wasnt interested in. Trump named jd vance as his running mate two days later. Kennedy also said he was recently asked to join trumps president ial Transition Team to, quote, help pick the people who will be running the government, adding that hes looking forward to that. No confirmation from the trump team that they actually made the offer of a running mate slot to rfk junior. No. This is somebody who likes attention, so maybe thats why hes putting that out there. For the moment trump seems very happy to have him around, perhaps even more happy than he is to have jd vance around. Vice president Kamala Harris is taking on Donald Trumps economic proposals with her campaign, telling nbc news that the former president s multitrillion dollar agenda is a, quote, deficit bomb. With more on that reporting, lets bring in sahil kapur. What are you hearing on this idea that theres a deficit bomb coming from the harris economic plan, when particularly it was Donald Trumps administration that made the american deficit balloon to the extent that it did . Kamala harris is trying to flip the script on a multigenerational political trend here by claiming the mantle of fiscal responsibility from republicans. Shes doing this by enforcing 5 trillion in new tax revenues on corporations and upper earners which will pay for housing and a bigger child tax credit. Donald trump has called for trillions of dollars in unfunded tax breaks. In a new statement to nbc news, the Harris Campaign labels the trump agenda an inflation and deficit bomb. Her team argues that the debt will go up and donald trump wont pay for the agenda, but the middle class will. What are they talking about . Lets show the math here. According to independent budget experts, harris spending and tax breaks amount to 2 trillion, and her revenues are 5 trillion. Trump would amount to 5 trillion in spending and global tariffs would raise under 3 trillion dollars. Thats over 2 trillion in red ink. Trump was asked how he expects to pay with his new policies. He said, quote, growth, were going to have tremendous growth, unquote. I put that question to the Trump Campaign. His spokesperson told me america has an inflationary spending problem, not a revenue problem. She said trump would cut wasteful spending and boosting Energy Experts without getting specific about how he would do that. Harris is trying to argue shes not only moderate on fiscal responsibility. Shes saying shes more fiscally prudent than her opponent donald trump. Harris is trying to build a Permission Structure for soft republicans and center right voters who are skeptical of trump, to support her candidacy. That could be decisive in battleground states like georgia and arizona. Its also consistent with harris disavowing some of the more leftleaving ideas from her 2020 run like medicare for all and taking a more cost policy approach. Thank you. Bestselling author Michael Lewis made waves last year with his book about the downfall of Sam Bankmanfried. The hardcover edition of his book going infinite was released the same day bankmanfried was tried last october and sentenced to 25 years in prison for defrauding users in the collapsed Cryptocurrency Exchange ftx. A review in the guardian accused him of having developed, a quote, misguided soft spot for the fallen crypto king. Now the paperback edition of the book has new details focusing on the fallout from that trial. The New York Times bestselling author joins us now. Thank you for being here. That was a matter of timing that the hardcover came out the day the trial began. Walk us through whats new here. And did you see this fall coming . Did i see the fall coming before the collapse of ftx . No. Nobody saw it coming. Its peculiar about this financial scandal, because most financial scandals Bernie Madoff for example, someone is saying theres something wrong here. In this case, it was the deposited money that was supposed to be in ftx was actually in Sam Bankmanfrieds private firm. I had a year in marinating in ftx and Sam Bankmanfried world before the collapse. It was completely chaotic. Nobody knew their job titles. There was no cfo. People were throwing money at him without asking too many questions. So it was a peculiar business situation. But, no. Did i see it blowing up . I didnt anticipate it. How do you respond to those criticisms that you were too soft on him before, and do you feel like your view on him has evolved . This book has gotten some of the best reviews ive ever received from some of the best writers. Im pleased with the reception. The noise is good. The criticism comes down to basically, oh, you allow t reader to understand him and possibly sympathize to the extent that you might not just be angry, you might be a little sad about what happened here. It gives you an opportunity to have a range of feelings about what happened. Given the facts, i think thats sort of the appropriate environment to create for the reader. For whatever reason, we have a talent for anger in this country. It expresses itself in our political system constantly. This is not a simple case of financial fraud. It didnt start out as a fraud. It sort of drifted into fraud. I dont know. You know, if i wrote a book that sort of let the reader just hate him and only hate him right from the beginning, it would have missed the whole point. Hundreds of venture capitalists throwing money at him, Chuck Schumer eating out of his hand, tom brady wanting to hang out with him. He was the man of the moment. If he was that awful, why did all that happen . In your assessment, how did that all happen . What was it about sbf that led to this wild success and stunning fall . Great question. Two things. One is, we now live in a world where huge piles of money can be created in a nano second. He went from having none to 22 billion. When he had it, he had it. This world organized itself around these piles of money and the political system as part of that world. The other thing is, hes a peculiar person. Hes just different. He moves through the world sort of mapping it originally for better or worse. A lot of the things that come out of his mouth are absolutely brilliant, and some of the things that come out of his mouth are up sane. That character, he sort of lit up lots of environments he walked through, and people sensed that. Katy perry meets him and says i want to stop singing and come work for you. That happened over and over. Its a compelling character and an unusual situation at an unusual time. So many of michaels books have been turned into movies. Maybe we should start buying our tickets already. I have two questions for you. One is how is sam doing in prison . Have you been in contact with him . And whats his life like there . You mentioned Chuck Schumer and katy perry. Beyond the Financial Technology that enabled him to make so much money, is this book also about the public and particularly powerful peoples attraction to people who make a lot of money very fast . Well, yes to the second question. To the first question, i always thought, i mean, from the moment this blew up and he was pretty clearly facing some jail time, i always thought as long as they gave him the internet, hed be fine in jail. Theres an indifference to his surroundings. So i have been in touch with him some. Ive visited him once and ive spoken to him a few times. I think he feels sort of starved of stimulation, is the truth about it. Jail is not fun. I think he faces i mean, whats extraordinary, the trial to me was not a surprise. It wasnt like stuff didnt come out that was really new to me. The suspense was always like how harshly he was going to be treated. I think it is kind of extraordinary that you have this situation where the depositors whose money was supposedly lost, the money has now been found and theyre all going to get their money back with interest, and hes in jail for 25 years. I think hes getting his mind around that, just the harshness of the sentence. The paperback edition of going infinite is out now. Michael lewis, thank you very much. My 13yearold son is reading moneyball right now. Coming up, congressman Jared Moskowitz is on the Congressional Task force investigating the assassination attempt on former President Trump. The florida democrat is just back from the site of that shooting in butler county, pennsylvania, and he joins us live straight ahead on morning joe. Us ve straight ahead on morning joe. 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Why do couples choose a sleep number smart bed . I sleep great now that my side is as firm as my Heart Desires. My Heart Desires soft. Talk to your neurologist about Vyvgart Hytrulo sleep number does that. Your Ideal Firmness and effortless comfort, all night. During our biggest sale of the year, save 50 on the sleep number® limited Edition Smart bed and free delivery when you add any base. Multiple members from the Bipartisan Task force created to investigate the attempted assassination of former President Donald Trump visited butler, pennsylvania, yesterday. There, they walked the grounds where the incident occurred, climbing onto the roof where a shooter was able to fire eight times at the republican president ial nominee, just 150 yards away from the podium. Democratic congressman Jared Moskowitz of florida was there in pennsylvania yesterday. He joins us now. What did you learn, congressman, by visiting the site that you hadnt known before . Good morning. Thanks for having me. What i learned, actually, is you read about the proximity of the buildings, but until you actually get to the site, you actually realize how close that roof is to where donald trump was on the stage. It is really close. Yes, it was outside of this perimeter, but you get a sense of the landscape. Quite frankly, it makes it even more outrageous, one, that the former secret Service Director did not go there, which is why she has now resigned, among other reasons. But also you get a sense for the multitude of failures that day. Theres not one thing that went wrong. Its obviously clear there were multiple things that did not go correct. And i say that as a former director of Emergency Management for the state of florida and someone whos from parkland and went to Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School where the shooting was. Congress in a bipartisan way is going to look at the failures that day and what steps, what corrective measures have been taken to make sure Something Like this doesnt happen again. Congressman, its alexi mckim mono. Thanks for being here. I dont know if its a lack of information or just imaginations running wild, i am struck by the number of people online and otherwise who believe this situation was staged. What do you say to people who think that, especially after visiting this site . Yeah. I mean, one of the things weve talked as a task force, both democrats and republicans and why you see us doing this on such a bipartisan basis is both sides are struggling with this conspiracy theory. On one side, its that donald trump staged it. And on the other side, it was an inside job. So, look, there is no evidence of either of those at the moment. But, yes, one of the things weve talked about is because government, Secret Service, fbi, Homeland Security is not putting out enough information filling that vacuum, that vacuum is being filled with misinformation. Its incumbent upon government to try to get these answers faster. Were well aware theres an investigation, a process going on, but we are saying to them and ourselves we have to have a hearing and we have to get some of this information into the sunshine. Otherwise, that misinformation and those conspiracy theories will take hold, no question about it. I will tell you this. When you go there and you see that the shooter had a complete line of sight and you see that this building which should have been in the perimeter was outside of the perimeter, i think its so bewildering, its so unimaginable that he could have had a clear shot at a former president of the United States, that people dont want to accept that it was just a failure of systems. They want to say that was so impossible, it must have been staged or it must have been an inside job. Sometimes government fails. Ive seen that happen. I saw it happen at my high school. So when these events happen, sometimes the mind wants to take us to other places, when really the simplest answer is this was a system that hadnt been tested in a long period of time and it completely failed, which is why it needs to be fixed. Are you convinced the system is fixed now as we head into this last stretch of the campaign with Kamala Harris out there as the democratic candidate . Thats what we talked about. Obviously youve got the democratic candidate and the republican candidate still out there. You have the Vice President ial candidates out there. Youve got the families out there. Were having to fix this in realtime. We have asked for the corrective measures. Were told corrective measures have been taken, but one of the things were talking about as a task force is maybe to go along with the campaigns to see these corrective measures in realtime, you know, trust by verify, if you will. Democratic congressman Jared Moskowitz of florida, thank you very much for that update. Still ahead, its been 25 years since the sopranos debuted on hbo. Academy Award Winning director alex gibney joins us next on morning joe. Your body. I asked myself, why doesnt pilates exist in harlem . So i started my own studio. Getting a brick and mortar in new york is not easy. Chase ink has supported us from studio one to studio three. When you start small, you need some big help. And chase ink was that for me. Earn up to 5 cash back on business essentials with the chase ink business cash card from chase for business. Make more of whats yours. Hi, my name is damian clark. 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I. impressed ay i like it who wants to come see the future . get your Business Online in minutes with godaddy airo for years, everybody told me, you should write a show about your mother and yourself. She was so out there. Stop telling me how to live my life. You just shut up i thought, whos going to watch that . Youre making me out to be some kind of [ bleep ] mamas boy. Then i realized, maybe if he was like a really badass guy. So what happened with you and the sopranos, hbo said like, go for it, man. Well, nobody else wanted it. David was a tv veteran, but hadnt really directed. I had no idea what i was doing. But i knew it was going to be about money and death. Could you have a killer as your lead . Is there a place for that on television . So thats a look at a new twopart hbo original documentary about what many critics have described as simply the best Television Show of all time. In wise guy david chase and the sopranos, alex gibney sits down with the shows creator to discuss the shows unlikely success, 25 years after it premiered. The documentary debuts September 7th on hbo and max and alex gibney joins me now. Thank you so much for being here this morning. It is sort of hard to believe, as noted, this show is considered by many to be perhaps the greatest of all time, or on that very, very short list. But yet, it almost didnt happen again. We just heard david chase suggest, no one else wanted it. Tell us a little bit about the unlikeliliness it even happened at all. David had an interesting career when he started out. He had worked on some porno films, a lot of tv shows. He had done anything he could to get in the business and he was sort of a veteran tv guy. He always wanted to make movies. And then he had this script which was about his mother, really. And he took it around to everybody. And they all turned him down, as one les moonves, famous broadcast executive said, we really like this mob thing, but are you whetted to the therapy, ie, the motor of the show. And he said, yeah, i guess you could say im whetted to the therapy. And then he brought it to hbo. Hbo was steering against the algorithms of the day. They wanted to do something different. And in walks this guy with this extraordinary film and they decide, lets just invest in him. And they did. So what drew you to this . Were you a fan of the show at the time . What made this a compelling topic for you . I was a huge fan of the show. I loved it. Hbo asked me to do something about it, and initially, i was reluctant, because i just didnt i didnt feel the need to do a promo show. But when i went and had lunch with david in l. A. , i found him to be a fascinating character. And the whole story of the origin story of the sopranos was really interesting to me. Both getting into how the show was made and also, its relevance into the idea of, you know, whats going on today, where its difficult to get original stuff made, but somehow, david found a way, maybe we all can find a way. Tell us a little bit more about what we should expect in the documentary, who else did you talk to beyond david chase . So obviously, i talked to david and a number of the key cast members, lorraine, edie falco, michael, we have sadly, Jim Gandolfini is no longer with us, but we searched the archives for a lot of wonderful material. But also, we dug deep. We had this material not only from davids past, because he has this wealth of home movies about his own childhood, but also, we got the original audition tapes. Those are really fascinating to watch. Because when youre thinking about like, okay, were starting from a script, now, who do we cast . Thats an interesting story. And now we know them as these fully formed characters. Yeah, but you see all the different people who are auditioning for tony, and Stevie Van Zandt was originally being considered as tony. And we have that audition tape. Why do you think, you know, all of this time later, why do you think the show still has such resonance . Its not like its been consigned to a critics bestof list. People actively watch it today for the second, third, fourth time or discover its for first time. Well, its a family show. I get it. I get it. I think it was willing to be honest. A lot of the writers talked about in the writers room how they would dig down into some of their deepest desires and fears and really let themselves go. And i think theres a kind of fundamental emotional honesty about the show that people really respond to. It went there. For fans of the show, and for those who are just going to discover it now, the hbo original twopart documentary, wise guy, david chase and the sopranos, it debuts September 7th on hbo and max. Academy awardwinning director alex gibney, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you. Good to see you, alex. That does it for us this morning. Morning joe will be back here at 6 00 a. M. Eastern tomorrow. Jose diaz balart picks up the coverage after a short break. Th coverage after a short break not every decision you make will be as good as getting a volkswagen at the savvy vw summer sales event. 2024 volkswagen models cost less to maintain than honda. Get 0. 9 apr financing or a 3500 customer bonus on a new 2024 atlas or atlas cross sport. Its time to grow your business. Create a website. How . Godaddy. Coding. Nah. But all that writing. Nope. Ai, done, built. Lets get to work. Create a beautiful website in minutes with godaddy. Why do couples choose a sleep number smart bed . I need help with her snoring. Create a beautiful website in minutes sleep number does that. Thank you. During our biggest sale of the year, save 50 on the sleep number® limited Edition Smart bed and free delivery when you add any base. Right now on msnbc, breaking news out of the middle east. Israel says that they have just rescued a hostage from gaza, a 52yearold man who was abducted by hamas on october the 7th. Were on the ground with the very latest on his condition. Plus, will he or wont he . Two weeks out from the first debate between former President Trump and Vice President harris. Trump puts the status of that faceoff up in the air. And later, special counsel jack smith tries to revive trumps classified documents case