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poll numbers in the debate and a top holster for the biden/harris campaign is going to join me for an exclusive interview here in studio. nancy pelosi is standing by theç president and firing back at donald trump. nancy pelosi will also be here in just a few minutes. and later, trump's supreme court repairs to rule on trump's claim of. better late than never, i guess. and some thoughts on why the real damage has already been done. done. okay. okay. let's start with the obvious. joe biden had a very bad night on friday. not joe biden himself would tell you that he had a good night, or they shouldn't tell you that. remember, the biggest concern from the president from the moment this re-election campaign darted was about his age and his ability to campaign effectively. ■ç the campaign wanted to have a debate early to shake up the race and silenced those concerns. instead, the president made the much louder. and his performance, or lack thereof, also completely overshadowed was a complete torrent of lies from donald trump in some crazy language. so no, not a good night for the biden campaign. what came next was a full-scale freak out inside several factions of the democratic party. my old boss, one going to talk to in just a minute and was one of the smartest political minds in the country, called a defcon 1 moment that night. the question was being asked here in washington and capitol hill offices and group chats all over my phone, whether joe biden should carry on as the democratic nominee.■ç our job is not to ignore those questions, because they are real. they are valid, they aren't going away. today, the president is at camp david with his family for a photo shoot. the trip was preplanned and announced a week ago, and didn't raise any alarm bells for me. but it's existence has fueled a lot of speculation about what they might discuss, given how important his family is to him, and it's not going to stop anytime soon. right now, it's also important to remember, there's no indication that joe biden plans to step aside. he and the campaign seem to be quite invested in the campaign to keep going. we saw a completely different, totally different joe biden from the one we saw on the debate stage the night or. >> i know i'm not a young man. state the obvious. well, i know.■ç i don't i don't walk as easy as i used to. i don't speak as smoothly as i used to. i don't debate as well as i used too. but i know what i do know. i know how to tell the truth. i know -- i know right from wrong. and i know how to do this job. i know how to get things done. and i know like millions of americans know, when you get knocked down, you get back up. >> one speech at one ■çrally is not going to change the dynamics of the race. it's not going to erase the debate performance from the night before, and it's not going to make those questions about biden stepping aside go away. but that one speech, and the power of that speech, especially at the end, does give you a window into his thinking. he's a competitive guy. he knows he bombed the debate. he still believes the threat the donald trump poses to the country is existential, which it is. and he still believes he can beat him. that's what joe biden thinks. and the campaign and his closest supporters have been circling the wagons around him over the last several days. i'm not going to sit here and tell you what to think, those of you out w;ñhere who have hop of joe biden with a brokered convention, you should know allç the factors there. first of all, it would have a seismic impact on the democratic party if the president stayed neutral and didn't endorse his own vice president. it would mean also a couple of thousand party insiders would be empowered to make a choice on the nominee, not the millions of democratic primary voters who already cast their ballots. it could mean positioning a talented -- the democrats are very talented, but a largely untested candidate with potentially low name identification into the national spotlight as a one person responsible for defeating trump just over two months from an election. you may still prefer that option, but you should know -- the candidate was spit out of that process and may not be her choice either. it will all be very messy and potentially very divisive.■ç it still feels very unlikely. right now, joe biden is standing by the president, the most important person in his life. barack obama is standing by him. we can discuss and debate all day long whether that is the right thing. there are reasonable and thoughtful arguments on both sides of that question, and we will discuss them over the course of the show and over the next few weeks. in the meantime, joe biden and his campaign are pushing ahead. they announced that they raised more than $33 million between debate date and this morning. more than three times as many people apply to work in the campaign and the 24 hours following the debate than on an average day. that's not to say the road ahead won't be rocky. the most important conversations they are going to be having are going to be happening behind closed doors. it's not about ■çwhat an editorial board or a top donor says. the campaign could care less about that. but they know that holding together the coalition of voters is what is important. it's not going to be easy. there will be ongoing discussions about the possibility of an ongoing discussion, and about replacing biden on the ticket. they will have to deal with those questions. they will need to mobilize prominent supporters everywhere, especially the vice president and all those democratic governors or potential candidates in 2028. they will need to announce significant endorsements, and they will need to ensure that the joe biden we watched a clip of on friday is seen and heard across the country on a consistent basis. he also can't let voters lose sight of the fact that he was the guy next to them spouted crazy conspiracies every chance he got. we show you some of president biden's first rally after the debate. let's show you some of trump's. >> remember this term, too big to rig. think of this. he had a news conference today. biden use his name in vain. >> they want electric army tanks, they want electric planes. what happens if the sun isn't shining while you're up in the air ? >> right now, you can't that on some white knight to stand between that guy and the white house, or some easy, simple uniting process. right now, there's just joe biden and all of you, the american people out there. joining me now is my old boss■ç he's a campaign manager for barack obama in 2008 and a senior adviser in the obama white house. i've been talking to lots of people, as i'm sure you have been. i just gave my rundown of my take on things. what did i get wrong there? don't hold back. >> it was a great rundown. here's the question. i think all signs point to joe biden staying in this race and being the nominee. that is his right, and really, obviously, he is the only voice that matters. and so if he does that, you know, this is a race that we were slightly behind heading into the debate. we will see where the race stands as we get more data, but cbs news just got a poll today. 72% of americans don't believe he has a mental capability to ■ç be president. 49% -- so if biden stays in this race, i have all the confidence in the world, they could run the perfect campaign. it won't get you to the win number unless that number were to get better. so the question is, what are you going to do? he's going to have to be much more aggressive with all the risk that comes with it. interviews and unfriendly places through the september 10th debate, if trump does it. that is a big thing. i learned it can be humbling to be part of the campaigns. campaigns don't change big things. they help you on the margins. there's three big things. donald trump is a super weak candidate who can be beat. people's view of the economy■ç not what we would like it to be. it's improving a little bit. how do you win that debate on the economy where joe biden has some strength, in terms of, he cares about working people? so i think a race that was already going to be hard to win is getting harder, and we just all need to embrace that. if you believe that donald trump's election is an existential threat to the country. i think probably more than slightly half of the country believes that. this is not a race you have to try to win. as joe biden is thinking about the way forward, in my humble view, you can't lose. and you got to be sure you are the right person to do that. i think he's been a great president, but we have to understand where the race is right now, which is, we are ■ç behind. we can talk about all the presidents of a bad first debates, and a bunch of them did. reagan, obama, bush, they were all ahead in their elections. we had that opportunity last thursday night. joe biden did not. he made a problem that was close to existential worse. it doesn't mean it can't be addressed, but it's going to require great strategy, great tactics, and there's risk on both sides. a whole bunch of downsides about process. there's downsides staying where we are. having worked in the white house, generally every day is deciding more options. that is kind of where we are. i think this is a race that can be won. because donald trump showed again in the debate and that awful rally afterwards why there's enough americans out there that don't want to sign up for another donald trumpbos term. right now, we are not where we want to be.■ç that's where the focus needs to be. how do we change a race where we are now heading towards a loss to a win? >> the buck stops of the candidate. just to double down on what you just said. there's lots of risks and threats. i do want to talk about the open convention possibility, which, there's no indication joe biden is dropping out or not going to run, i think it's important that they might still support that they learn more about it, what that would mean. explain to us what factors should be considered for those calling for the convention. my view is that if he doesn't endorse the vice president, that is seismic. you may disagree with me, but what are the factors people aren't factoring in here ? >> well, with the important caveat that this is likely not going to happen -- ■rut, you know, we can do that. so first of all, yes. there's a threshold question. will joe biden say, i'm not going to run, and i'd like all my candidates to support kamala harris. he could say, i want an open convention where people can make their case. governors and senators will make a decision on their own. it's kind of gross, because it's not voters. it's delegates. but you would be running a campaign. there would certainly be a lot of interviews, on msnbc d, people traveling state, meeting with delegates. smoky back rooms. that's a downside. insiders picking the new person. the political graveyard is littered with people, ron desantis being the latest member of that graveyard, who looked like they were surefire ç presidential candidates on paper. this stage is withering. people most don't survive it. maybe the party is divided. there's a bunch of downsides. there is an upside, which is, it's a younger, newer face. a lot of americans would like another choice. that provides some energy. it's a different race for donald trump to win and run, i think much harder. so i think that as is often the case around the presidency and presidential campaigns, there is no aaron sorkin screenplay here. there's downsides and challenges and upsides in each, but the people who think, we just get somebody else and they are going to walk to the white house -- that is complete bs. is a bunch of landmines in that option ■ças well. i also think there's some upsides, and i think joe biden is at the lowest point right now in terms of his campaign. i think he can grow from here. but it reminds me of 12. there are national polls that showed us tied with romney, but we knew reliably, we had a small advantage. that's where the race is right now. can joe biden overcome that? i think he can. but we should be honest about where we are, which is, without more voters saying, actually, i think he's up for this -- that's what were looking for. >> i think it's so important to be honest about where we are. they were real and important discussions people are having out there.■ç no one understands all the patents. thank you for helping me break all of that down and giving more people to digest. i really appreciate it. coming up next, house speaker emeritus nancy pelosi joins me and we discuss all of the calls for joe biden to step aside. plus, the supreme court's ruling on donald trump's claim of presidential immunity. but first, what are the numbers saying after thursday night's debate? it's all about voters. molly murphy is standing by for an exclusive interview, and she joins me next. 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fundraising appeal, claiming that the president outperforms other democrats against trump. but the pulley included show that biden's margin is actually similar to that of the potential alternatives. perhaps most notable was the way the campaign addressed the possibility that biden's poll numbers may dip in the near future. if we do see changes in polling in the coming weeks, it will not be the first time■ç that overblown media narratives have driven temporary dips in the polls. while we have not yet seen a dip in head-to-head numbers or in swing states, a new poll from cbs news showed a big swing among registered voters that said biden should not run for president. 72% of registered voters they biden should not be running, compared to 63% who said that in february. joining me now is biden/harris campaign poster molly murphy. i'm so excited to talk to you about this, because as i said earlier -- correct me if i'm wrong -- they do not care about the editorial board of the new york times. so i just referenced the cbs poll, showing nearly a 10% increase in people who think the president shouldn't run. what do you ■çmake of that poll can he win with those numbers on that question? >> absolutely. this is a question that has been asked in polls several times over the last four years, over the last eight years about whether or not the president should run. one thing that is important to note in these polls, the easiest question to ask voters is, do you want an alternative and nondescript, not detailed alternatives? it's not naming someone, it's not saying who or how. that's an easy yes for voters to answer. we see none not just of the president but with other voters in the past. what's behind door number two is always when has some appeal. we also see is on the most consequential question that we asked voters, who are you going to vote for -- that is where you continue to see voters saying they are supporting ■çth president. >> i know for doing lots of campaigns, there's all sorts of numbers floating around every campaign. what are those daily tracking poll numbers overnight saying over the last two days? >> i think that is a really important question. what the media has focused on and what a lot of the recent poll numbers that have gotten picked up focus on is, how would you rate the president's debate performance? the president is the first to say it was not his best night. that is something we have seen. what doesn't get covered as much is that voters are capable of taking on a lot. what they also took out of the debate is a majority of people who watched the debate felt like the president talked about issues that they cared about. they felt like the president came across as somebody who cares about middle and working class americans, and he camm ■ across as more presidential, more likable, more truthful. a really important contrast we've been setting up throughout this campaign. the other part that is important here is that donald trump did not have a good debate night either. voters did not like what they saw from him. >> you also did dials, and dials are going and measure. i'm sure every voter would love to be in a room when dials are happening. sometimes there are surprising moments. what works for biden -- we know a lot of what didn't work, which is kind of his energy during the debate, and his inability to push back. were there moments that worked, and what stood out in terms of moments that were concerning question marks the mac to explain to your vehicles about this, we have swing voters in the midwest.■ç each person is given a dial, a literal dial. you can turn it up as high as 100 if you love what you are hearing. you can turn it down as low as zero if you hate what you are hearing. every time donald trump opened his mouth, those dials dropped. they just plummeted. >> who are these voters? >> these are swing voters who are saying they are undecided or may change their mind on the election. they have not locked in their vote choice. they are watching this because they are trying to decide -- this is a choice between two candidates. when they saw donald trump and heard from donald trump, those dials dropped. they dropped in particular when he talked about january 6. they dropped when he talked about roe. but he doubled down on beingaki proud of overturning roe in that debate, ■ç and the voters took notice of that. and when he three times refused to say he would accept the results of the election unless he liked the results, those were the absolute bottom out moments. the president did land pretty good punches on him. some of the most standalone statements of the viewers watching, the people on our dials was wanted to, the only felon is sitting across from me in this room. that was one of the standout lines. the morals of the alleycat people really picked up on and jumped out. anytime the president was reminding voters of how untruthful and how unable they will be to's trust donald trump services contrast in this race. >> the campaign put out a lot of memos. i've written these memos before in my life. i get why there's a push out publicly. one of the ■çthings that was in the campaign memos preemptively close a media narrative for any shift in the polls. there could be shifts in the polls. but i didn't totally get the reference to an overblown media narrative. it seemed to be kinda punching at the media. i don't know the value of that was. the mac i think the point in saying something like that is, we know that in modern campaigns, singular moments do not spell the outcome of a race. whether it is a debate, whether it is a scandal, whether it's an individual hot mic moment. we love to say and cover these like they are going to fundamentally change the trajectory of the race. they will potentially bump the polls up or down in one direction or another, and that may last a week or two. we have seen that in past moments and we will see it again.■ç i think the sentiment there was really just saying, yes, we are going to see ups and downs, but the fundamental lesson we are taking out of this debate and every other moment is, this is a closely divided country. every vote matters, and were going to go out there every day showing voters that we have their best interest at heart and that this president is going to fight for them every day. >> molly murphy, thank you. thank you for being here with me this afternoon. coming up, the supreme court finally prepares to rule on donald trump's claim of presidential immunity. as a former president continues his full embrace of january 6th. and in just a few minutes, house speaker emeritus nancy pelosi on how donald trump attacked her during the first debate. we are back after a quick break. break. for easier heartburn relief, one beats ten. prilosec otc. one pill. 24 hours. zero heartburn. an alternative to pills, voltaren is a clinically proven arthritis pain relief gel, which penetrates deep to target the source of pain with 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>> well, how are you? good to see you. stiff competition for that moment. there's stiff competition for that moment, because of constant manifesto of lies. as you may recall, i tore up his speech as the state of the union because it was a total manifesto of lies, and that's what we saw the other night, which must be rejected, as well as his candidacy. one that stood out was about january 6th. this man would not send the national guard. tha we were asking for it, begging for it to the secretary of defense and the president, of course, is the ultimate commander in chief, and he would not send it. for him to go on tv and lie about that, the instigator of the insurrection against the congress of the united states, against the constitution of the united states, against the capital of the united states. and just pass it off. that was tough. but in terms of what it means at the kitchen table for america's working families, for him to talk about roe v wade the way he did, either he doesn't know what he's talking about, or he's totally lying. or both. it's a terrible combination. people look at that, it was not a good night. let's face thcté in terms of performance for joe biden. he is so much better than that. what it means to people in their lives, he answered question about policy. how can you have a legitimate debate when someone is totally lying and you have to completely dispel their falsehoods? but in any case, three things i would say. a woman's right to choose. he lied about that. this is very important to women. it's a freedom issue. it's an economic issue, it's a kitchen table issue, it's a personal issue. in terms of jobs, 15 million new jobs. the other guy, the worst job performance since herbert hoover. he saying he did this and he did that. in terms of covid, it was terrible, his denial ■çand his delay uncoated killed people. what he did on january 6th, people died or were hurt. this is a dangerous person, and evil. and then on the economy, which is so important, 16 nobel laureates. 16 economic nobel laureates said his -- the other guys fiscal policies have inflation up. so, again, if you talk about climate, and he said with -- he sat with the fossil fuel industry and said, give me $1 billion for my campaign so i can endorse what they've done. everything that matters to people, whether it's gun violence, you name it -- this person has been on the negative end of it all■ç. and everybody telling him about what joe biden did. thank you for asking about him, because it was terrible. and our members, the one thing i would say about them the day after, friday morning when we went in for votes, it was stunning to see the republicans embrace this pack of lies. once again, they know that that isn't true, what he was saying. or else they are just in a state of disillusionment. but people have to make the vote for themselves. and what they saw between the two of them did not change many minds, as molly was saying earlier. most people are smarter than that. but on the other hand, why do we talk ■çp!out joe biden? this guy is old. he doesn't have a stream of thought that is logical. and nobody says anything about that, that he could be so disassociated from the facts. you saw on one side of the screen, integrity. concern for people. on the other side, you saw dishonesty and self-serving lies. >> i think the reason it is important to talk about president biden is for people to understand what the options are here. and the different choices people are throwing out there. you've probably been talking to donors and members and everybody out there. there was a report i wanted to ask you about, because anonymous sources i'm always skeptical of. is a couple of anonymous sources saying in and story■ç that you told members you are concerned about joe biden's viability. not his talent as a president, but his viability of the candidate. and you are not an anonymous force. you are the person. i want to ask you if that's true. >> we have informed nbc that that was not true. it couldn't be further from the truth. if anything, i'd being criticized for being so clear about joe biden and his decision about running for office. that completely was not true. i don't know where they got that, but i've had a problem with nbc news people's lives. the kitchen table issues of personal freedom and job opportunity and education and climate and gun violence protection and the rest and what it means to people.■ç and you have to have the money to get it done. and joe biden has that. he raised $14 million after that poor performance in the debate. but let me say this. one of the things that did happen is, people are said to me, we are going to give so much more money to you now for the past democrats, because watching -- i hate to use his name. what's his name lies so much on tv. we know we must win the house. as at the same time we elect the president and we elect a democratic senate. so let's becalm. let's be prayerful. it's a sunday morning. let's be clear in terms of evaluating what the possibilities are and the rest. let us ra has been a great president of the united states, and what he is putting forth for the future is not about to pass. they want to know what you are going to do next. and what he has next to do is to continue his agenda for the people, putting people over politics. and that means more for women in the work place, medical leave, tax credits, affordable checks, affordable childcare. so that many more women can participate. and all those bills that he passed, whether it was to protect our veterans -- imagine that this guy was trying to lay claim to doing more for veterans. we did hundreds of billions of dollars to help veterans who are victims of burn pits. and then denying■ç that he said what he said about the veterans. just think about what he said about john mccain, a national hero, a prisoner of war. i just -- such a super patriot. and this guy was downgrading him because he was captured. there something wrong there, and there's something doubly wrong about the republicans who wrap their arms around that, because -- because money rules on the republican side. whether it's the fossil fuel industry, the gun industry, the pharmaceutical industry, that's what rules them. we are here for the people. >> a very quick break, were going to continue talking about this and the path forward, right after this. opens my nose for maximum air flow. so, i breathe better. and we both sleep better. and stay married. this summer. snacking. just. got. serious. introducing new $3 footlong dippers. the world might not be ready for them... ...but at $3 a pop? your wallet definitely is. >> we are back >> we are back with house speaker emerita nancy pelosi. we've been talking on the show about all the different paths just to help people understand. jim clyburn said recently, and made biden/harris person, so i'm not getting away from that. i'm going to be for biden at harris ain't there, i'm going to be there for harris if biden ain't there. there is no indication joe biden is not going to be the nominee, but are you in the same place as clyburn, your colleague? >> i'm in my own place, and i support the biden/harris ticketç i think they've had a very successful presidency and vice presidency and have more to get done. and hopefully, if we can get rid of the filibuster and pass bills with 51 votes instead of 60, we can accomplish much more as we go forward. >> if biden wasn't on the ticket -- >> i am saying to you that i support the biden harris ticket . i am not abandoning joe biden right now for any speculation. biden/harris, both of them. i enthusiastically support them, as are many of our intelligentsia may have some analysis of what people are thinking. what we are hearing that people are thinking is, they support the ticket, and i support the ticket. >> let me just go back to -- okay. >> i was just asking about the supreme court, because it is a very important ruling that is coming down tomorrow morning guarding presidential immunity. they waited for 6 months, they delayed making it so that the american public will not see a verdict on this very important case. what is your reaction to all of this? what should people understand about the delay and what we are looking ahead to tomorrow? >> think you for that question. if the court tomorrow says that that former president is above the law, they will have done a grave disservice to justice in our country. let us hope that they have some -- show us some allegiance to their oath of office to support and defend the constitution of the united states. and that just because you are president doesn't mean you are immune from prosecution if you break the law. so that will be a big test for the court tomorrow, to see if they honor their oath of office. >> they have given us a lot -- >> by the delay -- yeah. by delaying as they have, they have undermined justice in our country, in my view. >> no question. >> let's just go back to ■ç january 6, because this is one of the charges against the president. the president goes on tv and says, i planned my own assassination. no, i didn't. he did. they are going to hang the vice president of the united states and they are going to put a bullet in my head. and he will not send the national guard. people were injured. law-enforcement people were injured. some people died. and people died again because of his delay and denial about covid. this is a totally irresponsible person. and again, the supreme court -- the supreme court would say that a person is above the law? and they waited months to come to ■ça conclusion about it? it going to be a very important day for america. >> absolutely. >> as you know, i'm always quoting the national anthem. proof through the night that our flag is still there. we had to prove through this night that our flag is still there, with liberty and justice for all as we celebrate the fourth of july. >> perfect way to end. i always enjoy talking to you. i love your passion, everything you have ever done. of next, a personal invitation for me to you. we are back after a quick break. break. on contact. magic. new ultra foamy magic eraser. starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant, that's a different story. with the chase ink card, we got up and running in no time. earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card from chase for business. new centrum menopause supplements help unpause life when symptoms pause it. with a multivitamin plus hot flash support. 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