>> thank you. that is our show for tonight. now it is time for "the last word with lawrence o'donnell." >> tonight we are answering a question i've been wondering about which is how can marco rubio be on the same ticket as donald trump, because the constitution says, i have to say this right, that the electors from a state cannot vote for two candidates who are from the same state. they can only vote for one. >> it would make little marco move, right? >> that's the thing, does he have to move? how does the senator from florida moved from florida? is that legal? anyway, we need an election lawyer to figure this out for us. i just don't understand how they can be talking about rubio as if that is some sort of easy choice to make. >> i'm glad you are getting to the bottom of this. that is quite the pretzel twist. i will be watching. presidential campaign debates were invented by and for tv. 1960 wasn't just the first televised presidential debate, it was the first. george washington never debated . abraham lincoln famously participated in the lincoln douglas debates, but that was in a senate campaign that abraham lincoln lost. we had 34 presidents in a row who never debated to get the job. if you are around 70 years old, you can actually remember seeing every presidential debate in history. that is how few there have been. you could have seen every one of them and not one of those debates has actually been a test of anything presidential except demeanor and the only presidential campaign debater in history who has failed the basic demeanor test is donald trump. the debate rules are always absurd and test nothing about the job of the presidency. the rules tomorrow night are typical. they say,, the debate will begin with a question with candidates each allotted two minutes to respond. this will be followed by one minute rebuttals and responses to the rebuttals. in the job of the presidency the president is never forced to give two-minute replies or 62nd replies about anything. ever. there is an especially ridiculous rule for tomorrow night's commercial breaks. there will be two commercial breaks and the rule says campaign staff may not interact with their candidate during that time. that could not be more childish and unrealistic. presidents always can can or not just with their staff and the cabinet, but with the very best experts in the world on every subject at any time, for as long as they want. a better way to do this tomorrow night would actually be to allow the candidates to have as many staff as they want. join them on the stage throughout the debate and make sure that all of them have microphones. and the candidates should be allowed to turn to their staff and confer with them about anything, at any time in the debate. and we should be able to hear everything that they say, so we can hear if the candidate has competent or incompetent staff. we could hear the candidate overrule some advisors and say something else. we could watch the candidates actually think and process information, including possibly information that they might not know until a staff member tells them or reminds them. a candidate should be allowed to let staff members actually answer questions for them, just as the secretary of state answers questions on behalf of the president around the world, as has every secretary of state in history. that is the way the presidency actually works. the presidency does not involve oral exams and memory quizzes. the president is allowed to forget what the marginal income tax rate is on couples filing jointly with an income of $150,000. there is always someone in the room who knows the answer to that kind of thing, which by the way is 22%. and i don't know that because i used to write tax law and i memorized the tax brackets. i know that because i just looked it up. that is the way governing works. people are allowed to look up whatever fact they need and they are allowed to forget those facts when they don't need it because they will always be able to retrieve those facts one way or the other when they do need it. or they should always be allowed to ask nearby experts or advisors for that fact. that's the way it works for senators, that's the way it works for presidents, members of congress, mayors, city counselors. faithful viewers of this program with memories might remember me issuing a version of this play about presidential debate and how absurdly unrealistic they were. how they have nothing to do with the job because i have issued a version of this complaint about the debates every four years at least. what we will see in tomorrow night's debate is yet another example of just how unfit for the presidency donald trump is. donald trump will lie and we know he will lie because we know that he will speak and it is impossible for him to do one without the other. there is a new rule at tomorrow night's debate which has not been tried before. quote, microphones will be muted throughout the debate except for the candidate whose turn it is to speak. that should be called the trump rule. that rule was obviously written to try to keep donald trump under the kind of control that all presidential debaters before him have been capable of imposing on themselves. tomorrow night's debate audience could be the biggest television audience that the candidates have this year and on the eve of the debate, former republican congressman adam kinzinger who served on the house select committee to investigate the january 6 attack at the united states capital, for the first time in his life, endorsed the democrat for president. >> i am adam kinzinger and i am a proud conservative. i always have been. as a proud conservative i always put democracy and our constitution above all else and it is because of my unwavering support for democracy that today, as a proud conservative, i am endorsing joe biden for reelection. my entire life has been guided by the conviction that america is a beacon of freedom, liberty, and democracy. well i certainly don't agree with president biden on everything and i never thought i would be endorsing a democrat for president, i know he will always protect the thing that makes america the best country in the world, our democracy. donald trump poses a direct threat to every fundamental american value. he doesn't care about our country. he doesn't care about you, he only cares about himself and he will hurt anyone or anything in pursuit of power. you saw that when he tried to overturn an election that he knew he lost in 2020. he attacked the foundation of this nation, encouraging a violent mob of his supporters to march on the capital to prevent the peaceful transition of power. now he called for termination of the constitution. he wants to be a dictator on day one, he actually said that, and he is continuing to stoke the flames. there is too much at stake to you sit on the sidelines. so to every american, i say now is not the time to watch riley as donald trump threatens the future of america. now is the time to unite behind joe biden and showed donald trump off the stage once and for all. >> leading up for discussion tonight's former assistant democratic leader, congressman james clyburn of south carolina. he is a national cochair of the biden harris 2024 campaign. congressman, thank you very much for joining us tonight. you were in my judgment and the judgment of many others, the single most important endorsement joe biden got four years ago to send him on his way to winning the white house. how important do you see the kinds of endorsements joe biden is getting from prominent republicans now like adam kinzinger? >> well, thank you very much for having me, lawrence. very, very important, because i think tantamount to everything, democracy is on the ballot this year and when you have people like adam kinzinger and other corporate americans, as well as some of the other republicans that i know that will be endorsing joe biden, it demonstrates that people are putting this country above partisan politics and i think that is so important this time. adam is correct. nobody agrees with joe biden on everything. i don't agree with joe biden on everything, but that is not what this is all about. this is about whether or not we will continue our pursuit of a more perfect union. whether or not we will leave, for our children and grandchildren, a country that will allow them to fulfill their dreams and aspirations without any fear of having to succumb to a dictatorship and donald trump is telling us each and every day that he has very little respect for the constitution. he is not concerned about the future of others outside of his own and his family and we ought to take him at his word and get beyond the partisan politics. get beyond parties and think about what the future holds for all of us. >> are you finding that there are voters out there or groups of voters who have been pro- biden voters in the past to the biden campaign, president biden needs to reach out to tomorrow night in this debate or the campaign needs to do more work to hold onto those voters this year? >> oh yes, no western about that. there are people who are ambivalent about what is going on around them. they see the polling data that seems to be contrary to what they are feeling. it is certainly contrary to what i have been feeling and experiencing. i was in georgia over the weekend. i did five events within 36 hours and i'm telling you, people are listening, they are looking, and they are feeling. and what they feel is a lot of anxiety and we need to reach out to them. so i have said to president joe biden on more than one occasion, no matter what question is asked, make it very clear that your proposals, what they will do for the individual, what they will do for families and what they will do for communities. that is what this is all about. people want to know whether or not they can think of a future, dream of a future that their children, their grandchildren can be proud of. >> in the south carolina debate four years ago in the primary among the democrats, there was a moment when you convinced joe biden to say publicly that he intended to appoint a black woman to the united states supreme court if he had a vacancy. is there something like that that you think the president could say tomorrow night or at some point during the campaign? is there some specific thing like that that you would be hoping to hear from him from -- from him? >> yes, the things he will do to preserve this democracy, to continue our pursuit of a more perfect union. let people know what he will build upon. what kind of health care system they can look forward to. i say all the time it is one thing for things to be available to people. it is something else for them to be affordable for people and that is what i think the president needs to do, just let people know this is what you can count on from me, to keep this democracy, the greatest democracy in the world and let people know how you plan to do that. now he has got a great record and that record is good to run on, but as you run, people need to be looking toward the future. what they can expect in their lives, five, 10 years from now, if you get reelected and i think he will get reelected and i do believe if he reaches out to people in this manner, they will reward him handsomely in november. >> your constituents rallied around joe biden four years ago in south carolina. when you're there now and they ask you about joe biden, are they asking how sharp is he? how is he doing? they must want to know the inside story about what president biden is like four years later with all of the talk of his age. >> yeah, they are concerned about that and i talked to people about that all the time. no one can run away from their age. i am almost two years older than joe biden, but i have never had to overcome stuttering as a child. that is something he worked very hard on and he is still not 100%. a lot of times when he rushes a word out, people see that as being some sort of a gaffe. i said this earlier. one of my legs is shorter than the other as a result of an automobile accident when i was a child, so i walk with a slight limp and sometimes you can notice and sometimes you can't. it all depends on what day it is as to how i might walk and that is the same thing with joe biden, but there is nothing wrong with his brain. he has one of the most, i think, masterful grips on the government of our country that one could have and he shows it time and time again with the proposals he has for the american people. so when you have good ideas that people can rally around, irrespective of their stations in life, irrespective of skin color or gender, irrespective of their status, he will do what is necessary to move this agenda forward and that is what is so good about joe biden. just look today, the announcement he made today about repairing a fault that took place with our men and women in uniform that no one has thought about, but he is coming forward, demonstrating his compassion. i would love to see that kind of compassion demonstrated tomorrow night as he gives answers to the questions. >> congressman james clyburn, thank you very much for starting off her discussion tonight. >> thank you for having me. >> coming up, while the supreme court once again refused to issue its opinion about donald trump and immunity today, the word did in effect give immunity to clarence thomas. that is next with andrew weissmann. so, what about $574 for switching your home insurance to allstate? oh, i try not to think about home insurance. too complicated. actually, allstate can handle the switching for you. —just call 'em. —it's that easy to save? yup. and you get allstate. huh, well that's a step up. goodbye, gerald. oh... check allstate first and you could save hundreds. you're in good hands with allstate. ♪ i am, i cried ♪ and you [ laughing ]undreds. 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there is no such thing as a gratuity and government. in government that is called a payoff. but we now know that the supreme court itself is populated by government officials, by judges, who take payoffs. what they were preferred to call gratuities. clarence thomas alone has taken over $4 million worth of gratuities from ultrarich republicans who he did not know and had never met until he became a supreme court justice. in her dissent, justice ketanji brown jackson wrote officials who use their positions for private gain threaten the integrity of our most important institutions. it seemed as if she was actually writing about the supreme court itself in that line. officials who use their public positions for private gain threaten the integrity of our most important institutions. that is exactly what clarence thomas has done for many, many years. he has used his position, his public position, for massive private gain and today clarence thomas said that's legal and so did the five other republican appointed supreme court justices. justice jackson wrote officials who use their public positions for private gain threaten the integrity of our most important institutions. greed makes governments at every level less responsive, less efficient and less trustworthy from the perspective of the communities they serve. snyder's absurd and a textual ruling of the statute is one only today's court could love. joining our discussion now is andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel and former chief of the criminal division for the eastern district of new york. he is a msnbc legal analyst. andrew, your reaction to what the supreme court did not decide today and what they did. >> let's start with the snyder decision. the dissent that ketanji brown jackson wrote. it is something i really commend everyone to read. it is written in plain english and she takes the majority to task. i had the same reaction as she was speaking about the supreme court itself. both to justices thomas and alito in terms of the money they have taken as public officials, but also in terms of saying, you say you are an original list when it is convenient. that is this idea that we will only look at the text. she says okay, let's look at the text. the text is a congressional statute that says it is illegal to pay bribes and receive bribes and to get rewards. she says that's it. we are done, i thought you were textual list. that is why she says only this supreme court. this is supposed to be interpreting congressional language. it is not a policy debate in the supreme court and she calls them out, saying you are having a policy debate and you lose even on the policy debate. i mean, who on god's green earth thinks it is fine to take a reward as long as you take the money afterwards? just don't take it before. that is now the law based on this supreme court and obviously the court did not issue its immunity decision. you know, i'm going to quote paula poundstone who said i can't wait to find out from the supreme court whether a president can kill someone. i mean it is just so absurd that this was not decided six months ago when jack smith asked the supreme court to rule. this is one where the decision is the delay. yes we will get a decision, but the decision, actually the fact that it has taken this long, because jack smith will have one heck of a time trying to get this to trial before the election. >> to go back to the bribery case, it was $13,000 after the fact of a $1 million contract to the company. let's change the numbers. let's say it is a much bigger contract to a much bigger company and it is $1 million. just give you $1 million, a couple of weeks afterwards. the supreme court says no problem. >> absolutely and ketanji brown jackson goes through those facts and says you have got to be kidding. he gave out, it was actually over $1 million in two contracts and then this public official shows up at the door and says that will cost you $15,000 and the company gets it down to $13,000 and then when law enforcement comes and says what is this, he lies repeatedly and comes up with a whole series of false stories to account for that money. why? because he knows it is illegal. she saying you've got to be kidding. even if you think there are some areas in this law that could be vague, where there is some application to some people where there may be a claim, it is not him. and yet they have now basically said, you know what? we are all for sale. >> and donald trump wants to make that money tax-free because donald trump is in nevada saying he wants to make tips tax-free, you don't have to include tips in your tax returns. now if you are a republican official and someone gives you $1 million after a deal, that yours, too, is keep it all. >> that's just the tip and the idea that this is something you have justice alito and justice thomas voting on, just like they will be voting on the january 6 case, you know, it tells you just the sorry state that the courts are in, which is supposed to be one of the bulwarks, one of the key checks and balances that is supposed to be sort of a crown jewel of our democracy and you can understand why the court's newest judge, ketanji brown jackson, is taking them to task in language that is strong and deservedly strong. >> that line, only this court could love, that is not normal supreme court justice language. b make no, it is clear she has gotten there. remember she served on the district court of appeals. on the court in d.c. with conservative justices and to me it is, it reads like she can't believe that she is seeing such disingenuous conduct by her colleagues. >> andrew weissmann, thank you very much for joining our conversation. coming up, the constitution makes it extremely difficult for a president and vice president to win the electoral college together if they are both from the same state, like donald trump and marco rubio. what would marco rubio have to do to make that problem go away? 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this guy inherited $200 million. he's never faced any struggle. he told a protester, i'm going to punch you in the face. donald trump has never punched anyone in the face. donald trump was the first guy that begged for secret service protection. >> joining us now is ben ginsberg, a republican election lawyer, a witness in the january 6 investigations and cochair on the bipartisan commission on election administration. this one is fascinating for me. including the possibility where you could end up with donald trump as president and kamala harris as vice president, but that is the trickiest version. let's start with what would marco rubio have to do in order to remove this problem to be on the ticket with donald trump? >> well, there are gradations of what he could do. the first would obviously be to resign from the senate and establish residency somewhere else. that would be the cleanest to take the issue off the table or he could simply establish residency in some other jurisdiction from florida and still remain a senator under the argument that would certainly be challenged that article 1 of the constitution says you have to be a resident of the state you are representing when you are elected. so he was a resident of florida in 2022 and elected, so maybe could do that. honestly, lawrence, there is a more elegant solution to this and that is to take the strict words of the 12th amendment that you noted. it says that when an elector goes to vote, he or she can't vote for two candidates from the same state, but those electors are not even chosen until election day on november 5, so the trump/rubio ticket would have the argument that marco rubio is going to be on the ticket. if they win he's going to resign on november 5. the electoral college does not vote until december 17 and by that point he would no longer be a resident of the same state as donald trump. so that the argument would be that the status quo exists and then you have two do a little after the election. >> so it sounds like dick cheney and george w. bush didn't want to take that chance. they wanted to make the move as early in the process as possible. >> that is absolutely true. it took the issue off the table entirely. which is also easier because dick cheney was not a sitting public official at the time, so the whole issue of continuing to be a u.s. senator or any elected official never presented itself, but in 2000 it was much cleaner to do with george w. bush and dig cheney. >> even the cheney move eventually invited litigation, which they wanted, but clearly anything sounds like marco rubio and donald trump would do here would invite some type of litigation. >> yes i think it would. we are in litigious times, in case no one has noticed that. it would also come right at the convention and having this litigation, having to face the issue at the convention, would take some of the spotlight off donald trump and his triumphant moment. so that is another piece of the puzzle of why this would happen that you have to consider. >> this is the kind of thing that in my experience in politics, everyone just says to difficult, forget it, move on. who is next on the list? it is hard to imagine them taking on this much of a headache. >> look, if the political calculation and the personal calculation is that marco rubio is the right person to be donald trump's running mate, then he would be willing to take it on. in fact it could even credential marco rubio greater and play to the strengths he would bring to the ticket as a cuban-american and someone who does have a history of being able to talk to working-class citizens. >> we would see an awful lot of those old marco rubio videos during the campaign if that happens. ben ginsberg, thank you very much for guiding us through this. thank you. coming up, and wisconsin donald trump said no one should live on the atlantic ocean or the pacific ocean because unlike the lakes of wisconsin, those oceans have sharks. then donald trump, who lives on the atlantic ocean, introduced wisconsin voters to a guy who lives on the pacific ocean and trump endorsed him for senate in wisconsin, where senator tammy baldwin occupies the senate seat and is running for reelection. senator baldwin has something to say about that and will join us next. 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being with you, right now, look at that beautiful lake, that beautiful lake. beautiful, right, what's better, this? are sitting on the pacific or the atlantic, which has sharks. you don't have sharks, see, that's, that's a big advantage. i'll take the one without the sharks. we are pleased to be joined today by many incredible patriots including the man who was going to help wisconsin rivers every single biden disaster, your next u.s. senate turn this guy is central casting. eric however, stand up, eric. >> and the weird thing about it is, the candidate for senate in wisconsin is that he lives in southern california, on the beach. he lives as close to the sharks as you can get joining us now tammy baldwin, she's running for reelection in the united states senate in 2024 and she actually lives in wisconsin. senator, it doesn't get crazier than what we just heard, it must bother you that donald trump has to struggle through your name and doesn't know who all 100 senators are and doesn't know what he's talking about when he is talking about you but what were you thinking when you saw that? >> well first of all, the shark comments, oh my gosh, so i don't believe that my opponent believes with donald trump about the sharks because recently, last week, he skipped out of the wisconsin event to go back to his private beach on the pacific. but lawrence, the most important thing that donald trump did say on that rally stage in race scene, was that if he wins wisconsin, he wins the presidency. and, i know wisconsin is the battleground state. we could easily decide who controls the white house, who controls the senate and we could even help flip the house in wisconsin but look, when i hear those comments, i don't work for donald trump, i work for the people of wisconsin, and, while my opponent was busy fawning at donald trump throughout that rally, i'm fighting for my state. my opponent is a california bank owner, a multimillionaire, he is self by condensing his campaign, if he and trump win they could cut social security and medicare, they could nominate and confirm more extreme judges throughout the country. we cannot let that happen but if i'm going to win, i need everyone's help, please go to tammybaldwin.com and help us fight back. >> we also know if trump were to get the electoral college again via wisconsin, that he would easily make a deal with clarence thomas , 75 years old, to step down from the court, and samuel alito, both of them in the 70s and put on 40-year- old judges who will be there for the next 40 years, to go in and even more extreme direction on things like marriage equality and other things. >> it shows you that with the stroke of a pen, our rights can be protected and they can be taken away. this week, we observed the anniversaries of two major cases. on monday, the dobbs decision, that took away half of americans rights and freedoms, so we have fewer than our moms and our grandmothers had and also today, we celebrated the hodges case which granted marriage equality. and i think about the joy and relief that i felt when that decision came down. earlier today, i was with a couple who were the first to be married, nine years ago today in dane county, wisconsin. and they talked about how securing those rights to see one another in the hospital if, you know, the visitation rights that come with marriage. the other key rights, and freedoms that flow with marriage. so, we know that when we have courts deciding these critical rights and freedoms, we have to make sure that we have a democratic president and a democratic senate to make sure that we don't see more cases like dobbs in the future. because they made it clear in that case, they are not stopping there. >> senator baldwin, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight. >> my pleasure, thank you. tonight last word, is next. t every day, more dog people are deciding it's time for a fresh approach to pet food. developed with vets. made from real meat and veggies. portioned for your dog. and delivered right to your door. it's smarter, healthier pet food. can neuriva support your brain health? 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