hint of irony his love for the 10 commandments. susan and ashley join me to discuss the politics of all this, and more. running up the clock. the supreme court has just days to decide more than a dozen pivotal cases, including trump 's claim of presidential immunity. we discussed if justice delayed will be justice denied. debate countdown. in the final beacon before the two candidates come face-to- face in atlanta i talked with the biden attorney who we just learned is helping the president prep for his debate with his disgraced predecessor. as a former white house counsel, bauer weighs in on presidential immunity. auntie maxine's nightmare. coming face-to-face in court with the man who targeted her with racist death threats. i am jonathan capehart. this is "the saturday show." ♪ it's a busy day for donald trump ahead of what will be a very consequential week for the criminally convicted former president. and the country. in less than an hour trump will take the stage in philadelphia for his last rally before his first 2024 debate with president biden in atlanta on thursday. earlier today trump addressed the conservative faith and freedom coalition where he praised mobsters and railed against the justice system. >> the weaponization of law enforcement is the greatest threat to freedom in america today, i think. and nobody knows it better than me. the late and great al capone, right? >> [ laughter ] >> all the time, scarface, he didn't go through what i went through. i got indicted more than him, sir. for nothing .4 no crimes. >> trump also repeated his usual lies about voter fraud days before the supreme court is expected to weigh in on his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. the high court's right wing supermajority agreed to hear his claim more than three months ago. the delay decision is already a victory for trump. interfere election state has gone to legal limbo as the legal court and the rest of us await the supreme court's decision. and with each passing day it becomes less and less likely that before the next election, donald trump will be held accountable for trying to overturn the last one. former supreme court clerk leah lippmann says the justices dithering about trump is far more than fishy, it is rotten. she writes in the new york times , "there are of course explanations that have nothing to do with politics for wife ruling still has not been issued, but the reasons to think something is rotten at the court are impossible to ignore." she calls the claims for immunity outlandish, especially the idea that a president would have to have an impeachment conviction before they could be punished for any crime. as a reminder, this is what trump's lawyers said back in april about whether a commander in chief could get away with murder. >> if the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person, and he is a corrupt person, and he orders the military, or orders someone to assassinate him, is that within his official acts for which he can get immunity? >> it would depend on the hypothetical, but we can see that could well be an official act. >> it could? >> okay, look, i'm no lawyer, but you would think it would take less than 58 days to rule that nonsense unconstitutional. joining me now, mark joseph stern, senior writer for slate, and leah lippmann, professor at university of michigan law school at former supreme court law. clerk, who has also coast cohost strict scrutiny. thank you very much for both for coming to the saturday show. leah, you wrote in the new york times, there are of course explanations that have nothing to do with politics for why a ruling still has not been issued in the presidential immunity case. what could those explanations be? >> so, possible good-faith explanations include the cases argued in april, the supreme court still has cases outstanding from when they heard arguments in december, just yesterday it resulted case that was argued in november, so it's not surprising a case in april would fall to the bottom of the barrel as far as cases that end up being resolved closer to the term, but there are many reasons to think insufficient to explain what's going on here given how quickly they were solved with colorado 's case in favor of donald trump. there they quickly restored donald trump to the ballot in time for super tuesday, and they did so within 50 some days of deciding to hear the case, and here, it's been over 100 days since they decided to take the immunity case, and jack smith asked them to take it up two months before, so they have been delaying this case and acted much more quickly and many others. >> and mark, i want to drill down on something, because the immunity question boils down to the definition of official acts. so where will the justices draw the line on that one? >> i think this will be a muddled decision that does not give a clear victory to either side. i think the three liberals would love to give a clear victory to jack smith. they think all of this is ridiculous nonsense, and i tend to agree with them. the justices were looking for a compromise, so i think they will end up doing is in this back down to the lower court and have her parse the difference in the act trump's alleged to have committed here whether official within his presidential duties or unofficial like for instance trying to create a slate of fake electors who would give trump and his immunity, that will run out the clock more. there could be an appeal that could end up at scotus, but i think this is crucial, it takes the heart out of jack smith's case. the president weaponized his constitutional powers in order to halt the peaceful transition of power to a new president, and essentially stand in the way of democracy. that should be in the view of the special counsel in the united states government, that should be a criminal offense, and we should be able to put that in front of a jury and say this man committed a crime, but what the supreme court may well end up doing is to say anything trump did that fell under his constitutional authority, even if he was misusing that authority in an anti- constitutional way ththat receives protection. get ready for a big mess, in short. >> leah, listening to market, i'm thinking the legitimacy, if the court does what mark is predicting, the legitimacy of the court will be supremely no pun intended, supremely in question. and i want to come back to something you wrote in the new york times where you said this whole thing is rotten in terms of the delay in the immunity case. what is the evidence of something rotten? and does it get to the overall problem of the legitimacy in the eyes of the public, the legit is legitimacy of the court? >> there is so much wrong, and i don't want to take up your entire program, but in cases that benefit trump and the republican party, when you think to win challenge came to vaccine program, they managed to get that one out. even if there is disagreement that does not explain why it is taking a much longer and again they managed, the timing and ways that you can benefit one side versus the other. >> so let me-- wait, let me stop you right there, leah, because the question i was trying to get to is as a result of all this, do you think chief justice roberts has lost control of the court? >> absolutely. i mean, look at how his colleagues are behaving. you have justice alito practically thumbing his nose at democracy and law and everything else that should matter to this country. he hasn't even attempted. because, some of the other evidence, the fact that justice alito's home displayed multiple flex associated with the stop the steal movement, which is also behind the trump immunity claim, as well is another january 6th case that is outstanding at the supreme court that could take away some of the additional charges in the case. so yes, it seems he has lost control or has not done enough to bring it in. i guess from my perspective my concern is that the media might translate a split ruling of the kind that mark was describing as a compromise, or a middle-of- the-road balance, when in reality, it would decline outlandish position and hand donald trump a significant victory by allowing him to continue to run out the clock and prevent a jury of his peers from deciding whether he engaged in illegal election interference. >> mark, let me get you on one more thing you wrote, the great 8-1 decision that said, oh my, domestic abusers should not be able to have guns. great decision, but you write the headline of your piece is why it's not all good news. the supreme court did not foreclose future second amendment challenges to commonsense gun restrictions, the court left the door open and said well this one goes too far.we don't want to arm domestic abusers today, that i think anti-historical position on a very robust individual right to bear arms. i will also say this case gave the justices an opportunity to walk back some of their extremism, and a few of them took it, but not a lot of them acknowledged they were the reason that lower courts issued these decisions, arming domestic abusers, none of the conservatives would say we got too far, using language and bad history, and we need to take a more legible approach to the law. they would not admit a single bit of faults. that suggests they aren't really adjacent. they say we will let the courts run wild when it comes to commonsense gun safety laws. >> mark and leah, thank you both for coming to the saturday show. coming up, debate prep. we are days away from the first debate between president biden and donald trump. i spoke with the present's personal attorney who was playing the role of trump during biden's debate prep. >> goal is to take the performance of the opponent as close to what you think it will be as possible. it is not theatrical. plus, vice president kamala harris described the stark choice voters have between the president and trump. what she told 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>> you are asking the right question. the immediate impact, people are wondering that given this case, given potential outcomes of this case, if those cases will go to trial this year. but the question you're asking, the long term, is a question of paramount importance for future presidencies. so there's no doubt about it. there's a long history of wrestling with that issue beginning with the office of legal counsel opinions, in 1973, and 2000. presidents could be investigated but not indicted while in office. now, we will have a much more fuller treatment outside the executive branch by the court of these kinds of issues. >> let's talk about your memoir. it takes us through some of the most difficult political battles you have faced. which one was the most informative and guide your thinking today? >> so-- that an interesting question. i never looked at it that way. obviously, given an election cycle, resident obama, president biden, i thought of those moments and have tried to draw conclusions about american politics at the time, but it's the beginning of my involvement, and it's the aggregate tracing of our politics that i'm concerned with. that comes with the conclusion that there really needs to be a call for the restoration of ethics and politics, responsibility on the part of people and governance in politics who the health of our norms in their hands. >> are you shocked by how quickly ethics seem to have eroded? to my mind, in one presidential term, that of donald trump's. >> yes, i don't think there's question recent years have accelerated it. you don't have just lip service. richard nixon would have said of course, i think the department of justice needs to be independent on law enforcement decisions, that's obviously not the view of the former president, and many of those with him are challenging what we thought were common understandings about what is necessary for the health of the democracy. >> right now, so that answer is focused on the executive branch, but does that extend to an erosion of ethics at the legislative branch, or the judicial branch? >> one of my earliest memories and politics was reading about a sharp exchange on the floor of the senate between hubert humphrey and barry goldwater. they were seen then walking arm in arm to have a friendly conversation. they couldn't disagree more about issues of the day, and now you see an aggressiveness and competitiveness, of this idea to reject, they do not appear to be laying aside differences going arm in arm, that before everything else and at the end of everything else they are united states senators, and they uphold the sanctity and processes of the institution. it has gotten so deeply politicized you hear of members who behave toward one another and continue to behave toward one another in a way that is really corrosive of the traditions and fundamental norms of the institution. >> you write, the trump campaign was constructed around his maniacal diesel to accept rejection. we knew what was coming in the event that he lost his reelection bid. this is in 2020. when did it click for you to come up with these plans? i just want to point out immobilized law firms to come up with different topics for contingency plans in the event trump lost. >> yes, well, donald trump has never made any bones about his belief that he cannot lose an election unless it is rigged. bear in mind when he lost to ted cruz in the iowa caucuses, he said that election was rigged, so he was not hiding any of this. since the early days of him making those statements he has turned it into a party program, and that we have a wave of election deniers in a significant swath of the party that pledge their allegiance to trump, and that a change. we had plenty of notice that's what we were looking at. he's made no bones about it since. and so the legal team put untold numbers of hours into contingency planning and given how vigorously he tried to contest the election, how unsuccessful he contested the election. >> before you go, back in 2020 you played donald trump in debate prep. you watched hours upon hours of video of trump not only as candidate, but going way back into his life, given what you have seen over the last four years, how would you advise the trump and debate prep? how should that person best prepare president biden for the trump he will face next week? >> without speaking to this particular debate, i would say any debate prep, i've done it for other entities in other roles, the goal is to take the performance of the opponent is close to what you think it's going to be as possible. it is not theatrical, it's an attempt to give the opponent a feel for what they would likely face. audio, video, whatever it could be. and so that's how it gets done. >> [ laughter ] a great none answer answer. it just wasn't the answer i was hoping for. bob bauer, thank you very much for coming to the saturday show. still to come, a new documentary about the history of the black barbie doll that paved the way for more representation and diversity in the toy industry. the designer of the doll, ms. perkins, joins me later in the show. first, donald trump weighs in on the louisiana law that demands placing the 10 commandments in public classrooms. what he said and why it matters after the break. “the darkness of bipolar depression made me feel like i was losing interest in the things i love. then i found a chance to let in the lyte.” discover caplyta. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta is proven to deliver significant symptom relief from both bipolar i & ii depression. and in clinical trials, movement disorders and weight gain were not common. caplyta can cause serious side effects. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. anti-depressants may increase these risks in young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. report fever, confusion, or stiff muscles, which may be life threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements which may be permanent. common side effects include sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, and dry mouth. these aren't all the side effects. in the darkness of bipolar i & ii depression, caplyta can help you let in the lyte. ask your doctor about caplyta. find savings and support at caplyta.com. my daughter and i finally had that conversation. oh, no, not about that. about what comes next in life. for her. i may not be in perfect health, but i want to stay in my home, where my family visits often and where my memories are. i can do it with help from a prep cook, wardrobe assistant and stylist, someone to help me live right at home. life's good. when you have a plan. ♪ ♪ (♪♪) when life spells heartburn... how do you spell relief? r-o-l-a-i-d-s rolaids' dual-active formula begins to neutralize acid on contact. r-o-l-a-i-d-s spells relief. heading into the first presidential debate on thursday night, the presidential candidates are showing at their arguments why the other guy is unfit for the presidency. trump and allies have argued against president biden's age. while he has yet to hear on his community claim. more on an exclusive interview with morning joe's mika brzezinski with the vice president. >> this debate will make clear the contrast. at the many issues in the country and our world that are complex and nuanced, november, 2024, is binary. and when you look at the difference, i would ask people to really imagine what the world will be like on january 20th, 2025. on the one hand you have joe biden who has spent his life and career fighting for the well-being of other people including healthcare. on the other hand, you have the former president who spent full- time when he was president trying to rid of the affordable care act. if he is successful over 100 million people would be stripped of healthcare coverage. you have on the one hand joe biden who under his leadership bipartisan support for the first meaningful gun safety legislation in 30 years, and on the other hand the former president who, when speaking of survivors of horrendous gun violence is get over it, and will probably talk about how to the nra about how he did nothing on the issue, and i could go on. i think the debate will make clear the contrast between our president, the current president who works on behalf of the american people, fights for the american people, and a former president who spends full-time fighting for himself. >> you can watch the full interview first thing monday on morning joe. republican strategist and msnbc political analyst, susan, and former communications director for vice president harris, and former speaker nancy pelosi aid . susan, ashley, your reactions to what we just heard from the vice president in that clip with her interview with mika ? >> she was clearly setting the stage and the narrative that the biden-harris teams want going into the debate. it's the narrative you should have. however, i don't know if it will be something that she will be able to see for at least the first 10 or 15 minutes of the debate as things shake out, because one of the things that is so important, and when we talk about the contrast that needs to be set up is it is important for listeners to know it's not that they will have their microphones shut off if they go too long, they will both be off unless it is their turn to speak, which means donald trump can just keep yelling and going off and having president biden look a little startled as a result. i am sure that's something the biden team is addressing, but overall, once we get past the first 10 or 15 minutes, and they have to talk about the issues i think it will be a startling comparison and one that will favor biden. >> ashley? what do you think? >> i think she is absolutely right. this is about contrast, but my advice would be too often democrats try to out-nerd our selves, with statistics and all the stuff that really flies over the head of the audience. my suggestion would be that the president really needs to do more storytelling, tell the ark of the progress we have made as a nation that he has done big bipartisan things from guns to infrastructure. how he has built back the economy as the strongest in the world after the pandemic. my other suggestion or advice would be the day after the debate is almost as important as the actual debate itself. my suggestion would be the need to put a real face around the process. like my cousin who got $100,000 in student loads canceled, she should be on stage talking, you know, it makes the message much more salient. >> your thoughts on one other thing, because trump comment hanging the 10 commandments in classrooms. watch this. >> who likes the 10 commandments going up in the schools, by the way? they think it is such a bad thing, i said, has anyone read thou shalt not steal? has anybody read this? >> has he even read the 10 commandments ashley? no one is saying the 10 commandments are bad. but explain why mandating their placement in public schools is so alarming. >> i think to your point it's clear that trump hasn't actually read the 10 commandments, and the second being most important, which is love thy neighbor. i think the other thing about trump is is that the joke is always on us. he stands before christians arguing we need to put the 10 commandments in school while loading from scarface, it's like the joke is on us. there's nothing about trump that aligns with christianity and being a christian. when i say this you have a president who was convicted of sexual assault and more against women, 34 counts of cheating, lying, and stealing to his point. so for me it is like folks have to stop falling for this. it is kind of laughable to some degree. >> susan, we have the reporting that indicates donald trump may have narrowed his vice presidential pick down to north dakota governor doug burgum, ohio senator jd vance, florida senator marco rubio, and trump told reporters that he has picked his vice president. he has not told that person yet, but that person will be at the debate. i mean, what in the apprentice-- [ laughter ] who do you think it's going to be? >> i would lead towards doug burgum from north dakota. mostly because he is as plain and flat as can be. he has no platform whatsoever. he will fill the bill as trump sees as his job is just to stand there, that's it, nothing else. he probably likes the fact he hasn't made his own money. but the job of vice president, when you are trump's vice president is to have no platform and no voice while the other two senators to have platforms and do have voices and do have a lot of media clips out there that would send necessarily so good to be his running mate. >> i love how you say that the governor of the flat state of north dakota is flat. [ laughter ] i say that as someone who was married to a north dakota resident. leah and susan and ashley, thank you so much. a texas man who sent racist death threats is now facing prison time. congressman maxine waters talks about coming face to face with him in court and the rising threat of political violence against elected officials. als. d insects, plus it's safe for use around people and pets— - anywhere — anytime. - gotcha. zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. you know what's brilliant? boring. think about it. boring is the unsung catalyst for bold. what straps bold to a rocket and hurtles it into space? boring does. boring makes vacations happen, early retirements possible, and startups start up. because it's smart, dependable, and steady. all words you want from your bank. for nearly 160 years, pnc bank has been brilliantly boring so you can be happily fulfilled... which is pretty un-boring if you think about it. with chewy, it's never been easier to get their favorite toy delivered again, come on, let go. and again, and again. good luck. get whatever they love delivered right on time. save 35% on your first autoship order with chewy. 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(vo) new and existing customers get iphone 15 on us when they trade in any iphone. verizon chris counahan for leaffilter— the permanent gutter solution that protects your home in so many ways, it takes more than one chris to explain it. but together, i think we've got the job covered. like leaffilter's has your gutters covered. protecting you from getting up on this thing to clean out your gutters ever again. and you know how else leaffilter protects your home? with our lifetime transferable no clogs warranty. we'd be glad to come out for a free no-hassle inspection. to schedule your free inspection, call 833-leaffilter today or visit leaffilter.com threats against lawmakers are on the rise again after hitting an all-time high in 2021, when donald trump's followers stormed the capitol on january 6th. last year the capitol police investigated more than 8000 threats against members of congress, increasing from 2022. a spokesman for the department addicted 2024 will be "a very busy year for our special agents. this week a texas man who vowed to kill congress woman maxine waters, was sentenced to a $10,000 find you and fine and prison time. he doubled down when police warned him to stop. congressman waters attended the sentence hearing, telling the courts it gave her nightmares and made her and her family feel for fear for their lives. she described herself as, haunted. joining me now is democratic congresswoman maxine waters of california, the ranking member of the house financial services committee. grossman waters, as always, thank you for coming to the saturday show. you've been in the public eye for decades. why were these threats, particularly painful? >> well you know, it was sinister. he was a man who continued to call four times, and he made racial comments. he basically said, not only was he going to put a bullet between my eyes, he was going to cut my throat. and i want to tell you it did get to me. i am not someone who walks around, but this was more sinister. it was deadly, and so i am haunted by those kinds of comments coming from him. >> congresswoman, what made you want to face your harasser in court? >> i wanted to see who this human being was, and when he saw me, what was it about me that made him want to kill me to mark what did i say? what did i do that made him want to slit my throat or portable between my eyes? so i listened to him, and i hope he listens to me. i had my children in court with me, my daughter was there, my son was there, and they are fearful that i am going to be killed. and of course my staff has to endure these kinds of threats. this is not the first one we've had. we've had some others sentenced and put in jail, but this one seems more consistent and seemed more serious. again, it seems as if this man was intent on not only threatening me, but he said he had people in the los angeles area, some of his friends or groups of people that he works with that were going to get me. that they had a contract out on my life. >> how concerned are you a congresswoman, about your safety, if donald trump is reelected? >> well, i'm very concerned. not only about my safety and the safety of members of congress, i am concerned about the safety of so many people in this country, particularly people of color. donald trump has said that if he does not win it'll be fraud. and because it's going to be fraud, there's going to be blood in the streets. he threatens about a civil war, and he threatens there will be violence, so i say all this talk is motivational with many of those who are racist, who are sitting at home listening to him, and they are taking him up on his threats even before the elections take place so it's about thousands, maybe millions of people being threatened and being at risk because of donald trump and his desire to wreak revenge and havoc on everything and everybody. >> congresswoman, really quickly, 60 years ago this week three activists, mike schwerner, andrew goodman, they were murdered for trying to register black mississippi residents during the voting summer. what do you see of their legacy as the nation faces more threats of political violence like the ones you have faced? >> first of all, i want to thank all those who joined in the civil rights moment who are not black, who are not people of color, who joined with us to try and get justice and equality in this country. we see they were killed, they were murdered, and i do believe that having listened to donald trump so many times, and the insurrection that took place on the house of representatives in congress, on the capitol, on the capitol grounds, that we could we could be in for more killings like that, and trump has to take responsibility for what he is saying about blood in the streets and violence if he's not elected to be the president of the united states of america. >> as always, congresswoman maxine waters, thank you for coming to the saturday show. >> thank you. a new documentary explores the creation of the first black barbie doll and how it inspired a generation. the designer of the doll, kitty black perkins, joined me next, to discuss why black barbie was so important to so many women and girls. and girls. 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(dog bark) it's just smarter, healthier pet food. it's amazing what real food can do. change begin with a simple question, why don't we make a barbie that looks like me? in the 1960s, mitchell asked that very question. in 19 80 kitty black perkins pioneered the design of the first black barbie. the tagline, she's black, she's beautiful, she's dynamite, the doll became a cultural icon symbolizing the importance of representation in the toy industry and beyond. now, a new netflix documentary takes a look back at the journey of the black women who helped reshape the barbie brand. take a look. >> crowning this doll as barbie, you know, the fight for we cannot just call this a fashion doll, or-- this is a barbie, too. it was telling the world black is beautiful, too. the step forward that was made when they called the black doll barbie, and not some other name, was it allowed the black girl to be the hair one of the story. >> so proud of black women for calling out things that are important to us in spaces where we are often times silenced. >> and that last person you saw is the person you see on your screen, kitty black perkins, former chief designer for mattel , and designer of the first black barbie. she is featured in the documentary. ms. perkins, welcome to "the saturday show." how did you go about designing the first black barbie, so she truly represented black women in looks, and style? >> oh, thank you so much, jonathan, for having me on, and i am a fan. i would say i started, because i wanted the doll to look like me. and with that in mind i was able to pull together a team that would actually achieve all of that. we gave barbie a short natural, we gave her a great medium skin tone, we gave her very nice features, like we gave her sicker thicker lips, a wider nose, we wanted the stall to reflect we wanted this doll to reflect others. >> can you talk to me about the importance of representation? what struck me about the documentary was the pain of not seeing dolls that look like them was very present for couple of the women interviewed in the documentary. women who are not in their teens or early 20s, these are fully mature women, for whom the pain of not seeing a doll like themselves is still there for them. >> well i have to tell you that myself, i did not play with barbie when i was a little girl. i did not even have black dolls, and lack dolls, it pays tribute to a child's self- esteem. my self-esteem was very low when i moved to california, and i had it, and i had to work at it. when the opportunity came for me to do a black doll it was something that needed to be done . it is something every girl needs to be able to have and play with. and the idea of black barbie being the first of her kind is it's unbelievable. it's been fantastic. >> let me get your reaction to something that is said in the documentary. ms. mitchell said when you came to mattel, what she says, you were a real life barbie. you were sheikh, you were fabulous but you drove a convertible sports car, and your hair blue in the wind. what was your reaction? >> i'm the kind of person who does not take compliments very well, but i am very grateful she looked at me and that aspect. i needed a lot of work when i first arrived, in los angeles. i looked at all the beautiful black women around me, and my whole idea was to become that. and when i was allowed to interview for mattel, i have course wanted to look the part, because i was told if i look the part i had a better chance of getting the job. and i did. >> i want to point out one thing . shonda rhymes writes, i didn't think they were dolls, they were representations of who i wanted to be at a certain point. and she points out it is no accident olivia pope from scandal looked and dressed like barbie. kitty black perkins, designer of the first black barbie, what a joy to have you on. thank you so much for coming on the saturday show. >> thank you so much, jonathan. i said, i'm a true fan. >> thank you. more of the saturday show when we come back. ome back. that helps treat and prevent, all in one. to those with migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. it's time we all shine. talk to a healthcare provider about nurtec odt from pfizer. old spice gentleman's super hydration body wash. 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