podcast. watch and listen for free wherever you get your podcast. you can also catch the velshi content on youtube. stay where you are. charles coleman picks up our coverage on the katie phang show. it starts right now. good afternoon, i'm charles coleman junior in for my friend and colleague, katie phang. live from msnbc headquarters in new york city. and we have a lot to talk about. here is the week that was. let's start in florida where judge aileen cannon held a hearing yesterday. over donald trump's motion to dismiss is classified documents case. now his lawyers are arguing that special counsel jackson his appointment was unconstitutional. trump's legal team is going against president and arguing that a special counsel must be appointed by law and is subject to senate confirmation. judge cannon, however, appeared at least somewhat skeptical of trump's position, specifically taking issue with the notion that jack smith appointment was akin to a shadow government. while it does appear unlikely that trump's indictment would be dismissed and the documents case, the fact that such a trivial legal argument would be entertained is, in and of itself, a major win for the former president who has continued to successfully run out the clock. joining me now for a round up of all the legal news this week is my friend and colleague, barbara quaid, and is a bc legal analyst, former attorney of michigan, and the cohost of the sisters-in-law podcast. it's so good to have you with us. really excited to talk about all the things we have had going on this week, but i have to start in florida. what were your big takeaways from judge cannon's hearing yesterday? >> probably relief more than anything. the reporting is that she did seem skeptical of this challenge to the special counsel appointment. illegality here has been decided by a number of different courts. the concept of a special counsel and independent counsel was upheld by the supreme court in a big case called morrison versus olsen. as you said, the big surprise really was the fact that she and the oldest in this argument. she had a four hour argument, she appointed friends of the court to provide additional arguments in addition to that which the parties put on. it seemed to me that most judges would have decided this on the papers quite quickly. i have been trying to think of an analogy that may be ordinary people could understand, so imagine you have invited a few friends to dinner and you are trying to decide whether to serve red wine or white wine. you think about it for a minute, you give it some thought, you think about what you're serving, and you make a decision. instead what she did was invite and experts on red wine, experts on white wine, and sit them down and listen to them for four hours about what she should serve at her dinner party. it sounds like she asked all the right questions and is voting in the right direction, but i am really curious that she would spend this much time on this issue. >> all the things i know about wine i know from the bootleg sommeliers, my friends. we have to talk while your talk. if you are listening to judge cannon about this hearing, and you are thinking about the things that you heard, there was a bit of talk about merrick garland and his involvement. to what degree should we read anything into that? and if so, what should we read into it? the fact that she was seemingly concerned about the presence or involvement of the ag in this case? >> you know, it is relevant to the conversation, because the precise legal question is whether jack smith is a principal legal officer or an inferior legal officer. and so, the theory is that if he is principal, it is unconstitutional because he would be required to be confirmed by the senate. and if he is simply inferior, that means he works for someone else. in this case, the attorney general. it seems to me that the regulations themselves are what you should be looking at, not the application of exactly how the mechanics have applied in this case. if anything, it seemed like she was delving into some of the deliberative practices that have actually occurred behind the scenes here. you know, executive branch, lawyers don't like to indulge exactly how the mechanics work, because that could tend to infringe upon privileges on the inside. so, i am not sure why she thought it was necessary to know about how this case is unfolded, versus how the regulations provide, which is that the attorney general appoints a special counsel, can remove the special counsel, and must approve the major decisions that that person makes. and so, i think that she was, perhaps, just trying to understand herself, exactly how it was working here. but i am not surprised that the justice department pushed back to guest this peek behind the curtain. >> speaking of a peek behind the curtain, there have been new reports that come out that basically, before judge cannon took this case, there were other federal judges including the chief judge from the southern district of florida, who advised her not to take it. i merely because she was a trump appointee, and we all know that. do you think that some of the rulings that she has made since then, combined with what we know about the advice that she was given from other judges play a factor down the road in terms of her continued involvement, staying on this case at all? >> yeah, that's a really interesting reporting, isn't it? quite extraordinary that judges would ask another judge to step aside. you know, i like to presume good faith by both judge cannon and the judges involved here. sometimes a chief judge will step in from the random appointment of judges if a judge has a caseload that is too heavy, that there is a conflict of interest, and offered to reassign the case. so, i presume good faith in all of those actions. but i think the chief judge likely saw with the rest of us all, which is in light of the very strange rulings that judge cannon made, back when she had the search warrant case, it did raise at least the appearance for the public to question her impartiality. and it has only gotten worse as she has made other rulings that are so curiously favorable to donald trump, including, in my mind, the oddest one, which was the request the parties engage, her word, with the presidential records act in the jury instructions months before a trial date has even been set. and certainly one that is a non sequitur, because the presidential records act clarifies that presidential records belong to the people and not to the person who served as president. so, it, i think, has only added to the concerns about her impartiality as time goes on. but, of course, she is, herself, independent. she has been appointed by the president, confirmed by the senate. so if the case is assigned to her, it is hers to keep until either she recuses or a court of appeals recuses her for her. >> curiously favorable. i love that phrasing, and you will probably hear me borrow it at some point. we've been in florida for long enough, let's go to d.c.. this immunity, the presidential immunity opinion that everybody is waiting for. give me your sort of got in terms of what you think happened. i know what i think, but i am sitting in the chair, so i could ask you what you think. what should we expect or be prepared for? >> yeah, also curiously favorable in terms of this delay. i saw, recently, that when the supreme court decided the watergate nixon tape case, it took them exactly 60 days from oral argument to decision in that case. we have been waiting over two months for decision in this case, and every day that goes by makes it less likely that the trial in this case will occur before the election. and so, delay is very much part of donald trump's game here, and it has been disappointing that the supreme court has waited so long to decide this case. i think, in the end, they are going to find that donald trump is not immune from prosecution for this case. but they are trying to figure out where to draw the lines. one of the things that justice gorsuch said during oral arguments was that i am not worried about this case, but we are deciding this case for the ages. of course, as chief justice john roberts has said, if you can decide a case narrowly, then you should decide a case narrowly. i don't know why they feel the need to decide for the ages. just decide this case and get on with it. i would imagine there is disagreement, concurring, dissenting opinions going back and forth. and we won't get this decision until next week or maybe even the week after. the clock is running out. so sometime within the next couple of weeks we are going to get a decision here. i think it will be favorable to the government, and i think this case will proceed. the only question now is whether the trial can occur before the election, and i am skeptical that that can happen. >> barbara mcquade, who i have a curiously favorable affinity for, particularly when she is talking about red and white wine. you so much for being here this morning. , the katie phang show. black voters and the ballot. why some black voters in key states say that they are souring on both donald trump and biden. what democrats have to do to make inroads with that key constituency ahead of november. senator reverend rafael warnick joins me after the break to discuss. i know we had some technical difficulties at the start, but we are working on getting that altogether. just stay tuned for more on the katie phang show. we will be right back. back. ♪♪ ♪♪ citi's industry leading global payments solutions help their clients move money around the world seamlessly in over 180 countries... and help a partner like the world food programme as they provide more than food to people in need. together, citi and the world food programme empower families across the globe. ♪♪ i thought i was sleeping ok... but i was waking up so tired. then i tried new zzzquil sleep nasal strips. their four—point lift design opens my nose for maximum air flow. so, i breathe better. and we both sleep better. and stay married. 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(inner monologue) my kids don't know what they want. you know who knows what she wants? me! i want a massage, in amalfi, from someone named giancarlo. and i didn't live in that shoebox for years. not just— with empower, we get all of our financial questions answered. so you don't have to worry. i guess i'll get the caviar... just kidding. join 18 million americans and take control of your financial future with a real time dashboard and real live conversations. empower. what's next. a slow network is no network for business. that's why more choose comcast business. and now we're introducing ultimate speed for business, our fastest plans yet. we're up to 12 times faster than verizon, at&t, and t-mobile. and existing customers could even get up to triple the speeds at no additional cost. from the company with 99.9% network reliability and advanced cyber security, it's ultimate speed for ultimate business. and it's all from comcast business. welcome back. when it comes to the black vote in november, it is a case of good news bad news for president biden and the democrats. first up, the good news. for biden, at least according to a recent usa today suffolk university poll of michigan and pennsylvania, a majority of black voters and those crucial swing states say that they would vote for president biden over donald trump. sounds good enough. but here's the bad news. while still above 50%, that support has actually fallen at least 20 points in both of those states compared to 2020. trump and his maga faithful are hoping to jump on this with outreach events and trump himself speaking today at temple university in philadelphia, which is a democratic stronghold, to say the least. but the concern from democrats should not be if trump will win the black vote in november. in 2020, he took less than 10% of it. the real concern is whether he can chip away enough at biden's lead it to turn already tight race in his favor. joining me now is democratic senator from georgia, alpha man, pastor, my mom is pastor at his legendary ebenezer baptist church. raphael warnock. senator warnock, take you so much for being here. let's talk about this poll. what are your thoughts there, and why do you think there may be a struggle with the biden and campaign grabbing the level of lack voters that they had four years ago? >> well, thank you so very much. since you already let the cat out of the bag and told the world i'm your mom is pastor, here is what she will tell you. that i preached last sunday, long before i was a united states senator i was a preacher of the gospel. the gospel literally means good news. though i preach the good news last sunday, i've got to preach it again. because there are some folks who didn't hear it. there are folks who heard it who need to hear it again. and our job between now and november is to tell the good news of what the biden harris administration has accomplished, particularly for african-americans. and i would be nervous if i didn't have good news to share. here's the good news. black wealth is up. up some 60% since before the pandemic. when you talk about student debt relief, something that is near and dear to my heart as the first college graduate in my family, this administration has canceled the student debt of some 5 million americans. we think about end of the year, it will be 30 million. we have done about $160 billion of student debt relief. we have invested some $16 billion and historically black colleges and universities, the black and white racial wealth gap is narrowing, and black household wealth is up. so i know that there is work to be done. people are still struggling after coming out of a once in a century pandemic. the question is, who is going to stand up for black america? joe biden has receipts. donald trump has enough problems of his own. >> senator warnock, i wanted to follow-up with you there. do you think that in terms of the framing and messaging, because everything you are talking about, the strong points that favor joe biden being the choice for black americans, for example, that seems to be getting lost in terms of a certain segment of the population, particularly black men, not feeling like they are being spoken to. so, do you think that given everything that is a plus right now, that the biden campaign has to work with, that the messaging is crafted in a way that is going to reach the voters that they need to turn out? >> well, you know, black voters cannot be taken for granted. i like the fact that the biden harris campaign is not taking black voters for granted. this idea that black folks will just show up is wrongheaded. and i believe that joe biden understands that. kamala harris certainly understands it, which is why as we move forward into this campaign you will see the ways in which they have already invested far more than donald trump, in reaching out to black communities, even as they work to lift them up. you will see them ramp up over the next few months, in order to tell that story. the job isn't done until november 5th. >> senator, i want you to take a listen with me to north carolina lieutenant governor mark robinson, who spoke this week about democrats and the black vote. let's see what he has to say. >> you know the democrats were the ones that ran slavery. they found out a different way to enslave people. instead of giving them slave shacks and shackles, they decided they were going to give them welfare checks and the . >> i want to put aside some of the foolishness in terms of the antics that we may have been looking at. that was not a pulpit. it was a lectern. nevertheless, what i want to ask you is is it a good thing if we have an appeal from both political parties for the black vote? putting aside for a moment the level of sincerity or legitimacy of the appeal, we like to say we are not a monolith. is it a good thing if we have folks on both sides saying our names? >> look, at the end of the day, this election is a binary choice. and i want to be very clear to the folks who are watching me, anything you do other than show up to vote for joe biden and kamala harris is going to put donald trump, a convicted felon, a little bit closer to the white house. we have always had characters like mark robinson and the african-american community. and there is a reason why he appeals to a certain part, a certain segment, particularly of the trump base. he trades in racial stereotypes, as we just heard a moment ago. he is who he is. white supremacy is white supremacy, even if it shows up in blackface. we have a binary choice in this election. it is an existential threat that we are dealing with, not only to our democracy, but to the progress that we have made over the last 50 years in the african-american community. and so, the question for voters is do you want to go backwards? or do you want to go forward? i think that the contrast could not be more stark here. and this is not the first time that we have seen somebody who looks like mark robinson tried to do the bidding of people like donald trump. donald trump sent herschel walker to the state of georgia to run against me, as if like people are so unsophisticated that they could not tell the difference between that dude and me. well, the rest is history. here i sit, and come 2024 the biden harris campaign will help black americans to see the work that we have already been doing, the work we continue to do, and they will do for them the same thing they did for me. >> senator reverend raphael warnock, listen. you are not bad for an alpha man, no matter what anybody else says. make sure when you see my mama in the choir you give her a big hug and kiss for me. thank you for joining me this morning. >> your mom is wonderful. i look forward to seeing you in church, brother. >> yes sir. and don't forget, you can still catch my msnbc special, black man in america, the road to 24 where jermaine lee and myself offer a candid look at america through the eyes of black men. speaking with congressman hakeem jeffries, civil rights attorney ben crump, and so many more. watch black men in america, the road to 2024, streaming on msnbc.com and peacock now. coming up after the break, muted microphones and empty seats. how the unconventional rules for next week's biden trumped debate hosted by cnn could have unexpected consequences for both campaigns. what we know about how the candidates are planning to face- off ahead of thursday. that is next on the katie phang show. stay tuned. child diagnosed with can cer because the research is being shared all over the world. so, i didn't think i needed swiffer. until... i saw how easily it picked up my hair every time i dried it. it only takes a minute. look at that! the heavy duty cloths are extra thick for amazing trap and lock. even for his hair. wow! and for dust i love my heavy duty duster. the fluffy fibers trap dust on contact up high and all around without having to lift a thing. i'm so hooked! you'll love swiffer or your money back! >> i am totally under leveraged, because the assets are extremely good and we have a very, i built -- guess what, a lot of people died. a lot more going to die unless he gets a lot smarter, a lot quicker. >> stand back and standby. >> i'm not going to answer the question. >> why would you answer that question? >> the radical left -- >> would you shut up, man? >> rematch! this thursday president biden and donald trump will face-off in the first debate of the 2024 election, hosted by cnn. with biden's record under a microscope, trump's 34 convictions are fair game, and a new mute button will be injected into the debate so candidates cannot talk over one another. this is a showdown that is surely going to be one to watch. joining me now is matthew dowd, chief got into campaign in the 2024 present campaign and msnbc legal analyst, as well as author of revelations on the river, killing a nation, healing ourselves. and ferdinando monday, democratic host and msnbc political analyst. lots of firsts on the stage. not never before in the modern area have we seen this sort of debate so early in the general election season. one guy has got convictions, and he is on the presidential debate stage. both of them are getting up there in age, to put it mildly. and a mute button. ferdinand, what are your immediate thoughts on what we can expect from each candidate? >> well, charles, i think this debate is uniquely situated to give in and manage structurally and fundamentally going into president biden. and the reason, charles, is because trump's acts, his antics, his histrionics is snake oil salesman type approach , it really doesn't work in the setting that was negotiated by the biden campaign. i thought very smartly. the lack of a mute button, or the mute button's existence, the lack of an audience. a narcissist like trump needs to have that audience energy to feed off of, to basically tell him if he's going too far, if his lines are working. without that, it really reveals trump like he is, for the unhinged madman really does not make a lot of sense. and it also gives biden the opportunity in a trial like setting to prosecute the case. i think, short of president biden have a physical meltdown or something negative happening, feeding into the very false cliche cartoon stereotypes that the trump campaign would like to think biden is, i think president biden is going to walk away from this debate the clear winner. >> yeah, i am very fascinated by the notion of this mute button. it is something that, forget a debate, i just want to have around so i can do that when people are speaking nonsense. matthew, you have been in this space before in terms of helping prep folks for debates. if you are prepping either candidate, or really both candidates, let's run down what you feel like the biggest areas of vulnerability are, starting with president biden and going to donald trump. >> great to be with you. first, i think they first need to recognize that, i believe that my expectation is that this will be the largest audience to ever watch a debate. both because of the two candidates, donald trump and his chaos, and the incumbent joe biden. but also because the moment we are in, in our history that we have not faced before, in my view, since for the civil war. so huge audience, in the millions, huge audience simulcast by all the networks including this one in the course of this. i think joe biden's main job in this debate is to give people a permission structure to allow them to say that he is old, that he may be somebody that they don't like in certain ways, but do you really want that guy? do you really want your democracy destroyed? do you really want your freedoms ruined? do you really want the economy in shambles? do you really want us to go back to what it was in the last year or two of president trump's presidency in the course of this? i think he needs to hit him in the mouth quickly, because i don't think donald trump will do well if he is hit straight in the face with some punches on dictatorship and all the things, from all donald trump's own words, joe biden does not have to make anything up. he could just repeat donald trump's own words back to him. to me, that is what joe biden mainly needs to do. start off strong, and give people the permission structure to allow them to say i think you are old, but i don't want that guy. >> matthew, i want to continue to delve down on this, because i happen to agree, as much is the structure of the debate, the fact that there is not a live audience there, the fact that donald trump cannot sort of talk drastically over president biden, all of that skews towards president biden. help me understand if donald trump does have a chance of coming out victorious in this debate, what does that look like? >> well, i have been on the air number of times and i cannot river the last time i disagreed with him on something. and i don't disagree with him here in the course of this. donald trump is a chaos candidate, and the structure of the debate defines it as a way to eliminate as much chaos as possible. so the mute button, no audience, takes donald trump out of his comfort zone in this way. i think donald trump being the narcissist, as ferdinand said, i think the argument that donald trump needs to make is almost the exact opposite of joe biden, which is, you may not like me but i don't, in his way, i don't like what joe biden has done to the country in the last four years, and try to prosecute the case objectively about joe biden and the administration over the last four years. i don't think donald trump has the capacity not to take every single thing personally. so as soon as joe biden it sort of knocks in a couple of times on some attacks, donald trump, if he is given a game plan, which i don't think he will ever stick to, but if he is given a game plan in the course of this is not going to be able to not make about himself. and if he makes it about himself, joe biden is winning. >> ferdinand, i'm going to end with you. this mute button is something that i think will likely be used very liberally. do you think that any of the antics that donald trump usually employs when there is a crowd present, you know, the rolling of the eyes, the gesticulations, all the things that he does, do you expect to see some of that in the silence of his actual voice being heard? and if so, how do you think that is going to play out in the long term in terms of how people view who wins the debate? >> well, charles, just like matthew said. trump needs for this event to be a chaotic event. he is going to throw as many verbal bombs, trying create as many smokescreens as possible. it is just that this format that the biting campaign, i thought very brilliantly it negotiated dilutes the impact. also, don't forget, not having the third-party candidate there, which for trump is horrible news. he would've loved to have someone that he could pivot off and bounce off. that is something that is going to react against them, as well. it is also important to note in the gamesmanship here, something fascinating happened to me this week that i saw, that was revealed, and it has to do with the positioning and the coin flip that the biting campaign chose. they won the coin flip on who would go last in this debate. and normally, when you play a football game, you kind of like to go on offense first. in this case, the biting campaign said no, we want trump to speak last. we want him to have the last word. their choice. and i think what that message sends is they want this to be a referendum on donald trump. they want the crazy to linger out there in the air and have americans walk away from this debate saying oh, my god. this guy is even worse than he was in 2020, let alone 2016. >> this is the rematch that apparently america wanted. matthew dowd and ferdinando mondi, thank you both for helping unpack that. we will be watching very intently. coming up next, green card giveaway. no, that is not the name of a very bad game show. it is actually donald trump's campaign on cleanup crew after the former president proposed green cards for noncitizens who graduate college. plus, how president biden is actually moving to make the visa process easier for daca recipients and dreamers. keep it right here, we have more on msnbc when we return. my frequent heartburn had me taking antacid after antacid all day long but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. dangerous ladders. gutter muck. yuck. no wonder you hate cleaning your gutters. good thing there's leaffilter. our patented filter technology keeps leaves and debris out of your gutters forever. guaranteed. call 833- leaffilter to get started. and get the permanent gutter solution that ends clogs for good. they took the time to answer all of our questions. they really put us at ease. end clogged gutters for good. call 833.leaf.filter, or visit leaffilter.com today. this week president biden march the 12th anniversary of daca by announcing executive action on immigration. the far-reaching policy grants protection to the undocumented spouses of american citizens, shielding an estimated 500,000 people from deportation. >> we can both secure the border and provide legal pathways to citizenship. we have to acknowledge that the patience and goodwill of the american people is being tested by their fears at the border. they don't understand a lot of it. these are the fears my predecessor is trying to play on when he says immigrants, immigrants. his words are poison the blood of the country. i am not interested in playing politics with border or immigration. i am interested in fixing it. >> joining me now is my friend from california, the congressman himself, freshman member robert garcia. so glad to have you with us, congressman garcia. listen, let's start with the facts. this is actually two policies, correct? can you break down how this actually works for viewers? >> absolutely, and good to see you again. look, i think there's two pieces of this that are really important. the first, of course, is we are talking about an impact to over 500,000 people in this country who are going to be able to keep their families together. and that is really the meat of this plan, keeping families together. children in this country can be in a situation where you might have one parent that is a citizen, another parent that could be undocumented, and those families have to be separated, legally, in order for that undocumented parent to actually apply for some type of permanent residency. a lot of people assume that because if you marry a u.s. citizen and you might not have documentation, that somehow you get automatic citizenship area that is just not the way the law works in this country. so this allows those that are married to u.s. citizens to be able to start a permanent residency process that could eventually lead to earned citizenship. that is a game changer for half 1 million families in this country. and then, of course, the second part of this is it looks at the visa process for folks are here, daca recipients, people who are in the process, working in this country to expand that visa process and strengthen it for them so they have a little more security about what their future actually looks like. and so, i have said thank you, president biden. this is an enormous deal for the latino community, for immigrants across this country, for other types of immigrants that are here who are just looking to keep their families together. in my opinion, this is one of the most significant immigration policies and executive orders that we have seen in this country in decades. >> congressman garcia, just so i understand, how long will it take now that the executive order has been signed for applicants to be able to actually apply? what is the process there, or what is the window? and is there any concern about how that could impact voters and their attitudes with the election less than five months away? >> well, like i've told folks, of course, this does not mean that all of a sudden you are going to have an enormous amount of new citizens or people voting in this election. what is going to allow us to do is, over the next few months, the administration is going to be working to roll this program out. we have already heard from, or i have already heard from folks in the xm situation, who want to keep their families together. and those folks will be put on a pathway to some type of permanent residency if they meet requirements. remember, you have to be in this country for at least 10 years. you have to have been a person that is contributing back to our country, that is in this married relationship. so there is still a lot of complexity to it. but immigration groups on the ground, nonprofits, and most important lie, the administration is making sure that it rolls out in a way that works for people and that is easy to understand. that is what we are going to have to look forward to over the next few months. but again, for those who end up being eminent residence, the idea and the simple fact that they one day could earn citizenship, as i was able to do in my 20s, and get back to this country and be patriotic americans that give back to this country that we love so much is really a great day for immigrants. and i think it is a great day for america. >> congressman, i'm not sure if you heard, but your republican colleagues are not exactly doing the moon walk in celebration of this new executive order. let's listen and hear what donald trump had to say about this, and then talk about the other side. >> he is going to formerly grant a mass amnesty to millions of illegal aliens that came into our country. crooked joe is sending a message to the world that he rewards illegal entry, and that is what's happening. >> so, we have donald trump talking about mass deportations, and on the other end, you have stephen miller who is talking about potentially suing because of the unconstitutional nature of the executive action. is there any concern from this administration or from lawmakers that these challenges could ultimately be something that puts a stop to daca progressing again? >> look, i think the administration feels very good about the law, the legal standing. they have done the research. donald trump is, first, insane. and he is no friend of the latino community or immigrants, or american citizens who want to keep their families together. let's not forget that these folks, these 500,000 folks across this country are actually married to legal american citizens. these are americans who fell in love, who have families, who have children. so this also supports our nation, our country and community, that are u.s. citizens. so i think the republican party has no record to stand on when it comes to supporting immigrants, humane immigration systems, and all they do is follow their leader, who dehumanizes us, who says we are poisoning the blood of this country, who called us murderers . it is crazy. so i think, i talked to latinos over the last two days, people in our community, and broader folks. people are very excited and positive about the actions the president has taken in this moment. and the idea that stephen miller and donald trump, who support mass deportations, who support putting kids in cages, who support dehumanizing our community want to return to the white house. it is shameful and sick. i think that is going to be a huge focus for a lot of us going into the fall, also uplifting this really important policy. >> representative robert garcia, as always, thank you for your time. we appreciate you being here. up next, growing the base. black americans are seemingly souring on president biden. why some say they are looking to former president donald trump for economic support on all of their ailing farms. the president of the national black farmers association joins me after a break to make sense of it all. stay tuned. stay tuned. facts. that's why i use secret whole body deodorant for clinically proven odor protection everywhere. so i smell great all day, all hike, and all night. secret whole body deodorant. 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(vo) new and existing customers get iphone 15 on us when they trade in any iphone. verizon if you have chronic kidney disease you can reduce the risk of kidney failure with farxiga. because there are places you'd like to be. farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract, or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ let's talk about a group of folks who don't get enough attention. they are black farmers, and many of them are feeling burned by joe biden, and they are considering turning their support away from the president. now, in 2021, democrats included $4 billion of debt forgiveness for black and other code" farmers with their rescue plan. the but the promise of relief ended up being short-lived. an organization led by trump ac miller arguing reverse discrimination, which, by the way, is not a thing, for awarding the money based on race. but there are some black farmers who feel like the biden administration hasn't done enough, and they are considering shifting over their support to donald trump. john slaughter, a black farmer from georgia, who is planning on voting for donald trump told the new york times that he believes democrats merely talk a good game. but when it comes to saying they want to help black farmers, their actions don't match their words. joining me now is a soybean farmer and founder and president of the national black farmers association. so excited to have this conversation, so glad you're with me this afternoon. in may, you went to the white house to talk to the president and press for a debt forgiveness and foreclosure moratorium for black farmers across the country. what was your take away from that visit? >> well, the meeting didn't happen with the president. but i did meet with senior level staffers there and expressed to them the importance and the frustration from america's black farmers that feel like they are being left behind, and the 120%, people missing the boat here, is the land that is remaining from black farmers, that is tied up by trusts. we want to be 120%, 100% for debt relief, 20% to pay their taxes. the black farmers, 17,000 plus black on farms signed the contract that was sent to us by usda. we agreed to their terms, and just as i started to win some motions in federal court to have discrimination from our organization and farmers like myself, the administration repealed it after these losses. first i would like to say shame on stephen miller and that lunch pursuing black farmers, and my message to them is you will kindly reap what you sow. you don't sue fellow farmers, that's a no-no. farming is the hardest occupation known to man. i just came in from outside, filling an irrigation pipe in this heat. so we work hard, and we strongly fear that the administration and the president, and that, have left us behind. and what i just asked the presidency and staff to do was the same thing that the brother that was on earlier with you, by executive order. that they can provide by executive order to black farmers. we didn't get the money, i want to be clear there. we didn't get a complete farm moratorium, that guaranteed loans to financial solutions. then we sit back and watch the news. $175 billion to ukraine. earmarked money for ukraine farmers. nobody sued ukraine farmers, so they got the money, and they got a help. and american company supplied them with women. so we are looking at this, and black farmers are frustrated. and that is what you saw in that article. the only candidate that has reached out to me right now was a candidate who said he would provide within the first week in office. >> you make a very interesting point. i think displaying the conundrum that lack farmers find themselves in. first of all, a lot of people don't know the degree to which black farmers have been discriminated against in this country, literally for decades. and how big a problem this is. which is why i am so glad we are having this conversation. but now you talk about, on one hand, we don't know if we are pleased with the job he has done. but the other guy, who presumably is his most staunch competition, stephen miller is his homeboy. so that also, and he sued it to basically block whatever benefits you will would've gotten. so where does that leave black farmers, with the very difficult choice in navigating this overall conversation? >> i am so glad for you to have this conversation. that is why i have been reaching out to the white house. we have to have this meeting with the president. because we need to have, and exactly what he is doing on immigration, we need the exact thing to happen for america's black farmers. we need our land. land is food, land is freedom, land is water. and my grandfather and daddy said land is everything. and if we lose this batch of land, there is only 1500 black farmers in this country that produce food the way that i do. corn, wheat, soybeans, and a certain amount of abundance. so we are facing extinction. although we have 130,000 members across the united states, we are losing farmers. last year alone we lost 4000 farmers. the ministration has to look at this and say you know what? we are going to do something to help america's farmers right now. that is what the farmers in the article want to hear. they want to hear what the next four years are going to be like for black farmers, and they want to hear that they are committed the same way that the president is committed for student loan forgiveness. women's reproductive rights. all very important issues, but i have never once heard the president from the microphone say i am going to fight for america's black farmers to make sure that they get what they were promised. that is the first thing. and the second thing is, i was probably part of the first black organization, when the president was running for president, to endorse and publicly from the microphone. >> listen, every body wants to be spoken to. and lack farmers have every right to fight for what it is they need. i don't believe that you got in just now from being working, because you sitting there cool as an ocean breeze. i want to be that cool in a cowboy hat when i grow up. >> i want you to know, i cleaned up for your interview. but the point i'm trying to make is this is hard work. >> i appreciate you, brother, thank you so much. john boyd junior, thank you. that's going to do it for me. i have been in the chair for katie phang today. i'm charles coleman junior. really appreciate it. our staff is been great and made my job a lot easier. katie will be back next saturday at eastern. in the meantime, follow the katie phang show on social media using the handle katie phang show. you can also catch clips of the show on youtube and listen to every upset of the katie phang show as a podcast for free. just scan the qr code on your screen to follow now. don't go anywhere. msnbc reports with alex witt is coming up next. . all in one. to those with migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. it's time we all shine. talk to a healthcare provider about nurtec odt from pfizer. okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. 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