american history -- >> we really do need a new word for unprecedented. >> former president trump vows to appeal his historic guilty conviction. >> a presidential candidate found guilty on 34 counts is clearly unlike anything we've ever seen. >> trump's conviction is a first. the clean sweep guilty on all 34 counts an especially strong vindication of the new york d.a.'s case. and sit one that all news viewers and citizens and people around the world are actually hearing and absorbing as one fact. people can have different reactions to this legal fact, but unlike so many other civic and political feuds that deinvolve into competing claims almost from the start, there's only one legal outcome here, an outcome that is sinking in, no matter what one's views of the defendant are, and no matter where you get your information from, your phone or the internet or newspapers or tv news where may 30, 2024 played out with the same big verdict news no matter which station you watch. to that end, as we begin this new week tonight we're going to do something a little different. we're going of to air how this news broke across different channels. and i'll tell you up front, the focus here is not to promote other channels or reair our own, but ratter with an attempted independent mindset to just see together for a few moments how this broke for the many millions of americans watching across the different channels so. right now, first, here's how the verdict news broke on fox and cnn. >> there are guilty verdicts from our producer inside we are hearing guilty on one through five. one 15, guilty. we are up to 18 counts. 19, guilty. remember, we have 34 here. 20, guilty. we are now 24 counts in, all guilty. from inside, this is what we are hearing from our producers. up to 26. guilty. >> count 27, guilty. another felony charge falsifying business records in the first degree. count 28, guilty. another felony charge falsifying business records in the first degree. count 29, guilty. felony charge. falsifying business records in the first degree. count 30, guilty. felony charge. falsifying business records. count 31, guilty. falsifying business records in the first degree. count 32, guilty, falsifying business records in the first degree. only two counts left. count 33, former president donald trump found guilty. falsifying business records. count 34, guilty. >> guilty. that was big news at msnbc we had our teams working together at the courthouse and in our newsroom and during the jury deliberations there was no way to know if there would be a hung jury, no agreement, or whether they'd hit a unanimous verdict. so when the jury said it had a verdict, which was just moments before it scheduled adjournment on thursday, that changed everything. everything went into motion, but of course, still no one knew what they had decided yet. so as the jury foreperson spoke in real time, we were still waiting to learn. it could have been 34 not guilties. it could have been a split, depending on the counts. some involve trump's own signature, for example, others had documents that he himself did not create. you could have had guilty on some and not guilty on other counts. unlike breaking news where reporters first confirm a fact and then go share it, we were all getting that same new information and those facts in real time. we just aired that moment from cnn and fox. now here tonight is how that news broke on msnbc. >> we've got a verdict, ari melber? >> we are looking at count one, guilty. count two, guilty. count three, guilty. count four, guilty. count five, guilty. those are the first five counts coming out of this jury finding donald j. trump guilty on the first five felony counts. reading the rest as we are getting it from our court reporters. >> starting with count six. >> count six, guilty. >> count seven, guilty. count eight, guilty. and you'll see on this screen, we're tracking ahead. count nine, guilty, count ten, guilty. count 11, guilty. count 12, guilty. count 13, guilty. count 14, guilty. count 16, guilty. count 17, guilty. count 18, guilty. count 19, guilty. count 20, guilty. count 21, guilty. count 22, guilty. count 23, guilty. count 24, guilty. count 25, guilty. count 26, guilty. count 27 -- we're seeing that on screen. guilty. count 28, guilty. those are the first 28 counts as read by the jury. count 29, guilty. count 30, guilty. count 31, guilty. count 32, guilty. count 33 and 34, guilty. that is donald j. trump, defendant in new york versus donald trump found guilty on all 34 felony counts. that is the verdict here in this case. >> rachel? >> listen, it's a unanimous jury verdict, unanimous on all counts. this is a definitive and, you know -- this is an irreducible verdict. he can appeal. i'm sure he will appeal. but this is everything that the prosecution asked for. >> everything they asked for and sought and proved to this jury. definitive, unanimous, and many americans view the result as both legitimate -- this is our process, and we've been told from the beginning of our civics classes through all of our public life, you have to respect a jury verdict. it's not whether you personally agree with it or what you might have done, but you respect the rule of law and the jury verdict that's legitimate. and then the fact that we're me this strange situation wherein people find it concerning that, of all the people available, why would one party insist on running a convicted felon? which makes sense as a question that's percolating as we begin the new week. half of independent vote ears think trump should now end his presidentialed by, that republicans should offer a better, nonfelon candidate. it is the kind of low bar that almost sounds a little odd to say out loud. it also reflects the extremism that dominates today's republican party. to put it another way, there are indications that president biden is a beatable incumbent. there are indications that a nonfelon candidate would have a better shot, be in a better position to beat him. but in today's republican party, rallying around this now-convicted felon, that comes before what you would traditionally call a party's own self-interest and a political party's only purposes, which is to run people with the best shot of winning to get into office to represent their views as opposed to other people who may not win. and that's before you get to what's best for the country or what it means to support law and order or all the other things that for many, many years we have been told are the baseline requirements. just as so many republicans also minimize or join donald trump's attacks on his 2020 loss, a process that has led to some of its own crimes. some convicted against other, some that trump stands as a defendant in those other cases. so that's where we are, and while it may be a low bar to discuss whether or not we want felons to be eligible for or potentially win the highest office in the land, it's also a low bar to make sure we all understand that what you just watched, what millions of people watched across all those channels on thursday, is the same reality. there's no debating what happened here. there's no debating how high a burden it is, how high a bar it is, how hard it is to convict someone in criminal court. we all have the same facts here today starting a new week about this convicted felon still running for office. what do we do with him? kelly and emily will help us answer that when we're back in 90 seconds. t when we're back in 90 seconds we're talking about cashbackin. not a game! we're talking about cashbacking. we're talking about... we're not talking about practice? no... cashbacking. word. we're talking about cashbacking. cashbacking. cashbacking. cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? let's get the rest of these plants in. organic soil from miracle-gro has grown me the best garden i have ever had. good soil, and you get good results. this soil will blow you away. it's the martha stewart of soil. the judge could decide to say, hey, house arrest, or even jail. >> i'm okay with it. i saw one of my lawyers the other day on television saying, oh, no, don't do that -- you don't beg for anything, just the way it is. >> just the way it is, convicted felon donald trump talking about one possibility if he were to get jail time. we are joined now by former u.s. attorney for the southern district, david kelly. also, full disclosure, my former boss, and emily bazelon. david, we just watched how this news broke. unprecedented, a rarity, what's also been rare is that more people than usual have been challenging, at least in the republican party, honoring the verdict. you've done this kind of work, is that unusual? does it matter that people in positions of leadership respect the outcome of juries? >> i think it's one of the horrible tragedies of this case is the attack, the unprecedented attack, and the baseless attack on the system here. i mean, i think, if anything, this is a great story for the rule of law and the vindication of justice. and people who are responsible or who know better or should know better, particularly lawyers, coming and making attacks on the system. every criminal case there's lots of tragedies in it. you have the victim, the defendant themselves, and here you have added to all of that the tragedy of respected people in government, high places, making attacks on the system and undermining the very confidence when it's completely baseless. >> we have some top republicans in that vein. i want to play that. i talked on some of the other news coverage, so we've shown what happened, but here's some of the reaction from top republicans. >> this case was rigged from the very beginning. >> i think that what happened in new york, if you applied it across all 50 states, would be the definition of fascism. >> this is the most outrageous travesty i've ever seen. >> this is a justice system that hunts republicans while protecting democrats. this was certainly a hoax a sham. >> as a fact check, i want to say some of that is not true. there's been no evidence of rigging, which is a word that has a meaning and would involve these jurors or others being involved in some rigged conspiracy, so that's not true. i should mention just two of the people we show eked there, rubio and vance, before 2016 warned that donald trump's ethic, his dishonesty, other things they said about him were reasons not to make him president. now what they said has proven true but they've have had had to just reverse themselves. >> i mean, look, there has to be basis for saying i don't agree with the outcome here for any kind of sober questions about the system, about the charges, but i think what we're seeing goes way beyond that information, starting with former president trump saying that this prosecution came from the biden administration when, in fact, it's not federal at all. it's a state case brought by the state of new york. and when you see that kind of disinformation that is really a problem for people's understanding, for our faith in the system, and just for telling the truth about what happened. >> yeah. we put together something else. it's one of these days where there's so much happening thursday, friday we didn't get to everything, but david, we put together some of the past criticism, second guessing of this case, including the sort of a lead or privilege mode where people say i prefer that other case, as if we're playing some national legal video game. most of those other cases are not scheduled to happen against donald trump before the election anyway, so this is the case. and i wonder how some of this looks to you, especially given your role as having been a chief prosecutor. this is a good watch, i would argue. our team put it together, but i think they did a good job. so for your reaction, this is the many, many criticisms of d.a. bragg over the time. >> at least in my judgement of all the cases, this is the weakest one substantively. >> this is a very weak case. >> this is the wrong case at the wrong time. >> as a matter of law, these charges are the weakest. >> chances of a unanimous conviction are like 10% to 15%. >> i think your analysis is spot on. at this point i think the odds of a hung jury are high. >> i think that the case is, in many ways, stale at this juncture. >> this trial legally is very weak. >> i don't think there's anybody in america who thinks this is a seriously strong case. >> alvin bragg is now sweating even more than usual. his pathetically weak case against former president trump has totally imploded. >> we're talking about a case that the feds across the street, my former office, the famously aggressive southern district of new york reviewed two years ago and said, no, thanks, we pass. >> the new york city, the manhattan case involving bragg and the hush payments is the weakest criminal case i've ever seen in 60 years of practicing and teaching criminal law. >> well, look, i think it's easy for people to stand outside and criticize. i didn't think an awful lot of the case until i can tell you, man, i thought it was a good case and i had trust in alvin bragg to bring it. but what changed me is when david pecker testified. it brought it all into focus for me and talked about not just how i think the substantively there was a lot there for them to move on, but how compelling it was and how important it was. and i think that for alvin bragg to look at that as we got ultimately a chance to when we saw the evidence. he saw the evidence way before us. and he's confronted with a situation which is, well, do i prosecute him or do i take a pass on it because it's donald trump or do i prosecute it because we have somebody who did something really egregious here that really had an impact on election, and i think i have a very solid case on the law. and i think he does. and i think the facts really supported that. >> i agrow that it got stronger as we watched the witnesses, and i think the prosecution made a number of smart moves. maybe the smartest of all was starting with david pecker because the stakes with so clear. and i think, david, what you're pointing to is this essential question ethat trump raises for rule of law. do you treat him differently in a way that gives him a pass, or do you make sure you uphold the same standards as usual, even though he used to be the president. and that does seem now like what must have really been on alvin bragg's mind as he was weighing what to do. >> if i understand the situation, not to go too far back in history, but the decision to charge martha stewart. and we had all the facts there and that she lied and she obstructed an investigation. the decision is, well, to i not do it because it's martha stewart? that's wrong. >> yeah. and you knew it could upset snoop. >> well, snoop, i don't know that they had a really close relationship back then. >> wow. spoken like a lawyer. we have to really look at it. yeah, they had a business relationship. i know what you mean, though, all jokes aside that when you're a prosecutor, you're exercising unitary power in a way that's different than most of the government. people criticize congress, but it's all a blend and a mix. this d.a. bragg, like when you had that job, got criticism for different thing, and then you have to say, how much of that is in the moment and it's fine. these people are public official, subject to public discussion. and how much in the case of bragg became a pile-on that wasn't true. in other words, judgement, sure, you can debate. was the case weak, no, it was strong enough to win. was the case stale? no, it was fresh enough to win all 34 counts. that has to matter in the history of this. >> all 34 counts in about 15 minutes of deliberations. >> two day, but okay. >> it was a quick -- i mean, this was not a tough lift once this jury got to see all the evidence there. now, obviously there's some legal issues there, but i think substantively, i think they're going to -- i don't know if they're unprecedented, they're bit unusual these legal issues, that doesn't mean that they are foundationally weak. >> yeah, really interesting here as we start the new week with all of this percolating, david and emily. thanks to both of you. coming up, trump is facing the possibility of parole, probation or jail time. coming up, tony schwartz talks about how this could affect him. my special guest coming up. affect him. my special guest coming up tide pods child-guard pack helps keep your laundry pacs in a safe place and your child safer. to close, twist until it clicks. tide pods child-guard packaging. the virus that causes shingles is sleeping... in 99% of people over 50. it's lying dormant, waiting... and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you're not at risk for shingles? it's time to wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. the future is not just going to happen. you have to make it. and if you want a successful business, all it takes is an idea, and now becomes the future. a future where you grew a dream into a reality. it's waiting for you. mere minutes away. the future is nothing but power and it's all yours. the all new godaddy airo. get your business online in minutes with the power of ai. when your gut is out of balance, your body gives you signs. so if you're frustrated with occasional bloating... ♪♪ [stomach noises] gas... or abdominal discomfort... help stop the frustration and start taking align every day. align probiotic was specifically designed by gastroenterologists to help relieve your occasional digestive upsets. so you can enjoy life. when you feel the signs, it's time to try align. ego, the number one rated brand in cordless outdoor power brings you the select cut mower. customize the cut with three interchangeable blades. it cuts for over an hour on a single charge. ego - exclusively at lowe's, ace and ego authorized deale this morning donald trump became the first american president in history to be convicted of a crime. >> one of those where were you when this happened kind of moments. >> breaking news, donald trump guilty in the so-called hush money trial. >> [ speaking in a non-english language ] >> it's a stunning moment in american history. >> [ speaking in a global language ]>> [ speaking in a global language ]>> business and politics have clearly taken trump around the world, but it was regular new yorkers in a manhattan courtroom who brought him home to accountability. convicted on all counts. a kid who grew up in queens seeing his hometown paper report the news with the deliberately understated headline queens man convicted, while as we've told you the nation continues to share the single legal fact of this guilty verdict. >> we have a verdict in the criminal trial of donald trump. >> we are looking at count one, guilty. count two, guilty. count three, guilty. >> this is everything the prosecution asked for from a jury that by all accounts took this thing very, very seriously. >> that new york jury did take it seriously. we've been in the courtroom along with our colleagues. no one's found any evidence to the contrary. this is the ultimate loss for a man who infamously hates to lose. it is also proof that on this one lies and denials failed. consider this thought. quote, you can't con people, at least not for long, you can throw in a little hyperbole, but if you don't deliver the goods, people will eventually catch on. that warning about the limits of conning people is from the art of the deal itself. here was trump at the party in 1987 for that book which helped launch his hype, his brand, and these lies to a much wider audience. and this was in a time before the internet and social media. the book really mattered. now here was trump after his guilty verdict. older, as we all are if we're lucky enough to stay alive, but also sadder, defeated, and perhaps in his own way learning that very lesson that he may not have believed when he said a variation of those words to his co-author on the art of the deal, one known more for writing than defendant trump, now convict, convicted felon trump, tony schwartz, who did not know when he partner thoond book he was working with a future president or a future felon. tony, we've had some conversations over to years, i'm thrilled to have you here tonight, welcome back. >> thank you. i was looking at that quote, which is from the art of the deal, as you said, and thinking to myself did he say that or did i make that up on his behalf. >> yeah, that's one of your life questions. >> yeah, and i don't know the answer, but i will say it's taken an awful long time to catch up with him even in the courts. he's probably committed scores of felonies over the last 30, 35 years and gotten away with every single one. he hasn't in this case, but the jury is out on whether he -- whether we've really caught up with him finally. >> people struggle to depart from patterns, that's why they're patterns. and i'm going to show you in a minute the pattern of him getting away with things. but now with him losing, how do you think the people around him are absorbing that is a full and total loss with the legal possibility of, i'm not saying it's happening, but the possibility of jail time, which in my experience around the law, that focuses the mind of even the most powerful, even the billionaire, former heads of state, jail's different. >> first of all, i have no doubt that there is -- one of the emotions trump is feeling is terror. and the idea of being in a prison on -- for 30 different reasons is unimaginable to him and horrifying. second of all, he lives in a massive state of denial, and so all the energy now is around saying that this was, you know, a setup. >> yeah. >> all the various things that he's said. but i think he is sitting in a state that really tests whatever level of mental health he currently has. >> hmm. yeah, and that is a type of stress and strain. he said in his bizarre press conference afterward, he said, you know, other people would have stepped back by now. he's wired different. and i thought, that's one of those time where is he's saying something that corresponds to reality. >> yeah. he's wired up is what he means. he's activated and he's crazed. if you look at the last month or even the last two month, he's gone further and further out in terms of outrageousness, you know? >> yeah. >> posting in a way that suggests he's aligned with nazis. i mean, saying that he's going to get rid of the constitution. then saying he's defending the constitution when it serves him to say that. one of my biggest questions is over the next three months, four months as he's going more towards the election, in the face of all this, does he finally go too far? now, we don't know whether the crime that he's now been convicted of meant that americans think he's gone too far. in fact, we know that at least 45% of americans don't. but it will be interesting to see -- because i think he will say things that are more outrageous, more unacceptable, and the question will be can he -- as it's been for eight years -- can he finally break the pact with those who have voted for him. >> mm-hmm, that makes sense. i'm going to turn to what we've prepared for our viewers and you, which is this look at the history. i will say that people say things sometimes. i can't believe this person gets away with it. most crimes are unsolved. i don't say that encourage criminality to the viewers or support anarchy, but that's actually the truth. most crimes are unsolved. now, very high profile criminals, famous criminal, right, when gotti was on the cover of magazine, it became a national priority. this cannot continue. but there are many small time gangster, batterer, violent people, abusers who are never caught because prosecution is not about crime, sorry, it's about evidence. and if you have enough evidence on someone, you got them. and if you don't, you don't even bring the case. and this person you worked so closely with has been a mast exer obsessive over avoiding evidence and the footprints his entire life, which is part of why this happened. >> no collusion, no conspiracy, no obstruction. it is official, everybody. >> bob mueller did not find chargeable collusion. >> miss collins, not guilty. mr. mcconnell, not guilty. >> the president acquitted of abusing power and obstructing congress. >> donald trump tonight declared not guilty of the impeachment charge he inrited insurrection at the capitol. >> the u.s. supreme court handing donald trump the gift of time. >> after months of delays and closed door hearings, the classified documents case against former president donald trump has been officially and indefinitely delaid. >> i did my job. we did our job. many voices out there, the only voice that matters is the voice of the jury, and the jury has spoken. >> facts. and this one was different. and the alliances he had, the political relationships he developed, the supreme court, there's a lot of reasons in addition to the evidence thing i mentioned. but now this one is different. do you see something different in d.a. bragg and this battle that he lost, that trump lost, unlike those? >> i have a lot more humility than i had eight years ago when he was running for president, and he has prevailed over rationality so many times that i don't know the answer. but i will say this, and this is really important, the only chance he has now is to destroy the system that made him -- that led to his conviction. so he has to focus all his attention, in order to survive, on breaking down confidence in that system, in the system of -- in the rule of law, in the way that a democracy operates, because without that he is a guilty man. he's -- forever. so the amount of damage he can do in his attempt to save himself right now is almost incalculable. and it can only be realized if he's elected. but even if he's not elected, you know he is going to challenge the results. so we've got a lot of unknowns ahead of us. and this guy is not going down easily. >> no, i think he is in a more desperate position going into this election than the last one. there's been much talk about the other trials that are delayed. they're delayed, not denied. he knows if he loses outright and can't find any other way to overcome that -- that's how we have to talk these days in this country -- that he's facing trials with a much higher risk of jail. i want to show you what he said in '16, which reminds you why you know being a felon is a bad thin in politics. he understood that then, he just didn't have the truth about his opponent, so he made it up. take a look. >> she shouldn't be allowed to run. we could very well have a sitting president under felony indictment and ultimately a criminal trial. it would grind government to a halt. >> so what's interesting about trump and always has been is that he projects on to his enemies all the things that are true about him. so what he was describing was, you know, what he would like to have happened to hillary, but the fact is that nothing he says is set in stone. it's applicable to that moment and how it will serve him. so that's what he was saying then, and his style is, as you know, is repetition. so he's going to repeat 10,000 times that this was a sham trial and the question is will democracy, will the rule of law hold up under the assault. >> yeah, and you saying the projeshgs part also is important because, as you and i were just discussing earlier, when he starts saying, oh, everything is fascist, everything is nazi, right, it's like being the first mover on that issue. >> exactly. >> and then someone else says, oh, this is so hateful, you're dehumanizing people as vermin the way they did in germany, and he says, i already called everyone a nazi. now you've got him bringing in and normalizing the speech that only is arising because his side is going that far. >> there's no question that that's true. and he will continue to do exactly that in the months ahead. >> yeah. tony, this is an interesting time to check in with you, thanks for being here. >> thank you for having me. >> appreciate you, tony schwartz. coming up, a new problem for some of the maga folks lying about the 2020 election. it turns out in court they're losing allies and falling apart. we'll discuss how the defamation accountability matters tonight, but next neal katyal. t next neal katyal we've covered the conviction, let's get into the punishment. donald trump's conviction does tee up this sentencing in july. his defense lawyers must file their motions on that within two weeks. trump lawyer todd blanche does understand that legally it is possible that as a convicted felon, depending on the sen etensing, trump could be jailed this year. as a cbs news reporter observed. >> when i spoke to his lawyer, todd blanche, he didn't rule out the possibility that trump could be in jail during the republican enational convention. when sen etensing happens on july 1 #19, there's an expectation he could be put on probation. >> trump's lawyers are appealing this entire conviction while also arguing against jail time for trump. so they have about two weeks to submit this motion on the jail time that's separate from a wider appeal, that's to the same judge, merchan. a theme explored in sole survival, the track with the plaintiff request road trip, trafficking the white, please lord, don't let me go to jail tonight. convicts know they can go to jail. they usually don't want. to now, trump does have better odds legally of being spared jail than the other attack they're making, which is trying to just get the whole conviction tossed. the appeal that they would put forward would, among other things, try to focus on attacking the fairness of the judge i just mentioned who steered the trial through political and legal emine fields as the times reports and thus that approach to trying to get the whole thing tossed looks like an uphill battle to experts. take one lawyer who actually screens cases the for appeals court, this exact situation, saying the case has none of the red flags for reversal on appeal. the judge's demean nor was, quote, flawless. now, even convicted felons have rights. this sentencing affords, for example, donald trump's lawyers the right to make all the arguments against any jail at all. and remember, if there's no jail time, then the appeals process will have a little less intensity because it will be about the fact, the legal fact of the conviction, but won't be resolving whether or not he goes to jail. if, however, he's sentenced to, say, a month home confinement and a month jail or three months jail and it is only the appeals courts process that would keep him out of ha jail cell sooner or later, then yes, you can bet the appeal after the sentencing will be a huge deal in our public and legal life for months to come. we turn now to someone who knows all about appeals, neal katyal, the former acting solicitor general for the obama sxhrgs msnbc legal analyst. welcome back. your thoughts on all the above. >> yeah, so i think when you think about the question of what's going to happen to trump on sentencing, there's two pieces of it. one is what's the judge going to sentence. and the second is how does whatever sen sense is imposed intersect with the appellate process. so ari, with respect to the first, he's been convicted of 34 count, 34 felonies, and it's, of course, the case that most first-time offenders don't get jail time. but 34 felonies is different, and it's also the gravity of the felonies. it's what happened. it's not just falsifying any old business record, it was falsifying a business record to swing or try and swing the 2016 election. so i expect what the prosecution's going to focus on -- and a key variable is the d.a. bragg going to seek a jail sentence. i suspect he will both because of the pornts of the crime but also because donald trump showed a lack of remorse through the process and his behavior through the trial was just appalling. and the judge is firmly within his rights to look at all of that. >> so what would, in your view, a fair request from the d.a.'s side look like, knowing that, as i mentioned, it's still going to be fought out in court? >> yeah, i do think it's a sentence of potentially a year or something like that. it may not have to be served in a penitentiary. it might be served in home confinement, but i do think this is, you know, not minor stuff. this is pretty serious. now, the other question is -- and this is where i think that todd blanche and the -- just gets it wrong. i don't think there's a realistic hans that donald trump is going to jail this year. >> right. >> let's say the judge does what i said and sentences him to a year in prison or home confinement. trump will file the next day a motion for bail pending appeal, which is basically a document that says to the court, hey, i've got some grounds for an appeal here, don't jail me now. let's see what happens in the appeal. and almost certainly that is going to be a granted motion. they're routinely filed. i file them, you know, lots of people have filed them. so i don't think that's realistic. >> let me slow you down just on your lingo, neal. when you say a granted motion, all of that, what you're saying is there is precedent. it is within the normal process that even if he got a jail sentence he wouldn't be physically going into the jail immediately because, in fairness, he would get to exhaust his right to appeal it. >> exactly. he gets to hit the pause button, i mean, and say to the judge, don't jail me now. maybe jail me at the end of the appeals process, and i think, ari, you're right, i don't think he has a credible ground for appeal. he'll try a lot of stuff, but nonetheless, i think at this moment before the election, i don't see a realistic chance that trump is going to jail for this set of offenses. >> and again, that'ston contrary to what trump's lawyers said. and they make legal arguments like you do, but they do stuff you don't typically do, neal. they've used the court to make sort of political statements, to make nonlegal claims. they also, of course, were rebuked at times for that. so even though it's a lawyer talking, i wonder how skeptical we have to be about whether they're trying to play into the grievance politics. oh my god, what if i were jailed right before rnc, which we saw trump talk up on the gag order, and then it was echoed on fox as if it would be a miscarriage of justice for him to go to jail over the gag order. leaving aside the intricacies of that, we all lived through it, he was never put in jail for the gag order. there seemed to be an interest in hyping that as gree evans when it wasn't even happening. >> the judge even said the last thing i want to do, mr. trump, is put you in jail. you're presidential candidate and the like. so that's why i think that quote from mark that you had before was right. s that judge who is meticulous and did things right. it's also like the rhetoric you're pointing to, ari, it's the rhetoric of trump. like today he was on social media saying the supreme court must decide this today in my favor. supreme court already is not going to like decide this case right now. of course not, there's no federal issue. if trump try, he's going to lose every day of the week. so you know, there's just a lot of heated rhetoric that's going around. and i do think we all have to do what the jury did last week, which is just examine the facts, look at what the facts were, and make our own judgement, that's where what the jury did and unanimously found him guilty. >> understood. neal katyal, we appreciate your calm legal reasoning at this time. you go to msnbc.com/openingarguments for neal's legal breakdowns, including this one. up next, trump's conviction comes amidst a wider set of lies and maga lies. i want to bring that story to you next. o bring that story t you next with a 360-degree swivel head that goes places a regular mop just can't. ♪♪ mop smarter with the swiffer powermop. smile! you found it. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections, cancers including lymphoma, muscle problems, and changes in certain labs have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection, liver or kidney problems, high triglycerides, or had a vaccine or plan to. sotyktu is a tyk2 inhibitor. tyk2 is part of the jak family. it's not known if sotyktu has the same risks as jak inhibitors. find what plaque psoriasis has been hiding. there's only one sotyktu, so ask for it by name. so clearly you. sotyktu. millions of children are fighting to survive due to inequality, conflict, poverty and the climate crisis. save the children® is working alongside communities to provide a better life for children. and there's a way you can help. please call or go online to give just $10 a month. only $0.33 a day. we urgently need 1000 new monthly donors in the next 30 days to help the children we support around the world. you can help provide food, medicine, care and protection, plus so much more that a child needs by calling right now and giving just $10 a month. all we need are 1000 monthly donors in the next 30 days. please call or go online now with your monthly gift of just $10. thanks to generous government grants, every dollar you give can have up to ten times the impact. and when you call with your credit card, we will send you this save the children® tote bag as a thank you for your support. your small monthly donation of just $10 could be the reason a child in crisis survives. please call or go online to hungerstopsnow.org to help save lives today. you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean- not spreadsheets. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire ♪ music ♪ ♪ unnecessary action hero! ♪ matching your job description. ♪ unnecessary. ♪ was that necessary? no. neither is missing your daughter's competition to do payroll. with paycom, employees do their own payroll so you don't have to miss your daughter's big day. time to shine. get paycom and make the unnecessary unnecessary. switch to shopify so you can build it better, scale it faster and sell more. much more. take your business to the next stage when you switch to shopify. sfx: [screams] [crowd gasps] bleeding gums are serious, jamie... dr. garcia? whoa! they're a sign of bacterial infection. crest gum detoxify's antibacterial fluoride works below the gumline to help heal gums and stop bleeding. crest saves the day! crest. we have started the week with a lot of coverage coming out of the conviction of former president donald trump. a first time event for the united states. we turn now to another step that fits into accountability, both how it works but how long it can take. this involves people who have been lying about donald trump's 2020 loss. there's a media company which distributed something called 2000 mules, one of these films that traffics in clear lies and defamation. by the way, supporting trump, criticizing biden, criticizing the election. we're not talking about that. we're talking about defamatory stuff. because of a court case, this is yanked from distribution. they're apologizing about a georgia man who was basically defamed not doing the fact checking reporters do. they defamed him by accusing him publicly of fraud. this comes from a very well known conspiracy theorist who has had his own background as a felon, dinesh disousa. he's been in trouble for his kind of action and campaign financial violations and pushing this film was a key part of trying to amplify the election lies about trump's loss. >> you saw 2000 mules. i hope everybody saw it. >> what makes this documentary so explosive is it doesn't just show that the heist could have happened but that it did happen. >> it seems to me that's one of the causes of the ability of the mules to do the harvesting, you know, to rig the election. >> this project or this media which is no longer as i said being distributed by the publisher that originally picked it up is not a documentary. categories matter a lot here. if mr. de souza wanted to make fictional films, made up movies about elections or write novels, that would be fine. but by crossing over into falsy claiming he has the truth and defaming people or allegedly defaming them, that changes things. and this is accountability for the people who push the lies. we have seen several of trump's aides and lawyers indicted or convicted for the same 2020 efforts. others facing sanction like they won't be allowed to practice law anymore. fox paid one of the largest defamation cases in history, you see it right here, again, over these lies and other cases related continuing, including the $2 billion plus smartmatic case. it turns out lying about the election is very, very expensive and that's the way it's supposed to be. nobody actually goes to prison in defamation cases but they set a cost that's so high, even businesses that are only interested in profits, maybe not honesty, have to back down sometimes. it seems that keeps happening as long as people keep repeating trump's election lies. we'll be right back. and it could strike at any time. think you're not at risk? wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. so this is pickleball? it's basically tennis for babies, but for adults. it should be called wiffle tennis. pickle! yeah, aw! whoo! ♪♪ these guys are intense. we got nothing to worry about. with e*trade from morgan stanley, we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right? got him. good game. thanks for coming to our clinic, first one's free. if you have chronic kidney disease you can reduce the risk of kidney failure with farxiga. because there are places you'd like to be. farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract, or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ pods spring moving sale has been extended! save up to 25% on moving and storage until june 10th... and see why pods has been trusted with over 6 million moves. don't wait, use promo code 25now to save. book at pods.com today. . a trump verdict has had everyone following the news here on tv, i can tell you we have also been posting a lot behind the scenes and extra analysis online. take a look at what we do online. >> oh, my god. what time is it? >> it's time to do the interview. put your phone down. >> it's a moment, it's a mood. it's a vibe. >> it's part of the trump m.o. >> he's a desperate man. >> michael and ari. like roger and me. >> you ready? >> what do you got? >> i'm at the emmys. i'm waiting to hear if we win or not. >> what we need most is not ideology. it's evidence. >> when are you going to call me? >> this week. >> okay. >> okay. >> you can visit me online at ari melber or arimelber.com. keep it locked for "the reidout," up next, special guest michael cohen. tonight