Transcripts For MSNBCW Velshi 20240702

starts right now. >> nobody heard anything you said. i don't know why you bothered with that. coming up on the weekend, we've got this, and pierogi is on the set. what's the story? who is pierogi? >> he is his dog. >> he came into visit. >> he was in the control room and he came into visit. >> he was in my shot first and then he was like, i'm the one with the dog. i was like, give him the dog then. >> she did. >> all is forgiven. we are in a rush and sometimes you show up and you don't tell your friends you are there, but you run into them walking out of your hotel or something. that is kind of what has happened, right, because you guys are right there. all is forgiven. you guys have a good time. that was a fantastic show and ia look forward to seeing you tomorrow, because i have no idea what's on your show tomorrow. i was just looking at pierogi. pierogi, have a great time. kyle, thank you for having pierogi join us this morning and "velshi" starts now. good morning, it is saturday, june 1. there have been many attempts to hold donald trump accountable in recent years and this week the country took an extraordinary and historic step it has never taken before. after 23 days in court spread over seven weeks and 80 hours of testimony from 22 witnesses, trumps first criminal trial is complete. in the end it only took 9 1/2 hours for 12 jurors to s deliberate and find him guilty on all 34 counts for which he was charged. on thursday, trump, already the first president to be impeached twice and criminally indicted multiple times, became the first former american president to be convicted of a crime. the united states is hardly the first country to prosecute a former leader. dozens of countries have preceded us in the past two decades, but this has never happened in this country beforehand let alone at such an urgent time. there is a pivotal election just five months away and on election day one of the leading candidates in the race will be a convicted felon. at this point nobody really hi knows how or if this is going to change the dynamics of the race. many voters already made up their minds about both of the top, main, presidential candidates,n, both of whom have been in the public eye for decades. but the guilty verdict comes as the race is about to enter a busy and important stretch. later this month trump will face president biden in the re first presidential debate of this election season. on july 11 trump is scheduled to be back in court for his sentencing hearing where he could be penalized with a fine, probation, or prison time. on july 18, barring unforeseen circumstances, trump will be formally named the gop presidential nominee on the final night of the republican national convention in milwaukee. in between those dates he will be campaigning, fundraising and at some point this summer he has to choose a vice president. trump is likely to pick a running mate from the pool of politicians ingratiating themselves to him over the past few months. all of those vice presidential prospects are among the many republicans now parroting trumps dangerous propaganda and lies about america's justice system. south carolina senator tim scott remarked that the verdict was, quote, absolute injustice. ohio senator jd vance, who was once a prominent trump critic, called the decision, quote, a t disgrace to the rule of law and our constitution. he also accused democrats of ls inventing a felony to convict the former president and concluded, quote, this is not justice, it is election interference. meanwhile other top republican lawmakers are using their positions to undermine the verdict and the case itself. the ohio congressman jim jordan, a close trump ally and the chairman of the house judiciary committee, as well as the chairman of the subcommittee on the weaponization of government, is now seeking to investigate the k prosecutors. yesterday he sent a letter to the manhattan district attorney, alvin bragg, who led the historic conviction and requestedio that he testify abo the case in front of the subcommittee. these are baseless allegations. the prosecution and defense presented their cases and a jury delivered a verdict. no evidence has emerged to suggest there was anything improper. trump got a fair trial and that is the problem they've got with it. what we are seeing now from the majority of the republican party is an effort to undermine the jury's verdict ahead of november's important election to give trump a fighting chance. at the same time, they are continuing to de-legitimize america's justice system, all in the service of electing a man who has been impeached, indicted, and convicted and will continue to corrupt our politics as long as they let him. i am joined by the author of many books including presidents of war, the epic story from 1807 to modern times. and a professor of history at nyu, author of the lucid newsletter that follows threats to democracy as well as the author of the important book, strong men, from mussolini to the present. thank you for being with us. we have never been here before. other countries have been here before, but we have never seen a former president tried in rm court, let alone convicted. put this in historical perspective for us. nobody has a real answer for this. how does this affect our political landscape moving forward? >> i want to take one second for guest privilege. any of our viewers who have not seen and read closely the new book, small acts of courage, sm this is the time to do it. this is on point because it is not only informational, but essential to all of us who want to save democracy. i guarantee i will come back to the subject, but i don't think this is away from the subject. what did we see in new york city this week? that judge, jury, prosecutors. citizens of new york. without the acts of courage we would be living in a different moment today. having said that, what can we do? well we have now a convicted felon, who as you are saying is in line to become the l republican nominee for president and in many pools right now is the favorite to become president this november. at the same time we depend on a president to defend our rule of law. defending our rule of law is going to be not only a convicted felon on 34 counts, but anyone who heard the rant at the bottom of the brass escalator in trump tower yesterday, there is no remorse. he is still promising, if elected president, to terminate parts of the constitution, he has said. weaponize the department of justice against his political critics. in what, seven months, eight months from now? this is not something far in the future. all i am saying is if you like what we saw last week in new york, that is to essentially say this is who he is. voters this november have to think very carefully, is this the kind of america you want? >> roof, michael talks about what he did at trump tower and you got a bit of a taste of it the night when he walked out of court and kept repeating the same words. disgrace. he was talking about how it was politicized. a bit of a word salad, but it does come back to something you've written about a lot and that is that trump talks about retribution, talks about revenge. he talks about the fact they are coming for me. i am the one standing between them and you. this is a playbook that has been tried by a lot of people. >> yes, absolutely. not just the verdict, but the fact that the trial can take place. we talk about free and fair elections, but this is a free and fair trial because we are living through a massive attempt to delegitimize and discredit our democratic institutions. the judiciary especially. judges and prosecutors and the very idea of courts doing their business without political interference is a target and so of course we see not only the republicans weighing in with party approved talking points on retribution and tellingly they are not just attacking this particular trial as a travesty of justice, the mike johnson line, but the whole court system as corrupt. now jd vance, as you showed , that post he did, he is saying it is a george soros funded prosecutor. so it links it to international anti-semitism and conspiracy theories. they are very threatened by this and it shows us how precious our system of democracy is. >> michael, last night donald trump posted on truth social, quote, i am the political prisoner of a failing nation, but i will soon be free. november 5, and make america great again. let's talk about this. it is beyond criticizing the judge or the jury or joe biden or the prosecutors. he is talking about a failing nation and that he is a political prisoner. >> well, i'm trying to stay in my chair and stay calm. it is so ridiculous i can't even begin to respond to that. i think the way to do it is to say this. this november this really is a s choice between, you know, joe biden with all his flaws, but someone who loves democracy and has done a lot of things the past four years. has not been perfect, but wants to preserve what our country has been for over two centuries. versus someone who is even moree now double he sort of blasting out this talk about essentially destroying the society we are yi in and not only creating a dictatorship with an all- powerful president, more than a king or the dictators ruth writes about, but at the same time, anarchy, because for anyone who is a conservative, the rule of law is what keeps law and order and keeps the peace in america. when a judge and jury come up with a verdict like the one this week, we may disagree with the verdict, which americans have the right to do, but we respect the rule of law. instead you have this guy who aspires to be president again, saying that our legal system is trash. it is rotten. it is rigged and essentially if trump is elected president, how can he expect them to obey laws against homicide or arson? how can you get investors to invest in our economy if they have no idea we will have a rule of law in a year? that is the choice and if the choice is clear i can't see how a majority of americans would opt for that. >> i want to continue this conversation, so i will ask you both to stay where you are. michael beschloss and ruth ben- ghiat, we will continue this conversation after a quick break. more "velshi" after this. blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. are you still struggling with your bra? it's time for you to try knix. makers of the world's comfiest wireless bras. for revolutionary support without underwires, and sizes up to a g-cup, find your new favorite bra today at knix.com we are back, continuing our robust and important discussion about donald trump's historic conviction and how it might change the political landscape with election day five months and four days away. back with me are presidential historian michael beschloss and ruth ben-ghiat, professor of history at nyu. what a time we are in. i think i've told you both that probably for the first 25 years of my career i interviewed one historian a year and now they are the most important people to us because we need to have the context. i love it. i'm grateful to you all. ruth, one of the things i thought was remarkable during the trial and afterward was the red tie brigade. the rapid response from the right and after the verdict was read it was quick and it was aggressive. the messaging was remarkably well coordinated from donald trump's allies and it all serves, to the point michael was making before the break, it serves to undermine our justice system. disagreeing with verdicts is within our rights and that is why we have appeals. this is all fair, but that is not where these attacks are going. these attacks are going to the justice system itself. >> that's right. i actually have a piece up, my latest piece for lucid. it is about the official maga damage control talking points guide and the fact when you mentioned the people with the red ties, this is an authoritarian dynamic where you become not just proxies for the leader, but you internalize to a point where you have to imitate him and become kind of clones for him. this happens a lot in authoritarian regimes, but the coordinated aspect of his talking points and the fact they were disseminated so quickly, that is what i have been tracking. and one of the ones that is most interesting if you study corruption is if they can get trump, they can get any of us and this is an admission in a way of collective complicity that goes back to wide-ranging republican involvement in the january 6 insurrection and conspiracy to overthrow the government. and so we are seeing again this concerted attack not just on the outcome of this trial, but the whole democratic notion of justice. that is also why, you know, the reason why the sham subcommittee on the weaponization of government was formed with maga loyalist jim jordan. these people have a long game going. they think ahead and the idea is to discredit and investigate anybody who, you know, harms the leader. this is a classic authoritarian dynamic. >> you and i had a lot of discussions about that committee and i think it is time for more of them. michael, you've written an important book called presidents of war. when presidents of america are leaders in a time of war, there is often an external enemy and often popularity increases substantially because they are able to unite the country against a common enemy, the way zelenskyy has done against vladimir putin. this is a different kind of war. donald trump is creating a war inside of our country and it is working with the effectiveness of presidents who are presidents of a war against another country for his purposes. the people who believe it believe him more. >> donald trump has declared war on a lot of elements of democracy, but none so disturbing as the war on our legal system. take a look at the other trials that have not taken place. new york this week they reached a verdict, a very sound verdict. 34 counts. for the first time in his life donald trump has been legally brought to account. a lot of people early last week thought that might never happen, ever. at the same time, look what has not happened. the january 6 trial. the trial in georgia, the classified documents trial in florida. how is this happening? in florida a judge who is a trump appointed judge has been making extreme decisions that are holding up a case that many people think is almost a slam dunk against donald trump. in georgia the prosecutor and others working with her are being gone after by republican leaders in the state of georgia. january 6 is the most troubling of all, because the supreme court has not confirmed the appeals court judgment on presidential immunity, which in any other time in american history would have been thought routine and inevitable, but they are dragging their feet in a way that there is little chance of a january 6 trial to take place before the election, which is the time that voters need this kind of information. verdicts that go against what i like, you and i and ruth, we see those every day. that is fine if the system is functioning, but what we are seeing is a drive off the path of democracy into juries being intimidated, judges being denounced. the lives of family members being threatened and all sorts of political influence being used all over the place so that if there is an election in november and it leads to donald trump and what he is threatening, a year from now we will be living in a very different country. >> we are very lucky to have your perspectives and analysis on this, so thank you both for joining us. michael beschloss, nbc news presidential historian. the author of presidents of war. ruth ben-ghiat, professor of history at nyu and author of the book, strongmen, from mussolini to the present. both of these are important books if you're looking for something to read. straightahead we break down the new u.s. backed proposal to end the war in gaza the president biden presented at the white house yesterday. what it involves, why now and what chances it has of crossing the finish line, next on "velshi". shi". 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who are women, wounded, or elderly, the return of some remains of dead hostages, the release of an undetermined number of palestinian prisoners, the withdrawal of israeli forces from populated areas of gaza and palestinians would be allowed to return to all parts of gaza. there would be a significant increase in humanitarian aid going into gaza and during that six weeks, israel and hamas would begin negotiating what biden is calling a permanent end to hostilities. >> there are a number of details to negotiate to move from phase one to phase two. israel will want to make sure it's interests are protected, but the proposal says if negotiations take longer than six weeks from phase one, the cease-fire will continue as long as negotiations continue. >> as biden mentioned, once the permanent end to hostilities, as he called it, is negotiated, and only once that happens, will phase to begin. importantly as long as negotiations continue, no matter how long, the cease-fire stays in place. then in phase two the remaining living hostages will be released, as would more palestinian prisoners. israel would then withdraw from gaza and the cessation of hostilities, as biden calls it, would commence. that is phase two. phase three consists of gaza reconstruction and the return of the remaining bodies of dead hostages. in a statement, prime minister netanyahu's office appeared to confirm the proposal did come from israel. then in a statement shortly after that, hamas said that it views biden's speech, quote, positively. you may be thinking this deal looks similar to a proposal on the table about a month ago, before israel enter draw far, and it does. both contain many of the same elements. that deal appeared close to the finish line only to fall apart due to demands of the immediate withdrawal of all israeli groups from gaza and a permanent cease- fire that starts on day one of phase one. the day one permanent cease- fire is something that this new deal appears to address. joining me now is the former senior advisor for arab-israeli negotiations for the united nation state department. he serves as a senior fellow at the carnegie endowment for international peace. thanks for being with us. i saw you on tv this morning talking about this and i thought to myself, because we have known each other for a while, you are more positive on this you have been on a lot of things in the past. you don't think it is completely dead in the water. >> i don't. and again, thanks for having me. no one ever lost money betting against peace, in my experience. we are clearly closer than ever and it is hard to believe next week is the ninth month of this war. i think we are closer than ever in terms of finding a pathway to begin to de-escalate the conflict, but there is a lot about this that remains uncertain and, frankly, i don't think the issue lies in the creative ambiguity with respect to the text. the question of whether or not the principal combatants, two big players here, government of israel and hamas, have come to the conclusion that it is in their interest to begin to de- escalate. and the real question of course is whether or not the core demands, withdrawal of israeli forces from gaza, cessation of hostilities and an end to the war and israel's core objective, elimination of hamas capacity as a military organization and as the prime minister's statement suggests, a political organization as well. whether or not those core objectives can be met. my prediction, you will get to phase one and a six-week temporary pause. beyond that i think it is very difficult to see how we move quickly and the president admitted there is a lot about phase two that needs to be negotiated. how you move into phase two and what you and i would both like to see, which is war termination. >> it becomes easy to start parsing language and where the proposal came from and whose it is, but is there some emphasis on de-escalating on both sides? the concept of it being potentially an israeli proposal or one back solidly by the united states, as i said it was similar to one on the table less than a month ago. what do you think has happened behind the scenes? we know blinken has been all over the arab world, gathering support for this. is there some conversation you believe with the israelis and hamas to say you do have to take something that you are not going to like? >> well, this text didn't come out of nowhere and it has been worked on over the past several weeks, principally by the cia director and his counterpart, head of masada. so it is not immaculate conception or spontaneous combustion. this is being worked on. hamas had this proposal since thursday. we should also note that the israeli war cabinet as opposed to the full cabinet has approved this and it is notable, i must say, that the prime minister has chosen, whatever doubts he has and i am sure there are many, not to challenge the president publicly through his statements, but to issue i would say spins on what the prime minister's view is, to statements from his office. i think it is very significant the prime minister has not come out to challenge what the president did yesterday. so, sequence. hamas will have to come back with an answer. will it be yes, we accept? will they try to negotiate with additional conditions? will they demand cessation of operations in rafah? then depending on the response it will go to the full cabinet and at that point we are going to see where the prime minister stands in relationship to his extreme coalition ministers and whether or not we are talking about a situation that will fracture the government if they choose not to accept it. or allow us to take the next step. again, phase one, which is really, i think, what the administration would settle for. six weeks. six weeks of a cessation of hostilities and maybe you can begin to think about breaking the battlefield dynamic and moving to the next phase. hostages released, palestinians back to northern gaza. humanitarian aid, 600 trucks a day. all of that would represent a way forward, but again, i caution. negotiations as you know have two speeds. slow and slower. so i think we have to be pretty sober about where we are going right now. >> i will take any optimism i can ever squeeze out of you and latch onto it for a long time. thanks very much. you are always telling us what the truth likely is and we appreciate that. aaron david miller, former senior advisor for the united states state department. a current senior fellow for the american statecraft program at the carnegie endowment for international peace. five years ago nicole hannah jones set out to give us more information about our own history. conservatives treated this act of public service and civic engagement as an act of war. they responded with an assault on books, culture and diversity in all its forms. coming up i sit down with the pulitzer prize-winning journalist herself to talk about the movement she started and the backlash it provoked. p you heard a lot recently about an israeli military ground assault in rafah. prime minister benjamin netanyahu has been mulling it for months and the international community has warned against it just as long, which is why the story of how we got here is very complicated. we will walk through it together. before october 7 and the war that followed, 275,000 people lived in the city of rafah. like everything in gaza, it is geographically small. at 25 square miles it is the size of newark new jersey. or arlington, virginia. since october 7 rafah has become central to conversations around the war in gaza for more reasons than one. it is situated on the egyptian border, so when the assault began the rafah border crossing was the only path for food, medical supplies and fuel to enter gaza and for wounded palestinians and foreign citizens it was a way out. more than 1 million palestinians in gaza fled south after being warned to go there by the israeli government to avoid being attacked and now the israeli government plans to attack the very place that told palestinians they would be safe. let's take a look at how it all happened. on october 7, hamas infiltrated israel's borders. by our latest count, 121 hostages still remain in gaza. october 13, israel was preparing a large-scale, military response to invade gaza, eliminate hamas and rescue hostages. planes demonstrated -- distributed leaflets with the message, move south for your own safety. many sought safety in one of the largest cities in southern gaza. the idf then bombarded gaza city, killing hundreds of civilians. over the next several weeks the israeli military also continued to move south. on december 1, the idf began its assault. december 2, the israeli defense forces spokesman posted on x, urging palestinians to go to the known shelter centers in rafah for their safety. this is the first time to our knowledge that israel told palestinians to seek safety specifically in rafah. by february benjamin netanyahu ordered the military to begin planning and offensive in rafah, which he said was necessary to eliminate hamas and free the remaining hostages. president biden urged him not to do so. he did it again on a phone call in march. at this point, 30,000 people had been killed in gaza. april 9, israeli forces withdrew. some palestinians left rafah to return, but found only rebel, save for some unexploded emissions, so they returned south to rafah. at this .1 .4 million people, half of gaza's entire population, were sheltering in rafah. then on may 6 leaflets were dropped urging civilians to evacuate. within hours, israel began launching strikes toward eastern rafah, where it said hamas was hiding out. the biden administration paused a shipment of weapons that was meant for israel over concerns regarding rafah, which brings us to last week. an israeli airstrike triggered a fire that killed 45 people sheltering in tents in rafah. netanyahu described it as a tragic mishap, according to the nbc news translation, though the prime minister's office insisted afterward that the translation of what he said was a tragic incident. analysis from the new york times and washington post found munitions debris at the scene of the attack was designed and manufactured in the united states. secretary of state antony blinken said the united states could not confirm which weapons were used or how they were used in the strike. let me leave you with one more or a couple more dates if i may. march 10, president biden said right here on msnbc that an invasion of rafah would be a redline. on may 29, three days after the israeli airstrike sparked the fire which killed dozens of palestinians at the camp in rafah, the biden administration said those very actions did not cross the presidents redline. only purple's gel flex grid passes the raw egg test. no other mattress cradles your body and simultaneously supports your spine. memory foam doesn't come close. get your best sleep guaranteed. save up to $800 during our memorial day sale. visit purple.com or a store near you ( ♪ ♪ ) start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. five years ago, the investigative journalist nikole hannah-jones in collaboration with a long list of other journalist and historians published a longform piece in the new york times magazine. it was called the 1619 project. first published in august, 2019, the project marked 400 years since the beginning of slavery in america. the project was designed to make the consequences of slavery and contributions of black americans a larger part of our national discourse. nikole hannah-jones later developed that initiative into an award-winning book also called the 1619 project and if you haven't read it i highly recommend that you do or start with the essay titled, our democracy's founding ideals were false when they were written. black americans have fought to make them true. the premise is not complicated, nor should it be divisive. it is true. the principal everyman was created equal was not remotely true when it was written by this country's forefathers. nikole hannah-jones won a pulitzer prize for the project, but we know the story doesn't end there. if you months after, then president donald trump sparked what would become a nationwide backlash against her work. >> the left has warped, distorted and defiled the american story with deceptions, falsehoods and lies. there is no better example than the new york times totally discredited 1619 project. this project rewrites american history to teach our children that we were founded on the principle of oppression, not freedom, by viewing every issue through the lens of race. they want to impose a new segregation and we must not allow that to happen. >> much better story than what was actually happening. shortly thereafter trump issued executive orders targeting the idea specifically behind the 1619 project. one of those executive orders established something called the 1776 commission, a promise to implement what he called a patriotic education and the banning of divisive issues like reckoning with the racist history of this country. president biden repealed the commission on his first day in office, but the ideas behind it remain alive and well and strong across this country. in the following years after it was published, states would introduce at least 23 gag orders targeting the 1619 project by name. dozens more bills targeted it indirectly, usually by attempting to ban discussions of its core ideas. other ideas about how to think and talk about race in america got swept up in the battle as well. last year a study from ucla found that anti-critical race theory measures have been introduced in every single state except for delaware. the 1619 project is not critical race theory in itself, but it inspired such broad backlash that almost any program, project or theory about race came under attack. the effort to ban identity conscious programs has led to the end of affirmative action. it led to widespread attacks on systems built to promote true equity. project 2025, the blueprint for a potential second term for trump funded by the heritage foundation include suggestions to eliminate critical race theory, diversity, equity and inclusion and other paradigms from education nationwide from all federal departments, from as many parts of american life as it can. in fact the whole maga agenda can be seen as an answer to the 6019 project. it actively remotes the idea that claiming colorblindness is how we will achieve equality. it discourages or outlaws schools from teaching about systemic racism. it removes black and indigenous history from curricula. it glosses over the darkest parts of our national history. it claims encouraging people to consider race and systems of oppression is, in itself, a form of discrimination. pretending we can ignore race, pretending we can ignore the anti-black systems on which this country was built, is a disservice to us and threatens our democratic system to its very core. joining us now is the singular nikole hannah-jones, creator of the 1619 project and founder of the center for journalism and democracy at howard university. that was a lot. i remember when you first published this, before the book came out, you and i talked in this building and it was really remarkable and interesting, but i don't think any of us were thinking this is how it was going to unfold. >> i know. it has been five years, which seems at once a long time and a short time, but when you think of everything that happened since we had our first conversation, it really is remarkable. the way that government is using state power to mandate our ignorance. even as we see the effects of this playing out in our society every day. >> i left a lot of stuff out, including stuff that happened to you. you don't play, nor do you think you are a victim of this whole thing. in fact when we spoke a few months ago, i want to play back what you said to me about this. let's listen. >> no one is more surprised at what 1619 has become, symbolically, and what i have become symbolically. this was a work of journalism to me and i hoped people would read it, but i did not think it would spawn this backlash we have seen with all of these anti-critical race theory laws that began as 1619 project laws and have become this cultural phenomenon. it speaks to why we became journalists, understanding the impact and power we could have around narrative and how we see our society. >> that is the point of the exercise, right? you did provoke a discussion, so now what happens? you poked the bear. there was dry tender and you let it, now what happens? >> i think it is clear that you don't see a project facing this backlash if it is not having an impact. every day i speak all over the country and i see thousands of americans, white americans, latino americans, asian americans, black americans, who are saying i understand my country better. starting to critique so much of the inequality that we accept, but what happens next i think is largely dependent on us. which version of america are we going to allow to move forward? we are in, as you know, and extremely polarized time. a time where people whose views seem antithetical to democracy are really pulling the levers of power to make it harder for us to vote, to have a shared sense of civic obligation to each other. so i don't know what will happen next, but i fear, as i know you do, that we have some very dark times ahead unless we as americans decide we want a different country. >> i don't wish to draw you into a debate with donald trump, but what do you say to people who say you are trying to frame our history and society through race in some way that is damaging? i did not hear that. when i first read what you wrote and subsequently the book, that is not how i saw it. i saw you adding more information to our knowledge about ourselves. >> it is fascinating to hear that argument from people themselves obsessed with race. attacks on affirmative action, attacks on immigrants, these are race obsessions, but they are pretending that it is people like myself and the work that we produced that is divisive. we have to be honest about our history. parts of our history are very ugly, but how can we possibly try to become the country of our highest ideals of we are not honest about what we are built upon? if you actually read the project it is the most patriotic -- >> it is not angry. it is simply here is a piece of the story left out of our own narrative about ourselves. why don't we have a more complete look at this thing. it does not come away as angry or vengeful or divisive. >> no, i mean what it argues is that we failed to live up to our ideals, but that black americans joined with other americans to fight to try to make those ideals manifest. it actually is empowering. it says we don't have to accept the society that we have and i think the highest calling of patriotism is not to say we can't ever critique our country, but if our country is great we have to work to make it so. that is true patriotism. most of the people who critique this project or tried to ban this history, it is clear that they have not read it or have not grappled seriously with the idea and arguments. >> you were the impetus for us starting the band book club and that is the point. most people have not read them, they just have ideas about what they are. this is your invitation. it is published, you can read it for yourself and then be mad about it or like it or whatever, but at least you can be informed. >> always great to talk to you. >> nikole hannah-jones is a pulitzer prize-winning reporter with the new york times magazine and the creator of the 1619 project. we will be right back. more "velshi" after the break. i'm not gonna slide tackle. but now with tide oxi 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(fisher investments) we have a transparent fee, structured so we do better when you do better. at fisher investments, we're clearly different. coming up on another hour of "velshi", we are not yet 48 hours into this brand-new chapter of american history, where a former president and presumptive nominee is set to walk into his party's convention as a convicted felon and already donald trump's disinformation army is fully deployed against the rule of law. plus, the legitimate crisis at the supreme court is growing worse by the weekend makes us all more vulnerable to the war on democracy. and we are watching the latest from the middle east after president biden outlined a cease-fire proposal. ase-fire. response to the verdict of donald trump tells us about the state of the party and the

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