Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline 20240703

I truly hope this man ends up prison. Cohen says sounds right. Nicolle wallace will pick it up from here. Thank you as well. All of our guests that have joined us including duncan, we will see you back here on thursday afternoon when were going to do it all over again. Dont go anywhere. Deadline white house starts right now. Hi, everyone. We have a packed house. Its 4 00 in new york. After putting donald trump in the room where it happened, where that allegedly criminal scheme to hide hush money payments ahead of the 2016 president ial election was hatched, the expresident s former fixer Michael Cohen today closed the loop on the story that often sounds like it is straight out of a bad mafia movie. Cohen describing donald trump operating like a mob boss who became president of the United States using a back channel to keep cohen quiet and loyal and cohen describing going to prison and ultimately breaking with donald trump. The man he served for more than a decade. Happening right now, Michael Cohen is facing crossexamination. Hes answering questions from trump attorney todd blanche. It is sometimes very testy. Its sometimes very flat. Well get into all of it. And it comes after Michael Cohen recounted to the jury everything in his life that led up to this moment. Cohen describing meeting with donald trump in the oval office and being reassured that he would get paid for paying off Stormy Daniels. Getting reimbursed for the hush money payments going through it check by check by check by check by check by check by check by check and by check, invoice, invoice, invoice, every last one of them. This is important because each one of these documents amounts to one of the Felony Charges against donald trump. Cohen also described the 2018 raid by the fbi saying he was, quote, Concerned Despondent and angry. After that trump told him this, quote, dont worry, im the president of the United States. Theres nothing here. Everythings going to be okay. Stay tough. You are going to be okay. That would be the last time the two men would ever speak. Michael cohen telling the jury that he faced pressure to hire an ally of Rudy Giulianis, Attorney Robert Past Tell Lo who acted as a back channel to trump, sleep well tonight, you have friends in high places. The message from team trump to cohen was very clear, cohen saying, he was saying stay loyal, dont cooperate, dont flip. Essentially saying it on twitter at the same time which was entered into evidence. Ultimately Michael Cohen would plead guilty. That came in August Of 2018 because he decided that, quote, i would not lie for President Trump any longer. Prosecution reminded everyone that Michael Cohen went to prison for doing something at trumps direction, in a sentencing memo. Prosecutor asked this, quote, why, in fact, did you pay that money to Stormy Daniels . Cohen, to ensure the story would not come out and affect mr. Trumps chances of becoming president of the United States. Prosecutor Susan Hoffinger asked, quote, if not for the election would you have paid the money to Stormy Daniels . Cohen replies, no, maam. Prosecutor Susan Hoffinger asked, at his direction did you pay the money . Cohen says, trumps. The prosecutions questioning ends with prosecutor Susan Hoffinger asking Michael Cohen if he has any greets working for trump, to which he responded, quote, i regret doing things for him that i should not have, lying, bullying people to effectuate the goal. I do not regret working for the trump organization. I expressed before, some very interesting and great times. To keep a loyalty and do the things he asked me to do, i violated my law compass and suffered the penalty, as has my family. A dramatic day of testimony from a former Trump Loyalist Turned Star Witness For The Prosecution that is very much still happening under way at this hour where we begin with our most favorite reporters and friends with us at the table for the hour, Msnbc Legal Analyst Andrew Weissmann is here. Just back from the courthouse. Nbc news correspondent Vaughn Hillyard is here. New york times Investigative Reporter susan craig joins us and former federal prosecutor and sdny deputy chief, Msnbc Legal Analyst, Christy Greenberg is here. Vaughn hillyard, Word On The Street is blanche is bombing. How is that going to go over with trump . A man supposed to be his voice. Sue and i were on the subway and following along the last hour and wondering if there was going to be is that fair . A dialog from todd blanche going on the offense against Michael Cohen. But that hasnt taken place yet. Over the course of the first several minutes there was a drawn out back and forth over whether he leaked a story to the press or not. All of us sitting in the courthouse there were looking at one another like this is not what we anticipated. Were thinking there was going to be questions about his credibility. Even when todd blanche brought up a photo of Michael Cohen wearing a shirt that had donald trump behind bars, even then Michael Cohen was very dispassionate, yeah, i wore that shirt, and the jury they have heard this. They know who Michael Cohen is at this point, so it was just Something Else to watch this afternoon unfold. This morning, when answering the questions of the prosecution, he was dispassionate, believable figure there, and so far that is who the jury has in their mind right now. I read some of it and what seemed i read msnbcs Reporting Blanche has been preparing for this moment, but i also wonder if that months long planning didnt get recalibrated over the last 48 hours when the prosecution didnt just hang a lantern, they shined a light on all of Michael Cohens warts, the lies, the shame, the loyalty, the leaks. Thats what the second day of direct was. Right. Im not i dont think that they did, though. Im not a lawyer, but if i was todd blanche i would have started out and had a bunch of questions, youve called donald trump a jerk. Youve called him the worst person on earth. Youve called him this. I would have gone on and tried to get that sort of thing out and at least create some sort of narrative and then go into how hes monetized it. He seemed to be jumping all over. He started i thought out of the gate he started strong, weve never met, have we . He says, youve called me, this is like family tv i cant say it, but a really horrible thing. The most the worst objection. And then an objection right away. It did wake everybody up and the jury heard it. Hes been bobbing and weaving around Different Things rather than going i think topic by topic. He elicited five minutes ago a defense of Michael Cohen in response to todd blanche, quote, at the time i was knee deep into the cult of donald trump. Essentially suggesting yes, i looked at him as my surrogate family. And that is who what the jury is hearing, Michael Cohen saying i was so far in to donald trump, i would do whatever it took to be there to defend him. He hasnt gotten Michael Cohen riled. Thats where they want to go, get Michael Cohen really agitated. Michael cohen is a little bit agitated but Michael Cohen wakes up a little bit agitated. You know todd blanche. You worked with him. Is this his thing . No. I mean, i dont know why he would start about Michael Cohen calling him names. It seems like hes got a thin skin. This is this has nothing to do with him. I would think the first question would be youre a convicted liar. You have lied, youve lied to the irs, to banks, youve lied to congress. Like point out the lies because that is where thats really his achilles heel. He cant quite fully admit all of his lies to this day. I didnt think he really did it on direct even at the end when he was still kind of dancing around whether hes admitted and really taken responsibility for all of the crimes, the ones that did not involve donald trump, the tax fraud, bank fraud, that had nothing to do with trump, and he was still, you know, yes, i pled guilty to it and i dont dispute the facts but they really shouldnt have come after me for that and it was wrong of the prosecutor. She shouldnt have come after my wife. He said they shouldnt come after his wife, he was threatened, which again, i dont know the specifics of what happened there, but generally in my experience in that office, thats not generally how these things go. I mean, jeff berman in his book said they were surprised when Michael Cohen said he was going to take a plea. It wasnt something they were expecting. They were expecting to go to trial. You know, again, what he has said publicly about that is actually very different than what he said on the stand. What he said publicly in numerous interviews i dispute the facts, i didnt commit tax evasion, i didnt do these things. Point out the inconsistencies. Get go on the offensive and once you can show that he has lied about certain this then you want to get the jury to say if hes lying about these matters you cant trust him, and you cant trust him on these matters. Thats maybe more of a natural way to go. Instead, youre obsessed with trump, love the attention, love talking to the press, and that to me is a so what. Im not sure thats where you start. It was the analysis of some of our legal experts and friends, that Stormy Daniels performed better on cross, so are they not strong at cross . Do we have a pattern here yet . Well, i think its a combination of sort of the on direct for Stormy Daniels, i think you have to remember, its a highprofile matter for both the prosecutor, its not every day you have this searing spotlight. For Stormy Daniels, its not every day not only are you testifying under oath in a criminal case but a searing spotlight. Direct which should be the easiest can be rocky for the witness and prosecutor. I can tell you, i used to say a highprofile case brings out every flaw you have. If you have a lot like me thats a lot to bring out. For a witness, just think about Stormy Daniels, who might have, you know, may not be proud of everything in her life and certainly for Michael Cohen who has to admit a lot, its difficult. So theres a reason direct can sometimes be stilted. By i think Stormy Daniels cross was im sure Susan Necheles doesnt like hearing this, but i think Susan Necheles dehumanized her and allowed her to speak and she was more comfortable and i think that happens when you have another day to sort of relax. I think that Michael Cohen, having heard him live on i thought he was sort of remarkably good. I also think people should i think stop saying oh, hes a different person. Lawrence owe donald made this point when in court under oath you are a different person. Theres a different circumstance. You act differently. Ive been a witness. Sometimes you take that oath so seriously, it is as if you are careful. You know, people have different parts of themselves. Its like getting pulled over from secondary screening. Yes, maam, yes, sir, no. I will say also, todd blanche its an interesting choice to have him do this. Just because its your first time, doesnt mean youll be bad at it, but, you know, he is not an experienced Defense Lawyer. Hes an experienced prosecutor. Its a very different art form. I think so far, with a witness who has so much baggage, so many ways to attack him, youre not hearing what you usually get from a Defense Lawyer, which is clear, telegraphed, themes to a jury. And so i was, frankly, shocked that he started the way he did. It was i totally agree with kristi, beyond thin skinned, rude, it was clearly going to get an objection. I am not surprised that you do not want your first line of argument be sustained by the judge. Jurors tend to like judges and sort of follow their lead. That was not great. Theres so many better ways to deal with it. I feel because a lot of this stuff deals with the special Counsel Office and inknow personally, there were things that i thought were misleading and i dont mean that Defense Lawyer shouldnt have been asking it, but i was like oh, come on. They tried to say didnt donald trump sort of during the Russian Investigation you were told not to speak to donald trump, as if like somehow youve been shunned, and that donald trump couldnt possibly have told you through indirectly what to say when you testified in front of congress. That is not how it works. These kind of cases, everyone is lawyered up. The fact that youre told that means youre inside the tent, not outside the tent. And the suggestion this means donald trump had no way of communicating to him. Hes tweeting at him the day before and after. Lawyers talk. Im not saying theyre saying lie, but they can communicate to what they think is a truthful story as to what should be said, and, so i just thought there was some fast and loose with the facts. And thats a fact problem. There seems to be i just want to be blunt about whats happening right now. There is clearly a Performance Issue that judge merchan has noted, objections that have been sustained, described by reporters in the room, as combative when questioning. If he bombs at the Performance Level, what where does that leave you with trump . Usually you get the boot as the lawyer. How many lawyers trump doesnt i mean trump didnt care where you went to law school. He wants you to look the part. Feels like this may be a moment. Thats why he lost the decision, the civil fraud trial. Alina habba performed in his eyes how a lawyer should perform and who was sitting in the second row today, alina habba, not there arguing in his defense but sitting there as a witness. I felt like there was some channeling of donald trump at the beginning. One of the first things we get out hes a liar and a folder, or, you know a folder. Flipper. The adjectives. But that was one of the first things that came out, was that hes a leaker to the media, and these are all things that donald trump is very focused on. Not things that trump i guess my point is, what are you handing me . What do you got . So next to you. This is happening right now. We should keep an eye on whats happening right now. I was not a lawyer and wasnt in the room but a student of donald trump and when someone is viewed to have bombed at a Performance Level he doesnt care if youre the smartest lawyer who breathed in air. This may be a tenuous air. Its too late to get rid of his lawyers. The second part is, being inside of that courthouse here today, usually ive been outside here getting the notes from our team and sue and andrew were like you have to bear witness to this. Im glad i did. The eyes. We come back to the eyes being shut for two minutes at a time. He would have his eyes shut this morning. Then he would open them quickly, mention something to his attorney and back to his eyes shut. I dont know whether hes sleeping or not. What was taking me aback was it was defiance of the process. Right. Thats so interesting. Theres a gag order placed on him. He cant stand up and speak out in his own defense in that courtroom unless he takes the stand. Keeping his eyes shut almost in way of disregarding it, i dont care, about these proceedings with the jury right there, was his act of defiance. It really does feel that way. We were talking about this at lunch and ive come down on having seen him do it every day. Its not one day this happened. It is every day for 80 to 90 of the court proceedings, He Hs His Eye closed. He will nod off but thats not whats going on. His eyes closed i think it is an act of defiance, sending a message. The jury is picking up on something there, but he doesnt care. So interesting. Whats happening right now, i want to ask you about the final sort of chunk of the narrative on direct, that was this morning. I mean, some old characters, Jeff Sessions. I mean i had a million new questions about what when sessions recuses himself from all, we went back and looked at it, i covered it as and believed it to be sessions recusing himself from the russia question. If you go back and watch the video he says im recusing myself from all campaign related things. What cohen testifies to today under oath is that sessions was going to take care of pecker. That is not russia related. That is the coverup. Right. He says that donald trump specifically told him that sessions would have his back. Its incredible. Its a direct line. Donald trump saying were getting into the white house. Dont worry about this. The Justice Department is going to be on our side. Youre taken care of here. When were talking about the closing of the direct, Michael Cohen, to Andrews Point about the human side of this, right, all of us have different personalities. 8 00 a. M. May be different than 8 00 p. M. , saturday vaughn may be different than sunday vaughn. Tell us more. And with Michael Cohen i think thats a reality. Yeah. He was talking about being on tiktok but what you saw in there was somebody that felt to me he pled guilty to those federal charges just yesterday and being sentenced. When he was explaining looking eye to eye with the jurors of what he pleaded guilty to and being in prison for more than a year, you are hearing a man who was leaving his wife and his child behind. That was the human that in that moment, and i believe a real human that came out, and that is what jury the line he delivered, quote, i regret doing things for him that i should not have. Lying, bullying people in order to effectuate the goal. It sounded like a regretful man, somebody at least that moment in time was that human. All the other mikecles could be true but in that moment that is who the jury heard. And thats the michael that was a piece of the crime. I mean thats the michael that the jury is going have to believe on those questions. And i think also its wrong for people to be confusing is he believable about things he experienced and conversations he has had, meetings hes had, while things were happening, and comparing that to is he credible about his own internal motivations now, and about sort of being honest with himself about can he fully admit, i did something wrong and every situation. Those are Different Things. And you dont have to believe that he has like completely internalized like who he is now and that he is like he should feel sorry. Whether he really, really feels sorry or knows thats where he needs to be is a really different attribute about a person and its funny this is where having dealt with cooperate teres and Defense Lawyers deal with this all the time when you have witnesses of their clients and those are just very Different Things and people sort of confuse the two. This is just like in terms of his own emotions about how he feels now and whether hes regretful or not is not the issue. Whether hes a fully reformed man is interesting and it will be on the minds, im sure of the jurors. Theyll wonder that. In terms of being a credible witness to the criminal scheme he and Allen Weisselberg put on paper and walked into Trumps Office thats a different question. The sessions line that weve been talking about, i mean as someone who investigated all these actors in this time period did that leap out you and did you know that . Well, i wanted to say one thing and i cant believe im about to say this in Jeff Sessions defense, a lot of times people may say oh, dont worry, i can get this fixed, but, you know, if you were to ask the person at the Department Of Justice, they would be like, what are you talking about . Thats true for republican and democratic administration, whether people think they somehow have a line or theres sort of, you know, touting something. I guess the proof is in the pudding. If you read jeff bermans book, the doj is burning the phone lines to sdny to impact from the Decision Making to the lawyering to the words in cohens sentencing memo. I would say on that is, i would focus more on bill barr than on Jeff Sessions. And politically, i disagree with so much of Jeff Sessions, but remember he got the boot. He was fired for understanding that the department of Justice Needs to be independent. At the end of the day he understood something that is to the trump world, barr is a completely different animal and you can cite chapter and verse of the complete fund mental denigration of the Department Of Justice from him, Justice Alito in the immunity argument, it is rampant that the former Law And Order party of the republican is long gone. Quickly, cohens testimony that pecker wanted reassurance that sessions would not prosecute him, gets to their State Of Mind they have knowledge theyre committing crimes. Absolutely. Completely dont worry, because either its Jeff Sessions or the dangling of pardons. Pardons came up too. Rang true for Special Counsel muellers investigation. I have a million more questions and we have to sneak in a break. Were continuing to track, though, whats happening inside the courtroom. A whats being described as an uneven crossexamination of Michael Cohen thats under way right now. Plus, one speaker of the house, leader of the rnc and school of other contenders to be Donald Trumps number two vp pick descended on the courthouse in manhattan today to do the work the expresident cant because of the courtmandated gag order. Well dive into all of it over the next two hours. Dont go anywhere. Nywhere. Raser and the Cleaning Power of dawn. Watch it make soap scum here. Disappear. And sprays can leave grime like that ultra foamy melts it on contact. Magic. New ultra foamy magic eraser. A lot of new dry eye patients in my office tell me about their frequent dry eyes, which may point to dry eye disease. Millions of americans were estimated to have it. Theyve tried artificial tears again and again, but the relief is temporary. Xiidra can provide lasting relief. Xiidra treats the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease. Dont use if youre allergic to xiidra. 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It is painful to admit that i was motivated by ambition at tiles. It is more painful to admit that many times i ignored my conscience and acted loyal to a man i should not have. Sitting here today, it seems unbelievable that i was so mesmerized by donald trump that i was willing to do things for him that i knew were absolutely wrong. For that reason, i have come here to apologize to my family, to my government, and to the American People. Accordingly, let me now tell you about mr. Trump. I got to know him very well, working very closely with him for more than ten years as his executive Vice President and Special Counsel, and then as personal attorney when he became president. So suzanne, he went through the whole story of how he came to be trumps guy, and we talked yesterday about how he felt when he successfully, you know, slayed for the boss, which is sort of what he evoked. Today was almost bleak. The remorse. It felt to me like the real i saw maybe because i know him, i grade on a curve, i saw a real owning up and leveling up to a life in some ways ruined. He cant be a lawyer anymore when asked. I think blanche was doing this, do you get rich on your podcast. Hes a podcaster because he cant practice law because thats a consequence of being a convicted felon. I wonder, i know theres a lot to work with on his credibility. Thats not where todd blanche is spending his time. Court is over for the day. Cohen has another day to pep. Do you think blanche is the guy doing this again when back in session. I do. I dont think they will switch anything out mid game. But maybe more of a strategy coming in thursday morning. I have to tell you, i agree it was hard to listen to the end of the direct because he you know hes broken. We can see him. Hes broken. But to hear that conversation he had with his family in 2018, where, you know, i dont know who in his family, but it was his son or daughters or his wife asked him, why are you hanging on to this loyalty . And this moment he had where he finally said i realized i had to listen to them and let it go. Like it was just almost like he just couldnt be wrong about donald trump and it was destroying his life. I thought that moment was really striking. The other moment i found very striking was, and it ended up getting cut off and they had to narrow some of the question, but they let him go for a little bit when he talked about the Ankle Bracelet when he was supposed to i want to play some of that. This is what cohen said about going to solitary, which is still i think the biggest bar scandal that no one pays attention to. So i was on furlow, which is the way that institution had returned me home waiting to meet with a Company Called geo, getting fitted with an Ankle Bracelet, going from prison to home confinement. Quote, i was finally given a date and supposed to the following day head to the bronx to sign the paperwork and to do the installation of the Ankle Bracelet. Instead, i received a phone call from an individual by the name of adam pekula at 500 pearl street, area of the Southern District of new york, and im told i need to go there instead of up to the bronx. We go there. And were brought into an office with adam pekul and the supervisor and give us a two paige document supposed to locate the federal monitoring agreement. It does not look like ale from document to Me And My Friend draft and the first paragraph is a broad paragraph of First Amendment violations. Im not allowed to speak to the press. Blanche objects. Mr. Cohen, did the agreement prevent grew speaking and writing publicly. Michael cohen, yes. When you were presented the agreement did you question it . I did. Prosecutor, as a result of questioning it were you sent back to prison . Michael cohen, yes. When you went to prison where were you sent . Back to solitary confinement. Goes to get fitted for an Ankle Bracelet, went to bill barrs sdny asking him to sign a paper so he wont write a book, and he goes into solitary. This is where you find out hes falling down a rabbit hole. The federal judge who said this is improper and let him out. And said this should not have happened. But, you know, i have to say, welcome to bill barrs Justice Department. Where is horowitz, the only Inspector General that doesnt get fired by donald trump. Dont get me started. Youre triggering me. Stories like this didnt get appropriate attention or scrutiny. The Inspector General system is flawed and an exhibit to that is the idea that you have Inspector Generals who were in place during the trump administration. They saw what bill barr was doing. Nothing. Only this one. I think horowitz is the only one still there. Yeah. This guy in charge when this happened. Does this happen at sdny . No. To be clear i dont put this on the prosecutors necessarily. This was a Bureau Of Prisons Decision that came with orders up on high. I dont think this was the prosecutors having anything to do with this. I also think that this really shows you the book ends. We heard earlier in the day, we saw those email exchanges with Robert Costello who said im Rudy Giulianis guy, were going to have these back channels and one where hes president of the United States, so youll be taken care of. Its all going to be okay. This is sleep well. You have friends in high places. See those messages and know this is when youre on his good side. You see the flip side of when you flip what happens. He will make sure his Justice Department will take care of you and retaliate. And, so i thought that moment was such a powerful moment because you really saw like wow, you know, donald trump is vicious. He is vindictive and going to use the government to do his bidding. I want to ask you about the Oval Office Meeting. This also was today. I think that the missed opportunity may be again, not a lawyer, the cross comes out, this guy is a scoundrel, you lose this stuff. Because it wasnt wowing anybody, the jury Looking Yawny towards the end, this is i want to show you cohen describing the Oval Office Meeting not from court today. Let me read it. This is how cohen describes it. Picture the scene in February Of 2017 one month into his presidency, i, Michael Cohen, am visiting President Donald Trump in the oval office for the first time. It is truthfully awe inspiring. Hes showing me around, pointing to different paintings and says me something to the effect of, dont worry, michael. Your january and february reimbursement checks are coming, they were fedexed from new york and takes a while to get through the system. I received the first check for the reimbursement of 70,000. I thought when they put up all of the checks is that your invoice, your check, yes, was it fraudulent, yes. They did it for all 12. It was powerful. It was, and there was one email is that righted it off, where Michael Cohen actually saying says, can you remind me, jeff, what the amount was each month. Right. Im going, thats not how lawyers bill. Lawyers thats right. Provide services know what the services cost. Yeah. And usually there are time sheets, sometimes, as andrew knows, down to the 6 minute increments heres the work and amount of time i spent on it. Donald trump scrutinizes his bills and wants to know how much hes paying for what, and the idea that, you know, its just how much was it again, theres no retainer agreement, theres no time sheet, its just this invoice that says Legal Services for the month and they dont know the amount like it was just so striking. Its not how these look. Again you have two jurors on that jury they know this is not what Legal Services invoices look like. Chris hayes made the point last night we have enough testimony in the record undisputed no objections about how tight he was with money. This is the reimbursement for the hush money plus more than 2 x. Trump didnt overpay anyone for anything. Chris hayes point theres no way Allen Weisselberg didnt show him those numbers and explain why it was 130 plus. Right. Weisselberg again worked for fred trump. Hes been around a while here. And for donald trump, right, and seeing these numbers here and being the Micro Manager that he is, i think there is acknowledgement by Michael Cohen today he did no work for him in the year of 2017, so there was nothing to actually bill him for in reality and, in fact, he did more work for him in the year of 2018 when he was trying to work through Arbitration Action against Stormy Daniels, so for Michael Cohen, telling this jury very explicitly like you can see all of the writings on this bill here, but i didnt do anything in 2017 as the invoice suggested. Youre going to hear the state say, Michael Cohen has told you that, of course, he told donald trump and you know what, he had 130,000 reasons to tell him because as he said, i wanted to get repaid. Yeah. So he actually had 130,000 to get repaid and because it was going to be income he had 260,000 reasons to do it. And the same thing for Allen Weisselberg. What would be his motive to not tell him . I mean thats at the end of the day, thats the issue in the case. All of these other things go away. It is the defense has to be Allen Weisselberg knew, Michael Cohen knew, and they did not tell donald trump. Thats that is just thats implausible and goes against all logic and the direct testimony. And trumps own words entered into evidence from his Ghost Writers in his books he loves to hand out. A quick break for us and well all be right back. Nd well all be right back. [ Phone Ringing ] george, can you get that . George agh george. Hello george, can you mute the music . [ id. 4 Voice Assistant ] alright. [ music stops ] thank you, george. For what . Tmobile savings, take one. Guys, focus. Heres the line. at tmobile, you get tons of benefits, and you can still save versus the other guys. focus hello tmobile. Hold on. You might want to just. Ok stop just say it like this, at tmobile, you can save on every plan, and you get great benefits with magenta status. Magenta status. Yuh ill show you my magenta status. Ok, ill just do it. Check out the tmobile savings calculator to see how much you can save. And right now, well even pay off your phone when you switch [shaking] itchy pet . with chewy, save 20 on your first pharmacy order so you can put an end to the itch. Get flea and tick medication delivered right to your door. [panting] your record label is taking off. But so is your sound engineer. You need to hire. I need indeed. Indeed you do. Indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. Visit indeed. Com hire he behaves exactly the way that i described him. Hes like a mob boss. If you cross him, youre going to get it. And hes going to inflict as much pain and as much damage as he possibly can. The problem is, you cant you cant damage me anymore. As i write in my prologue. Im broken broken. To be away from my family for what . To lose my law license, my business, finances, my familys happiness, you know, what do you think that youre going to do with your ridiculous tweets . By the way, you know, n this tweet of today, now, as i pointed out he doesnt even spell properly. Liar is liar at least have the decency to spell it right. Hes blunt. Im broken, broken. That was Michael Cohen. An interview with rachel maddow. Joining our coverage david kelly, served as chief of sdnys Organized Crime and Terrorism Unit and represented former fbi director jim comey after the 2016 election. A treat to talk to you. I wonder if youre surprised by how many overt references to how similar to a mob boss donald trump is. If youre surprised so much of that, i mean i thought maybe a subtle illusion to, you know how it is, they tell you without telling you, but it became overt and i wonder if you thought that was effective . I think it is effective. The question here is about him directing activity, right. The paradigm for the mob boss is that he directs everything without having his fingerprints on anything and i think thats one of the threads here, one of the themes for this case. David, mob prosecutions, at least in the movies, are often centered around financial crimes. It seems that this is almost textbook. The documents, if they could speak r yelling i did it, i did it. I wonder, as the direct ended and cross started, where you think things stand in terms of the argument thats been made before the jury . I got to tell you ive been following reports of the crossexamination of cohen, and im really unmoved by it. I think that the most important part of the case came before cohen. I think they had to put cohen on the stand, but so long as they have corroborated everything that he is going to say, i think they basically have a very strong circumstantial case, and now they have some direct evidence about it, but theres so much there is so much corroboration of cohen i think, you know, you just have to, as a prosecutor, accept all your vulnerabilities with the witness here and corroborate everywhere you can and theyve done that. Ive put on the witness stand the only eyewitness to a murder over medicated schizophrenic who was an alcoholic and stoned at the time he saw it but because we were able to corroborate everything it worked. I think not put Michael Cohen in the same category but the principle is the same, so much corroboration i think all these things are hitting on cross is just kind of water off a ducks back. 25 visits, thats how many times Michael Cohen went, once alvin bragg became the district attorney, i dont know how many times he visited before that, its clear to me there was a reverse engineering, he was probably asked do you have any documents, do you have any email, who else was in the room, and to your point all those other people and all those other documents, testified before cohen did. One of the things that surprised me, though, and this may be from covering the political moment from the outside, was just how moby Rudy Giulianis attorney and friend mr. Costello was in handling Michael Cohen while trump was president. Hes clearly talking about trump, talking to rudy, who is relaying it, rudy representing in the mueller probe. Do the details fill in a period we knew about or were those disturbing . I dont think theyre disturbing. I think, you know, again, it goes back to the Mob Boss Thing Somebody is, you know, directing traffic and really directing things and have other people run things for them. The fact of the problem here is that the people running things for him, like bob costello and so forth, were a little too cute and so ultimately the buffer they were supposed to be, proves to be not a buffer at all, but pretty transparent. Stormy daniels attorney said yesterday on cnn she wore a bulletproof vest, her home address has been publicized in right wing media. I wonder what youve done in the past or your thoughts are how you protect witnesses in highprofile cases like this . We have the Witness Protection Program in mob cases where we send people away. Security is always a tremendous issue, particularly, you know, depending on what case is. Something like this where you have somebody who has, you know, a gag order because they are out there essentially implicitly others to intimidate witnesses thats a really concern. Its an unfortunate theme in this case, but its there and real and needs to be, you know, vigilantly pursued and protected against. Clearly the theres no remedy for the Loophole Trump seems to have exploited to have all of his political allies wear matching outfits and Dot Violating of the gag order for him . Yeah. I think you can only go so far. I think judge merchan has done a terrific job of navigating that effectively. But i think when it comes to witness safety, there is no failsafe method of protecting against anybody who is looking to intimidate or a witness or obstruct a case in any sort of way. Let me ask you about the underlying crime. This doesnt need to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but every witness has testified to the intense motive trump had between the release of the access Hollywood Tape and the payout of 130,000 to Stormy Daniels of a singular concern about his candidacy. We have him in his own voice, by the cspan guy. How would you assess their effectiveness in that narrative . I think its been very effective and i mean i was thinking the other day, its very easy to do the math here. It all adds up, temporally and logically as to why he is doing this and why he would go to these extreme efforts to keep Stormy Daniels story quiet. You know, weve talked a bit at the beginning and andrew was talking about this a couple weeks ago, about the dual motives here. Sure, there was could have been concerns about the family, but as its unfolded, it really is a complete in the shadows side of the story, and i think the motive and intent here driven by what was going on in the campaign has been very clear from the governments case. I think it has not suffered in any way under attack by crossexamination. David kelly, always a privilege to get to talk to you. Thank you very much for joining us on this historic day. Were going to sneak in a quick break and be right back with everybody. Everybody. Its a beautiful. Day to fly. Wooooo millions of children are fighting to survive due to inequality, conflict, poverty and the climate crisis. Save the children® is working alongside communities to provide a better life for children. And theres a way you can help. Please call or go online to give just 10 a month. Only 0. 33 a day. We urgently need 1000 new monthly donors in the next 30 days to help the children we support around the world. 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Were talking a 2 footlong churro. 3 Footlong Pretzel and a five Dollar Footlong cookie. Every Epic Footlong deserves the perfect sidekick. Order one with your favorite subway series sub today. Clems not a morning person. Or a. People person. But he is an i can solve this in 4 different ways person. You need clem. Clem needs benefits. Work with principal so we can help you with a plan thats right for him. You know what im saying . Let our Expertise Round out yours. S i was going to ask you to pick up on this point that david kelly was making about the treatment of witnesses. Trump had his supporters dress alike. It was clownish to me. When you were asking david that, i was thinking theres not an Organized Crime case that i have ever ever done,s that was bread and butter in the eastern new york, lots of Organized Crime case cans from the main witness goes on and away you see in the back of the courtroom, the defendants buddies, associates and soldiers in the crime family, sitting there to show a show of support. And also typically in the line of sight of the witness to try to sort of rattle them. I was just like, really . Like i was like the last time i saw this was an Organized Crime case. Jim comey early on was the first person to say about donald trump and his insistence on loyalty over loyalty to the constitution that he thought it was a mob boss. I still remember the first time i heard that, i i remember thinking come on. Like thats too much. And hes right. Im not saying that the murders and kind of things that Organized Crime does, but the way in which they operate outside of the rules of law and expecting to loyalty, jim really had had had it right. Is that what it looked like inside the courtroom . They had their eyes on Michael Cohen and susan the sbhier time that questioning was taking place. The irony to a certain extent of it was by my count, Michael Cohen said today ep ten different times that the reason that he continued to lie for donald trump was to, quote, protect trump. And then you see the likes of speaker mike johnson, the speakerer of the house here in Lower Manhattan come out and do what donald trump cant do and attack the witness Michael Cohen. Out there in front of cameras outside of the courthouse, said that Michael Cohen was doing this for Revenge Mission here. Just the contrast of where one man was, who wasnt even in 2016 in the u. S. Congress and now eight years later, hes out in front of these cameras for donald trump. Its really just the journey of donald trump and the republican party. I just think the gag order came to mind when i say saw them parading in. They are saying what donald trump cant. They need to show their fidelity. They have been asked to come. Thats what he wants. Were seeing them being able to say the things that he cant say. Its interesting to take the mob theory a step further. We saw today there was a message where hes referred to as the big boss, the big boss approved the statement to the press Stormy Daniels. And the fact that they are referring to hims a a boss and the fact that it was clear that they had to get his approval before anybody is going to the press, before any steps are being taken, donald trump has to say yes. And thats the theme throughout this whole case. Who ordered the code red . This was something that our colleague said that i thought was brilliant. Did Colonel Order The Code Red from a few good men. That was so powerful in seeing that in the documents themselves. We heard it in the testimony. It is very moblike. And i think the jury will get it that that is the issue and they will get the answer right. To your point, the code red comes when they put him on the stand its precisely why trump wont take the stand. He wouldnt be able to help saying that. Exactly. Its a perfect move. Youll all be be back tomorrow . Well say to be continued. The best of the best. Our thanks for spending the hour with us. We have only halfway done on this huge day of news. We have much more breaking News Coverage on what has been a truly extraordinary unexpected day. Michael cohen finishing strong on direct. Trumps team getting off to a bumpy start on cross. Well have much more on the other side of a short break. Dont go anywhere a short break. Dont go anywher t to help ease you back in to the dating scene. 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And weve developed a way to make new ones from 100 recycled plastic. New bottles made using no new plastic. Youll be seeing more of these bottles in more places. And when we get more of them back. We can use less new plastic. See how our bottles are made to be remade. Mr. Trump directed me to use my own personal funds from a Home Equity Line of credit to avoid any money being traced back to him that could negatively impact his campaign, and i did that too without bothering to consider whether that was improper, much less whether it was the right thing to do or how it would impact me, my family, or the public. And i am going to jail, in part, because of my decision to help mr. Trump hide that payment from the American People before they voted a few days later. That is the Michael Cohen who showed up in court today. Hi again, everybody. Its 5 00 in new york on day that has not turned out the way anyone thought it would. Its opinion a day about consequences, specifically consequences for the expresident s incredibly loyal former fixer on full dispolice before the jury, ones like going to prison, that trump so far has alluded in the last hour. Todays Court Session came to a close ending with Michael Cohens bumpy crossexamination by trump lawyer todd blanche. We expect to pick up on thursday when court resumes. Blanches line of questioning that started out hot as our friend just described it. Confrontational, but never really landed. Sort of like an awkward comedy skit. Never setting up any sort of cohesive Nar Neverlanding two blows in a row, getting objected to over and over again. Todd blanche questioned Michael Cohen about comments he made on social media, about lies cohen admitted to under direct examination, about cohens past affection and devotion to donald trump to which cohen responded, quote, at that time, i was knee deep into the cult of donald trump. But all that drama following the direct examination earlier today where the drama really happened. Cohen was able to establish trump being at the center of the paper. And the reimbursements that he received for 12 months after paying Stormy Daniels 130,000 to keep quiet about her sexual encounter with donald trump a decade prior ahead of the 2016 election. Cohen places his exboss directly at the scene of the crime. Or in this case as the guy directing the crime. The lawyer for the prosecution, asking cohen to state why he paid 130,000 to Stormy Daniels to which Michael Cohen replies, quote, to ensure that the story would not come out. Would not affect mr. Trumps chances of becoming president of the United States. Prosecutor then asked at whose direction Michael Cohen paid Stormy Daniels. Trumps Michael Cohen replies, which brings us back to the idea of consequences. Michael cohen would plead guilty and go to prison for his own description putting loyalty to donald trump over the law. He faced a penalty for the crimes had committed for donald trump. Soon a jury will decide if cohens exboss should face any consequences as well. Thats where we start the hour. Sol is of our most favorite reporters outside the courthouse. Yasmin vossoughian is back. Lucky for us, a full table, former attorney and Deputy Assistant attorney general harry litman is back. Law professor Melissa Murray is back. And former Executive Editor Special Correspondent for the holywood Reporter Lockland Cartwright is back. Tell me about lets start with the cross. Thats what was happening until about 35 minutes ago. Tell me how this sort of bombed. It did bomb. Blanche kind of came in hot and he kind of had this full frontal attack about some things that Michael Cohen had put up on tiktok. And you were like this is the aggressive Machine Gun Approach that he would want want. And then we were left with Thismy Ran Dering Type of dance that suggests that Michael Cohen had gone rogue. Not to comment in the media and put anything out there. It was almost like they were trying to set that up as a premise for going rogue with donald trump. And then there was almost like this other sort of Side Conversation i didnt even track that. They were trying to establish he didnt do what he was told to do. That was my read on it. Michael cohen went rogue because the d. A. Told him he would have followed instructions. Hes going rogue with donald trump with these payments and the agreements. The other thing that i kind of found interesting that i thought they were trying to set up here was that he was obsessed with donald trump. He had this kind of obsession and was jolted by trump and hes out for revenge. Both lineses just didnt hit. I was confused. I do get confused easily, but the jury was more puzzled than i think anyone. The times blog has the jury yawning and looking unmoved. I want to ask you again, it doesnt matter what they were trying to do, because the reporting is now in. It didnt land. What is your sense of what has been squandered . Todd blanche, im sure, will regroup and practice and will have another chance, but what when a cross of of the star witness doesnt land, how much have you lost with the jury . The first 45 minutes of the crossexamination you could have said this two months ago, the single most important block of time in the entire trial for them. And they could have come on and meanderered. He was inconsistent. He seemed to be kind of groping at one topic and then going to another. He did get interrupted with many objections, each of which broke his rhythm. And when you he scored a couple points. There was one time where cohen quibbled a little on the difference between something something inaccurate and lying and he pushed him to the wall, but when you put it against this being the Opportunity Cost of this exact examination and the beginning of this examination, what they have lost is incalculable. I thought the prosecution landed, in some ways, the dirtiest version of Michael Cohen in his own words. Yes, i committed crimes. Yes, i lied. And so i i wonder if that tripped him up or what do you think happened . Sgri wanted to speak to that because convention until wisdom, first of all, would have put cohen earlier so that wouldnt be the jurors last memory, and certainly would have said you tick off his problems somewhere in the middle. Instead, they made it a kind of morality play. And at the very end, they went through and with not overstated, i regret that i bullied. I regret that i lied. I regret that the American People didnt have information because of me. It was really effective. They actually ended with the worst part, but showed him as not a redeemed man, but a contrite one. And the jury, without a doubt, was more focused at that final 45 minutes than they were any time in the trial. And therefore, when blanche got up and couldnt get rhythm, the contrast was very distinct. Just to say, i think the prosecution was very smart in laying out the redemption art for Michael Cohen for the last week and a half. He was on trial before he even took the stand. And everyone had talked last week about what a terrible guy Michael Cohen was. So when Michael Cohen came in on monday and again today, he didnt have to do that much to redeem himself. So he did have the be contrite and then we can move on. Because it had already been prebutted. We knew he was a dirty, filthy guy going into it. The prosecution let that come out first. Ask is more importantly, the prosecution has said all along, Michael Cohen is not the star here. The documents are the star. Michael cohen, Stormy Daniels, all these other people, they are icing to corroborate the documents and the documents are the case. Thats the meat of their case. I have covered Michael Cohen. Hes very available to the media. That came up. Michael cohen was caricatured. He wasnt just malign. He was character cherted. Well have to duoback and study this. But the prosecution got insults about Michael Cohen from everybody. Keith davidson, he was the second or third witness talking about how anowing he was. Talking about how persistent he was. Hope hicks saying he wasnt a generous guy. And whether they knew it or not, all of them were bolstering the prosecutions case because they didnt need him to be generous. They needed him to be the opposite of generous. They needed Michael Cohen to be the guy that never laid out 10,000 unless he was damn sure he was going to get payback. They needed him to be a guy who only did things for Donald Trumps praise because that puts donald trump in the middle of the criminal scheme. And they seem to have played the trump team completely. I thought blanche was going to get up and go at evidence of the criminality because it was so obvious these two days of tail light. Instead it seemed like a flat rookie night at open mic club. Reporter its interesting. I have been kind of seeing this is and explaining it as stages of grief. They havent gotten into the timeline. With direct they went through the timeline. On this date, in january of 201, you had this meeting with donald trump and trump tower. In February Of 2017, you went to the white house. They have not yet gotten to the part, and ill ill be interested to see what happens tomorrow, as to poking holes in the timeline. Instead its been this meandering over the last two and a hof hours of stages of grief. You had an ax to grind with donald trump. You were after him. You were media hungry. You went opt msnbc and cbs and tiktok. How many podcasts have you done . How many times have you talked about donald trump. Every single time it seemed so. You lied, you lied. Ha that is what they have been doing over the last two and a half hours. To which where do they go next . I think one of the interesting things is with regards to Michael Cohens testimony and how he answered things, because you know Michael Cohen. I have interviewed Michael Cohen as well on my show. I remember interviewing him about the trump civil fraud trial. In this conversation that i had with him, i said, listen, you were a part of the way in which these properties were assessed and overvaluing Donald Trumps properties. What do you have to say to that. You were a party to this. And its never something that Michael Cohen really wanted to necessarily admit outright. Just saying, yeah, i was and now i changed my tune. And we did see that today in his testimony where he said it sounds like something i would say. Yeah, sure, i guess its something i said. I guess so. I will agree on that one. It will be interesting to see if he changes his tone tomorrow the, especially as they get away more from attacking Michael Cohens personality, despite the fact that it was already set up right by the testimony of keith davidson, who is said he didnt want to work with Michael Cohen. He was too hard to work with, so they brought in dylan howard. If they get away more from the testimony about Michael Cohens personality and more towards kind of the facts, the timeline and poking holes and falsifying the documents. I didnt hear him say one word about the documents. They havent gone near it. I have that part of the transcript in front of me. Michael cohens first podcast he the called donald trump a, quote, borish cartoonist massagist. Had said that line over and over again. He referred to him as a cheeto dusted cartoon villain. Sounds like something i would say. Blanche says, do you recall you began talking about how you wanted trump to be convicted of a crime. Do you hope this man is in prison, that sounds right. What do we think the point was of that . I got to say lets remember how he started this off. Which was blanche saying you called me a crying little blank. He objected to that. That was out of the gate. And he said, that sounded like something i would say. Again, its speaking to this kind of you have an ax to grind, youre media hungry, youre just saying what you want to say to get the applause of the media and the folks that are watching this whole thing. Its all a show. S this is the case that they are building more of this i guess, kind of public persona case or marketing case versus what should be happening in the courtroom, which is about the documents. You and i have talked about this many times. This is going to come down to the documents. The star witness of this case is not Michael Cohen. So much of his testimony, especially during direct, was about admitting evidence. It wasnt even necessaily about the anecdotes that Michael Cohen was telling about Donald Trumps involvement in those conversations saying, yes, pay stormy daniel, im going to pay you pack. It was about admitting those documents. It was about admitting so many Important Documents that Bank Document in which alan said were going to gross up to 420,000. Then they talked about it on january 17th. How are they going to poke holes in that portion of the case . Sure, they have talked about the fact that Michael Cohen loves to go on tiktok. We know that. He wears a tshirt with donald trump behind bars. We know that. He loves the media. He admitted today he loves going on television. We all know that. How are they going to poke holes in the documents and poke holes in the timeline . They havent shown us how because they havent gotten into it. Maybe its because they dont have a plan for that. I thought it was an effective legal strategy to put up all 12 of the Fraud Invoices and then to say after each one, was this fake, yes. I was just going to try to jump in. Because a moment the jury was engaged. When i looked at them and they were gripped to their screens was this series of Phoney Invoices that went up. And Michael Cohen was asked was this paid to retainer. No, maam. Do you recognize the signature. And they did over and over and over again. And you would think people would get bored with it because they know the obvious answer. The jury was glued to this. It was so effective. And what i thought was interesting is that there were three people with power. Some were signed by don jr. All were signed by alan weisselberg. Some were signed by donald trump. Because either you can sit there and say how is it 34 felony counts. Ha they establish is each one was an act of fraud. I thought that was dramatic saying who signed this one. Eric trump who spent a lot of time liking down was very much looking up when that was going on. What do you think jurors thought of that . Thats something we dont know. With can talk about what the first 45 minutes or what lands with us, but the jurors are 12 people who have just learning about each other. We dont know how this is landing with them. I just did jury duty last week. Its a weird place. Lots of things happen. You become familiar. I wasnt picked. But even there you see these weird group dynamics. Were seeing seem to be pretty selfaware of the kind of tasks. You dont see them coming in and chatting or whatever. Soldiers of justice marching in and marching back. I want to say one quick thing though in fairness out of sympathy for the defense. It goes with what we were saying, the big points they can score, he says these things and sounds like something i would the say and has an ax to grind. Those are so straight forward. What they need to go farther. As we were ending, trying out something that i think will not land, saying that he really changed his mind, only because he was trying to curry favor to get a lesser sentence. It was then rather than but this is the point that everyone at home has to remember. The burden here is on the government. The government has the huge uphill burden to proof guilt. Im not saying they havent done a great job laying this out with the documents. What i am saying is all the defense has to do is poke holes. Sort of. Were going to get in a fight. What do you think . No, heres what i want to say. They need a little more. Its true that if they really think about it seriously, but they need a narrative. Theres always this battle at the end with defense and prosecuting attorneys beyond a reasonable doubt. And prosecution said beyond a reasonable doubt. We need a reason. And i think so it could still be with the documents, but they have been papted more and more. They have started this idea, and this goes back to something the prosecution did with voir dire. The prosecution asked the jurors, you understand what its like to have a hitman. But hes not the one pulling the trigger. You understand how that works. They are setting it up. The entire narrative is all of this happened but donald trump didnt orchestrate. If. Hes been more conservative. Let me show you when infidelity is the topic. And the subject is a president ial candidate. One is john edwards. This has come up, and i thought this came up effectively. And listen, they are human beings behind this, but to the motive, to the thing that makes these felonies, this is what trump is avoiding. And i thought that Michael Cohen coming back to his sort of ending with i was a bully, i did whatever i had to do. Thats at the center of it. Thavs what he was trying to protect donald trump from. We talked about this many a time. Its those moments after the act less access is Hollywood Tape, and dylan howard didnt have that much interest in it. But All Of A Sudden, theres intense value in this because they need to take this story off the market. Why, we know why. Because Stormy Daniels told us why. Its incredibly evident. This was a plot, a conspiracy to sbeer fear with the 2016 election. All true. And whats left out of fairness is was he somehow absent minded in signing the checks. A lot of circumstantial evidence. Maybe the jury will had laugh at it too. Its plebty of instances. Hands on the Nuclear Cloeds codes. But when its his pennies, we have had no idea what the jury is going to do. In terms of the evidence thats been presented to them, its trump in his own words talking about how hes in charge of every dime that goes out. Its saying i was fired for a day because i didnt haggle down all the bills. Its cohen describing how he gets the job and he gets the job because he dpets all the vendors to Trump University to take 20 of what is owed to them. This to be the first time trump spends not just what he owes the Adult Film Actress, they grossed it up to hide it. Its david pecker saying Michael Cohen couldnt take somebody to lunch without trumps approval. Were going to sneak in a quick break. So much more to get to on this uncan want anded day of examine in the irs ever criminal trial of an american expresident. Well be back in a minute. Plus the damage caused to our democracy and the rule of law. But another trump ally oddly dressed similarly at the courthouse today. Democracy expert joins our conversation later in the broadcast. Deadline white house continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. After a quick. Dont go anywhere. Today, at americas beverage companies,. Our bottles might still look the same. But they can be remade in a whole new way. Thanks to you. 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This was entered into evidence today. This is about cohen and a back channel to donald trump. Prosecutor susan hofen engineer, what did you understand to be commune indicating here . Michael cohen, this is part of the Pressure Campaign that even is lying to you. That you are still regarded. The president still supports you. Do not speak. Do not listen to what any of the journalists or anybody are saying and stay in the fold. Dont flip. Dont speak. Dont cooperate. What did you understand he was telling you . Michael cohen, not to. The attorney, what did you understand him to be saying to you in terms of, if you really want things to happen, if if you want to make things known, you should let me know. What did you understand that to be about . Michael cohen, again, him, rudys friend being a back channel. Back channel to who . To the president via Rudy Giuliani. So rudy was representing trump in the mueller investigation. This time mr. Costello its like i feel like the genera of movies is so etc. Seemed. Its like a bad mob movie, but we had a sense from the outside this was happening because basted on the things trump was saying in interviews and twitter. Its amazing to hear it in cohens testimony. Its flat out obstruction. And the only thing that surprised me is cohen said this made him feel better. When i read it, i was thinking of de niro saying you g down there, theres so the coats for you and he knows hes going to get whacked. It seems so clearly through costello, Michael Cohen said costello was sleazy and whatever. You can imagine how sleazy he was. It struck me as being complete Ly Mob Driven from the start. It was flat out obstruction. This also this testimony isnt necessarily about trump being in the room for the documents. But it gets at the panic. The risk, the Flashing Red Light that cohen represents once hes cooperating. Could you see the jury during any of this . I think that that sleep well tonight, your friends in high places, when that was read, i think everyone on the courtroom was just like, what was that . And thats an email. Explain that. Thats an email from bob costello. Thats rudys lawyer. And then goes on to say some positive comments about you in the white house. Its just not even this underlying kind of were watching you. Its just all they are in writing. It was just amaze med at how bla sant it was. Unlike pecker and cohen, who turned to signal, Costello Just just used email. Im just going to email you thinkmy threats from the white house. It was amazing. Reporter one of the first questions also that you didnt read was susan asking, did you tell costello the truth about Stormy Danielss. Did you say that donald trump had sex with Stormy Daniels, and Michael Cohen said no. He said because i didnt trust him because he would tell friend. His friend is Rudy Giuliani. Who is his friends client at the hittime, the president of the United States. Just to give brief background and you talked about it briefly, but important to say, costello, a friend of Rudy Giuliani, it seems as if donald trump and Rudy Giuliani were trying to get Michael Cohen to the get to retain his attorney and he did not do that. And through away youd think would be a back channel communication, but instead drew these emails what do you want tell my friend to communicate to his client. The conversation, lets just remember the timeline. In april when Michael Cohens apartment was raised, he had a conversation with donald trump at the time and harry just mentioned this. Donald trump essentially saying im paraphrasing here, i support you, im loyal to you, were going to be okay. Were going to figure it out. Im president of the United States. Michael cohen is saying i feel pretty good. The president of the United States is supporting me. That was the last conversation he ever had with donald trump. Fast forward five months or so, and that is when Michael Cohen pled guilty in a court of law just down the street from where im standing. By the way, you know who made me do it . The sitting president of the United States. Heres him telling that story to congress in september of 2020. Last fall, i pled guilty in Federal Court to tellnys for the benefit of at the direction of, and in coordination with individual number one. For the record, individual number one is president donald j. Trump. It is painful to admit that i was motivated by ambition at times. It is even more painful to admit that many times i ignored my conscious and acted loyal to a man when i should not have. Sitting here today, it seems unbelievable that i was so mesmerized by donald trump that i was willing to do things for him that i knew were absolutely wrong. What the prosecution was able to get from cohen was this selfreflection its not the easiest thing to do. But he did go there. In that final chunk of his direct. And because of the uneven weakness of the beginning of the cross, i think that is sort of the most impactful thing that the jurors heard today. I think it certainly was an impactful thing that the jury heard today. I dont know because Everybody Knows Michael Cohen prth well. During the testimony from hope hicks and keith davidson, if they bought that Michael Cohen was apologizing to the American People because he cared about this country and he was worried about how that would land with the American People, but the fact that he was having a come to jesus moment about his lies, i think that was incredibly impactful. Etc. S personally because on cross, there was so much meandering in the last two hours. To speak to the bigger crime of election interference, its important to talk about while some dispute whether Michael Cohen should have been at the end of the prosecutions witnesses, it speaks to how its tying so much of the testimony together. What i mean by that is you heard Michael Cohen talk about how donald trump was worried about his poll numbers. Hope hicks and madelyn testified to the fact that donald trump at the time when the access Hollywood Tape came out was worried about his family. I dont think anybody can really go on the record and say donald trump is a family man. We can say that by fact he doesnt seem to be a Family Man Frrks what we know about publicly. They testified to the fact that had he was concerned about Melania Trump and his family. Michael cohen said, in fact, it was different. He was concerned about his polling numbers. How it would land with women. And then you did hear hope hicks say he was concerned about women. He was concerned about his polling numbers, and then there was dylan hoard and keith davidson, who said, what have we done . All of this testimony coming together what was happening in the lead up to the election and why he was doing what he was doing. That brings you back into the story. What gets undone is Mcdougal Bautz you talked to the wall street journal. That has come up in the current testimony. Correct. When that was referenced again today, the pieces that keep filling in for me, the thing with mcdougal payment, which is obviously different its something we took care of in house. And then what spirals out later is that the stormy thing comes on when pecker says i wont be the bank. I wont continue with these payoffs. Thats where Michael Cohen comes in. Michael cohen has to be the one that takes out the loan and then makes this payment. Whats amazing is that a lot of cohens testimony was about how they were going to pay back the fee. And thats what he tapes him for. To reassure pecker that trumps good for the money. Thats the one piece of trump sound thats been played. It never plays david pecker that tape. And never pays him a dime. And sort of takes his victory lap and says, no, we dont know that. So worth underscoring this is really not what they teach you in prosecutor school. They did something very unconventional in ending with all his skeletons. Its something when you. Do you think that threw blanche off . I think a lot of things threw him off. Hes not a defense plaur. So he has experience as a former prosecutor, but i think this is his first high profile criminal trial. I think it showed. Certainly in the ability to get into a ritzment and its shown. I was very surprised that they did not take over cross for Michael Cohen today. I think that was a big mistake. Cross is such a special skill. He bombed. So far. Yeah. Thank you for starting us off this hour. Stick around. When we come back, we have been talking about it. The speaker of the house, second in line to the presidency, he was down at the courthouse today to lead the Cheering Section for the disgraced expresident and help him work around the gag order. Now a stung but not surprising admission by one senator about what they were doing on purpose out loud in an interrue. Well show it to you, next. L sht theres Nothing Better than a subway series footlong. Except when you add on an all new footlong sidekick. Were talking a 2 footlong churro. 3 Footlong Pretzel and a five Dollar Footlong cookie. Every Epic Footlong deserves the perfect sidekick. Order one with your favorite subway series sub today. When we say itll be on time, they expect it to be on time. Turn shipping to your advantage. Keep those expectations with reliable ground shipping. Thanks brandon. With usps ground advantage®. Only purples Gel Flex Grid passes the raw egg test. No other mattress cradles your body and simultaneously supports your spine. With usps ground advantage®. Memory foam doesnt come close. Get your best sleep guaranteed. Save up to 800 during our memorial day sale. Visit purple. Com or a store near you mike johnson, angel call christian, took a break to be in new york in person to watch a would be aud democrat face consequences for cheating on his wife and hiding it from the American People. It wouldnt make a lot of sense if the rest werent familiar with how those on earth roll. The courthouse smile and wave, johnson performed this morning, so rem any sent of what Michael Cohen described in his testimony as an eagerness to please the boss and a top of the world feeling with being recognized by the boss. While some trump surrogates traveled to new york in their attempt to land a spot on his vp short list like seen here, speaker johnsons appearance today was less about political gain and perhaps more about political survival given his position among his more extreme colleagues. In the end it comes down to the same thing. Even as he defends himself and the secrets he works to hide from the american electorate, donald trump has the republican the party wrapped around his finger. Joining us is ian bass is here. Harry and melissa are with us. Sometimes there are some suspense in these things. Were they trying to go around the gag order . We had a confession from Tommy Tuberville. Hopefully we have more and more senators in congress go up every day to represent him and be able to go out and overcome the gag order. Thats one of the reasons we went. To speak our peace for President Trump. I guess we love that he gives it to us. Were you trying to go against the gag order and intimidate witnesses because trump cant . Yes, sir, thats exactly what we were doing. We talk about the rule of law. The rule of law is the letter of the law. Its the spirit of the law. The spirit of the law doesnt say Tommy Tuberville can attack the witness, but thats what the spirit of the law it. In some ways, perhaps were lucky that these are the keystone crooks and they leave evidence of their crimes on the crime scene as tuberville alludes to doing there. One of the reasons they feel so brazen and comfortable doing that is because they are essentially constructing a protection racket against accountability. And thats the bigger picture, i think, about whats going on with these sort of pill gram grimmages to lower mabt. For years now, donald trump has been building a wall. But its not a wall at the southern border. Its a wall around himself to protect himself from accountability. Ask on january 6th, that wall, he had manned by proud boys and oath keepers and violent militias. Today hes having that wall manned by the Top Republican elected officials in the country. In november, hes hoping that wall will be manned by voters. But if hes successful in doing that, he will not have built a wall that will keep any foreigners out of the country. He will simply have built a wall that keeps americans out of power. He will have placed himself in the high castle surrounded by walls that dont allow any of us to have a say in governing and have built for him an impenetrable fortress. It feels like the project is farther along than most realize and think were just choosing between a normal republican and a normal democrat. How do you see it . Well, one of the ironies about this is i think one of the driving causes of the democracy crisis that were currently experiencing is a sense that the system is rigged. That there isnt really accountability for the powerful or for the wealth chris. I think it goes back to the financial crisis in 2007, 2008 when i think the fundamental social copact in america was broken in many peoples eyes. We had had lived in a country that the perception was that if you worked hard and you played by the rules, you could get ahead. And i think one of the reactions to the financial crisis was that people who broke the rules, who got to the front of the line, but who were rich and powerful didnt face consequences. And those playing by the rules were the ones who suffered. Fundamentally fractured the social compound. Donald trump took advantage that saying the system is rigged. Theres one set of rouch rules for the rich and powerful. He accused Hillary Clinton say ing if you had done what she had done, you would have gotten in trouble, but she doesnt because shes rich and powerful. The person who is most benefitted from that dual tier set of rules is donald trump, who because he was born rich and powerful has gotten away with every violation over the course of his life and achieved the presidency. But the danger is he is not actually running to fix this problem. Hes running to prove it exists. The piece of it that i think has changed in the most stark manner is this is all about trump not wanting his voters to know that he had had sex with an Adult Film Actress in 2006. Now, hes running on being an insurrectionist. Its such a little window into how he thought the rules applied to him with women voters in 16. Hes running as someone who has to criminalize doctors who perform boorgss abortions and the women who seek them. Its a totally different world. I sometimes think if i had been in a dark place and still at American Media and coming into this election year, what were some of the crazed front pages we could cook up. I couldnt even conceive some of this stuff. And thissen entourage that keeps coming through, the core squad, the nightclub, we look back and this person and this person, they just keep coming. Its gotten absurd. They are wearing matching outfits and speaking on queue. They go out and do the press conference and come back in. Its this theater they are performing. Its not lost on anyone that they are doing what trump cant do, attacking the witness. Ventriloquists for trump violating the gag order because your father cant do it. I will never unhear that. Ian is right. Theres something profoundly disturbing about this. In 2016 he does think that all of the consequences that would apply to a john edwards, to anyone ls else would apply to him too and now its brazen. Hes an oath breaking insurrectionist and these elected members of Congress Still show up because they are literally so mesmerized by him. So eager to be in his tlauls, so eager to be his side kick and number two. And and apparently not even conscious of what they are doing is breaking the rule of law. They are proud about it. We have to sneak in a quick break. Well be right back. O sneak in k break. Well be right back. What causes a curve down there . Is it peyronies disease . Will it get worse . How common is it . Who can i talk to . 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She wore a bullet proof vest every day until she got to the courthouse. Before she came sunday, she cried herself to sleep. She was paralyzed with fear. Not of taking the stand or telling her story, but what some nut might do to her. Im concerned about it as well. That was Stormy Daniels lawyer. It is comical the way trumps stooges act. They succeed in making people feel frightened and afraid because they gin up his supporters to hate anyone who threatens him and that includes witnesses in this trial. Yeah, i mean, thats both a deliberate strategy with respect to individual people like Stormy Daniels, but its a broader risk for our society as a whole. The irony here is the politicians who are traipsing over to Lower Manhattan are many of the same politicians who have been decrying why that see as chaos around the country, whether they called it the chaos of the protests of 2020 or the chaos they say is taking place on College Campuses or the chaos thats defiling the subway systems, theyre all about being against chaos. In our society the way you hold back chaos is through our institutions and Law Enforcement institutions, the exact institutions theyre undermining of credibility. I dont know what they think theyre doing, but if you want to unleash chaos, attack the institutions that reign it in which is what trump is contributing to. Melissa, theres a haphazard nature to the way Trump Supporters function, but to ians point theres been a methodical diminishing in the faith in the rule of law among trumps base. You see it in the brazenness in which they say, hell, yeah, were going around the gag order. Historically there have been limited checks on executive authority. Impeachment used to be a check. Its now a paper tiger. The media has been debunked as being extremely liberal or conservatively and biased. The judicial system, donald trump has talked about obama judges and trump judges and suggested that the supreme court, or at least some of them, are in the bag for him. Ian is right. You want to unleash chaos, you have to diminish the electorates faith in the institutions that soldier and bolster democracy. When those are gone, all you have left is this lone figure, the man in the high tower and you have to put your faith in that. Its amazing that trump who was such a mess that he needed david pecker to survive, he had to make up stories about ted cruz and marco rubio to get through this nomination is annihilating american institutions. He was going down to the apple store to download things to communicate. Its absolutely wild how we got here. It feels like, look, were here focussed on a set of facts and will he be convicted . Then the window opens, maybe because the senators traipse through and you get the broader Vantage Point on whats going on and whats at stake and from that little scenario All Of A Sudden you you know, theres a terrifying horizon. That happens once a week here. To your point, they attacked the judges daughter. Not this gaggle today, but the others. Its a behavior thats beneath elected officials. Its extra judicial. You derive and project what happens if hes elected et cetera and the whole system you dont have to. They put it in writing, the 2025 project. Everyone has poo pooed this case. Its tau dri and salacious. Its how general practices have been eroded. Now its fine for the senior senator from alabama to talk about coming to manhattan to kiss the ring and violate the gag order. Not just him. Stormy has to wear a bullet proof vest because theyve unleashed who knows who in the country. Ian, what does the road back look like . Its what youve seen happen in poland and the Czech Republic where youve had this movements come to power. Where you stop them is where everyone agrees on democracy. If we hold that coalition together, thats the road back. You and liz cheney and joe biden have to talk me through how that works. Ian, melissa, harry, thank you for spending time with us today. Another break for us. Well be right back. A prebioti. new projects means new project managers. You need to hire. I need indeed. Indeed you do. When you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. Visit indeed. Com hire and get started today. Letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. Were grateful. The beat with