Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline 20240703

At times as money grubbing, inconsistent, driven by personal hatred, even rolling out that shes crazy line of attack against her. At one point Attorney Susan Necheles said you have, quote, a lot of experience making phony stories about sex. To which daniels replied wow thats now how i would put it. The sex in the films is real just like what happened to me in that room. To try to prove that Stormy Daniels profited off her association with donald trump, trumps Defense Lawyers pointed out stormy sold merchandise to which Stormy Daniels fired back, quote, not unlike mr. Trump. Team trump also suggested that Stormy Daniels opposed trump politically and wanted to take him down. A line of questioning that comes with a lot of risks for the expresident s team. As nbc news reports the defense spent considerable time trying to prove that daniels had a political motive for wanting to out trumps story, trying to hurt his election bid. Wouldnt that bolster the prosecutions arguments trump had for wanting to silence her. The d. A. s office reminded everyone donald trump is the only person on trial, not Stormy Daniels, bringing up a devastating piece of evidence. They asked Stormy Daniels about an admission by Michael Cohen and trump in a lawsuit that donald trump had reimbursed cohen the 130,000 for the nda with Stormy Daniels. The prosecution in this line of Argument Points out even if she has made money from her association with trump her fame has come at a steep price. Stormy daniels said she has had to deal with an avalanche of threats, deal with legal fees, prosecutor Susan Hoffman asked her on balance has your publicity been has publicly telling the truth about donald trump been a net positive or net negative for your life . Stormy daniels replied, negative. A defiant Stormy Daniels on the stand on day 14 of the trump election interference hush money trial, is where we begin today with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. With us for the hour, New York Times Investigative Reporter susan craig, joining us, msnbc legal analyst Andrew Weissmann, plus former Executive Editor with American Media inc and special correspondent for the hollywood reporter. Lockland cartwright is back. We will start with nbcs von hillyard joining us from outside the courthouse. Von, i read political threaters and i kind of hate them, but i kind of love them, but i hate when the tension is so much that reading them makes me feel sick and reading the transcript and the vitriol that was directed at Stormy Daniels at some points, i had that physical reaction to the aggressiveness with which ill just say it, they tried to slut shame her and the slut shaming came in the form arent all your adult films fake. I thought she i have no idea what the jurors were thinking, how they experienced her direct examination and, therefore, no idea how they would have experienced the crossexamination, but as a woman, as someone who has covered the trump story now for nine years, i thought the Disparaging Treatment of Stormy Daniels is an example in how class has entered into this trial. Hope hicks weeping, people rush to bring her tissues. Stormy daniels, whose story trump thought would make people so uncomfortable he paid to keep it quiet seemed to be treated differently than anybody else. What you saw today inside of that courthouse was a woman owning her story repeatedly for hours, owning her story. A former president of the United States hired a Defense Attorney, nicole, sue necheles, and that Defense Attorney went on the attack against that individual Stormy Daniels and tried to undercut her story, tried to extract the idea that there were discrepancies in her story in every step of the way. Stormy daniels fought back against the suggestion that somehow her story of had changed and she said look, if i wanted to write a thriller, right, she goes, i would have written a different story. If that story was untrue i would have written it to be a lot better. Susan necheles asked her your story has completely changed. Stormy daniels replied not at all. Youre trying to make me say it has changed but it hasnt changed. Lets start with the fact that donald trump coming into this trial had repeatedly issued Blanket Denials about his involvement and his engagements with Stormy Daniels out of the one photo outside of the one photo on at that golf tournament. What Stormy Daniels when she testified she testified that they had met up the night after with ben roethlisberger, they had two to three phone calls for weeks following the 2006 interaction. She was invited to an event in hollywood in 2007. He invited her to trump tower where they met to talk about her potentially appearing ones Celebrity Apprentice and Donald Trumps attorney who was the individual allowed to be that voice inside that courtroom, did not question her on a litany of those alleged corruption she claimed to have had with donald trump. Instead, the attorney focused on a couple questions whether she had dinner with donald trump on that One Night Stand in 2006. Questioned her on the 2011 parking lot incident. By and large over the course of hours under crossexamination, Stormy Daniels stood by her story and stood by the fact that she appeared in 150 porn films. She stood by the need to make money for her and her family. She stood by the allegations she made against the former president of the United States in the current Presumptive Republican nominee for the white house in 2024. Nicole . Andrew weissmann, your thoughts . Right now, there is one person, if you look at what happened in that room, her testimony, there was one person who has testified under oath and been cross examined aggressively for a full day, if you added in tuesday and today. The other person has said, without any sort of accountability for it, that it didnt happen, but he has not testified to it. This reminds me of the impeachments where he could have testified. He was happy to not do that. He constantly is trying to avoid any situation where he will be held to account . Trump. Didnt come in for mueller or either impeachments, hasnt testified at any of these trials about this. And so no accountability. The difference in the way she was treated when what shes talking about is a consensual relationship and think about how she was treated in the last day with david pecker, he testified he needed immunity because of his because what he was revealing was criminal. It was an effort to, per his words, intentionally defame people with an agreement with donald trump to do that, to intentionally catch and kill the defendant. That is the bottom line. Because its a woman, people who relate to readily and because this is what she undergoes. You know, could hear her and i really wish people could hear it and not hear it secondhand from us. I was so interested today because i wasnt there tuesday and, you know, my impression, having seen lots of trials, and im not speaking for the jury. No. It was kind of a home run. For who . For the witness. In what way . Susan necheles she did what she had to do. A lot of times you try Different Things in crossexamination and they dont all land. There were certain lines of cross that you knew were going to be a given which is she said she can speak to the dead and she had a good explanation for that. She wants to make money from this. She had a good explanation, its not that it didnt it happened and she wants to make money, its not that its fake and she wanted to make money from it. So much else just felt by the wayside including i thought something that was sort of touching and heartbreaking and shows that the witness is smart, is careful, unflappable, where she said, no, you dont understand, all im saying about donald trump, the worst thing he did, is he lied about what happened. Everything else that happened in that room is on me. Its my fault. It was so which was the heart of her direct testimony, that i laid there and couldnt figure out between myself how i got here. It was a moment where she was saying, i am not blaming anyone else and at one point, Susan Necheles is trying to say, youre a strong, powerful woman, you could have just walked out. She goes, im stronger now. Yeah. As opposed to when she was 20. What strikes me is what trump said to her, is you are just like my Daughter Ivanka. You are smart and attractive and underestimated. And what seemed to be on trial today was how she acts in every day and year after that. What do you think the prosecution did right and wrong in terms of keeping her testimony and her story focused on what is alleged to be criminal . So i think that the one thing that i think may have gone too far on direct is, you have a witness who on cross, was so good about saying, its on me. That we may all think thats not totally accurate, but thats with sex. Thats how she thinks about it. I fault myself for putting myself in that position. He can be faulted for lying about it. And i think i would have tried to hit that theme of how shes viewing it more on how did that come out more on direct. Its a little hard to fault the direct because she was so clearly, she was nervous. I think Susan Huffinger the d. A. Is nervous. Having done big cases you really shouldnt discount that, that, you know, this is her first big witness in the trial, and so, you know, i think everyone talked too fast. I think people didnt get a strong sense of Stormy Daniels and everyones reaction that i talked to, she did better, that the witness did better on cross because she sort of settled in, she didnt want to have words put in her mouth. You really got a sense of, you know, shes she seems very comfortable in her skin in terms of who she is and she was not going to let, you know, her story be mischaracterized. Very impressive. When you i think whats so interesting is everyones down the bottom of the rabbit hole of the story, whatever anyone thinks of the story and the person telling it, trump didnt want the story and the person telling it to tell it before people voted in 2016, and so its fascinating that everyone is reacting to their own reactions, human, female, male, otherwise, the sex, our country that cannot deal in a comfortable way of anyones telling sex, sex between an Adult Film Actor and a president , but whatever it is that we feel about that story, trump didnt want us to feel it before election day 2016. Correct. As im hearing on tuesday and on watching her today, nicole, it hit me. You dont break an nda because youre having a laugh. You dont put yourself through this two days because its fun. She spoke about having to move several times for her daughters safety. The legal bills. Thousands of dollars of legal bills breaking my nda. Shes putting herself through the most intense scrutiny and every time they tried to hit her she came back and kept sort of pushing back and, you know, she was incredibly resilient on the stand. What does that mean . Going into that, this is what theyre going to do. Undermine her credibility say shes in it for the money, shes crazy, the same things people say when they go on the record and try to undercut them. She was able to push back to the level she came across as genuine. What does that mean . Shes telling the truth. Shes telling the truth. Von, you have breaking news about a decision about Karen Mcdougal, explain. Right. Just getting this in here right now. Karen mcdougal is not going to be called by the District Attorneys Office to come forward as a witness here in this trial of donald trump. Karen mcdougal, if the prosecution had brought her forward, would have be been able to corroborate the infidelity of donald trump. She said she engaged in a tenmonth extramarital affair with him, but also there was the testimony from Stormy Daniels that they both were invited and introduced to one another by donald trump in 2007 in los angeles at a trump vodka event, so, of course, well wait to hear why the prosecution is choosing not to bring forward as a witness, but potentially here, you know, from my own surmising one could suggest that they would have felt the need to bring her forwarded if they felt like the jury was not wholly convinced about the credibility of Stormy Daniels story and the truthfulness in which she conveyed the details of their relationship and why donald trump would have intended and been incentivized to silence not only her story but Karen Mcdougals as well. Karen mcdougal will not take the stand. What do you think . I think its smart because lets just focus on the legal lens, not the political lens. The legal lens, it does not matter whether these people were telling the truth or not. I mean, we know, everyone in that courtroom has been told, no one is challenging that doormans story was false. Right. It still was part of the catch and kill. David pecker. There was no challenge in that. The deal was that his story needs to be squashed because it will be damaging. And so whether you believe all three of these or none of them your point is, the prosecution risks getting bogged dawn in trying to prove or disprove the doorman, stormy and mcdougal, when whats at issue is trumps documents and the bank records silencing all three. Exactly. Also the more you go down that rabbit hole, the more the defense is going to theyre going to say it any way, the more theres more validity saying you just want to tar the defendant with this. This isnt really about this criminal case. Youre throwing spaghetti against the wall. Trump does. Exactly. Spaghetti against the wall. I was like oh, well. You protect yourself from that saying look were not trying to the reason this weve done what we did, we did this surgically and Stormy Daniels had to give details to do this. You dont have to believe her because shes shes really an exhibit. This is the story they did not want the flouk hear. It doesnt matter whether its true or not. This is exactly what Hope Hicks Has said that donald trump said to her, i am so grateful to Michael Cohen for paying the Hush Money Payments because we only have to deal with this now, not before the election. Thats it. It doesnt matter whether its true or not. Now, if the helps. Does believe its true it does give an additional motive because its easier to refute a fake story than a real story. Im dying to know whats in your head, because you were back in court, i want to put on my glasses and read all of it. What strikes me as youre sort of the journalist that has followed the money for all these, i mean, the money that trump paid was paid to keep exactly what Stormy Daniels said on direct and cross away from the thats right. Thats powerful and i think that point will probably be made on summation. Its true. Its great if its true and happened, but it doesnt matter. The money was paid to silence the information, whether it was true or not. Donald trump didnt want any of this to get out, and so i think its thats a its going to come down to those and those receipts going through a lot of i think the powerful testimony this week and i sat through this monday, the invoice after invoice put into the record to verify the 34 counts, it was really powerful. I think that thats sort of where i think were going to start to see some of the focus shift, as we move into possibly Michael Cohen next week. But today i have to say, it was it was really uncomfortable being in there. Why . I just think they brought the nuts and sluts heavy and i felt heavy i started feel uncomfortable listening to the cross. It just went on and on and it was slut shaming. It was. Nuts and sluts. It almost methodic way every question bounced back between youre crazy, you have sex on camera, youre too crazy to know the difference. They had to go down that route but how far they went down it. Felt like a choice. They kept going back and back. Stormy daniels, it was so impressive to see her when she was right going back and forth with Susan Necheles, she would ask her one of the questions was, she said, you said that you would be instrumental in putting nim jail and stormy is like, show me where i said that. Had she said it . Susan necheles had to pull up an exhibit and the exhibit didnt say that. This happened over and over. Stormy daniels was right on that. She didnt accept one thing. Sometimes when a lawyer asks you that, youll say yes, i said it without sometimes you wrongly agree to that and she didnt give an inch several times Stormy Daniels caught her and there was some Back Pedalling that went on. I think the strength i saw a strong woman on the stand today. I wondered when i saw that, so what shes testified to in direct is a Power Imbalance, right, and the sex is the sex, and again, its what trump sought to keep quiet. What i thought was amazing, we have no idea how the jury will respond, what i thought was amazing what stormy testifies to in direct on tuesday, is a Power Imbalance that Susan Necheles replayed over and over and over. Because its only Someone Powerful who thinks that they can on cross get a witness to admit to something they never said. Stormy was having none of it. Like it was it was so powerful because you do think and i was thinking about the two of them today, donald trump and Stormy Daniels, back in 2006 and what that looked like at the time, forget who they are today, Stormy Daniels was in her 20s, she was an Adult Film Star looking to get there she is. Looking to get on the Celebrity Apprentice. Thats what trump dangled. It was the casting couch. It was weinsteinesque, and he played it. And to carry the metaphor out, whats happening legally in court, Andrew Weissmann, trump is relitigating the gag order to be permitted to attack a witness in his own Criminal Trial. Is that going to work . It should not. This has been this has been upheld already in new york. It is modelled after the d. C. Gag order that has been appealed and upheld. It was slightly narrowed. The new york one, the narrowed one, i mean, especially given his history. You know, just so everyone understand, there is the judge has said, there is nothing in this gag order that prevents donald trump from attacking joe biden. There is not one word about political attacks that he can engage in. So also allowed to attack alvin bragg i believe. And the judge. Judge merchan. We can all have our views about whether it should be broader and cover them. Why would he want to attack Stormy Daniels . Why would he want permission to attack Stormy Daniels in the arena of Public Opinion but not take the stand in his own Legal Defense . Well, so this is because this is donald trump. I mean he is going to be a disaster you know ive been through this personally, he was never going to examine into the mueller investigation. Correct. Despite his saying i cant wait to meet with him. Hundreds of times. He didnt Tell The Truth in his written responses. Right. In the first impeachment. Actually the testimony said no, he didnt. That was it was not candid. With respect to the first impeachment he kept on saying, not under oath. Its not true. This is what happened. He didnt testify, and he wasnt why . Because there are sanctions for testifying falsely. And so he wants to just continue this sort of smear campaign, but not do it in a way that he can be held to account. In 2016, he feared the impact politically of Stormy Daniels talking, which is why he pays 130,000 to keep her quiet. In 20 what are we in . 2024, he fears the political damage of Stormy Daniels talking, and so hes right now before a judge getting permission to silence or smear her. Its the same story that got him indicted in the first place. And, you know, what youre hearing from the three of us who just heard her live, shes she is impressive. You know, to your example of where does it say, you know, didnt you once say you want to be instrumental in putting him in jail, she said, you show me where i said that. The other exchange she was right. By the way, she goes, when the clip pulls up, goes to Susan Necheles, where are the words instrumental and the words jail. She was like, like, no. Lets talk about the Dinner Exchange that we witnessed today. I mean that went on and on. Tell us. What happened . Susan necheles was hammering her on the idea of oh dinner with donald trump and what did you eat and she they didnt eat. And Susan Necheles went through transcript of interviews she came where Stormy Daniels had said we went out for dinner. And Stormy Daniels was like i was invoighted for dinner. And stormy is like show me where it says we ate food. There was no reference to it the whole thing, she walks in and doesnt have clothes on. She thinks theyre going to dinner. Sometimes where im from you say youre going to dinner doesnt mean you show up and eat. Its a time of day. But this was a protracted i felt like maybe three hours, i think it was 30, 40 it went on and be on. This is one i kept thinking, i wanted to pull Susan Necheles aside and say move on. Like youre just digging a hole. I kept saying, i hope shes got Something Better than this, and then the other thing that struck me, you could speak to this, her story i didnt feel its changed a little bit over time and new details have come out, but that happens with witnesses. Yeah. So thats what they dont have the same story from beginning to end. Also, they the cross was trying to say you didnt say the same thing in each interview, but she isnt editing the interviews. I saw the in touch interview comes up and says on the bottom of the interview edited. Edited and that was a perfect that only happens to you. All right. We regrettably have to sneak in a quick break. Well continue to monitor whats happening in realtime. Vaughn will help us do that on The Other Side. Still to come for us, there for emotional support or spread disinformation . Today United States senator showed up for a visit weve been describing at the courthouse. He spoke publicly about the key players in the trial. Those are off limits about the gags limits. Repayments, reimbursements, the money at the heart of the criminal case was a major focus of this afternoons testimony. What todays witnesses were able to tell the jurors about the payments to Stormy Daniels. Another very big day in the first ever Criminal Trial of an american expresident , our coverage continues right here on deadline white house after a short break. Dont go anywhere. Where. If you have Chronic Kidney Disease you can reduce the risk of Kidney Failure with farxiga. Because there are places youd like to be. Farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract, or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. A rare, lifethreatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. 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So like other people have it and its not. Pick up a bag of the new Scotts Turf Builder healthy plus lawn food today. Feed your lawn. Feed it. There is some breaking news to tell you about out of the courtroom just now, judge merchan has denied the Trump Defense teams request to amend Donald Trumps gag order to allow donald trump to publicly outside of a Court Of Law Address Stormy Daniels testimony saying this, quote, i dont want to see him use a gag order as a sword instead of a shield. Donald trump retains the constitutional right to testify in court under oath in his own defense, just as any other person would. Vaughn hillyard, his felt like, im a nonlawyer saying this, a workaround. I dont want to testify in a court where i have to Tell The Truth. I want to kick the you know what out of Stormy Daniels in front of my political supporters. Am i missing something . Right. Donald trump has the opportunity to testify and the suggestion from judge merchan here as well as the prosecution arguing against the change in the gag order was that the defendants team can speak and make the case all they want inside of the courtroom that is the purpose of the trial, and that is the purpose of being able to cross examine someone like Stormy Daniels who donald trump would like to attack and undercut right now. The fact that judge noted that the defendant, donald trump, has allies outside of the courtroom. Florida senator rick scott who made a lot of attacks on the system here including one of the prosecutors on the d. A. s team as well as the Family Member the daughter a of judge merchan who did that on behalf of donald trump. Essentially the contention donald trump can handle the witnesses as he likes from inside of the courtroom. Donald trump, if anything anybody has been following for nine years, has a penchant to attack people repeatedly. Paul ryan calling him the weakest and most incompetent speaker of the house of all time. Donald trump, usually can make the case one day that he will not attack, but the next day does. Judge merchan said to todd blanche his attorney your clients track record speaks for itself. I cant take your word for it which led merchan to not change the gag order. What was amazing, vaughn hillyard, the sex with Stormy Daniels not on trial, not even the spank or the power dynamic or any of the things that you could imagine. He calls her horse face when he attacks her on social media. The kinds of things he said about her in the past and sometimes trump rolls out a new trick, usually he does not, and paul ryan said he wouldnt vote for donald trump a couple news cycles ago, so that must have processed for him wherever in the brain thoughts process. Im looking at sue because she wrote about where worms die. But vaughn, what i want to understand from you, is the parallels that you see, having covered the political moment, especially mike and karen pences angst after the access Hollywood Tape comes out. What he did to keep stormy quiet in 2016 now what he wants to do to respond to stormys story, where do you see those impulses on trumps Part Intersecting . I think its one, the private conversations versus the public conversations. You were just having the parallel drawn between the efforts to silence Stormy Daniels story in 2016, and the effort to silence her or at least attack her today, right, with the discussion over the gag order. Donald trump has a pension for attacking his opponents. And, you know, so much of what we see in this courtroom only folks like Andrew Weissmann and Susan Craig Sitting inside of that courtroom every day, are going to be able to hear with their own ears and see with their own eyes. Unless youre a member of the public coming into Lower Manhattan this trial is not on video, not on camera, being related by reporters and others bearing witness inside there. And donald trump is largely relying on the reality of that. So for him, to be able to come out and publicly on his social media account or from a Campaign Stage like he did in 2016, go on the attack against those who have either critics or who question his moral character, Stormy Daniels, Michael Cohen, that is effectively a stage of his that he has control over. He does not have control on what is happening in the courtroom or over private conversations that are happening and what he does have control over is the microphone, his social media account and the Campaign Stage, and he clearly feels like he is being undermined and losing a political opportunity as todd blanche his own attorney just said, he should be a able to tell voters about the last day and a half and shove aside Stormy Daniels story. The two realities are difficult and one of them from inside the courtroom is going to have to rely on the american electorate at large trusting the word of the jurors and those of us that do go inside the courtroom about what transpires from within. Lockland, being on the inside or having an insiders Vantage Point on the frantic effort to keep these stories away from the voters, i wonder what you make of the equally frantic effort to burst out of a gag order, to smear one of the Story Tellers . He didnt look to smear david pecker, did he . Correct. Didnt smear david pecker, the tiktok of how these catch and kills went down in forensic detail from dino the doorman through to Karen Mcdougal and Stormy Daniels. He didnt look to smear why . Theres a few reasons that could be possible there. I think the testimony that Stormy Daniels has given the last few days is humiliating to him. He doesnt like getting shown up by women in particular. Then david pecker, as he got off the stand, still referred to donald trump as his mentor and his friend. But he wasnt looking to break the gag order and to smear pecker, i find that interesting. Hope hicks gives the smoking gun of the State Of Mind which we know from covering nine years of efforts to hold him accountable. The State Of Mind in 2018, he says thank god that didnt get out before election day. He didnt think of a gag order to attack hope hicks. Just stormy. So much that can be written about this, about the role of women and how you could support him in light of how hes treating them, the role of class where he is, you know, its the goose gander problem, hes so classless in the way were dealing with somebody where, you know, were not talking about abraham lincoln, you know, and its just or just modern day, george bush 1 or 2, theres nothing to do with sort of politics. I mean, people who just have a respect for process and the rule of law and the white house and, you know, just common decency is just so hes not even an elegant criminal. Leave the president s out, there are mobsters that adhere to their gag orders and honor the judge and witnesses. I tell the story we prosecuted the acting boss of the family, running the family, committing murders, trying if he could to, you know, get to the jury, but every day he would be in court, he would say hello. He was pleasant. He respected the judge, the process, when the jury came back, first thing we heard from him, that was too soon. Im going down. Theres just a i was just struck at the difference whereas like this is beyond mob tactics. We want to read straight from your notebook, i have to sneak in a quick break. Theres plenty going on inside the courtroom. Well be back with all of it on The Other Side. Dont go anywhere. With e trade from Morgan Stanley, were ready for whatever gets served up. 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When anyone in this house wears white, it doesnt stay white for long. White . To art class . Thats risky. Art has no rules, mom. Huh. White with coffee . A dangerous endeavor. White . To soccer . Im not gonna slide tackle. Hes gonna slide tackle. But now with tide oxi white, we can clean our white clothes without using bleach. It even works on colors. I slide tackled. I see that. Keep your whites white even without bleach with tide oxi white. We got this. We talked a lot about sex. Lets talk about paper. What is a jury going to be asked to decide this case on . 34 counts. Lets take one of them. You can multiply times 34. Is there a false Business Record that donald trump knew was a false Business Record and was this false according to the d. A. , is that it says it is for legal fees when he knew it was actually to reimburse Michael Cohen for the Hush Money Payments. And that there is one of three intents when he was doing this that makes it a felony, he intended, for instance, to do this as part of a scheme to cover up the campaign and election fraud, the david pecker catch and kill scheme. So weve spent tons of time in the beginning of the case about the catch and kill scheme and election motivation. Just to be clear you can have dual motivation. You can care a little bit about melania and a little bit about campaign fraud, youre still guilty. You dont have to prove 100 campaign. And then on the hush money payment, reimbursement. The testimony that ive seen is about 97. 3 campaign. I mean who has mentioned melania. Just hope. And thats charitable because hope the paper. If it comes out then i would be worried about it. Yeah. So thats sort of a different thing. If it comes out yeah, that would be something you are worried about, but thats not why youre doing it. It can be 5050 its fine in terms of the states case. Did he know that he was at the time reimbursing the Hush Money Payments, and it wasnt legal fees. One of the things that came out today was that donald trump has said into a courtroom in california when Stormy Daniels sued him, that he knew he had reimbursed Michael Cohen for hush money. I mean, so thats number one. Hes admitted it and they put on the proof. Two he signs the checks. Three, Allen Weisselberg and Michael Cohen knew at the time. Weisselberg in exhibit 35 takes down exactly what the scheme is. He wrote down the scheme. I mean its like were not getting them because theyre smart. He wrote down what they were doing. In order to believe this you would have to believe that Allen Weisselberg, somebody who has been in jail twice for the president , somebody who has the loyal chief Financial Officer of the trump organization, decided pain of being fired was going to unilaterally decide for no benefit to himself that he is going to not tell his boss, which hes required to do if he wants to spend more than 10,000, hes going to engage in a scheme where he pays Michael Cohen 130,000 and then another 130,000. On his own and then to pull that off to keep that from donald trump, the scheme required donald trump to sign checks over and over again. And some of it feels so much quieter an so much less dramatic than hope hicks and Stormy Daniels, but the testimony in the documents, as andrew said, has note always over it. That was so powerful about some of that evidence, especially the handwritten notes that kind of did look like somebody was just doing their taxes really quickly. I dont know what they make themselves out to be this massive corporation, but theyve got scribbled notes down but it all added up and fits into the scheme and kept these notes and you do have to like when you saw Michael Cohen over and over sending in those monthly invoices, for his legal retainer for Legal Services performed, and then you see the checks coming back from donald trump all signed, i mean, that was really powerful testimony. That is going to be what this comes down to, the believability of the falsification of the documents. The other piece that they spent a lot of time on is, trump is a witness in this trial. Trumps words and all the books about he wrote about himself and if there is a through line between i mean i dont want to call it whatever he held himself out as, a great businessman, he was the Micro Manager and a tight wad. Thats how he described himself. Earlier this week let them hang by their own words and done an incredible job of going back over books he has written and Pulling Out Pass Ams he says i looked at every check, i watched every dollar, Allen Weisselberg, i trusted he was incredibly loyal and i think, you know, were probably not going to get him on the stand but we have him in his words over the years talking about how he watched every dollar, signed every check, looked at every bit of paper and i think that was crucial for the jury to hear. Hearing that Allen Weisselberg was loyal was wonderful today in Donald Trumps words because he was carrying out the Marching Orders of the boss, right, thats the case that government is trying to make. Just to hear all these pieces coming together. Coming together. In between the big witnesses. These are the witnesses were hearing from lesser but have very the kind of things a juror could ask to see. Let me bring into the conversation my friend and Dplooeg The Rnc chairman cohost of msnbcs the weekend michael steele. Whats so apparent to me some of the witnesses that trump has not trump hasnt attacked the witnesses that are either nice to him or act like theyre nice to him or whose lawyers are paid for by the trump org, even if they deliver devastating testimony that gets to the heart of the trial. As were talking about its the publisher, its the catch and kill scheme, agreed to by david pecker and donald trump with Michael Cohen a midlevel staffer in that scheme. The people that make him mad, people that enrage him, are women who dont like him. And we had that today in Stormy Daniels. Yeah. We did. I mean, its interesting to see the people who still are held in orbit by donald trump, to some extent or degree. Either he has more on them, like a weisselberg or their loyalty is just blind and again weisselberg, or you have people who, you know, are good with the boss and ill deliver some information, but not too much. I dont want to hurt him. Trump kind of appreciates that. Then you get into Everybody Else who was in the orbit and have now swung out of it. And those are the folks particularly if theyre women that donald trump seems to focus the greatest amount of ire on. Those women who are telling his story. And theyre telling his story through their eyes. He cant shape it. He cant remake it. He cant, you know, make them explain it a certain way. And so you see this time and time again in Stormy Daniels case but also in how he dealt with women as president. Particularly female reporters. So thats the consistent through line as im reading this trial, that sort of speaks to the character of the man and how he engages with women who seemingly and in most cases do, have more power than he does. You know, michael, theres a lot thats been made of this trial and because there are so many we get into this game of comparing these charges to the ones related to the January 6th Insurrection and the ones related to the documents maralago. These are the only facts hes not running on. As you watch him to try to get out of anyone that threatens him politically seems like the most incriminating piece of evidence that he did the thing hes charged with doing. He paid money to silence Stormy Daniels ahead of 2016. Hes trying to bust out of a gag order and attack a witness because hes afraid it will hurt him in 2024. It seems that his conduct in trying to bust out of the gag order is perhaps the most incriminating piece of evidence prosecutors could put in front of he did it then, hes doing it again. Yeah. Nicolle, that is such an excellent point to make because it is such an obvious Character Flaw that you see in bullies, in weak little men who lose control of their environments and circumstances. They do want to lash out. And the rationale is if i make a big deal about this thing, if i punch hard and punch down, that will do two things. One, it will send the proper signal to the person im punching at. And two, for Everybody Else looking, they will see how strong i am and will focus that. They lose sight of the fact the very act of what theyre doing makes the case against them. Its not taking the eye off of the ball, its actually putting the eye further onto the ball and explaining some details that maybe otherwise would have been missed. And so its just the nature of the egocentric individual who wants to control every aspect of the things around them from the messaging to the money to the relationships, all of it. And you cant do it all at one time. Thats just life. You cannot control it all at one time. And so you start beating back, you start, you know, violating gag orders because your whole orientation is to strike back. And in the striking back, you get yourself in more trouble, and you expose yourself to more trouble. Exposed is how the trump team feels right now. Vaughn hillyard, there is a ferocious legal Battle Taking Place right now in court. Trumps lawyers are arguing that Stormy Daniels testimony about the sex is so salacious that it taints the jurors impression of donald trump. When the bragg team is arguing pretty sharply that the account is what he sought to silence, tell me how this argument is playing out right now. Reporter exactly. Number one, the jury has been dismissed for the day. Theyre not watching and listening to this back and forth. But this was the reupping of the motion for a mistrial here. And the judge merchan is hearing both sides make their case. Todd sblafrn making the case that blanche is making the case that some of the details by Stormy Daniels during her line of questioning from the prosecution including, for instance, the Height Differentiation of the two and feeling of imbalance of power between her and donald trump, and the spanking of donald trump on the butt with the magazine, that those were details that were prej addition to donald trump prejudicial to donald trump the defendant and have nothing to do with the record case. The prosecution is arguing in front of the judge that they have everythinging to do with this case. Number one, they have to do with the credibility of Stormy Daniels, but also they are noting then even offering, the Prosecution Offering to put under seal a list of more graphic details that Stormy Daniels would have been able to provide in her testimony, but they chose not to extract or ask her about for the purpose of not tainting the defendant in the eyes of the jury. So essentially questioning, theyre telling the judge and telling the defense team for donald trump, all right, if you really wanted us to have Stormy Daniels tell the whole story in even more graphic terms, she would have been able to do that. But we went just far enough in our line of questioning, with most questions being yes or no questions, just enough to make it clear that her story was credible and that she had details of what played out that night of the onenight stand. I think, sue craig, we know how difficult sex is in a court of law, right . Only two people who really know about the intimate act are Stormy Daniels and donald trump. But again, taking Donald Trumps word for it, that the intimate act was something he feared the public knowing about so desperately that he went about this extraordinary act of setting up a Shell Company because pecker says, quote, i will not be a bank. So Stormy Daniels, who her own lawyer says there was a, quote, crescendo of interest ahead of the election, donald trump believes these details are important enough and central enough to his ability to win the presidency that he goes through this extraordinary extraordinary there is not a Shell Company. Theres not a reimbursement this arrangement isnt set up to do anything else other than keep these acts away from the voters in 2016. Thats right. Now how crucial are they to the case . I think what were seeing right now, i think is theyre setting some tracks for an appeal, if i could just sort of i think theyre going to say this went too far and theyre trying to get it into the record now because this is going to go up on appeal if hes found guilty. But the theyre arguing pretty Fast And Furious that a lot of these details just should not have come in, that it went too far. These are the exact details that he was trying to shield the public from, that he the whole catchandkill scheme was based on was to make sure the public didnt know about. This. Didnt know these things. Thats right. I have to ask you, i hope youre not offended, would the spanking have made it into National Enquirer . It would have been as will the details with the seal would the crime have made it into the National Enquirer . It would have. Every salacious detail would have been on the front cover of the National Enquirer as we headed into the election off the backs of the access Hollywood Tape. Thats why the story had to be killed. Thats why it had to be purchased off the market. That is why the story has thats why it was entered into evidence. But is it my question is just because that is true, does it mean, is it necessary that the jury needs to hear all of this . I dont know. The state has to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense does not have to stipulate to anything. They can say you have the burden, prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. They are entitled to show this salacious story and, in fact, the more salacious, the more motive there would be to have and if youre saying that the condom, the spanking, deals would have been in the National Enquirer, thats what trump understand that was his world. In every supermarket, everywhere days before the election. And off the back of the access Hollywood Tape. Thats why it was so damaging. Trump knows thats true. Thats true. Andrew has to stick around longer. We could get a ruling on this from the judge any moment. If we do we will bust out of a break. Well tell you about it regardless. You abo iutt regardless when i said we need to screen for colon cancer . Was that after i texted the age to screen was now 45 . [both] because i said cologuard® hey there where did he come from . Yup, with me you can screen at home. Just talk to your provider. [both] well screen with cologuard and do it my way. Cologuard is a oneofakind way to screen for colon cancer thats effective and noninvasive. Its for people 45 at average risk, not high risk. False positive and negative results may occur. Ask your provider for me, cologuard. Oh no. Running low . With chewy, always keep their bowl full. Save 35 on your first autoship order. Get the food they love. Delivered again and again. [thud] woman ugh, of course it stops loading at the best part. tony hale i wasnt eavesdropping, yes i was. You need verizon. Get their crazy powerful network out here, and get six months of disney bundle on them and it is all good. vo thats right, stream on the go, with six months of disney bundle on us. All your favorite content from hulu, disney plus and espn plus is all yours, and watch it all on the new galaxy s24 , also on us. Only on verizon. Right now you can get a free footlong at subway. Just buy any footlong in the app and get one free. Just scan the qr code and Enter Promo Code flbogo it only works from The Other Side of the screen, buddy. You still got a land line in your house. Order now in the subway app. Hi again, everyone. Its 5 00 in new york. Any moment now a decision from judge juan merchan on the argument coming in Fast And Furiously from the defense team in Donald Trumps Criminal Trial, they had asked for a mistrial to be declared over Stormy Daniels testimony. An intense back and forth has been taking place between both sides after a day that saw the conclusion of dramatic testimony from the woman at the heart of all of this, Stormy Daniels. Over seven hours of testimony describing her 2006 encounter with the expresident and the hushmoney payment she was paid to keep the story of their encounter silent. Stormy daniels pushed back against contentious questioning from trumps lawyers, New York Times calling her, quote, the most intense witness theyve experienced so far. And while the witness following her may not have been the most intense, she gets to the heart of the crime at the center of the trial. The keeping of Business Record. Rebecca minocho, an employee of the trump organizations bookkeeping department, testified about Mailing Trump checks to sign while he was the president of the United States of america. This Junior Bookkeeper worked for Allen Weisselberg for eight years. She explained how she would send fedexs of blank checks for the then president to sign, and after he signed they would be mailed back to her. She describes how Keith Schiller and then john macatee were recipients of the check she sent and notably that they used their Home Addresses rather than the white house address. Another witness on the stand this afternoon to take note of, madeleine westerhaut, trumps personal assistant. She was known as his gatekeeper for a while. Her desk was right outside the oval office while donald trump was president. She filled in details about how the Trump Administration worked. She affirmed what we heard from the bookkeeper. Question from the prosecution did you ever see mr. Trump sign checks in his office . Westerhout, sometimes yes. Question, did whether trump sign each check by hand . Answer, to my knowledge, yes. As to why the back and forth of trump signing checks is so central, the repayments he made to Michael Cohen, which he signed in this manner, are at the center of the 34 Felony Charges against him. Just a few moments ago judge merchan denied Donald Trumps second request for a mistrial. Its where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Outside the courthouse for us, nbc news correspondents yasmin vossoughian. Also acting Assistant Attorney General for National Security at the Department Of Justice and msnbc legal analyst mary mccord is here. With us at the table, msnbc legal analyst and a former Criminal Division deputy chief at the Southern District of new york, Kristi Greenberg is back. And former top official at the Department Of Justice msnbc legal analyst Andrew Weissman is back with us. That was a live portion of trump talking, were never sure if hes going to threaten, so we monitor it so you dont have to. Anything newsworthy ewell tell you about it. Yasmin, well start with you. Reporter the judge denying this motion for a mistrial, nicolle. He mentioned in his lead up to delivering that decision about how he went back to his chambers tuesday afternoon, after hearing some of Stormy Daniels testimony, and reviewed the testimony because that was when we initially heard about this motion for a mistrial after returning from our lunch break. He talked about how he felt as if some of the details in there should not have been included, questions asked for instance about whether the former president had wished a condom and wished that the witness had not answered those questions. However, he went on to talk about he brought up todd blanches opening remarks. In these opening remarks, todd blanche denies the fact that a Sexual Encounter occurred between Stormy Daniels and donald trump. And so that is one of the reasons why he says it seems the peoples attorney had to talk about the details of that evening in 2006 after they met at that celebrity golf tournament. Because it was those details from Stormy Daniels and her account which directly contradicts the Opening Statement from todd blanche. It was necessary to pit the two of them against each other for the jury to decide do we believe Stormy Daniels recount of what happened on that evening back in 2006, or do we believe todd blanches account and or Donald Trumps account of what happened back on that evening in 2006 . Hence the reason why this judge now has denied this motion for a mistrial. It was expected he was going to deny this motion for a mistrial, and he again, nicolle, chided todd blanche and the Defense Attorney saying there were many instances in which you could have objected throughout her testimony in which you did not. You and i talked about this yesterday. There was a moment in which judge juan merchan on tuesday said sustained to his own objection in a moment in which he felt as if the Defense Attorneys should have provided an objection. And so here today he has denied this motion. He has denied an amendment to a gag order, as well, in which the former president and his attorneys asked for the former president to be able to respond publicly to some of the testimony from Stormy Daniels, saying you cannot attack witnesses because its not just about Stormy Daniels, but it is also about intimidating possible future witnesses that may, in fact, take the stand. So now 5 00, court is in recess until tomorrow morning. Does it change the calculation about whether trump testifies . Reporter i dont necessarily think so because i think what many people have been saying every time andrew comes out i pull him aside, andrew, what do you think . Now you have him at your table. I think the likelihood of donald trump testifying is fairly low. Although donald trump could very well take the stand and defend himself and deny the fact that he had a relationship, a Sexual Encounter, with Stormy Daniels. But the risk, right, outweighs what the positives are in his testimony. And so whether or not the former the takes the stand i think is really up to his Defense Attorneys and himself. But i dont necessarily think him weighing in publicly on Stormy Daniels testimony is going to be included in the calculation as to whether or not he takes the stand. I mean, i think thats right legally. I just wonder if weve passed the point where trump is is engaged in a legal undertaking. Look, there is a possibility that he says, you know what, im throwing caution to the wind, and he does what he did in the second e. Jean carroll case and says im a better lawyer than anyone. You would think after paying 80 million after that, he might think maybe youre not, and there would have been a better choice than yourself. He does have three lawyers who are going to put their bodies in front of that and say it is the worst possible thing. I think the reason he is i think i mean, it is if you are the state, you are licking your chops at this. Its better for them to go with a sort of you didnt prove your case. I have to say that is a hard argument because what i was just thinking about at the end of today and our discussion in the last hour is when you close, as kristi knows, when youre the state, one of the things you say is what is the narrative that is consistent with all of this evidence . And we know the narrative from the state. Can anyone sit here like yasmin, three of you, say what is the story thats consistent with the proof that we know . The hard proof and the softer proof from witnesses . There is no narrative that has been presented that explains it other than what the state has said. So you know, this if donald trump testifies, its always possible. But you know, that is going to be there will be a guilty verdict at that point. I want to read some of what yasmin is talking about. Kristi, to you. The judge says, in going back to the Opening Statements, mr. Blanche, in your Opening Statement you denied that there was ever a Sexual Encounter between Stormy Daniels and your client. Your denial puts the jury in the position of having to choose who they believe. Donald trump, who claims there was no encounter, or stormy, who claims that there was. Though the people dont have to prove the Sexual Encounter, they do have to show her credibility which immediately came under attack in your Opening Statements. The more specificity she can provide the more the jury can weigh whether they believe her account of the encounter. Not only is he denying the mistrial, not giving trump lee its way to attack her, hes saying that the specificity, the small details are central to any witness credibility. They really were here, and they also really explained why it is that the hushmoney payment, why donald trump would have been motivated to make that hushmoney payment in the first place or have Michael Cohen make it, right . This was so damning and the details are so embarrassing and lurid. You know, the details about melania and the that he said, you know, we dont sleep in the same bedroom. The details about you remind me of my daughter, and hes, you know, trying to get her a spot on a Reality Tv Show to sleep with her. They are just cringeworthy. I think that was the reason that you would be motivated to make sure they didnt get out before the election. That said, with respect to this mistrial motion, there were some details i do think the state should not have elicited. There were certain details that did seem to suggest that this was getting close to the line of a Sexual Assault. The question about the height differential, not clear why that was relevant. The questions about him blocking the way and being bigger than her, sort of leaving a suggestion there that she didnt say it, that she wouldnt have been able to leave easily. There was a question about did you say no, and she said, you know, at no point did i say no. Said why, and on direct her response was, well, i didnt say anything. Which again left it out there, did she feel she couldnt . So consent is not an issue here. Sexual assault is not part of this case at all. And that is more rental additional and inflammatory prejudicial and inflammatory than the charges hes charged with. What i was looking for is is this going to get cleaned up on redirect by the state because some of this, i think, could be an issue on appeal later. And i actually think it got cleaned up on cross by Donald Trumps own lawyer. At one point she asks the question im not going to get in precisely right you know, what about his actions made you feel like you couldnt say no, something to that effect. And she responded, it wasnt his actions, it was my insecurities that led me to go through with it. And you know, that was just such a moment of and then she elaborated and said he never physically threatened me, never verbally talented me, didnt have a weapon, didnt drug me. She goes through this litany of, you know, of the circumstances of why she did what she did. It was very plain at that point she was not accusing him of any kind of assault, and she really was talking about being in a situation that was extremely uncomfortable for her. And i thought it humanized her. I thought it was really important testimony for the it was a powerful moment for her. And most importantly to the judges point, it was credible. It seemed very credible. Like somebody in that situation coming out of a bathroom and seeing somebody in their boxers. Like she was shocked and didnt really know how to behave. And so i really thought that the Mistrial Arguments that this is there has been confusion about this prejudice, i think they fell flat based on trumps defense, his arguments today. Mary mccord, youre usually here for deeply disturbing stories about National Security or extremism. Today youre here about Donald Trumps election interference hushmoney payments to an adult film actress. I wonder what you make of all these Worlds Intersecting and what we know about donald trump that maybe we didnt know before. That someone who ran in 2016, as someone who believed he could shoot someone on 5th avenue and his base wouldnt care, i think we saw that bare out as closer to truths than fiction. Donald trump that that these stories, these details told by Stormy Daniels in the court over tuesday afternoon and thursday morning would prevent him from winning the election in 2016. Thats right, and i think thats also the reason why his attorneys today asked for the gag order to be modified because he wants to be able to respond to this. He wants to be able to push back, but he doesnt maybe because of his lawyers advice is thinking if i cant do that in court, i need to do it outside of course. I need to stick up for myself, i need to deny this, i need to say that shes a liar, i need criticize her. Because again, hes playing to this bigger audience. He is a candidate right now. And that would be such an end run around the gag order. I mean, if you cant if you need to respond to what a witness testifies to in court, you need to respond to that in court. Now it could be different if Stormy Daniels ends up posting on social media about this or otherwise speaking out in ways that the judge would then say, okay, now, stormy, youre using this as a sword and its not fair for mr. Trump not to be able to respond to political attacks outside the courtroom. But right now in him denying the gag order, i think he was recognizing first, as he said, you know, this gag order is necessary to preserve the integrity of the trial and to to make sure other witnesses wont fear that you will attack them outside of the courtroom and do what you would the only way youre allowed to do that is if you take the stand. And as others have talked about, highly unlikely hell take the stand, although i think hell want to. To your question, i think this just shows you in many ways who he is, right . He cant stand not to win. He cant stand not to get the last word. And thats why its so impossible for him to keep his mouth shut when he walks outside the courtroom. I mean, i think its also, yasmin, a fascinating microcosm of trumps political playbook. I mean, what trump did in 16 was take the access Hollywood Tape, turned to steve bannon after going upstairs and saying whatever he said to melania trump, and then by the time the debate with Hillary Clinton came around, at least in his head, throwing more mud than was thrown at him by his own words being revealed to the public. This is a courtroom. This is a place where a judge who really has no dog in the fight except maintaining the integrity of the Legal Process makes all the decisions, not donald trump. Steve bannon is probably of no use to him inside those four walls. Im sure hes of great use to him as soon as he leaves. It does illustrate why trump has fought so desperately, why he has clawed and scraped and scrapped and tried to manipulate everything hes tried to manipulate over the last nine years to avoid legal accountability, to avoid a legal consequence, to desperately replace sessions with someone more loyal, to desperately fire robert mueller, to rig and man ikely assault joe biden as being responsible for any and all of these investigations into his own conduct. Reporter to control the outcome. This is the one instance in which he cannot control this outcome. Andrew talked about how donald trump took the stand in the e. Jean carroll defamation case. Remember how long he office that stand . It was about 90 seconds. He office that stand for about 90 seconds. We all rushed to cameras, donald trump is taking the stand, nbc went to specials. By the time we got up, he was off. That was his Moment In The Sun to feel as if he was defending himself against e. Jean carroll and the defamation case, and it all took but 90 seconds. Dont forget, whatever happens in this trial, nicolle, as you just talked about, the way in which donald trump tries to defend himself and if he likely does not take this stand in the weeks and the days after this, as hes continuing to run for president as a republican Presumptive Republican nominee for president , he will take the stand on every stage in this country. He will take the stage on social media. He will make sure his surrogates are taking The Stand Defending His Quote Unquote Legacy and refuting the accounts made by Stormy Daniels and eventually Michael Cohen, as well. One thing i want to mention, nicolle, when it came to the crossexamination today of Stormy Daniels that was somewhat disturbing to me was the way in which Susan Necklace framed Stormy Daniels as an Adult Film Star who should have expected to be in a situation like the one that she found herself in, walking out of a bathroom, seeing donald trump in his boxers and his tshirt on the bed. That shes done, acted in over 150 adult films, Directed Over 150 adult films, as well, she should have expected it. And i know were not litigating possible Sexual Assault and thats been made clear, hence one of the reasons they brought up the idea of a mistrial because they say thats prejudicial, some of the statements made by Stormy Daniels. But its disturbing to me as a woman thinking about the way that was framed and how far we felt like we have come. And yet here we are kind of saying, well, you had a short skirt on, did you not deserve it . Did you drink to much . Did you not deserve it . Its something as we think about this testimony today to think about and look at as to how they framed Stormy Daniels and how in a way, speaking to what you were talking about, humanized her even more so during that cross. Well, i have been fascinated in the contrast between how hope hicks, who delivered testimony that was lights out incriminating about Donald Trumps State Of Mind about the Stormy Daniels story staying silent until 2018. Donald trumps treatment of her and the Press Coverage of her was largely sympathetic. She was so upset by that testimony. She cried. And she is an elegant former ralph lauren model. Thats how she was treated. She was crossed very delicately. There is a class issue, there is a gender issue, and there is a threat to donald trump issue. And we should just call it out for what it is. Susan necklace sought to shame Stormy Daniels not just to her face but in front of the jurors, to say this porn star slut isnt telling the truth. To Susan Necklace, it isnt really about the sex, right, its about whether or not shes telling the truth. If shes telling the truth, then donald trump absolutely paid 130,000 and probably would have paid a hell of a lot more to keep her quiet ahead of the 2016 election. Reporter yeah. Poke holes. Thats all they wanted to do in that crossexamination, poke holes in Stormy Daniels story, poke holes in their credibility. You think that was tough to listen to, just wait until we see Michael Cohen on the stand. Thats been their approach this entire time. The question is if its actually working, and i would estimate considering the crossexamination that weve seen so far, she was humanized more during that cross than she was during the direct which i dont think is necessarily usually the case in hay crossexamination in these types of trials. And they tried to chip away at Stormy Daniels credibility so even one juror would say i dont necessarily believe her, you consider her past, you think of where she came from, what her motivation was. She was money hungry. She was after it. She had an axe to grind with donald trump. And yet when she was put in that victim seat and seemed to be more of a whistleblower, a woman just really defending herself about a man who used to be the most powerful man in the free world, right, that could really not be good for the defense. Yeah. Again, well see. None of us have any clue how the defense is experiencing any of this. No ones going anywhere. Theres so much more to get to with our panel. As Stormy Daniels wrapped up her testimony with some of the lesser known Witnesses Today who helped bolster the prosecutions case, their narrative, as andrew reminds us. Deadline white house continues after a quick break. Continues after a quick break. [ Serene Music Playing ] welcome to the wayborhood. The wayfair vibe at our place is western. My thing, darling . Shine. Gardening. Some of us go for the dramatic. How didnt i know wayfair had vanities in tile . [ gasps ] this. Wow do you have any ottomans without legs. Sure. Youll flip for the poof cart. In the wayborhood, theres a place for all of us. Wayfair. Every style. Every home. Right now you can get a free footlong at subway. Just buy any footlong in the app and get one free. Just scan the qr code and Enter Promo Code flbogo it only works from The Other Side of the screen, buddy. You still got a land line in your house. Order now in the subway app. Her uncles unhappy. You still got a land line in your house. Im sensing an underlying issue. Its tmobile. It started when we tried to get him under a new plan. But they they unexpectedly unraveled their price lock guarantee. Which has made him, a bit. Unruly. You called yourself the uncarrier. You sing about price lock on those commercials. the price lock, the price lock. so, if you could change the price, change the name its not a lock, i know a lock. So how can we undo the damage . We could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. Their connection is unreal. And we could all unexperience this whole session. Okay, thats uncalled for. In february of 2017, one month into his presidency and visiting President Trump in the oval office for the first time, and its truly awe inspiring. Hes showing me all around and pointing to different paintings and says to me something to the effect of, dont worry, michael, your january and february reimbursement checks are coming. They were fedexd from new york, and it takes a while for that to get through the white house system. As he promised, i received the first check for the reimbursement of 70,000 not long thereafter. Were all back. That Reimbursement Scheme is stipulated in a lawsuit in california, andrew reminded us. It feels beyond established that the money i think do we have that . Rudy talked about on it as hannity. How much of this is reminding a jury of how much has already asserted and stipulated and narrowing the issues up for debate . There was one piece of evidence thats coming already, a conflict of Interest Form that donald trump signed in may of 2018 that says that Michael Cohen had expenses in 2016 and those expenses ranged from i think it was 100,000 to 250,000, which is consistent with these payments, the payments to Stormy Daniels, and that donald trump reimbursed Michael Cohen for those expenses. So again, as youre Going Forward and looking at these checks that say theyre for a retainer for 2017 expenses, wheres what you already said that you reimbursed him for . Where are those checks . Where is that money . It doesnt exist because these are those checks. So i thought they have made that point both with the documents and then with Witness Testimony talking about the fact that conversations were had about reimbursement. I think thats going to be very hard for them to get away from. And yet thats how they opened. They opened on the fact that these were not reimbursements, that these were payments for actual Legal Services in 2017. Its hard to understand what the Defense Strategy is because as you said the documents and the testimony has been so tight on that point. We were talking in the break about the Conversation Yasmin and i were having about the strategy of eliciting shame from a witness for her chose not profession chosen profession, for putting in Stormy Daniels words, putting herself in the position she found she was in in 06 when she was alone with donald trump in a hotel room. Do those Battering Cross Examinations work . I dont think so, particularly not with a Manhattan Jury where you have five women on the jury. It felt at times not only was the questioning really harsh and combative and aggressive, but the tone was mocking. It did, as you said earlier, it there was a class issue there it seemed. I mean, you could see her arguing to this jury shes a porn star, can you really believe that shes in a hotel room with this man and he comes out in his boxers and shes clutching her pearls . Like you know, there was that sort of mocking tone to everything she was saying. And i dont think this i dont think any Manhattan Jury, at least are going to be plenty of people on the jury that will find that offenoffensive. Theyre hoping for the one i guess that wont. Thats a real fwam bell. I thought gamble. I thought if anything the defense came off as very unlikable, very combative. And Stormy Daniels kept her cool today. I actually thought she performed better on crossexamination than she did on direct examination. She answered the questions, she was careful, she was listening, she was thoughtful. So i dont think it will work. But i think Susan Necklace was brought in to do this. She has done these kinds of Cross Examinations in the past in other cases of women in the sex business which, again, thats a little different than this. You know, here Stormy Daniels is very clear she was a porn star, not a sex worker. Susan necklace has done this before, it hasnt worked in other cases recent cases. And i dont think its going to be successful here. Mary mccord, the verbal sort of whatever the transcript, i wasnt it read like a verbal assault. It was did you say you bought a ranch, i didnt say i bought it, i said i paid for it, i paid rent for it. Susan necklace went after her credibility in saying she had gone to his room for dinner. She obviously thought they were going to leave the room. She told donald trump to, quote, get dressed. Was it too much, or is it is it just burn it all down if youre a Defense Lawyer on cross . This is where its hard for i think us to assess when were looking at the Black And White transcript because these theres a cadence to crossexamination, theres how did the witness actually deliver responses, were there hesitations or pauses, was there immediate responses . You know, when im in the courtroom, im looking to see how is the jury reacting. When i was sitting at the prosecutors table and the Defense Counsel was cross examining one of my witnesses. We dont get any of that from the cold record. I think its a little hard to tell whether even to kristys point whether the jury was offput or not. We dont see the Body Language and nuances, its hard to glean from the cold record. I do think Susan Necklace perhaps, at least based on a cold record, scored some paints in a different area. I agree with kristy that the belittling of her and basically saying, you know, youre a porn star so why should you be believed, i think that that probably didnt go over that well with the jury. But i found myself looking at the transcript a little bit confused about stormys motivation. I thought Susan Necklace hit some important points on this. Was it to make money because at times she said yes, she wanted to get paid, she wanted to sell her story, when her agent first came to her about selling the story she went along with that. Motivated at least in part by money. Yet she also said she didnt want the story to come out because she wanted for her own safety especially after the encounter in the parking lot in 2011 i believe it was, she felt threatened, she felt that her safety was at issue. So she was at issue, as well as the safety of her family and her young daughter. So she didnt want the story to come out. And i think thats something were going to see the defense really hammer when we get to closings is this idea of which was it, you cant want to make money but also not want the story to come out want to make money on the story and also not want the story to come out. Now she portrayed it, Stormy Daniels, as, you know, it was a better option for me to make money and have the story get squashed. But i think susan, you know, did it was important thats an area where it was important for the crossexamination to kind of really hit at that, if she perceived that there was some inconsistencies. If i were doing the crossexamination, i would have laid up on some of the things that kristy rightfully criticized her for. And theres one other point i would make which is that weve spent a lot of time rightfully today talking about sort of the stacking up of credibility between Stormy Daniels and donald trump who probably wont testify as to whether the sex act did happen. For purpose and i understand why the prosecution felt it needed to prove it up and make her look credible on the fact that they had sex. For purposes of the false Business Records, it would not even have to be a true story. I mean, if he if she was making it up and he conspired with Michael Cohen to pay her off, to not go public with the story even if made up, you cant then put on your tax records or put on your Business Records that this is for legal expenses, right. They would still be fraudulent. Now, you know, right now obviously thats not the prosecutions strategy, but ultimately as people keep saying this is about fraudulent Business Records. And whether they did or didnt have sex is not absolutely critical to whether those not even critical at all, its not proof of whether they were false or not. It goes to the motivation, like you were talking about in the last segment. Why would it pay 130,000 . If he thought that he could deny this credibly because it wasnt true, he probably wouldnt have paid 130,000. Whats amazing to me, mary, is that what he wanted to keep secret, what we know about what he was worried about politically is never a dramatic flipflop on his position on a womans right to choose. He once described himself as so prochoice, hes now for criminalizing doctors who perform abortions its just an interesting window into what he thought would be politically deadly. He thought, trump thought after Access Hollywood came out that the Stormy Daniels story would be a political nail in the coffin for him. And listening to her tell the story in all of its lurid details as a political person, im like, ah, aha, his political instincts are those of someone who can become president somehow. But youre right in terms of the crime thats under the microscope legally, the truth or the voracity of the story he sought to suppress is central. Thank you so much for being part of our coverage today. Grateful to both of you. We all stick around. Theres much more from day 14 of the firstever Criminal Trial of an american expresident. Quick break for us. Well be right back. Welbel ri. Care of fixing your windshield. E but did you know we can take care of your Insurance Claim . 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You need to hire. I need indeed. Indeed you do. Indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. Visit indeed. Com hire joining our coverage, cofounder and executive director at protect democracy ian bassin is back with us. Joining us at the table, host of the fast politics podcast and special correspondent for vanity fair our friend molly jung fast is back with us. Kristy and mary are still here. Donald trump wanted to bust out of a gag order to smear a witness in the trial. And most sort of good betting money is on the fact that he probably wont testify in his own defense. It feels extra judicial, right . He wants to muddy her up, he wants to speak directly to his admirers of his strongman persona. But it also suggests that he feels vulnerable, feels exposed. Talk about that through the lens of the worlds strongmen, why this would bother him so much. Well, i think one thing is he likes to be in control. And this was something that was referenced in the earlier segment. Obviously when youre a defendant in a courtroom thats the one thing you are not. You have an enormous amount of due process protections, but you are not in control of those surroundings. I think he rightly fears to some extent that that exposes him as weak. And the New York Times reported not only that but he was dozing off during the trial. Hes very concerned about his brand. Long before he was a politician, he was all associated with the word trump and its brand. I think hes concerned that this is a setting in which hes not really able to bolster his brand. I think from a political instincts matter hes attuned to the risks that that poses to him. I wonder what you think, to ian, the way that judge merchan is trying to in the most extraordinary political moment maintain the integrity of the rule of law inside the four walls of his courthouse. Trump has proven again and again that he borrows a lot of his playbook from his old mentor roy cone, dont argue the facts, dont argue the law, bully the system. And what judge merchan is trying to do is protect the system because obviously trump has trump understands that when he goes after witnesses or he goes after Court Personnel or simply names them to his followers, they face a barrage of threats, quite menacing, violent threats. This is by design. Its designed to intimidate. Merchan knows hes dealing with someone who borrows a bit out of a mafia playbook. There was something that happened early in the trial that i kind of laughed off a little bit, but it actually came up again today. So during the first round of testimony when david pecker of testifying, he talked about a scene when he was walking along the coloinated, the famous colonade and trump asked how is karen, in reference to Karen Mcdougal, one of the women alleged that he had slept with and paid off, had some sort of affair with and paid off. And pecker said, he said, oh, karens fine. Karens not going to be a problem here. And immediately i thought of the scene in the godfather when sonny asks about the driver who had been with his father, don corleone when he was shot, paulie, and the hit man said, oh, paulie . Wont be hearing from him no more. Theres a striking comparison. But i kind of sort of brushed it off. Then today one of the witnesses was reading from one of trumps books and read a section of it in which the had written in the book that when someone screws you, screw them back in spades. And said getting even is not always a personal thing, its just part of doing business. Of course thats exactly what michael corleone said to sonny. Its not personal, its business. That was something that wasnt started in the godfather, it came from an accountant in the mob in the 1930s who used to say that. The comparisons here are getting a little bit too close for comfort in the way that the trump world operates. I think were going to continue to see those parallels play out, and i think thats what judge merchan is worried about frankly. Andrew, to ians point, this is what triggers trump. I mean, its not that hope and pecker didnt destroy him with their testimony, they did in terms of further establishing that both the motive and the evidence of his criminality. They were in his nice to him. They walked after pecker and was nice to me. Stormy has no eyewitness account of him falsifying or writing any checks at all, but she in his view was mean to him. Its all about, you know, to ians point, who is as comey said after he met him in new york at trump tower, youre in the family or youre outside of it. So its one of the things thats wrong to do is to try and pose a rational grid on totally whats going on because the rational grid is that you have to destroy david pecker if youre on the crossexamination side of this. Because he has direct evidence about something that is key and central to the scheme. Hope hicks, i thought that was beyond a body blow. It was so strong. And from a witness you would have such a hard time crossing, but you needed to. You had to figure out a strategy for how you were going argue to the jury that you cannot trust that piece of evidence. This was one where it doesnt really matter. Correct. Doesnt matter if the sex happened or not, doesnt matter if she likes him or not, doesnt matter none of it matters. It it could have been a shorter, cleaner thing, but thats because this is operating both within a psyche that is disturbed to say the least, and it is operating in a political plane and not at a criminal plane. Just to ians point about the mob, there was an interesting tidbits and these are the things that jurors like Stormy Daniels today said when this was going on in Donald Trumps suite, the bodyguard outside was mr. Schilling, keith schilling. And he was there, and hes a big guy. And it would have been hard to leave. But i could have left, but he was there, and he knew that i had arrived. He knew when i left. He was there. He is like a unit with him. Hes always there. Whenever i was there, he was there. Next witness so when were sending checks which, by the way, were fedexd which Michael Cohen happens to know, little another tidbit, he happens to know that there are twomonth payments and fedexd, exactly whats happening, again, this happens to be right, and who did the checks get sent to . Do they get sent to the white house . No. They get sent to mr. Schilling, to his personal address. His home. And you just got the sense of, you know, this is his body man. It is clear that it is not good for trump legally when his political and personal quirks, if you will, drive what happens in the courtroom. Its also clear that that is factoring into whats happening in the courtroom. This is a thing you and i have actually talked a lot about. Candidate trump versus defendant trump. And you see it today with his crossexamination. What i think is really important is what you were talking about with Stormy Daniels before. And youve been talking about this a bunch, that there is a misogyny here that should not be understated. That her like its almost as if trump and the lawyers who he is directing to a certain extent and weve seen that, are mad at her for trying to kind of take back her power. Ive written about this a lot. This is a person who has passed numerous antiwoman legislation. He is the person who put the three justices on the court with the because they were going to overturn roe. And here he is, you know, he is you can tell theres a sense which shes not allowed to have her story. Shes not allowed to tell her story. Correct. I think its its the first i think theres a disparity, too, between whether or not you read her on the page and the judgments that you have if youve heard her or seen her. And you know, on the page, she came across as very sympathetic. She told her story. Her mother disappeared, her telling at 17, she studied vet anywhere medicine. She started modeling nude to make money and then started dancing and thought it will be tap or ballet dancing, not nude dancing. But all of the slurs, youre a sex worker, im not, and explaining what it was. They were all i dont know if microaggressions were the right word, aggressive attacks on her character. Youre at a point legally, character isnt at issue. I think what you brought up before about hope hicks, that testimony was ten times for damaging. But hope hicks is fancy and grew up in greenwich and was a model. There is a class components here which we never talk about. But you really do see this is a woman who had to make money, who had to support her daughter. And i think that is also in play. And again, whatever anyone thinks of Stormy Daniels, trump pursued Stormy Daniels, trump told Stormy Daniels that he, quote, reminded him of his Daughter Ivanka who was also beautiful. Even Michael Cohen trump brought them into all of our lives. How do you make that point . I mean, this is the some of the tragedy of america in terms of this is pretty much it. Were talking about a former president of the United States and a leading candidate, and you know, look, i am old enough to regardless of whether it was a democrat or republican revere the presidency and the person who holds that office. And it is impossible to have that view with this person. And i blame aaron sorkin for all of it. Andrew, thank you. Youre here double duty. I know we dont ever make clear our intentions with your time. Thank you very much for staying. When we had in back, the disgraced expresident is under a gag order. What about his supporters and enablers who are showing up at the courthouse . Today the first sitting member of congress of there, was more than willing to spread negative information, disinformation, about the case. Well tell you about it next. Tet its a beautiful. Day to fly. Wooooo woman ugh, of course it stops loading at the best part. tony hale you need verizon. 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Shop online or book an exam at americasbest. Com. tony hawk skating for over 45 years has taken a toll on my body. I take qunol turmeric because it helps with healthy joints and inflammation support. Why qunol . It has superior absorption compared to regular turmeric. Qunol. The brand i trust. We dont know what he did for this to be the case, but today the senator, rick scotts turn to carry the expresident s dirty laundry around in front of the cameras. And what he said was particularly disturbing. He went after the very people people like judge Juan Merchans daughter, who trump is not allowed to legally attack because of his gag order. Joining us now, cornell belcher. Cornell, your thoughts . You know, its a new low. We just keep hitting new lows. And it really is quite frankly disturbing that we have these republican after republican rolling out, i guess, auditioning to be his vp. And the audition isnt whether or not they are good, qualified public servants, that theyre going to do the work of the people and ready to step in. But the job seems to be about whether or not you can carry Donald Trumps baggage and defend him, right . And its not at all about the American People. You know, i see a lot of disturbing things in politics, nicolle, but this this is really, really disturbing to see a United States in our union, you know, standing in front of cameras, debasing way. I am taken aback in a time where im taken aback almost weekly. But this has nothing to do with the American People and certainly nothing to do with the people of florida but everything to do with donald trump and all these politicians seem to now be in service of donald trump, not the people, the constituents, who put them in office. Cornell, aaron sorkin version of this would be that hes up there saying, you know, nobody puts ted cruz and marco rubio in a corner. We learned from this trial that you used your unholy relationship with david pecker to smear them in the stories you knew were false. The real world, as you said, its darker, its sicker. And i think tim scott is evidence of the rot. Were too timid to call it out. Theyre all, for undermining and destroying the rule of law in america. Yeah. And look, to a certain extent, are they giving trump supporters, right, an avenue for the cognitive dissonance . It is trumps voters are supposed to be law and order people. If they paint this and muddy the waters up and making this all about politics and they give them room to support someone that the back of their mind they, kind of, know has done a lot of wrong doings, again, its a new low. And i thought some of our senators were better than that, and theyre not. Ian bassen . You know, i read something the other day that i really thought was insightful about the trial were witnessing. And benjamin has been running a diary, and he said, you know, in some ways we all expected and kind of wanted a highminded trial about the office of the presidency. We might have wanted to see a trial of whether or not donald trump is guilty of trying to subvert the election or of abusing the powers of the presidency by absconding classified documents, a question of abuse of power at the highest office, a question at the heart of our constitutional order. But in fact what were getting, in a way, is not any of that. But were getting the trial the trump era deserves, which is a trial about Hush Money Payments to hide extramarital sex with a porn star. Were getting a trial about sleazy tabloid catch and kill stories. Were getting a trial about essentially the swamp, how the swamp operates, and just how comfortable donald trump is treading within, sort of, the deep bogs of the swamp. And in some ways, compared to all the trials we could have, isnt that the most fitting trial that we could get for this era . Because it reflects, as cornell was saying, the debasement of this era under trump as president and expresident. So smart. Thats such a smart point. Cornell, ian, christy, and molly, thank you so much for spending time with us. Im sorry we ran out of time. Another break for us. Well be right back. Of time another break for us well be right back. And unforgettable scenery with viking. Unpack once, and get closer to iconic landmarks, local life, and cultural treasures. Because when you experience europe on a viking longship, youll spend less time getting there and more time being there. Viking. Exploring the world in comfort. Tech does your windshield have a crack . Trust safelite. This customer had auto glass damage, but he was busy working from home. So he scheduled with safelite in just a few clicks. We came to his house. Then we got to work. We replaced his windshield. And installed new wipers to protect his new glass. Customer looks great. Thank you. Tech my pleasure. Vo we come to you for free. Schedule now for Free Mobile Service at safelite. Com. Safelite repair, safelite replace. With powerful, easytouse tools, power e trade makes complex trading easier. React to fastmoving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you wont miss an opportunity. E trade from Morgan Stanley imagine a future where plastic is not wasted. But instead remade over and over. Into the things that keep our food fresher, our families safer, and our planet cleaner. To help us get there, americas plastic makers are investing billions of dollars to create Innovative Products and new recycling technologies for sustainable change. Because when you push for smarter solutions, big things can happen. Her uncles unhappy. Because when you push for smarter solutions, im sensing an underlying issue. Its tmobile. It started when we tried to get him under a new plan. But they they unexpectedly unraveled their price lock guarantee. Which has made him, a bit. Unruly. You called yourself the uncarrier. You sing about price lock on those commercials. the price lock, the price lock. so, if you could change the price, change the name its not a lock, i know a lock. So how can we undo the damage . We could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. Their connection is unreal. And we could all unexperience this whole session. Okay, thats uncalled for. These are difficult stories. Were so grateful to you for letting us into your homes to talk about them. Were really grateful. The beat with ari melber starts right now. Hi, ari. Hi nicolle. Thanks so much. Were beginning with