Transcripts For MSNBCW Ana 20240703

Good monday morning. It is 10 00 eastern. Im Ana Cabrera Reporting from new york. We begin with Donald Trumps Hush Money Trial resuming moments ago in a manhattan courtroom. Week three of this trial saw dramatic and at times emotional testimony. Today, week four is kicking off with the judge Finding Trump in contempt once again and issuing a new warning of jail time. While a new witness, the Longtime Trump Controller has taken the stand. Nbcs Vaughn Hillyard is outside the courthouse. With us our legal panel, carol lam, former u. S. Attorney and former judge, adam pollock, The New Yorker new york assistant attorney general. Vaughn, we have a new witness on the stand and action related to the gag order already this morning. Walk us through it. Reporter Jeffrey Mcconney just took the stand. He was the former controller of the Trump Organization. He worked at the trump org for 35 years before leaving his post this last year. Folks may recall that he testified for several days in the Civil Fraud Trial in 2023 just two blocks down the road from here and is part of the decision from judge engoron, that he was found liable for insurance fraud. He was barred from ever serving in leadership for a corporate entity again. He and trump have a longstanding relationship. Where does he fit into the fold as part of this trial . He was the individual who overseas the Accounting Department of the Trump Organization. Michael cohen in February Of 2017 sent his first invoice to be reimbursed upon donald trump taking the white house to Jeffrey Mcconney who oversaw and made sure that check got back from donald trump to Michael Cohen for that reimbursement of the Stormy Daniels payment so he could fill in some of the gaps as the prosecution looks to move on to the actual reimbursement and the actual execution of the funds from donald trump to Michael Cohen as part of this fourth week of testimony here in lower manhattan. As for the gag order decision, judge merchan found donald trump to have violated four of the alleged gag order violations brought forward last week by the prosecution, this one specifically with Donald Trumps Statement Last week that 95 of the jurors were democrats which, number one, is not true, and the judge making the determination that he has fined an additional 1,000, but also making it very clear again that he must by order of this court, in order to ensure that this trial is able to go forward in a fair and impartial way and one that also protects this jury of 18, that donald trump could still potentially face jail time. Hes not at the point of directly telling donald trump that he will take such action, but he warned him he would have no choice if donald trump continues to violate the gag order thats been placed on him since the beginning of the trial. Vaughn, stand by and keep us posted. I want to note on the Gag Order Ruling the judge writing, the defendant not only called into question the integrity and legitimacy of the proceedings and raised the fear for the jurors and their loved ones, undoubtedly threatened to interfere with the direct administration of justice. That going along with this new fine hes going to have to pay. Whats your reaction to how the judge handled this Gag Order Ruling, carol . Its very important to remember to how sensitive the judge is to attacks on the jury in particular. Everybody else in the courtroom has someone representing them. Donald trump has his lawyers. The state has their prosecutors. But the jurors are just ordinary citizens who give up part of their daily lives to do their public service, zit on this jury and theres no one protecting them but the judge. You see it over and over again, that he will really take action if he feels donald trump is saying anything thats heightening the danger to the jurors. The judge acknowledging that it appears the 1,000 fines are not serving as a deterrent. Thats another quote from the judge. Adam, the judge not mincing words about what could happen next, saying the last thing i want to do is put you in jail. You are a former president of the United States and possibly the next president as well, but at the end of the day i have a job to do. Do you really think hes considering jail time . I think he has to be. The limit, the maximum fine for Contempt Of Court is 1,000. Its effectively pocket change for donald trump. I think this judge is recognizing that cash fines, that money fines are not an effective deterrent here. He keeps violating the order, the gag order, so the judge has to be thinking what could work. I think this judge, despite the logistical concerns, the difficult, practically speaking, of putting Somebody Subject to secret Service Protection in jail, i think this judge has to be thinking and has told the defendant im now thinking about putting you in jail if you continue to violate this order. Do you think ankush it is working . Were looking at trump right before he went into court. He was thoughts on Michael Cohen. He specifically said, i cant answer that question. I have a gag order. Yes. I share everyones unhappiness with trumps continued attacks on the jury and the jury pool. However, we have seen a change, a shift in trumps rhetoric over the last week or two in terms of the witnesses and attacking Michael Cohen and other folks. That has tamped down a little bit. However, the rhetoric in every other area, attacking the judge, attacking the integrity of the proceedings, thats gotten worse. Hes put that into a frame of Political Campaign speech, talking about this at fundraisers and rallies. I think the judge, to his credit, wanted to send a message today, too, which that stuff is not off limits. He recognizes those sorts of comments endanger not just potentially the jurors, i agree with carol on that. Also, i think its a preemptive effort to discredit a conviction and tell his supporters to not take the proceedings seriously, which is a problem for the integrity of our proceedings and the respect people have for Legal Proceedings in this country. Vaughn, lets talk more about whats happening inside the courtroom right now with Jeff Mcconney on the stand. What kinds of questions is he getting so far . Reporter a lot of technical questions here at this point, in what his official capacity in the Trump Organization was and the extent to which he oversaw the ledger for Donald Trumps personal expenses. Again, he was working as the controller for the Trump Organization. Yet, the Reimbursement Checks dispensed by donald trump to Michael Cohen, while in the white house in 2017, came from the trust which were personal funds from donald trump. He just testified that, yes, he oversaw the ledger for that specific Trust Account here, and this gets at the heart of the fact that Allen Weisselberg who is currently serving time in rikers jail in new york for perjury related to the Civil Fraud Trial. Weisselberg who was working as the cfo for the Trump Organization and has never turned on donald trump with his testimony as part of a litany of other cases. Allen weisselberg saw Jeffrey Mcconney. Mcconney reported to weisselberg. Wiesel person was there when donald trump specifically said if you pay off Stormy Daniels, somebody whose testimony could have been key here. Theyll rely on Jeffrey Mcconney who is the one that made the determination on the checks it should be noted i should say on the ledger as retainer for Legal Expenses. He potentially over the course of these next hours could begin to build for the prosecution a more tactical understanding and description of exactly how the Reimbursement Scheme and how the falsification of Business Records was ultimately executed by him and others through Donald Trumps orders. Carol, it sounds like the prosecution right now is sort of laying the groundwork for mcconneys role in the organization and his relationship with trump. There was some color written that trump seemed to laugh in his seat when mcconney recounted a story about trump pretending to fire him. First thinking about the apprentice. Trump is obviously engaged with this testimony. What do you make of them calling mcconney now . Mcconney is an incredibly important witness for the prosecution. Remember that the allegations in the indictment in part rest on the fact that these payments that ultimately made their way to Stormy Daniels were written off from the corporation or put in the ledgers of the corporation as being Legal Expenses. Thats what kicks off the alleged violations of the Election Laws and perhaps the tax laws. So the fact that Jeff Mcconney directed these to be listed as Legal Expenses has to be shown to the jury, and then mcconney has to be asked why did you do that . Who told you to do that or how did you decide to do that . Remember that mcconney has testified before the grand jury under oath. The d. A. Already knows what hes going to say. There should be no surprises here for the prosecution. Thats important. We havent seen the grand jury testimony. If youve done a good job in the grand jury, youre not going to have any surprises as the prosecutor because he was under oath then, hes under oath now. He knows if he gives an inconsistent story he could be prosecuted for perjury in one of those two instances. Thats why the d. A. Is putting him on now. Adam, whats your sense of what the prosecution needs to accomplish with mcconney . I echo what carol just said. This is a very important witness. When he indicated in the ledger these were payments for Legal Services, somebody must have told him, write down its for Legal Services. Thats a key answer to get out. The prosecution has to ask why did you write its for Legal Services, why did you write its for retainer for Legal Services. Who told you to do that . Crucial witness. What does the answer need to be if it were to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the underlying allegations here that this was a falsification of Business Records to cover up an Election Crime . If he it was it was donald trump who told me to write down these are payments for Legal Services, i think that would go a very long way, almost all of the way to supporting the prosecutions case. I think stepping back, this appears to be a respectable witness. Weve seen a host of witnesses here from the National Enquirer to others who are completely offcolor witnesses, you could say. This is a witness who is a bookkeeper, an accountant, who is doing his job. Hell have a level of credibility that the other witnesses wont have. More color from the courtroom that the jury, as hes offering somewhat dry, technical testimony right now, the jury seems to be very focused, that they are looking from the witness to the prosecutor, back to the witness, so following the line of questioning. Ankush, we mentioned he served in the Trump Organization, this witness, Jeff Mcconney, for 35 years. Vaughn mentioned how he was found liable in a Civil Fraud Trial. Hes already faced questions about his own behavior within the Trump Organization. Does any of that background to his story impact this case . Yeah. Its certainly relevant. I think for the prosecutors its somewhat helpful actually. What you have really is someone you can characterize as sort of in on the scheme, maybe not in a central way, but in at least a peripheral way. Well learn how much involvement as this testimony goes on and how much awareness he really had. But in terms of him having this Credibility Problem, and the Credibility Problem emerges from him having served Donald Trumps objectives in a way that did not have integrity. Here we may see a similar sort of fact pattern emerge depending on what he it was about. Ordinarily that would be a knock on the credibility of the witness. Here its on theme. Everyone stay close. Well keep our eyes on the trial and bring you the developments as they happen. Plus, four weeks in were getting a better idea of how his campaign is looking to tamp down on courtroom revelations. Is the strategy of deny, deny, deny sustainable . Also, the trump veepstakes. Who would be a good number two for a criminally charged twiceimpeached former president. Who trump is comparing to Nazi Secret Police. Were back in 90 seconds. Were back in 90 seconds to seve Rheumatoid Arthritis symptoms. With my Psoriatic Arthritis symptoms. But just ok isnt ok. And i was done settling. If you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. Rinvoq is a oncedaily pill that can rapidly relieve joint pain, stiffness, and swelling in ra and psa. Relieve fatigue for some. And stop joint damage. And in psa, can leave skin clear or almost clear. Rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. 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This morning marks the start of the the fourth week of drums Hush Money Trial, giving us a look at the inner work innings of the Trump White House and the 2016 campaign. This morning Jeff Mcconney facing questions about invoices paid in 2017 when trump was president. I want to bring in Reuters White House correspondent jeff mason and Senior National correspondent for the washington post. Mcconney is testifying about the invoice sent in February Of 2017, some of the earliest days of the trump administration. What was happening in the white house at that time . Take us back. Sure. This is very early in the Trump White House. My reporting at the time showed that the then president and his staff were kind of trying just to get up to speed. Things were a little way ot tick then. Although its worth noting things in different ways maintained chaotic throughout his presidency. Trump went in, its worth noting, too, believing the presidency was a bit like a monarchy which it is not. Hes grappling on the legislative front to get things passed you have to get the senate to pass something and the house to agree. He was still kind of trying to staff up in these different factions in his own white house that would turn out to be warring factions. There was a little back fighting and infighting. It was a president who had never been a politician before, had never run for office, didnt come to the presidency with a huge cadre of longtime washington hands or aids, trying to get his bearings and his footings in what was even to him initially a somewhat improbable victory. Jeff, the trump team had said he would be very separated from what was happening with his business at that time. His sons would be in charge. Was that the reality . Well, thats a good question. Youre right that he said that and that they promised that would be the case. Im sure he continued to have obviously contact with his kids, but i have no way to say to what extend they discussed the business. I would underscore what ashley was saying. This is all unfolding at a time of the Reality Show President the early months of the reality show presidency. During with the chaos of coming into the white house, of at that time his attempt the muslim ban, continuing to hold rallies despite the fact that he was then the president of the United States, refiling to run for president a second time right after being inaugurated as president of the United States, all of which happening at the same time that hes trying to protect his reputation here, and fast forward in that reality show to 2024 and here we are. Ashley, todays testimony comes after former trump aide hope hicks took the stand on friday. Its hard to think of anyone who was closer to trump from the end of the campaign to his time in office, what did you think of the chaotic response to things like the access Hollywood Tape . Its hard to overstate just how complicated hope hicks and trumps relationship was and is. She was one of the first people to join his campaign. At the time she was very young. She was 26 years old. Shes quite young now relatively. She is 35. She came into that world nonideological. Her really north star was protecting trump, his interests, his feelings. She was someone he trusted and viewed almost as a daughter which meant that she was always there. I did a story on her last week where i described her as the zelle lig of trump world. He put her in a desk right outside the oval office, a desk traditionally reserved for more of a junior aide, an Executive Assistant secretary type. The reason she was there, he wanted her close at hand, so he could call to ask her opinion, to chat with her, gossip, pull her into meetings. The role she played for prosecutors was despite the fact that twice shes tried to leave trumps orbit, she was in and out as david pecker who ran the National Enquirer testified, a key meeting because she was always there, even if it wasnt in her specific policy portfolio. Jeff, hicks testified about her time in the white house. She also talked about some Text Messages she exchanged with trumps Executive Assistant. Shes expected to stake the stnd. What kind of light can she shed . Both of them were critical characters in the early years of the Trump White House. Madeline ended up having to leave the white house after having something leak she said to a group of reporters. Hope hicks was there for the first couple years, then left and came back. Again, both of them were so integral to the running of the trump show which was the white house at that time. Okay. Thank you both, jeff mason and ashley parker. I appreciate your insight. Its important form us to rewind because its so important for this trial for us to understand what was happening then. Up next, back to that building we all probably recognize in manhattan where week four of Donald Trumps Hush Money Trial is picking up. Our team has new details from the courtroom from the latest witness. Stay with us. Youre watching ana cabrera reports. Clear metamucil gummies the easy way to get your daily fiber. You know whats brilliant . Boring. Think about it. Boring is the unsung catalyst for bold. What straps bold to a rocket and hurtles it into space . Boring does. Boring makes vacations happen, early retirements possible, and startups start up. Because its smart, dependable, and steady. All words you want from your bank. For nearly 160 years, pnc bank has been brilliantly boring so you can be happily fulfilled. Which is pretty unboring if you think about it. Business. Its not a ninetofive proposition. Its all day and into the night. 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This is happening as donald trump is preparing and being sworn into office and then all the way to the week after Donald Trumps first week in the white house. This is conversations that Jeffrey Mcconney, the controller for the Trump Organization, is now articulating in front of the jury. It has to do with what Allen Weisselberg told him about the Reimbursement Checks to Michael Cohen. Again, Allen Weisselberg we dont expect to testify. Thats what makes Jeffrey Mcconneys testimony so key here. Theyre going in january of 2017, beginning have to have a conversation about those checks that needed to get back to Michael Cohen, mcconney is saying. Hes noting as the guy overseeing the ledger for the Trump Organization, the trump trust and his personal accounts, that Allen Weisselberg directed him to reimburse and oversee invoices sent to them by Michael Cohen, to have him reimbursed, as well as continue to add on money for bonus because, according to mcconney, cohen was frustrated by his bonus for the previous year. This is where were going to be getting into the actual notes that mcconney had taken about how much was going to need to be sent to Michael Cohen. There were 11 checks, just to remind everybody. In 2017 there were 11 specific checks that went back to Michael Cohen. The first two checks were signed by Allen Weisselberg and don jr. Coming from the trust. That was in february and march of 2017. The other nine checks were signed by donald trump himself and came from his personal account. What were hitting at here, in the testimony currently under way from a Longtime Trump loyalist of 35 years is how ultimately they were directed to sign off on those invoices and sign the checks then given to Michael Cohen as the initial Reimbursement Checks. Thank you, vaughn. Do keep us posted. Let me take it to our attorneys here. Im reading from our google document from the recording in the courtroom where the prosecutor asks, when did you become aware mr. Cohen was being rereimbursed. Mcconney says i had a conversation with Allen Weisselberg. Mcconney said i started taking notes on what allen said. Thats how i find out about it. He has these notes from that time. That takes jurors back. Hes directly talking about reimbursing Michael Cohen in 2017. How key is this testimony . Its important to remember, ana, each witness provides only a portion of the picture. So we have to assume that what the d. A. Is doing at this point is they are introducing evidence that shows how a gets to b, but then we still have to see testimony that shows how b gets to c. Theyre showing what was going through Jeff Mcconneys mind as he makes these entries into the ledger, why hes doing it. Hes say its because Michael Cohen was upset about not getting enough bonus, he was sort of making a pain of himself during the early days of trumps presidency. Well have to see in the upcoming testimony how and when that gets tied back to donald trump. Whats notable to me, adam, is that hes getting these directions from Allen Weisselberg who was his direct boss, mcconneys direct boss at the Trump Organization who he says is telling him we need to do these reimbursements, hes the one hes taking notes about what the payments are going to look like. If weisselberg is the middle man, would you expect wed have to hear from weisselberg . How do we get from mcconney back to trump . We may have to hear from weisselberg. Its going to depend on what the current witness, mcconney, has to say about the directions. I think whats really interesting here is all the people coming into the room taking notes. Where are the invoices . Normally lawyers sending legitimate bills, legitimate invoices for legitimate Legal Services, there would be an invoice from front of him. There could be nobody coming into the rooms or taking notes. Whats extraordinary here is theres no invoice. Theres nothing coming up. Someone is coming in the room saying here is who we need to pay, spread out the payments overall these months. I think the Point Adam Made i think is a very astute one. Hes exactly right. Lawyers definitely dont get paid like this in the ordinary course with no bills, no time sheets and no questions about what they were really up to. I think the key thing here is, as carol described it, mcconney is filling in part of the story. Thats useful and necessary for the prosecution in its own right. The question that i have which im sure will be answered in some capacity over the course of the testimony is where mcconney himself had any reason to doubt the accuracy of those entries. If so, if he did, whether he did anything about it. That would one way or the other help move the story along in terms of understanding, okay, the entries may have been false. What did people in the Trump Organization think about and why they were doing what they were doing. We have yet to pull the curtain back on that part of it which is the government is going to have to prove. Up next on ana cabrera reports, while well bring you more updates from the trial, well turn to the trail. When donald trump wasnt in court this weekend he was at a florida fundraiser that turned into a veepstakes extravaganza. Who is leading in the vp horse race. The Dark Comparison Trump made about the Biden Administration and the nazis. 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Have a good one. Woman you too. Tech schedule today at safelite. Com. Singers safelite repair, safelite replace. Heres to Getting Better with age. Heres to beating these two every thursday. Help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need. Without the stuff you dont. So, heres to now. Boost. This morning donald trump is facing new backlash for comments he made on his return to the Campaign Trail this weekend, comparing the Biden White House to the gestapo. At a maralago luncheon with donors on saturday. Dasha burns is joining us from florida. And also with us, former White House Press secretary john gibbs and maura gillespie. Dasha, this is certainly not the first time trump has gotten into hot water for references to nazi germany. Walk us through what happened . Reporter palm beach became the epicenter of gop politics this weekend, and a lot of news coming out, including a lot of news made by the former president in about a 90minute speech to 400 or so donors and big names in the republican party. As he talked about the legal troubles hes facing, he compared the Biden Administration to the Nazi Secret Police, saying these people are running a Gestapo Administration and thats the only thing they have. It was a profanitylaced speech, more than what we normally hear from him on the Campaign Trail. Another big piece is the veepstakes showdown, the majority of the short listers did make their way to palm beach and maralago this weekend. The former president bringing a lot of them up on stage and shouting them out. He praised elise steph nan nick for her role in challenging the Harvard University president on the hill. He praised senator j. D. Vance saying he turned out to be incredible after he was a pretty come meant trump critic in 2016, said senator tim scott did a good job in his own campaign but as a surrogate hes unbelievable. He did acknowledge, notably, senator marco rubio and congressman byron donls as potential vp candidates but said they have a, quote, florida problem, given both of them are living in the same state as the former president. Governor burg ham, the former president said hes a very rich man, made a lot of money. Also gave a shoutout to kristi noem who is in a bit of hot water for what shes talked about with killing her dog in her book. He said shes been with me, shes been a supporter, though he did not bring her up on stage, ana. Dasha, the gestapo comments that he made, what was the context . Reporter he was talking about it in the context of all the trials, all the legal troubles that hes facing. Basically comparing the Biden Administration to the Nazi Secret Police in the context of this weaponized Justice System that he keeps alleging is coming after him. Robert, i want to get your reaction to that reference to the holocaust right now, at a time when jewish communities here in the u. S. And around the world are really feeling threatened. Yeah. Obviously its something that is despicable. Its unfortunately what weve come to expect from donald trump when he gets into talking about his own legal troubles, not his actions or responsibilities, trying to in a negative way characterize everything else. I can only imagine as he sits there four out of the five days of the week, this stuff builds up. This language that weve heard, references weve heard in similar instances before. Look, they continue to think, the republican side and the Trump Campaign continue to think drawing attention to this trial and drawing some sort of action, activity around it is important for who he is and the message he has. I dont think it works with suburban swing voters quite the way they think it does, but i dont think there are many cards they have to play on that. Pick up on that, mora, was donald trump playing to an audience with those comments, or was it even too far for them as well . In other words, were Republican Voters cringing or cheering a comment like that . I think with donald trump hes always playing the victim. In his brain, it is just whats happening in his world. Hes not thinking outside context, not thinking about anyone else but himself. In that moment i think hes playing to what he thinks the base would normally cheer for, things he says are director towards President Biden and his administration and what theyve, as he claims, have been attacking him, putting him in the position in the first place to be on trial and what he calls sham trials. It all kind of goes into what donald trump does. Again, its his role of playing the victim. I dont know it plays to the small percentage of voters that will make or break the 2024 election. Independent voters, women perhaps. As dasha mentioned there were aa bunch of potential vp picks including tim scott who joined Kristen Welker on Meet The Press yesterday. She pressed him on whether hell accept the 2024 Election Results. Watch this. Senator, will you commit to accepting the Election Results of 2024, bottom line . At the end of the day the 47th president of the United States will be president donald trump. Im excited to get back to low inflation, low floiment senator, yes or no. Will you accept the Election Results of 2024 no matter who wins . That is my statement. Just yes or no. Will you accept the Election Results of 2024 . I look forward to President Trump being the president. Senator, just a yes or no answer. Robert, scott was not a 2020 election denier, yet he couldnt say yes, that he will accept the 2024 Election Results. How concerning is that . Well, its all part of the tryout. Listen, having these wouldbe Vice President ial candidates come down, calling them out, having to interact with donors, having some of them speak, this is donald trump watching them try out to be loyal to him regardless of what theyve said in the past, regardless of their actions and their statements, and what you saw tim scott do on Meet The Press was just a continuation of that tryout. Drum wants to see if these candidates are all in on supporting donald trump and whatever actions he may or may not take at the end of this election. Its a startling thing to watch a u. S. Senator who ran his own president ial campaign sort of stammer on something so obvious that he was going to get asked this question. Many of them will be asked this question between now and election day. But, again, i think he gave the answer that he wanted donald trump most to hear, not necessarily one he may believe in his mind. What do you make of it . Whats your take . I think its really bad for not only the republican party, but for the country as a whole. Especially for the trump voters. You should want somebody to say they are going to accept the Election Results. Right now polls are showing that donald trump is ahead of joe biden. So to then have this interview where he is refusing to outright say it, i think that creates a real problem for them going forward. One, i think its slightly embarrassing for senator tim scott to refuse to answer a question about our basic democracy and our system of government, but its really important for republicans to accept the results of an election. Its about the democratic system here in this country as you mentioned. Thank you for joining us, dosh shah burns, robert gips and maura gillespie. Well turn back to the courtroom in manhattan where weve been getting a flood of updates in the Hush Money Trial. From gag order violations and a former president as a defendant, a Revolveing Door of highprofile witnesses, ill talk to a former judge about how judge merchan has handled this historic and delicate case. Historic and delicate case the only Migraine Medication that helps treat and prevent, all in one. To those with migraine, i see you. For the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of Episodic Migraine in adults. Dont take if allergic to nurtec odt. 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Ahh zevo is made with Essential Oils which attack bugs biological systems. It wipes cleanly, plus is safe for use around people and pets. Gotcha zevo. Peoplefriendly. Bugdeadly. Welcome back. Were following Breaking News out of Donald Trumps Hush Money Trial with a new witness on the stand, Longtime Trump org controller Jeff Mcconney is testifying this morning about payments to Michael Cohen. Joining us from the courthouse is nbcs yasmin vossoughian. Yasmin, start us off for this block. Were getting into the nittygritty of how much cohen was getting paid and these reimbursements. What are jurors hearing . Reporter were getting into the reimbursements, the falsifying of the Business Records, really the crux of this entire thing and major consequential testimony from mcconney. Lets talk numbers if we can. 420,000 we now know was the ultimate payout. Let me break it down if i can. That was 60,000 paid out to Michael Cohen in bonuses. 180,000, 130,000 to davidson reportedly to Stormy Daniels. The rest of that. 50,000 going to redfin, a tech firm. Another 180,000 going towards taxes. A conversation happening with Allen Weisselberg saying have they paid up Michael Cohen . Whats so consequential is he is saying directly this money was coming from Donald Trumps personal account. Its important to keep that in mind. Hes making the direct connection of not only the payout when it comes to Stormy Daniels, but the inflated payout of 420,000 for the taxes that Michael Cohen had to pay out. One other thing i want to note, if we think back to Opening Statements from the defense, todd blanche. He painted a picture of a frugal businessman that is donald trump. How could donald trump pay out 420,000 when he is watching every single penny going in and out of the Trump Organization . How could he overinflate his payout to Michael Cohen . Why would he do Something Like that . This testimony from mcconney is connecting those dots, ana. Judge cote, welcome to the conversation here. What is your initial reaction as to what the jurors are learning from this latest witness . Well, i think its moral what were seeing in terms of the technical aspects of the trial, trying to be proven by the prosecution and the requirement that the testimony and evidence of the witnesses be consistent with that. Were seeing information that must be received in order to tie the dots or connect the dots, and the witness is doing that. Carol, when we have this paper trail with these emails, with the notes that mcconney during during his conversations with weisselberg. How crucial is that paper trail in terms of evidence . To a former prosecutor, paper is a wonderful thing. It never changes. Its well, to a prosecutor, paper is a wonderful thing. It never changes. You can point the jury to it time and again. Its really important to the prosecution. Witness testimony can be shaped or argued that theres ambiguity, but documents are really important. Were seeing the irrefutable evidence about where those dollars went to and why. Yasmins point is well taken. Why was donald trump so generous in this single instance of reimbursing Michael Cohen that went to Stormy Daniels. It means they were essentially paying the taxes for Michael Cohen in receiving this money. That is not necessarily illegal, but it shows this unusual step was taken and its documented here that the that donald trump was so concerned about this whole incident with Stormy Daniels that he was going to be so generous, probably in an effort to keep everybody silent about this. As a reminder to our viewers, the payment to Stormy Daniels was 130,000. Michael cohen got more than 400,000 at the end of the day in these 11 checks that were allegedly, illegally labeled just Business Records. They were paid to a lawyer payments, not hushmoney payments. Adam, when you listen to the testimony the jurors are hearing specifically, what stands out about how theyre discussing these payments to you . It stands out to me that everybody in the circle of payments, both the paying and the receiving side, understood this was a fake system, that this was fake payments for fake invoices there werent invoices. There werent legal fees. On the paying side, theyre saying give me invoices. On the receiving side, Michael Cohen is not sending invoices. He didnt have invoices to send. Whats notable and important is nobody said, hey, this described Legal Services that were happening and we paid that. To the contrary. Everybody understood there werent Legal Services being paid. There were false entries being put into the books. Judge, does that atypical handling of these payments to Michael Cohen prove the case . It certainly goes to proof of a Standard Operating Procedure or lack of following a Standard Operating Procedure, a procedure that raises questions. So that the argument can be made without objection by counsel as they do their Closing Arguments and present other evidence. This level of corroboration, this level of what was happening, how it happened and allowing the lawyers who comment on that in their Closing Argument will be key. Judge, i want to ask you about the other news we broke at the top of the hour. That was the ruling on gag order violations where the judge found trump in content again. Said fines dont seem to be a deterrent. He did get hit with another fine. He warned, i will, if necessary, throw you in jail. What do you make of the steps the judge is taking so far . Theyre key. One of the things that happens in terms of contempt or contempt proceedings which is what happens for violation of a gag order is that judges have to make sure theyre following the law, that the facts are there to support their findings and theyre not allowing a motion or any outside influences. One of the things we saw happening, of course, was the judge making sure that he understood what the gag order meant, that which of the individuals are covered by that and how you are limited and in what way youre limited. I thought it was really important for us to see the judge get that information on the record by saying, you understand . You can talk about me. You can talk about the elected prosecutor and then review who is off limits and why. That will become key in any sort of appellate examination of the gag order, of any violation of it and the proceedings that would follow. Lets go back to yasmin outside the courthouse. Right now theyre into testimony about why these payments were labeled as Legal Expenses. Tell us what were learning, yasmin. Reporter this is getting to the crux of essentially falsifying the Business Records which is incredible important. There was a mention of eric trump as well who is sitting in the courtroom. The attorney for the people asking, did you ever see a Retainer Agreement . Mcconney replying, i did not. Let me read the email submitted as evidence. This was february 14, 2017. The payments had already begun. Remember, there were payments of 35,000 over a 12month period. He said, okay to pay as per don and eric . Did you send this invoice to the Legal Department . Mcconney says, no. Was it typical for them to review for Legal Services . This is important. Put retainer for the months of january and february 2017. Remember, as i mentioned earlier, did you ever see a Retainer Agreement that was asked. Mcconney said no, Alan Weisselberg said put retainer for january and February Of 2017 in the description. Now were getting into the crux of falsifying Business Records. As we talked about Star Witnesses here, Michael Cohen taking the stand, Stormy Daniels. The star witness is going to be the documents. Yasmin vossoughian, thank you for that update. Our coverage will continue as we watch whats happening inside the courtroom. Yasmin vossoughian and judge phyllis kotey, thank you for being part of this hour. That does it for me today. Im Ana Cabrera Reporting for new york. Jose diazbalart picks up our coverage next after this. Coverage next after this its gotta be tide. With powerful, easytouse tools, power e trade makes complex trading easier. React to fastmoving markets with dynamic charting and a Futures Ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you wont miss an opportunity. E trade from Morgan Stanley you know, i spend a lot of time thinking about dirt. 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