Washington, d. C. I am jen psaki. Chris hayes has the night off and will be back tomorrow night. Donald trump is back in court this morning for day 10, if you are counting, of his criminal trial. Todays proceedings began with another hearing on the ex president s repeated and i mean repeated violations of his gag order. We will talk about that later in the show for sure, but things really got interested once davidson returned to the stand today. He is the former lawyer for both of the women trump is accused of paying off. Karen mcdougal and Stormy Daniels. From the witness stand, davidson pulled back the curtain on a statement he wrote on behalf of daniels, seeming to deny her affair with trump. He admitted with trump sitting in front of him in the courtroom that the Stormy Daniels statement was designed to look like a denial. Basically a nondenial denial, you could say. The statement wrote i have recently became aware that certain news outlets are alleging i have a sexual or romantic affair with donald trump many, many years ago. I am stating with complete clarity that this is absolutely false. The and or is a strange part of the statement. Davidson used some particularly lawyerly language to parse why he believed that statement to be true, saying, quote, i dont think anyone had ever alleged that any interaction between daniels and trump was romantic. Look, i have written a lot of statements in my time. Not about the sort of thing, fortunately. Despite the just Friends With Benefits vibe of davidsons answers, the interesting part to me is there is no outright denial of what happened or who is behind the attempt to cover it up and he testified that it was his understanding that trump and daniels did indeed have a bit of a thing going on, you could say. Later in the afternoon the jury heard audio from Michael Cohen for the first time in the form of a previously released recording of a phone call where cohen and trump discuss paying off mcdougal to cover up that affair, including cohen discussing financing and trump seeming to confirm the amount. We knew that recording was out there, but today the jury got to hear donald trump in his own voice. There is something to that. Ive spoken to Allen Weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up with funding. Yes. Its all the stuff. All the stuff, because so i am all over that. And i spoke to alan about it. When it comes time for the financing, which will be what financing . Well, ill have to pay him something. No check. It is pretty specific. The jury also heard a recording regarding Stormy Daniels and this recording we did not know about before today. Nobody is thinking about michael. You understand . Despite what, for example the earlier conversation, you know, and who else would do that for somebody, who else . Yeah. I did. Yeah. Because i care about the guy and i wasnt going to play penny wise pound foolish. Right. Right. And i am sitting there. Im saying to myself, what about me . What about me . And i cant even tell you how many times he said to me, you know, i hate the fact that we did it and my comment to him was, but every person that you have spoken to told you it was the right move. Right. That was a lot of Michael Cohen and only a tiny bit of Keith Davidson and that reporting, but davidson said he understood that he referred to trump and we did it referred to the payment to daniels. Couldnt be much more clear than that, i think. Remember the entire argument for a big part of the argument made by the defenses that trump knew nothing about these payments, that Michael Cohen went rogue when he paid these women, for what reason no one can explain except trump. It seems to fly in the face of the notion this happened without trumps knowledge, something Michael Cohen himself will likely attest to when he takes the stand later in the trial. We also expect to hear from others close to trump, including his longtime aide, hope hicks, who was on these calls and could provide amount of evidence in the days ahead. Lisa rubin is a Legal Correspondent in the courthouse today. George conway is an attorney and contributing writer at the atlantic, covering the trump trials. Mary mccort has spent 20 years as a federal prosecutor in d. C. , where she served as the chief of the Criminal Division and hosts the podcast, prosecuting donald trump. They all join me now. Lisa, lets start with you because you were at the trial today. What was it like when they heard these recordings for the first time . We heard a lot of recordings for the first time. We heard the two that you mentioned and there were others that the defense admitted because they say they demonstrate that Keith Davidson was a person not to be trusted, that he was playing games with the Stormy Daniels story and by the spring of 2015 when Michael Avenatti took over the Stormy Daniels case, he was effectively saying to people, you know that this is all what my grandmother would call and the defense tried to get davidson to say that was his understanding of the story, which he wouldnt. I think the one that had the most impact, even though trumps voice was not on it was the one about Stormy Daniels, for a couple of reasons. One, the falsification of the Business Records that comprises the charge, it is not about karen mcdougal, it is about Stormy Daniels. The second part is that Michael Cohen and Keith Davidson have the conversation in the fall of 2017, before Michael Cohen himself went rogue and broke from trump world. To hear him say in his own voice not only is no one worried about me, but i cant tell you how many times he and i have talked about the fact that he hated that we did the settlement and yet everyone around him consistently told him it was the right thing to do. That demonstrates that the people within the cone of knowledge may not have just been cohen and pecker and davidson and trump, but potentially others, as well. At least by the fall of 2017, even if they didnt know so in real time. That was the call that timmy had the most impact and i am interested to see, as this goes on, whether we will hear further recordings that cohen made on his own or other participants may have made. The prosecution has said all along, you think this case is all about Michael Cohen, but really you are going to see a whole lot of evidence that you didnt expect. We are going to show you paper an email and Text Messages and recordings and sure enough that is exactly what they have done so far. I mean, that recording, i hate the fact that we did it. It was Michael Cohen repeating something trump said to him and it also struck me as significant. Also we had not heard that recording before, so maybe there will be more things we heard. What struck you george . That struck me. Some people online said they may have thought that was helpful, but i cant see it. Its like having two bank robbers and one robs the bank and one leader says on tape to somebody else, you know, my co conspirator, my cobank robber, the guy who drove the getaway car kind of aggressively did that. We shouldnt of robbed the bank. That does not help the defense and the other thing about it is again, as lisa pointed out, the timing. This was back when cohen was not only in trumps good graces, but as the u. S. Attorneys office later said, acting at the benefit of and direction of individual number one, donald trump. It is so interesting. Mary, we were talking earlier before we came onset about what they are trying to do, the prosecution, to set this up for Michael Cohens testimony. He has credibility issues which people have spoken about. That is part of the defense line of argument. So what were they trying to do today with playing these recordings and putting questioning out there . I think credibility is an understatement. I worked in diplomacy. They are going to corroborate every single possible way they can, through text, emails, through recordings. Corroborate in advance the things they expect him to say, but they are also trying to take the sting out of the bad stuff. They are not shying away from painting him as somebody, frankly, that no one seemed to like. People have testified so far, including, in particular, davidson, did not have nice things to say about mr. Cohen and certainly thought he was aggressive and put pressure on people and was nasty and things like that and i think they want to get the jury kind of comfortable with this, so that that is not a new thing by the time he takes the stand, so they can focus on what he is testifying to and how that has been corroborated. The psychology of this as a nonlawyer is so interesting to me. Lisa, this may not have been the most important part of today, but i thought Keith Davidson kind of parsing his words when discussing the denial he wrote for Stormy Daniels, i dont know, it felt a little odd, but i am sure there was a strategy to it. What do you think . First of all when i was thinking of Keith Davidson on the stand, explaining how he thought those statements were factually accurate, even though anyone could see how misleading they were, i thought this is why normal people hate lawyers, right . So lawyerly, yes. It is why people make lawyer jokes, but in all seriousness i think davidson had a reasonable explanation. He had a client who was chomping at the bit to exploit some of the notoriety she was getting and at the same time she took seriously the fact that the agreement that she had had a liquidated damages clause that meant if she breached the Confidentiality Part of the agreement, she could have to pay 1 million for each violation and so he was between a client who very much wanted to be in The Public Eye and mitigating risk for her and that is how he chose to do it. From that standpoint the sort of obnoxiousness of Keith Davidson trying to be like this is what i did and it was too cute by half and yeah i did it. It is more sympathetic in that i. Whether the jury will take that away, im not sure, but to marys point i think the prosecution is doing an overall good job sort of situating this story and seediness of some of the people involved. They dont have to like these folks. They just have to believe they are telling the truth about the ultimate alleged bad guy, the former president of the united states. We have to take a break in a moment, but i have been wondering all day what you thought of this trump post where he is is he said contrary to the Fake News Media i dont fall asleep during the crooked d. A. S witchhunt. I simply close my beautiful blue eyes, sometimes, listen intently, and take it all in. George conway. That is perfect donald trump. His reputation has been in the past that he is sleepy donald. Ive talked to people who wrote books about him back in the day and he never showed up at trump tower before 11 00 a. M. And we know what he did at the white house. He was not there in the morning. He was not an early riser to read his important briefing books. This is rough on him. He has to get up every morning. He is not free to fly around the country like we are and the people on the telephone commercials. There is that for a reason. Okay, you are all staying where you are. We are going to discuss the gag order. We are going to take a really quick break and we will be right back. Right back. I have moderate to severe Plaque Psoriasis. Thanks to skyrizi, im on my way with clearer skin. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90 clearer skin at 4 months. And skyrizi is just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. Serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. Nothing on my skin means everything nothing is everything ask your dermatologist about skyrizi. Learn how abbvie could help you save. Youll love this Centrum Silver is clinically proven to support memory in older adults. So you can keep saying, you mastered it you fixed it you nailed it you did it with Centrum Silver, clinically proven to support memory in older adults. Smile you found it. 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The area is mostly all democrats. You think of it as purely a democrat area. Michael cohen is a convicted liar and he has no credibility whatsoever. He was a lawyer and you rely on your lawyers, but he was a convicted lawyer. Hes been very nice. Davids been very nice. Nice guy. Remember trump has to write a 9000 check, a lot of money for most people, for social media posts the judge found violated his order. While the judge warned the jail time could be a process consequence, prosecutor said theyre not seeking that yet. Still with me, lisa rubin, George Conway and mary mccord. I cant imagine how many times you get asked this question, like why havent they put him in jail . But prosecutors dont want that right now, why not . They said two things. One, he had not been warned yet by judge merchan on tuesday that the next consequence might be jail at the time they moved to hold him in contempt. So really, that would not necessarily change what the judge could do, because there is a statute that says what the judge can do. It says you can be given 1000 per incident or incarcerated for 30 days, but i think the prosecutor is saying he was not really on notice. This was his last chance. The other thing he said was it is very disruptive and were trying not to be so disruptive. To be honest i think what they also think is this would make donald trump more of a martyr. That is what i was wondering, if they were thinking that, if that is the calculus for the prosecutors. I think they have to be thinking that. On one hand donald trump does not want to spend a night or two nights in a cellblock, much less 30, but i think prosecutors dont want that happening in the middle of this trial with him getting a whole lot of people thinking that this is a weaponized justice system, et cetera, et cetera. Lisa, we know you were in the courtroom today, but you are also outside the courthouse every day, telling us what is happening. What happened in this hearing and for those trying to stay up with this, why doesnt the judge rule in the moment and say you violated this, this is what you have to pay . For one thing, i think he expects that in all accounts with respect to the gag order, the Trump Lawyers will seek an appeal, so he wants to reduce his decision to writing so other judges have the benefit of seeing his decisions. He is also trying to be as fair and deliberate as he can be and there is one other facet. In the last order he basically said if there are witnesses that use his gag order as a sword and shield, that would be a consideration for him as he weighs whether there are further violations. Today todd blanche brought up a number of social media posts by Michael Cohen in the last couple weeks, including a couple on april 22, april 23, which are the same dates as some of the statements donald trump made about cohen. His point was, look, my client is responding to political attacks on him by Michael Cohen. I think judge merchan is weighing what to do about that to ensure that people who need to be protected are protected, but also considering, do other participants in this process need to themselves be subjected to the gag order to ensure the Fair Administration of justice all the way around . Right, trump is not the only one attacking. George, we have all been trying to get into the mind of donald trump. I feel like you have been deepest. Thanks. I dont think it is a compliment. Talking about the psychology of prosecutors, the psychology of trump. Again, operating like a normal person worried about consequences. Does he want to be reprimanded . Is this kind of the goal so he can go camping . I dont think he thinks that strategically. I think he acts the way narcissist are basically programmed, especially narcissists and sociopaths. They deny, attack. They reverse the victim and offender. You hear psychologists talk about narcissistic abusers. Basically what they say to victims is look at what you made me do to you. He did it to the country, he is doing it to the judge, doing it to the witnesses in the case and you know it is this reptilian instinct of his. I think what the judge has to do is impose some more fines of 2000 or 3000 or whatever and say this is it. Now you will go to jail. This is it. Weve gone through this twice. The next time we come back with anything similar to what i had before with these fines, you are going to spend an hour on the bus going up to rikers. That is significant. They close to the tombs. I dont know, maybe they have a holding cell. That is a lot to factor in. You alluded to this statute. The judge kind of said i wish it could be more. What can it be . What is the possibility in terms of financial fines, because 9000 is a lot of money to most people. Maybe not donald trump. This is the problem with the statute. It is limited to 1000 per violation. He could rack up a lot of violations, you could get to a big number, but still it would be a lot to get to a number that would be paying for donald trump. That is what judge merchan recognized. This might mean a lot to some people, but the problem is when somebody has wealth like trump, this may not be meaningful and this may be why i need to consider other things like incarceration. There again the incarceration is for up to 30 days, because this was not a condition for his release, which could be revoked for violating the gag order. These were separate criminal proceedings within a separate case that have their own penalty. So he is going to keep attacking people, presumably, as are other people around him. Lisa referenced other people should be under a gag order. What happens next . I think it will violate the gag order again and judge merchan will face a difficult decision about whether to put the guy in the clink for a little while and i think what he has got to do is basically make very, very clear when he issues his ruling on the current motion that this is going to happen. I would not put them in for 30 days, but i would remand him first for at least an hour or two, to show we can do this to you. And he will go out and play the victim again, but ive got to say the record is going to be, he has just defiant and challenging the court to do that. When it comes to people like trump, you do actually, in the end, have to show they have consequences. The way they get away with things is they are such a pain, they are so difficult, they are so annoying that you just sort of but you have to. You have to, thats the point. Mary mccord, George Conway, lisa rubin, thank you all so much for joining me. I appreciate it. Still ahead, a tale of two governors as republican kristi noem tries to talk herself out of one of the least sympathetic scandals of all time. Katie hobbs signs a bill repealing arizonas Draconian Abortion Restriction and she joins me next. Start your day with nature made. The 1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. For moderate to severe Crohns Disease skyrizi is the first il23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. Serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. Liver problems may occur in Crohns Disease. Control of crohns means everything to me. Ask your gastroenterologist about skyrizi. Control is everything to me learn how abbvie could help you save. 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The 1864 law is still expected to take effect beginning as soon as june 27. According to state law the Appeal Cannot Go Into Effect until 90 days after the legislative session concludes, which is likely in july. At that Point Arizona would revert to a 15 week ban passed in 2022. Abortion advocates are focusing their attention on a proposed Ballot Measure which would enshrine a fundamental right to abortion in the state constitution. That is expected to be on the ballot this november. Joining me now is Arizona Governor katie hobbs. Thank you so much for taking the time. The repeal bill is a big step, but as i tried to outline there and please correct me if i got anything wrong, the situation reads a little bit complicated. What should women in arizona know about where the reproductive rights stands today . You are exactly right. It is complicated and even though today is a big moment to celebrate and a huge victory for Reproductive Freedom in arizona, this fight is so far from over. Last week we stood up a website, Reproductive Health, so that arizonans could get clarification on exactly what is happening. What laws are in effect regarding Reproductive Health care and where they can find resources and the health care that they need. So that certainly does not solve the problem that this ban might actually be in effect and i think the confusion that is created from all of this is exactly why we need to pass this Ballot Measure in november. So that we never have to face this kind of ban again, whether it is 1864 or 2022 that has no exceptions for rape or incest or complications of pregnancy. Join us at arizonans for Abortion Access. Im sure people have a lot of questions. I wanted to ask about that amendment and the ballot initiative. Organizers say they have enough signatures. Obviously this would be a huge step forward. What do you think, i often think it is underestimated in what a Driving Issue it is for people. What effect do you think it would have on Voter Turnout . I certainly saw, over the past few weeks, after the Supreme Court of arizona upheld this 1864, draconian band, fear, confusion, chaos, and outrage. Certainly this is an issue that will motivate voters up and down the ballot and certainly Abortion Access is on the ballot in november in arizona. Not only is this exact measure on the ballot, but the chance to vote for legislators who respect Reproductive Freedom. The republicans that voted with the democrats on this repeal did it out of political convenience. They did it because they saw the political consequences. It is not because they support Reproductive Freedom. Such an important thing to remember. I wanted to ask you about kari lake. You ran against her and defeated her and i think things would look very different today if that had not happened. Absolutely. She is a Shape Shifter on this issue. What do you make of that . It sounds like political convenience, but you know her well. What you make of it . It is exactly that. Political opportunism. The folks who celebrated dobbs. When it was not necessarily in effect, said this is great, like kari lake said. Now they are backtracking. It is politically inconvenient and the cost is going to be very high. So it is not genuine, for sure. You referenced this send you one by under 20,000 votes. The Attorney General won by a very narrow couple of hundred votes. It is such a reminder of how important Down Ballot Races are. Are other races that should be front and center in arizona . As donald trump said, it is a states right issue, which is baloney, but in this case . Every legislator in arizona is on the ballot in november. This Ballot Measure will be on the ballot. We have congressional races that can potentially flip and make a difference in congress. While we are fighting this battle in the states right now, it is imperative that we protect abortion at the National Level and we are going to need a congress and senate that is willing to do that. Governor katie hobbs, such an important issue. A lot happening in your state. I really appreciate you making time to join me this evening. Still to come, why wont south dakota governor kristi noem Let Sleeping Dogs Lie . She just cant stop digging. When we say itll be on time, they expect it to be on time. Turn shipping to your advantage. Keep those expectations with reliable ground shipping. Thanks brandon. With usps ground advantage®. Nexium 24hr prevents Heartburn Acid for twice as long as pepcid. Get allday and allnight Heartburn Acid prevention with just one pill a day. Choose acid prevention. Choose nexium. One in five Children Worldwide are faced with the reality of living without food, no family dinners, no special treats, not enough energy to play. 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If that was not bizarre and honestly pretty disturbing enough, part of her cleanup effort this past week has involved quite an evolution of her description of poor cricket the dog, may she rest in peace of course. Lets start without noem described this innocent 14 month old puppy and an excerpt of her own book obtained by reporters. According to noem she took the dog for a walk. A 14monthold puppy, thats what they do. On the way home, noem writes cricket jumped out of the truck at a Neighbors House and excitedly killed her chickens and she said wheeled around as she might bite noem. It is unfortunate, but what do you do in response . What did kristi noem do in response . As we know she took her to a gravel pit and shot her. A pretty extreme reaction to an excitable puppy. After a fair amount of dog loving criticism, noem began to alter her description of cricket. Two days after the story she came out and posted a tweet saying, quote, given that cricket had shown aggressive behavior to people by biting them, i decided what i did. Okay. Fast forward to last night and noem revised her Book Manuscript again, this time on fox news, with a little editing help from none other than sean hannity. This was a working dog and it was not a puppy. It was a dog that was extremely dangerous. It had come to us from a family that found her way to aggressive. We were her Second Chance and the day she was put down was the day that she massacred livestock that were part of our neighbors. She attacked me. I was shocked when we learned joe biden has a German Shepherd that when all was said and done, 24 secret Service Agents were bitten by a German Shepherd. A big dog. In that particular case, if somebody is biting people, in large numbers like that, it is the sad thing to do, but at some point doesnt it become the responsible thing for the safety of others that you dont allow a dog at least around anyone else, at the very least . Heres the thing, joe biden didnt shoot his dog when it but some people. Thats not what you do. And to go back to the kristi noem point, in the span of five days the puppy who was described as out of her mind with excitement, all of a sudden became a dangerous and aggressive dog who massacred livestock. That is quite an evolution of a description. Now if you are thinking like most people out there, that is crazy, no one would defend that or believe noem is evolving description of a happy puppy into a modernday keller to joe, you would be mistaken. The only thing i can see in her defense is at least she didnt eat the dog, like president hussein obama. She shot the dog, obama ate it. Whats worse . 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Protesters were arrested at Dartmouth College in New Hampshire last night and this morning, bringing the total number of arrests to 2100 in the past two weeks. Amid all of this, President Biden gave brief marks on the posttest this morning, stressing the need for them to remain peaceful. We are not an authoritarian nation where we sentence people or squash dissent. The American People are heard. In fact, peaceful protest is in the best tradition of how americans respond to consequential issues. But, but, neither are we a long this country. We are a Civil Society and order must prevail. Joining me now, cameron, and opinion editor for the washington post, tim miller, former spokesperson for the rnc, no writer at large for the bull work. Lets start with you. Theres a lot of factors at play here. Theres a war, there are hostages still being held, Tens Of Thousands of people have died in gaza in theres a lot of important discussions to have. I think it is important to discuss the impact on this country. How are you, how do you assess the impact, the political impact as we look to the president ial race . It is my hope that students are this to and and plugged into Foreign Policy and a foreign war that is not directly affecting a lot of the folks we see protesting. Of course, many people across the country have unfortunately lost Family Members in gaza because of what is going on with israel and they are holding President Biden directly accountable. People are expected there will be similar protests at the convention in chicago this summer, which is closer to the election. What is striking is how much some people have sustained this energy since october 7th and really focusing on and educating themselves about what is going on in gaza, the palestinians are being treated, and educating themselves about the foreign aid to israel and what this means for Different Companies or universities they engage with. It becomes a moral issue for them when we talk about it as a political issue and i think that is what is difficult to capture in polling questions. They might not be responding to polls and even of the car, they are not necessarily saying how they vote and what is important to them and what is not. This is obviously much bigger than politics. Theres raising investment some, that is an issue on College Campuses as well and none of these protests are monolithic, nor are what they are talking about monolithic. What is interesting to me is that there was a lot of things about this but, cornell, the National Harvard youth paul, a very good call, they found that President Biden beats trump among registered voters under 30 years old by 50 to 37 . He needs to win by more than that, i think it is fair to say. It also found that just over half of respondents support a ceasefire in the israel hamas war. That is not the most important issue to them. I raise this because if you are the Biden Campaign, you have to be thinking about what is on the minds of the voters and the groups you are targeting. To these voters in this poll, economic concerns, inflation, health care, the Economy Worktop and print of center for them. Do you think that people arent responding and how do you think the campaign should be thinking about what the factors are with the need to turn out the youth vote . Especially going into the last Midterm Election where it was the economy top of mind issue, there are multiple variables on how people decide to vote. Too often in the medium, we look at what is the top issue. Lets just talk about that issue. Abortion is often lower down. There is a difference between top issue concerning as the boat driver and mobilizer. Reproductive rights was a mobilizer and continues to be. It is tragic, but the Terrorist Attack on israel and the israelis who died in that and also it is tragic the palestinians caught in the crossfire in that and young people, as they will do, have every right to protest. It is really interesting the president brought up their right to protest because in a certain way, that is a contrast to what donald trump talked about, rounding up protesters. I think that was an important contrast. From a political standpoint, in the nbc, ina company guy, the nbc focus groups that they did among independent Younger Voters in wisconsin, also showed a similar thing that the harvard poll showed him that was least independent Younger Voters think this is an important issue, being very concerned by this issue, but also understanding there were other issues and not seeing a contrast. It is always about do you have an advantage and a contrast . What was important here is they did not want to beat up on writing for his stance on this because i didnt see trump as better. They didnt, in many ways, they thought trump would be worse. It is not a political plus as a contrast on this issue. They didnt see a very big difference between them, which, to me, is a very startling on this issue. Tim miller, let me ask, this is a broad question. You worked for jeb bush, you are a republican, former republican, how do you look at these campus protests, the israel hamas war, how this is all laying out, particularly with independence and with young voters . I do have some concerns about it. I think there are a lot of people in the group we focus on, which are in the gettable former republicans, the suburban republicans joe biden has done well with, nikki haley voters, we spend a lot of time talking about them. A lot of them are turned off by the protests. They are turned off by the fact that it seems to be unilaterally targeted at protesting israel and that there is an antisemitic undertone sometimes to from the river to the sea to glory to the martyrs, that is turning off some gettable voters for joe biden so hes losing voters on both sides of this, if you have young voters upset hes not doing more for the humanitarian crisis in gaza, which is legitimate, losing some altitude there and also on the other kind of opposite end of his coalition potentially losing. I think that is why he came out and spoke this morning, to strike a balanced tone. As far as young voters are concerned, i would caution that im not quite as panicked as may be some on the left feel like they are on this. You look at the harvard poll, biden had 56 among likely voters 18 to 29. He only got 60 last time. That is down a little bit but that is much smaller than it makes it seem on the top level and a big part of this is there has been this big change in our politics from the obama years. Back then, it was the least likely voters tended to be pro obama and antirepublican. Now it is flipped. The most likely voters are pro democrat into the least likely voters are very suspect of joe biden or maybe rfk junior interested for cornell west or trump in certain cases. It is a different type of young voters that democrats are targeting this time around but i think if you look at the likely voter numbers, its not quite as alarming as may be the top line number was. That was so interesting, go ahead. I dont want to poke a hole in anyones bubble. If you look at this harvard use poll among voters who said they would support biden, 56 of them are unenthusiastic, 68 of those who are going to vote for trump are enthusiastic. That is worrisome to people who want joe biden to win because, as you were saying, the top issue doesnt necessarily mean that is the motivating factor. Trump could do or Say Something insane between now and november that would change the motivating factors. If you are already not enthusiastic about joe biden and you are saying you are going to vote for him, who knows how strong that is. That is the thing, that is a fair point. I want to go back to tims point about the numbers and go back to what is happening on elections. It is not as though trump is picking up support. What did he get among young voters in the past two elections . Got roughly 36 of those voters. Where is he at . Is that 37 right now. Its not like hes benefiting from that. To me, the number one challenge for the Biden Campaign or these Younger Voters. If you look at where hes most off of his 2020 performance, it is among Younger Voters of color, which are disproportionately Younger Voters. One of the challenges, having messaged a lot of campaigns, only a minute left, make it good. What should people be saying about the contrast to young voters to make it clear . You know this and tim knows this very well. But we political hacks know this very well that on the end, do you have a good story to tell . If you look at the Environmental Issues that biden has pushed for, if you look at some of the infrastructure, if you look at, look at college loans, look at the issues most important to young voters. In some ways he has a better story to tell these young voters than barack obama did in 2012. Im going to get in trouble for saying that. I love the disagreement. That is good. I welcome it. Alexi mccammond, Cornell Belcher, tim miller, thank you all so much for joining me this evening. Really appreciate it. That does it for me tonight. Chris hayes will be back in the chair tomorrow, of course. Alex wagner tonight starts right now. Hi, alex. I feel like the conversation around young voters is one of the most elusive things to pin down. The polling is all over the place. But, it seems like a problem, right . The degree to which it is a problem is exactly unclear but it seems like an issue that needs to be addressed. So important and the points that Cornell Belcher and Alexi Mccammond and tim miller raised his you dont capture every issue