Transcripts For MSNBCW Velshi 20240703

Of a very busy newsweek for the president and his attorneys. At. Trumps week began with Opening Statements on monday in his criminal trial in new york which was followed by the prosecution calling its first witness. David pecker, over the course of four days he testified about crucial 2015 meeting between himself, trump and trumps then personal lawyer michael cohen. Prosecutors allege that it was at that meeting that the trio hashed out a plan to help trumps political chances by suppressing potentially scandalous stories about him. That strategy came to be known as catch and kill. Now it may not seem like there are any similarities between trumps criminal trial in new york and the fake elector scheme but for one thing both involve the falsification of documents or records. On top of that both cases allege the former president worked with others in addition to a crime. 16 people in michigan were charged with felonies last year for their roles in the fake elector effort. Six others in nevada have been similarly charged. In Georgia Last Summer the Fulton County District Attorney pressed racketeering charges against trump and 18 others. That is a charge that is typically used to take down organized crime. Four of those defendants have since reached Plea Agreements with prosecutors. Fulton county is the only one but that case is bogged down. Fulton county and arizona are the two jurisdictions pursuing charges against allies who were close to trump and the indictments are worth reading or listening to if you havent yet. The Fulton County indictment lists 161 instances that prosecutors describe as quote, over acts in furtherance of the conspiracy. This is important. Meanwhile the arizona indictment provides Additional Details thas give a fuller picture of trumps legal teams, multistate effort subvert democracy in 2020. Georgias indictment mentions a man named greg who was then Executive Director of the Arizona Republican party. He is now one of the 18 defendants in arizona accused of helping to organize the meeting and serving as a fake elector himself. Similarly the indictment lays out the extensive Pressure Campaign to coerce this man rusty who was then the speaker of the Arizona House of representatives to call a Special Session to unlawfully appoint the trump electors. Soon after the election he said he was quote getting hundreds of emails demanding that i do my constitutional duty and name electors that will vote for trump, end quote. The arizona indictment also alleges in the weeks after the election no fewer than six of the defendants contacted him either privately or publicly on social media to get him to cooperate. Georgias indictment completes that picture. It adds that trump was also part of that Pressure Campaign. He called him at least twice during that same time frame including once on or around Christmas Day to try to get him on board with this unlawful plan. He however told the president i voted for you, i worked for you, i campaigned for you, i just wont do anything illegal for you. Joining me now, jill, former Assistant Water Gate Special Prosecutor and cohost of the sisterinlaws podcast. Charles coleman is a former prosecutor in brook win will, new york, a Civil Rights Attorney T Host of the Charles Coleman podcast. They will both legal analysts and you will often see charles in here because otherwise i would never be able to get out on the road. Thank you to you friends for being with us. Jill, let me start with this concept of i want to talk about the georgia case for a second. There were these 161 incidents instances in that charge in which it says this act was done in the furtherance of the conspiracy. This is important because the individual things that happened in michigan or in arizona or in pennsylvania or in wisconsin may not have looked like an effort completely overturn election but it becomes clearer and clearer with each passing week that there was actually a plan to overturn election and that trump allies and lawyers were intimately involved in it. It is all a very important to keep in mind, i think you use the word the web of crimes. That is what all of these confine show. The sum tote of the individual parts is much greater than anyone of the individual parts. There is a real picture that the American Voter should be getting from all of these indictments about how widespread the attempt to take down election was. Of how close we came to losing our votes from not having them counted, from having a coup from maybe lawful means. Actually, they arent even close to lawful. Let me take that back. Didnt mean to say it. It is not true. These were totally illegal means and all of them come together. We are going to really have a great revelation when all of these cases finally get trial assuming the Supreme Court doesnt dilly dallasy too much longer. Right. In arizona Donald Trumps immunity doesnt apply. Lets talk about this and i think jill makes an important point. We will have some revelations. What one of the ones hi is i thought after the election of 2020 that it was a bunch of disorganized bumbling fools who might have overturned the election if they could have but really didnt have the capabilities. Now everything i see shows how organized this was. This started as a maybe we will win a an audit or a case somewhere and then we will be prepared to move forward with the trump presidency. That wasnt what this was. This is an actually lets deceive people into saying that donald trump won the electoral votes. Lets send thoseal documents to the archives and congress. This is much more serious thanth it looked like at first blush. You are absolutely right. One fortunately what the work of thehe prosecutors across the country has revealed is this very large conspiracy to overturn the election. I know that sounds like something we have heard before but when you understand the interconnectivity of each of these parts that jill was discussing you get a sense of how wide and how far they were prepared to go in their efforts here. When you talk about what is unearthed, what i find interesting even though this is a legal conversation it really should be a very illuminating for the electorate. When you are looking at this huge scheme that expands throughout the entire nation, you have to understand what that means for who he was as a candidate. If there is any area that this should be an enlightment it should be for the electorate. Goes back to the ninth jill made about we will find this very illuminating, we will see some revelations. I think more importantly but differently than the courts and the legal system coming to these revelations, what has to happena for americans to understand now in many cases the same group of people or at least there are duplicates of these people charged in various places. This was all a real thing. This is not random prosecutors around the country going rogue. They all have the same evidence, the same texts, the same phone calls, the same recordings and the same testimony. The real problem is that there is a group of people in america who refuse to understand and see and accept facts. The things alleged in all of these indictments are facts. There are as you mentioned there are texts, emails, phone calls. Those are evidence. They are facts. There is a group of people who are loyal to trump who simply refuse to accept that. I do believe that jurors will accept it. Then i think that voters will be swayed by the fact that there will be convictions. All of this depends on getting these cases to trial in time for it to be something that cant influence how voters perceive the two candidates. Or at least this one candidate. I think we have to just go back to these cases have to go to trial. The evidence coming out of the new york trial is very strong and is being put together in a way this build as frame work that will be filled in with details and with corroboration from documents. That will lead a jury charged with the responsibility of voting for guilt or innocence based on the everyday in that courtroom, not on their preconceived notions. Jurors take that charm very, very seriously. We have had a maga juror in the case who said i love donald trump, i love him but i had to vote on the evidence and that any vote to convict on all counts. Im hoping the same will be true in the new york jury and any future juries. Charles, the judge in nevada said the six people charged in that state, that trial is not going to happen till january of 2025. I dont know whether whateverow the Supreme Court does has an influence on what goes on in the cases in michigan and in arizona where donald trump is he is an unnamed coconspirator. Does his immunity have any effect on the cases for which he is not named . It doesnt. It doesnt really affect him in that respect because he is not charged. I think that is one of the things that being unindicted coconspirator affords you in terms of the protection that is given by that designation. It hasgi less to do with his Immunity Status as part of the Supreme Court and more to cowith the fact that for various reasons prosecutors chose in those cases not to indict him. Is one of those reasons the fact that those cases can go forward regardless of what the Supreme Court decides . Well, that is part of it. I think when talking about coconspirator who is unindicted there are various reasons not do that. You might be looking to flip someone or get additional information. That wont be the case here. No one is expecting donald trump to flip on his coconspirators although it would not be surprising in this world at that point. I think that part of the strategy here that prosecutors have employed you are right. They want to make sure that regardless of what happens with him, regardless of whether he ascends to 1600 pennsylvania again as the commander in chief, whether he is granted president ial immunity by the Supreme Court, that their prosecution and preserving the integrity of these cases remains checked. I got to ask you what the spin today. Well, you have made two references. You said it was a busy week and that there was some bumbling going on. It is a busy bee. It hasit been a very, very busy week. If uh could just add unindicted Cocon Spiriter is a big advantage to the prosecutor because anything that donald trump says or said can be used against his coconspirators because that is the law. If you are a coconspirator your statements are admissible against everybody and we named nixon an unindicted coconspirator because theat Special Prosecutor would not let us indict him despite the evidence but agreed we could give a road map to impeachment to the Judiciary Committee that he felt that impeachment was a better solution for the sitting president. That wasnt true once he resigned and was an ordinary citizen. Things on that is. He should have been indicted then. Thank you to both of you. Wonderful seeing you both. Charles coleman jr. Is a former prosecutor in brooklyn new york. She the host of the Charles Coleman podcast. They will both msnbc legal analysts and great friends of this show. Still aheadily continue ouru discussion about free speech with two authors who remove their novels from the awards over the organizations messaging about the war in gaza. Donte miss the rest of this conversation. First Donald Trumps possible plan to do away with the independence of the nonpartisan Federal Reserve should raise alarm bells for every american. If elect head could have unprecedented power to ma nip late this economy. You are watching velshi. Late this economy. You are watching velshi. But with prilosec otc just one pill a day ed he could have unprecedented power to ma nip late this economy. You are watching velshi. This economy. You are watching velshi. For one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. One pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. Liberty mutual customized my Car Insurance and i saved hundreds. Thats great. I know, ive bee telling everyone. Baby liberty. Oh baby liberty. How many people did you tell . Only pay for what you need. Jingle liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Baby liberty. try Dietary Supplements from voltaren, for healthy joints. Ma, ma, ma clears throat for fast sore throat relief, try Vicks Vapocool drops. With two times more menthol per drop, and powerful vicks vapors to vaporize sore throat pain. Vicks vapocool drops. Vaporize sore throat pain. When others divide. We unite. With Real Solutions to help our kids. Like community schools. Neighborhood hubs that provide everything from Mental Health services to food pantries. Academic tutoring to prom dresses. Healthcare to after care. Community schools can wrap so much around public schools. And through meaningful partnerships with families, they become centers of their communities. Real solutions for kids and communities at aft. Org in this incredibly busy news cycle some stories fall by the wayside. Here is one i want you to know about. There are more than 150 Central Banks throughout the world that are responsible for executing Monetary Policy and controlling their respective countrys money supply. Here in america we have the Federal Reserve more commonly known as the fed. Beyond handling Monetary Policy its main duties involving supervising regulating banks, providing Banking Services and providing the Financial Stability of the country. The fed is made up of 12 regional Federal Reserve banks each of which is responsible for a specific pa rt of the country. While the chairperson and the vice chair of the Federal Reserve are nominated by the president and confirmed by the senate the fed operates completely independently of the federal government. Meaning the policies and strategies employed by the fed are not subject to governmental over sight. Without that degree of autonomy the fed could be influenced by politicians whose goal is to win an election or consolidate power. Enter donald trump. Yesterday the Wall Street Journal reported that trumps advisors are quietly crafting proposals that would give him unprecedented power to erode the Federal Reserves independence if he gets back into the white house. That plan is reportedly part of a roughly 10 page document that outlines his Policy Vision for the fed. Among the proposed provisions in the document is one that if elected would make Trump An Acting Federal Reserve board member who would be consulted on Interest Rate decisions. The journal also said that according to people familiar with the matter the policies would give trump quote the aught toy oust Jerome Powell as fed chair before his four year term ends in 2026. In fact quote, some of the former president s advisors have discussed requiring that candidates for fed chair privately agree to consult informally with trump on the Central Banks decisions. The Wall Street Journal was unable to determine whether donald trump is aware of or signed off on this plan. After a quick break i will discuss this with diane, the Chief Economist for kpmg. H diane, the Chief Economist for kpmg ok yall we got ten orders coming in. Big orders starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant. Thats a different story. I couldnt slow down. We were starting a business from the ground up. People were showing up left and right. And so did our business needs. The chase ink card made it easy. When you go for Something Big like this, your kids see that. And they believe they can do the same. Earn unlimited 1. 5 cash back on every purchase with the chase Ink Business Unlimited Card from chase for business. Make more of whats yours. The virus that causes shingles is sleeping. In 99 of people over 50. And it could strike at any time. Think youre not at risk . Wake up. Because shingles could wake up in you. If youre over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. Its time. 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Before the break i told you about new Wall Street Journal report that lays out how a team of trump allies are outlining new policy that would give him new power if elected to greatly affect Monetary Policy in the United States and eroad to independence of the Federal Reserve. For more on this im joined by diane. Her role, diane regularly briefs the Federal Reserve banks it ands Board Of Governors in washington d. C. She has served as an advisor to the National Economic council. I dont want to spend quality time talking about this t whole time but i did want to discuss for it a moment. I dont think everybody spends a lot of time thinking about the fed but it is an important point that the fed chair is not directly answerable to the president of the United States. They even have staggered terms and things like that. How important is it we think about the fact that that could change . I think it is very important and it is history is littered with examples of Central Banks that have been over taken by leaders. They are not happy with Interest Rates and there is no shortage of them in our own history in the United States. In fact arthur burns who was appointed by the Nixon Administration in part because he was seen as a loyalist to the Nixon Administration although he had to have his arm turned on that point made a very famous speech that then became sort of god spell for the overall central bank in the u. S. , the Federal Reserve and Central Banks everywhere called the anguish Central Banking. In that speech he laid out the incredible risk of trying to lower Interest Rates for the sake of using employment or reducing the Unemployment Rate when inflation in the and the battle against inflation had not been won. It was part of what led to the stagflation of the 1970s and in the speech he laid out his own mistakes and it has become a cardinal Central Banking to do just that. To do for political gain any gain you get by lowering Interest Rates to lower Unemployment Rate is quickly reversed because inflation erodes it away. Is there any good side to the government being more involved in the fed . I see amongst Conspiracy Theorists lots of conversations. It is not true but is there any argument for more governmental control than the u. S. Government has over the Federal Reserve at the moment . Well the Federal Reserve does answer to congress and that is something that is important as well and congress could change their mandate. The idea that we have a 2 Inflation Target is not a law. The idea that we have sort of very loose guidelines on what the fed does is part of what is guiding the fed at the moment and that could be changed by congress. So if they wanted to have more er sight there are areas that they could do that. Most countries have gone towards more rural based kind of look at their Central Banks so the Central Banks are even more independent in terms of the political pressures. What is best for everyone is for inflation to get down and the Federal Reserve to do its job. Doing that within the least amount of consequences for unemployment as possible. So lets look at this environment that we are in. There may be some americans who would say we would like Interest Rates to be lower and Mortgage Rates to be lower and like the fed to lead that effort by lowering Interest Rates. You have j powell saying we have not sure we have our handle on inflation as hutch as much as we would like to right now. That is its own discussion. I like your view on what do you think is going to happen to Interest Rates . What is the consequence of having political motivations . Is it posable president could say just lower the Interest Rates, buddy, i need win an election . Well, it has happened like i said in the 1970s and that ended up with some disastrous outcomes. It could happen. It is not unusual to have president s be very angry with their head of their central bank. Paul was also not exactly liked for his push back on deregulation of the banking industry. This is nothing new. Even allen who is thought to be a lackey ended up being more much independent than many of president s he worked for thought he would be. I think it is really important that we push back on that idea and we really want to get at the end of the day yes it would be lovely to have 2019 prices and 2024 wages, lets face it we would all love that. That is not a reality now. What we would like to do is get inflation down and it is the feds job to do that and unfortunately it looks like they will have to do that by holding rates higher for longer but the threshold to raise rates is much higher than it is to cut rates. The fed does think they are at a peak in rates. They will discuss the idea of having to raise rates again. I thisty next movement in rates will be down unfortunately not till much later this year. We are probably only going to get one cut by the end of the year. One as opposed to the three we have been looking for. We have seen the reaction in markets. A lot of people have been watching their 401 k s and the stock market do very well. How consequential is it we may not see an Interest Rate cut till much later in the year . I think it is really important in the extent that the easing of financial conditions we saw when the Financial Markets were going crazy thinking we would get up to eight cuts at one point in time from the Federal Reserve at the turn of 2023 and early 2024, that did lower Mortgage Rates and it did rekindle the dry tinder in the Housing Market and home values started to pick back up again very rapidly. It illustrates how much the fed needs the bond market to work with it. Although it is not pleasant, the bottom line is if we can continue to slowly erode inflation without a major increase in unemployment which i think is very possible that is the best path. Diane, i knew i had the right person to talk to about this. Thank you for joining us on the show. Well every now and then we get to report some good news. Coming up next an update to a story we first told you about last weekend. You wont want to miss this. More velshi in a moment. O miss this. More velshi in a moment. 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Individual results and recovery times vary. Risks of surgery include pain, infection, heart attack, stroke, death, and other serious risks. Ask your doctor for important safety information. [camera shutter] to find a doctor who uses mako visit makocan. Com we have some good news to share about one of our recent guests on the Velshi Ban Book Club. Last weekend you will remember i was joined by malik. She an activist and an author for preteen called the best at it. We initially spoke to him ten months ago about the book and the way it was banned in multiple states for its portrayal of a young gay indian boy. Last week we spoke to him after he faced an entirely new type of censorship. Earlier this month he was scheduled to speak at an antibullying assembly at a Middle School in pennsylvania. The local school board suddenly voted to cancel the event citing his quote, lifestyle, end quote. Here is what he had to say about their decision. I think it is fascinating that this video was caught because you hear that the school board is actually making a vote on something that they are not familiar with. These people are sitting at these chairs debating ideas when we know that i am the chair of and cofounder of an anti bullying nonprofit. Right like you think that is something we can all get behind, right . Right. Where is the poll digs in that . We are getting reports that incidents of bullying are up. We know through organizations like the Trevor Project that lgbtq teens are more likely to attempt suicide. These are not ideas. Kids need representation. They need the mirror of seeing themselves in a book and that is all i do when i go into schools is give them an opportunity to see themselves and Build Empathy . Give them the opportunity to see themselves and Build Empathy. After intense backlash on wednesday the Cumberland Valley School District reversed its decision and reinstated his antibullying event. I for one am glad that the Velshi Ban Book Club was able to play a small part in this vikt froi free speech. He will be back with us once more tomorrow morning with his reaction to this good news. More velshi right after this break. D news more velshi right after this break. Ma, ma, ma clears throat for fast sore throat relief, try Vicks Vapocool drops. With two times more menthol per drop, and powerful vicks vapors to vaporize sore throat pain. Vicks vapocool drops. Vaporize sore throat pain. Sara federico at st. Jude, we dont care who cures cancer. We just need to advance the cure. The heart of st. Jude is to take care of children with catastrophic diseases and to advance their cure rates. But we need to be able to do that for everyone. Its a bold initiative, to try and bump cure rates all around the world. But we should. It is our commitment. 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Got a whole lot of banned book club for you day. Last hour i outlined the months long controversy and conflict between pan america a nonprofit dedicated to people of expression and some of its members including authors and staffers over their response to the war in gaza. Some say they have not gone far enough defending writers in gaza or in condemning civilian casualties at the hands of the Israeli Military. Around 30 of the 87 nominees for the Literary Awards with drew from consideration. The nominees wrote an opened letter explaining their decision. It reads in part, pens statements and actions and often the lack there of demonstrate not only an immoral reliance on corporate dollars but also serious deficit of writerly courage. The core of the mission is to support the right to disagree. Among writers of conscious there is no disagreement. There is fact and fiction. The fact is that israel is leading a genocide of the palestinian people. The normalizing is a betrayal. End quote. Last hour i spoke to her. Here is what she had to say. In the early days of the conflict we were standing in solidarity. We wanted to make those general expressions and then from that time on we really made the commitment we will focus specifically on the Free Expression angles of this. We are not a humanitarian organization. We are not an organization that really has expertise on issues of conflict. We strived since then to stick to our lane decrying infringements of freedom of speech, on what is happening to writers inside gaza. We call ed out the government of israel many times we also do look at the complexity of this situation. We dont view it through a single lens. We are by design a big tent organization. The Literary Awards scheduled for this monday are cancelled. Just yesterday they announced the cancelation of its world voices festival. While this is not a story that is so easily surmised in a few sentences or with just one or two exams, at the center of the continue controversy is a question of what free speech looks like in america. I have two authors who with drew their work at the awards. Hasaan is the author of dear born. James is the author of idle wild. The story of two adults reflecting on their friendship as queer teens in manhattan. I want to thank both of you for joining me. I want to clarify neither of these books has been banned as far as i know just yet but this is america in 2024 so perhaps as we are speaking they are being banned. You here for some other reason and i welcome you both. Let me start with you. I want to get your reaction to what she said in the last hour. It is a big tent oh organization, not humanitarian group and that since the initial criticism they have leaned into the protection or the criticism of israel in terms of the protection of writers, poets and authors. What is your reaction to what she had to say . Well, first of all thank you so much for having me and i am glad to be here and to share this space with james as well. Just clarification the sound bit you just aired she said israels hit rick against journalist Social Security an assassination of journalists. There are over 100 journalists who have been assassinated by the Israeli Military and also you have academics who have been assassinated. You have universities who have been destroyed, hospitals have been destroyed. So i think when it is framed in such a way where the rhetoric against journalists, now it plays into what is going on in the west bank and the terrible atrocities occurring against palestinian people. So i think the way that susan phrased it was more a debate about free speech when this is actually a genocide that is happening and we have to confront it and try to stop it and try to save palestinians lives. James, what is your take . I agree with everything he said. Im happy oh the see him and happy to be here with you. I just think it is obscene to frame any of this as a question of free speech in america. I mean, the around what is happening in gaza is a genocide and to avoid that word is i can only see it as an intentional avoidance of the truth. What she said about staying in about the pen organization staying in its lane, i mean its Mission Statement if you look at the website says it stands at the intersection of literature and human rights. There is a World Historical Human Rights Violation happening in gaza right now. Pen has a very consistent track record of supporting writers who are oppressed in other countries and for them to not even acknowledge the scale of what is happening and the eve and i evil and enormity of what is happening feels so sketchy. What is the degree of sentiment among its writers . I know you are not an organizer of it so maybe you dont know. What is the sense of i sort of get it that maybe pen did handle this as they could have in the beginning but you think that the mission is right. Door you think that pen has gone off the rails in terms of its mission . I think they have gone off the rails in terms of their mission. It is clear. It is clear in their messaging. What james just eluded to, the failure to kind of recognize the atrocities going on in gaza. It wasnt until march, maybe march 24th and like five months into the genocide that actually the Organization Called for a ceasefire. I just want to point out that pen america, i mean the pen organization is an international organization. They have other chapters across the world. Those other chapters including the one in south africa were fighting on behalf of the palestinians rights. We are talking about pen america. There are other chapters who have spoken out against atrocities going on. She said that they are a big tent organization and that not everybody is going to think the same way. Lets get out of the Free Speech Lane for a second and talk about writers will think about things differently. How do you think about that as somebody who was a nominee for a pen award that you might be nominated alongside somebody who looks at the Israeli Gaza Situation and doesnt see it the way you do . How do you reconcile that . I see where you are coming from. There are multiple sides to any situation but the fact of the matter is we could play that game for about so many things. I dont think pen america would agree it is a good use of anyones time to debate on whether the sky is blue or whether it is currently raining outside. Somethings are simply not up for debate and i was so deeply disturbed to see Pen America Frame the genocide and gaza as something that writers could respectfully disagree on. I just dont think that is something that is up for debate. I think there are somethings that are not within the realm of friendly disagree. I think it is obscene to distract from the atrocities and horrors happening in gaza by just falling into this strange abstract intellectual discussion that is so far removed and so alienated from the violence and the horror and anyone who can see this and deny that is what is happening is someone not operating in good faith. What does success look for like for you for either pen america or organizations who are supposed to be a place of solidarity for writers and represent the freedom of expression and safety for writers and journalists and poets and authors . It is to do it through the actions. That is the thing there are a lot of other organizations who have shown solidarity with palestinians. I dont think pen america has done enough to highlight what is going on and try to protect basic human rights in gaza and in the west bank. It is a matter of actually putting things into action and obviously they havent been doing that. Now some organizations as we were talking about earlier 92y, the Frank Fort Book Festival went further. They had forms in which they had palestinian writers who people who expressed sentiments towards palestinians and cancelled them. She said pen didnt get involved and was very critical of that in the beginning. Are you thinking there is space for a reconciliation between authors like you and pen to say here is what we have learned from this, here is how we move forward in. I think it is worth pointing out the actions of the authors who have boycotted the organization and pulled out of the festival and the awards, these actions are already having an effect. They cancelled both events. Yeah and they have diverted some of the prize money to gaza relief. I think this is a really exciting example of how collective action and indeed writers expressing themselves and expressing their consciousnesses can have a material impact. Pen has released some statements that they had not made before in response to this out cry. So, you know, i think writers have to keep expressing themselves and doim doing what they have been doing. I think expressions and the protest to draw attention to the genocide is having an affect and needs to keep happening. I hope pen continues to listen and i think that she ought to listen to. How about for you . The progress that james is talking about, the steps that pen is taking. Do they go any distance in satisfying you . I mean there is still there is still a lot more work they have to do, you know . And i want to say james and i withdrawing from the pen awards is part of a line of resistance that writers have shown against the organization. Back in march there was a letter signed by many popular writers and they were pulling their names from the pen worlds voices festival which just got cancelled, too. So it is still i dont think we can let our guard down tell we see again concrete steps that the organization is taking and i think they really have to look inward from top down see to kind of reassess their messaging. I dont think all members of pen america i think some people do want change but really i think the leadership really has to look inward and see how they can actually improve the situation. James, what the r are you finding in the Literary Community . They are realizing there is in network of writers who have strong beleefs about things. Tell me how this has affected you in. I found it to be once you get to talking to people pretty unanimous. Everybody feels the same way. I have not encountered another writer who is not horrified by this. And is not hoping on some level for her to step down because she has handled this so poorly. I think that the only reason it took as long as it did for a Critical Mass of writers to withdraw was that people were scared and they were worried a about their careers. I think it is so amazing to see people listening to their tell me about that. You are young. I am not as young as i look. Im 37. For me that is very young. Tell me about tell me about whether you are you concerned about the effect these things have on your careers . This is new to me. Of course i would be lying if i denied caring about my career at all. Of course i care about my career. I thought about that a lot before i decided to withdraw. The fact of the matter is i knew that i would not be able to live with myself if i were publicly affiliated with this organization that i feel so disgusted by. You know, nobody will remember i think in the long run who won what award but i will always know what the decision i made during this critical moment in history and the conscious is forever and i knew what would help me sleep at night and my sleep is important to me and feeling good about myself, myself respect is important to me. I think when you talk to most writers they do feel the same way. If writers are feeling shame about being affiliated with an organization they feel disgusted by, that is an emotion that is important to listen to. You are the one who has to live with yourself inside your body. We will remember this as your first time on tv. Thank you to both of you to being here. We appreciate it. We will be right back. Appreciate it we will be right back. [stomach growling] its nothing. Sounds like something. 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When others divide. We unite. With Real Solutions to help our kids. Like community schools. Neighborhood hubs that provide everything from Mental Health services to food pantries. Academic tutoring to prom dresses. Healthcare to after care. Community schools can wrap so much around public schools. And through meaningful partnerships with families, they become centers of their communities. Real solutions for kids and communities at aft. Org that was a lot of so before i go, i have a good husband. My new book small acts of current, a legacy of endurance in the fight for democracy, is coming out. Im heading to several cities to discuss it, The Book Tour kicked off with a lunch in philadelphia on may 7th. I will be in washington, d. C. On may 8th and baltimore on may 9th. We are just giving you a handful at a time. We will keep you posted on all of it on social media. You can find me on formerly twitter, instagram, linked in, post news and mastodon. Thank you for watching. Cat 3 back here tomorrow morning from 10 00 a. M. To noon eastern. Velshi is available as a podcast, you can follow and listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Stay right where you are. The Katie Phang Show begins right now. Im katie phang, live from washington, d. C. Heres the week that was. In arizona, lawmaker