Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240703

Eastern. Sunday night, you can see the new feature documentary commitment to life. It takes a look back at the fight against hiv aids in los angeles and the community that changed the course of the epidemic. That is not 00 p. M. Eastern here on msnbc, also streaming on peacock. That is tonight last word. The 11th hour with Stephanie Ruhle starts right now. Tonight, new witnesses in Donald Trumps new york trial. Trumps longtime Personal Assistant and Michael Cohen baker take the stand as the first week of testimony comes to an end. Protests over the war in gaza spreading across Americas College campuses. With the growing unrest could mean for president bidens reelection campaign. Plus, from books online to ecommerce giant, how amazon became the retailer with everything, everywhere, all at once as the 11th hour gets underway on this friday night. Good evening, im Jonathan Capehart in for Stephanie Ruhle. We are 193 days away from the election. Today, attorneys for president ial candidate donald trump tried to poke holes in a tabloid publishers sworn testimony. After four days on the stand, david pecker wrapped up his testimony in trumps new york Criminal Trial that he helped the Trump Campaign for coming up true but damaging stories about him. Then, we heard from two more witnesses, a banker and trumps longtime Executive Assistant. Here is Laura Jarrett with more. Reporter tonight, the prosecution closing out the first week of testimony by offering the jury a peek inside the Inner Workings of the Trump Organization. This from one of the people who knows the former president best. The state briefly calling rhona graff, mr. Trumps longtime Executive Assistant to the stand this afternoon. Rhona graff confirming contacts were saved on the companys Computer System for Karen Mcdougal and , an apparent reference to Stormy Daniels. Prosecutors say both women were Shopping Stories of with mr. Trump ahead of the 2016 election, encounters he denies. At the heart of the case, a 130,000. 00 payment Michael Cohen made to daniels so she wouldnt go public and how prosecutors say that payment was disguised. But, rhona graff said no light on that, testifying even though she no longer works for the Trump Organization, the company is in her legal bills. The jury also hearing from gary farro, a former banker at First Republic bank, who helped facilitate the payment from Michael Cohen to daniels. The day began with the defense team seeking to undercut the testimony of david pecker, the former publisher of the national enquirer, and a key witness for prosecutors, testifying at length about how he helped simons people who could have hurt esther trumps election sentence. Mr. Trumps lawyer sought to raise questions about david memory and motives on cross examination. David pecker, defined at one point, saying, i have been truthful to the best of my recollection. The Tabloid Mobile undermining the idea mr. Trump wanted to bury stories about women to protect his family, a common refrain from the defense. Instead, david pecker city was all to protect his campaign. And have to begin by wishing melania happy birthday. She is in florida. Reporter Melania Trump notably absent at trial. Court will not be in session on monday. The trial will resume on tuesday at 9 30 a. M. With that, lets bring in our leadoff panel, john allen, Senior National politics reporter for nbc. Eugene scott, Senior Politics reporter for axios. Thank you all for being here. Trumps former longtime Executive Assistant testified for half an hour, she was known as the gatekeeper and said that a Company Directory had numbers for both Stormy Daniels and Karen Mcdougal. She also said the Trump Organization was paying her legal bills. What did the Prosecution Gain from her testimony . Well, they introduced a small fact, which is that the Stormy Daniels has her Contact Information in the Trump Organization system. One of the reasons why i suspect that that was presented was we are going to see the prosecutors attempt to establish that trump and Stormy Daniels did in fact have an intimate sexual encounter, which trump has tonight and trumps lawyers tonight in the opening statement. I think this is the first piece of evidence. My guess is there will be more evidence along these lines. My guess is the prosecutors want to be able to say to the jurors, at the end of this, you dont have to just take Stormy Daniels word. We presented additional evidence because trump has said she is whining. That to me is the significance of this. Of the prosecutors can establish trump, to the extent prosecutors can establish trump is lying about anything, it is helpful to their case. This is a big point. He has tonight hes had this encounter with her but it appears it did in fact happen. John, Michael Cohens banker was briefly on the stand today. Seems like the prosecution is starting to dig into the records. We are talking dollars and cents. Who sunk what and specific dates on specific documents. How crucial is it that the prosecution nails this part, nails this part so they dont have to worry about whether the jury buys the testimony of say Michael Cohen . It is absolutely crucial. These are very highstakes. The witnesses we are hearing from now are people who, you know, have a greater record of credibility than Michael Cohen, who is going to be the star witness and the one that is easiest for the defense to undermine because he has pleaded guilty in the past to lien. When you see these figures, up, whether it is rhona graff, the gatekeeper to trump world or the anchor for Michael Cohen, and they are testifying to what seemed to be small, pedestrian things, like how Banking Transaction works or whose phone number is in the trump system, all of that is the prosecution laying a predicate for their story, laying out the details for the jury of each little piece and trying to build credibility in their case before they ultimately get to Michael Cohen and they will rely on Michael Cohen as a witness but they are also going to hope that, and try and make an attempt, that you have all of these other pieces stack up outside of what Michael Cohen says and point to what Michael Cohen says so what what he says has greater credibility than Michael Cohen himself. Ankush khardori, lets talk about the order of all of this. The prosecution starts with the blockbuster witness, david pecker. Now they are moving into the nittygritty. What kind of strategy goes into the sequence here . I think it is largely chronological, so far, as i can see it. They are just trying to lay out, tell the story in a simple chronological fashion, the best way to tell a story often is chronologically. But, i think that is what is happening here. I expect at some point, perhaps even next week, they are going to need to start to move into, okay, how are these records, how are these payments booked internally within the Trump Organization. Maybe next week or the following week, at some point, the trial needs to get there. That is the meat and potatoes of the actual charges against trump. Eugene, trump keeps complaining about the trial keeping him off the Campaign Trail and wednesday, when, you know, wednesday was his one day off from court this week, and he went golfing. Obviously, he doesnt want to be in court but is it fair to say he doesnt seem to care that much about campaigning either . It is very difficult to make the argument he is prioritizing getting his message to voters who arent already on board with him. He would use this time, if he was, to try to win over independent voters, swing voters, undecided voters, which, quite frankly, are still a larger percentage of the electorate and some people to communicate. Instead, he has prioritized one of his favorite pastimes, which shouldnt be a huge surprise to anyone paying attention to his presidency. He often went to golf during moments when people thought he could do a better job of connecting with americans who werent really sure that they had as much confidence in his ability to lead the country. John, on the other hand, you have president biden. He has been very busy out on the Campaign Trail. And, hes starting to talk about trumps trial, at least a bit. At one event last night, he says he hasnt had a chance to watch the proceedings because he has been campaigning, he has completely avoided talking about trumps legal trouble. What does it say that that is starting to change . I think that what it says is there are people around him who see Donald Trumps charges that he faces in four separate cases is Donald Trumps greatest memorability and if the Biden Campaign and biden himself are talking about that, they are missing an opportunity to do political damage to donald trump, who, by the way, is making an allegation not supported by facts or not supported by any evidence that biden is using the legal system against him, weaponizing the legal system against him for political gain. Biden is taking that hit but had not been hitting trump on these charges that he faces. We saw in the earlier case, biden played around with this a little bit and said, you know, donald trump might need a loan. I think what is going on here is biden trying to go as far as he can to hit trump on his biggest full ability without going so far as to support the argument that trump is making, that biden is weaponizing the Justice System against him. Eugene, the president sat for an incredibly revealing interview with howard stern this morning. For the first time, said he would be happy, thats a quote, happy to debate donald trump. His campaign had refused to commit to a debate for a while now. So, why say this now, do you think . I think he was getting quite a bit of criticism from those on the right that he was not able to talk about the Policy Issues that matter most to many voters, specifically those outside of his base and that gave trump a leg up and was using that on the Campaign Trail, suggesting the president was fearful of him. I think as we get closer to the election, what biden and his team realized it is going to have to adopt new strategies to communicate to voters why he is superior to the former president and one of the ways you can do that is by being on a stage and going for tat when it comes to Policy Issues. So, we might see this happen sooner than later where they are right now in terms of plans in bringing it to fruition, isnt clear yet. There has been a real shift because we do know this is not something or an approach that the president seemed very interested in taking before now. Anybody who thinks that joe biden doesnt want to debate donald trump doesnt know joe biden. Im just going to put that out there. During the howard stern interview, the president spoke very openly about how much he struggled with the tragic car crash that killed his first wife and oneyearold daughter in 1972. Listen to this. Never drank. I used to sit there and think to myself, im just going to take out a bottle of scotch. We always had liquor in the house, my house as well. I was going to just drink and then get drunk. I could never bring myself to do it. I thought about, you know, you dont have to be crazy to commit suicide. If you been to the top of the mountain, you think its never going to be there again. And, just a moment, i thought i go to the delaware Memorial Bridge and jump. To the incredible, john. The president went on to say he strongly urges anyone who is struggling with their Mental Health to seek help and go to therapy. But, how remarkable is it, john, to hear a president openly talk about contemplating suicide and what does it tell us about Biden The Human Being . It is remarkable is the right word. It might even be an understatement. President s of the United States in the past have never wanted to suggest that they struggled with any Mental Health issue. In the case hes talking about here, he doesnt even think it is a Mental Health issue, given where he had been and what had happened in his life to be in that place of contemplation. But, you know, this is not the kind of thing most candidates would talk about. I also believe it is something that is a unique biden strength and has been a strength for a long time, which is to be able to talk about loss, to be able to talk about pain and tragedy in a way that connects with his fellow americans, that connects with voters who have lost in their lives, who have experienced pain in their lives and the empathy and ability to emote and be so authentic in that moment with howard stern, that is a great strength of joe biden. It is probably not enough on its own to win him reelection but it certainly, when voters look at the candidates and stack them up, joe biden, the empathy they have for him and his ability to have empathy for them is one of those Character Traits that stands out. It is an hour and 15 minutes long, the interview. It is spectacular and how raw and human the president is and funny. As someone who has interviewed the president twice during his presidency, i have to say, howard stern was the best interview ive heard with president biden. Ankush khardori, i want to get back to the new york trial. We are a week into the testimony. How is the prosecution doing so far and what are you watching for in the coming days . The prosecution is doing fine so far. They are laying out, again, the early stages of the story. The catch and kill, Stormy Daniels really did have this relationship. The bankers on the stand talking about the mechanics of the payment, this and that. There is the common metaphor that prosecutors use as they are building a Case Brick By brick. They want a wall of evidence at the end. They are dropping picks. Pieces of evidence in isolation may not seem that fascinating to us but they are building a wall. Whether that leads up to conviction remains to be seen. But, you know, it is hard for me to render any serious verdict on this week because they havent really got to The Main Event yet, which is not just Michael Cohen, whenever he testifies, but also needs to be, theres going to need to be some evidence, ideally, that trump himself was aware the way the payments were booked may have been unlawful. Its not going to be enough to say, the Hush Money Payment is not illegal by itself, nor are all the machinations that Michael Cohen went through to pay her. What is illegal, what is allegedly illegal is how the payments were booked in the Trump Organization and we havent gotten to that yet. That is what im waiting for. If the evidence on that score about trumps knowledge of the legal implications is going to come exclusively from Michael Cohen, that will be a major achilles john, eugene, ankush khardori, thank you for being here tonight. When we come back, Campus Unrest ramping up around the country. We get into the politics of it all during an election year. Later, amazon has worked its way in all of our daily lives. The packages at your doorstep to your doctors office. We take a closer look at its road to domination and how it has changed our economy. The 11th hour just getting underway on a friday night. Ni but this is my story. and with oncedaily trelegy, it can still be beautiful. Because with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy keeps my airways open for a full 24 hours and prevents future flareups. Trelegy also improves lung function, so i can breathe more freely all day and night. Trelegy wont replace a Rescue Inhaler for sudden breathing problems. Tell your doctor if you have a Heart Condition or high Blood Pressure before taking it. Do not take trelegy more than prescribed. Trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. 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In a survey, 92 of current users said they wish theyd talked to their doctor and started botox® sooner. So, ask your doctor if botox® is right for you. Learn how abbvie could help you save on botox®. When i was your age, we never had anything like this. What . Wifi . Wifi that works all over the house, even the basement. The basement. So i can finally throw that party. And invite shannon barnes. Dream do come true. Xfinity gives you reliable wifi with walltowall coverage on all your devices, even when everyone is online. Maybe well even get married one day. I wonder what i will be doing . Probably still living here with mom and dad. Fast reliable speeds right where you need them. Thats walltowall wifi with xfinity. Protests over the war in gaza are spreading across College Campuses nationwide. According to npr, more than 500 demonstrators have been arrested so far. At Emory University in georgia, videos shows Law Enforcement using tear gas, handcuffs, even tasers to detain everyone, from students to professors. It is a demonstration of just how passionate these College Students are about the fate of palestinians suffering in gaza. Does it reflect how young voters feel as we get closer to the election . For more, let me welcome director of polling at the Harvard Kennedy School Institute of politics, also a msnbc clinical contributor and former Florida Republican tom grossman, david jolly. David, your reactions to the scenes unfolding across campuses . Jonathan, look, in october, hamas attacked Israel Mechling over 1200 people, taking several hundred hostages, including american citizens and i dont think theres anything that joe biden could do that would change how Benjamin Netanyahu executes the war. That is the reality of our politics. What is also true is that domestically, we have a shift among our current alliances with israel, particularly within the Democratic Party and that is okay. The questioning of our current posture. I think a lot of grace has to be given for the exercise of independent thought on College Campuses and for free speech. And, we also have to recognize that students, particularly jewish students, have to be protected in this moment. It is okay to recognize that israel will continue to execute this war while also recognizing the concerns and speech of young voters in the United States. Those two things can coexist. Nothing is easy in this moment. What i do think is untoward and awful is the manipulation of politicians, of 18, 19, 20year olds on College Campuses. Republican or democratic,s stay out of this. Freespeech debate going on on college canvases. David, to that point, House Speaker Micah Johnson visited Columbia University amid the protests but his trip was met with hostility from folks on and off campus. Given what you just said, does this add fuel to the fire . It does. It is cheap politics. It is absolutely cheap politics. These are kids. When you get gray hair, you can recognize grace given to students. When i was a student, echo sized freespeech and political areas and places maybe i regret all right dont. It is okay. Some of the most passionate movements in domestic politics have been led by students and we should recognize that and embrace that. Let these College Communities the College Communities. To the national politicians, stay out of it. It is cheap shots. We know where the geopolitics stands between the United States, israel, and the middle east. We also know that we want to raise up college kids who are willing and able to exercise their very strong forces. That is okay. You dont have to be threatened if you are Micah Johnson or Marjorie Taylor greene, let college kids be college kids and let these campuses work it out. My opinion. Dont apologize, i agree. There are two votes for that. John, this remains a difficult issue for the Biden Campaign. According to the latest polling, biden leads trump 45 to 37 among young voters but at this point in the 2020 election, biden led by 23 . Is his handling of the war in gaza driving that drop in support . Im not sure you can explain the drop in support directly to this issue, jonathan. What is clear to echo what david said, strong majorities of young people on and off College Campuses across this country have sympathy for both the Palestinian People as well as the israeli people. That simply doesnt necessarily connect the way to the government, where they have far less sympathy. The government and the leadership there. Young people are calling for peace by in 52 1 margin. They are asking for a permanent ceasefire. The degree to which president biden, as he did last week, recognizes the innocent civilians, the Kidnap Victims in israel but also the palestinian cause, those are the things that will connect with younger people. But, you are right. This grace to me looks more like the 2012 race, where President Obama had a 13 or 14 point lead among registered voters to mitt romney. We know that lead doubled over the course of a couple hundred days between the spring and fall and we will see if this happens again in 2024. I want to pick up on something you just talked about. According to your latest poll, 51 of young voters support a permanent ceasefire. But, john, only 2 of respondents cited the israel and palestine conflict as their top concern. So, what is their top priority . That is right. That is an open ended question where they can volunteer anything. 2 said that conflict. Overwhelmingly, younger people telling me, focus groups and the harvard poll, multiple other poles ive conducted, the number one concern is the cost of living. It is inflation that is affecting, adding tremendous amounts of stress on a daily basis. Another poll i released today that was sponsored by snapshot indicated 43 of young voters feel stressed every single day because of the cost of groceries, the cost of gas, extend that to the cost and access of health care and also to housing. It is the economy that is driving most of the political dialogue among younger people today. This is incredibly important but it pales in comparison to concerned about inflation. David, let me read a quote from charles blow writing in the new york times. There seems to be a sense in the Biden Campaign that it can simply wait the protesters out, that passions will eventually fade and democratic voters will fall in line when we get closer to election day and the choice between biden and donald trump becomes more stark. That is a reckless gamble. It is interesting to read that quote after what john was just talking about, how this reminds him of 2012 and how folks did come back home. Do you agree with john or do you agree with charles blow . Look, it is girly, right . It is easy to imagine a world in which by the time we get to the Democratic National convention, the protests have taken over the the medics of the convention and concerns over joe bidens foreign policy. What we do know across all crosstabs is that whether or not the economy is moving in the right direction seems to be the most prevalent question, whether you are young, old, whether you are a latino voter, africanamerican voter, white rural voters, it is about the direction of the economy. You also have to look at moments like you just showed, jonathan, about joe bidens interview with howard stern. The president willing to talk about his contemplation with suicide. In a moment of Deep Darkness for his own personal life, whether or not he drove to the delaware Memorial Bridge and took his own life . That type of authenticity, speaking to any family member, young, old, white, black, whatever it might be, compared to donald trump, who exercises grievance politics outside of the courtroom in new york. Listen, i think young voters will realize the contrast and say joe biden is the president i want to come november. The only thing i will say to enter this segment, david, is you need to get a pair of thick framed glasses if you will be part of this trio the next time we are on. David jolly, john della volpe, thank you both for coming to this show. When we come back, from Campus Protests to trumps dizzying days in court, or french and historian john meacham puts this historic week into perspective. The 11th hour continues. Our co. But instead remade over and over. Into the things that keep our food fresher, our families safer, and our planet cleaner. To help us get there, americas plastic makers are investing billions of dollars to create Innovative Products and new Recycling Technologies for sustainable change. Because when you push for smarter solutions, big things can happen. my name is jaxon, and i have spastic cerebral palsy. Its a mouthful. 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Com, call or scan the qr code on your screen with your gift of 19 a month and well send you this tshirt as a thank you. Mother your help and your support, the need for it is endless. Jaxon thank you, cause theres a lot of people with disabilities out there. People like me. Please join easterseals with your monthly gift right now. do you think that this moment is as applicable as we believe it is now . I think certainly it is. We havent had to confront it before. In some ways, i think weve taken for granted the freedom that weve enjoyed. So, i think that the message, and, again, it is up to us. But, we have to make sure the lesson of this moment when historians look back will be that we all met at the moment. This is an incredibly consequential moment in history. Just look at what happened this week. Witness testimony in the first Criminal Trial of a former president again in new york. The Supreme Court is considering the scope of president ial immunity with regards to the former president s attempt to overturn the 2020 election. And, College Campuses erupted in protests over the israel hamas war. To help contextualize this moment, i welcome historian john meacham. He occasionally advises president biden. John, great to see you. A former president s alleged crimes have been on display in court and that will continue for the coming weeks. We use the term unprecedented a lot. As an historian, is it . Well, it is against my Business Model to agree with you but i do. It is unprecedented. For a long time, i thought that what president trumps represented and the forces that he embodied accelerated and deepened were a difference of degree but not of kind, that is that we dealt with this in the past. This is a difference of kind, however. The assertion of a president being totally above the law as congresswoman liz cheney said in that event, at the National Cathedral this week, we do have to meet this moment. It requires people who put constitution above 30 in the way she did in a remarkably courageous stand. And, so, as weve listened to the Supreme Court this week, the court trying to figure out how to define president ial power and president ial accountability. You see the former president in manhattan submitting to the rule of law. As you say, there are these protests that are so resident of 1968. You have a moment where so much of what we care about, what we should care about, is at risk. And, what it requires is all of us to decide what site we are on. And, what is thrilling about that is it is up to us and what is terrifying about it is it is up to us. John, give us some perspective here, perspective on the Supreme Court now deciding whether or not the former president can be charged, trump can be charged for his alleged attempt to overturn the 2020 election. Look, no president had tried to do that. This goes to your unprecedented point. One of the things, i urge folks to try to listen to the audio of the arguments. What is so remarkable about it is a number of the conservative justices didnt want to talk about the actual facts of the case, that is the context of the moment. Why are we having this debate . We are not having this debate because an american president did something in the ordinary course of human events, as jefferson put it. We are having this case, these issues, this fundamental crisis of democracy, because, for the First Time Since George Washington took the oath in april of 1789, the first time a president tried to stop the peaceful transfer of power. And, because he failed does not mean it is not an enduring crisis that requires our attention. It failed because mike pence did the right thing. It failed because a number of State Officials did the right thing. And, our institutions are fragile, they are fallible, and they require human agency. But, to allow an attempted coup ditat to go unanswered, two unaccounted for in the courts is, i think, in violation of the spirit of the rule of law, the explicit point of the american revolution, which as thomas bank put it, in america ask who is the king, we say the king is the law. John, lets turn to the protests sweeping College Campuses. I know they have reached Vanderbilt University in nashville, tennessee, where you live and work. Does it bring to mind for you the antiwar protests of the 60s . Does. I think it is, as you say, it is an unusual level of public demonstration around the country. I suppose the most, perhaps the antiapartheid protests of the 80s might be on this scale. I think you are seeing a number of complicated and important debates over not just the substance of these issues but the style, if you will, the means by which these protests are being undertaken. I think part of it, too, is, this is pure speculation on my part, i wonder if part of it is that the issue, the middle east question has in some ways given an entire generation that has lived in an era in which public action has not seemed to deliver, that is if you think about this generation, the students i teach, this will make both of us feel old, even you, jonathan, they were all born after september 11th. So, their lives are, after september 11th, the failure of intelligence on weapons of mass destruction, the great recession, Donald Trumps rise, covid19, insurrection. So, you have this remarkably difficult time. It is what makes, i think, history so important here, is that it requires people to tell the story of hours when democracy did in fact deliver. I think part of this may be a pent up kind of frustration about the failure of the Public Square to prove itself commensurate to the tasks that they believe are important. In the 22nd we have left, john, how concerned are you that the Democratic Convention in chicago in 2024 is going to be reminiscent of the 19, the Democratic Convention in chicago in 1960, 1968 . I think 1968 is one of those years where everything almost fell apart. Dr. King is assassinated, Senator Kennedy is assassinated, Something Like 49 americans died every day in vietnam in combat. 49. You had the conventions and then on election day, Richard Nixon narrowly defeats hubert humphrey. George wallace got 13. 5 of the vote and carried five states. It was a similarly chaotic time. And, i think the convention has the possibility of being chaotic. I think it is a concern. John meacham, thank you. When we come back, the inside story of how amazon grew into one of the most powerful and feared companies in the world, when the 11th hour continues. Continues. Oh, yeah, man. Take it from your inner child. What you really need in life is some freakin torque. What . The dodge hornet r t. The totally torquedout crossover. [music playing] tiffany my daughter is mila. She is 19 months old. She is a little ray of sunshine. One of the happiest babies youll probably ever meet. [giggles] children with Down Syndrome typically have a higher risk for developing acute myeloid leukemia, or just leukemia in general. And here we are. Marlo thomas st. Jude Childrens Research Hospital works day after day to find cures and save the lives of children with cancer and other lifethreatening diseases. Tiffany she was referred to st. Jude at 11 months. They knew what to do as soon as they got her diagnosis. They already had her treatment plan drawn out. And they were like, this is what were going to do. 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Im so glad you are here, dana mattioli, amazon, the trucks, the boxes, the app , it is everywhere. Whether you call it ruthless or not, it is almost like an unavoidable, there i said, utility and so many peoples lives. How did we get here . Jeffrey pesos set out to make this company a daily habit when he launched it as a bookstore and he has more than 60 did, to the point where it is almost unavoidable. I will give you an example. If you are taking a lyft , that is powered by amazon web services. Amazon bought my doctors office. Their tentacles are in every aspect of the american economy, american life. And, even outside of retail, they are one of the biggest partial deliverers in the u. S. , the biggest Cloud Computing platform, they are a health care giant. They are everywhere. The ftc isnt just going after amazon, they are focused on monopolies, but, they are going after them over the next few years and it doesnt seem like the company cares. The new ceo, his focus is to grow and grow and grow. They have been wildly unfazed by this lawsuit, which could result in the breakup of the company if the ftc wins. He has told his deputies this could be a 10 trillion company. They are about 2 trillion right now. There is a scene in the book i think is funny, where their General Counsel tells the employees at this all hands that it is going to hate, we are going to shake this off. They are, whether we like it or not, they are. The question is are we going to wake up one day and say how did this happen . The model has been flood the zone, sell everything and anything and make it super cheap. For sellers, especially small Brick And Mortar operators, they said you can come here and sell on our platform. Once they did that, but now, everything is getting more expensive for the consumers but also for those sellers out there. It is a bit of a faustian bargain. They have to be there. I speak to them all the time and they talk about oppressive environments there. Their fees are going up, their margins are being compressed. I say why are you still there and they say we have to be there. This is where 40 of all E Commerce Is and because amazon has all the power in the scenario, the dynamic is amazon holds all the cards, they could raise all the fees and pass them on to us. They have to raise their prices. That is what the ftc is alleging in this lawsuit, we are paying higher prices because amazon holds all the cards. Is this jeff bezos plan all along . The quiet part out loud, this was the plan and now we are living in it and it is potentially too late to unwind that question and people have been raising the alarms about this for a long time. If you look at amazons competitor ways, they are one of the few companies that is a Market Leader across many segments. Spoken to many ceos that have lobbied in washington saying this company has too many advantages. They are doing other things that we cannot compete with. Now it is all really come to boost. Here is the thing, we could say right now that in theory, we dont like it. But, i bet theres going to be amazon boxes outside your house tomorrow and i assure you, they will be outside mine and we talk about how it is wiping out small businesses. When you go to small towns, they dont have a pizzeria and a dress shop because they cant find the labor force because people want to work at Amazon Warehouse because the pay is better and benefits are utter. As much as we are complaining about it, is this the new world we are living in and most likely, it isnt going anywhere . I would say americans have a reliance on this company in a way that has hurt their main street, that has hurt some of the smaller businesses trying to compete. That is the funny part of this. When i speak to consumers, they can understand where amazon might be pushing the boundaries on competitive tactics but they love their prime. It is this catch22. What was your Biggest Surprise . Here is this behemoth in our daily lives and there may be things we dont know about it that we should. I discovered a pattern of predatory behavior at the company driven by a cutthroat culture. People do what they can to stay ahead to keep their jobs and theres this pattern of Copying Entrepreneurs that we meet with in order to reverse engineer their Best Selling Product so amazon has the own home run on there and. That has hurt innovation, that has these businesses and it means amazon is able to mine agedependent base of partners and merchants for ideas. They won the game. Some might say theyve already one. Heres my question, this book, your new book, is it sold on amazon . It is, as of right now. It is sold on amazon. Sounds like they have already won. Congratulations on this book. It is a mustread, it is really, really important. Dana, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Amazon responded to the allegations in the book in a statement to nbc news, the facts show amazon has made shopping easier and more convenient for customers, spurred lower prices, enabled millions of successful small businesses, and significantly increased competition in retail. When we come back, sipping on success. How one town in wisconsin was saved by beer, when the 11th hour continues. Hour continues. My name is douglas. Im a writer director and im still working. In the kind of work that i do, you are surrounded by people who are all younger than you. I had to get help somewhere along the line to stay competitive. I discovered prevagen. I started taking it and after a period of time, my memory improved. It was a gamechanger for me. Prevagen. At stores everywhere without a prescription. Ethan hows my favorite client . 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Now, i work at comcast as part of the team that created our ai highlights technology, which uses ai to detect the major plays in a sports game. Giving millions of fans, like my dad and me, new ways of catching up on their favorite sport. The last thing before we go tonight, Business Competition once sent the small rural town of potosi and decline but today, residents are tapping into history to get their hometown back on the map. My colleague maggie vespa brings us the story. Reporter and the hum of this factory in rural wisconsin lies the sound of a small towns second wind. This story, best told over a point, begins in 1852 with the birth of the Potosi Brewing Company , a major employer and the 1970s, when competition turned off its taps. Almost everybody in potosi had a relative who had worked there. Was in existence for ,120. Reporter soon, potosis population plummeted, its re crumbled. In the 90s, going up for auction. Local artist, gary david, bought it for 6300. 00. And, i have a very for fond memory of the forefathers that came before us. I thought it was worth the effort and the risk. Reporter insurance executive fritz launched the Potosi Foundation to bring the brewery back. It was all about the jobs. Reporter a way of keeping the small town alive through beer. For years, the fund raised. In 2008, rebuilding the tap room. Then, a new factory. This facility is capable of packaging more than 80 million cans per year of potosi beer but also more than a dozen other average companies from across the country. Industry buzz followed. Potosi is now home to the National Brewery museum and annual festivals. Potosi gets 70,000 tourists a year . Yes. Reporter that is a lot of people. How good does that beer taste of the driving 100 miles . It tastes really great. Reporter the taste of the towns come back. Maggie vespa, nbc news, potosi, wisconsin. Cheers to potosi. On that note, i wish you a good night. Remember, you can catch me every weekend on the Saturday Show and The Sunday Show at 6 00 p. M. Eastern right here on msnbc. Up next, a look back at trumps Criminal Trial today. From all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late, see you this weekend. We