Transcripts For MSNBCW Chris 20240703

Up witness david pecker who is at times combative, and jurors largely avoiding looking at trump, but according to those inside the room, giving pecker their rapt attention. For a day filled with details and inside baseball legalese, no small feat. We have a panel of experts standing by to explain it all. Plus, nothing matters more than how the jury is interpreting the Witness Testimony weve seen so far. How are attorneys on both sides analyzing what jurors are taking away from the questioning. Well ask a Jury Consultant. And for the political stakes of this trial, the campaign. The former president announcing new Campaign Events when hes not in the courtroom while President Biden just made a promise that could have a major impact on novembers race. So a lot to get to. We begin with that Redirect Questioning of key witness david pecker, which began just a short time ago. Prosecutors jumping straight into rebutting some key threats from the defense. One key, for example, steinglass, is that true, mr. Pecker . Was that your purpose in locking up the Karen Mcdougal story, to influence the election . To which pecker replied yes. That came after trumps defense team in Cross Examination tried painting the picture that what the National Enquirer did for trump in 2016 was just business. Nbcs Vaughn Hillyard is reporting from outside the courthouse in new york city. Also with us, paul butler, former federal prosecutor, Georgetown School of law professor and an msnbc legal analyst, and Tristan Snell former assistant to attorney general for new york who led the Trump University investigation. He is also the author of Taking Down Trump 12 rules for prosecuting donald trump by someone who did it successfully. So vaughn, catch us up on the big moments so far and how trump has been reacting to whats unfolding. Reporter right, chris, the Cross Examination from Donald Trumps defense team ended after nearly four hours, and over the course of those four hours, this morning here you have the prosecution or i should say you have the defense team for donald trump repeatedly trying to muddy the waters. Calling into question, past statements, recollection of david pecker over his conversations with donald trump in 2015, 2016. His conversations with federal prosecutors back in 2018, even american medias letter to the fec as recently as 2021, and over the course of this, they called into question Michael Cohens credibility through david peckers own testimony, and now what we saw over the last half hour from this redirect from the prosecution was an attempt for the jury to refocus in on what david pecker testified to their initial questions. And that was the fact that this was done in an effort to influence the 2016 election. You have them focusing on the fact that this was an unusual relationship. Folks will recall that yesterday under Cross Examination he referenced Arnold Schwarzenegger and the fact that they had a similar relationship with the former california governor during his campaign in the early 2000s in california, but the distinction that the prosecution is now making through david pecker is that there is no more than 20,000 ever spent on sourcing to quash any negative stories about schwarzenegger and theres no previous candidate ever including schwarzenegger in which david pecker or the National Enquirer had agreed to be the eyes and ears in work with such direct cahoots with a candidate or with the campaign, and they once again just had david pecker acknowledge that by buying the rights to Karen Mcdougals story that there was, quote, zero intention to ever publish her story, that it was all an effort to, quote, help candidate donald trump. The prosecution wants this afternoon in finishing its redirect to hone in for this jury. Again, the focus that david pecker is here to tell the story that, number one, they used david pecker and the National Enquirer to influence the 2016 election and that, number two, that they sought after these negative stories alleging Extramarital Affairs with donald trump in order to keep them from the American Public before november of 2016, chris. Okay. Paul, trumps defense drilled in again today into the words standard in questioning pecker, they drew that running negative stories like one on trumps opponents was standard because it was good for business, but in redirect, steinglass also now honed in on that term. He asked is it standard to be negotiating with a president ial candidates fixer on an agreement and is a 1 million Liquidated Damages Clause on a 30,000 source agreement Standard Operating Procedure. Whos being more effective on the use of the word standard and why does it matter so much . So i think they were both making decent points. This trial is about trumps motive in arranging this hush money payment, Hush Money Payments arent illegal unless youre disguising Business Records or falsifying Business Records, which is what the prosecution is alleging, and so trumps defense is, well, a lot of people did these deals where they tried to protect their private information. It wasnt about the campaign. Its about peoples reputation or trumps case, it was about protecting his family. But again, if youre going to do a deal like that, do you really pay all this money that trump was willing to pay both Karen Mcdougal and Stormy Daniels. That hasnt been the practice in other cases. And mr. Peckers key concession both on direct and now in response to the redirect was that trump knew that this was about the campaign. Thats what alvin bragg has to prove and i think on that point hes proving it. So this, tristan is exactly why i was surprised to hear, were following our blog, other blogs from people who are in the room. They talk about jurors being rapt. They are leaning in. They are taking copious notes. A lot of this is testimony is pretty inside baseball. Whos doing a better job here . From your reading of it . Yeah, look, i think theyre both doing a pretty good job, but i think the prosecution is scoring more points right now. When the jury is leaning in, and theyre paying attention, look, a lot of this is inside baseball, but a lot of this is pretty direct and clear. Like, what was the purpose of all of this. I think that theres a certain amount of common sense here that i think the jurors are going to bring to bear. What was the purpose of paying this money. Thats really what this whole thing comes down to. The fact that the money was paid is not really in question. The fact and its not illegal, keep pointing that out. And then were going to get to the part where its clear that Michael Cohen invoiced it and it was papered as Legal Expenses to him when it wasnt. Thats going to be clear too. The question is why did they do it . And i think the fact that the jury is leaning in and the fact that youre seeing some really great stuff here on redirect, i think that the prosecution scored a lot of points today. So when youre talking with these kinds of things, and again, im not hearing it. Im only reading what can be typed very quickly, is this something that you dont necessarily need the jury to follow in every detail right now . If its that important youll bring it back this closing or with a later witness. Of course, exactly. Youre laying the groundwork. Youre laying the groundwork. A lot of these exchanges here, these are very simple questions and very simple answers. Some of them arent. Some of them are much more involved. Some of them are actually very, very cut and dry. The purpose of it was to influence the election. Pecker saying, yes, weve put that up on the screen a number of times now. Thats a key thing. The jury heard that. Like a lot of those sort of big moments in there, the jury was dialed in. From all reports, they were paying attention. They got those key moments in it, and, yes, if the prosecutors do their job right, and i trust they will, theyre going to keep coming back to these key points as the trial progresses. Let me ask you about one of those moments that will seem, i think, pretty straightforward to most people, but i want your interpretation of it. Trumps lawyer pressed pecker on his efforts to sell the National Enquirer during talks for that nonprosecution agreement with federal prosecutors in new york. Bove asked pecker, you knew that to consummate that deal, you had to clear up the investigation, to which pecker replied, yes. Whats the significance there . So, chris, at the end of the trial, the judge is going to instruct the jury that the defense does not have to prove anything. Its the prosecution that has the heavy burden of proof, so mr. Boves shot is to plant reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors. So his Cross Examination is trying to suggest to the jury that the prosecutions first witness is compromised, and thus, hes not credible. If he admits to wrongdoing, then hes going to lose money from this deal with trying to sell the National Enquirer and thats also why mr. Bove is focused on peckers nonprosecution deal. He wants the jury to think that pecker is basically marching to alvin braggs orders because pecker doesnt want to go to jail himself. So thats also why he told the jury that trump thanked that trump had thanked mr. Pecker a few days before the inauguration even though mr. Pecker earlier told the fbi that trump had not thanked him. So chris, for an effective Cross Examination, mr. Bove doesnt need a perry mason moment where pecker breaks down on the stand. All he has to do is kind of chip away at mr. Peckers testimony, and i think hes done a decent job of that. Yeah, there are points at which, again, reporting from inside, they talk about the way bove was approaching this, the description of david pecker is that hes a smaller man, fairly slight, that he has a kind of a soft demeanor, which belies, right, the jobs that he actually did, but thats the way hes coming across on the stand, and at one point, bove got pretty pointed and raised his voice a little bit. Are you very careful when youre doing a Cross Examination about how you come across in contrast to however the witness presents . Right, because theres two things youre trying to do there. One of them is to get the witness to say things that help your case. Thats actually what youre trying to get them to do. Youre trying to get that opposing witness to say things that help your case. The other thing youre trying to do at all times is to be likable and relatable with the jury. If the jury doesnt like you, youre toast. So yeah, i dont think its great for bove to then be striking too much of a contrast. Youve got a witness thats being nice and courteous and so forth and so on, and then youve got a Defense Counsel whos ripping them apart, thats not a good combo. Thats a bad contrast. Its not going to make the jury really like bove very much. I think, look, they managed to find some Little Things in there to make people question peckers credibility. But i think the one thing that a lot of people have is common sense, and this will get carried into the jury room, is that if youve got an alleged criminal on trial and the other witnesses are other people who did bad things, well, thats just how it works. Like to catch a criminal youre probably going to have other people that engaged in criminal activity up on the stand. Thats just the way these things go. And the prosecution will probably point that out at different points here. A lot of these people, their hands arent clean either, but they came clean, they cooperated with us, and theyre now telling the truth, and thats exactly how youre not going to get that persons Criminal Culpability examined unless you look at the other people that engaged in criminal activity with them. I should say, paul, that theyve just broken for lunch. The expectation is that they maybe have another half hour or less and then recross but theyre out until 12 15. I want to go back to this idea about even though the questions get asked multiple times, and sometimes they can get asked in a very convoluted way. At the heart of this, right, to some extent is intent. Why did catch and kill happen . Did it happen for Business Reasons . Did it happen because this was Standard Operating Procedure, or did it happen because they were trying to protect the campaign. And in one of the very last exchanges that just happened in the last couple of minutes, heres what david pecker said. Those stories that came up and he means the negative stories that would appear, i would speak to Michael Cohen and tell him that these are the stories that are going to be for sale. If we dont buy them, someone else would. How important is that for the case the prosecution is trying to make and that bove was trying to disprove . Yeah, its huge, so every one of the governments witnesses who has knowledge will say that this catch and kill deal and the Hush Money Payments were all about trying to install donald trump in the white house. And trump isnt going to present one witness who will contradict that based on what we know because everybody who was involved in this, hope hicks, mr. Pecker, donald trump, and Michael Cohen all say that it was about the camcampaign, and i think that the direct on direct examination, mr. Pecker did say that Michael Cohen was kind of full of himself. He was trying to put his fingers in everything, and he was acting like he was a campaign lawyer, but that wasnt his job. So that will support trumps defense that it wasnt his intent to try to win the election by shutting up Stormy Daniels and Karen Mcdougal, maybe thats something that Michael Cohen was trying to do, but trump will try to get the jury to think he didnt have anything to do with that, that Michael Cohen was a lone wolf. For the first time our team that has been inside the courthouse can join us live to talk about what they saw. I want to bring in msnbc Legal Correspondent lisa rubin, msnbc contributor and New York Times investigative correspondent sue craig, and legal analyst Kristy Greenberg as i always do, i want to get, first of all, lisa, just your big takeaways from the morning because, again, were reading the document. Were not in there. But for the last day of whats been a long week, it sounds like there was some real moments in that courtroom. There definitely were. I would say today was less successful for emil bove who is the lawyer who is questioning david pecker from trumps side, and in particular, he was trying to exploit perceived inconsistencies in peckers testimony. Not only his testimony here but contrasting it with things that he has said over the years to state and federal prosecutors. Chris, you might be asking yourself, how does trumps team know what david pecker said to state and federal prosecutors, and thats because its discoverable. And in particular, the notes that the fbi took during david peckers meeting with federal prosecutors were discoverable in this court, and usable for impeachment purposes. That doesnt always happen in federal court. I thought that was not as successful as bove wanted it to be because he was sort of fixated on small details. He was also trying to elicit from Pecker Inconsistencies between what pecker himself had said and things that his lawyers had represented to state and federal prosecutors. Largely that was shut down. The one thing that i thought bove had some success at was planting in the jurors mind the idea that david pecker confessed to certain conduct not because he actually did it but because at the time that the sdny came knocking, the Manhattan Bureau of the department of justice, david pecker and ami were trying to close a 100 million transaction with the hudson news group, and his insinuation was if you didnt resolve this investigation, that transaction would have fallen apart. It turns out it did fall apart, although im not sure exactly why. But i thought that sort of might have created an impression in the jurors minds, this guy had a motivation not to tell the truth, and it was beyond saving his own hide. It was for the thing that he has told us throughout motivated him programs more than anything, which is the financial bottom line. And then of course Josh Steinglass got to start his redirect, and the thing that i thought he was great at doing was dismantling the trumps Team Standard Operating Procedure theme. They tried yesterday a million times to get pecker to explain that various facets of the trump arrangement were actually just Standard Operating Procedure at ami. They had source agreements all the time. The source agreements had Nondisclosure Provisions and exclusivity provisions. It was standard to pay sources and on and on and on, and steinglass was great At Separating out what made the Trump Agreement unique and also pointing pecker to provisions in his nonprosecution agreement and the Settlement Agreement with the fec that bove had purposely not shown to the jury to show in actuality he did admit to conduct that while not flat out admission of a legal violation, was tantamount to the same, chris. Was there a moment for you, sue . Yeah, there absolutely was. I have to say for me the morning, there was a lot of trying to discredit david pecker and poke holes in the testimony, but for me, i think the morning back and forth both with the government and Donald Trumps lawyers was Donald Trumps team trying to muddy up that payment to Karen Mcdougal. David pecker has said it was a payment to silence her in essence, that there was no Services Provided, but Donald Trumps lawyers spent the morning saying, well, hang on. There were Services Provided. She got the cover of a magazine. She got a column. There actually was, you know, Services Provided for that money. David pecker, of course, is saying that those were just sort of dressing on it to make it look legal. That the real intent of it was to buy Karen Mcdougals silence. That is really important because this trial will come down to was there a crime concealed, and thats what were all looking for, and they were trying to say, well, hang on, that wasnt a crime what happened, she did some stuff, and she got paid. I thought that, to me, was really important and on redirect, the governments lawyers came back in and kept asking pecker about it, and he kept saying over and over, sure, she did some stuff, but the real purpose of that was to silence her, and in fact, he ended up paying a fine to the federal Election Commission for that payment for because a corporation got involved in an election when they shouldnt have. One point when bove, Kristy Greenberg, was really it seemed again im reading the document. Thats why im asking you folks who were actually in there, when bove was talking to pecker and challenging his interpretation of some of the things that happened, it ended essentially with pecker saying, you know, im trying to tell the truth or tried to tell the truth here, and i wonder how that played . I dont think it played very well because he really did come across as someone who was trying to tell the truth, who was looking at documents when they were brought to him, trying to refresh his recollection, and so when you continue to say to someone, you know, there was one moment in particular where david pecker is being shown documents that were not his own notes but notes that were drafted from the fbi. These were not notes that he reviewed at the time. He never looked at them for accuracy, and hes being cross examined on inconsistencies between his testimony and whats in the notes. And david pecker quite rightly said, i didnt write these notes. I didnt you know, i didnt review these notes. These arent mine. They may be wrong. Maybe theres a mistake in them. I know what i testified to. I know that i am telling you the truth, and it was just bove wanted this to be a got cha moment, and it was not. It fell completely flat. Pecker came across as minnesota who was earnestly trying to tell the truth. What was your impression, sue, of donald trump today . Well, two things that i just want to start a little bit with that moment that kristy was talking about because they really that was their gotcha moment, and i do think it fell flat. They thought that they could discredit him, and they said, well, this you know, your recollection doesnt match these notes, but they were notes. There was no transcript, and i think the jury, they were hammering on it. We dont obviously know how it fell with the jury, but i think it fell pretty flat in the courtroom of the people who were watching. Donald trump came in this morning and he looked tired. I think we all were tired. He particularly looked tired, and he did have his eyes closed for most of the day. I cant say he was sleeping. Sometimes he is listening when he has his eyes closed, but he looked fatigued when he came in. I have to say i think were all feeling fatigued, the courtroom itself, there was a feeling a fatigue in the courtroom. He looked very tired this morning. Chris, can i add two things to amplify things that kristy and sue have just said . Please. Okay. I want to talk about these fbi notes because, as emil bove should have known and kristy knows well fbi 302s, which are the reports that are created after a witness interview are not transcriptions. In fact, thats one of the reasons that jack smiths team recorded the all of their interviews of witnesses and provided actual transcripts in the maralago Documents Investigation because they didnt want to be confused of having incomplete fbi 302s, so bove should have known going in there that that is a criticism that can be lobbed at any fbi 302. The other thing i wanted to say about sues observation that trump is tired. There have been days trump has been alone. They have seen the criticism in the press about him falling asleep and or how small he seems when hes solitary, so he is always accompanied by one of his lawyers directly adjacent to him now when they go to these long side bars. They actually shuffled over to make sure theres someone sitting next to him. So they actually change seats . I just want to i just want to clarify that point, a lawyer will actually change seats to be sitting next to donald trump when the others may have gone up to the bench . Thats absolutely true, and it seems like the strategy is twofold. One, to make sure he always has company and doesnt seem sort of diminished by his solitariness, and the second goal is to keep him awake, right . And they are trying other strategies to do that as well. Trump walks in every day with a big stack of papers that appear to be News Articles carefully culled for his own reading. Reading his good press is keeping him at least more energized than he might ordinarily be. He seems to be flipping through them with a goal of sort of taking the best and adding them to his truth social account. You can sometimes see although we cant see whats in his stack, you can imagine sort of that some of those things that hes been handed and in his social media posts and or even in Campaign Emails later in the day. So there is a political purpose there as well as a legal purpose in keeping him awake for at least the jurors benefit. How much do you think that plays, Kristy Greenberg to the jury . Again, im just reading the notes that i see, but it seems like jurors have not spent a lot of time looking directly at donald trump. Well, i think that the jurors are really trying to focus on the questioning and the witness. It seems like they are engaged. They are paying attention. They are taking notes, and that is what they should be doing, so donald trump falling asleep or resting his eyes, whichever it may be, you know, im sure thats something a jury would notice and maybe chuckle at, but you know, it does seem like theyre engaged and focused on the evidence. Let me ask you finally, lisa rubin, you said andthese are notes you sent to us internally, if he could manage it steinglass would be wise to end redirect before lunch, and was otherwise credible and informative. Where do we go from here . Well, he didnt succeed in ending his redirect as i think even kristy he has had a half an hour left. However, the ending point that he, you know, ended on right before we came to the lunch break was im going to borrow his phrase, was prosecute gold because what he was trying to do was get david pecker to admit that, yes, it was mutually beneficial for he and trump to agree to publish positive stories about donald trump, particularly given Donald Trumps popularity with the enquirers readership. On the other hand, agreeing to suppress Karen Mcdougals story was not at all in the pecuniary interests of pecker or ami. Why . Agreeing not to publish it or having the interest not to publish it not only helped donald trump, but more importantly running that story as steinglass got pecker to admit would have been enquirer gold, and that is literally where we stopped. Thats the impression the jurors were left with before their long lunch break. Hell get an opportunity to continue with pecker before they get to call their next witness. So theres sort of no harm lost with respect to preparation. Theyre not giving the defense an advantage because the next witness is their own. They know who theyre going to call. Apparently the defense knows who theyre going to call too. Susan necklace whos one of trumps lawyers and Susan Hoffinger, one of the prosecutors had theyre talking about who the next witness is and indeed, when they asked, mr. Blanche asked for a Public Disclosure who the next witness is, Susan Hoffinger said i discussed that with ms. Necklace this morning. It remains to be seen who that witness is. Chris, you know well bring it to you as soon as we can. Just to punctuate your point because anybody who has watched a legal procedural, knows you want to end before you go to a break at lunch or at the end of the day with something, heres how we memorialized it in our blog. Mr. Steinglass, at the time you entered into the agreement, you had zero intention of publication, even if it would have helped the bottom line, you killed it because it would have hurt president trump. A oneword answer from david pecker. Correct. Lisa rubin, sue craig, Kristy Greenberg, we could not do this without you. Paul butler, now you are sticking around for more analysis. Coming up, as most eyes are on the witnesses during their testimony, there are a select few people in the courtroom who zero in on the jurors, and for good reason. Were going to dive into the world of Jury Consultants and the role theyre playing in trumps Hush Money Trial next. I was born to live in the limelight. But psoriasis kept me in the shadows. Until i got clearer skin with bimzelx. Most people got 100 clear skin. Some after the first dose. Serious side effects, including suicidal thoughts and behavior, infections and lowered ability to fight them, liver problems, and inflammatory bowel disease, have occurred. Tell your doctor if these happen or worsen, or if youve had a vaccine or plan to. start to get yourself back, with bimzelx. Ask your dermatologist about bimzelx today. With Schwab Investing themes™, its easy to invest in ideas you believe in. Spot a trend in electric vehicles . Have a passion for Online Gaming . Or want to explore the Space Economy . Choose from over 40 themes, each with up to 25 stocks identified by our unique algorithm. Buy it asis or customize to align with your goals. All at your fingertips. Schwab investing themes. 40 customizable themes. Up to 25 stocks in just a few clicks. Try killing bugs the worryfree way. Not the other way. Zevo traps use light to attract and trap flying insects with no odor and no mess. They work continuously, so you dont have to. Zevo. Peoplefriendly. Bugdeadly. [stomach growling] its nothing. Sounds like something. When you have nausea, heartburn, indigestion upset stomach, diarrhea pepto bismol coats and soothes for fast relief when you need it most. When others divide. We unite. With Real Solutions to help our kids. Like community schools. Neighborhood hubs that provide everything from Mental Health services to food pantries. Academic tutoring to prom dresses. Healthcare to after care. Community schools can wrap so much around public schools. And through meaningful partnerships with families, they become centers of their communities. Real solutions for kids and communities at aft. Org there have been some pretty interesting observations from people in court about the jurors today at Donald Trumps Hush Money Trial t. Has been a long week. Weve said that, but our folks say they do seem at times, seem enthralled at this fourth day of testimony from david pecker. Theyve been seen taking notes while their eyes are bouncing back and forth between pecker and defense attorney bove. One juror has been seen chewing on the end of a pen while eyes are focused on pecker. These are the kinds of details that Jury Consultants may be looking at closely during the trial because, remember, the defense only needs to convince one juror if they want to keep this case from having a conviction. Joining me now, msnbcs katie phang. Jury consultant and founder of trial methods, alan tuerkheimer, Tristan Snell is back with me. What do we know about Jury Consultants . We do are reporting that the Trump Defense team in this particular trial has been using a jury Consulting Firm out of philadelphia. Interestingly, chris, that jury Consulting Firm was used in the Second Defamation Trial that was brought by writer e. Jean carroll against donald trump, and we all know that the verdict in that was a whopping multimillion dollar one. But the Jury Consultants in this case depending on their Retention Agreement with their client can start from the very beginning meaning before the jurors are even brought in in terms of the potential veneer ray, meaning from day one of their retention, they sit down and consider what would be the profile for the perfect juror in this case considering all the issues, considering their personalities, considering all the parties, considering all the lawyers. I mean, its a perfectly choreographed information and a deep dive into what the issues are in the case to be able to find the right juror to sit on this trial. It doesnt end sometimes for a Jury Consultant there. Sometimes they stay all the way through the verdict. You want to be able to look at the jurors during the course of a trial to see whether or not you can pick up on cues and certain things like Body Language that theyre buying what youre selling or theyre not. Katie, correct me if im wrong, but as far as i know and what ive read, and not just from sources within nbc, we dont know if there have been any Jury Consultants actually in the courtroom, right, on either side . Well, we do know we do know that trumps team had Jury Consultants. Whether or not they were physically located inside the courtroom was not a requirement. They could be communicating with the defense team from outside the courtroom. More importantly we dont know if the prosecution has one. Sometimes its an expense that just cannot be afforded by the government or even more importantly a state agency like the d. A. s office in manhattan. We dont know if the prosecution has been doing it. You know, chris, very quickly, you dont necessarily need a Jury Consultant to be able to do this. Alans amazing and does his job impeccably well, but if you dont have the resources you can do your own research in terms of the social media history e et cetera, in terms of the background of these jurors. Alan, im going to make an assumption that going into this, going back to the idea, you only need one juror to hang this thing, right . Only one to say they have questions, they dont know that this has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt. They know going in, the defense knows going in, who the likely juror or jurors might be . Thats what they hope to do, and thats how they try to structure the questioning and reviewing the process and determiing personalities of the jurors and what it is about their backgrounds, what they do for a living. Theres a whole wide variety of considerations that come into play when youre helping not really select a jury but deselect a jury because your job as a Jury Consultant, or at least one of them early on is to make sure that if jurors are going to be biased against your client, you need to make sure that theyre given the opportunity to express that bias, and then you try to get rid of that juror for cause or ultimately you might have to use a Preemptory Challenge on that juror. You are looking for jurors who are negatively disposed to your client and your case at that early stage of jury selection. That parts done. Theres nothing you can do about it. The jurys seated. Tell me, alan, assuming that theyve kept on a Jury Consultant, what are they listening for, and if theyre not in the courtroom, can they watch . How important is it for someone to be in the courtroom to actually see the jurors, how theyre reacting, sort of what how much attention, for example, they pay to donald trump . Right, and its important to dispel the notion that Jury Consultants think that they can read minds or we stalk jurors. None of that happens. We have to rely on reporting from what goes on transcripts are certainly valuable, but if you can be in the courtroom, its certainly an important factor. Once a jury is seated, litigation, Jury Consultants, they bridge the gap between lawyer and jury, in a sense, most of the Jury Consultants have a background in psychological, persuasion. And so the key is to understand how the lawyers arguments are going to be received, what words should be used, what themes should be put forward. Lawyers are so immersed in their case they often overlook these are lay people. Lay people are going to be deciding the key questions in a case, so Jury Consultants have to empower the lawyers to make the right arguments and then during the questioning of witnesses, they want to make sure that certain questions might get asked, and also if Jury Consultants can be in the courtroom, yes, they will try to see pick up on things, whats going on with the jurors. Its a difficult task to try to know exactly what theyre thinking, but i think with experience, you can understand how certain testimony is received by jurors in a case. We hear often, tristan that prosecutors and katie mentioned this that prosecutors dont have the money that a defense team has to have a Jury Consultant. Does that put them often at a disadvantage . Maybe yes, maybe no. I think that the prosecutors, you know, good prosecutors have been doing it for long enough that a lot of them have a good sense. Theyre in a whole office with a lot of other people who do those kinds of cases all the time. You know, put it this way, a Prosecutors Office does go to trial. Defense lawyers, even a good defense firm, they try never to go to trial, so they may actually not have as many trials as we might think that they would have. Theyre trying to get people to plead. Theyre trying to get some kind of settlement or some kind of other arrangement to get their client off the hook, like a really good white collar criminal defense attorney, theyre not necessarily going to trial all the time if they can help it. Somebody in the Prosecutors Office is always going to trial, so youve got a wealth of Trial Experience there. So i would not say that just because they cant hire a Jury Consultants, they dont have folks that are veterans of the jury process and veterans of being in trial and being able to suss that out. I want to read something, we have people who are just sort of putting in color, alan, and it was about specifically what happened today, boves cross has been sharp, tight, and to the point. Whether or not he has poked sufficient holes in peckers story is yet to be seen, but again, he is looking to convince just one juror. If youre there, again, not a mind reader, but can you tell when something has connected generally . Listening to the answers and watching the witness, i think a lot of us can have a good sense of how its being received by the jury. And i think what the what the questioning is intended to do is theyre trying to drive a wedge between, yes, theres some sordid behavior and underhanded antics on the part of this the trump world, but its completely different than what the legal question is in the case. So thats what the defense has to do on Cross Examination. It questions mr. Pecker about other clients that he did this for before trump, and that he even did this with trump before the election, so thats just what they have tad, and i think its also crucial from a Defense Perspective and from a Jury Perspective that you want to make sure that the demeanor this is from if the demeanor changes from direct to cross, then the jurors are going to think, well, then theres something that maybe makes me think that he was coached in the beginning or he has an agenda, so thats something that we would keep an eye on and we would wonder how the jury would react to this testimony. Alan tuerkheimer, katie phang, thank you both. Tristan, youre sticking around. Appreciate that. Up next, david pecker may have been first out of the gate, but there is a long list of witnesses who are to come and who are, no doubt, keeping a close eye on how he is attempting to balance his longstanding friendship with donald trump and telling the truth. And hours ago, President Biden agreeing to something trump has been asking for that could have a major impact on the race for president , well explain after a quick break. K b. If you have moderate to Severe Ulcerative Colitis or crohns disease. Put it in check with rinvoq. A once daily pill. When symptoms tried to take control, i got rapid relief. And reduced fatigue with rinvoq. Check. When flares kept trying to slow me down. I got lasting steroid free remission. With rinvoq. Check. And when my doctor saw damage,. Rinvoq helped visibly reduce damage of the intestinal lining. Check. For both uc and crohns rapid symptom relief. Lasting steroid free remission. And visibly reduced damage. Check. Check. And check. Rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. Serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin; heart attack, stroke, and gi tears occurred. People 50 and older with a Heart Disease risk factor have an increased risk of death. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. Put uc and crohns in check. And keep them there with rinvoq. Ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq and learn how abbvie can help you save. My name is caron and im from brooklyn. I work for the city of new york as a police administrator. I oversee approximately 20 people and my memory just has to be sharp. And i realized, my memory was just changing. I did my own research and i decided to give prevagen a try. My memory became much sharper. I remembered more ive been taking prevagen for four years now. Its a lifechanger. Prevagen. At stores everywhere without a prescription. woman ugh, of course it stops loading at the best part. Its a lifechanger. tony hale you need verizon. Get their crazy powerful network out here, and get six months of disney bundle on them vo stream with six months of disney bundle on us. And watch it all on the new Samsung Galaxy s24 , also on us. Only on verizon. David pecker is just the fist in what is expected to be a long line of witnesses who on the surface at least might seem conflicted. Pecker has described donald trump has a mentor and a friend, but for the prosecution, he is a key part of the story they hope will lead to trumps conviction, and under oath, pecker and those who follow him are compelled to tell the truth, even if it hurts trumps case, of course, and even if they consider themselves to be loyal to him. Joining us now, david jolly, former republican congressman from florida and an msnbc political analyst. Vaughn and tristan are still here with us. Vaughn, youve covered donald trump for a very long time, and for every Michael Cohen who i guess you could say has turned, there is a david pecker who says basically i think hes a great guy. What is it about the people in trump world that make them so devoted to donald trump or what is it about donald trump . Reporter what is it about donald trump is a good question, chris. Donald trump has staying power in so many ways. Well, you may lose an election like the one in 2020, you also continue to have a following that is indignant upon any efforts to undermine him or the prestige of the Trump Organization or the political following, one that did garner more than 80 million votes in 2020, and folks are not naive to that, so even when donald trump loses an election or endorses candidates in 2022 who do lose, he continues to hold power to a great extent and also financial power, and that is what Michael Cohen for all those years had a full understanding of. Hope hicks is going to take the stand here as a witness, and she has never met the ire of donald trump. Those individuals who have caught his frustration are those who have attempted to sustain away from him, and when those individuals do step away from him, donald trump like bill barr, you are all but gone from his orbit here, and thats where folks like Allen Weisselberg whos not been attacked by donald trump, but look where Allen Weisselberg is, hes serving time at rikers jail because he never testified against him. Perjured himself under his own guilty plea as part of His Civil Fraud Trial just last year. So despite being in the late 70s now serving time in jail, this is for donald trump and his orbit a clear line that no matter how many years pass, those who are in his orbit now are those ones who i would contend are the greatest of loyalists. They know what they are a part of. Theyve seen whats happened to those who worked in his previous campaigns, in his previous white house, and those that are making the commitment to him now have a clear understanding that to cross him would be the end of their political relevance to donald trump. Including one whos in court with him now, we are told, who just yesterday was indicted in arizona, but thats another story for another day. So david, coming out of court yesterday, this was Donald Trumps review of the trial again yesterday. Today was breathtaking that this room you saw what went on, it was breathtaking and amazing testimony. This is a trial that should not have ever happened. This is a case that should never have been filed, and it was really an incredible an incredible day. Amazing testimony. The only testimony was david peckers, and given that most analysts believe it set up the prosecutions case well, you wonder what he was so pleased about. Is it just that david pecker said at the very end of the day in direct testimony that he was a mentor and a friend . Yeah, chris, i see that differently. I see trump always the showman reaching for a narrative that hes trying narrative that hes trying to sell, but he even realizes in that moment, he doesnt have anything to sell. For people who have said trump looks weak and feeble and hollow, thats what i see in this moment. He is always going to try to project a counter narrative, alternative facts. Tell you that its great when its really not. Its not going great for donald trump, and that was a man trying to convince himself and convince america it is. Look, we are one week into this. The longer this goes and the more the other trials begin to pop up, i think theres some hard questions to ask. What does donald trump look like going into a Republican Convention after months and months of facing legal scrutiny and trials like this. America could be looking at a very different former president. David pecker, one of the things he testified about was this highly unusual meeting at trump tower in 2017 when trump was president elect. His future secretary of state, his chief of staff, the fbi director james comey, all in the same room with the publisher of the National Enquirer and trump is thanking pecker for bearing the mcdougal story, and apparently made a joke about him knowing all of his secrets. Even as a breaker of enormous that trump is understating it, what do you make of that . David . Well, what i make of it is a bit of vanities, right . Donald trump himself always finds the Silver Lining and thinks that pecker might be doing his bidding even though hes sinking his legal case in this environment. Its also clear, as you were talking with vaughn, the people who were closest with donald trump who are either breaking with them or staying with him as theyre telling the real truth. To me, it is affirming that the number of people of voters who just accept donald trump for who he is. Someone who aggrandizes his own selfworth or somebody they recognize for his failures. Many of trumps relationships are relationships of convenience and mutual benefit. You see that in the business world. You see it in the political world and a number of voters across the country who have never met him say i like what i get from this guy, and i might vote for him to return to the white house. David jolly, Vaughn Hillyard, thank you both. This morning, donald trump complained about being stuck in a courtroom for his criminal trial. At the same time hes planning to hit the Campaign Trail next week. He will spend his day off wednesday holding backtoback rallies in wisconsin and michigan. He may be getting closer to something hes saying he wants, a debate with president joe biden. Heres the president as he talked to howard stern just a couple of hours ago. I dont know if youre going to debate your opponent. I am somewhere. I dont know when. Im happy to debate him. Joining us now, nbcs dasha burns, two interesting stories there, trump on the Campaign Trail, and joe biden says, yep, bring it on, well debate. Interesting and related stories, chris, because while trump is in the courtroom and hes been using this, of course, to get media attention. Hes very good at capitalizing on those moments, it is extremely limiting. He hasnt been able to go out and campaign. He hasnt been on the fundraising circuit, and this will be the first time next wednesday when he heads to michigan and wisconsin that he has used that middle of weekday off to actually go and hit those battleground states. This is an attempt for him to be able to finally talk to voters, to contrast his records with that of President Biden who has been out on the Campaign Trail, who has been doing that counter programming and saying, hey, im out here talking to the people while my opponent is in court. So this is his opportunity to talk about the economy, to talk about immigration, according to the campaign. Those are topics hell spend time on. When it comes to a debate with joe biden, this is something the Trump Campaign has been pushing for. They want it. They feel like the contrast of the two of them on the stage will be beneficial to former president trump. Remember, even though trump is not that much younger than joe biden, our polling has consistently showed that voters arent as concerned about the impacts of trumps age as they are that of President Biden, and so well see when that actually happens. But the Trump Campaign for right now thinks thats a win for them. Well see whether or not thats the case if and when we see the two of them debate, chris. Dasha burns, thank you. In the next hour of Chris Jansing reports, well speak to someone who has known the Trump Hush Money Judge for 15 years. Well talk about how judge merchan could approach the upcoming gag order, among other things. Stay close. More Chris Jansing reports right after this. More Chris Jansing reports right after this my frequent heartburn had me taking antacid after antacid all day long but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. For one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. One pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. Okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. Yay woo hoo ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. And ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. vo Verizon Small Business days are here. With 30 grams april 22nd to the 28th. Tein. Get a free tech check. And special offers. Like a free 5g phone, when you switch. No tradein required. Partner with our experts today. im getting vaccinated with pfizers Pneumococcal Pneumonia vaccine. So am i. Because im at risk for Pneumococcal Pneumonia. Come on. I already got a pneumonia vaccine, but im asking about the added protection of prevnar 20®. If youre 19 or older with certain chronic conditions like asthma, diabetes, copd, or Heart Disease, or are 65 or older, you are at increased risk for Pneumococcal Pneumonia. Prevnar 20® is approved in adults to help prevent infections from 20 strains of the bacteria that cause Pneumococcal Pneumonia. In just one dose. Dont get prevnar 20® if youve had a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or its ingredients. Adults with weakened Immune Systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. The most common side effects were pain and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, fatigue, headache, and joint pain. I want to be able to keep my plans. I dont want to risk ending up in the hospital with Pneumococcal Pneumonia. Thats why i chose prevnar 20®. Ask your doctor or pharmacist about the Pfizer Vaccine for Pneumococcal Pneumonia. screams bleeding gums are serious, jamie. Dr. Garcia . Woah. Theyre a sign of bacterial infection. Crest gum detoxifys antibacterial fluoride works below the gumline to help heal gums and stop bleeding. Crest saves the day. Crest. If youre living with moderate to Severe Plaque Psoriasis or active psoriatic arthritis, symptoms can sometimes take you out of the moment. Now theres skyrizi, so you can show up with clearer skin. And show it off. Nothing is everything with skyrizi, you could take each step with 90 clearer skin. And if you have psoriatic arthritis, skyrizi can help you get moving with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. And skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. Serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. Thanks to skyrizi, theres nothing like clearer skin and less joint pain, and that means everything. Nothing is everything ask your doctor about how skyrizi could help with your skin or joint symptoms. Learn how abbvie could help you save. My name is oluseyi with your skin or joint symptoms. And some of my favorite moments throughout my life are watching sports with my dad. Now, i work at comcast as part of the team that created our ai highlights technology, which uses ai to detect the major plays in a sports game. Giving millions of fans, like my dad and me, new ways of catching up on their favorite sport. It is good to be back with you for this second hour of Chris Jansing reports. Shoring up testimony after the defense tried to pick it apart with a lunch break in Donald Trumps Hush Money Trial. Almost over, and the jury is set to get back in roughly 15 minutes. The prosecution will continue its redirect with the witness who has laid the ground work for the entire prosecution case. Former National Enquirer ceo david pecker. The defense spent hours trying to trip him up, catch him in contradictions, even introducing several instances where they say peckers recollection of key events had changed over time. But the prosecution got the last word before lunch, getting pecker