Transcripts For MSNBCW Jose 20240703

Good morning, 11 00 a. M. Eastern, 8 00 a. M. Pacific. Im jose diazbalart. Right now testimony has resumed in former president Donald Trumps new york hush money trial. Former National Enquirer publisher david pecker is back on the Witness Stand Being questioned by trump attorney boefy. Prosecutors wrapped up their questioning yesterday by asking about the tabloid purchasing the story of Karen Mcdougal, another woman who claims to have an affair with trump. Trump denies having an affair with mcdougal. Pecker testified about how trump sought to block stories that could hurt his campaign. With us now to talk more about this, nbc news correspondent Vaughn Hillyard outside the courthouse in lower manhattan, Glen Kirschner, former federal prosecutor and host of the Justice Matters podcast, Kimberly Atkins store, boston globe columnist and cohost of the sisters inlaw podcast, and danny cevallos, criminal Defense Attorney. Glen, kimberly and danny are msnbc contributors. Vaughn, what has been going on right now inside that courtroom . Reporter right, jose, there have been multiple efforts by the defense team in front of this jury during its Cross Examination of david pecker, the long time publisher of National Enquirer, who is the crucial witness to the prosecution as they build out their case of alleging this conspiracy between the likes of donald trump with Michael Cohen and the National Enquirer to suppress the stories of individuals like Stormy Daniels and Karen Mcdougal. And what you are hearing from emil bovy, the one executing this Cross Examination of pecker is multipronged effort here. In one of those facets of this is by trying to undercut the idea of this conspiracy that was at play, we have heard repeatedly about Karen Mcdougal through the prosecutions line of questioning of pecker and now what is coming up here is the questioning around Stormy Daniels, and whether david pecker had any intention to be involved in an effort to silence her story. And just part of this exchange, emil bovy, Donald Trumps attorney saying to pecker, quote, you did not consider Stormy Daniels story to be part of any agreement you had in august 2015, is that correct . To which he responds, thats correct. You wanted nothing to do with it, is that right . David pecker responded, thats right. Of course, at the heart of the charges here, falsifying Business Records, is specifically the Stormy Daniels payment and the reimbursement of Michael Cohen by donald trump. And what david pecker is now saying is that he never intended to be a part of the Stormy Daniels story here in the first place. Another aspect of this here is the fact that they are going through some of the prior meetings that david pecker had testified about. One of them that theyre currently discussing now is david pecker on January Of 2017 walking into a trump tower meeting, just weeks before donald trump was sworn in as president , a meeting that included the likes of Reince Priebus, sean spicer and james comey and theyre getting into the gritty details of exactly what david peckers role is a part of all of these meetings was and the extent to which donald trump was using these opportunities to ensure the silence of some of these key figures. Jose . This is a continuing issue, this meeting and as well as others. And im wondering, lets talk about there has been a focus this morning on mcdougal, specifically, Stormy Daniels is now appearing in the picture, but then there are meetings, specifically that meeting in Trumps Office in trump tower, what is the importance of that . That david pecker was killed in the catch and kill stories including Karen Mcdougal and other catch and kill stories, that he was at meetings when these were discussed, but when it came to Stormy Daniels, he backed out, for a reason that actually was, you know, really silly in that he was never reimbursed or never paid back and he didnt want to get involved with a porn star according to his own testimony because of contracts he had with walmart. Thats why the people are calling him. What the defense is trying to do in Cross Examination is create separation. Okay, there may have been this Karen Mcdougal arrangement there may have been this 2015 meeting, there may have been this catch and kill with a doorman, but you were not involved in the whole Stormy Daniels saga, so therefore you dont have valuable information about that. Look, there are not a lot of options for Cross Examination. Ive been thinking about it entirely during his direct testimony. Where would the defense go . And they can only go to the classics, his ability to remember, his moative in that he has an agreement or Immunity Deal to the extent he has an Immunity Deal with the prosecutors, and then specific to this, his lack of knowledge maybe primarily dealing only with Michael Cohen, and meetings that really had to do with Something Else and not Stormy Daniels. They need to create that separation with the Stormy Daniels transactions to show that maybe pecker doesnt know that much about the Stormy Daniels deal. Trump has not been charged in connection to the payoff of Karen Mcdougal. Why is it being brought up at his trial . And why was the prosecution mentioning it early on . Yes, so, what the prosecutors are doing, jose, is they are setting the table. What theyre doing is theyre showing that donald trump, together with Michael Cohen and david pecker were involved in a conspiracy to conceal this information, ultimately to violate or at least the product of it was a violation of Campaign Finance laws. David pecker admitted as much. He knew he was doing it. So, think about this. Even though these charges arent directly at issue, because the prosecutors will move on to the Stormy Daniel hush money payments and the falsifying Business Records to cover them up, thats whats coming sometime soon. What it shows is that donald trump, david pecker and Michael Cohen were happy to enter into a conspiratorial agreement to ultimately hide this information and it was a violation of Campaign Finance laws. So, this is Table Setting this is like an appetizer to what will become the main course. And, you know, danny is exactly right, one of the ways they can go after david pecker on cross is to say, wait a minute, you have a Nonprosecution Agreement, in other words, you did wrong, you violated the law, but youre not required to plead guilty to it, except responsibility and testify against donald trump. The prosecutors gave you a pass so youre going to say anything that the prosecutors might want you to say to incriminate donald trump because you really do value that Nonprosecution Agreement you got. In the hands of a skilled criminal Defense Attorney, like a danny cevallos, there can be a lot of points scored before the jury with this kind of a Nonprosecution Agreement arrangement. Kimberly, how do you see the story being told so far . Yeah, i think that this is exactly what right in terms of setting the table about how this took place with someone who was at the table. I also think with david pecker, an important part of that story is, remember, paying hush money in itself and certaining into an agreement to pay hush money itself isnt a crime. This is something david pecker has admitted hes done with donald trump and others for some time. Youre going to see the story change when it comes to Stormy Daniels as to how it has been paid. A foundation being laid out, pecker asked how would it be paid, he was told it would be paid by the big guy, but then enter Michael Cohen, and hes paying it and there is not the reimbursement and thats how you get to the falsification of the Business Records because, of course, at that point, donald trump was a federal candidate for office. And thats when you get into the Campaign Finance violations. So, some of the minutia or the details that are coming out now may not make sense, but once the story is put all together, it will form according to the prosecutors the basis of the crimes for which donald trump is charged. And, vaughn, Michael Cohens name has already been brought up quite a bit during the questioning so far. What is that about . Right. To the point about this being a sustained effort here and one that ultimately the defense will make sense of here in a key as if eliminate of that is Michael Cohens credibility and one example that was brought up here in the last few minutes was a back and forth, going back before the 2016 election, in which the prosecution, i should say Donald Trumps defense team was asking david pecker about a side conversation he had with Michael Cohen in which Michael Cohen allegedly wanted to meet up with mark cuban and have the National Enquirer through david pecker send a photographer to go and film and take photographs of the two meeting up for the purposes of donald trump being envious of Michael Cohen, meeting up with mark cuban, and that just hits at the credibility issue here that the defense team is trying to set up for the prosecution and that michael that Michael Cohen was not viewed as somebody who was thought highly of in the Business Community and also somebody who is doing whatever it took, even if it meant having National Enquirer send a photographer to go and take a photograph of him that this was somebody who could say a lot of things, yet when it comes to actual execution was not necessarily the most reliable or somebody that had the greatest voracity behind his stories and his claims. This is a defense taking a shot at Michael Cohen in a preemptive manner. They have to. And theyre going to throughout this trial. And thats why the people are lining up documents and witnesses that have corroborated Michael Cohens story. Everyone knows that Michael Cohen has credibility issues. You know who knows that . The people. Thats what they said at the outset. Theyre diffusing that bomb on the front end. It is a common tactic. If you have a cooperating witness and often cooperating witnesses have lots of credibility issues, you get out ahead of it if youre the prosecution. So it doesnt look like youre hiding it when it comes out on cross. It lands with a fizzle when the defense brings it up because the prosecution has been bringing it up the entire time. And to some degree, Cross Examination of david pecker is he is like a cooperating witness. He has credibility issues too, just not the same as Michael Cohen. Take a step back here, the peoples one of the best witnesses that theyre asking the jury to believe is the publisher of the National Enquirer and he spent days testifying about how they got stories and published stories that were less than perfectly journalistically accurate. And cooperating witnesses can be really believable when they take the stand and take an ownership of what they have been credible about and what theyre not credible about. When theyre forth coming about their problems and what they say happened, they can be believable and can overcome those credibility issues. Both Michael Cohen can too, depending on how he testifies. Hes got a lot more credibility issues than david pecker. I think some may be surprised to learn through this process that paparazzi were being sent to meetings when there was no interest in it. And maybe that the you know, martians maybe werent real. Interesting also to see, vaughn, how right now there is that attempt by the defense to damage the credibility of david pecker, specifically on things he said about donald trump and whether donald trump thanked him or did not thank him. Right, that january 2017 meeting that were talking about at trump tower when we were first got on the show, jose, in which david pecker testified that he went to trump tower there, and just after a meeting that donald trump had with the likes of james comey, Reince Priebus and sean spicer there, two weeks before he was sworn in as president , david pecker replaced all the individuals and had testified this week that that is where donald trump had thanked him for purchasing the rights to Dino The Doorman story as well as Karen Mcdougals story. That was previous testimony of david pecker, just this week, in answering questions from the prosecution. But now, presently, under Cross Examination, by Donald Trumps defense team, they are going back to old transcripts that david pecker, when he was talking with federal investigators, back in july of 2018, contended that in that very meeting, at trump tower january 2017, that he did not actually recall donald trump thanking him or ami for purchasing Dino The Doormans story or Karen Mcdougals story. And that is the current line of questioning that is currently under way of david pecker asking him about that distinction of why back in 2018, just one year after this supposed meeting, he couldnt recall the fact that he had been thanked by donald trump, but now here in the year 2024, he is saying that actually i was thanked by donald trump for purchasing the rights to those stories. So, again, this is hitting at the credibility or at least the recallability of david pecker as such a crucial witness for the prosecution. Everyone, stay with us. Up next, prosecutors say trump keeps racking up gag order violations. Were going to take a look at why judge merchan hasnt issued a ruling on that yet. Plus, what the Supreme Court justices had to say about president ial immunity and what it could mean for trumps federal election trial. Were back in 60 seconds. Youre watching jose diazbalart reports on msnbc. Es youre watching jose diazbalart reports on msnbc. One purchased equals one donated. 100 million donations and counting. Visit bombas. Com and get 20 off your first order. Weeds. They have you surrounded. Take your lawn back with Scotts Turf Builder Triple Action it gets three jobs done at once kills weeds. Prevents crabgrass. And keeps it growing strong. Download the my lawn app today for Lawn Care Tips and customized plans. Feed your lawn. Feed it. Theres Nothing Better than a subway series footlong. Except when you add a new footlong sidekick. Like the ultimate bmt with the new footlong pretzel. Nothing like a sidekick that steps up in crunch time. [laughing] not cool man. Every Epic Footlong deserves the perfect sidekick. 15 past the hour. Right now, the court is in a break in Donald Trumps Hush Money Criminal Trial in new york city. David pecker, the former publisher of the National Enquirer, has been on the stand as were still awaiting a decision from judge Merchan On Whether Trump violated the gag order in this case. Back with us, Glen Kirschner, Kimberly Atkins store and danny cevallos. I want to talk about yesterday, the prosecution cited four new alleged violations by trump of the gag order, including two recent attacks on Michael Cohen, a recent interview where trump referred to the jury as 95 democrats. And calling the prosecutions first witness david pecker who was still testifying, quote, a nice guy. How do you think the judge would consider these new alleged violations of the gag order and why do you think it has taken him so long to decide on the initial series . Yeah, i think that, jose, the second answer is really to the first. I think judge merchan here is moving very deliberately and carefully. The last thing he wants is for his ruling, when it comes to whether or not donald trump is held in contempt and what that penalty is if so to be the basis of appeal that could delay the trial and certainly not cast doubt on amount to any sort of reversible error in the end. So hes moving carefully here. What im likely to what i think will happen is well see the judge move incrementally. He will take into account all of the alleged violations up to that point, and he will issue some sort of order. So far the prosecution has not asked for any sort of imprisonment or detention, but it could escalate to that point. I dont think i think we have seen from the past that monetary fines alone arent enough. You can hear my dog agrees with my analysis there. Sorry about that. No, thats great. So, danny, a few things, the judge scheduled a hearing on the gag order for next thursday, six days from now, after deciding not to rule on it this week. Why do you think judge merchan has decided to do this so far and then also, take us into an average court case, which this is not, but the issue of gag orders, their violations, decisions on gag orders that are violated, how normally does that work . But after the issue of the six days from now, merchans decision . Merchan appears to be scheduling gag orders by the week and that may have been a wise choice because if you schedule them out a week or so, then you just roll together all the alleged violations because theyre on an ongoing basis. But, since he hasnt decided on the first gag order violation hearing, that, of course, will govern how he rules in the future as to the next gag order hearing. But it may be the case that he has to Just Keep Holding these, maybe once a week, for all the alleged violations. And the violations run the gamut, some you saw on the board, i can see both sides of saying david pecker is nice. I can see Glen Kirschner arguing nice is something you say in organized crime, to suggest you better testify the way we want you to testify. Messing with witnesses is really delicate business. Courts have to protect witnesses and jurors alike. But at the same time, every gag order implicates constitutional concerns and constitutional concerns that are crashing into each other. You have the First Amendment right of a party to speak, you have the need to have order in the courtroom, and protect witnesses and jurors. You have the publics right to a fair trial. You have a lot of different concerns. So gag orders are always constitutionally suspect and a difficult call. Thats why Justice Merchan is taking his time, because he knows it is an important decision, and it has got to get right. Glen, the fact that maybe trump was asked questions during an interview about, for example, lets say david pecker and responds, is that in any way different than from using his social media to say this witness is or is not a nice guy . Where do you think the line could be drawn here by the judge . Yeah, i dont think it is a question, jose, of whether judge merchan will hold donald trump in Criminal Contempt for violating the gag order. I think it is how many counts of Criminal Contempt and then what were all waiting to see is what will the sanction be. The first sanction may be a money sanction, but it may be accompanied by a stern warning. Do it again, defendant trump, and i will order you into a jail cell for some period of time, but there is another consequence of donald trump being held in Criminal Contempt for violating a court order and it arises in all of Donald Trumps criminal cases, because donald trump is on release in four criminal cases. And the condition of release in his cases is that he not commit any violation of state, federal or local law, the minute hes held in Criminal Contempt by judge merchan, he has violated the conditions of release in all of his cases. Quickly, i have a copy of his transcript from his first court appearance, his Arraignment Hearing in his d. C. Case and here is what the judge told donald trump. Mr. Trump, your most important condition of release, sir, is that you not commit a state, federal or local crime while on release. If you were to do so, a warrant may be issued for your arrest, your conditions of release may be revoked and you may be held pending trial in this case. Once hes held in Criminal Contempt, hes violated his release conditions in all of his cases the question becomes what will all of the judges do as a result of that violation . So, glen, this is an important point youre bringing up. So, if merchan says, for example, yes, you know, Criminal Contempt because of the gag order violations, but im going to fine you a thousand dollars, you know, 9,000 total, lets say. It doesnt have any bearing on what the other court cases have as far as an agreement with trump. And they could act unilaterally and maybe jail trump themselves . Absolutely. Because they will not be imposing a punishment or a sanction for the Criminal Contempt that donald trump committed in new york. But what they can use, that Criminal Contempt finding to do is to say you violated my conditions of release by committing a New York State offense and now im going to revisit whether i should leave you on release in my case, or detain you pending trial. Im not saying the rule of law will finally rise up and be applied equally to donald trump, but there is certainly the opportunity for that to happen. And the opportunity three times over. Exactly. Everyone, stay with us. Coming up, were going to talk about the Supreme Court, the justices, how they may be leaning as we await their decision about trumps claim. He should have absolute immunity from prosecution in that case. And still ahead, well go back to the courthouse in new york for a look at who may be taking the stand after david pecker. Youre watching jose diazbalart reports on msnbc. Diazbalart reports on msnbc. And the preventive treatment of Episodic Migraine in adults. Its the only migraine medication that helps treat prevent, all in one. Dont take if allergic to nurtec odt. Allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. Most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. People depend on me. Without a migraine, i can be there for them. Talk to your doctor about nurtec odt today. Skincarving next level hydration . New neutrogena hydro boost water cream. A vital boost of nine times more hydration to boost your skins barrier for quenched, dewy skin thats full of life. 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We could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. Their connection is unreal. And we could all unexperience this whole session. Okay, thats uncalled for. 25 past the hour. Were following the ongoing trial in Donald Trumps Hush Money Case which is taking a short morning break. This as the u. S. Supreme court is considering a consequential question which could have huge impact on the other cases against him and beyond that on future president s. The justices are now weighing whether trump has absolute immunity from criminal prosecution from acts he alleges were part of his official duties while president. Brought those to you yesterday, Supreme Court arguments, they were fascinating, werent they . The justices seemed skeptical that the president had absolute immunity from prosecution. The justices speaking about the gravity of the case before them. I understand that, i proo appreciate that, you also appreciate were writing a rule for the ages. As you indicated this case has huge implications for the presidency, the future of the presidency, for the future of the country in my view. With us now to talk more about this, nbc news correspondent Yamiche Alcindor and Glen Kirschner. How soon could the Supreme Court rule on this . It is a key question. From what we understand there are a number of Different Things that the Supreme Court could do. They could kick it back to the district court, which would then, of course, make this sort of be delayed which is what donald trump wants. They could also rule in june, and thats when we expect them to rule in june, around the summer that this is all sort of not going to be something theyre going to go forward with in the president ial immunity in the way that trumps lawyers want it. It is just not going to go forward. Whatever they decide, if there is an actual trial, lets say they do side with jack smith as a special counsel, trial would start about three months after that, and it is estimated that a trial could take up to 12 weeks. All this timing is critical, of course, because were now 192 days away from november 5th, election day. It is not a lot of time here and the justices in some ways really understand that. As you said, you played that clip of neil gorsuch saying whatever they write, theyre writing a rule for the ages. Over and over again we heard the justices and lawyers talk about the stakes of this case. So it will be really interesting to see what happens as election day comes upon us. Yamiche alcindor, thank you very much. Glen, trumps lawyer conceded during the arguments that some of the acts that trump is accused of were not official acts. Here is an exchange. The petitioner turned to a private attorney, was willing to spread false claims of Election Fraud to spearhead his challenges to the election results. Private . Petitioner conspired with another private attorney who caused the filing in court of verification signed by petitioner that contained false allegations to support a challenge. That also sounds private. Justice kagan had that same kind of line of questioning with trumps attorney. Glen, how do you see that line of questioning and what does it tell you about the possible decisions that both Coney Barrett and kagan could have on this . Yeah, great question, jose. That was an important concession by Donald Trumps attorney. And what it means is that there is an opportunity for the trial to move forward, even if only on those things that the attorney conceded were not official acts. So, even under Donald Trumps theory, as articulated through his attorney, the prosecution could proceed on those nonofficial acts. Of course, that would only be giving jack smith half a loaf with respect to the crimes that he has indicted and the crimes that should be resolved with a trial. But here is the challenge. All of these discussions are purely academic because even if Donald Trumps Defense Attorney agreed, yeah, the charges with relating to these nonofficial acts could move forward, they cant move forward until the Supreme Court gives judge Tanya Chutkan the case back so she can move forward whether on half of the charges or all of the charges. So we will be treading justice water until we get something from the Supreme Court that indicates judge chutkan can now put her case back on the trial track and move in the direction of a trial. But, glen, so who and how would be deciding what were private and what were public actions during the Trump Presidency . In other words, that would have to be decided, right . It would. The devil is definitely in those particular details. So i see the Supreme Court doing one of really three things. One, ruling that a president has complete immunity against prosecution, he can commit all the crimes he wants against the american people. And he can never be prosecuted. I think the Majority Sentiment is they cant possibly do that, but at this point, im not going to put anything past the Supreme Court. The other could be a middle ground, they can say, listen, we need some court, some finder of fact, to decide what is an official act and what is not. Concretely, and the context of the facts of this case, so we will remand the case back to judge chutkan, to hold evidentiary hearings on that, and then once she has decided in her judgment what is official and whats not official, she will send the case back to us and then we can issue a complete opinion knowing what the factual landscape is, but, jose, that will take a very long time, so, i think any hopes of a trial before the upcoming election have been dashed at this point, the third option is they can just say, listen, there is no such thing as absolute president ial immunity, there is no support for it in the constitution, in the case law or in the federal statutes. Were giving the entire case back to judge chutkan and she can put it back on the trial track. Those are the three options i see the Supreme Court having. Glen, thank you so very much. Were showing right now just seconds ago the former president going back into the courtroom. The court judge set a break at about 11 15 a. M. Eastern time. So, 17 minutes ago. We see trump heading back into the courtroom. So, looks like the proceedings are going to get under way in just moments. We will, of course, keep you updated on that and a whole lot more. But, next, were going to go back into that courthouse as we await the trial to come back online. Plus, the politics of trumps trials. Why being stuck in a courtroom could exactly be what trump needs right now. Youre watching jose diazbalart reports on msnbc. Youre watching jose diazbalart reports on msnbc. I was born with wings, but psoriasis swooped in to clip them. It crushed my confidence. But no longer Will Psoriasis get a piece of me. I can love my skin again. With bimzelx. Only bimzelx targets and blocks il17a plus f to calm inflammation. I can control my plaques, and start getting myself back. 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While trump has slammed this case as election interference, veteran Republican Campaign strategist Stewart Stevens says being stuck in court could be exactly what trump needed. He writes in the new york times, quote, trial will afford mr. Trump the opportunity to define the essence of his candidacy, i am a victim. Joining us now, brendan buck, former press secretary to boehner and ryan, also an msnbc political analyst, and Symone Sanders townsend, cohost of the weekend here on msnbc. Im looking forward to that show. She also previously served as Chief Spokesperson for Vice President harris. This trial is already changing how trump is forced to campaign. He stopped to greet Construction Workers outside the new jpmorgan building yesterday, he went to a bodega on monday. How do you see the spectacle of the trial shaping the race . Donald trump never struggled to get attention for himself. I guess hes doing that again. I have to disagree with stewart on this. I dont believe that this is helpful in any way for donald trump to be spending his days in a courtroom. Yes, he likes to play victim, but were not in the primary anymore. Hes able to rile up republicans and dispatch his primary opponents pretty easily, but now were in a general election, and our own nbc polling has shown the biggest vulnerability that donald trump has in a general election are these indictments, are these court cases. And if this is the context in which were seeing donald trump every day, him walking in and out of a courtroom, that does not help him, while, you know, if it limits his ability to go on offense against joe biden who has plenty of vulnerabilities himself and trying to do what he can, standing outside, riffing against biden, but, we have wall to wall coverage of donald trump being alleged to have paid off hush money. Thats not helpful for him in any context. Symone, is there any context by which the Biden Campaign could respond to this changing Campaign Style . Yeah, i mean, i think we saw the response, right . While donald trump is in a courtroom this week, the president was in florida, talking about the abortion ban, the sixweek abortion ban that is about to go into effect next week in that state, and also the broader implications of the Healthcare Crisis that is confronting women all over this country because the guy in the courtroom supported the overturning of roe v. Wade, via the dobbs decision. We have seen the president is able to go out and campaign while donald trump has to sit in a courtroom. I also agree with brendan and i love stewart. I disagree with him on this. I think donald trump looks diminished. He looks small. I worked a lot of president ial campaigns and ive served on campaigns for individuals, running for executive office roles, governor, lieutenant governor, mayor, you always want to make sure your candidate person looks, your person is looking like looking like an executive. Donald trump is not look president ial. Amid bad Fluorescent Lighting in the hallway as he rails against the machine and says his Constitutional Rights are being trampled on and saying he cant speak, even though there is a camera outside, he looked diminished. The grandeur, the smoke and mirror that has that donald trump has so adeptly i think marketed himself as, you know, this larger than life personality, he came out as a pro wrestler in 2016 at the rnc convention, now hes more like the wizard of oz, the wizard, the curtain has been pulled down and the wizard is exposed and the wizard is just a man. A man in a courtroom. Brendan, meanwhile, in pennsylvania, over 150,000 registered republicans voted for nikki haley in that states primary this week. Do you see anything in that . Yeah, i think you can draw a direct line from that to what is going on here. Hes reminding everybody what they dont like about him. We are in an era of significant negative partisanship and we know that both of these candidates have a lot of people who are on arent high on either of them. It is this situation where the more that somebody is in the media, the more we are talking about them, the more people are reminded they dont like him. And the same is true with joe biden. I think the more joe biden is out there, you see his numbers soften up a little bit. Certainly having donald trump every day reminding people what they dont like about him, that, you know, he was involved in all of these illicit affairs, he has questionable morals and ethics, that hes potentially a criminal for all the reasons why they didnt like him the first time, why they didnt vote for him last time. Usually you want to be able to dominate the conversation, you want to set the terms, be out in front shaping the conversation. This is a situation where i dont know that being out front helps you. It doesnt help you with people who you upset over the last eight years for frankly overturning everything your party stood for, the people who voted for nikki haley. One thing we can all agree on is that the weekend is the greatest show to be watching with symone and everybody else, so, thank you, guys, great seeing you. Great to see you, jose. Coming up, some colleges now taking more drastic measures as propalestinian protests grow on campuses around the country. 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Get their crazy powerful network out here, and get six months of disney bundle on them vo stream with six months of disney bundle on us. And watch it all on the new Samsung Galaxy s24 , also on us. Only on verizon. vo if you have graves disease. And itchy eyes, the truth may be even more uncomfortable. People with graves could also get thyroid eye disease, or ted, which may need a different doctor. Find a ted Eye Specialist at isitted. Com. 46 past the hour. Happening now, more propalestinian protests continue to spread across the country, from new york to california, University Students have calling for a ceasefire in gaza and for the universities to divest from israel. And just yesterday, the university of Southern California canceled its main graduation ceremony, citing safety concerns. Joining us from Columbia University here in new york is emilie ikeda. What are you seeing there today . Reporter hey, jose. The university overnight ramped up security as we continue to see these protests both on and off campus. We actually just saw one counterprotest calling for the release of hostages dispersed a matter of minutes ago. We have seen more than 40 protests and encampments erected since the one here at columbia was started and at times those protests, specifically clashes between propalestinian protesters and police turning tense. For instance, at Emerson College where today the Student Government plans to hold a vote of no confidence calling for the University President s resignation over arrests. We have seen the number of arrests enter into the hundreds, even more overnight in several states including ohio and connecticut. Overnight here at Columbia University, one of the faces, one of the leading voices in the movement here is walking back some comments and apologizing for saying in a video earlier this year that zionists deserve to die. I spoke with one person outside of here, columbia alumni, who says she believes the University Needs to be doing more to make jewish students feel protected and she is hoping to inspire some discourse today. Take a listen here. People are forgetting to communicate and create open dialogue for what they stand for. People are showing up here, ive seen interviews with people, even just on instagram, social media, people are showing up and they dont know what theyre showing up for. Youre standing at a rally, sitting at an encampment and you dont know why youre here . Lets have discourse. Lets be human. Reporter as you mentioned, jose, we know that usc announced it will cancel its main commencement ceremony. Many are wondering if other schools will be following suit. At columbia, theyre still planning on holding graduation, bleachers, stacks of chairs, signs, but many students are doubtful that will come to be, just given the environment right now. Remember, this is a class of people that graduated high school four years ago in 2020 and in many cases their graduation was canceled because of the pandemic. You can hear a lot of the discourse going back and forth all day and behind me now. A lot of discourse indeed. Emilie ikeda, take care. Thank you. Appreciate it. Up next, the latest from the court in new york. Plus, which witness could be next to testify. Youre watching jose diazbalart reports on msnbc. T. Youre watching jose diazbalart reports on msnbc. And watch it all on the new Samsung Galaxy s24 , also on us. Only on verizon. Imagine a future where plastic is not wasted. But instead remade over and over. Into the things that keep our food fresher, our families safer, and our planet cleaner. To help us get there, americas plastic makers are investing billions of dollars to create Innovative Products and new Recycling Technologies for sustainable change. Because when you push for smarter solutions, big things can happen. 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Joining us now, rehema ellis, back also with Kimberly Atkins stohr and danny savalis. Reporter in Pecker Points Out that agents came to his house with a warrant. Took his phone. There was a discussion about whether or not there would be prosecution. David pecker went into a Nonprosecution Agreement with the government. It seems like they are talking about, it was important for pecker to cooperate with the government. As you know, he has an Immunity Deal for his testimony here today. We are talking about in the sense of, its a good thing for you if theres not a prosecution of your company in exchange for your cooperation. That means, your company can be sold at a higher value. Pecker is disputing that, saying he does want this to be resolved. It seems like they are pointing out, pecker is a businessman and it was a Business Arrangement with the government, may have been a Business Arrangement, not just a Love Friendship with donald trump, but it was a Business Arrangement as well. One thing i should point out, just before lunch, the defense said they have an hour left of questioning for pecker. Then we go into redirect. Rehema, thank you very much. Trump said last night he would testify in his own defense if necessary. Before he said he would absolutely testify. Would him testifying, you think, help him in this case . Its interesting. Im going to take the under. Im going to take the the other day you said you thought it was a good chance he would testify, a lot of people were surprised that you would think that. Yes. Really, the odds are that he will not testify. Most criminal defendants dont testify. Sometimes the defense puts on no evidence, no witnesses at all, because they dont have the burden. I think over the decades, centuries of not putting your client on the stands, it comes from risk aversion, from fear. Dont put your client on the stand and be the story of someone who may have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Maybe you had a Shot At Closing Arguments that they didnt meet their burden. Then your client torpedos your case. With white collar defendants, they believe they can explain everything. What donald trump is talking about doing taking the stand, criminal Defense Attorneys is a common theme among white collar criminal defendants. They can explain it. They think they can go head to head with the prosecution. They dont get to ask questions. The prosecutor asks the questions. There may be bravado where he thinks he will testify. Only he knows for sure. He has a right to do so. His attorneys can recommend not testifying. We have seen in high profile cases in recent history, some criminal defendants are taking the stand. Here is the thing. If the facts are against you, sometimes it doesnt matter up with way or another. Its just a tremendous amount of risk. If the client can handle it, then take your chances. It is a scary moment. Kimberly, once crossexamination is done in this case, for example, with david pecker that they are going over the agreements, prosecution is going to have a chance to redirect. What does that mean . What do you think they will focus on . Yeah. Its just a chance to clear up anything that they thought was i dont want to say misleading. But to shore up their case after the defense does their questioning to clarify exactly the case that they are trying to make and leave that in the minds of the jury. Its probably especially important on a day like today, you are going into a weekend. You want to make sure that this basically is the opening of this case, this first Witness Lands Well and that they can close up any holes that the defense may have tried to poke in that case. As far as donald trump testifying, i will add this. We have seen with the evidence and the emotions for him to be in context over his violation of the gag order. Donald trump cant control himself. Yes, a lawyer cant prevent him from testifying. But i think given that, it would be malpractice for his attorneys to not strongly, strongly advise he not. Because everywhere he goes and meanders in any text, that opens it up to crossexamine him on every bit of it. That gives the prosecution a new series of avenues of questioning that right now they are not able to do. Exactly right. Almost anything is fair game once the client once the defendant takes the stand. In many ways, the jury is instructed you cannot take the defendants silence and hold it against him. Any Defense Attorney will tell you the loudest noise is a defendants silence. You can tell the jury that the prosecution has the burden and the defendant doesnt need to testify, but the reality is, every juror wants to hear from that guy at the defense table. Thank you so very much. That wraps up the hour for me. Im jose diazbalart. See you tomorrow night. Reach me jdbalart. Theres a promo for nbc nightly news. Andrea mitchell picks up with more news right now. Right now on Andrea Mitchell reports, fastmoving developments at the trump hush money trial. David pecker reveals more on the stand and the former president continues to lash out. It should be over. The case is over. You heard what they s