Transcripts For MSNBCW Ana 20240703

That does it for us this morning. Well be right back here tomorrow morning. Ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. Good morning and thank you for joining us. It is 10 00 eastern. Im Ana Cabrera Reporting from new york. We begin with the breaking news, donald troubles trumps Hush Money Trial is resuming this morning, the judge beginning with a hearing on the gag order in this case, which prevents trump from attacking witnesses and jurors among others. Prosecutors say trump has repeatedly violated that gag order, potentially as many as ten times. Lets bring in nbcs Vaughn Hillyard outside the new york city courthouse. Also with us, former u. S. Attorney and senior fbi official, Chuck Rosenberg, Danny Cevallos and kristen gibbons, great to have all of you here. What is the latest with the gag order under way . Reporter good morning, ana. The prosecution is currently before judge merchan going through each of these ten Social Media Posts, saying that donald trump is willfully and flagrantly violating the gag order that was placed on him at the beginning of the month, which precluded him from attacking witnesses and potential juro or jurors as it related to the criminal proceedings before him. We should note throughout the ten Social Media Posts over the course of the last week and a half, there are direct mentions of the likes of Michael Cohen and Stormy Daniels, but there is questions that are going to be left to judge merchan as to whether they actually violate the gag order placed on donald trump or not. Whether they actually have to do with the criminal proceedings before him. There was one other social media post from last week after the prosecution had brought forward the relief for donald trump having broken in their words the violation and gag order earlier in the week. And one was a quote of a jesse waters, a fox commentator, that was attacked particularly on some of these potential jurors, suggesting they were undercover activists trying to get on the trump jury to taint this trial before him. They were calling this the most abhorrent violation of the gag order yet. And we should note, i want to let you hear from just yesterday, donald trump left the courthouse, he went on attack against Michael Cohen, which i can tell you in the last couple of minutes, the prosecution brought before the judge as another example of a violation of the gag order. Take a listen. What are they going to look at all the lies that cohen did in the last trial, he got caught lying in the last trial. So he got caught lying. Pure lie. And what are they going to look at that . Reporter ultimately this is going to come down to judge merchan over the course of the next hour. The prosecution is thought to hold donald trump in contempt for A Thousand Dollar fine for each of the violations, also an order to take down the previous posts, but then also for donald trump to receive a warning from the court that if he were to violate the gag order again, that he could potentially be put into jail during the course of these proceedings. So, chuck, vaughn went through some of the alleged violations, the comments he made about cohen yesterday, the Social Media Posts that jesse waters, quote, the fox news host who said that some of the jurors were potentially liberal activists who wanted to get on the jury, are these obvious Gag Order Violations to you . I think so. But let me add some context to that. I think this is harder than people might imagine. So gag orders are unusual. Theyre atypical. You dont see them in the ordinary case. So violations of gag orders are more unusual. And in this context, ana, a gag order imposed on Somebody Running for president is unique, it is unprecedented. I think he has violated it. Thats my sense of it. He was told not to comment on witnesses and hes been commenting on witnesses. I actually think of the questions in front of the judge, thats probably the easier one. The harder one is what do you do about it. So, if a judge issues an order, it is because he or she wants it followed. It hasnt been. But it is hard to imagine putting mr. Trump in jail at least in the first instance, right, while hes running a campaign for president. Do you give him a Tongue Lashing . Do you fine him . Do you tell him dont ever, ever do this again . Im really serious, double secret probation serious. What a judge ought to do in this situation doesnt come with a manual. And i do think he has to fashion some remedy because i do think mr. Trump is flouting his order, but how you do that, and, by the way, whether or not that works thats another question. Is hard. We know trump has been faced with gag orders before. Partial gag orders, we saw it in the Civil Fraud Trial. He was fined for violating in that case. But, danny, trumps lawyer argues here in his posts on social media that they have been pointing to, prosecutors pointed to, they do not establish any willful violations in part because they argue people like Michael Cohen have been targeting trump and have been publicly speaking out against him in recent days as well. Yeah, the argument there is essentially someone else is talking about me, i should be able to defend myself. Which you could say, well, you could just not respond, thats an option too. But at the same time, probably trumps strongest argument is that he should be able to respond, this is not happening in a vacuum, someone like Michael Cohen may be saying things about him, he feels like a response is necessary. The other argument he might make is that, look, as a candidate for the presidency, he is engaging in political speech, which is if you can say more cherish than regular speech probably is. It is one of the most safeguarded kinds of speech. Will that argument win the day . Im not sure. This is a case where you can put the tweets, the postings before the judge and ask the judge does this violate the gag order . And i think the most problematic part is if donald trump took what jesse waters said, and even changed it a little bit. Because that is viewed as putting his own spin on it, and he may have changed the wording a little bit. Thats going to be very problematic for trump in arguing that, hey, i was just posting what other people were saying, which does, look, were in a new era, it raises the question, does a repost count as speech . And in many contexts it does. Many times we post things to say look how silly this is. It is not our own speech. However, if youre posting something an anchor says and adding your own words to it, or anything, then it is probably your own creation. Now were getting into copy right law. But, really, it is a question of did he violate the gag order . And leaning toward yes, the judge will start out with low level penalties because were at the first rung of this ladder. At the end of the ladder is incarceration. Were still in the process of Court Proceeding where the prosecutor is going through each of the violations as they see it, and making their arguments before the judge conroy who is representing the prosecution saying, quote, he knows what hes not allowed to do and he does it anyway. He says whatever he needs to say to get the results he wants. Do you think there is evidence of that, kristen . Sure. Absolutely. You know, when trump makes these statements and then he reposts as danny pointed out, he is directly talking to potential jurors, and i think one of the things that is key here when he talks about Michael Cohen, he knows that this jury is not sequestered. He knows that the jury could potentially, not necessarily, even though they have restrictions on them as to whether or not they can look at social media, look at the news and things like that, there arent any restrictions on their Family Members and the people they go home to at night who may Say Something and say, hey, look, i saw in the news this, or, hey, i dont know if youre on the jury, i might say are you seeing the proceedings . Theyre not sequestered in terms of whether or not they will still have access to this material. By posting that information, you do run the risk of, and, again this is the intent of a gag order, ruining the integrity of the trial proceedings. And so when he posts that, i do think there is an intent to interfere with the integrity of the criminal proceeding. What do you see is worse . Comments about witnesses or potential influences on the jury by commenting about them being liberal activists . I think both, right . The jurors are just members of the public, trying to fulfill their civic duty. You have one juror who said, listen, i know i was selected, but i dont want to be part of this anymore, and im worried about the safety of myself as well as the safety of my loved ones. When you have those types of things, both affecting the jurors as well as the witnesses, it becomes less about selfand also about personal safety. You saw this with the judges daughter also was personally attacked. So, i think that both of them are equally detrimental to the case because, again, it could cause witnesses to not want to be part of the proceeding, which would attack how a prosecutor is able to put on their case. But then also it also affects how many jurors are willing to fulfill their civic duty. I know we have 12 and six alternates, but those alternates can come to zero at some point. Well see. And so far, that hasnt happened. We havent lost any jurors at this point since they were seated. And this Opening Statement got under way yesterday. So, danny, we talked about the potential punishment here, A Thousand Dollar fine for each of the violations, thats what the prosecution is asking for, and they said, please give him a warning, if he were to continue to violate the gag order, he could face time behind bars. Does the fine make sense to you . What the prosecutors are doing is starting at square one. They know that this theyre going to be back before the court on another Gag Order Violation hearing. Think about it, last week the judge set this for a week out, and a lot of folks said, well, why not deal with it now . You could have a Gag Order Violation hearing every day on the morning before jury trial starts because it is an ongoing thing. Look at the wisdom now in setting this hearing a week away, because now you can roll together all the other violations that have happened since. Including just in the last day or so. So this may be a periodic thing. They know theyll probably be back here on another potential Gag Order Violation and starting at one. Starting at the lowest amount. Donald trump doesnt care about A Thousand Dollars. But next time theyre before the court, they can say, judge, we tried a fine, that didnt work, we want more. Theyll get more. And eventually and unfortunately all roads in Contempt Land Lead to jail. Jail is the final punishment. The prosecution now is just laying a baseline, laying a floor. Quickly, if you will, chuck, do you see it coming to time behind bars . Hard to imagine. But danny is right. If you cant abide by an order, and fines dont work and the Tongue Lashing doesnt work, what works. If this person werent donald trump, how would he be treated . Again, gag orders are unusual, violations are unusual. So, there is not a lot of data. Not a lot of sort of points of comparison. But i can tell you this, ways a federal prosecutor for a long time, if a judge issues an order, you follow it. And if you dont, you get punished for that and thats whats going to happen here if he cant conform his behavior. Well keep an eye on what is happening inside that courtroom, everybody. Stay close. Coming up, more of what we could hear from the first witness, david pecker after this Gag Order Hearing. Plus, we heard trumps words at the center of this Gag Order Hearing, but what clues can we discern from his demeanor in court . Also ahead, the political impact on Trumps Campaign as his time on trial allows President Biden to storm the trail. Were back in 60 seconds. Storml were back in 60 seconds with bounce pet, you can cuddle and brush that hair off. Bounce, its the sheet. So this is pickleball . Pickle ah, these guys are intense. With e trade from Morgan Stanley, were ready for whatever gets served up. Dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. Id rather work on saving for retirement. Or college, since you like to get schooled. Thats a pretty good burn, right . At st. Jude, the mission is just something that everyone can truly get behind. Look at our little st. Jude pin there on the fridge were just regular people donating. Yeah. And i think its cool to be able to make a difference in someones lives in a way that is meaningful. Students. Students of any age, from anywhere. Using our technology to power different ways of learning. So when minds grow, opportunities follow. Welcome back. At this hour, donald trump is back in a new york courtroom, his Hush Money Trial Beginning Today With A Hearing On Potential Gag Order violations by the former president. And at the top of next hour, we are expecting the first witness, david pecker, to return to the stand. Reporters in court noted a change in trump during peckers Testimony Yesterday. Jonathan alan writing trump went from an uninterested observer at his own trial, eyes shut at times, to a highly attentive defendant in chief, leaning forward into the table, speaking animatedly with his lawyer and furiously scribbling notes. Joining us now, State Attorney for Palm Beach County florida, dave aronberg. Based on that description if the jury is watching donald trump, what message is he sending with just his Body Language . Good to be with you, ana. When the defendant is perking up, the jurors will be perking up. Because if it is important to the defendant, the jurors are going to know this is important testimony. So he gave the indication to the jurors, pay attention, what david pecker said, which helps prosecutors because david pecker is an important witness, hes corroborating the future testimony of Michael Cohen, and hes setting the stage for this grand scheme. This is not a one off with Stormy Daniels, but a larger scheme that donald trump allegedly participated in. And Msnbcs Rachel Maddow is sitting in the courtroom yesterday, and here is part of what she observed. He seems thinner than i have seen him in the past. He seems considerably older. And he seems annoyed, resigned, maybe angry. He seems like a man who is miserable to be here and thats, you know, im no Body Language expert. And this is just my observation, but he seemed old and tired and mad. Dave, your reaction and how much are his lawyers, do you think, talking to him about his demeanor in court . His lawyers are having a tough time controlling their client. Look, what he says outside the courtroom, so i can imagine they have a tough time controlling him inside the courtroom. Forget about the whole lazy joe moniker that trump has given joe biden, because now that hes fallen asleep in the courtroom multiple times, it is going to be hard for him to use that slur against the president. So, this is not going well already for the former president. But, you know if hes found not guilty or a hung jury, then he wins. But the testimony, the evidence seems to be pretty strong already. David pecker is a strong witness, followed by Michael Cohen and then hope hicks, who is a trump confidante, thats going to be really damaging for him to see his friends on the stand. One thing for his enemies to take the stand, another thing for his inner circle to do so. It is quite the contrast we heard in terms of trumps demeanor inside this courtroom, versus other cases, where hes shown up in court and that we have covered. Lets remember this is the same man who stormed out of his Civil Fraud Trial back in october, and he nearly got himself kicked out of the courtroom during his Defamation Trial in january, the e. Jean carroll case, the civil fraud trail didnt have a jury. These are both civil cases. Dave, what happens if he were to behave that way here during a criminal trial . Judges matter, ana. And if you got a judge like judge merchan, who aint messing around, he could be hit with sanctions. Now, ill see what kind of sanctions hes going to get hit with in violating the gag order, but i do suspect as your previous guests said that there are going to be escalating sanctions. At first, it wont be much. The more he acts up and violates the gag order, the more he shows disrespect to the court, the worse it will be for him. One thing about trump, he likes the prestige and the gold and the swag, hes in a dinghy nasty courtroom, it is cold in there and it is old and dated and it has got to be humiliating. Too bad new york doesnt allow cameras in the courtroom. They should. We should be able to see this ourselves. They are allowing a transcript out of the Court Proceedings for anybody to access in order to provide some transparency, but, youre right, it would be helpful if we had cameras in the court and could see everything and hear everything with our own eyes and ears. Dave aronberg, thank you so much for your perspective and expertise. Thank you, ana. Just ahead, new updates from Inside The Manhattan Courthouse where a judge is Hearing Arguments and deciding whether to punish trump for alleged violations of his gag order. For comments about potential witnesses, and even jurors. And as we wait for david pecker, the first witness in this trial to return to the stand later this morning. L to return to the stand later this morning sometimes, the lows of Bipolar Depression feel darkest before dawn. With caplyta, theres a chance to let in the lyte™. Caplyta is proven to deliver significant relief across Bipolar Depression. Unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and ii depression. And in clinical trials, Movement Disorders and weight gain were not common. Call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts. Antidepressants may increase these risks in young adults. 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And through meaningful partnerships with families, they become centers of their communities. Real solutions for kids and communities at aft. Org from chavez and huerta to striking janitors in the 90s to todays fastfood workers. Californians have led the way. Now, 20 hour is here. Thanks to Governor Newsom and leaders in sacramento, we can lift workers out of poverty. Stop the race to the bottom in the fastfood industry. And build a california for all of us. Thank you governor and our california lawmakers for fighting for what matters. Manhattan following the latest from inside the courtroom. Donald trumps attorney todd blanche is now up and this mornings Gag Order Hearing arguing that he did not violate the order as prosecutors allege. Lets check back in with nbc news correspondent Vaughn Hillyard. Whats the latest, vaughn . Reporter there is back and forth right now. Theyre literally going post by post, again, the judge is looking at ten Different Social Media posts that the prosecution alleges donald trump to have violated his gag order on over the course of the last week and a half. And now after the prosecution went post by post, todd blanche, Donald Trumps attorney, is now responding, saying, quote, there is absolutely no willful violation of the gag order. And hes making a distinction between donald trump responding politically versus responding as it pertains to the legal proceedings. And making the case that, quote, the three posts were in direct response to comments by these witnesses, referring to Stormy Daniels and Michael Cohen, not about these proceedings. And he was not talking about their testimony. But instead, responding to Public Comments that they had made about him. Now there is notably a name that were going to bring up here that folks will recall. Michael avenatti, the former attorney to Stormy Daniels, who has his name inserted into the courtroom proceedings. Hes serving years in prison for a series of federal crimes and Michael Avenatti had not only some Social Media Posts, but also interview including on our network in which he talked about donald trump being unfairly targeted with this gag order to which donald trump responded with the social media post and as part of that post in responding to michael i should say Michael Avenatti, he referenced the, quote, two sleaze bags who have with their lies and misrepresentations cost our country dearly, referring to Michael Cohen and Stormy Daniels. This is what were getting into the nitpicky distinction Here Of Whether Donald Trump violated the gag order when he referred to Michael Cohen and Stormy Daniel as sleaze bags because hes responding technically to Michael Avenatti. Here is a part of a conversation, i want to read back to you, between judge merchan and todd blanche. Judge merchan, quote, have you spoken with mr. Avenatti about what he means . Blanch responded, no, of course not. To which judge merchan responded, then how can you interpret what he believes . This is coming down to a moment where this gag order and donald trump will be held in contempt for violating the gag order. We have nine more posts to go through. This is just post number one. Vaughn hillyard, thank you for that update. Lets bring back our legal panel. Chuck, just a reaction to what we are hearing from the defense now as it is their turn in this Gag Order Hearing. It is their turn and youre hearing what you would expect to hear, that it wasnt willful and that mr. Trump has First Amendment rights to speak, particularly during a political campaign. I dont find it terribly avowing. The fact he was only replying to mr. Avenatti doesnt cut it for me. Do you believe that avenatti is now the subject of the hearing, again . Wouldnt it be nice if some people, not naming names, but just go away, but in any event, mr. Trump isnt just responding to mr. Avenatti. Hes responding publicly to mr. Avenatti. And thats an important distinction. And i think kristen made this point earlier, witnesses can see this, jurors, though theyre told not to read about the case, have Family Members and loved ones who might be telling them whats going on, this is calculated to reach jurors and witnesses. It is therefore a violation of the gag order. Mr. Blanch is doing his job. Thats what Defense Attorneys are supposed to do. Theyre supposed to present a counterargument. I dont find it terribly avowing. Kristen . I have to agree. The gag order specifically says trump is precluded from making or directing public statements about known or reasonably foreseeable witnesses concerning their potential participation in the investigation or in this criminal proceeding. He is literally doing that to the letter of the law. I have to agree with chuck. This is a violation. And i think that it is willful. Again, he didnt respond to avenatti. He didnt respond directly to cohen. He did it publicly on a public forum and it has the potential to threaten the integrity of the criminal proceeding. Back to vaughn for a moment. I understand there has been some interaction between the attorney for donald trump and the judge . Whats happening . Reporter judge merchan dissatisfied with the answer that todd blanche is giving him when it comes to the specifics about what Donald Trumps intentions were. Were now under the third social media post, a direct mention of Stormy Daniels in an article related to her. And in which todd blanche is defending his client, donald trump, by saying that Stormy Daniels is broadcasting on twitter, talking to the press, having documentaries and that donald trump should be able to respond to the words that she is saying. And how critical she is of him to which judge merchan fired up in response and says, quote, i am asking a question. I keep asking you over and over to give me an example and im not getting an answer, saying that it is now 10 30, we have been going on this for an hour now, and hes looking for an answer. He wants to know how this is im now reading lisa rubin is messaging us in real time. Judge merchan demands to know the most recent attack to which trump was responding, blanche does not have facility with the statements to the extent they exist. And judge merchan is losing his patience, accusing blanche of not answering his questions. So were just three Social Media Posts through the ten and judge merchan clearly frustrated with the attorney for Donald Trumps lack of ability to articulate on behalf of his own client his intention with those social media statements. Okay, thanks for that, vaughn. Come back to us with new highlights as you get them. Danny, lets look ahead as were anticipating the first witness to return to the stand later this morning. Were expecting maybe around 11 00 depending when the Gag Order Hearing wraps up. David pecker will be back. He spoke for about 30 minutes or so in Testimony Yesterday after those Opening Statements. Anything that stuck out to you and just how important is he to this case . David pecker may in fact be the peoples star witness and not Michael Cohen. David pecker may ultimately be a better witness for a few different reasons. Number one, he has some baggage, but he doesnt have the baggage of a Michael Cohen. Number two, hes going to lay the foundation of this preexisting relationship and this catch and kill arrangement. And thats going to match up to a lot of documents that the state is going to introduce. Number three, he was a friend of Donald Trumps. So his testimony may be more credible for that reason. He may be testifying about something were not anticipating, and it might be about a direct conversation with donald trump, because, remember, that there were these entries in Business Records can be shown from the records with the state, with the people need to show is Donald Trumps involvement and his intent. Someone like David Pecker May have a lot of information about that. And, finally, the reason that David Pecker May be the most important witness is that hes first. Hes the first one out of the gate, which means the prosecution is comfortable with him, they trust him, and they want to create an impression, a First Impression on this jury. Who did they call . Who did they choose out of their stable . It wasnt Michael Cohen. It wasnt Stormy Daniels. It was david pecker. There must be a reason for that. They have faith in him. Well see if he delivers today. Hes also somebody notably that trump hasnt been attacking on social media when theyre arguing this gag order and whether he violated it. The other key thing that we know of is what david pecker knew, what he was involved in, and we spoke with msnbc spoke with the former Executive Editor of the National Enquirer, who worked with pecker, he was on with Nicolle Wallace yesterday. Take a listen. August 2015, two months after donald trump goes down the escalator where they had this meeting, Michael Cohen and it is trump and it is david pecker and where pecker says hell be the eyes and ears of the campaign. The organization i used to work for will purchase negative stories off the market and will run negative stories about your rivals. David pecker can really act as a tour guide for the jury. Kristen, he takes us back to 2015, before trump was president , during the campaign. How important is that, that meeting, in 2015, and trump tower, with david pecker, Michael Cohen and donald trump . That is critical. Why is that critical . Well, because in order for this particular crime to be a felony, they have to show that donald trump not only caused Business Records to be falsified, and with the intent to commit a crime, but the intent to commit that crime and to cover up kind of goes in with the election interference, with the state campaign violation, so that that meeting actually puts all of them together, right . And so what that meeting really does is it is going to corroborate cohens testimony, and it is going to show that peckers acts were on the benefit of the campaign. Can a person go ahead and contribute and independently benefit a campaign . Yes, they can. Pecker could have caught and killed the stories, but he cannot do it, it is a violation of the law, and that there goes with the intent to commit the crime which raises the crime to a felony. He cannot do it if he is led or guided or instructed or directed by trump or his agents. Trump himself was at that meeting. His agent cohen was also at that meeting. So, that meeting is critical because what it does is it provides the evidence and lays the foundation for the prosecution to show that the falsification of these Business Records is not a mere misdemeanor, but a felony, to conceal the ultimate hush money payment, which, you know, is obviously going to come in through other testimony. What about the argument, it is not illegal to do catch and kill . It is not. But to kristens point, if youre doing it, right, and doing it leads to the falsification of records, thats a crime. If mr. Trump wanted to pay Stormy Daniels out of his own pocket, right, that would be okay. If mr. Trump wanted to pay Stormy Daniels out of the trump organization, and recorded it accurately, thats okay. But once he decides to pay her, and has his organization conceal it, not as a hush money payment, which would be fine, but as a retainer to Michael Cohen for legal services, fictitious, of course, thats not okay. At that point, they made false entries. And New York State criminalizes that and the prosecutors are seeking to penalize it. To kristens point, if you do all that stuff, you make those false records, ana, because there is some other crime you want to conceal or commit, like election fraud, or tax fraud, that takes the underlying case, a misdemeanor, lower level crime, and converts it to a felony. Which is what we have here. Yesterday we heard them argue i didnt falsify records. I paid a lawyer some money and i put it in the record for legal fees. It was exactly what it what i said it was. How does that argument stand up to the facts . I want to give you a glimpse into what todd blanche, trumps attorney, who if you had that image, hes behind trump as hes saying that. And i just i imagine going on and todd blanches head, please stop talking, because everything donald trump does out there, if nothing else, is revealing Defense Strategy, which you dont need to do at this point. So is the Defense Strategy going to be, i got an invoice for Attorney Services and i paid it . Well, you Better Believe the people anticipated that. And theyre going to calls witnesses and documents and evidence to show it was not reasonable to believe this was simply an invoice for legal services. When we attorneys invoice people, there are certain requirements that need to be followed. Donald trump, if hes reviewing the entire defense is that i saw nothing, i heard nothing, i just signed what was in front of me, and i didnt know, well, then, the government, the people are going to rebut that with their own evidence in the form of witnesses and documents so that circumstantially it just isnt credible and if youre todd blanche, youre frustrated at donald trump talking and youre also frustrated that while youre up all night preparing for witnesses, youre now trying to have to remember who tweeted what and when or truth social and whatever. It has got to be really frustrating for mr. Blanch. Speaking of that, checking back to what is happening in this hearing right now, the judge was asking todd blanche, Donald Trumps attorney, who, in fact, is responsible for posting on truth social for trump. So, well find out his answer as we continue to follow what is happening here. Kristen, thank you for coming in. Danny, chuck, stay close. Up next, well take you outside the courtroom to the Campaign Trail. Trumps trial keeping him off the trail, but in the spotlight. Were back after a short break. Were back after a short break i was sad. Colton i was diagnosed with rhabdomyosarcoma. Brett once we got the first initial hit, it was just straight tears, sickness in your stomach, just dont want to get up out of bed. Joe theres always that saying, well, youve got to look on the bright side of things. Tell me what the bright side of Childhood Cancer is. Lakesha its a long road. Its hard. But saint jude has gotten us through it. Narrator Saint Jude Childrens Research Hospital works day after day to find cures and save the lives of children with cancer and other lifethreatening diseases. Thanks to generous donors like you, families never receive a bill from saint jude for treatment, travel, housing, or food, so they can focus on helping their child live. 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Donald trump back in court for his Hush Money Trial, where lawyers are arguing over whether he violated the gag order. While trumps busy with his trial, President Biden is scheduled to hit the Campaign Trail today. Hes headed to florida to talk about Abortion Rights with the Biden Campaign saying this trip is intended to call out Donald Trumps abortion ban since roe was overturned. Joining us now, former present congressman from florida, david jolly. And former biden 2020 Senior Campaign adviser alencia johnson. Congressman, were awaiting a decision on Donald Trumps gag order that he claims has kept him from defending himself in the court of public opinion. How could this decision affect how he campaigns Going Forward or will it . He could be facing pretrial detention. Though i agree with most of the attorneys, probably not at this hearing, but it is hard to see a world in which his question of pretrial detention does not become more and more pregnant over the coming months. How does it affect the Campaign Trail and the election . Today is a perfect example. You have donald trump in a Courtroom Fighting for his personal freedom, a moment that he himself created, while joe biden is in a swing state talking to voters about an issue that they continue to show motivates them to come out and vote for democrats. I will say that trumps lawyer and the prosecution have gone back and forth with this judge. But the prosecution saying, at this point, were not asking for detention. They want a fine. Though they say they believe trumps lawyers are trying to sort of bait the judge or suggest theyre asking for detention. They say were not there just yet. Alencia, while trump is dealing with all this in court today, President Biden is traveling to florida as Congressman Jolly pointed out there. Hes delivering remarks ahead of the states restrictive abortion ban going into effect in just a couple of days. What do you make of how the Biden Campaign is taking advantage of this courtroom Campaign Trail split screen . Listen, they are giving us the exact contrast that i think is great for the american people. You see one former president who is sitting in a courtroom, and another current president who is running for reelection fighting for our fundamental freedoms. He is on the Campaign Trail talking about Abortion Rights, which we know is a great issue for democrats, even in very red or conservative states including florida. Where potentially abortion will be directly on the ballot in addition to candidates come november. And so, it is very powerful and an opportune time for President Biden and Vice President harris and the Campaign Surrogates and everyone who supports them to continue to talk about what it is that theyre voting for, and letting the contrast of donald trump sitting in the courtroom speak for itself. Congressman, while President Biden personally isnt talking about the trial, his campaign has jumped on the reporting that trump appeared to have his eyes closed at times during the proceedings. Biden campaign with a series of posts, some with the sleepydon. We remember the sleepy joe moniker. Has the Biden Campaign decided to play at trumps level here and what are the potential pitfalls of that . Well, i think part of wrestling with donald trump is he creates false narratives and he creates theater and then joe biden you see a president who is overseeing an economy, and alliance of the west, defending freedom on the world stage, and donald trump, again, sitting in a courtroom. But if youre on fox news or listening to donald trump, it is the exact opposite. The world is upside down. So, campaigns have to engage in shattering the paradigm, the narrative that donald trump is sending out there. Joe biden himself is handling it exactly right. Youre above it all. Youre the sitting president of the united states, fighting for the american people, while donald trump is fighting for himself. Let the Campaign Teams engage in the other high jinks. Alencia, do you agree . I absolutely agree. President biden has so much that he needs to communicate. So many people still dont fully quite understand all that the Biden Administration has done for them. So hes using the time to do that, and, listen, let the Campaign Spokespeople and surrogates do the fighting for him. Thank you, both, so much. And now we have more action in the courtroom. I want to bring in nbcs rehema ellis, outside the courthouse. It sounds like the judge is getting tough on trumps lawyer. What is happening . Reporter yeah. I want to share one really quick note that were seeing out of the court right now. And that is judge merchan saying to Donald Trumps attorneys, youre losing all credibility, you are losing all credibility with the court. I have to tell you. This is in reference to this hearing that is under way right now about whether or not the former president has violated the gag order. There are ten instances which the prosecution has brought up, which they are discussing. One of them involves a tweet, retweet that the former president did that was put out by a fox news host about whether or not there were some people trying to get on a jury who were lying about what their intentions are to get on the jury. And the former president , he retweeted that. And the attorney for donald trump said he should not be held in contempt for doing those kinds of things, and the judge asked him, well, specifically, who is doing these tweets and the trump attorney says, well, there is a group of people who are doing things. And then the judge indicates, well, then, that is willful. They are willfully making some determination about what is going to be retweeted. Because it seems that the former president changed a few words of that tweet by jesse waters, that fox host. And thats when the judge, he rang out with what sounds as when youre reading it, it sounds like hes angry now, saying you are losing all credibility. Youre losing all credibility with this court, i have to tell you. You mentioned before that the prosecution said they are not looking to make donald trump serve any jail time for this. But they are looking for the judge to hold him in contempt for these violations. Ones that happened as recently as last night, when the former president was exiting the courtroom. Okay, thank you so much for the update, rehema ellis. Stay with us. Well have much more from the manhattan courthouse where the first witness in Donald Trumps first criminal trial is set to return to the stand any minute now. Well have the latest from inside after a short break. Dont go far. T from inside after a short break dont go far is he . Claritin clear . Yeah. 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Lets bring back nbcs rehema ellis outside the courthouse and Chuck Rosenberg and Danny Cevallos, our legal analysts here with me on set. Get us up to speed as to how this all ended, regarding the Gag Order Hearing, and what he can with expect next when court resumes. Reporter it seems that the judge is going to be reserve any kind of decision on this for the moment. But it ended with him being a little bit disturbed as i mentioned before we went on break that he was talking about, he was losing that the defense team was losing their credibility with him, losing all credibility. The judges words. It seemed as though it was not going well for the defense team. One thing i want to tell you too, also in terms of a little bit of color on all of this, while all of this was going on, it seemed like the former president was not pleased with what he was hearing from his defense team. His eyes were closed according to our reporters who are watching this, and the overflow room, he gave the he has given the impression that he was not happy with what was going on. So, at this point, you talk about the fact that they have gone into recess, and theyre going to come back, it seems, and resume testimony with david pecker. You talked about the fact that he had been talked about the fa he had been on the stand yesterday and was the first witness to be on the stand. Hes the former ceo of the National Enquirer, and he has been given an Immunity Deal and as a result he could be free to tell us, and we will be watching and listening to what he will say, ana. Thank you for the update. Trump and pecker were close friends. You are a defense attorney, and is there an emotional component when its somebody like pecker and you are donald trump and his team, how do you navigate that . Criminal defendants will quickly find all the people who thought were there Blood Brothers and best pals are now cooperating witnesses and are marching into court and pointing the finger at them. I know chuck has made it happen so many times with witnesses. This is nothing new. This is every time the government uses a cooperating witness they are getting somebody to turn on a former friend. I think a lot of criminal defendants think that just by staring down that witness they may prevent them from take the stand and testifying against them, and it never works. They come in and maybe ignore gear gaze, but david pecker did say he would testify and lay the foundation for a relationship that will help the people prove, this is not an isolated incident limited to these particular transactions, but this is something that was going on. That will tend to show the intent they need to prove. Thats the biggest hurdle, proving Donald Trumps intent, and the jury can infer from a meeting if pecker testifies there was a meeting donald trump called in which he said, this is what i want done. Chuck, who else might the Prosecution Call to corroborate peckers testimony . Well, there are any number of people, right, in the chain of events. People at the initial meeting with pecker, trump and cohen, and there are others who knew the catch and kill plot, and daniels as well as karen mcdougal. People always act in their self interest. In a courtroom, that tendency is exacerbated, right . So mr. Pecker has sort of a binary choice. He can be a witness with immunity, or, perhaps, a defendant. Between those two polls, its pretty easy. Danny is right. People almost always cooperate i wouldnt say 100 of the time look at allen weisselberg, he didnt. Yeah, there are exceptions but almost always, and its because its in their interest to do so. The guy in the parking lot that sees the getaway car after the bank robbery, he doesnt have an axe to grind and he saw what he saw and will report it, but for those who are involved in the scheme and the plot, when they are given the choice to cooperate with the immunity, or cast in the lot with the other defendants facing prison time, thats never a hard choice in my experience. How do you think the defense will approach this on crossexamination . This is a tough one. David pecker is a tougher crossexamination subject than Michael Cohen, like you can spend hours on prior convictions and his change in loyalty, for example, and the fact that he has already been adjudicated guilty for other crimes. David pecker will be more difficult, but i expect they will challenge him on his memory, and some of the meetings were a decade ago, and todd blanche previewed was of his themes, which is the enquirer was independent, and you didnt take your orders from donald trump and you chose what to public. If donald trump demanded you published something, you didnt have to listen to him. David pecker could say, i didnt have to but i did. You have to be careful with a witness like david pecker. He may be the most difficult to cross examine, and maybe thats why they opened with him. You are probably going to seat general approach, which is the ability to recall and maybe just refuting his theme, which is that the National Enquirer was an independent journalist eubg body and donald trump was not the boss of them. I wonder, the testimony began yesterday, and there was a shortened court date because of passover today, and does that change or impact the approach when you dont have a cohesive testimony . Marginally. Prosecutors would prefer to put on their witness in one shot and it gives both sides more side to prepare, and here it gives the defense more time to prepare in cross, which is a luxury in trial. Appreciate you both. That does it for us today. We will see you back here tomorrow. Same time, same place. For now, i am Ana Cabrera Reporting from new york. Up next is jose diazbalart coverage of the trial after this. Rt coverage of the trial after this with fastsigns, Create Factory Grade visual solutions to perfect your process. Fastsigns. Make your statement™. Sup . Who are you . Im your inner child. Get in. Listen, what you really need in life is some freakin torque. What . Horsepower keeps you going, but torque gets you going. What happened to my inner child craving love and acceptance . 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