Just ruled that Fulton County District Attorney fani willis can stay in charge of the sweeping election interexperience case into donald trump and more than a dozen others if and only if top prosecutor nathan wade, the man she had a relationship with, goes. Covering all of the angles of this major decision with msnbcs katie phang, and lisa rubin, danny cevallos, and dave aaronberg, State Attorney from palm beach county, florida, thank you all for joining us, katy, walk us through this 20plus page decision and the choice willis has to make now. So, ana, msnbc first to report this 2346 page ruling that came from judge scott mcafee. The process has taken a few months, and so to that extent, if there was a win, the win would be for the defense for the delay. However, ultimately judge mcafee saying no actual Conflict Of Interest was proven by the defense. It was their burden to have to show it through competent evidence during the course of the hearing. The judge reporting there was an appearance of impropriety that affects the prosecution. The cure, the choice for fani willis at this time, she and her entire office steps aside to allow the prosecution to be reassigned or Special Prosecutor nathan wade steps down. It seems to be an easy decision to be made that fani willis would stay, and nathan wade would go away. However, wade has played a critical and crucial role in this prosecution since day one, this is not the last that fani willis is going to hear when it comes to challenges to her continuing prosecution of the case. The defense, for example, trump lawyer steve sadow ind kaet kating hes going to appeal the decision and in order to do so the prosecuting counsel in the state of georgia has indicated there would have to be an appeal of this decision to that counsel to review it, and so were going to be seeing, and keeping tabs on what happens. Any news yet from trumps legal team . Other than the fact that theyve indicated that theyre interested in appealing this decision, theyve also indicated that they are disappointed with the decision, stating that the court did not afford appropriate significance to the Prosecutorial Misconduct of willis and wade but those are the arguments advanced during the course of this multiday, multihour evidentiary hearing. Greg, we have an ultimatum for fani willis, does that surprise you . I dont know how surprising it is. It cures this legal problem, but it comes is a steep price. Nathan wade is experienced, tenacious, and has been involved for three years now. Her credibility has been under attack through these extraordinary hearings that could undermine the credibility from the legal pool she would draw from in Fulton County and shes also facing political challenges, not just from two challengers to her Reelection Bid in Fulton County, who stand very little chance but to also exploit these issues for political gain but also from republicans in the georgia legislature, Governor Kemp two days ago citing legislation that could lead to a potential investigation, even reprimand, Senate Leaders have already filed a complaint against her last year theyre going to revive that complaint, and, of course, theres an investigation in the Georgia Senate led by allies for Lieutenant Governor burt jones who also could be implicated in this overall trial that will look to subpoena fani willis and look to subpoena others to review this case. Dave, whats your reaction to this decision, did judge mcafee get it right . I think so, ana, it was a tough decision, he tried to split the baby here, and i think he did, although i can see on appeal how an appellate cars may say can you actually do this, where you order that the Special Counsel has to be removed, while the d. A. Stays . So that means you dont believe the testimony from nathan wade and Terrence Bradley but you believe fani willis, its difficult to get my head around it. But i do think that in the end this is the right outcome because there is no actual conflict. That is the ultimate standard here. Because, if she had a relationship with a Defense Lawyer or the judge or a witness, that would be an actual conflict. But to have a relationship with someone on your own team is not an actual conflict. It didnt have to even get to this stage, this it only happened because you had an affidavit from nathan wade saying that this is what happened, this relationship didnt begin until later. If they had just fessed up from the beginning, if they had just thrown nathan wade overboard from the beginning when this came out we wouldnt be here in the end. In the end she gets to move forward, take the w and move on. The court found there was no actual Conflict Of Interest, but the judge did write the record established the appearance of impropriety, and as long as wade remains on the case this unnecessary perception will persist. So, lisa, judge mcafee is saying this is about optics, no . Hes saying its about both. That both things can lead to a disqualification, and then he separates the two. Whether theres an actual Conflict Of Interest and the defendants fell short of their burden there, an automatic disqualification has to happen. Where you have the appearance of impropriety on the other hand, he says its really like a sliding scale, and its up to the court to determine whether disqualification is the necessary remedy that they take. And here, when hes talking about the appearance of empropriety the person whose testimony concerns him the most is nathan wade, he doesnt take a swipe at fani williss own credibility, but he definitely takes a swipe at nathan wade, and in particular, he says that wades patently unpersuasive explanation for the inaccurate interrogatories he submitted in his pending divorce gave him a lot of concern. Let me take a step backwards. Because nathan wade, as we all now know is in the middle of a divorce. In the course of that divorce he was asked questions in writing, called interrogatories, one of those questions is, did you, during any point of your marriage, have a relationship with someone else . And he said no. When asked to justify that on the stand here, he basically said, well the marriage was over in my mind. That is what judge scott mcafee is referring to. He wasnt truthful in another case, having nothing to do with this one, but having some repercussions for this one, and because of that, thats why mcafee is saying the remedy for that appearance of impropriety is that either willis goes and her office with it, or wade goes, giving her the easy choice. So, we have a lot of the reasoning in this decision, its more than 20 pages, danny, but we got a little bit more into judge mcafees head in a brief interview he had yesterday with one of the local News Stations there in georgia. Take a listen. The message i always want to convey is that ruling of mind is ever based on politics, im going to be following the law as best i understand it. Ruling not based on politics u following the law as best he can. There was a lot on the line with this decision, for judge mcafee personally, for the state of georgia, for the country. Yeah, disqualifying the d. A. s office would have meant not the actual technical end of the case, but it effectively could have completely derailed the case. As it is, even this order is a win, you know, both sides win, and both sides lose, in a sense the d. A. s office wins, but barely, and the defense also, their motion is granted, but barely granted. Granted in part . Yeah, when i say in part they wanted the whole case dismissed because of this issue. I say in part, and what he really means is, in teensyweensy part. The only person disqualified is nathan wade, did he lead the team . A major loss for the team . Sure. The prosecution goes on. This was a motion to dismiss the entire indictment or in the alternative disqualify the d. A. s office, they got rid of exactly one prosecutor, hes not gone yet but lets face it, thats whats going to happen and it was a hardly a Ringing Endorsement of judge mcafee of what the d. A. s office did and you have to wonder, the d. A. s office had come forward the moment this motion was filed, assess the situation, looked at nathan wade and said, you know what, nathan wade, we see the interrogatories you put in your divorce case, thats on you, youve got to live with it, good luck, the d. A. s office was defending the credibility of nathan wade and they shouldnt have been in that position. In my view, this is just my view, if they had come forward the moment this foegs moegs was filed and said, youve got us, we were in a relationship and it predated nathan wades appointment, the law was always on their side. You need look no further than this opinion. The actual conflict analysis, this doesnt fit into any of the classic actual conflicts. The appearance of impropriety i submit to you would not have been as strong an argument, it was bolstered middle eastly by everything the d. A. s office did, nathan wade and fani willis did after that motion was filed. I want to bring in Blayne Alexander live outside the courthouse there in Fulton County, blayne, you were first to report this decision, and have been following this case so, so closely. I want to get your take aways from what the judge said here in this decision, and its impact as this case moves forward. Reporter you know what, ana, i think the one thing that stands out to me is the judges language in all of this. Yes, we talked about the long and short of what hes ruled here, but he does not hesitate to take the d. A. To task, i mean, he basically scolds her for her testimony, for a lapse in judgment, in this relationship, and so i do think that that certainly is kind of an interesting nuance, especially to note as we know that this case is now going to proceed, yes, you can go forward, nathan wade has to be out of the picture but this wasnt a good idea. This wasnt necessarily the smartest move on your part, and im going to call you out on it. The question now, of course, is what happens next, reached out to the d. A. s office to see what we already know, that, you know, steve sadow said in his statement that they are going to continue fighting, trying to get this indictment thrown out, using available, all available Legal Options to them, the other questions, though, that i have are what happens, of course the legal portion of this is now kind of wrapped up in the judges decision, but now what happens to the ways that this has bled over . Shes still under investigation by a Georgia State senate committee, there is the governor just signed a law this week basically saying that State Lawmakers can now have oversight over georgia local prosecutors, something that democrats fear will be another tool that republicans will use to go after fani willis. And so even though the legal portion of this is, you know, essentially buttoned up, pending whatever action she chooses to take, there are many ways in which this has bled over and i think that shadow is going to be present over this for quite some time. The other thing i want to point out, though, of course, is the political aspect of all of this, donald trump, fani willis, judge scott mcafee, are all going to be on a ballot at some point, this year, i think thats certainly notable, but when you look at judge scott mcafee specifically, the judge races here in georgia are nonpartisan but he has already drawn two opponents, two challengers, when i spoke with a source thats familiar with the judges thinking on this, im told that this order was written more than a week ago. Before he drew his challenging opponent. So, you know, kind of trying to make the case that politics didnt have anything to do with his decision, but we also know that donald trump and people who criticize this case in general will, likely, find fault with this, and weve seen that other judges and trump legal cases have become targets as well, and thats why im told security was a major factor in the decision to release this today, ana. Im curious, blayne, the reputation piece here, in georgia, how do the citizens of georgia see it as this case has been upended for the past couple of months after these allegations came out . Reporter depends on where you go and who you ask. If youre right here in Fulton County, fani willis is tremendously popular, this is a heavily blue county, a big democratic county, you know that, when ive spoken with voters or talking with people casually, they watch and what they watch, they feel fani willis is being targeted. A number of people said maybe it wasnt the best choice on her part to have this relationship with nathan wade but when they looked at, what youre seeing right there, the fact that a lotover personal business was kind of trotted out in front of the public, aired live on television, they say that they believe that is just simply not fair, and that she wasnt treated fairly in that process. Now, if you go out to other places in this typically red state, youll get different opinions. Other people say the whole thing is ridiculous, a couple people have said its made a mockery of the state of georgia. Thats actually something that one of the opponents of scott mcafee has said, this entire kind of almost side show weve seen the past 2 1 2 months has made atlanta a laughing stock. No question, though, no matter where you land on it people are paying attention and watching it closely, ana. Dave, what do you think this decision means for the strength and the credibility of this case moving forward . Ana, i never believed this case would go to trial before the election. So, if you just accept the fact that this was going to be delayed past the election, anyway, because of all the different defendants, and all the rico counts which are complex and timeconsuming then i dont think its a great loss at all for the d. A. s office because she gets to continue. She should just move on, tune out the noise about her Personal Life. Throw nathan wade overboard and move on with the two other Special Prosecutors who can lead this effort. This is a win for fani willis. Im bewildered as to how the judge got to this conclusion to split the hairs like this, but in the end i think its a good resolution. It allows this case to continue, even though, like i said, its not going to go to trial before the election. Just quickly, i wanted to get your two thoughts here, danny and lisa with me, how quickly this case could get back on track and whether it will happen before the election that well see at trial. It depends on what else is happening and what i call trump trial tetris, a number of different players trying to get their cases tried before november, alvin bragg now has to figure out when his case will be tried. He said yesterday he would agree to a 30day adjournment. The only problem is that judge has another trial scheduled on may 27th, its the steve bannon we build a wall case the new york District Attorney has. Theres a lot of moving pieces, i think if fani willis wanted to go to trial before the election it would certainly be difficult for her to do so, but not impossible. Quickly, danny. Yeah, i mean, to build on lisas point, call any courthouse and ask a judge, if they need to move a date. Theyre looking at june, july, august dates already, in an ordinary courthouse, these are the most significant criminal cases, arguably, in american history, trial dates are delicate things, they require a lot of moving parts to line up perfectly at the same time, and continuances are common in ordinary cases, in complex rico cases, in georgia, in Fulton County, Jury Selection takes eight months, we know that because it just happened. Just the Jury Selection. Just the jury not one witness, not one part of the prosecutions case in chief, Jury Selection, that highlights a stark difference between state court in highly populous counties versus federal court, which generally moves a lot faster, but these are all complex cases, and things happen. Everyone stay close when were back in 60 seconds, were going to get some reaction from a georgia legal insider, dont go anywhere. You know, when i take the bike out like this, all my stresses just melt away. I hear that. 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Welcome back, we are continuing to cover the Breaking News out of georgia, the judge ruling fani willis can stay on the georgia case against donald trump, this is that sprawling Election Interference Case, as long as her Special Prosecutor nathan wade steps down. Lets bring back greg bluestein, and amy lee copeland, amy lee, starting with you, since youre new to the conversation, whats your reaction to this decision that dropped moments ago . Good morning, ana, i thought it was a real win for the District Attorneys office, even if its not nominally designated as a slight loss. When the judge had a hearing in advance of the first evidentiary hearing it was clear he felt something needed to be done. The status quo cant continue. He decided to hear evidence on it rather than just accepting the parties written submissions. So he has engineered an opinion where hes found no actual conflict but an appearance of impropriety that can be remedied by the d. A. s office has ten or 11 signatories on motions, it has a depp bench. They will hurt from losing their Chief Operating Officer but thats a whole lot easier to replace than an entire d. A. s office, so, again, labeled as a loss but i think really a win for the District Attorney. Greg, we had already seen four of Donald Trumps codefendants plead guilty in this case, 15 remain. Do you think well start seeing discussions about that again, trying to get people to flip, and get more plea deals under the belt of the District Attorneys office . We could. There also might be buyers remorse from four codefendants that reached plea deals we interviewed the georgia gop chair josh mccoop who suggested as much that they should have held out but theres steep, steep legal fees the state party is helping to pay right now to help some of those defendants. But no, i think this case now gets on track. We already saw a ruling earlier this week involving some of those criminal counts that were at least temporarily thrown out against these 19 or 15 remaining codefendants. Now the real work starts getting under way again. Amy lee, so much of fani williss Personal Life was put out there for public consumption. She shared a lot on the witness stand, trying to say, i have nothing to hide, how difficult does it make her ability to really take full command again of this case, do you think . You know, i dont think she ever lost full command of this case. She strikes me as a very powerful person, shes a career prosecutor, she very much knows her mind. I think she has always been in charge, and as you will see, the office really rallied around her, in the course of these proceedings, you know, she has had a course plotted for her, she, i think, needs to roll up her sleeves, and im sure she will and just get back to that course. She had told the judge, her office has, that within 30 days she will be ready to try this case. I have no doubt that that is a correct assessment, even if and when mr. Wade resigns. And, of course, judge mcafee issued a decision earlier this week, dropping some of the counts in this case, including three counts against trump specifically, what do you see as the Practical Impact of that decision as this case moves forward, amy lee . You know, perhaps not as much as some others do. Prosecutors put in counts for a number of reasons, these, of course, were overt acts, also in the rico charge, those remain, but a lot of times you charge not just your main count but also some that carry lower statutory penalties to give people plea options. Those counts are out now, that just means that these defendants that are affected cant plead to those counts unless the d. A. Resurrects through a superseding indictment. She may very well. She has gone on record, there are some defendants, the top five, never offered a Plea Agreement in this case, so i really think it has minimal impact on the case moving forward. And, greg, blayne touched on this, you just touched on it, i think, as well, but you have this new reporting about both d. A. Fani willis and judge scott mcafee as they are facing political challenges in the wake of this Election Interference Case. Can you expand on this . Yeah, its remarkable, isnt it, that three of the top figures in this entire case are all going to be on ballot. Donald trump, but fani willis and judge mcafee will be on the ballot as well and both fani willis and judge mcafee, very soon, in may, theyll face their first challenges, and, look, scott mcafee and fani willis are heavily expected to easily win another term, but they still have to look over their shoulders. Fani willis is facing a democratic and a republican challenger, democrats are saying shes not being progressive enough, she should be more criminally justice minded, embrace more, and republicans seizing on any misstep she makes, not just in the ruling we just saw, but Going Forward can be darling of far right media, can get all sorts of donations and Media Attention and all that, who, again, will have very little chance of winning a county that has one of the Deepest Blue Democratic in the state. Biden won in 2020, and at the same time could make fani williss Reelection Challenge more of a headache. The political and the legal are colliding in this election unlike any, i think weve seen come before it. Thank you so much, greg blue stein, and amy lee copeland. And we continue to dig into todays decision out of georgia and were also following big developments in two other trump trials, in florida and new york. Stay right there. Well talk about that on the other side of this break. 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As we follow the Breaking News from georgia were also monitoring two big developments and a couple of other trump cases, the new york Hush Money Case that was set to start a week from monday is now almost certainly to be delayed by at least a month, and while the judge in the federal classified documents case denied one of trumps motions to dismiss the case yesterday, just hours after a hearing, shes also still yet to rule on a second motion to dismiss that was discussed at that hearing yesterday, back with us now, lisa rubin, danny cevallos, and dave aronberg, lisa, starting with the Hush Money Case, trumps lawyers are asking for a 90day delay, District Attorney alvin bragg says wed be okay with a 30day delay. Bring us up to speed. We heard from the District Attorneys Office First Yesterday but the real order in which this happened was that trumps lawyers asked either for dismissal of the who he will case or a 90day adjournment based on a series of what they characterized as Discovery Violations in the case, namely that they were served belatedly with items they believe are relevant evidence to their defense. That not only includes 104,000 pages to date of evidence relating to Michael Cohens prosecution by the Southern District of new york on Campaign Finance charges, but they also said that they were belatedly served with some other things, they include, for example, information about the upcoming documentary stormy, which is supposed to air on the Peacock Network next week, they say that constitutes a prior statement by a trial witness that the d. A. s office is required to turn over to them, danny knows well, any prior statement by a trial witness is Critical Evidence for a defense team. So, they are asking either for a dismissal or a 90day adjournment. The d. A. s office came back yesterday saying well agree, were as surprised as your that the district of new york is suddenly giving you evidence about Michael Cohens prosecution that they refused to even us. Many months ago when we approached them for much of the same stuff. So, there are some questions about why the Department Of Justice here in manhattan is suddenly agreeing to give to donald trump evidence that the d. A. s office itself requested many months ago, did not receive, and therefore was not in a position to turn over to defendant trump. So theres a lot of finger pointing going on right now as to who dropped the ball here, i guess it sounds like, bottom line here, danny, the Southern District of new york had some evidence that the d. A. Would have loved to have gotten from them, for their case involving Michael Cohen. The southern District Attorneys office, district of new yorks office didnt turn it over. The sdny also was withholding that evidence from trumps lawyers, and that is the root of the problem. Secrecy why wouldnt the sdny have turned over this additional evidence earlier . Theres some blame that could probably be assigned to three different sides here, but the general rule is this, you start with the rule that, in criminal cases, discovery is a little more limited than it is in, say, civil cases, but in terms of discovery, the manhattan d. A. s office is technically only required to hand over what they have. They connecticut hand over things they dont have, not required to go out and look for things if they dont have it and theyre not going to use it and they didnt know it existed, certainly not if they dont know it exists. While both are prosecutors, the Southern District is a federal part of the federal branch and the manhattan d. A. s office are state prosecutors, and, contrary to popular belief theyre not always working closely hand in hand, in fact, if you ask some candid prosecutors in the manhattan d. A. s office they might say sometimes federal authorities do not cooperate with them at all and guess what, they dont have to because of the supremacy clause of the constitution. They dont have to listen to things like state court subpoenas, or phone calls from the manhattan d. A. s office or the nypd. They do what they like. They turn over documents, the u. S. Attorneys office, when they like, and in their judgment, they are now turning those documents over. Arguably, they never had to. In the manhattan d. A. s case, and if the manhattan d. A. Is learning about it now theres no discofry violation. If they dealt with the Michael Cohen prosecution which happened years ago, then maybe theres blame to be assigned to everybody for knowing that they were probably out there, somewhere, but ultimately the Southern District does what it wants when it comes to turning over documents. And the bottom line is, now the judge has to make a decision on how long the parties need to look at these additional documents and records that could be germane to the case here in new york. Meantime, dave, back in florida, we were covering that all day yesterday, judge Aileen Cannon has now denied one of trumps motions to dismiss the classified documents case, but she dnlt rule on the other. So, there were two motions discussed yesterday, she rules on one, says were going to deny that request. The other one is still out there. Why are we waiting on the second one . Well, its good to be back with you, ana. These are both loser motions, trump can win by continuing to delay the matter. She can just rule on it whenever she can. She took it under advise immaterial and she will eventually reject it. The bigger issue is, when she comes out with the ruling on dismissing the case, if she decides to dismiss the matter in the middle of trial, then Double Jeopardy attaches, and the jack smith is not able to go to the 11th circuit and get it overturned. That is the problem. So right now jack smith won a temporary victory because she said, well, im going to deny your motion to dismiss, but im going to allow trump to raise it again later. And if he does and he will raise it again later, and if then judge cannon decides to rule for trump, then jack smith is s. O. L. , thats a technical legal term, ana. So thats the problem here. So lets not chock it up to a victory. So far, judge cannon has been giving trump and his legal team pretty much all that they have wanted. Judge cannon did seem skeptical, though, about at least the second argument to dismiss the one about president ial records act, danny, do we have any sense, though, of how or when shed actually rule on that, does she have to rule on that motion to dismiss at some point . The most common question asked of people like me, lisa, and dave is, how soon can we expect to hear that . The answer is, beats me. Because judges can decide these things whenever they like. Sometimes, when, for example, its bush v. Gore, the Supreme Court can move very quickly, other times these things take a long time. Ive heard this a lot from criminal defense colleagues, trump may not realize that judge cannon is maybe helping him by denying these motions. What dave said is so significant, is that if, lets say for example judge cannon were to grant both these motions right now, and say motion kbranted the case is thrown out. You know what would happen, the government can still appeal that, it would go up on appeal and probably trump would lose at the appeals courts, but instead, if it goes to trial, and its a judgment of acquittal, or an acquittal outright by the jury, there are no comebacks, that is the end of the case. So, some of my more conspiratorial minded colleagues in the criminal defense bar were contacting me and saying, hey, shes helping him, now, obviously, i dont take that view that shes actively helping them, but procedurally the net effect by denying these motions may ultimately be better for trump, may be better for trump ultimately she denies these motions now, preserves his right to appeal them later on down the road but opens up the opportunity to raise those same arguments, she literally said so at trial, and move them closer to an acquittal. And from that, there is no appeal. This is all so fascinating, i feel like a law student every day. That we do these stories. 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Com. Back to Breaking News out of georgia and how trump world is reacting, nbcs dasha burns is in west palm beach, florida, and National Political reporter Jonathan Allen is joining us from washington. Dasha, youre out to the trump team, what have we heard . We did just get comment from the lead Defense Counsel for the president in Fulton County, and steve sadow says, quote, while respecting the courts decision we believe that the court did not afford appropriate significance to the Prosecutorial Misconduct of willis and wade, including the financial benefits testifying untruthfully about their personal relationship about when their personal relationship began, he also mentions williss speech in church, and says we will use all Legal Options available as we continue to fight to end this case, which should never have been brought in the first place. Now, this is the legal response, were still waiting for the campaign and also to hear from the former president himself, but what this says, and what we can expect, based on sort of the pattern of response and behavior that weve seen, this is not over. Its not over for fani willis, and its not over for the former president and his team, ana. This case is far from over, for sure, at this point. Jonathan, you have some new reporting, some new insight into how the legal cases are affecting trumps political strategy, especially as we enter the general election, aides telling nbc news their plan is to minimize the damage of having the candidate in court up to four days a week, as that Mush Money Trial gets going, walk us through the campaigns thinking here. Its better for him to be on trial in four separate cases, not to mention the civil cases, then than to not be as he campaigns for president. But they are trying to make lemonade out of lemons, as one source put it, and what theyre basically going to do is a twoprong strategy, one is effectively whats aimed at the base, which is to have him go to these go to these hearings, to go to the trials, thats been very good for him in fundraising, you saw it help him in the primary and it will continue to keep his base fired up. On the other hand, youre going to see him go out on the Campaign Trail when there are breaks, either on weekends or the few weekdays he may have off, and basically prosecute the case that he is a victim of persecution by prosecution, and also more importantly make Policy Contrasts with joe biden. So go out there and talk about what he thinks the Biden Administration is failing at, and what he would do as a prescription to fix that. So, were going to see mostly the trial stuff, mostly the talk about him being treated unfairly on the you know, on the trial dates in court, and mostly policy on the Campaign Trail when hes able to get out. I thought it was really interesting in your reporting, jonathan, that some of the thinking around the strategy here is that they dont necessarily even need to make his legal woes a campaign weapon, but they do believe they can muddy the waters and kind of neutralize his legal woes in the minds of voters, explain. Yeah, what they believe is that theres an opportunity here to at least try to blunt the case against him that, obviously, democrats are making, and certainly prosecutors in various places are making that hes a criminal, so what they want to do is try to at least neutralize that or they dont think theyre they dont think its a positive for him to go out there and say im on trial, a bunch of people in the country believe guilty of crimes and at the same time they think that by addressing this issue, you know, effectively head on, that they can at least minimize the damage from that. Okay, Jonathan Allen and dasha burns, thank you both for your reporting and as we continue to cover the Breaking News out of georgia well dive into the broader impact this could have on Donald Trumps bid to overtake the white house. So i can feel and see that my lines have gotten deeper just from a year out in the sun. Im still marie and i got botox® cosmetic. I did not want a dramatic change. 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Were back with more on when unprecedented meets unprecedented as the never before seen criminal and civil charges against a former president and current candidate are now colliding with the unpredictability of the electoral politics, joining us now stuart stevens, Lincoln Project Senior Adviser and also served as Chief Strategist for the romney 2012 campaign and with us, ashley, a former Communications Director for Vice President harris. Good to have you both here with us. Stuart, your reaction to this ruling in georgia. I think theyre living in fantasy here. This was a small set of vectors voters who voted who the republican primary who are of the opinion donald trump should be president , this is some sort of deep state conspiracy. But most americans are going to find repugnant that republicans nominated a guy who is out on bail, who has been found liable of sexual assault, new york jury, that a judge described as rape. That is a republican nominee. So, look, ive worked in campaigns that have bad facts before but this is going to soak in and really disturb people and i think its going to have a definite crushing impact on the Trump Campaign. Ashley, stuart referenced the civil cases where trump has had to pay e. Jean carroll for defamation related to sexual abuse of e. Jean carroll found by a civil case. This georgia case is a criminal case, and now we know, fani willis can stay on the case, as long as she case as long as she rid of her Special Prosecutor nathan wade. What are your thoughts on this . The other thing the judge found was no Conflict Of Interest. So this is good for fani willis and her case. This is going to be a constant reminder to voters of who donald trump is. Donald trump is now facing charges and is in court for the most egregious crimes against American Democracy trying to overturn an election. An msnbc poll told us that 53 of independent voters believe that he committed these crimes, the most e egregious crimes against American Democracy. So this puts donald trump and his violations of democracies center stage. Stuart, what do you think about Jonathan Allens new reporting that Trump Campaign is planning to use legal woes to his political advantage by trying to show President Biden as someone trying to imprison his political candidates. I sat in those rooms you try to come up with Something Like that. You play the hand thats dealt you. This is part of a larger republican now. You cant say its a trump effort. Its a republican effort to attack the foundations of Civil Society in america. I once joined a party that believed Law And Order now theyre attacking the justice department, the legal system, its attacking judges, its attacking individual jurors, its attacking prosecutors, its attacking the fbi. This is not a Law And Order party. And i dont believe that anyone is going to blame joe biden for the fact that donald trump is facing trials in multiple jurisdictions. Its just not going to parse. You know, republicans used to have a thing that we accused democrats of being victim shopping. Probably wasnt true but we said it. Now the Republican Party is the ultimate victims party, like theyre out to get us. This is not something thats a set of values that i think most americans are going to feel comfortable with. I hear your disgust stuart, yet look at how trump just dominated the primaries. So his grievance, his amplification of the legal woes hes facing. His visits to all these courtrooms, it worked for him in the primaries at least. I think its like jumping off a 100 story window in a 100 Story Building and youre floor 50, everything is going great. See what happens when he hits the ground. Donald trump has appealed to a small group of voters who majority of them do not believe they live in a country which the president of the United States is legally elected. Think about that. That is a very weird world to be living in. Thats an alternative universe. They dont believe the Commander In Chief is Commander In Chief legally. Thats not how most americans feel. I think they look at this and think that donald trump is a guy who lost president and has done a lot of things that they dont like. There are issues about, you know, joe biden that arent perfect. But i think this is going to end up being a pretty fundamental test of values and i believe what we said in the Republican Party that Character Counts for people. There arent teachers, coaches, boy scout, girl scout leaders that say its good to be indicted, good to be on trial. You should aspire to that. Thats just not where americans are, i dont think its going to work to portray this guy as a victim. When you put it that way, think of how parents are talking to their children it seems glaring you wouldnt want your child to emulate somebody who is convicted of certain at least civil crimes and who is, you know, accused of so many things. And yet, ashley, coming back to that idea that republicans seem to be really motivated by this and trying to help trump fight the system, how can the Biden Campaign counter the former president s strategy to try to use it to his advantage in some ways, these legal woes . To Stuarts Point the Republican Party isnt what it used to be. Its wholly owned and a subsidiary of donald trump, his family organization, the maga movement, its no longer what it used to be. Heres what i think is getting lost and what the Biden Campaign is going to play up. Donald trump has tremendous amounts of weaknesses and vulnerabilities going into november. His fundraising numbers are under water. The Republican Party has had the worst fundraising its had in a decade. Cant expand his base beyond the maga base. Nikki haley just got 30 in georgia, she didnt campaign in georgia. And hes going to be in court. So the Biden Campaign believes they have the advantage here and theyll continue to lean on the facts but the Republican Party alarms are going off, lack of enthusiasm they have a problem going into november. Thank you both. I appreciate the conversation. Thank you. Happy friday. That does it for us today. Ill be back here at 1 00 eastern filling for chris jansing. Im ana cabrera. Jose diazbalart picks up after this. Cabrera. Jose diazbalart picks up after this ella we now get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. marquis with a custom private 5g network. Our customers get what they want, when they want it. jen now were even smarter and ready for whats next. vo achieve enterprise intelligence. Its your vision, its your verizon. [ tense music ] one aleve works all day so i can keep working my magic. 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The number one cardiologistprescribed blood thinner. Were going for it. Ask your doctor about eliquis. Only at vanguard, youre more than just an investor, youre an owner. Our Financial Planning tools and advice can help you prepare for todays longer retirement. Hi mom. Thats the value of ownership. Good morning, 11 00 a. M. Eastern, 8 00 a. M. Pacific. Im jose diazbalart we begin with Breaking News from georgia where the judge overseeing the Election Interference Case against former President Trump and his codefendants says District Attorney fani willis can remain on the case however willis and her office or Special Prosecutor nathan wade need to step aside for the case to continue. The judge said he did not find