Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240704

Historical case, how long they will drag this out, and how it all plays into trumps legal strategy of delay. And, the kick the can congress, once again, they bought more time to avoid a Government Shutdown. And once again, a Republican House speaker is feeling the heat from his own conference. Congresswoman becca of the House Budget Committee joins me live, to bring us inside the chaos. Im jonathan capehart, this is the saturday show. We begin this busy saturday evening, with Breaking News. Our eyes are on michigan, missouri, and idaho, where republicans in those states are Holding President ial caucuses today. Nbc news projects that donald trump won the most delegates of michigans Nominating Convention. All together, between the convention and michigans primary on tuesday, donald trump won 51 delegates, and nikki haley won four. Nbc also Projects Trump won the Missouri Republican caucus, picking up 54 delegates. Trump is expected to sweep idaho as well. We could get those results within the hour. And, we will bring them to you as soon as they come in. Trump held a Campaign Rally in North Carolina earlier today, it is about to speak again in richmond, virginia, at this hour. But the four times indicted on 91 counts former president s most notable victory this week was in court, where he relied on his favorite legal tactic, delay. He traveled to florida yesterday to ask for his classified documents trial to be postponed beyond the Original May 20th Stark date. The Schedule Hearing lasted more than four hours, but judge aileen cannon didnt make a decision. Meanwhile in georgia, trumps lawyers made their final push to remove Fulton County District Attorney fani willis from that election interference case. The judge says he will take up to two weeks to decide whether to disqualify and turn the trial over to another prosecutor. All of this is happening, as the Supreme Court remains silent on the issue of trumps own eligibility to appear on the ballot. With the colorado republican primary just three days away, the justices have yet to rule on the states 14th amendment challenge. That leaves trump on the colorado primary ballot for now. Similar challenges in maine, and now illinois are on hold until the high Court Finally weighs in. But the biggest triumph for trump this week, the Supreme Court agreeing to weigh in on his president ial Immunity Claim in the capitol riot case. Oral arguments set for the week of april 22nd. Folks, thats 51 days from now. And a ruling could take weeks, or months longer, creating a huge slowdown for the Special Counsel. As nikki haley rightly points out, criminal trials dont happen before the election, they might not happen at all. I think all of the cases should be dealt with before november. We need to know whats going to happen, before the presidency happens. Because after that, should he become president , i dont think any of it is going to get heard. Joining me now, former Federal Judge luttig. Judge lydick, welcome to the saturday show. Youve said the Supreme Court could release an opinion as late as july 1st. What would that mean for the timing of trumps January 6th Trial . Jonathan, thank you for having me on with you this evening. The Supreme Courts decision to take this case for review is enormously consequential. Both constitutionally and politically. As a practical matter, it makes almost unlikely that the former president s trial will occur before the election in november. You know, the Supreme Court narrowed the scope of trumps Immunity Claim, it agreed to renew it. But what does that signal to you, about their potential decision. Jonathan, the Supreme Court always frames the question that it wants to decide. In this case, this is no exception. Each party proposed a different question, and the Supreme Court framed the question differently from both of the parties. There is been a lot of discussion about the framing of the question. Frankly, all of that is in a teapot. The Supreme Court framed the question its going to decide, and thats what it will do. That question, presents the question in turn, of whether the former president is immune from prosecution, on the charges that jack smith has brought against the former president. You know, as you know judge luttig, the justice departments socalled 60day rule against bring new charges in the run up to an election doesnt apply, if there is already an indictment. Could trying a president ial nominee this fall still raise issues for the Special Counsel . Well, it would raise tactical and strategic questions, jonathan. But lets go back for a moment on the time table. I think its an likely that the Supreme Court will decide this case before the end of its term, which is around july 1st. Judge chutkan has already said that there must be at least 88 days, lets call it three months, before trial can begin. By my calculation, that would make the trial date beginning in the first week of october, one month before the president ial election. And of course, thats assuming that there are no additional delays beyond those that have already been had, which also is unlikely. Thats why i dont believe that this trial will be had before the election. Of course, its possible that the trial could begin in september or october. But if it did, that means that the trial would straddle the election in november, which is not an Ideal Circumstance for either the courts or the prosecutors, much less for the country. And judge liptak, i know that judge chutkan has said she wants to give the parties 88 days. And she said that months ago. Could she, once the Supreme Court decides, could she then come back and say you know what, scrap the 88 days, youre getting half that time, or you are getting 20 days. We are taking this thing to trial . Well, she could jonathan. But the federal courts dont work that way. And, its unlikely that they are going to work that way in this particular circumstance. This is of course the first time in which a president of the United States has ever been criminally charged and tried for an offense. And of course, these offenses for which he has been charged are some of the gravest offenses that a president could commit against the United States of america. So, the court system is going to do this right, and that means ensuring that the former president has all of his Due Process Rights to a fair trial, and the courts are not going to rush the trial, for purposes of the election in november. Judge lydick, weve got less than two minutes. And ive got three pressing questions on each ask you. First one, considering the activity of Justice Clarence thomass wife in the 2020 election, is unreasonable to believe that thomas should recuse himself from this case . Its not unreasonable, jonathan. But Justice Thomas has faced this question several times in the past, since january 6th. Hes declined to recuse himself in those cases. He is not going to recuse himself in this case either. And, we are only three days away from Super Tuesday. But colorado voters go to the polls. If they have an already early voted. Why hasnt the Supreme Court ruled on the colorado ballot case yet . Your guess is as good as mind, jonathan. Again, the Supreme Court of the United States is simply not going to issue decisions in these landmark cases, in order to economy date the political process. And last question, there is this nugget in the New York Times story today that jumped out about the into election election interference hearing, and judge aileen cannons case in florida yesterday. And it focuses on judge cannons experience. Im going to read this directly to you, from the New York Times. At another point, judge cannon asked the second prosecutor, david whether the government intended to publish its list of trial witnesses. Generally in highprofile insensitive cases, Witness Lists are submitted under seal, and remain out of view until a trial takes place. Mr. Smith in particular seemed shocked by the question, and set up stiff lee in the courtroom. His eyes gone wide in apparent incredulity. Judge luttig, how concerned should the American People be that a judge this inexperienced is at the helm of a consequential case . Its a valid concern, jonathan. But, and judge cannon is relatively new on the federal court. She holds the commission, shes been assigned this matter. And she will try it, and of course every ruling that she makes is subject to review, further in the court of appeals, and they are after on the Supreme Court of the United States. So that this trial to will be held to the highest standards of the Justice System in america, one way or the other, through the appeal process. If not in the first instance by judge cannon herself. Retired Federal Judge jay michael luttig, thank you very much for coming to the saturday show. Thank you jonathan. Up next, Congress Managed to avoid a partial Government Shutdown, but only for one week. Now, House Republicans could surprise us and actually prove some Spending Bills by friday night. Or, this Can Kicking Chaos can continue. Ill ask congresswoman becca of vermont for her take on that, plus a preview of Super Tuesday in her state, and the president s state of the Union Address, after a quick break. You are watching the saturday show, on msnbc you need verizon. Tradein that old thing and get a new iphone 15 pro with tons of storage. So you can take all the pics so many selfies. A preposterous amount of pano that means panoramic. 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A partial Government Shutdown was avoided, after the house and Senate Quickly passed a continuing resolution on thursday. President biden signed the bill into law yesterday. It was the fourth near shut down in recent months, and the deal does nothing to ensure we wont be right back here again, for the proverbial can that battered ten of fiscal responsibility, and stable governments, has been kicked down the road, again, till friday. Under the new deadlines, funding runs out for five federal departments on march 8th. And then, funding runs out for all the other federal agencies two weeks later, on march 22nd. Joining me now, congresswoman becca balint, democrat from vermont, and a member of the house budget, and judiciary committees. Congresswoman ballot, as always, thank you for coming to the saturday show. So. Nice to be with. You we know all thats happening in the can has been kicked down the road, with continued resolutions. Do you think speaker johnson is capable of pushing back against the House Freedom caucus, and getting a deal done by friday . Okay, so lets set it up. Youve got a speaker who is the least experience speaker in 140 years in this country. He is literally learning on the job. And, this is a man who recently appointed Marjorie Taylor greene as an impeachment manager, for the sham Impeachment Trial in the senate of secretary mayorkas. These are not serious people, he is not capable, at this point i believe, of getting these Spending Bills through. Of course, we are going to do everything we can to make sure that we can get some work and compromise across the aisle to get these Spending Bills through. But this is absurd. As you said, we keep coming to the brink, he promised he wouldnt do continuing resolutions, weve already done several continuing resolutions. This is the bare minimum for congress to keep government open, to keep the lights on. And so as you said, weve got two deadlines coming, up one coming right after the state of the union, and another on the 22nd. And so, i know that our Appropriations Members are ready to do the work. We know that people who are desperately trying to get a farm bill through, and fund the health and Human Services agency want to get this done. But he is still beholden to the extremists in his conference. And i was joking with a friend the other day, that we have an expression in my house, which is the clue phone is ringing, pick it up. Like, he is in a conference, where youve got people who still believe that they can pass extremist measures, when they dont have the votes. As nancy pelosi always says, its a math problem. And so, the extremists keep holding out for these massive cuts to social supports that help families across this country. They dont have the votes, so we are going to continue to come back to this. So. So congressman, there is another deadline that i dont think people know about, and they should. So im wondering, how worried are you that Congress Wont need the ultimate deadline of april 30th . Thats when a 1 across the board budget cut goes into effect, if there is no budget in place by then. Yeah, its very, its very concerning. And so, this is a place where we are so lucky and grateful that we have such an experienced leader in hakeem jeffries. I know hes been working so hard with the president , and with mcconnell across the chambers, to make sure that we dont get to that. Because it would be devastating for american families. And so you are right, this is a deadline that is kind of the sleeper deadline out there, that we dont want to come across. And, hakeem, he always says a setback is a set up to a come back. And so, ive been thinking so hard about, weve got this weve got to build on it now. We have to do the work that americans sent us to washington to do, which is pass Funding Bills for the government. All right, congresswoman ballot, i want to turn to the 2024 election, and the impact of the middle east crisis having on politics here at home. Today, the United States completed its first airdrop of food into gaza. Thats great, but should President Biden be more public in his push back against some of the actions taken by israeli Prime Minister netanyahu . Well you know jonathan, i dont know if you know this, i just came back from the middle east. I was with six other members of congress in israel, and in the west bank, talking to people within the palestinian authority, people within the israeli government. Talking to families on the ground in the west bank, and in israel. This is an incredibly traumatized group of people. The palestinians, and the israelis. And you are absolutely right that we need to be doing everything that we can to get that humanitarian aid in. And we pushed, when we were there, the delegation pushed so hard on the team around netanyahu to say, you need to get at least 500 trucks in there. And so i am so relieved to see that we are doing airdrops. But, i would just say to the American People, youve got a president right now who is pushing israel hard. And he is doing everything that he can with with blinken, and with ambassador liu. It is a full court press right now to get that humanitarian aid, to get the ceasefire, get the hostages released, and make sure that we can get some Breathing Room before ramadan. This is all that he is focused on right now, as we look in the world. That is what he is focused on, is making sure that we dont have a larger breakout of violence across the middle east. But its absolutely devastating. And he is well aware of that, and he is working hard to get that aid through. Because this cannot continue. Im looking forward to what the president has to say about this, and a whole host of issues, at a state of the Union Address next week. Vermont congresswoman becca bat, thank you as always for coming to the saturday show. Always love to talk with you. And still ahead, how trumps iron grip on his party caused one of the most controversial sent Senate Leaders in history to give up his leadership role. Dont go anywhere, you are watching the saturday show. Nywe watching the saturday show. Heres to beating these two every thursday. Help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need. Without the stuff you dont. So, heres to now. Boost. Liberty mutual customized my Car Insurance and i saved hundreds. Thats great. I know, ive bee telling everyone. Baby liberty. Oh baby liberty. How many people did you tell . Only pay for what you need. Jingle liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Baby liberty. No, my dentures uncomfortable dracula, lets fight back against discomfort. 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For trusted relief, trust tylenol®. After more than 17 years as the Republican Senate leader, Mitch Mcconnell is stepping down. Love him or hate him, there is no denying the impact of the large Senate Leader of either party in history. And while mcconnell remained a voice for the republican establishment, even he came to realize he couldnt withstand the chaos unleashed on the gop by a man he didnt like much, donald trump. But mcconnells greatest achievement has also been a gift to trump, a man who didnt like mcconnell much either. Mcconnell used the republican presidency to achieve a long held goal, remake the federal judiciary. He did so by confirming more than 200, mostly young and conservative, lower court judges. And, he paved the way for conservative super majority on the Supreme Court, by shepherding three trump nominees to the high courts bench. In breaking some of his own rules in the process. But wait, there is more. Mcconnell also voted to acquit trump during both Impeachment Trials, including on charges of inciting the insurrection. And though he blamed trump for january 6th, mcconnell claimed that the very courts he stacked to help trump, would somehow hold him accountable. If there is no question, if that President Trump is practically, and morally responsible, for provoking the events of the day. We have a criminal Justice System in this country, we have civil litigation. And former president s are not immune from being accountable by either one. Well see about that. Joining me now, charlie sykes, Msnbc Political Contributor and columnist. And daniela diaz, congressional reporter for politico. Charlie, thank you both for both coming to the show. Charlie, your thoughts on mcconnells legacy. Well i do think that you pinpointed two of them. Obviously, the transformation of the federal judiciary, the Supreme Court. But i do think that his legacy is defined by what he did not do in february, 2021, when he knew that donald trump was guilty of fomenting the attack on the capitol. He thought that perhaps he could refer this to criminal prosecution. But if he would have voted in favor of a conviction, we would not be in the political moment we are at right now. And of course, the great irony is that the judiciary that he has done so much to create, may also elect donald trump off the hook. So, this is the great irony, that he says that all of my principles are safe. When in fact, i think the fact that he understands that he is yesterdays that he has been the break on trumpism, up until now. And after he leaves, thats gone, the dam breaks, to use the metaphor. Right, and that is a good segue to the question i wanted to ask you, daniela. Does mcconnells Leadership Departure mean the total takeover of Republican Leadership in congress . We already know that trump and speaker johnson speak on a regular basis. Its inevitable that trump is going to play a role, jonathan, in whoever ends up succeeding mcconnell as republican leader. And remember, there is a huge chance that republicans could take back the majority in the senate after november. So the next person to potentially be the Senate Majority leader, not minority leader, which is what mcconnell is now. But its interesting, we know what trump is already pushing one person to run to succeed him, steve daines. The enrc chair. And steve daines has not decided that he believes it really depends on whether they can take back the majority in the senate, after november. And then also remember, there are people who are not in the senate right now who could potentially have a say in whoever is the republican leader. Someone like carey, like who is running in arizona, if she wins that seat, could have a vote for this. So its really interesting, because it is going to mean that trump is going to have a huge say in who is the next leader. And he might not even win the election, jonathan, just something to note. Thats right. And one more question for you, daniela. The three, jonesboro, so soon, and cornyn, who are in the leadership. Are they toasts, in terms of their chances of being Senate Leader Republican Leaders . Well theres still months until the election. So lets remember that. I think right now, they are going to fight as much as they can. Remember, the senate tends to be a little bit more of a independent body than the house, when it comes to how a lot of the senators vote. A lot of them look at themselves in the mirror and see a future president , as i noted before in my reporting. So, they will obviously make their own decisions very individually minded, republican senators over there. But, it is important to remember that they only need a simple majority, it is not going to be the majority of the senate, so that is something to keep in mind. And charlie, mcconnell is the only Republican Senate leader who is not already endorsing donald trump. Heres what he told reporters on tuesday. Came out and endorsed trump, other lieutenant seven gorst trump. Why are you holding out and endorsing him . I dont have an announcement about that today. Charlie, is there any universe in which mcconnell does not endorse trump . Yes, a rational political universe that we do not inhabit. [laughter] this is a very interesting question, because what does he have to lose, now that he is not going to be the Majority Leader . You know, donald trump has attacked him, has vilified him, has used racist slurs against his own wife. He lost him the majority in the senate, they havent spoken since december of 2020. You know, i think probably mcconnell understands, as well as anybody in congress, what a Trump Presidency would be. But to your question, i think he is likely to fall into line, because everybody is falling into line. The arc of the Republican Party is bending towards complete capitulation, once again, to donald trump. But of course this is ironic, because again, he is going well with a whimper, in some ways, by endorsing the man who has insulted him, who, who he knows is not on the same page. He understands that a Trump Presidency means the abandonment of our allies in nato, the abandonment of ukraine. All of the things that he claimed in that exit speech that you really, really cared about. But he is probably going to bow the need to donald trump, anyway. You know, can we talk about speaker johnson . Because, i was talking with congresswoman about, here we go again, they kick the can down the road, weve got another deadline on march 8th. Is there any, is there any confidence on capitol hill, daniela, that speaker johnson can actually get a deal done to avoid a shutdown on the eighth, to avoid a shutdown on the 22nd, and to ultimately avoid a 1 cut to the budget, if they dont get anything done by april 30th . Jonathan, ive covered the last two speaker races. The two that ive in this congress alone, im on capitol every day. I talk to republicans every day. There is a lot of a lack of confidence for a speaker. Of course remember, they voted for him because he was so new. And it is very obvious that he doesnt have the opposite the experience that other leaders before him have had. But, he was able to come up with six appropriations bills, and reach a deal with the other four that we werent expecting, and it came out right before march 1st. And so, the thing to keep in mind, jonathan, is these next six bills that they have to put through for that march 8th deadline, for that second deadline. Now, they are going to be a lot more hard, there is a lot of poison pills, as democrats call them. Rioters that could be potentially difficult for democrats to support. Abortion policies, Different Things like that. Its the culture war stuff. Culture war stuff that a lot of democrats are not going to support. And remember, it is going to need a lot of democratic support to get it through, as we call it, the Lower Chamber of the house chamber, just because of that really slim majority. So its going to be really really tough for speaker mike johnson, its going to be a true test of his leadership. Yeah. [laughter] it certainly is. I am so tired of this can kicking, my foot hurts, and i dont even work over. There thank you both very much for coming to the saturday show. And coming up, results are coming in from three republican nomination contests tonight. What that means for front runner donald trump in the president ial election, heading into Super Tuesday next week. 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If youre over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. Yall wayfair is the talk of the neighborhood, cmon if youre over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist we wanted a recliner. But it had to be chic. So we wayfaird it. Wayfair for the win. Hey neighbor looking fancy. Fancy . Nah. We wayfaird it and saved a ton. Wayfair does it again. Its beautiful i didnt know you wayfaird. Oh girl we wayfair, tile, faucet. The works. Guess the wayfair word is out wayfair youve got just what i need lets go back to that Breaking News tonight, about republican president ial nominating contests in michigan and missouri. Nbc news projects that donald trump will win the michigan Nominating Convention that allocated the remaining 39 delegates after tuesdays Michigan Republican primary. Nbc news also Projects Trump won, has won the missouri caucuses, picking up 54 delegates. We are expecting results out of idaho any moment. As trump closes in on his partys nomination, new polls show him in a tight head to head hypothetical matchup with President Biden. Bloomberg Morning Council poll released this week shows President Biden trailing trump in all seven swing states. But, since many of the results fall within the polls margin of error, the race is essentially tied in many of those states. Joining me now, christina greer, moynahan, Public Scholars Fellow at city college of new york. And author of black ethnics, race, immigration, in the pursuit of the american dream. And susan del percio, republican strategist and msnbc political analysts. Thank you both very much for being here. So susan, lets talk about these results coming in from michigan and missouri. A clean sweep its looking like for donald trump tonight. Do you think we will see more of the same comes Super Tuesday . Oh i think were going to see a lot more of the same on Super Tuesday. I mean, haley will probably pick up a couple of delegates here and there. But there is no expectation of her winning any state or picking up a significant amount of delegates. Its important to recognize that trump, for as undisciplined as he is, the campaigns have been very disciplined. Going back a couple of years now, theyve really set up these primaries, and states change the rules to his benefit. They are not necessarily proportional, they are about one or takes. All and he said it, up and he is going to get the reward for it. You know christina, in addition to the bloomberg poll, the New York Times released another poll this morning, showing President Biden trailing trump by five points nationally, with a margin of error of 3. 5. That too could essentially be tied. But the question is, should democrats be hitting the panic button now . Or is it still too early . And im so sick of democrats hitting the panic button over every poll. People, calm down christina, the floor is yours. [laughter] well i mean, i think we shouldve hit the panic button when donald trump became the president. And we should keep our hand on that panic button. But jonathan, we have to remember most americans arent paying attention have been following these races for months now, but most americans dont tune in until october. We have to remember even in highly contentious races, only roughly about 60, 60 of voting eligible americans actually bother to pay attention. I think susans point though is really key, jonathan. The difference between 2016 and now is that donald trump actually knows the rules. When he was running before, he had no idea what he was doing. When he was president , for the first term, he really didnt have any idea what he was doing. He actually surrounded himself with republicans who and putting some stopgaps. What makes this election so much more dangerous than 2016 and 2020, is that donald trump has actually gotten his feet wet in the presidency. And so he actually knows, he doesnt need to bother with people who actually care about the constitution. He really wants to get in on day one, and act should become the dictator that he said he wanted to be. So i think thats what makes this election different. And i think what worries me is that far too Many Americans arent paying attention just yet. And, i am trying not to live in a perpetual state of panic until november 5th. But it is really difficult, when donald trump is telling you what he wants to do, what he plans to do if he gets a second term. Oh yeah. And, i made a point on this show to remind people, hes telling us what he is going to do. Susan, both President Biden and donald trump visited the texas border with mexico on thursday. They had distinctly different tones, in discussing the issue of immigration. Lets listen to a few key moments. Folks, its real simple. Its time to act, its long past time to act. The United States is being overrun by the biden migrant crime. We desperately need more resources, we need more agents, more officers, more judges. This is a joe biden invasion. Join me, or ill join you, in telling the congress to pass this bipartisan Border Security bill. So instead of Playing Politics with the issue, why do we just get together and get it done. I call him crooked joe, because hes crooked, and hes a terrible president. Again, weve got two minutes, and i won both of you to weigh in. But susan, you go first. Yeah, youre right to show that side by side way of governing. And one has joe biden wants to govern. And that may be his fault in running against donald trump. Because donald trump has no interest in solving any of our countrys problems. We know, like christina said, we know what he wants, he wants retribution. So he will do anything to keep this country divided. Which, by the way, just go back to those polls you talked about, they are within the margin of error in swing states. We know what happened there in 2016, with 2020. They are supposed to be really, really close. Anything else, i would almost believe a poll that had either one up by eight or ten points. Right, right. And christina, your thoughts on that, that milan of, well crazy on the right part of the screen, from trump. Right, well jonathan, dont forget donald trump campaigned on building a wall. He said that there would be no migrants coming. There is no wall, there has been no progress. The only thing that donald trump did to secure the border was actually separate families, which did not make the border any more secure. Weve got thousands of children who will never see their parents again, thats a trump policy. So i would hope that in our efforts to have bipartisan legislation, we will remind voters about the fecklessness and the ineptitude of donald trump, and his entire administration, when it comes to the border. Broken families left and right. Right, and he is already promising mass deportations, if he gets reelected, and also just a finer point, there was a bipartisan bill that would have done all of the things republicans said they wanted to do. And i didnt do, it because donald trump told him not to do it. Christina greer, susan thank you both very much for coming to the saturday show. Coming up, my conversation with msnbc legal analyst Barbara Mcquade about her new book on the threat of disinformation, and how we can fight it, especially in this important election year. Stay with us. N this important election year. Stay with us. But as you get older, it naturally begins to change, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. Thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory. The secret is an ingredient originally discovered. In jellyfish. In clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve memory. Prevagen. At stores everywhere without a prescription. 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Make more of whats yours. In this election year, the threat of disinformation has reached new heights, permeating every level from politicians to voters. Just listen to what some maga loyalists had to tell nbc news at a recent trump rally. If russia did take over ukraine, would it give you any pause . I dont have a problem with russia. I really dont. I have a problem with ukraine, they are corrupt. I think that people are just ridiculous, that i think that putin is this enemy. He isnt doing anything, he just wants back what was his. Dangerous arguments. And the threat of falsehoods and Conspiracy Theories is underscored in the new book by former u. S. Attorney Barbara Mcquade, entitled attack from within, how disinformation is sabotaging america. She writes quote, enemies of democracy are using disinformation to attack our sovereign right to truthful information, intellectual integrity, in the exercise of the will of the people. This week, i spoke with barbara about how we can fight back against this threat. Barbara mcquade, thank you for coming back to the show. Oh, thanks for having me jonathan, great to be here. Well, congratulations on the book. And in the book, you lay out how disinformation is weakening our democracy. Youre right, and i quote, america is under attack at this very moment, but not from any external enemy. The attack is from within. I think we all, we all see it. The question is, how did we get here . Yeah well, i think that we are at a moment in politics, and in technology, that has created a perfect storm. Technology of course enables social media. And so, what once might have taken weeks or months to reach an audience can now be sent in an instant. So false information, influence campaigns, and other kinds of things can reach people like never before. But i think the other thing that we are seeing at this moment, is this extremely polarized political climate. And i think it is driven by those who want to sow division in our society, to get political gain, to suggest to us that there is only two sides to every issue, and to so demonized The Other Side that the hope is to attract others to their own side in hopes of gaining political power right and in that world you described there is no room for nuance which is unfortunate you write about how ironically free speech is one of the factors that makes us susceptible ive never been able to say that were susceptible to disinformation how do the First Amendment and our emphasis on the right to free speech make this a uniquely american problem yeah you know like you i cherish our First Amendment right to free speech it is necessary in a democracy to be able to speak truth to power but for that reason i think it makes any effort to try to put limits on what we can say on social media and elsewhere very suspicious and people will use the word censorship, to stop anything they dont like. And, we all, we shy away from the word censorship, that it is a powerful word. But, we can do a lot of things to try to check some of the disinformation thats out there, short of censorship. You know on social media, which has grown completely unregulated in the past decade. There are a lot of things we can do to control, for example, the algorithms that are computer programs, that pushes toward more outrageous content. We can require disclosure of the funding of political ads online. They could say whatever they want, but at least we know whos behind these ads. Whether its russia, or some backer of a Political Party, or an individual special interest person, we can at least know. That so, i think that we cant be afraid of putting controls on social media, In The Name Of First Amendment free speech. You know, im writing the snow here. Because what you are describing is a little innovation in political campaigns, where they made the candidates say at the end of their messages, i am joe biden. And i approve this message . To, make sure hague, you want your name with them . You also write about how a persons Political Party often, more often than not trumps their own views on a particular issue. This is, we refer to it as a political tribe. In what ways do purveyors of disinformation exploit that . Yeah, very much so. And social media i think really helps foster that kind of environment, where we live in these social media bubbles, and we are exposed to echo chambers. But i think one of the things that people do is to encourage people to choose their political tribe over truth, by virtue signaling. And so for example, one thing you see among farright republicans, is referring to their rivals as the democrat party. I mean, they certainly know better thats not the real name. Its of course the democratic party. But they do it in a way to demonize the other. Thats not our team, thats the way we mock our opponents. Its almost like sports rivalries. We are on the red team, and we make fun of the blue team. And vice versa. But what people are trying to sow division, thats what they do. And as you said, it leaves no room for shades of gray, it leaves no room for nuance or compromise, which is what is necessary to actually get things done in this country. So then, the ultimate question is, what can we do about it . How can we either guard against disinformation, or more effectively push back against disinformation . Yeah, i think there are a couple of things we can do. And i make some suggestions in the book. I dont think anyone thing will solve this problem altogether. But there are a number of things we can do. And one of my hopes with the book is that by helping people to identify tactics of disinformation, we can recognize it and disarm it. But i think some of the solutions need to come from our government, in terms of regulations of some of the things that weve talked about on social media, not content, but algorithms and ads and other things. And i think the other thing comes from educating ourselves, educating our children, educating the public to be critical thinkers of what they are reading in the media. Dont just trust the, headline look for a second source. There are a number of things we can do to arm ourselves against disinformation. You know, you are preaching my sermon. Because im always saying, the News Consumer in the 21st century america, has as much responsibility as i do as a journalist, when it comes to sharing information. Barbara mcquade, thank you very much for coming back to the show. Congratulations on attack from within. Thanks so much jonathan. Now to the Breaking News, from the west. Nbc news projects donald trump is the winner of idahos republican caucus. That adds 32 delegates to trumps tally for a total of 125 delegates, one today, included in that, nbc news Projects Trump picked up 54 delegates in the missouri caucuses, and 39 delegates from michigans Nominating Convention. Joining me now, christina so as you see, there donald trump has 97. 8 of the vote in the michigan caucuses, and you see there nikki haley, 2. 2 . Now looking at idaho, with 32 delegates at stake. As you see there, donald trump, now the projected winner of that states caucuses, with 84. 3 of the vote in, for 21,151 votes. Nikki haley, with 13. 8 of the vote. Thats 3457 votes. As you see there in the upper right hand corner, 57 of the vote in idaho is in right now. The difference between trump and nikki haley in there is 17,694 votes. And as weve mentioned, this is a big day, of course for a saturday, when youve had the three nominating contests missouri, idaho, and michigan. And as weve been reporting since weve been on the air at 6 00, donald trump is the projected winner in missouri, 54 delegates out of 54 awarded. He is the projected winner in missouri, where 54 delegates were at stake. 100 percent 90 number set of the vote in and 100 percent of the vote 924, thats because thats the missouri caucus. Nikki haley, their 0. 04 . She got zero votes. And also once again, you see there the total delegates won, donald trump has 247, 247 delegates. Nikki haley with 24 delegates. Ron desantis, with nine delegates one with three. We are seeing live pictures of donald trump, speaking right now in richmond virginia. Okay, now lets go to a man, who has more on the results . Hey jonathan , its good to see. I mean its kind of interesting, you are looking at these results come, and you are seeing trump talk right now, and youre looking at the number of delegates that dont from has one, very far away from that fresh old, that is needed. But you certainly know that this race is all but done, when it comes to and i think that question as we approach Super Tuesday becomes, when nikki haley is going to drop out . Because ultimately, this is what is expected now in the political horizon for the Republican Party now. Ayman, i wish, i was watching you talk to me. I have no idea what oh now i can, here now i can hear you say that . Again i would say ill give you the shorter version. And that was for me, when does nikki haley drop out of this race, given what we just saw, and given the fact that we are approaching Super Tuesday, with this insurmountable lead by donald trump, in the overall delegate count . Yeah, i think comes Super Tuesday ayman, its going to be virtually impossible for Governor Haley to stay in the race. Its a huge chunk of the nation that will vote, a huge chunk of the delegates awarded. And i can remember which state there are so many graphics on the screen. I think it was missouri, 100 ascent of the vote, and he got 100 percent of the vote, all of the votes, and she got zero. So i think comes Super Tuesday, the governor will have to have a heart to heart, and bow out of the. Race heart, and bow out of the. Race