Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning 20240704

Important discussions we have had this week. The Supreme Court has agreed now to consider former President Trumps claim of president ial immunity in his federal Election Interference case. We it will further delay a potential trial. The high court has scheduled arguments for april 22nd, and a final ruling might not come until months later at the end of the term in june. If the court ruled in favor of trump the special counsels charges would be dismissed. The u. S. Court of appeals unanimously ruled trump does not have absolute immunity. The Supreme Court does affirmed that, the delays still would push the start of the trial probably into the fall. Lets bring in former litigator and msnbc Legal Correspondent lisa rubin, and former u. S. Attorney and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. Good morning to you both. Lisa, lets pause for a moment, i think this was shocking used a lot of people, lets talk about what the decision is and what it is not, it does not mean the supreme agrees that donald trump has president ial immunity, it means that they are going to hear the case possibly that he does have immunity, and at least knock this down in the fall. Thats right, the way in which the order yesterday was phrased is also a little bit telling. The question that the Supreme Court has agreed to resolve is a narrow one, its weather and if so, to what extent, former president has immunity for his official acts. And, or, alhis official acts as alleged. One of the things that i think is concerning about the way the question is presented, is alleged according to who . If you ask jack smith, the way that the indictment is framed, none of the acts for which they are trying to hold former President Trump criminally accountable were in fact official, that a president plays no official role in the administration of federal president ial elections. And so, the way that this is phrased it slightly troubling even for those who might push back and say this is the Supreme Court trying to button up an important issue that has been percolating and at least two federal courts tiright now, and is likely to reoccur in the georgia case showed the Fulton County r. I. C. O. Case continue beyond this existing motion of fani willis disqualification. Joyce vance, a lot of concern and reaction to this, what anis going on, another del tactic but when you look down at the pike, and you look at how this is going to be seen in history, i mean, i dont see with a reality in which the Supreme Court doesnt agree with the decision that has already been made that a president somehow has immunity s and can have a team taking out another team. I dont think they will go that way, but in the history books, they will be able to show that every stone was unturned, every step of the way in this having said that, there is such concern about losing and going beyond the election. What are your thoughts . Right, its an interesting observation, mika, im reminded that bill barr, which is one of trumps Attorney General, used to say that history is written by the winners. That is the concern here, whether the Supreme Court has given trump such a big win by adding two more months of delay into this case, that it makes it more difficult for donald trump to be portrayed as the criminal d that many people who have looked at this evidence believe he should be portrayed as. I agree the Supreme Court is extremely unlikely to reach any conclusions other than donald trump specifically, and they dont need to talk about all president s here, that is a necessary. They can look at donald trump and say this individual, this former president is not entitled to any form of immunity for his effort to interfere with an election. They dont need to talk about potential crimes a president can commit, they dont need to talk about whether or not the president s official acts might be cloaked in immunity, for when he is making time pressure decisions on the battlefield. Thats something that jack smith has argued that it doesnt need to be a part of this case, but for the court to look at Donald Trumps conduct here and reach any conclusion other than the fact that he can be prosecuted in the criminal Justice System would be tantamount to saying that president s ntare in fact above the law, and that donald trump is above the law. And that, not to be dramatic about it, would be the end of one of the most cherished principles and democracy, that no man is above the law. I dont think youre being dramatic at all, thats what is at stake here. Jonathan lemire, you cannot separate this, its a legal question, from the politics. The idea that donald trump and his legal team has been to delay, delay, delay if he can get himself reelected in november he becomes president , he controls the Justice Department, he can make all of this go away. As you look at the calendar, the Supreme Court ruling comes g out in june, sometimes mid june, a trial we are hearing may not start until september, october. This does, in many ways, help Donald Trumps cause as he looks to have this stuff just go away. Yes, so Many Democrats reached out to me yesterday like i cant believe he will get away with it again. Theres a sense of frustration that trump always seems to escape, slip the hook. A few things, thats a legal analysis, its probably right, the Supreme Court to take the case even though we expect that they will will agree with the lower court. Lets talk about the president ial campaign coand the timelines here of the four cases. We know the georgia case has become a bit of a mess, its also sprawling to begin with that is always perceived as not starting until 2025. The classified documents case, there are real reasons for delay here, but trump pulled in a friendly judge that seems to go along with the delay tactics. This case now may not happen until the fall or perhaps after the election if trump wins he can wave his hand and make the Attorney General make this go away. That leaves the new york case which is scheduled to start in a few weeks, but is perceived by most as the weakest case, the one that may not carry prison time where he to be convicted. I think when we come to the end of this its what Biden Campaign aides have been saying all along, we cant bank on the court to bail us out. They are going to have to win the election in the campaign. And that is the truth, our friend was on the show earlier and said exactly that that she has never thought that the defeated donald trump is going to come in the court. I completely agree, and while i think that for many reasons it is unfortunate that trump always seems to escape justice, at the same time, we dont want our judges and our rule of law being dictated by political timetables. Likely, i talked to a Supreme Court insider yesterday, and he says the colorado ruling, that that case, that trump will win probably. In this case trump will lose, and its likely that both might be unanimous and the court might be unified in these decisions. If that happens, it is a good show of strength for the rule of law in america just that the process has gone through the steps. Thats right, lisa let set aside the politics. What should we expect, theyve agreed to hear this now on april, what does that look like . And what sort of timeline should we expect for a decision . And if you will, if assuming elise is right and they will against trump in the case and the trial proceeds, judge chutkan has says that she will give the parties time to prepare. What imis your best guess as to when this might come to trial . Lets start with the math w that is remaining, when Donald Trumps case was paused to allow for further consideration of the Immunity Issue there were mm88 days left to trial, judge chutkan has committed herself to giving donald trump around seven months to prepare for trial. We have to assume that she takes that 88 they remained are very seriously. She has also said including through a pre questionnaire that went out to prospective jurors in the Washington Area that this is a trial that will take around three months. So you have to build into the calendar that 88 days, plus 90 days t to try the case if you think that this is going to happen before the election. Thats why folks like me are asking the Supreme Court why because time is quickly elapsing here. There are folks who believe wh that the Supreme Court could rule quickly after the april 22nd oral argument. Our friend is one who believes that the court will render ruling by sometime in early may. On the other hand if you believe that the court is likely to push this decision until the end of the term in june, which usually ends at the very end of june or july 1st, like our friend judge michael looting, then you are in a crunch with respect to the calendar, and if and when a trial can begin. Theres also finally the question of department of justice policy. Ive heard a number of folks on our air and other places say, wait a second, the department t of justice prohibits taking steps in a case like this, 60 to 90 days before an election. That is not my understanding of doj policy which prohibits overt investigative steps, not the trying of the case. But, more importantly, to the partner of justice wont be in control of when this cases tried. That will be up to judge tanya chutkan, if and when the cases returned to her. In that instance, i believe that judge chutkan would proceed even if we are well into general election territory at that point. John . Lisa, by the way i called the hamilton reference, joyce vance, let me ask you, you said yesterday you think its unlikely that we see this trial before the election for all the reasons that lisa just laid out. What kind of a timeline given your experience in the court is realistic for people to expect here . Right, i mean, its possible that there could be an aggressive timeline where the sun and the moon and stars lineup and the case gets to trial. But, i will tell you, willie, 25 years of trying cases at the doj these things dont run like clockwork. For one thing there is some administrative time that it takes after the Supreme Court issues its ruling to get the mandate back to the district th court so that judge chutkan can get back to work. It would be a mistake for her, and i dont think we will see her give trump any less time for trial that she had initially said he would get. Thats the 88 days or so that is left on his Trial Prep Clock for the amount of time that this case has been the reason you dont touch for the time is of course that gives trump the ability to argue that if hes convicted and the case goes on appeal that he was denied his due process, right . What we really dont want to see is this case getting reversed on appeal if there is a conviction. Beyond that there are all sorts of things i get in the way, witnesses can get sick, the judge may have some other events on her kyle and or once the case comes back. We suspect she will make every effort to give this case priority, but there is some realities. Theres early voting lurking in the background of all of this, not everyone will vote on november 5th, some voting will start 30, 40 days in advance of that, so the possibility that this case could have a jury struck get all the way to the evidence get the jury time to render a verdict and have all of that accomplish before people begin voting its pretty unlikely at this point. Coming up we will get to Hunter Bidens day on capitol hill, and what lawmakers are saying about his closeddoor deposition as part of the gop Led Impeachment Inquiry into President Biden. Morning joe is coming back. Esi. Morning joe is coming back. Even days after using. Most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. Ask about nurtec odt. Liberty mutual customized my Car Insurance and i saved hundreds. Thats great. I know, ive bee telling everyone. Baby liberty. Oh baby liberty. How many people did you tell . Only pay for what you need. Jingle liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Baby liberty. 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And how you business is with simple, affordable and reliable shipping. Usps ground advantage. Is it possible to count on my internet like my customers recount on me . Ing. It is with comcast business. Keeping you up and running with our 99. 9 network reliability. And security that helps outsmart threats to your data. Moaire dida twoo . Your data, too. Theres even roundtheclock customer support. So you can be there for your customers. With comcast business, reliability isnt just possible. Its happening. Get started for 49 a month. Plus, ask how to get up to a 800 prepaid card with a qualifying internet package. Dont wait, call and switch today i think its extremely disturbing to see the lack of professionalism, the lack of grounding and the abuse of public resources, and abuse of public power in order to pursue something that truly, whose point at this juncture is unclear. This whole thing has been a tremendous waste of our legislative time and the peoples resources. I cannot believe that they have found a new low, it is so embarrassing to sit in the room for an hour, while they try to weave Conspiracy Theory after Conspiracy Theory, something that only embarrasses them further. Its clear that there is no there there. Democrats on the Oversight Committee reacting to yesterdays closeddoor deposition by hunter biden, who struck a defiant an emotional tone during his testimony as part of the gop Led Impeachment Inquiry into his father, President Biden. Hunter condemned the investigation as a partisan political pursuit that was based on a false premise and fueled by lies, and reiterated his stance that he never involved his father in any of his Business Dealings, while also acknowledging mistakes he had made, pointing to his battle with addiction. We are told, during the nearly sevenhour long closeddoor deposition, there were heated moments between republicans and democrats regarding interruptions during lines of questioning. After his testimony, hunter said his deposition went great, so far republicans have yet to turn up any evidence in their Impeachment Investigation. Joining us now congressional investigations reporter for the Washington Post jackie alemany, and senior Political Columnist for political jonathan martin. Good to have you both, jacqui, i will start with you with, is there anything that republicans came up with of substance, and i would point are people going to say this is taking away from other incredibly important issues of our time, like foreign aid and government shutdowns and actual real needs of the American People. Yes, mika, i think if anything republicans will have to reckon with the fact that ive been told by several sources who were in the room for that hearing, that hunter biden happened to be one of the most prepared, disciplined and on Message Witnesses that they have had appeared before the committee yet who spoke very eloquently of a broad swath of evidence, some of it unsubstantiated, some of it, you know presented in sort of dribs and drabs context last Text Messages and communications that they have cherry pick from the mountain of records that they have obtained so far. And that there has been still no there there, for anyone who thought that this was going to be the smoking gun, the star witness, it certainly is disappointing, hunter biden spoke about a lot of instances that republicans have pointed to as wrongdoings as examples being drunk or high at the time of those communications. Quite frankly as someone in the room told me in a readout that he was laying out the times when he said his father was press into certain Business People like this one text message that has been reference that he was in communication with a chinese associate that he was doing business with, and texted him in a Whatsapp Message that he was with his father right now. He said during that deposition that that was actually a lot, and that he was under the influence. That goes back to the really bigger story about hunter biden right now which is that he is determined to stay sober, and has viewed this ask each of his fathers reelection, and as key to batting down these accusations, all of which so far unsubstantiated that his father was directly involved with any of his Business Dealings with foreign associates. Jacqui, you would think after a series of humiliating setback for this committee, the latest being the arrest of mr. Smirnoff what one time was a star witness of the fbi Justice Department, today was making everything up, claims of bribes that joe biden received that he did not receive, you think the committee might walk away, but Sherman Coleman made it clear that his self describe smoke but no fire yet investigation, he said weve heard contradictory things it Hunter Bidens testimony that need further reviews. Suggesting that we are going to keep the ball in the air with insinuations and suggestions, but no evidence that there was wrongdoing here. Its not the goal here, just to keep this live through the election . That is, willie, a typical Calm Orient Tactic to continue to muddy the water and lob allegations across cable news and conservative media that have been proven unsubstantiated time and time again. I imagine we are going to continue to see that, but perhaps to a lesser extent, even if fox news has quieted on several fronts of covering some of the accusations comers has been making, and he has been facing criticism from his colleagues who have not been happy with his media process, where he has put forward this context last cherrypicked evidence gone and spoken about it and the evidence, when you look at it a little bit further fall on quite flat, but we are going to turn to the Impeachment Trial which is a whole other discussion about whether or not it is a substantiated those are substantiated articles of impeachment against mayorkas, but it is Counter Program in to give comer and the House Oversight Judiciary Committee a bit of cover from an investigation that in its to tell it, easel far, has been a failure. Up next the Washington Post explains why Donald Trumps latest attempt to court black voters is doomed to fail. Is d. Without the stuff you dont. So, heres to now. Boost. 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So you can feel confident in your financial choices. Voya, well planned, well invested, well protected. Nice to meet ya. My name is david. Ive been a pharmacist for 44 years. When i have customers come in and ask for something for memory, i recommend prevagen. Number one, because its effective. Does not require a prescription. And ive been taking it quite a while myself and i know it works. And i love it when the customers come back in and tell me, david, that really works so good for me. Makes my day. Prevagen. At stores everywhere without a prescription. It happened last friday, in South Carolina, as a reminder here are some of what the former president said at the black conservative federations annual gala. These lights are so bright in my eyes that i cant see too many people out there, but i can only see the black ones, i cant see any white ones, you see. Thats how far of come. That is how far of come. I got indicted for nothing, for something that is nothing, there were doing it because its Election Interference, and then i got indicted a second time, a fourth time, a lot of people said that that is why the black people like me, because theyve been hurt so badly and discriminated against, and they view me as im being discriminated against, its been amazing. Ive been indicted for you, the American People. Im being indicted for you, the black population. The mugshot weve all seen the mugshot, and you know who embraced it more than anybody else, the black population. Its incredible, black people Walking Around with my mugshot, and they sell them for 19 apiece, it is amazing, millions of these things have been sold. So a bunch of racism there on top of a lie about the assault on our democracy, i got and decided for nothing. Just for nothing, and they did it again. This piece is entitled Donald Trumps con man hustle for the black vote is not going to work. You took a look at his history a little bit. Thats all you have to do, The First Time Donald Trumps name was in the newspaper was in 1973 when the trump company, it wasnt called the Trump Organization then, it was his fathers company, he had taken a leading role in the company was sued by the Justice Department for discrimination for refusing to rent to African Americans and they entered a Consent Decree promising not to do it anymore without admitting guilt so that was The First Time, then there was a central park five, the black and latino men who were wrongly convicted of a brutal rape. He took out from page, full page ads in the new york newspaper saying bring back the Death Penalty, and even after they were exonerated by dna, he refused to apologize. And he insisted that they were still guilty, for some reason. Even though dna proved that they were not, and they were all released and exonerated. And it goes on and on. His history is one of frank and overt racism and its fair for all to see. Anyone who looks at that is not going to believe, they are not going to be out buying trump sneakers. Michael, you remember The First Time around what do you have to lose . There is something resonant about that, in politics its a question that you can ask any audience, but i think to jeans point, the reality of it is with trump there is nothing they are substantively because of his own history that would tell me that i would have something to gain with him. And that has been proven time and time again as you listen to, you know, him listen him talk to black people, as if they are not there and when i hear him saying black people it reminds me of some 1950s redneck who is referring to them, author, even though they are in the room. When you say the lights are so bright i can only see the black people the black population. I dont want to make too much out of it, because it is what it is, its donald trump but that says a lot about the narrative that he puts out there, that he thinks so little of the Black Community that he can get our vote with giving us greater access to Menthol Cigarettes and a nice pair of sneakers, and i am so happy where my mugshot on your teacher, because you can identify with me because most of you are in the criminal Justice System. That is his narrative to the community, nothing about disparate in the Health Community Maternal Mortality nothing about the mortality among black women and babies, nothing about fair housing, redlining that goes on the ballot manatees. They come up with here is another economic plan we want to put up that mostly white people benefit from, because there are no resources that are put in black entrepreneurism, seriously put into black entrepreneurialism, suits of black economic engines that exist with those who are creating jobs or trying to create jobs. You know, joe, i think the whole thing for me is just more of the pandering bs that this iteration of the Republican Party think they can get away with and that is enough to we go in front of the black people and refer to them as the black people and say hey, you have your sneakers and your menthol. It reminds me of ross crow, he was going before the naacp and he made sure everybody knew that he wrote the speech himself, and he kept referring to his audience as you people, you people [laughter] that did not go over so well. It didnt have a life touch, north as donald trump. We remember in 2016, he said where is my African American . He was at the rally and he found one black guy in the crowd, and pointed at him, and yet jonathan lemire, despite this approach trump people still think that they are going to increase the black vote for donald trump. I mean its like in michigan and other states, its a cornerstone, they talk about it all the time, a Campaign Official was telling me, i will bet you anything that he will get 20 of the black vote in 2020, and i say yeah, i will take that bet, it just wont happen. And you look with this top is ceaseless, donald trump appeals to black men more, and the black vote is going to be he got about 68 , according to ap vote cast in 2016 and he got six to 8 in 2020, unchanged. I bet he will get 68 in 2024, and yet the Mainstream Media talks about this constantly, just like they used to talk about yes, donald trump didnt have the greatest economy, no he didnt. In fact he was buying jimmy carter gdp growth. He was behind six of the president since the 1960s. Its just this garbage is repeated so much, that actually people, even in the press they pick it up and take it as gospel. Coming up, msnbc legal analyst and friend of the show, barbara mcquade, joins us with her new book on how disinformation is sabotaging america. W disinformation is sabotaging america. Ucard gets you in with medicare advantages Largest National provider network. How bout using it at the pharmacy . Yes your ucard is all you need. Huh thats easy can it help keep my smile looking good . Yep use your ucard at the dentist. Say cheese get access to what matters with the ucard only from unitedhealthcare. When you put in the effort, but it starts to frizz. You skipped a step. Tresemme silk serum. Use before styling for three days of weightlessly smooth hair that frizz cant beat. New tresemme keratin smooth collection. Watch your step thats why visionworks makes it simple to schedule an eye exam that works for you. Even if you have a big trip to plan around. 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Its not known if sotyktu has the same risks as jak inhibitors. Find what Plaque Psoriasis has been hiding. Theres only one sotyktu, so ask for it by name. So clearly you. Sotyktu. Oh what a good time we will have you. Can make it happen. Try Dietary Supplements from voltaren for healthy joints. I am every opponent youve ever faced. Try Dietary Supplements from voltaren lets dance lizard. I can take any form i desire. Awesome i mean its disturbing, but its awesome. I got indicted for nothing, for something that is nothing, they were doing it because its Election Interference. I stand before e today not only as your past and hopefully future president but as a proud political dissident, i am a dissident. November 5th will be our new liberation day, but for the liars and cheaters, and sensors, and impostures who have commandeered our government, it will be their judgment day. Their judgment day. That was former President Trump campaigning over the weekend once again blaming the numerous indictments against him as an attempt by democrats to stop it dodge his reelection campaign. That argument seems ridiculous, at first, but when its paired it by officials over and over again, it becomes more believable in the eyes of voters. A new poll this month shows nearly three fourths of republicans now agree that federal Election Interference case against trump is being conducted unfairly. The rise of disinformation, especially in politics has become one of the biggest threats to free and fair elections. The new book from former u. S. Attorney barbara mcquade, attack from within, how disinformation is sabotaging america, explains how it is done, and what to do to stop it. I dont know if it can be stopped at the rate we are going. Barbara i cant wait to hear about this, i mean, you saw right there just over and over again donald trump, either exaggerating things or lying flat out, and we know it reverberates across Many Tv Networks and websites completely not answered too with the truth or pushed back upon, and it just lives out there, those lies. How does one, in america countered this information so that voters get the truth . One of the things i talk about in the book is how people are choosing tribe over truth, so does it matter so much what the statement is, what matters is who says it, and with donald trump, and what others have done, is to sow demonize their opponents, and create the impression that there are only two sides to every issue, that im on the side of good, and my opponent is on the side of evil i have so demonized them that you shouldnt believe anything they say, and that all of these allegations against me are fake news, its all just an effort when to interfere with the election and other things. What can we do about that . A number of things we can do. At the government level, there are things we can do, for example with regulation of social media which has been allowed to grow in some ways wonderfully, there has been a lot of innovation in tech, but we have allowed things like anonymous accounts, like bots to Amplify Messages that maybe not very popular but appear to be garnering likes and shares. We allow algorithms to push us towards content that outrages us, that is one thing, i think, that we need to cover at the governmental level, we need to reform the way that we do Campaign Finance after the case, theres all kinds of dark money in our system, the people who have the power are benefiting from that, its difficult to make headway there. There are also things we can do at an individual level, number one we have to have the discipline ourselves to try to figure out what is truth and what is false, one of the things that this informers do is to create an illusion that truth doesnt matter, truth is for suckers. People become cynical and mom and disengage from politics. We need to take responsibility for ourselves to make sure that we are learning the truth, and we can do that with Fact Checking websites and by turning to media that is credible, things like fact check dot org, and other organizations that work to debunk false claims online. Barbara, this is such an important book to come out right now, thank you so much for doing this, writing this book, and thank you for being with us today. Lets blow up a myth here that it is just roughs, in some faraway place, away for media outlets, Mainstream Media outlets that are believing this, because its not, highly educated people, with advanced degrees, repeat a lot of these lies. I have two Friends Of Mine who will say, oh i dont look at the news anymore because it is just so hard to figure out who is telling the truth. And yet she goes on every Trash Website out there spreading these lies, and the second thing is, ive had another friend who i tried to work through, a very close friend, for months bring me your lie, he brings a, most of them were from epic times a chinese Colt Conspiracy website, and i found that after i disproved one thing after another if he would even admit to that, then another lie would pop up, what about this, what about that, and it reminds me of hitler talking about flooding the zone with lie after lie, after lie. After or while people get exhausted and give up, this is happening to people with advanced degrees. Its a concept, and we see it in russia to with Latimer Putin they call it the flood, i will flood the zone with so much information that people dont know what to think, and they check out of politics altogether. As you said, it isnt groups, its plenty of smart people, but we were convinced that we need to which party is aligned with us, and which is not. People dont want to change their minds because theyve been told that The Other Side is the devil, the radical left this dog over an america, woke culture and other things. I find that one tactic i talk about in the book that can be useful is to talk to people and ask about the evidence that supports their claim. It isnt so much the facts that are out there, but what are the underlying facts not supported . Whats the data . Whats the evidence . I come from a world of courts where you cant just say things and have a jury believed to be true, you have to show evidence to back it up. And if all they are talking about is someone said something, that shouldnt be sufficient. So i think being patient, kind with our friends, and also recognizing that there are people up there who are deliberately going along with a con to advance their political agenda, or profit agenda we talked with fox news when they paid the 700 Million Dollar settlement to dominion Voting System when they fostered lies about machine flipping votes from donald trump to joe biden. And so, we need to overcome, theres a lot of force out there for lies, but i think to have america means so have a democracy based on truth. Next, we will take a look at a new series that follows filmmakers as they examine key issues impacting their home towns in texas. Ting their home towns in texas. Even days after using. Most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. Ask about nurtec odt. If you spit blood when you brush, it could be the start of a domino effect. New parodontax active gum repair breath freshener. Clinically proven to help reverse the four signs of early gum disease. 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What are you doing in town, brother . I often marvel at the Heart Of Texas and this is what it looks like. Thats a look at the new hbo documentary trilogy god save texas. Each episode follows a different filmmakers journey through the hometown as it chronicles the cities complex history. The series looks at how residents have been impacted by the texas prison system, the oil business, its based on the book got safe texas a journey in the soul of the lone star state. Also with us and we winner alex stapleton, she directed the second episode of the series, the price of oil which airs tonight on hbo. Good morning to you both, lets start lawrence with The Big Picture on this in the book you wrote about the state you love so much and why you think texas may need saving. The tidal is a prayer, the i got into this because my editor at the new Yorker David Remnick asked me to explain texas because he couldnt understand why i live here. And honestly i wonder that myself. But, i dont think texas is properly understood in the rest of the country, people have really strong opinions, pro or con and there is a lot of complexity that is mixed, and its important to understand texas because it is growing so fast that it will be the dominant feature in American Politics by 2050, when it is the size of new york and california combined. It is changing demographically, in such a dramatic way that the taxes of 2034 will look nothing like the texas of 2014. Alex, ive always been struck by by the great historians love of our own state of texas, and yet her concern at the same time reminds me of a wagner clip about i love the south, i hate the south, texas at times what makes itself difficult to love for a lot of natives, talk about that. Yes, i mean, thats what was so great about what larry wrote and what resonated with me is that as texans a lot of us struggle with the good and bad of the state. And that is something that is part of the texan identity, within texas there is a big paradox, theres a lot of things that dont make sense, there are a lot of us who vote against our interest, we live in communities where we dont quite understand some of the harmful things that are around us and i think that there seems to be a new age in the state where we are trying to make sense of it, and the series is a step towards that direction. Lawrence, what does the film and what does the book tell us, what does texas tell us about the intersection because you have a state in which minorities are growing very fast, but it doesnt elect democrats to statewide office. If you extrapolate from texas for the rest of the united state, is the assumption for democrats the demographics is working in democrats favor just wrong . Yes, we would look at what is happening in texas right now in scratch your head, right . Its those urban state in america, four of the top ten cities in population or in texas, its one of the youngest states in the nation, all of those are democratic vectors that seem to have made no difference in the elections at all. Its as if we are living in an enchanted forest, you know. Somebody is going to break the spell. And because the elected officials dont really represents the population of texas. Alex, your episode is airing tonight will tell us about how oil has shaped texas . Well, oil is a major industry, its historically shaped the state. Im from houston and i think that this is the Energy Capital of the country, i wanted to look deeper into that, and have a conversation about how the business has impacted communities of color, specifically my family, im seventh generation texan, and seventh generation i think there is a great myth about the money that the oil brings, the boom that the oil brings for a city that is in texas, and in this area, it doesnt bring, you know, it doesnt rain down cash. Instead, a lot of people are severely impacted by the harmful effects, the harmful Environmental Impact that it has on people with, their health, their housing, its part of the king communities. We have another hour of morning joe weekend coming up right after the break. We will be right back. The brea. We will be right back. Sometimes, the lows of Bipolar Depression feel darkest before dawn. With caplyta, theres a chance to let in the lyte™. Caplyta is proven to deliver significant relief across Bipolar Depression. 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Very bad things happened. We work for the American People but not the Democratic Party the wework for the American People. First of all, donald trump can even speak in complete sentences. When he does, he is lying. Or hes throwing out taunts against governors. Again, like a child. Like a five year old. I guess people who vote for him like petulant little brats. I dont know why. They dont let their kids acts like petulant little brats. Maybe they want a president who is a petulant little brat. And why he was saying things were better in 2020 than in 2016. As we have said time and again, that is a complete lie. Border crossing, illegal Border Crossings were at an alltime low, or a 50year low under barack obama and joe biden in 2016. 2017 when donald trump got into office, that is when the border crisis really exploded. Again, donald trump is no longer a blank slate. This is not 2016. There is a crisis at the border, he had four years as president to do something about. It he controlled washington for the first two years. Both houses of congress. He didnt build the wall he promised. He didnt do any of these things, which speaks to the idea that, of course, he wants to keep this issue alive. He wants to keep it up in the air. That is why he has directed his lieutenants in the House Of Representatives not to sign on to this bipartisan legislation. If they do, it gets that the problem and begins to resolve. It gets better. And he believes that works in the favor of joe biden. We saw it again yesterday, the contrasting styles. One man he now actually wants to work with republicans he wants to get something done on the border. One man wants to keep an issue alive. Lets go down the right now to White House Reporter for the Washington Post, jasmine abu to lab. She is in brownsville, texas, covering President Bidens visit. Jasmine, good to see you. What did you see yesterday on the ground . Does the white house believe now that this is an issue that they can run on . Something they perceived as a weakness for joe biden . I think at the very least the white house is helping to blunt the attacks from republicans. Polls show that this is a pretty big weakness for President Biden. People overwhelmingly trust former President Trump on immigration more than they trust President Biden. Now you see President Biden has felt like he has an opening to not just try to evade the issue but to try to run on, and they go on the offensive. I think thats what you saw, both biden and trump doing yesterday. Trying to take control of the issue. Obviously trump was calling it a biden migrant invasion. Hurling his usual insults. Biden was trying to strike this tone, making it very clear because at one point in his remarks, let me be very clear about what happened. The United States senate was ready to pass this and someone said dont do this because they would benefit the incumbent. You have seen him in recent weeks, one, toughening his rhetoric significantly on immigration. Willing to take these measures and to talk about things that were anathema to democrats for a long time. And to, to work to try to remind people that he was willing and eager to sign these tough measures into law. Republicans had agreed to them. They demanded some sort of Border Security package as part of the more than 100 Billion Dollar National Security supplemental and then they decided not to support it because trump said not to. I think trump said it would be a gift to the radical left democrats. I think biden now is working to remind people of that. He was ready to sign. This this is why didnt happen. Jasmine, sam stein here, it is one thing to go to the border and try to create this contrast and then produced a contrast that we just. The other is to go ahead issue executive actions to deal with the the Biden White House are some actions that would, objectively, a mirror although not duplicate actions trump took while he was in office. Im wondering if you can unpack what the white house is thinking there and if they risk any sort of backlash from the Progressive Community over adopting that sort of Policy Posture . That is a great point. They definitely risk a lot of backlash from the Progressive Community. Already they are getting backlash from immigrants Rights Groups for the Border Package Put forward. And the measures that the white house has florida not been reporting on a very aggressive measures. Its sort of blurs the line between trumps Immigration Policy and bidens Immigration Policy. Democrats of course have been quick to note to be not separating children from their parents but these are much tougher measures than democrats are used to. There is definitely a risk of alienating a more Progressive Wing of his base. The Washington Post, jasmine abby talib. Thank you so much for your reporting this morning. We appreciated. We have a lot more to get to this hour. Morning joe weekend continues after a short break. Rning joe s after a short break. Known as a passionate artist. Known for loving the outdoors. Known for getting everyone together. No one wants to be known for cancer, but a treatment can be. Keytruda is known to treat cancer. Fdaapproved for 16 types of cancer, including certain earlystage cancers. One of those cancers is triplenegative Breast Cancer. Keytruda may be used with Chemotherapy Medicines as treatment before surgery and then continued alone after surgery when you have earlystage Breast Cancer and are at high risk of it coming back. Keytruda can cause your Immune System to attack healthy parts of your body during or after treatment. This may be severe and lead to death. 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With a little kung fu strength and by connecting my devices to the most powerful force of all. Skadoosh. Hah, huh . Cool right . Amazing. Harness the power of xfinity internet and stay connected to the things you love. Ah, theyll be like this for hours. Hello dad, hello dad, hello da. Uhoh. Good bunnies. Ahh i think when the transcript comes out, it is going to read well for him because they did a great job prepping him. But the reality is, when you get down to where, you start parsing the words and your allies, oh yeah. That is very interesting. What . So, well, when the transcript comes out it is going to read well for him. The republican member of the oversight and Judiciary Committee andy biggs of arizona with that assessment of the transcript of the hunter biden closeddoor deposition to which he received, interesting. Yesterday the House Oversight and Judiciary Committees publicly release the full 229 Page Transcript of hunters testimony as part of their impeachment inquiry into his father, President Biden. The document, with some redactions, addressed numerous topics including hunters laptop, addiction, joe biden, Donald Trumps soninlaw, Jared Kushner, was mentioned. Hunter attempted to draw a contrast with the scrutiny hes received from the committee and questioned why they were not probing Jared Kushner for his own foreign Business Dealings. When a lawmaker asked hunter whether he worked with foreign governments he responded, i never worked for a country. I am not a Jared Kushner. Hunter also pushed back on republicans for not investigating the money kushners Firm Received after he left the white house in 2021. When Jared Kushner flies to saudi arabia, picks up Two Billion Dollars, comes back and puts it in his pocket, okay. And trump is running for president of the United States. You guys have any problem with that . Hunter biden also testified, he never crossed the bright lines of asking his father to help his Business Partners and was always sensitive at keeping his father at arms length. One thing that we, that i was fully aware of my entire life is, my dad was an official of the United States government, he said. There were very bright lines that i abided to, that i was very, very, cognizant of. I made certain that i never engaged with my father in asking him to do anything on my behalf, or on behalf of any client of mine. Joining us now a democratic member of the house Oversight Committee, congressman dan goldman of new york. So, what did they find . What happened here . I hear there was even chuckling at time at the stupidity of it all. This is a lot of time being spent trying to, i guess, impeach the president at some point here. Is there anything . Zero. Absolutely nothing. The remarkable thing about this 229Page Transcript, when you read it, thats how little of it relates to joe biden which is the ostensible purpose of this investigation which has now moved into an Impeachment Investigation with 14 months in the books. There are a couple of things you read that i think were very important. When hunter biden asked the republican members of congress, do you have any problem with that . There were a couple who said, yes. It is not in the transcript but they said yes. Others were nodding. He did a very good job of confronting them with the difference between what he did, dealing in International Business with non government officials, non government entities, versus Jared Kushner who received Two Billion Dollars from the Saudi Arabian government right after he was the point person on Middle East Policy for the trump administration. After the Advisory Board of the saudi governments Investment Arm recommended not investing in him because he had never done what he was starting to do. The contrast is so stark because it is so obvious that what Jared Kushner did deserves investigation. What hunter biden did, at this point, is just purely punitive. Just purely attacking someone who has made mistakes and admitted to them. But he was not a public official and never has been. It is purely being done right now just to provide Election Fodder for donald trump. Well congressman, good morning. It is good to have you back with us. You let me on my question which is Jared Kushner, his name came up several times in that interview. That deposition yesterday. Jared kushner received Two Billion Dollars from the saudis. James comer, Chairman Comer and others, want to talk about the 1300 dollar car payments for ford pickup truck that hunter biden received from his father and then reimbursed later. Is it your sense that there are any republicans who believe this has gone on too long . That it is a farce . That all of their Star Witnesses have now become either fugitives or indicted by the Justice Department . But they come out of these meetings and they tweet, breaking news. Hunter biden says this or that. It never amounts to anything. The chairman of the committee, james comer, continues to say, there is a lot of smoke here. We are gonna find that fire pretty soon. Or do they can see that this may be something on the margin hurts joe biden among a certain subset of voters so they will just keep this ball in the after the election . I think that there are many republicans, congressman bigs comments about how the transcript will read well for him, he is one of the staunchest supporters of impeachment. If he is saying that, that indicates that there are many unders who really question this. Even matt gaetz has gone on the air and said there is not enough to impeach him here. The other members of the Republican Party will not vote. They do not have the votes for impeachment. They cannot bring this to the floor. What you have is hunter biden putting the nail in the coffin on any allegations which were bogus and unsupported to begin with about foreign influence peddling. On the one hand, and on the other hand you have these Bogus Burisma allegations which have been debunked over and over. Now it comes out that the source that they were relying on. The only evidence they had was a confidential Human Source Reporting to the fbi, on cooperated and unverified in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, now we know not only was that source lying but that the source was working with russian intelligence to plant this story in order to interfere in the election. Its not just, oh, this investigation has blown up and it is over. It is now at the point, willie, where if the republicans continue to go down this Impeachment Investigation, they are knowingly doing it to assist Vladimir Putin in interfering with our upcoming election. It is far more serious than o james comer at this point is an embarrassment and should be embarrassed by such a terrible investigation. It is now much more serious. These House Republicans are going to be complicit in russias efforts to install donald trump as president , again. Congressman, im trying to understand the politics again. Steve ragnow was up here before showing me the growing independents in the Supreme Court. Tell me the one voter who actually would care about this. Thats what i dont understand. Forget the moral issue, the point that you are picking. From the politics of it it is in a. The politics are interesting because you have the farright and the economic year of newsmax and fox news, sean hannity peddling this. They already have those voters. They are already locked in. I think it is going to backfire. Ive been saying this for a while. It was very clear through all of these depositions, most of which i sat in on, that these witnesses, their witnesses. They brought them in because they were the ones that were going to prove their case. Every single one of them, essentially said, no, i have no evidence connecting to abide into anything hunters doing. They have overreached. Here they have clearly overreached. They have not corrected course. Up next, how donald trump is trying to play the victim card as he faces 91 criminal counts against him. Against him. With nurtec odt i can treat and prevent my Migraine Attacks all in one. Dont take if allergic to nurtec. Allergic reactions can occur even days after using. Most common side effects were nausea, indigestion and stomach pain. Talk to your doctor about nurtec today. Before my doctor and i chose breztri for my copd, i had bad days. 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For something that is nothing. They were doing it because it is Election Interference. And then i got indicted a second time, and a third time, and a fourth time a lot of people said, thats why the black people like me. Theyve been hurt so badly and discriminated against. They actually viewed me, i am being discriminated against. Its been pretty amazing. Im being indicted for you, the American People. Im being indicted for you, the black population. The mugshot, we have all seen the mugshot. You know who embraced it more than anybody else . The black population. Its incredible. You see black people Walking Around with my mugshot. They do shirts. They sell them for 19 apiece. Its pretty amazing. Millions of these things have been solved. Yeah, so, yeah. My god. Where do you begin . I dont know. I suppose we could do a poll of black americans and see if they are more likely to support somebody because they stole Nuclear Secrets from the white house. They stole secret war plans against iran. They lied to the fbi about having those Nuclear Secrets, those secret war plans. Lying to the fbi, the Justice Department, about having classified documents hidden in their beach front resort. Maybe black americans relate to that. I dont know. I wouldnt think they. Would do they relate to trump telling his i. T. Director to destroy all of the evidence . That i t director testifying against them, or to maintenance people to flood the room where the i. T. Department is to destroy the evidence. I just dont know. Boy, it does seem like a stretch, doesnt it, rev. To think donald trump is doing all of that, illegally paying off a porn star according to the manhattan d. A. Trying to foment a riot on january the 6th. Im not so sure. Help me understand. Why would black americans relate to donald trump there . I do not understand the connection. Well, first of all, lets be clear. Donald trump is using the stereotype of blacks being criminals. Therefore, we would gravitate towards somebody in a mugshot. He isnt a mugshot for trying to interfere with an election. Blacks were arrested to get the right to vote. That is what the marches were about. It is the epitome of an insult, also, when you think of the fact that it is a black man that is prosecuting him in manhattan. Alvin bragg. A black woman in georgia. A black woman in new york, the state Attorney General, letitia james. He is saying a black people would relate to someone indicted for someone trying to undermine the election. But we would go with him rather than them. The other part that is so amazing is donald trump himself has been part of these types of unfair prosecutions of blacks. It was he that took out ads a Newspaper Calling for the Death Penalty of five young black and brown boys for raping a white woman in central park, who went to jail falsely. It was later proven that they didnt do it because of dna. Donald trump said, no, punish them anyway. All of a sudden, and i have been in this movement for 40 or 50 years. I have never seen him stand up for blacks that were treated wrong by the criminal Justice System. Now he has a semblance of being prosecuted. He is being prosecuted by black prosecutor, a black woman judge in a federal court in washington, d. C. Any shameless black standing there applauding him need to check the facts. Well he is also making racist comments against letitia james. Against fani willis. Against those prosecutors who happened to be people of color. Just because they are black. Alvin bragg. Yeah. Maybe they didnt fit that into his speech. Listen, first it was navalny. Now it is the African American community . These comparisons are sick and grotesque. The Biden Harris Campaign co chair, former congressman, Cedric Richmond responded a statement. Quote. Donald trump claiming black americans will support him because of his criminal charges is insulting, it is moronic, and it is just plain racist. He thinks black voters are so uninformed that we wont see through his shameless pandering. He has another thing coming. John heilemann, and then there is tim scott. I dont know. Very the episodes that will say anything. Black community will respond to this. Remember his comments The First Time around . What do you have to lose . Honestly, i dont think most black voters are paying attention to the race at this point. I dont think they will respond to this in particular in any way. I think if you think about the things people talk about, correctly think about what are the concerns of the Biden Campaign going into a general against donald trump, its not so much these head to head polls, its that they have seen their support among certain poor constituency slip, including nonwhite voters, dramatically. At the core of that is a lot of black voters. The Biden Campaign comes back and says, hey, wait until the race is clear. Donald trump is the nominee. We get to the fall and it is this Binary Choice between the. To the African Community in america is gonna remember donald trump is an existential threat and they will come home to us. We have a lot of work to do what they are going to come home. The kinds of comments, these not specifically about the fact that donald trump will make these comments. He has made these comments for years as rev points out. He will make them into the future because this is who donald trump is. I only see black faces. Look how far of calm. That is the kind of thing that trump will say, has been saying for a long time. He will keep saying. That is why the Biden Campaign is. Right they have something to cling to their when they say, hey, when people start to focus on this race our core constituents will come back because they will remember who donald trump. Is they will be confronted with who he is, day after day. This is a preview of the conflict they are counting on in the fall to bring average American Voters back to joe biden with the type of intensity had in 2016, and in 2020. The trump advisory told me the indictments would make black voters go for trump. That the mugshot would go for trump. Went on to say the new line of Trump Speakers would appeal to black voters. Which, of course, we cannot leave aside how grossly offensive that is. Coming, up our conversation with health and Human Services secretary, Heavier Becerra as he traveled to alabama in the wake of the court ruling on ivf embryos that led to service being halted across the state. Being halted across the state. some people just know that the best rate for you is a rate based on you, with allstate. Because you know that just because it fits in the cupholder doesnt make it togo. And you know how to brake, without breaking everything. 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Trump has already said that he supports a nationwide abortion ban. This is his fault. Ivf alone, you are dealing with the constant stress of the odds, the shots, the appointments, the changes in your body, the hope that your body will perform, the hope that the procedure will perform. The hope that the numbers will land in your direction. The constant waiting and hoping. Im wondering if you can answer this question, it is so hard it is so grueling, as you say. Why do you do it . Because we want a family. We want kids more than anything. That was part of my conversation with amanda zarowski, a texas president currently suing the state after she nearly died when doctors delayed giving her an abortion despite being told her baby would not survive after her water broke. She is now planning to move her frozen embryos out of texas due to fears that providers in the state may stop ivf treatments. This comes after alabamas High Court Ruled that embryos could be considered children under state law. In response, nearly half of the Ivf Providers in alabama have paused providing services. Just think about amanda situation. First, she is denied determination that is threatening her life. The fetus that shes caring will not survive. She has to go through that stress, that agony. She turns to ivf and now this happens. Joining us now Secretary Health and Human Services, have the air but sarah. He is currently in alabama right now to meet with doctors and ivf patients across the state. Thank you, mister secretary, for joining us. What are you hoping to accomplish their . There is a lot of confusion for parents who have embryos right now being frozen. They want to turn to ivf. They dont know if they will be prosecuted or if they will have to do what amanda is doing. Thank you for having me. As your report just pointed out, there is a lot of fear. A lot of confusion. Now you dont need to add the politics that fear, confusion, and perhaps prosecution to the list to someone who just wants to have a family. That is where we are and that is what happens when you connect the dots between the Dobbs Decision and roe versus raid. Many have said this before, this is not just about abortion this is about access to health care. There are millions of families out there who want to start having children. They thought they would be able to use in Vitro Fertilization. We are now beginning to wonder, why am i in the same trap that a woman who was looking for abortion care services, or contraception, is now facing . They are not sure what is going on. They are confused, they are fearful. In some cases they are thinking of moving out of the state. Or, in this, case moving their embryos out of the state. Mister secretary, we are focused on ivf because of the alabama ruling but there are currently three states. Texas, louisiana, and missouri. Who are also looking legislatures are looking at restricting access to the morning after pill and even two into uterine devices, as well. What more is coming down the line . What more should parents and would be parents, women in america, much else do you think could happen . I just as this alabama decision through everyone for a loop, really broadsided so many families using ivf, that is what could happen again. Remember, the rights that we had under roe were stripped by dobbs. Where that take us, it is certainly well beyond abortion. It could easily go beyond ivf. That is not clear. That is why there are a lot of very fearful confuse families right now. Mister secretary, good morning. It is not just alabama. This is not just that one of, as you said. Looking back at the life of Conception Act Cosponsored By A Group of republicans in january 2023, including now speaker mike johnson. Which sets like begins at conception. Which means the embryos life, the embryo is a child. What are your concerns that this legislatively could be passed through on a National Level . Well, my understanding is that a majority of republicans in the House Of Representatives have endorsed that legislation, which means the leadership, the speaker, and more than half of his constituents in the House Of Representatives are for this legislation. Which would certainly put at risk not just those in alabama folks throughout the country if it passes as a federal law. Here we are with the situation where, both for dobbs, those rights to access care whether it was in Vitro Fertilization or abortion care were protected constitutionally by roe v. Wade. That is all gone. Who knows where we go. It is the wild west. We have to do everything we can to protect families. That is why im here in alabama today. Mister secretary, since the decision and alabama some republicans have tried to distance themselves from it. As noted, that could just be politics. This is an election year. We will see what happens where they take power. In the interim, in alabama where this is in effect, are their Executive Orders the white house administrations exploring . What other things can you and your team do to help . And we will talk to families today. Talk to physicians. See if there is something that we can do at the federal level but the reality is until we restore the rights that we had under roe, my three daughters will continue to have fewer rights than my wife had. It is a chilling thought. We go back to those days when it was illegal to do things that are good for your health. Good for your family to be able to plan out in Vitro Fertilization. It is a real fear to believe you may face persecution simply for trying to have a family. We have a lot more to get to this hour. Morning joe weekend continues after a short break. Short brea. Get help reaching your goals with j. P. 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Joining us now with charts on this is former treasury official and morning joe economic analyst, steve rattner. Steve, thanks so much for being with us. You have a lot of people look at this time and in the future, theyre thinking of maybe the rice and possibly, fall, of donald trump, or the rise, fall, and rise of donald trump. It will be the story, the political story for the next ten, 20 years. The impact on the country. Im gonna say, politically, the rise of independents, which were looking at right now, will be far more significant because it does seem we are about to break what jon meacham called that 150year duopoly that has controlled American Politics. Yet, joe. Actually, but two things i think are connected, but well see what everybody else thinks, when they show you some numbers here. So, in terms of that lead in and the whole rise of independents, ill show you what it looks like on a chart. If we go back to 2004, roughly and even defection among republicans, democrats, and independents. And it is simply gone like this, like jaws. Republicans and democrats have ended up in the same place. So, democrats did better for a while. Now, as we said, independents are up to 45 . What does this reflect . I think it reflects a considerable degree of peoples unhappiness with the way our democracy operates. Only 27 of americans believe that our system is working well, or very well. The rest think its not working very well. There are 32 states that permits party registration. A lot actually dont. So, those who live in the states to understand that, thats the way that is. Disproportionately, a large number of independence and states that dont permit party registration. All of these green states, those have increased in independents over that period of time, from 2014 to 2024. A few states were, went down, but basically, independents authorize. You know, i was at a school event last night, steve, and talked to several parents. They were just talking, just in general. Talking about independents, and everybody seemed to come to the same conclusion. I found it fascinating. When they say, wheres the candidates thats economically conservative team that believes the United States should be involved in the world, that believes that women should have control of their own bodies, and they just went down the list and they were trying to make the point, their view, that you are making, that youre about to make right now, i think, and that is that people are becoming more polarized, which is actually driving a lot of americans into looking for a third choice. Thats part of the point, that you have the parties in the hands of a smaller and smaller number of people. Inevitably, it becomes extremist. That democrats, happily, have maintained i think a more moderate stance. But when you see whats happened to the republicans, with trump, you have to look at the fact that many people have left the Republican Party as part of that. But lets take a look here at the trends. Whats also happening is the red states are getting red around the blue states are getting blue were. So, the increase in president ial registrations has moved towards blue states have got some blue or, as i said, red states have gotten brighter. Theres four states, five states, that have gone the other way. Nevada and utah, pennsylvania, new jersey, and rhode island have become more red, and utah and kansas, oddly enough, has become slightly more blue. Basically, the trends is that as Party Registrations move, the red states get red, or the blue states get blue. Or why does this matter . This matters because our elections are being decided in a smaller and smaller number of places. Back here in 2000, 47 of our, the elections by county, were looking at this by county, were decided by 20 Percentage Points or less. Today, only 22 of our elections are being decided by 20 points or less. That means all the rest is 80 , almost of our elections, are being decided by more than 20 Percentage Points in a given county, which means again, a smaller and smaller number of voters are essentially deciding elections, because we have so many uncompetitive races. Up next, Pulitzer Prize winning author steve cole joins us with new reporting on the iraq war. Rting on the iraq war. Were building a better Postal Service. All parts working in sync to move your business forward. With a streamlined shipping network. And new, highspeed processing and delivery centers. For more value. More reliability. And more ontime deliveries. The United States Postal Service is built for how you business. And how you business is with simple, affordable and reliable shipping. Usps ground advantage. 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Sure is a lot safer than becoming a stuntman for money. Get a free line of unlimited intro for a year when you buy one unlimited line. Visit xfinitymobile. Com today to learn more. At this hour, American Coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm iraq, to free its people, and to defend the world from grave danger. On my orders, Coalition Forces have begun striking selected targets of military importance to undermine Saddam Husseins ability to wager war. These are opening stages of what will be a broad and concerted campaign. Nearly 21 years after then president george w. Bush announced the start of the war in iraq, we are still learning more about the miscalculations on both sides that left hundreds of thousands dead. Joining us now, twotime Pulitzer Prizewinning author and dean emeritus of the columbia journalism school, steve coll. His new book is titled the achilles trap, Saddam Hussein, the cia, and the origins of americas invasion of iraq. Steve, congratulations on the book out today. We were just discussing. Its somewhat k clouded by the case of a trump years, just a consequence what was the United States decided to going to be. Rocking we certainly know the process pretends of the weapons of mass destruction, but you also get it to mistakes made by Saddam Hussein to lead that impression and that were. Exactly. I think our collective reckoning with the invasion has mostly until now focused on our own systems fillers. The false intelligence. The selling of the war and the rest of it. But theres another way to the question. Why dances on hussein create the impression that he had weapons he didnt have . And this ultimately cost him his regime and his life. So, this is a question that is now answerable, because he tape recorded his leadership conversations or more meticulously than richard nixon, and he left behind this massive record of his thinking and his discussions at key points of his conflict. So, the purpose of this investigation was to go back and see the origins of the war from his perspective, and to enlarge her own understanding of why this big trauma in American Life occurred. Of course, weve all sort of, many of us heard the story that there had been an assassination plot saddam ordered on george h. W. Bush, the aftermath of that force the record. Your book find that was not the case. I tried to be definitive about it, but i spent a lot of time going through the evidence, and just the short version is that george h. W. Bush, after he was president , visited kuwait. The country he had liberated for a war, and was celebrated. He had his family with him and other parts of the bush family with him. They left without incident. A week later, and assassination plot was announced. Bill clinton took it very seriously, struck back that in retaliation. Well, now we have all these records from saddam sidner. The questions was, where was this plot . Theres no evidence of it at all in these records. And the way, i will spare you the details. Its a fascinating story, because the revenge narrative within the bush family has been a common feature of our discourse about the war. And understanding of the order to invade in 2003. Just one of the many snaps caddie in this new book. I know you have the next question, christine. Yes. Its super fascinating, steve. Its really interesting what it tells us about what saddam was thinking in that period. This idea that he had the cia that americas Intelligence Services was so powerful that surely, they knew he had already disposed of his weapons of mass destruction, and he couldnt believe they didnt. I just thought that was such an interesting insight. Yeah. The idea that the cia might be capable of a giant analytical mistake of the one we actually made, about whether or not he had wta, it just wasnt part of his worldview like most of the people out there. He saw the cia as omniscient, and so, when he calculated that they already knew he didnt have the weapons, he just interpreted the accusations as evidence this was all just a game. It was a pretends to overthrow him. His reaction was, well, im not gonna play their game. He refused to cooperate. Even, in retrospect, in his own interest by the if he had cooperated. Thats all the time we have for today. Well be back tomorrow, at six a. M. Eastern for more morning joe weekend. For now, keep it tuned right here for msnbcs the weekend. Good morning, it is saturday, march 2nd, im alicia menendez, here in new york. Im with Symone Sanders townsend and in washington, d. C. Today, legal calendar chaos as the Supreme Court strikes out the trumps immunity case, jack smh