Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240704

If he really going to run for Supreme Court that theyre going to hear your case. Reelection . In two years . He doesnt have another they have the Supreme Court internal senate race to deal with. But we will see. Identified for the lawyers on both sides the question, and the only question, they want to hear addressed. And i want to give that question to the audience now. I wouldnt put any money on the question is whether, and if Mitch Mcconnells decency and so to what extent, does a integrity. Do you have any optimism, former president enjoy president ial immunity from im not asking who, but in terms of the leadership that criminal prosecution for comes next . Of course not. Conduct alleged to involve what i would say this. Official acts during his tenure i would say the only optimism, the only sign of optimism is in office . How would you address that that i think its likely that whoever comes next will be less question . Well, if im jack smith, the competent. Because Mitch Mcconnell is very prosecutor here, i would say good at obstruction in the same way we saw with Kevin Mccarthy. Absolutely not, or maybe heck Kevin Mccarthy maybe wasnt graded his job, he was better no. And just point to the proud at his job than mike johnson. Tradition of our constitution, which is at its essence, and that redounded to the republicans benefit. Lawrence, there is one central as house went from Kevin Mccarthy to make johnson, so idea, which is no person is the senate goes for mitch Above The Law. Mcconnell to someone named and what donald trump has done john. Someone named john. Michelle goldberg, thank you throughout his presidency, for helping me ride the chariot before and after, is always into darkness tonight. I appreciate your time, my basically his arguments amount friend. Thats our show for tonight. Now its time for the last world with don lawrence to, im Above The Law. Odonnell. Good evening on this big so when he was president and there was the mueller report, newsnight. Good evening, alex. Which outlined ten crimes that and of course we have our Supreme Court experts with us, he had committed, he said you neal katyal and Laurence Tribe. Cant indict me because im a theyve got a lot to say. Sitting president. He then gets voted out of and im gonna get straight to it. Do it. Office, and then he commits thank you, alex. Crimes on january 6th to try to thank you. Lost in the fog of todays stay in office, and he says you Supreme Court news is the hard fact that donald trump is still cant prosecute me because im still a sitting president. Scheduled to go to trial In Manhattan On March 25th to Face Criminal Charges in his first Criminal Trial, charges that he tried to effect the results of the 2016 president ial election by making Hush Money Payments so then, Congress Goes and tries to impeach him for this. To porn star Stormy Daniels, and his lawyers go to the who will likely become one of senate and say, oh no, you cant impeach him, you can only prosecute him after he leaves the star witnesses against donald trump in that trial, a office. So then, jack smith does exactly that. Witness who even Donald Trumps they prosecute him after he followers will have no problem leaves office. And he says, oh no, you cant prosecute me, because i was impeached before and i wasnt convicted, so now i can be understanding when she describes donald trump did with her alone in a hotel room while prosecuted. Its all just a big shell game. His wife was pregnant and when she describes how donald trump it always adds up to the same delivered his hush money thing, donald trump evades the payments to her. Law. And unfortunately today, lawrence, the Supreme Court put its thumb on the side of saying donald trump, we are going to help you evade the law. And nothing that the Supreme Court did today is helping donald trump get out of the crushing weight of half a theres lots of caveats we can billion dollars of civil talk about there in a moment, judgments he is now facing in but that is, i think, the new york. Today, donald trump said he is not rich enough to pay those upshot of where we are today. Judgments, after previously testifying under oath that he and do you mean evade the is rich enough to pay those law simply by the delay in the trial . Or are you anticipating, based judgments. We will get to those struggles criminal defendant and civil on what youre seeing in this defendant donald trump is order today, that this court, five justices on this court facing in new york later this could actually find some Immunity Provisions to apply to hour. Today, at least four members of the United States Supreme Court agreed to hear Donald Trumps appeal arguing this case . That president ial immunity i cannot imagine five justices, lawrence, on the protects him from criminal prosecution for the charges filed by jack smith against Supreme Court saying donald trump has anything like a donald trump for crimes leading serious legal claim here. It is so antithetical to up to and on january 6th. It takes only four members of everything we as lawyers, as citizens, think about our the court to agree to hear a case, and of course it takes a government. And you know, the clip you just majority of five members of the showed before illustrates the court to issue an opinion in consequences. The case. The Supreme Court threw out a president can go and assassinate his political rival half of Donald Trumps appeal and say its an official act and you cant prosecute him . Today and granted a hearing on the other half of the appeal. Thats looney tunes, to put it the part of the appeal the Supreme Court threw out today was Donald Trumps claim of mildly. So no, i dont think that is Double Jeopardy on the basis that he is now being prosecuted the worry. The worry is the Supreme Court for some of the same crimes he agreed to hear this case and set a fairly slow schedule of was charged with in his second Impeachment Trial in the united hearing it on april 22nd. States senate, in which a majority of senators voted to you know trump wanted a longer schedule, but still, thats a find him guilty, but not the two thirds necessary to convict long time. And for reasons that we can talk about, when you start him. The Supreme Court gave trumps doing the math, there is a real lawyers three weeks to submit risk that donald trump could their brief and gave jack smith then three weeks to reply to evade justice and evade this the trump brief, then the trump prosecution. It seems, according to the lawyers will get a final week question that the Supreme Court for a final written reply, and a week after that the supreme is asking, that this could be a narrower argument in front of court will hear the arguments the Supreme Court. In the case on april 22nd. There might apparently there will be nothing about double the Supreme Court is not being jeopardy. Because those are the two asked to provide total and questions the Trump Lawyers absolute immunity for any and brought to the Supreme Court, all possible criminal conduct the Double Jeopardy and this by a president. The trump petition to the immunity for official acts, or as the Trump Lawyers put it, Supreme Court only asks for acts that are at the outer immunity for a president s perimeter of official duties. It seems that discussion about official acts or, quote, those performed within the outer perimeter of his official the perimeter and what is an responsibility. The argument trumps lawyers official act will be the focus of this argument. Thats exactly right, donald make before the Supreme Court trumps lawyers have made could be a rerun of some of what we heard in the Appeals Court. Could a president order s. E. A. L. Team six to assassinate a political rival . Another argument about Double Jeopardy, which was even more bogus then their absolute thats an official act, an immunity one. And that is releasing order to s something. He would have to fore the youve got to try to come up with an argument thats weaker then the absolute immunity one. But Donald Trumps lawyers managed to find it, and the Supreme Court did not bother prosecution. But if you arent, there wanting to hear that piece of would be no colonel it, youre absolutely right. So it does turn on this prosecution, no criminal liability for that . Absolute immunity thing. And the way that the court has written it it says alleged the chief justices opinion official acts. And by the alleged official acts, they dont mean what the prosecutor is alleging, they mean what donald trump, the former president , is alleging. And the idea that someone can just stand up and say, well, because i was a former president , im alleging these are official acts, like try to launch a coup on january 6th, thats an official act, and now you have to evaluate my Immunity Claim. That cant possibly, lawrence, be what the law is. So im not worried about the Supreme Court ultimately doing the right thing when they hear this case. Im worried about how long it is going to take for the Supreme Court to do the right thing and whether the American Public is going to be deprived in the interim of actually donald trump ever reaching justice. And theres one other point i would make about this, which has to do with prosecutorial norms. Because there is an informational asymmetry here. During this whole delay period, while trump, while the Supreme Court hears trumps case, trump can go out to the cameras and say the case is bogus and attack jack smith and all sorts of stuff. Federal prosecutors dont act that way. They only get to speak through their filings and their presentation of evidence. So now with these months and months of delay, thats great for trump. He is going to get to claim hes being persecuted without the public ever having the opportunity to actually hear the very Persuasive Evidence against him, or a jury to hear those things. Neal, im wondering why it took the time it took for the Supreme Court to issue this one sentence question, which is what the argument is going to be about. So what i am wondering about is, as you know the court and as you see what they issued today, is it possible that they were struggling to get to four, that there were three and they were working on getting a fourth and it took them a while to get to a fourth . Or is it possible that there may be well more than four, including people who have different incentives for this, including possible, you know, justices appointed by democratic president s who think, you know, something this big the Supreme Court should have the last word on it. And then, how long would it take a group of Supreme Court justices to negotiate the exact wording of that question they issued to the lawyers today . Lawrence, im totally baffled by why it took this long. The Supreme Court can act more quickly. It did in the colorado case. It can rewrite the question, presented very fast. And i have a lot of institutional respect for the Supreme Court. I was there this morning arguing a different case with my team. But you know, this is a little bit troubling. The best, i think, point i can come up with is donald trump did something last week which might have put some fuel on the fire of the Supreme Court hearing this case, which is he directed his lawyers in the mar alago stolen documents case to file another bogus absolute Immunity Claim there. And what that might have done is say to the Supreme Court, look, this decision that we are being asked to review is from washington, d. C. And yes, its our nations second highest court, but it only governs washington, d. C. Florida and the court of appeals there might come to a different result, and we could have some conflict on this big legal issue. And so therefore, we, the Supreme Court, should hear this issue to set a rule for the entire nation. Thats the best i can come up with for why the timing is what it is. But i am very concerned that the court has set an april 22nd hearing date here, they couldve moved more quickly. Bush versus gore, that whole case went to the Supreme Court on two different times, all within a 36day period, briefing, decisions, everything. Neal, i want to go back to that point, because i was thinking about that today. You and others raised it, when donald trump raise that Immunity Defense in florida, instantly lawyers started saying uhoh, this means the Supreme Court is probably going to have to take it. Because the District Court of appeals in washington d. C. Is not going to be a controlling opinion for the 11th circuit down there, where that case is. So theres a certain logic. My question about that is is that could be an issue that Ketanji Brown jackson wants to handle. Thats one of the areas where it seems to me there is a wide range of members of the court who might say, you know, if hes raising this immunity in two different jurisdictions, we just have to take it. Yeah, i agree with that. I guess the thing i would say to the other side though is why set it for on april 22nd argument . Why take so long . And neal, is that completely up to the chief justice, the scheduling . Its generally as a matter of practice is, but i dont think you do something without the support of his colleagues. I think maybe the best thing we can hope for is that the chief and other justices feel like, look, there is still a lot of room in the joints, that we can decide this case quickly, and that theres two other actors here who other actors here who could truncate their calendars. Judge chutkan has said, look, im going to give trump 88 days from the time the immunity cases decided to the actual start of trial. But she said that well before the Supreme Court agreed to hear the case. And now trump has got many more months to prepare for trial. And the other is jack smith said this trial could take 2 to 3 months, but he has lots of options available to truncate the trial and make it go more quickly. So its still very possible that the court could hear this case and still have donald trump tried before the election. But the math is a bit more difficult now. Neal katyal, i cannot thank you enough for extending your workday all the way past ten pm to join us on this important night. Thank you. Thanks, neal. And coming up, Harvard Constitutional Law Professor Laurence Tribe will join our discussion next. Discussion next. And blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. People 50 and older with at least 1 Heart Disease risk factor have higher risks. Dont take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. Tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. Put uc in check and keep it there with rinvoq. 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With comcast business, reliability isnt just possible. Its happening. Get started for 49 a month. Plus, ask how to get up to a 800 prepaid card with a qualifying internet package. Dont wait, call and switch today and joining our discussion now is professor Laurence Tribe, who has taught Constitutional Law at Harvard Law School for five decades. Professor tribe, so glad to have you here tonight on this important night. What is your reaction to the Supreme Court deciding to hear this case . Well, i was quite convinced, given how long they were taking, that they were likely to decide to hear it. What i didnt know and what is very disappointing is that they would formulate the question presented at a level of enormous abstraction so that the delay that weve already seen may just be the beginning. But the question presented is now whether and to what extent does a president have immunity after he leaves office, from criminal prosecution, for conduct alleged to involve official acts during his tenure . Well, of course donald trump alleges that everything was an official act. Jack smith is at the opposite end. Instead of that, if they really had any interest in expedition, any interest in satisfying the public need to get this trial going and to have a verdict one way or another before the election, they wouldve asked a narrower question. They would have simply asked whether a president charged with criminally seeking to remain in office beyond the end of his term has absolute immunity from prosecution for crimes committed in that vein. That would have been the right question to ask. And it could only have had one answer. This question is so sweeping that there are a lot of ways of answering. Yes, the president might have some degree of immunity force some official acts. But that is not the real issue. John roberts long ago said that if a case doesnt require you to address a particular question, then as a federal judicial official, you shouldnt answer that question, you shouldnt reach out. By reaching out in this way, the court has guaranteed not only that there would be this bizarre delay, they couldve taken this issue before them back in last december. Not only that there be that delay, but now the delay until late april before hearing the case. There is no reason to have that several month delay. In the bush v. Gore case, everything moved ten times as fast. This is a much simpler matter. It couldve been resolved quite quickly. And the really weird thing is that essentially everyone knows where the story has to end. It cannot be the case that when a president is in office and tries to remain in office after losing an election and commits the crimes that are involved in that that he is forever immune from prosecution. Yet that is what would have to happen to give this president immunity. So since we know that that is where the story has to end, to drag it out this way and have a virtual guarantee that the court wont decide anything until late june, it might decide this broad legal question and send the case back to the d. C. Circuit, even if it doesnt, no trial is likely to begin before october. In any event, no verdict of either kind, acquit or convict, is likely to happen before the election. And as a result, the people of the United States are confronted with basically a Supreme Court that is suppressing evidence, suppressing evidence that they need in order to decide intelligently whether the person they are voting for is guilty of the extreme felony of trying to steal an election and remain in office. Thats an unconscionable way to proceed. And yet, that is what the Supreme Court has arranged by the way it has organized its case. So your focusing on the exact words of the question, the Supreme Court gives the lawyers the question they want them to address. Right. You are focusing on the part where it says alleged to involve prosecution for conduct, alleged to involve official acts during his tenure in office. That seems, the way you are reading it, to open the Supreme Court to arguments about each particular bit of evidence in the case. Was it an official act when President Donald Trump was asking Vice President mike pence to change the electoral vote count . Was it an official act when he was calling the secretary of state of georgia . Is that where the Supreme Court could end up here, evaluating each action described in the indictment . Or laying out a blueprint and sending the case back to the court of appeals to evaluate the allegations. So that this is a formula for indefinite delay. Im focusing also on the fact that the court asks whether and if so to what extent is their immunity. The question of whether the immunity is absolute or reaches only to a certain extent is a complicated question, the only complicated question in this case. Its the only one the d. C. Circuit punted on. And it may be the one the u. S. Supreme court focuses on, namely what is the contour of the president s official duties . What kinds of official duties are a mean from criminal prosecution . Its an open season for legal scholars, legal philosophers, not the kind of thing that a court that is supposed to be deciding case before it ought to decide. This is a way of making it a much more complicated case, where the bottom line at the very end of all this back and forth is fairly clear, quite evident. The president cant have the absolute immunity to steal an election by obstructing the proceedings of congress, up to and including fomenting violence. That cant be immune from prosecution. Yet that is exactly what jack smith says he has the power to prosecute. So there is plenty of fault to go around here. Merrick garland waited too long before appointing a Special Counsel. The Special Counsel proceeded with all deliberate speed. But even he couldve gone a bit faster. This indictment couldve been brought somewhat earlier. The case couldve been narrowed, perhaps it will be after the Supreme Court has it say. But if donald trump is reelected, the case goes away, so that even if we all agree that president s cannot be kings, they cant be Above The Law after they leave, theyre just citizens. Even if we all agree with that, in every practical sense, this president will have ended up being Above The Law, because he will have managed to use the procedural gimmicks and gears of the legal system to avoid being held accountable before he could again assume office and make the whole trial go away. Its not the way a country that is concerned to preserve the rule of law and constitutional democracy would proceed. And i think the court bears some real responsibility for proceeding the way it has. The Trump Lawyers made two arguments to get to the Supreme Court. One was the Double Jeopardy argument that you cant prosecute him now because he was impeached and tried in the senate for the same charges. The court apparently has just thrown that out. They dont want that addressed at all. So that theyve seemed to have already dismissed. But the other part of it, the way the Trump Lawyers phrased it was, are these charges, or what the things hes accused of, do they fall within his official duties, or are they called within the perimeter, within the outer perimeter of the official acts of our president . And it seems to me that trying to define where the outer perimeter is, what that means in a case like this, would be not easy. Not easy at all, and not necessary to resolve the actual case before the court. Whatever the outer perimeter is, certainly the attempt to get the Vice President to essentially name him the next president by tossing the next election into the house, where we know the majority of the delegations were controlled by the republicans, try to get the Vice President to do that and then when he refused to do it, fomenting a violent mob to cause delay, those things cannot be immune from prosecution, or else we have a formula for any sitting president to essentially stay in office permanently, like by killing his opponent or by killing senators in an Impeachment Trial. The range of possibilities is mindboggling. And theres no reason for the court to have opened up that pandoras box, except a desire to delay on behalf of donald trump. And that is obviously not a legitimate reason to proceed the way the court did. Harvard Constitutional Law professor Laurence Tribe, thank you very much for joining us on this important night. Thank you, lawrence. Thank you. And coming up, why hasnt Clarence Thomas announced his recusal from this case . Clarence thomass wife was a witness to some of the things donald trump did that are described in jack smiths indictment of donald trump. Congressman dan goldman has called on Justice Thomas to recuse himself. Congressman goldman joins us next. Us next. P. This dove winds you down. And this dove keeps you going. So whatever care you care about, theres a dove for every body. One breath. Can delight them all. Protect yourself against rsv. With pfizers abrysvo a vaccine to prevent lower Respiratory Disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. Its not for everyone and may not protect all who receive it. Dont get abrysvo if youve had an allergic. Reaction to its ingredients. A weakened Immune System may decrease your response. Most common side effects are tiredness, headache, injectionsite pain and muscle pain. Ask about pfizers abrysvo®. Because every breath matters. marci so, how long have you lived here . Ask a opponent rs abrysvo®. Over forty years. marci and how are the restaurants around here . Are they good, bad, meh . Whats the average Household Income . Is there a mall . I dont know. A hair salon . Where do you get your hair done . opponent you gonna move, or what . marci oh, im sorry. Its a lovely neighborhood. luke marci, weve gotta go. marci im coming luke weve got Seventeen Thousand more parks to visit. marci you wanna give me a hand . luke we bring you the best neighborhood info. vo ding dong homesdotcom. In 1974, when Richard Nixons presidency hung in the balance, United States a priem court decided that Richard Nixon must turn over tape recordings of his conversations in the oval office to criminal investigators. Richard nixon knew those taber courtings contain evidence indeed proof Beyond A Reasonable Doubt of crimes committed by Richard Nixon. Richard nixon also knew that one four of the nine justices on the Supreme Court who are deciding his fate were appointed by Richard Nixon. One of those justices, william rehnquist, recused from the nixon case because he had served in the Nixon Administration with some of the officials who were complicit in nixons crimes. The Supreme Court decision in that case was 8 to 0, ordering Richard Nixon to turn over his tapes. Justice Clarence Thomas lives with awoman who was complicit in the crimes, white house Chief Of Staff mark meadows is now accused of and the crimes donald trump is now accused of. Justice thomass wife urged them on in written Text Messages, urged them on in committing those crimes that they are now accused of and doing anything they possibly could illegally, if necessary, to overthrow the results of the president ial election. Will Clarence Thomas follow william rehnquists example and recuse from this case . Joining our discussion now is democratic congressman Daniel Goldman of new york. Congressman goldman, i know you have in effect demanded Clarence Thomass recusal, but he doesnt seem to follow any the precedents on this issue that weve seen from other justices. No, and i think we have our answer. If he were to recuse, we would have seen it in todays order. And hes not. And it is absolutely baffling, lawrence, not just because of the president of chief Justice Rehnquist, or thenJustice Rehnquist, as you pointed out, but the fact that his wife was involved in the conduct that underlies the criminal charges justice. And under the new guise of impeachment that this House Republican majority has created, with the impeachment of secretary mayorkas, if the democrats win the house next year, i think we are going to have to think about what our actions are in terms of raining in this rogue Supreme Court, bringing judicial reform and ethics back to the court so its credibility is restored, and even up to and including the possible impeachment of Clarence Thomas, because he continues to flout basic common sense Rules Of Ethics for any judge, much less a Supreme Court justice. Clarence thomass wife was with donald trump, was in his presence, when he committed some of the acts that are considered part of the criminal conspiracy in the case that the Supreme Court is going to consider. She was there when donald trump was giving his speech to his followers, telling them to go to the capitol and fight like hell. She was there clapping for that, clapping for that, just like all the trump followers were. She, like donald trump, did not go to the capitol, that she was there when he urged them on. And here is Clarence Thomas considering a case that includes that evidence about his wife. As well as Text Messages where shes urging mark meadows , the president s Chief Of Staff, to do whatever he possibly can to keep donald trump in office, which is exactly what he is charged with criminally doing, by using false and fraudulent means in order to maintain his position as the president of the United States and interfere with an election. It is, one might i dont know the evidence here, lawrence, but this would be somebody that as a former prosecutor i would consider referring to as an Unindicted Coconspirator, which means there is some complicity, there are some actions that link such a person to the crime that is being charged. And the notion that Clarence Thomas would rule on a case where his wife may be an Unindicted Coconspirator is perhaps the greatest ethical lapse that weve seen. And lapse is not even the right word, it is a true flouting of the code of ethics, Rules Of Ethics, of basic common sense ethical guidelines. And the Supreme Court has demonstrated that it cannot police itself. Congress must enact, and republicans must get on board with an acting some sort of judicial reform so there is a code of ethical conduct that applies to Supreme Court justices, as it does to all other federal judges. But this is a true crisis of credibility on the Supreme Court right now. And it is just stunning to compare it to the rehnquist standard. It was not anyone in rehnquists family. It was not rehnquists wife. Thats not why he was recusing. He was recusing because he had once worked for attorney general john mitchell, who looked like he was in the line of culpability in the nixon conspiracy, and indeed was. John mitchell, first attorney general in history to be convicted of a crime, sentenced to prison. And Justice Rehnquist wanted to be nowhere close to that. And Clarence Thomas is so much closer, so much closer to what this case is about. Hes so much closer, and he has now demonstrated a pattern of ethical, Financial Disclosure issues and problems and lapses that have been documented in quite great detail by excellent Investigative Reporting over the past couple of years. Where he has clearly using his position for his own financial benefit, and now he is using his position to potentially protect his wife from criminal conduct. It is shocking when you actually just say the words that a Supreme Court justice has not recused himself from a case in which his wife may be an Unindicted Coconspirator. I am not a constitutional or Supreme Court historian, but i certainly do not know of a situation like this. Congressman Daniel Goldman, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight. Thank you. Thank you. Coming up, despite todays action at the Supreme Court, criminal defendant donald trump is going to trial in his first Criminal Trial, which will be in manhattan, just three weeks from now. Nothing the Supreme Court did today changes that. And donald trump is now struggling under the weight of a half billion dollars in civil judgments against him in new york, which he told a court today he cannot afford to pay. The Appeals Court refused to give donald trump more time to find the money. Thats next. Money. Thats next. Voices of people with cidp but living with cidp doesnt have to. When you sign up at shiningthroughcidp. Com, youll find inspiration in real patient stories, helpful tips, reliable information, and more. Cidp can be tough. But finding hope just got a little easier. Sign up at shiningthroughcidp. Com. All be heard. Be hopeful. Be you. Febreze hi. I keep my home fresh with febreze fade defy plug. And i use this. Febreze has a microchip to digitally control how much scent is released so it doesnt fade. Ooh. Does mine have a microchip . Oh. Febreze smells firstday fresh for 50 days. That is a shockingly long time. Febreze also has a refill reminder light. It even reminds you to refill it . So i never miss a day of freshness. Your home is so fresh upgrade to febreze plug. Donald trumps first Criminal Trial is now less than a month away in manhattan where donald trump will face charges of tampering with the 2016 president ial election by hiding from voters the truth about his relationship with porn star Stormy Daniels while he was campaigning for president by delivering Hush Money Payments to her. District attorney alvin bragg charged donald trump with Business Fraud for trying to cover up the Hush Money Payments that he gave to porn star Stormy Daniels to hide their relationship so voters would not know about their relationship in 2016. That case is still going to trial, and there is nothing todays decision about the Supreme Court can do about that. Also in new york today, donald trump said under oath that he does not have enough money to cover the civil judgments against him after saying under oath earlier that he does have enough money. Today in new york Appeals Court refused to delay Donald Trumps obligation to pay that judgment or put up the money to the court for that judgment so that he can then appeal that civil fraud judgment against him in new york which is as of tonight 464 million. Joyce vance, former prosecutor and university of alabama law school. Also Bloomberg Opinion and other of trump nation. They are both msnbc analysts. Joyce, i want to begin with the manhattan Criminal Trial which remains very much on track and is now without a doubt the very first criminal case that will be going to trial against donald trump. In a way its extension of what we have already seen in the civil fraud trial, but this is a criminal Business Fraud that he is charged with to cover up payments to Stormy Daniels. You know, it is a criminal Business Fraud, but ive yet viewed it more akin to Election Interference case. This is Donald Trumps origin story. This is the first election for president , and what is happening, the access Hollywood Tape that is released, hes concerned about how women voters are viewing him, and so he tries to keep evidence of his payments he tries to keep evidence of his relationship with Stormy Daniels out of the hands of voters as they are preparing to go to the polls. He does that in essence by cooking books that his business, but this is a lot more than a Business Fraud case. This is really about Election Interference. And tim obrien, i dont see any way donald trump can take in the Witness Stand in a case like this where he would be open to questions under oath in a criminal proceeding about how he handles his business records. No i mean he is an attorney s Worst Nightmare on the Witness Stand, he lies, he tries to joust with he does not discipline. I cant imagine they would want to have him on the stand where he would just sit there like yosemite sam shooting his feet. And i wouldnt expect to see that at all have been. So, joyce, donald trump under oath in a pretrial deposition said he has at least 400 million in cash, now when he needs that, in order to proceed with an appeal he needs to post the amount of money that is involved in the case in the judgment of the case in order to appeal, suddenly saying gee, i cant afford it. I just dont have that much money. What happens next . Yes, so, look in the whole point here is donald trump can appeal this judgment. He has a right to do that. The question is what happens while he is taking the appeal. Can the new York Attorney general go ahead and try to collect her 464 million in judgment against him, and the answer there is that if he does not post a bond or pay the full amount into the court fund, then she can begin to collect the she has already indicated she has her eye on a couple of Trump Properties in new york. So presumably he is out leading the bush and talking to Lenders Of Last Resort trying to get a bond in place by the march 25 deadline, but if he cant come up with, it if he really is in his own words from this motion today, if he really is struggling financially, then we could have the specter of him facing a Criminal Trial in manhattan, while tish james begins to execute and try to collect her judgment against him at the same time. And, tim, might that be double trumps play in the, end, just he cant put up the bond, there let tish james try to take one of these buildings and auction it off knowing that can be a long process he could have various ways to fight legally along the way . Well perhaps, but that is a crazy gambit, because he will control of those properties, one of the things we are seeing in this case is as always with donald, trump there is now a public referendum on his wealth. He spent you know, 55, more soof his 78 years lying about how much money he has, and not when push comes to show, a man whose routinely said he is multi billionaire is having Trouble Scratching up several hundred Million Dollars to make a court judgment. As one new yorker once said of trump, i wouldnt believe anything coming out of his mouth, even if his tongue was notarized. So all of his proclamations that he had several hundred Million Dollars in cash, they dont appear to be true. That means he then has to go to hard property and try to sell it, and that is complex. For example his most valuable building in new york, and the one in san francisco, hes the minority partner in those. The major Real Estate Firm owns most of those properties. Spell out his night without his partner allowing him to, and everybody in new york realest eight or anyone who has a property now knows he is going to be selling under duress if he has to. He is not going to get a good price for some of these properties. Hes arrived in this place because he and his lawyers decided fairly early on to try to beat up the judge in this case, and the judge came down with a very hard penalty. And of course, joyce vance, the mayor Attorney Generals Office has specialist in the office who know how to do exactly this, how to pursue assets like this, and sees them from defendants like donald trump. She does, and i would be stunned if she hasnt been making book on him from day one trying to figure out precisely how she would collect this judgment. It is great to get a judgment, but when it is really meaningful is when you are able to return the money that is being discouraged from a fraudulent business like this to taxpayers. She has made it clear, even with her tweets where she has been totaling up the daily additional increments of interest, she is focused on the collection phase of this litigation. Tim, quickly, before you go, one of those tweets do to trump issues in a tweet, and it is just a, number it is just how much money he owes today, this is how much interest went up today. I imagine it feels like a hot needle being in children his brain every time he hears the number or someone tells him about it, because it is a reminder that a man who had this myth spun about evading the law now has been pulled in tightly to its grasp, and there is a big dollar sign attached to that. She is making hay off that every time. Joyce vance, tim obrien, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thank you. Thanks lawrence. We will be right back. We w and helped Leave Bathroom urgency behind. Check. When uc tried to slow me down. I got lasting, steroidfree remission with rinvoq. Check. And when uc caused Damage Rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. Check. Rapid symptom relief. Lasting steroidfree remission. And the chance to visibly repair the colon lining. Check, check, and check. Rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. 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