will be the kiss of death for any of trump's challengers. while another says he is still willing and ready to serve the president. and this truth matters especially when it comes to the intimates of social media giants. an expert on fighting disinformation joins us as the 11th hour gets underway on this monday night. >> good evening once again. i'm stephanie ruhle at msnbc headquarters in new york city and we have got some news tonight. special counsel jack smith makes an aggressive move and goes on offense about donald trump's efforts to delay his election interference trial. smith today asked the supreme court to rule on the former presidents argument that he is immune from prosecution. just hours after that the high court weighed in on the request. the justices want trump to respond by december 20th and have agreed to put their consideration on whether to hear the case on a fast track. jack smith also revealed today that he intends to call an expert witness who analyzed data from phones trump and others used on or around january 6th. that could be key to filling in details about trump's actions around the time of the capitol riot. meanwhile, rudy giuliani trump's one-time lawyer now codefendant in the georgia election case was in court in d. c. for day one of his defamation trial. you may remember giuliani's baseless claims that former georgia election workers ruby freeman and her daughter shaye moss committed fraud in the 2020 election. >> earlier in the day, ruby freeman and shaye freeman moss and one other gentlemen quite obviously surreptitiously passing around usb ports as if they are vials of heroin or cocaine. it's obvious to anyone who is a criminal investigator or prosecutor they are investigating and surreptitious illegal activity. >> incorrect. during the january 6th hearings, they told the committee but they were just exchanging a ginger mint. they also testified about how they were harassed and friends in the wake of giuliani and trump's lies and's here's what giuliani said late today, again repeating those lies. >> whatever happened to them, it's unfortunate if other people overreacted, but everything i said about them is true. >> do you regret what you did? >> of course i don't regret it i told the truth! >> and of course what giuliani said right there was not the truth. the judges already found giuliani liable and a jury of eight will determine what he must pay. ruby freeman and shaye moss are seeking damages from 50 15 and a half million to $43 million. with that, let's help get smarter with the help of our leadoff panel. and it's a great one hugo lowell is here, political relations of esther for the guardian dave aronberg and madeira friend neal katyal the former acting solicitor general during the obama administration. he's argued dozens, i think fifth in total of the u.s. supreme court so he certainly knows what he is talking about. and i am going to start with you. neil, i was listening to andrew weissmann and just the last hour and gave what i thought was a very interesting and surprising opinion about jack smith's opinion today. watch this. >> this is sort of a win win no matter what the supreme court does in terms of -- >> wow! a win win. how big a deal to think this is by jack smith? >> i think it is a win-win. so look, there is a procedure in the supreme court rules and i've used it myself which allows you to bypass the court of appeals and just go straight to the supreme court if a case is of sufficient gravity and importance. and that's what happened stephanie in the president nixon investigation in 1974. the prosecutor wanted to subpoena nixon and the tapes and went on a fast track to the supreme court, by past the court of appeals. so that's what jack smith has asked the supreme court to do again today. essentially he is like pulling in -- criminal defendant trump's favorite move is to use higher courts to delay his trial proceedings and what jack smith did today's use the high court to achieve the opposite goal, to try and speed up the process as opposed to slow it down, and it sure looks that jackson eighth is beating trump at his own game. >> dave what do you think, big win or big? risk >> big win, i don't think it was much of a risk because this case was always going to the supreme court. >> good points so we just cut out the middleman. >> kind of the middleman. columbia police corps in d. c. took to rule on the gag order. that should've been a really easy one. should it took them weeks, they're much a slow poke sorry judges. he wanted to go straight to the supreme court and, to they seem willing to accept the argument, as neil said in 1974 there is president ask richard nixon. when you can't really ask him now. >> you can look in the richard nixon history books. hugo, donald trump responded today by saying something either baseless or confusing possibly both. he brought up a case from jack smith's cast or the supreme court did rule against him. can you tell us what he's talking about? >> this is the macdonnell case, the bribery investigation and criminal case and fall out. that wasn't as quite as laughable as he trump thought it would be. jack smith didn't argue that case before the supreme court, he's trying to draw a fake parallel from jack smith's ruling to that case. jack smith was one of the prosecutors in this case but this is something the trump has been harping on for a long time. i think when it actually shows is the trouble that the trump legal team knows it has with the fact that we are going to the supreme court because they have to effectively make the argument to the supreme court well actually should wait for the appeals court to see if you take it up or not. i think that's a very narrow line for them to go down. >> i kneel i think it's fair to say that this supreme court has become politicized in the eyes of many americans. and obviously, donald trump believes are least he is saying all these charges against him are just political persecution. how do you think the court is going to handle this? you've got three people on that bench that donald trump is responsible for? >> yes, there were three people in the nixon case that nixon had himself appointed. one took himself out, the other two ruled against nixon. similarly here, i find that question hugo that trump's statement of an 8 to 0 loss they declined jack smith had in the supreme court several years ago which jack smith wasn't even arguing. we can trust that cases with donald trump was directly involved, take the 2020 election like for donald trump ran to the supreme court time and time again, he got zero votes. 90 losses. take last year when he tried to exert executive privilege against the january 6th committee, he got a whopping one vote, eight justices voted against him. so if we want to talk about people's records in court, if trump wants to play that game, i'm not sure he's gonna do particularly well there. >> let's talk than just a little bit more, who is on that bench. you've got democrats on the senate judiciary neil, that are reportedly calling a clarence thomas to consider recusing himself from the case. of course, we all remember his wife ginni thomas and efforts to try to get lawmakers not to certify the election. i mean a view a two-parter. do you think he should recuse himself and part to do you think he will? >> as a rule, i never talk about recusals in any case, my cases or anyone else. that someone else's business. but i will just say that this supreme court and i know there are people who think it's very politicized and the like, but when it comes to donald trump, this is a court that is routinely ruled against him on big issues of the day. and when this case if it does go to the u.s. supreme court, this stephanie is a no-brainer. donald trump is saying, the word immunity is kind of whitewashing it, he is saying i am president and anything i did as president i have a get out of jail free card. that might be the law in putin 's russia but there's no way it's the law of the united states. it's literally what we fought the american revolution for and got rid of king george the third. trump is right that this issue has never been decided by the united states supreme court. you want to know why staff? because we have never had a former president try and assert such a crazy proposition that he as president is above all laws. issues. but if we step back a moment. do people realize that a year and a half from now, donald trump could be in the white house or the big house? >> yeah, it's a pretty stark contrast right? >> are we even realize that, are we forgetting that every day. >> i think about it every day. 't speak for other people, but it's my job. i think about how these cases might not go to trial before the election. the classified documents case might not go to trial before the election. if we have delays in the federal january 6th case, that may go to trial right before the election. maybe we have a resolution, maybe we don't. and when i think about these timelines, i kind of wonder that if he does get reelected to the white house, is even going to a point and general to drop these charges? >> the answer is yes just in case you're wondering. >> that, i think is the more pressing concern. i think it's less about whether he goes to trial, i think it's what happens in the aftermath. >> dave, what do you make about this other news that we heard today that jack smith is already revealing that he has a witness who has examined donald trump and some of his allies phone data that will obviously tell us what was going on on those falls at around january six. >> it's healthy for prosecutors because a whole theory of the case is that donald trump engaged in a conspiracy to obstruct official proceeding. eckes piercy to defraud the united states, and that these foot soldiers on the ground were paying attention to every word that he said, through his twitter account, through his public statements. and so, yeah, it really looks bad for him when he says, i said things they did it on their own. what looks like there was a little more coordination. and even if there's not more coordination is still looks bad. and one more thing, he's not being charged with incitement of insurrection, but he's still going to be charged essentially with motivating the people to do that. >> okay, new topic. pretty upsetting one. let's talk about rudy giuliani. today the jury heard some of the social media posts about ruby freeman and her daughter shaye moss that were based on giuliani's lies. the expert witness said she was not seeing used to seeing so much racist and graphic material especially in this volume. meanwhile, rudy giuliani, former mayor of new york city, a man who once wanted to be president of the united states, continues to insist that he was telling the truth. how can this be his defense? >> i have no idea stephanie. i thought the clips you showed at the beginning in which giuliani says one thing which is just so horrendous these two women and then it so determined and that's why he is looking at a really, really serious sanction coming out of this trial. >> hugo, do we know if he's going to take the stand? >> we don't. we had a report of that in the courthouse today and giuliani was pretty mom on how he's going to proceed. but hey said he had some preside surprises up his sleeve. who knows what that means? but i think any testimony he's going to give is gonna be test damaging to him in, the same with the trump testifying in his trial was not necessarily helpful. giuliani came out of the courthouse and it was already repeating the same things that he has been liable for definition for. if he tries the same thing on the stand, that is not gonna end well for him. >> he's been sued for a lot of money between 15 and 40 some money million dollars. he doesn't have any so what's gonna? happen >> you can't get blood from the storm. but he's got a lot of lot of rich friends. i seem around palm beach, so he's continually holding court. >> he might hang with a fast crowd, but in the eyes of the law, they are not gonna say your friends with these rich people, they're gonna write shea and will be a check for 40 large. >> he's in dire straits financially. the irs has a lean on his home in palm beach. but he has been able to get donald trump to raise fund-raisers for him and raise money for his legal defense. so i suspect he has some money hidden here or there. after holly except a default judgment because he didn't want to turn over his financial documents. so perhaps there's more to it than he lets on. >> okay but if he's hiding the money, does that mean the government, how is the government going to find? it >> it's really difficult. there are lawyers who specialize in this area. he thinks that they are never gonna get the money. that's why he is now denying that he did anything wrong. he's doubling down on his lies. because i think in the end he thinks he can get away with it. >> neil, here's what's crushing about all of this. our entire election system depends on people like ruby and shaye. so is in this case about a whole lot more than defamation? just about protecting our democracy and the american people? think about what these two women went through. >> you are 100 percent right i'm so brad you bring up the topic here because it's not about these two individuals, it's not about what just happened in georgia or what happened in d. c.. it's a whole entire assault on our democracy, on our election system. these people keep on and insisting that they won the election and cockamamie lives which have been debunked time and time again. so much so that this weekend jacks mitt filed something in d. c. court saying that trump keeps saying that there is evidence out there that i won the election, let me tell you all the people that i talked to, jack smith and it included 12 different trump officials including trump's head of the cia, all of trump's national security people, trump's top doj people, and every one of them said, no trump lost. there was nothing to this. but still they weave this tale of lies in the hope that in 2024 they can do it again and they can extend the same types of horrendous treatment and attacks on these people. that's what's at stake in these trials, not just what is going on against juliana, but all over now, in georgia, and d. c. and other places. >> they, the intimidation and harassment of these ladies are part of the georgi expect he wi. >> that's true, but donald previously did in law would've prosecut no republicans are te djohn d discuss what went on your way. he federal i election interrence in d. c. his naendant i georgia. unlike donald has a d undersnding he law works. would've prosecuterudy giulianiday. >> while we'rnna and in thakind o prophec. no hlowell, ronberg, neall like y joining starting us off th end. when we k, house republs are up a vote to formally launch hment inquiry into presden. but one republican senator say he has seen zero, zip, zilch absolutely no evidence to do so and later, a leading expert on misinformation says meta's influence on harvard led to he dismissal. john donovan is here to discus what went on your way. the accessories! theyre all on sale! dont wait! our most popular colors and patterns will sell out! go to blendjet.com and take advantage of our holiday sale now. i got this $1,000 camera for only $41 on dealdash. dealdash.com, online auctions since 2009. this playstation 5 sold for only 50 cents. this ipad pro sold for less than $34. and this nintendo switch, sold for less than $20. i got this kitchenaid stand mixer for only $56. i got this bbq smoker for 26 bucks. and shipping is always free. go to dealdash.com right now and see how much you can save. [upbeat music] ♪♪ ♪♪ new pork carnitas. only at el pollo loco. i would not be here were not (♪♪) (♪♪) the new festive family meal. starting at $24. now celebrating at el pollo loco. for my local firefighters, they saved my life. i had a cranal aneurism. the fire department came up, put me in back and took me in heavy snow all the way. i went down to walter reed, that's where i had to have the operation. i got there for a nine hour operation that saved my life. it's not a joke. my firefighters, the guys i grew up with, they saved my life. >> president biden was in the city of brotherly love today talking about his personal connection with firefighters. he was there to speak about new funding that will let the city reopen three fire companies and pay the salaries of 72 firefighters. meanwhile, house republicans are considering voting on an impeachment inquiry into president biden on wednesday. this weekend, republican senator mitt romney told meet the press that he does not see any evidence to support such an inquiry. back with me to discuss my dear friend years symone sanders, former msnbc host, spokesperson for vice president harris, her morning show the weekend kicks off in january. and reed galen looks like he stepped in from elk hunting. he is the cofounder of the lincoln project. he's worked on a number of gop campaigns, including john mccain, arnold schwarzenegger and george w. bush. symone, the smokescreen is obvious. how does this play with key voters especially in states like pennsylvania? >> well look, the voters in pennsylvania saw president biden today because they saw on the local news. probably pick up their local newspaper tomorrow or, wherever they get the coffee, they'll see him on the front pages. but what about the voters in places like georgia and arizona and other battlegrounds across the country? i think that's why it's important the president makes this travel and frankly the cabinet, the treasuries and the vice president making these travels to talk about these things. because the more people can see what the white house, what the government is doing, the more they can hear it from joe biden, i think it just drives the home even further. we hear a lot about the republican chaos and we hear a lot about donald trump, but we should hear as much about what joe biden is doing. >> read you have a former presidential nominee in mitt romney going on national tv and saying he sees no evidence for this impeachment, yet the committee is going full steam ahead. do they really think this is going to help with independent voters cause they're gonna muddy the waters, have the word impeachment out there, and let independent voters think that they are all crooks, they're up to no good. knowing that they are not going to be successful in impeaching him? >> i think you just laid it out right there, and i would also say that senator romney actually voted against a president of his own party i should say to convict donald trump of high crimes and misdemeanors. i think you are absolutely right. you take what president biden was doing with firefighters, kurt vonnegut famously said that there is no greater symbol of man's humanity to man is the then the fire truck. i think that's one thing that joe biden has going for him is humanity. and the house republicans as i told you, i think the last time as with you stephanie, mike johnson is gonna make his members take this vote. he's gonna make them take this vote. he is probably going to cost somewhere between eight and 15 members of his own party with seats like this. because now they're gonna have to go back to their districts and not talk about a new bridging or new firefighters or trucks or all of those things, but the things that comer, this guy who cannot get his act together or on fox news or any of these other places water they want to hitch their wagons to these people stars? it just shows you with maga, republicans, trump it only goes in one direction and it's always towards the darkness. >> symone at one point in modern history, mitt romney was the presidential nominee but that was a lifetime ago, especially if you consider that yesterday he said if he endorsed anyone right now, any republican, it would be like a kiss of death, and he would cast his vote for joe manchin. what do you think about that? >> i mean it just goes to show how far we have fallen. when mitt romney, who was at one point the standard bearer for the republican apparatus. when mitt romney can't even bring himself to defend this current cast of characters, the current republican party, i think people should take back and take pause. the realities that mitt romney, and mitt romney's of the world are no longer the state. donald trump, to marjorie taylor greene's, the speaker mike johnson's, those folks are. i think what we are seeing, my award of the year's reckoning the word of the year's reckoning. we've seen a reckoning of the republican party. next year the chickens are gonna come onerous and we will find out this reckoning was just for a good time for long time, or if it is fundamentally shifted and we are really going to be in the darkness for a while. >> what do you think reed? >> well i think if you look at surveys a year out especially what we have seen at cnn at the last couple of days, i can understand why you might be concerned. but again, we are a long way out. i think sometime in the next 90 to 120 days, you can have a convergence of events between american starting to feel good american economic data. donald trump now going to be the presumptive nominee of the republican party again while is getting ready to go on trial and washington, d. c. for setting up, attempting and directing a coup, and i think that donald trump as he usually does will do a lot of the work for us. but i think we should all say, and i think symone imagine this with the cabinet officials and the president self, democrats must go out there and get in the fight. q1, q2, too late. gotta do it today, got to get any and all assets you have. that does just doesn't mean money, or i buy, but if you have a story to tell, and somebody you can tell that story, get them out of their office in washington, d. c. and get them into a battle state tomorrow. >> all right reed new topic. riddle me this one. a week ago when kevin mccarthy said he was leaving congress, i would've thought it was going to try to join some corporate boards, make some big money, take his big super pac donors and go after far-right maga donors the ones who tortured him. yet today east throws a curveball, endorses donald trump, and says he will be open to serving donald trump in a cabinet position. what's up with these two? the matt gaetz's of the world would never have gone after kevin mccarthy if they would blast by donald trump to do so? >> i think it's amazing that kevin mccarthy can walk upright seeing as he is spineless. i will say that he is no other place to go. he knows that as symone as pointed out it is the party of mike johnson, donald trump, whoever will later replace mitch mcconnell. the d set for the consulting class, the lobbyist class is in for a reckoning, is in for a rude awakening sometime in the next 12 to 18 months. and so what i would say is that he just can't quit donald trump. doubt it. i w line go back to bakersfield >> dan, r 2024. what a way to ring year. convdon't go anywhere. >> dan, a rude ang for 2024 what ao ring in the ne mone d. sandertownsendwe're gonn 're gonna let you get back t counting when wme back, one of th most expected researches o social media in disinformation said she was pushed out of harvard university her warning about big tech and its influence over academi research when the 11th hou continues. this is an important conversation don't go anywhere. turn up the volume for this one. one of the leading scholars in the world of disinformation research says her former employer, harvard dismissed or. why? to curry favor with meta, that's facebook. in a whistle blower disclosure, joan donovan acknowledges meadows growing influence with the university including a 500 million dollar pledge from the nonprofit organization started by mark zuckerberg himself went to her exit. donovan's been an outspoken voice in the world of disinformation often pointing out how, internet companies, profit from this. a harvard kennedy school denies the claim, saying the doctors claims of unfair treatment and donor interference are false. the university also said it is a long-standing policy that research projects are led by faculty members which donovan was not. the faculty member leading the project left harvard, they were unable to find a replacement and the program was and it. the school also said she was not fired. with us for more joan donovan herself, currently a professor at boston university as one of the world's experts for leading internet disinformation. she wrote the book meme wars, -- joan i welcome you back, i wish it was on better news. what do you think about harvard's response, what do you want people to know? >> well, you lead with their disclaimer, but they have made no specific assertions about anything that is untrue and if you do dig into the whistleblower website you can read the full disclosure. most of the things that they are upset about our their own emails to me. i was hired as a staff member, i was a professor, adjunct faculty member at the school. and so, what had happened while i was there, i was recruited for six months to take a position as a project director. i named the project, i hired all my own employees. the person that they are referring to that left was the faculty director of the center. but he did not oversee me or my project at all, and when he did leave, i was given a retention offer with a race to stay at harvard. and every time that i tried to leave i was given a promotion or a raise. so i find it very strange to hear that they have been searching for someone to replace me all the while they never had a problem with me bringing in $12 million for research and conducting some of the most consequential research i would say on disinformation we've seen in the last decade. >> given how important research is, even if this faculty director left school, given how important disinformation is right now, are we supposed to believe harvard just couldn't find a replacement? >> you know, last night i was invited over to a very prestigious professors house and she told me that nobody ever approached her about overseeing my research. it's a very convenient thing for them to bring up because the faculty rule and not to get into the minutiae of everything is that the dean can make exceptions. and i actually have a run leader from dean's leadership allow me to run my own project. in fact the fact of the matter is that in october, 2020 went i had received the entire trove of the facebook whistleblower's documents. and i said during a donor meeting where i was invaded by the dean to raise funds for the university, i said that i have these documents in hand and that i believed they were the most important documents in internet history. and wouldn't you know it, a facebook executive was on that very call. >> the washington post reports that research into disinformation like yours is under attack, largely by the right. why is the quest to root out lies becoming a partisan issue? this should be a national trust, a national security issue that we should all care about? >> i agree with you wholeheartedly stephanie and that's why i was hardened to be invited to the hell last week to talk with different congressional offices across the spectrum. i do think that with me coming out as a whistle blower, we also have other follow on stories from the washington post about times when meta specifically has tried to pressure journalists into creating a rosier sheen for the research. so i'm hoping that i am simply the tip of the spear here and that in a bipartisan way we can start to realize that yeah, we can go chase the-backed actors online until the end of time. but the fact of the matter is, -- they are the products that are hurting our democracy, they're hurting teenagers, they are amplifying genocide. facebook knows. that's the crux of my problem. essentially was that i was pointing out that facebook knew and that i was going to lead and international research initiative into these over 800 documents from whistleblower frances haugen. just to put a cherry on top of it i, did get the documents completely legally, and facebook hasn't made any statement but harvard did put up on the ft archive dot org a history that is totally false, that claims that another professor got the drop of the documents. she showed them to me and i told her that they were importance. they are going to go with this story that it was an ominous drop so that their intellectual property isn't threatened and that the funding for the archive continues without acknowledgment even that i was the source. >> harvard is facing a whole lot of hot water up there in boston. joan, thank you for being here tonight i appreciate. always good to see. you >> thank you so much. >> coming up. we are staying on top of this issue of misinformation as infamous conspiracy theorist alex jones is back on acts. we get into it with our dear friend jake ward when the 11th hour continues. dealdash.com, online auctions since 2009. this playstation 5 sold for only 50 cents. this ipad pro sold for less than $34. and this nintendo switch, sold for less than $20. i got this kitchenaid stand mixer for only $56. i got this bbq smoker for 26 bucks. and shipping is always free. go to dealdash.com right now and see how much you can save. 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(man) no health questions. -physical exam? -don't need one. it's colonial penn guaranteed acceptance whole life insurance. if you're between the ages of 50 and 85, your acceptance is guaranteed in most states, even if you're not in the best health. options start at $9.95 a month, 35 cents a day. once insured, your rate will never increase. a lifetime rate lock guarantees it. keep in mind, this is lifetime protection. as long as you pay your premiums, it's yours to keep. call for more information and the simple form you need to apply today. there's no obligation, and you'll receive a free beneficiary planner just for calling. there is a lot happening in the world of technology, and misinformation. from what john donovan told us about the influence of meta, to elon musk welcoming conspiracy theorist alex jones back on to twitter. so who better to talk to all of it about then my dear friend jake ward, nbc news tech correspondent was here in new york city, so he had to join us. what do you think about what john donovan said? harvard university couldn't find a faculty adviser for a research initiative on disinformation? >> yes, the intricacies of that place or how to decode, and we've had a lot of contact with john donovan since that whistleblower came out, you know, i do know that there is a pattern across academia of big tech companies offering a great deal of funding -- >> $500 million. >> in that, case that is a nonprofit that the zuckerberg foundation giving a nonprofit contribution to create an eye -- that you have much more direct connections. there is a professor at berkeley who told me about basically doing a partnership with facebook to study deepfake, getting halfway through it and coming under some pressure to not speak at the -- any longer, and saying i'm out. he returned more than 1 million dollars back to facebook, because he said as he told me, he considered it a quid pro quo. there is time in relationships with tech companies and universities, these academics have a hard time finding funding, tech companies are only too happy to step in, it gets them into a lot of trouble. a sticky situation where he is talking about there. >> joan has said before that misinformation is warfare. we have two separate wars going on right now. how are we seeing the misinformation machine impact of the israel-hamas war? >> this is the tough thing about seeing a moment where we are having this much trouble finding the academic research is to do these -- it could not be more important than it is right now. you look at what is happening since october seven, researchers from all of the major platforms are basically saying, we do not have the tools we need to look into what is happening here, to figure out why, people are being exposed to many times more disinformation when one platform then another. right now we know that across acts for example, the people who paid $8 a month to be verified, users are far more likely 78% more likely to be responsible for the false information so the systems are truly amplifying this stuff, not just in a kind of random unfortunate way, but in some cases in ways that really show a pattern, something built into the system that has gone terribly wrong. new researchers do not have what they need, they don't have the insight into places, didn't have the access to the data, they don't have the resources to look. that is why it is so tough to be watching this particular moment in israel. >> let's talk about elon musk and his news this weekend. he has chosen to let conspiracy theorist alex jones, the guy who was found guilty and liable for spreading lies about murdered children, elon saw an interview that alex jones did with tucker carlson, and said come on back to twitter. >> how did this happen? and how does elon musk stand to gain from this? >> not only did he bring him, back he put him on the eve of the anniversary of sandy hook. it is about to be an anniversary in a week. it is either outrageously insensitive, or at the very least extremely, extremely enraging and triggering. so what i keep hearing from people who -- he is used his personal brand to amplify the message of -- he got the word out about evs, my being as public as he possibly could, and that his experience on twitter is sort of part of that. but now we are in this place where seems to sort of be spiraling in on himself. he has never run a company before in advertising was our the source of revenue. he has only ever sold products. the advertising was part of that. now he is in a place where he seems to be trying to amplifying the message, kind of for its own sake -- >> but why alex jones? elon musk, father of, 11 things it cool? >> i think the fan base that elon musk has acquired, his acquired through more and more outrageous behavior, i don't know if he somehow did some study that shows some overlap between the infowars people in the kind of people who buy test, but that used to be his strategy. now it is not clear to me. if anything, it feels to the people a speak to a little self-destructive. there's just something missing here and the calculus. it does not feel strategic, it just feels like somebody -- >> he calls himself a free speech absolutist. he said this weekend, if he thinks a government agency is breaking the law in their demands on twitter, he is prepared to go to prison over it. what is he talking about? because that has echoes of donald trump. ah, these bills are crazy. she has no idea she's sitting on a goldmine. well she doesn't know that if she owns a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more she can sell all or part of it to coventry for cash. even a term policy. even a term policy? even a term policy! find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com. the last thing before we go tonight, back on the court. some very good news for the james family. lebron son -- making his big debut at usc just months after a cardiac arrest. our own -- has more on last night's big big game. >> just four and a half months after suffering cardiac arrest, this is the moment bronny james made his college basketball debut. his legendary father lebron james courtside. a sold out crowd on their feet, celebrating the university of southern california freshman. brawny's remarkable recovery coming after his family says, he underwent successful surgery the summer to treat a hard effect. >> we are great as a family, we have great doctors along the way the whole time telling us that they believed things would work out for us. >> now the next generation of basketball royalty, is even emulating that. brian it played just 16 minutes off the, bench has long reach upset the trojan's during overtime, but nothing could spoil the gratitude the 19 year old felt. >> i just want to say i'm thankful for everything, my parents, siblings, supporting me through this, -- >> lebron reflecting on the emotional day on instagram, writing all i can, say bronny, you are simply credible. you have already won the ultimate gold championship, and that is life. -- nbc news, los angeles. >> what a night. great to see him out there. we wish him a fantastic season, and continued good health. on that note, i wish you a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thank you for staying up late. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. okay. i've been looking forward to talking to my first guest tonight for a very long time. when we first launched the show, nine months ago, earlier this year, we made a big list of people we wanted to talk to. and liz cheney was always near the top of it. well, tonight, liz cheney is here, here with me in new york, and this would've been pretty surprising to me a few years ago.