Transcripts For MSNBCW Alex 20240702

it's sharp. and it is crippling. >> and that could be, where, for example -- >> i've had it in my knees, my arm, anywhere there is a joint. >> now, larae runs and works out in the gym, things she always wanted to do, but never could do before. >> it's changed your life. >> yeah. >> you said it's given new life. >> it's given me life, yeah. >> experts argue the cost puts it out of reach for many families. these price tag is two point $2 million. but it's likely insurance will cover at least some of it. >> so, technically, it is one procedure, but the entire process is arduous, last several months, and the young woman the story said it was also painful. but en asked if she would recommend this treatment to others suffering from sickle cell, she said absolutely, yes. in jt few minutes, former has speaker kevin mccarthy did this week, and what he said. also, the current house speaker said what he said when he thought the cameras were turned off. here is a clue. moses. >> top of the hour, very good day from msnbc world headquarters here in new york, welcome to alex witt reports. we begin with breaking news in the israel-hamas war. just the last hour, the state -- announcing the u.s. has approved 100 and $6 million in emergency arm sales to israel. it will be used for product proximity 13,000 tank shells. this gives the usual congressional review process, and, also some more breaking news. the texas supreme court is putting a hold on a woman's legal emergency abortion. on thursday, lower court tells kickboxer she could terminate her pregnancy after finding out her fetus had a terminal disease. but then, overnight, the state's highest court ruled the judge's decision is not the final say. in just a few minutes, i'll be speaking with abortion rights advocate and former texas state congresswoman, wendy davis, about what this means for kate, for texas, as well as the entire country. also new today, a wall street journal poll just out showing president biden losing some ground of her former president donald trump. now just 11 months to go. so, the survey shows donald trump taking a four point lead over president biden in a hypothetical 2024 rematch. speaker mike johnson is planning to hold a vote next week that could formally authorize the impeachment inquiry into president biden. this morning, congresswoman deborah ross weighed in on what she hopes the outcome will be. >> i'm hopeful that it will fail. and so many of these republican votes have been failing. i'm hoping it will fail because even members of the republican conference know that impeachment is just not fair for joe biden. >> a federal appeals court is upholding the gag order placed on donald trump in his federal election interference case. the decision bans trump and his legal team from making critical comments about potential witnesses, as well as prosecutors. donald trump is expected to take the stand monday as his new york civil fraud trial is wrapping up. you will surface the defenses final witness in the case. and we're going to begin with the breaking news in the israel-hamas war in just this last hour. but white house approving emergency $106 million in arms sales to israel. we're going to get that in just a moment, but let's get to the latest developments on donald trump. joining me here in the studio, chloe atkins, nbc news investigative reporter at charles coleman. former brooklyn new york prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. chloe, welcome to you, welcome to you both, we will get, you, charles in just a sec. you have been in this courtroom. you have been covering this trial. let's begin with this fascinating wrinkle from yesterday. it goes like this. trump's key expert witness, as you know, that trump's political action committee paid a big portion of the nearly $900,000 that was a fee that he charged, in order to testify on behalf of the defense. so, what did he say about these payments? >> as you said, trump's key start witness is an nyu accounting professor, conceded on the stands. it was this major development that his fees are testifying on behalf of defense were split between the trump organization, which is the defendant, and trump's pack. now, we want to remind folks is not unusual for a defendant to pay an expert witness to testify on their behalf during the trial. however, it does show this pattern from trump's pack, paying his legal bills, and his legal battles that have been taking place for sometime now. now, this accounting expert said on the stand that he would invoice the trump organization, but, then the bank statements would either say they were paid by the trump organization or trump's pack, save america. >> trump made, as you, know a day-long cameo appearance on thursday in the courtroom to hear a testimony of this expert witness, eli barr, talk let's take a listen to trump, here he is. >> i should be right now in iowa, when south carolina, i shouldn't be sitting here -- why do i have to sit here? i could just do what i want, whatever i want to do. and want to make sure that we get -- >> so, what did we hear from this accounting expert? what was the true story that we got, and did trump's presence, do you think you could have any influence here? >> the true story, according to trump in this expert witness the ruffle word on the stand, this past week was that the expert found out there was no fraud or evidence of fraud when it came to trump's financial statements. he said the attorney generals office, which has brought this case, came to flawed conclusions. now, as you mentioned, trump was present there. he is not legally obligated to be there or at that time, but i think it's really part of this framing of him you know, getting up his base and really being labeled, or framing himself is being prosecuted. >> but he is going to be required to be there on monday, when he will be the defenses closing witness, right? what are you watching for? >> exactly, i'm watching for if he actually shows up on monday and that is because, so, they had a momentous week. the trump team did, they appealed trump's gag order, which we all know very much so about. it was put in place, to keep trump from talking about the judge's court staff, and they attempted to appeal that in time for trump to take the stand on monday. however, that was denied, and the arguments around the appeal will not happen until after monday. and again, he has violated this gag order twice. he has incurred thousands of dollars, 15,000 of dollars, in fines thus far. now, if trump doesn't show up, he will likely say that he depended on his accountants. there was no trace of fraud, and that this is a witch hunt and a hoax. >> something we've heard a lot from him. all right, thank you very much, chloe, for that, part we were to you, charles. things got pretty testy when trump was called to the stand by the prosecution monday. he is under this gag order. we were just talking about that. his defense team has to be ready for him to be cross-examined. so, is it a smart move by trump's lawyers to put him on the stand? >> charles, we can't hear you. charles, can you put your audio on? there we go. >> apologies. it is not, alex. i think donald trump is still someone we have to realize, it's a very difficult witness to deal with if you are talking about a client you are trying to control. so, i don't envy the positions his lawyers are, in terms of making the decisions on putting him on the stand. he's not a person was a significant amount of control over what he says, when or how he has says it, and all of that is something that could ultimately come out into his detriment. i think that is something that his attorneys have been significantly concerned about. you're talking about some, what is important understand,, alex was a significant history with civil trials and being sued. so, he has enjoyed the sport, if you will, of going back and forth with attorneys and depositions. but being at a trial is an entirely different -- and i think people need to understand he has a lot more at stake, given where he is in this case. so, it's not a good decision, and i'm very interested to see how this all going to play out. >> what about the 900,000 dollar fee? that's a lot of money paid out to the ex witness, and pardon by trump's political action committee. that seem like normal practice to you, or could it make the judge consider the witness a bit less credible? >> you know, alex, i think in a case like this, it is less of a concern. if this were a jury trial, that would be immediately something the prosecution would seize, to say basically, look, you have the defendant, who has paid 1 million billion dollars for the witness to come into say what they wanted him to say, what else to do expect the experts to say? they paid him almost 1 million dollars. so, there is a real line to damage the credibility of the experts. in the jury trial, but in a case like this, where it's a bench trial, it's in front of the judge, the judge has already the sign that thought about that. experts can charge whatever but want to, however, it is important to point out that it's more likely than not that he could've found an expert was more reasonable. the question is, whether that's expert, who had lower prices, what if actually told him the same things that they wanted to hear. >> so, there are some new developments to chat about in the d.c. election interference case, because yesterday, as you know, federal appeals court upheld a gag order on donald trump that limits public statements on potential witnesses, on prosecutors, on court staff, and their families. but this three judge panel,, turtles narrowed the ruling and made an exception for special counsel jack smith. how well do you think the court struck a balance between protecting free speech, while protecting judicial process? >> yeah, alex. it's been a very difficult conversation to figure, in terms of where that line and policy struck. i think the court of appeals here did a very good job. in terms of recognizing the need for the public to actually hear what donald trump has to say, as a presidential candidate, and as someone who is currently running for office, that was taken into consideration and you would know that one of the church of set this order is not signed lightly. and i thought that was an indication that hey, we have understood and considered the various concerns. depending on who you are, this is willfully went aloft for both sides. i think more than, i is a win for the prosecution, and as much as it upholds more of what judge chutkan wanted in the original order them, not i think it does give trump some leeway. but in terms of what the ultimate goal was, which was preserving the level of civility around and objective trial so donald trump can have a constitutional right and preserve his constitutional right to a trial by jury of his peers, that's what this order ultimately does. it keeps them from tampering with witnesses. it keeps them from basically tainting the trial, mannequin more -- than he already is. but it also does not necessarily infringe upon his first amendment rights egregiously. so, i think there is this significant balance that was struck between what both sides want it. >> so, let me quickly ask you about also the election interference case. donald trump's team as indicated it's going t appeal jue tanya chutkan's rule that he can't claim prosecutoria immunity just because he was president. how much would this appeal slow down the process because the cases set for trial march 4th, it's the day before super tuesday. so, what are your thoughts on that? it depends on how long it takes to have this appeal considered. i don't necessarily think that march court date is going to hold, then we can expect it's going to be further beyond that. i do see a scenario or many scenarios where we can see a few weeks extension beyond that march 4th date with support to understand that even as that date is the technical beginning of the trial there's any number of things that could delay it but titania check in austin is in terms of showing that march 4th date as they were setting that date if that she was the senate indication double size she is trying to move this further and further along as quickly as she can. she wants to accelerate the speed at which this case is tried. given that, that doesn't necessarily mean that that march 4th date is ironclad, so, it is likely that if not for this, alex, or something, else it could extend when this trial takes place by two weeks or three weeks, for that matter. >> okay, charles coleman, my friend, thank you much for all of that. in just a few minutes, my conversation with olivia troye on what to expect for a potential donald trump term. also new today, we're hearing from outgoing congressman kevin mccarthy for the first time since he said he is leaving congress, and mccarthy reveals who he plans to support in 2024. and a possible new job he would be interested in, >> i will support the president. i will support president trump. >> would you be willing to serving a trump cabinet? >> in the right position. if i'm the best person for the job, yes. but i work with president trump on a lot of policies. we worked together to win the majority. but we also have a relationship or very honest with one another. >> and d.c.'s julie tsirkin is joining me right now. so truly, mccarthy says he standing by president trump in this election. will his endorsed mick a difference at all for trump? >> that's a good question, but it's certainly not clear how it would, because remember, mccarthy was ousted by a handful of conservative hard-line rebel rousers, if you will, who certainly do support the former president, though, for his, former trump did endorse mccarthy's first speaker bid, you kind of stayed out of it the second time around. it didn't really publicly defend him when he was at risk of being ousted, then, actually ended up backing others for the gavel, including, of course jim jordan, whose judiciary chairman leading the charge of impeachment. it's not clear if his endorsement will help trump. it's not necessarily surprising that he took a step, but it's interesting he waited until he left, until he announced he was leaving congress, resigning from this part of his life, of his political career to say he will back with former president and he will endorse him, and he's open to serving in his cabinet as you heard, in the right position. >> okay, switching gears, we just saw a week ago, george santos being expelled from congress. there's word, now, julie, the house republicans are considering taking steps to expel florida republican matt gaetz. is this something that could actually happen? >> speak of two people gates a mccarthy couldn't dislike each other anymore. i'm sure gaetz is glad he doesn't have to worry about mccarthy anymore, but he does certainly have to worry about the chance of possibly getting expelled because the house ethics committee is investigating him. they've been doing that for the last two years or so, initially, and that process was launched for democrats control the house, but of course, the committee is not partisan and they've been hearing from witnesses over the summer, when it comes to allegations that gaetz was potentially involved in having sex with a minor, and of, course we know the department of was investigating this as well. and i think that test for santos, one's colleagues were able to expel him without santos being convicted, breaking that precedent, as you heard gaetz say, did open the door for gates colleagues to do the same thing to him, if and when that report comes out from the ethics committee. >> okay, thank you for all of that. julie tsirkin on capitol hill. so you know her from her 2013 filibuster at the texas state capitol. it was important to pay attention then, and then ten years later, it's important to pay attention now. former texas state senator wendy davis on why a woman in that state has been temporarily blocked from having an emergency abortion. we're back in 60 seconds i was busy cashbacking for the holidays with chase freedom unlimited. i'm gonna cashback on a gingerbread house! oooh, it's got little people inside! and a snowglobe. oh, i wished i lived in there. you know i can't believe you lost another kevin. it's a holiday tradition! that it is! earn big time with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. we have this breaking news to share. the national weather service says a tornado is on the ground right now near sharon, tennessee. that's in the western part of the state. officials have confirmed and it is a quote, large and extremely dangerous tornado. it is moving about 15 miles an hour. a tornado warning remains in effect until 12:30 pm local time for nearby counties. we're going to have more on these weather situations as they develop for you. more breaking news to share, the texas supreme court is putting a hold on a lower c ruling that granted a pregnant woman's request for an emergency abortion. the court's judgment is not the final say, but it does pause the decision that cleared 31-year-old kate cox to terminate her pregnancy because her fetus has a fatal chromosome all disorder. before the pause, went into place, kate spoke with nbc news about her emotional reaction to the original ruling in her favor. >> it's a hard, hard time. you know? even with being hopeful, with the decision that came from the hearing this morning, there's still, we're going through the loss of a child. there is no outcome here that i take home or i take home a healthy baby girl, so, it's hard. you know? just grief. >> joining me now is wendy davis, former texas state senator and senior adviser for planned parenthood texas votes. good to have you. wendy. i'm curious about your reaction to the ruling that came down overnight. did you see this coming? >> i thought it might happen, alex. unfortunately, the texas attorney general, of, course immediately appealing the decision of the state courts that intervened and said that she could, against the backdrop of the texas abortion ban. seek the medical care that she needs. and that's the important thing to keep in mind here. this is a medical decision. this is health care. a private issue, where someone facing a true tragedy in her life, and then her family's expectations of what would happen with this pregnancy, and compounded against that, the fact that she is having to battle in court to try to get the care that she needs. >> and for how long is the question? her doctor says her life, her future fertility, is at great risk. if she doesn't get this procedure. she is 20 weeks along right now! how long is she going to have to wait? >> exactly. and you know, alex, she has now made four visits to the emergency room. for complications that she's having from this pregnancy. her lawyer put into evidence information about the fact that this could compromise her health. it could compromise her future ability to have another child, which she very much wants. and what she believed to understand is that we may not think we favor the right to access abortion care until we find ourselves in a moment like this. this could happen to you, it could happen to anyone that you love, and when these extreme abortion bans are in place, this is what the outcome looks like. it has a veryman,ery devastating consequence. >> so, response to the original ruling, but texas attorney general ken paxton issued this statement. the judges order will not insulates hospitals, doctors, or anyone else from civil and criminal liability from violating texas abortion laws. this includes a first degree felony prosecution. so, then, on x, wendy, you called his words the ugly dance in texas. one step forward, one giant, threatening step back. so, what does this mean? even if the supreme court lifts its pause, it's any doctor going to be willing to perform the legal abortion that was granted? >> it's a very good question, alex. because any doctor or hospital who allows this procedure to occur, or participates in, it is facing removal of a medical license and the rest of their lives in prison. that is the way the law is written in texas. and it's through these threats of extreme consequences that medical professionals, unfortunately, have been cowed. that's why we see another case in front of the texas supreme court now where more than 20 women have filed suit against texas and exec stream abortion law, because it has endangered their health, their doctors, have been afraid of providing needed, lifesaving care. and hospitals have been afraid to allow that care to occur within their walls. and we have to understand that unless we respond politically, unless we respond as we vote, we are not going to turn this around. because the climate of fear here is tremendous. and we are the ones who have the power to change its, if only we will take the time and the power to do that. >> so, wendy, those 20 women you're referencing, kate cox as well, does this meet anybody needing an emergency abortion for medical reasons in the state of texas has to go through the courts? is that even sustainable? it's not sustainable at all. unfortunately, the way the law is written which purports to allow an exception for life of the mother is written in such a way that doctors and hospitals are afraid of actually giving women lifesaving care. because they're afraid that some medical experts may be brought into a trial against them and say that their medical judgment actually wasn't correct, that this wasn't an emergency life of the mother situation. it doesn't give doctors any kind of security to be able to provide that care, and that is what that texas supreme court case is about. allowing doctors to exercise good faith judgment in providing the necessary medical care that their patients need. >> i'm so grateful for your voice on this, wendy davis. open invitation to come back anytime, because it's kind of information everyone needs to hear. thank you. in just a few hours, the president of an ivy league school could be out of a job over what she said and didn't say on capitol hill this week. >> week. >> which is why downy does more to make clothes softer, fresher, and better. downy. breathe life into your laundry. 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the subway series just keeps gettin' better. you're probably not easily persuaded to switch the subway series mobile providers for your business. but what if we told you it's possible that comcast business mobile can save you up to 75% a year on your wireless bill versus the big three carriers? did we peak your interest? you can get two unlimited lines for just $30 each a month. there are no term contracts or line activation fees. and you can bring your own device. oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. wireless that works for you. tomorrow, a trustees it's not just possible, it's happening. meeting may decide whether to expel the president funded mayorkas ali universities. during house testimony this week, about antisemitism on college campuses, the president of the university of pennsylvania, along with the heads of harvard and m.i.t., refused to unequivocally say that calling for the genocide of jews violate school policies on bullying and harassment, prompting calls for them to resign and a new congressional investigation into those colleges. joining me now, democratic strategist and former house oversight committee spokesperson for republicans, kurt bardella. welcome, my friend. so, where the presidents answers acceptable, and is the new republican-led investigation, is it warranted? or is it just some sort of a political football to attack the so-called woke universities, though i have to note, democratic senator kirsten gillibrand said all presidents should resign. so, where do you stand on all this? >> it's very clear that the answers that were provided by the university presidents were completely unacceptable. and it really wasn't a hard question. this wasn't a gotcha question. this wasn't trying to trip you up and things we've seen in congressional hearings. this is a pretty obvious question, and it really required a better use simple answer you would think your talk about one of the most prestigious academic institutions in the world, the people running those institutions would be evil -- able to come up with that obvious answer. the failure to do so is very concerning, at least people to wonder that if you can't give the most obvious answer right, well, what are you getting wrong? what are students experiencing every day on the ground in these institutions in this current climate that we're seeing these accelerated rhetoric and attacks? >> we're talking about upenn, m.i.t., and harvard. the leaders of these fine academic institutions. why couldn't they get it right the first time? >> i think what we saw was a kind of bubble mentality here. these presidents exist in this bubble of academic supremacy, and they got caught up by it. they trapped, they got caught by their own trappings, and it was exposed at this congressional hearing how out of touch they are with what the day-to-day reality is for their students. >> looking back to friday, the u.s. vetoed a u.n. security council resolution for an immediate cease-fire in gaza. nearly every nation backed that's resolution, but the u.s.-backed israel's claim that ending the war before the -- u.s. administration approved 100 $6 million for aid to israel, that how do you perceive the administration's handling overall of the israel issue, with some democrats calling for conditions on any further aid to israel? >> i think that for a lot of democrats, members of the presidents base, they're looking for a much more nuanced approach to this, not just an all in for israel, all the time mentality. there is kind of a generational rift we are seeing exposed between where the president has been on this and where a lot of the younger generation democrats are, and i think there is going to be a continuous clamoring for more conditions on eight, and i think listen, a lot of people just want to see a cease-fire. they want the violence to stop. they want the killings to stop. they want the travesties to stop, and we all israel, all the time, they are way it's not going to fly with where the democratic party is right now. >> okay, let's go to capitol hill, because this, week video emerged of remarks that speaker mike johnson made. it was at a private event for the national association of christian law makers. this is for johnson drew a connection between himself and the profit moses in recounting his chaotic rise to the speakership. let's take a listen to some of what he said. here it is. >> all right, we were having problems with the audio. let me read a little bit. i have at least the verbatim of this. when the speakers race happened and kevin mccarthy, who is a dear friend of mine, was supposed to vacated from the chair, oh, wow. this is what the lord may have been preparing us for. i started praying more. lord, began to wake me up through this three-week process were in, in the middle of the night, and to speak to me and write things down, plants, procedures, and ideas of how to bring this conference together. at the time, i assured the lord it's going to choose a new, or i assume, the lord is going to choose a new moses, and thank you lord, you're going to allow me to be aaron's to moses. so, since becoming speaker from relative obscurity, johnson's come under scrutiny for his association with christian extremists and some pretty alarming anti lgbtq positions. i'm curious your response to the comments, at least that i read, and that is verbatim to what he said. sorry you couldn't hear it. is he crossing the constitution's line between separation of church and state? >> yes, and he's crossing sanity lines. the idea that god, the almighty, and jesus is a white republican living in north america who gives two -- lives about who the speaker of the houses, it's absolutely insane. the arrogance of the right evangelical christian world demonstrates day in, and day out, they think that god is on their side, that he's whites and is paying attention to the day-to-day internal politics of the house republican conference in 2023, and that their prayers are somehow, have a direct line to god, is delusional. it's dangerous, and if that is your governing philosophy, you are portraying the very foundational -- of separation of church and state. >> okay, kurt bardella. thank you so much for -- good to see you. it has been a big topic this week. and for good reason. an ally of donald trump promising the former president will come after media and government critics in his second term. a former trump administration insider gives me her reaction, next. ction, next ♪♪ vicks vapostick provides soothing, non-medicated vicks vapors. easy to apply for the whole family. vicks vapostick. and try vicks vaposhower for steamy vicks vapors. meet the traveling trio. each helping to protect their money with chase. wooo! tools that help protect. alerts that help check. one bank that puts you in control. new today, campaign chase. make more of what's yours. officials are distancing donald trump from allies sketching out retribution plans for a second trump presidency. it follows a warning earlier this week from steve bannon and kash patel about what might be in store for trump two point oh. >> this is just not rhetoric. we are actually dead serious. cash, i know you're probably going to be head of the cia, but do you believe you can deliver the goods on this? >> one thing we learned in the trump and ministration the first go around this weekend but all american patriots of the bad. we will go out and find the conspirators not in the government, in the media. yes, we're gonna come after the people the media who lied about american citizens who helped joe biden rig presidential elections. we're gonna come after you, whether it's criminally or civilly, we'll figure that out. >> joining me now, olivia troye, former homeland security and counterterrorism adviser to former vice president mike pence. wow. cash patel was a national security official. do you know him? how seriously should we take him? >> i know cash patel well. i remember the first day he started in the white house, and i worked with him for a couple of years. i know what he's capable of. i was one of those people that he would try to block from meetings at times, when he was up to something the various when it came to either counterterrorism efforts or efforts on refugees, and i just kept showing up. he didn't think that some of us were loyal enough, especially those of us who went to mike pence's office. so, you don't think about that when you are in the vice president's office, and this is how they were already behaving. that was the first go around. so, just picture what they'll do next. i would argue that they've already started. with their frivolous lawsuits, i was the subject of one, and kash patel was one of the people behind it. so, that sort of effort has already begun. they will continue, and they will double down on it. we should take what kash patel is saying very seriously, because there is a plan in place by all these people to do this. >> what do you know about him? i mean, what's he like? >> you know, it's interesting. i actually know the person that hired him into the government to begin with, and i guess some people would say he wasn't like this at the very start, but i will say he is 100% a loyalist. he will lie at whatever expense, and i do know that he was part of an effort when he came in to help others clear out senior intelligence officials who were not going to lie and not perjury themselves on who we're going to tell the truth weathers about russia, or whatever what was going on, and i think he likely would be the head of the cia are worse off, you could be the head of the doj or any agency like that, so, i think when these people are talking about these things, these are not things we have taken likely. i've seen what they're capable of. i've been in the meetings and heard their rhetoric. this is very frightening and very, very possible that it will happen. >> i'm almost rendered speechless to think he would be the head of the cia or doj. trying to ram ahead around that, but let me talk about senior campaign advisers who were describing speculation about a second trump administration as, quote and unwelcome distraction, adding quote, despite are being crystal clear, some allies haven't gotten the hint. but when donald trump himself, who has asked directly about these reports, we'll take a listen to what he said about it. clearances. >> under no circumstances you are promising americans tonight you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody. >> except for day one. >> yeah! >> except for day one. he says, you're not gonna be a dictator, are you? i singer, no, no, other than day one. >> other than day one. that's like, 24 hours. a lot can get done with a dictatorial built approach. when you hear comments like this, do you get the sense that his allies are kind of freelancing? what do you think is happening? >> i think this is a concerted effort. i think the allies are imminent. they have a plan. i think they are moving forward with that plan. you have seen it play out with members of congress. i would say all of this is part of this machine that's behind trump. you will see people that will take a stand and possibly stick their necks out a little bit, but you will soon see all of these people fall back in line. it's fear. it's fear of trump turning in on them, and it's also opportunistic. it's personal preservation, i would say, in some cases. but when he says dictator on day one, just note that all of these plans will be in place to execute that. we saw this actually at the beginning of the trump ministration. we saw how haphazardly the he issued executive orders on the travel ban, the fact that really broke a system. this time, it will actually be very calculated. they know how to use the court. they have placed judges in places, slice of people who are in these meetings with horrific, racist vitriol that i heard, it meetings like child separation meetings that i sat in at a national security person? these people are now sat in places of power. so, i look at all the different layers that have already been put in place, and donald trump knows on that one, i am ready -- they a ready to flip the switch. >> there's another new big headline today. there are fears of a nato withdrawal rise as trump seeks a return to power. the new york times reports european ambassadors and think tank officials, they have been making pilgrimages to trump associates. they are trying to inquire about his intentions, olivia. so, does this suggest there is trepidation about trump's potential return to the oval office that's goes way beyond just our borders in the u.s.? >> oh, it would be a national security danger. he actually has been wanting to leave nato for several years now. it's something that came up repeatedly. in the white house, i know for a fact that john bolton, many times, had these discussions and argued with him about this. so, i think that we would probably be facing that possibility, and it would be a massive strategic failure internationally. it would be very hurtful for our european allies, and lastly, i would say it would be directly playing into putin's hands. and we have seen that donald trump is basically a puppet for that atrocious person, individual. >> but here's the thing. if you have foreign leaders, they are attachés making, pilgrimages and trying to speak with trump associates about what happens, do you take that to mean they think it's entirely possible that donald trump returns to the oval office? >> i think that what they are seeing is they are -- and this is a clear possibility. i would take that's a very serious sign of where we are going into 2024. and i will tell you this. i am in touch with some -- trump administration people who are horrified by the possibility of trump coming back, and they also fear it. they still will not take a stand and speak out, because they are concerned about what the future holds, so, all of those individuals are weighing the calculus and trying to play those sides of the house here, a potential trump had risen to see that spending, should get the nomination and win office. we should all be standing against this. it's going to take all of us to come together again. >> okay, olivia troye, come see me again soon. thank you very much. coming up next, the new concerns about a tactic israel is planning to use in gaza. to use in gaza we have some breaking news on the israel hamas or just a short time ago, the state department announced that the house has approved 100 $6 million in them urgency arms sales to israel. we have two reports on the war. nbc's hala gorani tonight tel aviv, but we will begin with nbc's gary grumbach, who is traveling the president. he joins us from los angeles. gary, what is israel getting? >> so, they are getting 100 and $6 million worth of essentially tank shells, which are really ammunition if, you will. it's about 14,000 pieces of ammunition here. and this is not a gift. this is a sale to israel. what they did here, with the state department in the white house did was completely bypass the regular process for arm sales to happen. usually, you have to go through congress, 30-day kind of waiting period or a commercial members get to review what happens, then, each side gets a vote on it. then, it goes to the white house for al. that did not happen here at. all the state department saying in a statement, quote, the united states is committed to thcurity of israel and its vital to u.s. national interests to assist israel to develop and maintain its strong and ready self-defense capability. this proposed sale is consistent with those objectives. and secretary of state, antony blinken, has made several trips to the region. he has met with leaders who say this is exactly what they need. alex? >> okay. well, thank you so much for the update on that brki news. gary, let's head overseas for more. and israeli hostage in gaza has been killed. the death confirmed in a statement from the victims coutts and the hostages and missing family for. let's go to nbc's hala gorani tonight. welcome to what we know about the death of this israeli hostage. how did it happen? that anything been confirmed? >> yeah, we he at confirmation that you just put up on screen there from kibbutz be'ri and the hostage association, the official statement, we will confirming the death of sahar baruch, 25 years old. a hostage that was killed, we understand, during a rescuer ten. we know the israeli military yesterday confirmed that two of its soldiers were badly wounded in a rescue attempt. hamas, on his telegram channel, actually dropped a photo and we can confirm this a photo of sahar baruch, of what looks like at this hostage, saying that to soldiers were badly wounded as well. we don't know if the soldiers wounded, according to the idf and those that are described -- by hamas are related to the same incident. but we know that unfortunately, this hostage has lost his life. this is all happening against the backdrop of some pretty intense diplomatic activity, once again, by the secretary of state, antony blinken, who was reaching out to arab leaders, including his counterpart in saudi arabia, saying that essentially, the u.s. is still committed to getting more humanitarian aid into the gaza strip, and this is happening a day after that united arab emirates sponsored resolution, calling for an immediate cease fire, was vetoed by the united states. you will remember, u.s. deputy ambassador to the u.n. explained the uss decision this way at the council, listen,. >> members of this council are advocating for resolutions half an obligation to explain how their proposals will break the cycle of unceasing violence and support the steps we all agree are necessary to lay the foundation for more peaceful and secure future, so that history does not keep repeating itself. our goal should not simply be to stop the war for today. it should be to end the war forever. break the cycle of unceasing violence, and build something stronger in gaza. >> well, this u.s. position was celebrated by the israeli prime minister, but it is coming as the world food programme is saying nine out of ten gazans are not able to use every day, alex. >> it is extraordinary, this reporting. hala gorani tonight, get for. that is mounting speculation an concerns over a tactic the israeli military may used to disable the vast network of tunnels under gaza. u.s. officials are telling nbc news the idf is considering flooding have hundreds of miles of tunnels with seawater in an attempt to drive a hamas fighters. joining me now, former cia officer and nbc news national security and intelligence analyst, mark polymeropoulos. i want to get to that in just a second, but your take on this hostage who was killed. in the fog of war, if you will, that rescue of somebody who might be in a tunnel, is it understandable that it would be hard to know who was actually responsible for killing him, under the circumstances? nobody is claiming responsibility at this point. fingers are being pointed, though. >> well,. look at the end of the day, is ultimately responsible for this, because they took a hostage. but this is a giant conundrum for the israelis right now the. negotiations have failed. there was, frankly, no more hostages that hamas was willing to put forward, so david -- left qatar, and the offense resumed. but in the offensive, as israel is pursuing hamas operatives and leadership and of course, most of the south today with the underground tunnel system that we're going to talk about in a second, the hostages are there. so, it's a huge risk that the hostages are armed. and this is one of the terrible situations that the idf and the state of israel is in, and hostages issued, as you know, is incredibly emotional going forward for israel. >> so, let's set aside the hostages, not because they are the most important aspect to it, but i'm looking at this froma war tactic. flooding about tunnels. is it's possible? uld it be effective? would it leave gaza without the ability to use these things again? would that wipe out what hamas has done? >> so, this is interesting. first of all, it is not unprecedented. the egyptians have actually flooded tunnels that were going between gaza and egypt. they did that several years ago. and the israelis have done so as well. if you think about it, as the tunnels are the key military objective for so many different reasons that we just talked about, that hamas is hiding there. their leadership is hiding there, and the hostages are there. in some ways, this could even hasten or quick in the end of the war. and these rallies are thinking of doing this for several reasons, but primarily, the idea of the israeli idf soldiers coming in on the tunnels are booby trapped and there's i eats. experiment. andrés i would think they would have some positive intelligence when they do this, because of, course they don't kill their own hostages. but i'm not surprised that this is a tactic being considered. you don't see much, you know, opposition from the u.s. side if you read that reporting. i think it is something we are going to start using selectively in the future. >> look, when you think about this, and only the quick answer. if you are flooding tunnels, this is part of, they are under the foundation of buildings and gaza. does that mean everything is on top, everything on top is unstable, going forward? that's it? >> i think there's concern over that. there's really concern over the water supply. you know, the desalinization plants. there is going to be massive rebuilding effort, in terms of infrastructure. this is gets another kind of cost of the war, and gaza, on mass, it's going to have to be rebuilt. this is one part of it. >> all right, sorry it was so brief. we'll be back and soon, my friend. thank you, mark. that will do it for me on this edition of alex witt reports. we'll see you again tomorrow. one pm eastern. my friend yasmin vossoughian continues our coverage, after brick. rage, afte brick. nyquil honey, the nighttime, sniffing, sneezing, couging, aching, fever, honey-licious, best sleep with a cold, medicine. 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