brink of a constitutional crisis, at least once. eroded americans faith and democracy and shattered peoples trust in the electoral system. yet, despite all of that, a significant portion of the electorate still believes that he deserves another four years in the white house. trump has made it clear that he's running a campaign of retribution and vengeance, promising to enact hard-line policies that could run afoul of the law and even saying that he wouldn't be a dictator, except for on day one. that's a direct quote. he's already plenty of reports out there about the kinds of draconian plans that trump and his close allies are preparing for a possible second term, including a crackdown on immigration that involves sweeping raids, giant detention camps, along the border, and mass deportations of millions of people each year. trump has made it well known that he intends to weaponize the justice department against his political enemies and critics in an attempt to stifle descent and silence the opposition. is clear that those working on these plans understandat some of these policies may be controversial and divisive, partly because they learned during the first trump administration that there are checks to presidential power. and that's why essential component of a second trump term involves a drastic overhaul of the executive branch that could lead to thousands of current employees being replaced by people who are perfectly aligned with his ideology. whatever that may be. loyalty is the key turning a spot at the second trump administration. it doesn't seem to matter what skill sets you have or how experienced you are. according to axios, sources close to trump say his team already has a short list of people who can serve in a loyalty first cabinet. check this out. possible vice presidents include trump's former press secretary, sarah huckabee sanders, the prominent election dire, kari lake, former fox news host, tucker carlson, to name a few. take a look at this potential cabinet. the likes of stephen miller and jeffrey clark, one of his codefendants in the r.i.c.o. case in fulton county, georgia. his son-in-law, jared kushner, as secretary of state. i will point out jamie dimon who is on this thing. he's the ceo of jpmorgan chase. this one doesn't really seem to fit, to me. he's not exactly considered a trump loyalist, but rather someone who the trump team considers to be a star power pick. a source tells axios that trump, quote, loves billionaires. there are obstacles in the way to implement these policies, but trump's allies have proven that they are willing to jump over all of them, legal or not. but the republican party as a whole is continuing to shift farther to the right, and the more they do it, the more it benefits trump and his agenda. in less than a decade, donald trump has managed a near complete takeover of one of the major political parties in america. a point emphasized by the resignation this week of kevin mccarthy, the recently ousted speaker of the house, who, in a previous era, was seen as the future of the gop. mccarthy is one of a number of republican congress members not running for reelection in the fall, which leaves the door open for trump loyalists to fill the void. among those already being discussed as a possible replacement for mccarthy is devin nunes, a former congressman and close trump ally who currently serves as the ceo of trump social media company. in uh, the prominent trump it, mitt romney, is resigning from the senate and one of the people competing for his seat is caroline phippen, who was spotted marching in a stop the steal rally in washington, d.c., and has since deleted facebook posts, according to the star, salt lake tribune. meanwhile, the colorado congressman ken buck has been a vocal critic of those who spread the big lie. he's also retiring. one of the candidates from his seat is an unabashed trumpist, who supports a baseball cap that reads, maga king. while it's far too early to see if any of these people have an actual shot at winning anything, the message is clear. trump loyalists are ready to fill the seats being vacated by moderate or anti trump republicans, as the gop continues its shift. with me now is joe walsh, former republican congressman for the state of illinois. he was a 2020 person's presidential candidate. he ran primaries against donald trump, he's also the host of the podcast, white flag with joe walsh, also with us, jennifer reuben, opinion writer for the washington post. she's an msnbc political analyst, host of the podcast jen rubin's green room, as well as the author of the book, resistance, how women save democracy from donald trump. these two are both friends of mine and great friends of our show. thank you both for being here. joe walsh, let me start with you. i've sort of been using the language as the republican party goes further and further into the right, but i always think that that's a separate issue, right? the right would shift to the republican party is not what we're really talking about here. we're talking about authoritarianism and dictatorship, and fealty, all these weird other things that are not even the same as when you were sort of, you are on the right of the republican party in congress. >> elie, back when i was in congress, part of the tea party wave, you didn't like me much back then, and i understood it. but because i was right, probably too far right on the issues. and you would have me on your show, and we would debate and argue those issues. this is a left, right thing. you nailed it in your talk today. one of america's two major political parties has become an authoritarian embracing cult. that's the headline, that's the fear. this has nothing to do with left, right on the issues. this has everything to do with republican voters and we don't talk about them enough, ali. we talk about trump all the time, but the republican base wants an authoritarian. they want a dictator. they tell me that every single day. >> jen, let's explore that a little bit. it doesn't seem logical that anybody would want that, but we've seen in history, it happens. most dictators in history didn't overthrow a government, they were brought in and then just stayed in power, which is pretty much what donald trump's advertising, right? just vote me and, i will take care of the rest. why is that not as alarming as it sounds to the three of us? >> because people are diluted into thinking he is their champion, that they have been wrong and somehow stuff has been taken away from them. america has changed in some nefarious fashion and he's going to champion them and, quote, real americans, and put them back in charge. he is going to be the retribution and unfortunately, some people, to some people, that is very appealing. they don't look upon government as a problem solver, they don't look at government as the entity that is responsible for improving peoples lives. they look at it as a way of channeling their primal anger, the resentment, and even their hatred for some aspects of american society. so, you are right in seeing, and -- absolutely right, eventually this does come back to the voters and we can bemoan that many in the mainstream press, unlike you, are not alarmed enough, are not taking this seriously enough or treating this like just another election. but ultimately, it's the republican voters that, despite all evidence to the contrary, thinks he's going to be a fit, competent, great president, and so, we are on this gliding path at the very least we're going to have trump, i think, as the gop nominee. and when he does not win, god willing, we are going to see violence the likes of which we didn't even see on january 6th. >> joe, let's go back to this whole idea because you, your whole thing in the last decade or so has been engaging people, right? that's why when you and i shared no views on anything, you'd always be on my show and we'd always argue. now that you're sort of out of the republican party and you're out of that mainstream, you continue to maintain dialogue with these voters. right? these people you're talking about. is there any reason with them? is there any talking to them? do they get any of this stuff and do they discounted as bluster that shouldn't be taken seriously? >> ali, in general, no. but with some of them, eventually, yes. and by the way, again, just props to you, ali, because you have been sounding this alarm about authoritarianism from the beginning. thank you for that. i still engage with the republican party base because i come from the base. they have given up on democracy. they have given up on the democratic process. like, they've got the america, in their mind, that they want back. they don't believe the normal democratic process can get it back for them. hence, they want a strongman. but ali, when i talk to them, what i find is when i can just respectfully but repeatedly put nuggets of truth in front of them, like the election wasn't stolen, and you keep going down that road with them, eventually, the light bulb will go off, for some of them. but i'm afraid to say, for most of them, it's almost mission impossible right now. >> there was axios reporting, jennifer, about what's really interesting that the picks, the possible cabinet picks, i find some of that amazing. the idea that somebody thinks jared kushner maybe should be the secretary of state or a guy like kash patel, who's the guy who said that, you know, they're going to jail journalists or go after them, i mean, it's almost like a joke. it's like, was this leak that's a joke? because this can't actually be a cabinet. but if you decide it is not about ability, it's about loyalty, i guess this could be, and that's worrisome. >> yes and all of these people were in some position, by and large, during the first administration. they were simply and lower positions. so, they will come before congress to say, look at all the experience again. john ratcliffe was the head of the defense intelligence agency. people like stephen miller was in the white house. jeffrey clark was in the justice department. john mcafee worked in the white house. so, it's not like these people are pulled out of left field. they were in the first administration. they were simply lower down the food chain in some instances, so that adults, by and large, could keep a hold on them. but frankly, there will be no adults in the next administration. they will either be under investigation, audit, or in jail. these people will now rise to the top and we know from their rhetoric, from their, really, contempt for certain aspects of american society and certain americans, that they will not respect the rule of law, that they will not be held. they don't care what people like you and i and joe walsh say about them. they are in their own world, entirely loyal to trump. and so, this is absolutely frightening and this is what happens, by the way, with dictators that slowly, their circle titans, so that only the most loyal, the most supplicant, the most die hard and extreme voices surround him. everyone else has been weeded out, and so, there is no break. there is no tripwire on the way to totalitarianism. and frankly, with the supreme court that we have, that's so extreme and so deferential to executive power, there won't even be a court that will stop it. >> i want you to both stick around. we will take a quick break, we will come back on the other side. joe walsh and joe -- are seeing with meat. you are watching velshi on msnbc. i on msnbc. >> back with me to continue our conversation is a former republican congressman, joe walsh, and jennifer reuben, an opinion writer for the washington post and msnbc political analyst. jennifer, let me ask you about, we talk a little bit about the republican base and what it would take to convince them. but the description that joe gave us sounds like that would take a lot of work and take a long time, doesn't sort of fit into the paradigm of a campaign. what about that little group in the middle, who we ran into, say things like, i don't, know joe biden's a little old, i'm not sure about the economy? which is weird, because the economy is doing very well. you know, trump didn't, you know, he's not going to do the stuff. he said this last time, he's blustering. there is a small group of people upon whom this election may hinge. how do they get convinced without sounding alarmist that this is actually very serious, jen? >> well, we can start by the rest of the press doing what you are doing, ali, which is to talk park-y, to explain what the stakes are. this is not about some obvious policy differences between the two parties. it's not about if joe biden's age and frankly, i would like to see donald trump ride a bike or jog down the street. this is really about the mental, moral fitness of someone, and whether we want someone dedicated to democracy who has faults, who has problems, who hasn't done everything perfectly. or whether we want someone who sets out to destroy american democracy. this is a very big issue and we should stop getting distracted on small items, on whether or not, you know, joe biden, who's three years older than donald trump, is too old, or whether people think the economy is bad, even though it's good. this is nonsense and it's a distraction, and the press needs to do its job. we are beginning to see that, frankly, a lot of it comes on the editorial side with people like my colleague, bob pagan, who's letting, you know, setting out the stakes. so, they need to do a better job. but frankly, it takes all of us. all of us and all of you out there watching this have a network of people that you can talk to, that you can reason with. you have people who are in your facebook groups or inner social groups, your church, at your synagogue, and you can talk to them, and you can explain that nothing else matters if we wind up in this chaotic, theocratic, and totalitarian society. so, it's going to take all of us. it's going to take the press doing their job, it's going to take democrats running an effective campaign, and it's going to take ordinary citizens getting organized. the book that i wrote that you've been nice to mention a couple of times was about how women got together in 2018 because they saw what donald trump was doing. and they put together organizations like indivisible. they've got to go back to those organizations, they've got to create new ones, they've got to rev up the ones that are there, and turn out the vote, get young people to vote, and really to spread the message. this is about your future freedom as an american. this is about what kind of america we want to live in. and until we kind of focus on the, we are going to be at risk. >> so, joe, again, this was right back to your specialty because you committed some years ago to saying, i'm going to just have the uncomfortable difficult, hard conversations with people who are in my circle -- we've all got people in her circles of trust who do not share our political views on this. but everything that happens in the world makes us think we are -- this, right? the current war in israel an it's not a matter of let's discuss this. it's on everybody to their quarters and be really mad at everybody else. we are not getting better at this. you are doing it. i think jen's point is really valid, right? we all know somebody with whom we can have this discussion. maybe we need to model that i like. we need to sit there and say, let's have an honest conversation because i think some people throughout their hands and said, we're not talking about this. >> yeah and ali, her mind everybody, your audience and everybody, donald trump almost won in 2020. donald trump barely lost. look, i a conservative would like to get rid of the electoral college. it's not going to happen. trump lost by just a few thousand votes in 3 to 4 states. he could easily win again and you rightly identified, i think, a lot of lower information voters in the middle, and i talk to these folks all the time as well, ali, they think the republican party, a bunch of jerks, a bunch of ash holes, that's what they tell me. but they also tell me that the democratic party also that would understand that. the democratic party looks down on them. these people need to be reached and i think the democratic party, democrats need to do a much better job of talking to these people. ali, we live in a populist moment. you may think that is bad, some people may think it's bad, but we are in a populist moment in america, republicans have used this moment to deliver bad, evil things to people. but the democrats don't understand this populist moment and they need to, or they're going to lose a lot of these people in the middle, who are angry, and you need to talk to them. >> well, both of you are people who engage and you always have, and i'm grateful to that. i've had conversations with both of you at times when we have not agreed on topics and may we continue to have conversations with each other when we do not agree on topics. i respect you both for all that you've done. republican, former republican congressman joe walsh in illinois and jennifer reuben, an opinion writer at the washington post and msnbc political analyst. there's a new development in the case of kate cox, a 31-year-old mother of two who was forced to beg a texas court for an emergency abortion, when she discovered that her fetus had a fatal genetic condition. late yesterday, the texas supreme court temporarily halted an order that would've allowed her to get an abortion. it's a reversal of a previous lower court ruling that found that she did meet the medical requirements to obtain an abortion, even under texas's restrictive ban. cox's doctor warned that her health and her ability to have more children would be at risk if she did not terminate the pregnancy. but texas republican attorney general, ken paxton, doesn't seem to care. threatening to prosecute any hospital that performs and abortion and asking the state supreme court to intervene. so, at the very moment, thanks to the texas supreme court and ken paxton, kate cox is being forced to go through with a nonviolent full pregnancy that is threatening her health and her fertility. tomorrow morning, we're going to dig into this case with democratic congressman, -- of texas. joining us at 10 am eastern only on msnbc. we will be right back. n msnbc. we will be right back. we will be right back. 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(avo) this holiday turn any samsung phone, in any condition, into a galaxy s23+ on us. and now add netflix and max to your plan for just $10 a month. save big this holiday. only on verizon. right now across the u.s., people are trying to ban books from public schools and public libraries. yes, libraries. we all have a first amendment right to read and learn different viewpoints. that's why every book belongs on the shelf. yet book banning in the u.s. is worse than i've ever seen. it's people in power who want to control everything. well, i say no to censorship. and i say yes to freedom of speech and expression. if you do too, please join us in supporting the american civil liberties union today. for over 100 years, the aclu has fought for your rights and mine. including the right to read all manner of books. so please call or go online to myaclu.org. for just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day. you can become a guardian of liberty and help protect all the rights promised to us by the u.s. constitution. make no mistake, this move to ban books is a coordinated attack on students right to learn. this is a clear violation of free speech. that's why the aclu is working to fight against censorship in all its forms. it is so important now more than ever. so please call or go to myaclu.org and become an aclu guardian of liberty, for just $19 a month. use your credit card and you'll get this special we the people t-shirt and more to show you're helping to protect the rights of all people. the aclu is in all 50 states, d.c. and puerto rico defending our first amendment right of free speech and all of your constitutional rights. because we the people, means all of us. so please, call or, go online to myaclu.org today. there's a deal on the subway app. buy one footlong, get one 50% off in the subway app today. now that's a deal worth celebrating. man, what are you doing?! get it before it's gone on the subway app. ♪♪ >> humanitarian operations in the gaza strip of come to that israel's broadened campaign out enters its third month. on thursday, the united nations humanitarian chief announced, quote, we do not have a humanitarian operation in southern gaza that can be called by that name anymore. tens of thousands of displaced palestinian civilians are now crammed into two tiny patches of land. one is along the coastline, the other is on the border city in the south. but you one has slammed these sites as poorly planned solution who's overcrowded and unsanitary conditions make them ripe for spreading disease and hunger. condions at the sites have deteriorated to the point where there is one toilet for every 600 people, according to one report. as a result, the world health organization warns that more palestinians could soon die from disease than from israeli bombs. meanwhile, on thursday, israel announced it would open a second crossing into gaza. it's restricted to inspections for incoming humanitarian aid only. on friday, nearly 57,000 pell pounds worth of u.s. aid for gazans was delivered to egypt, but you and officials warned that israel's bombing campaign, coupled with endless displacement, have made the humanitarian situation even more dire. on monday, you want humanitarian chief, lynn hastings, stress that, quote, the conditions required to deliver aid to the people of gaza do not exist. and quote. israel response to that statement, by the way, was to revoke her visa. meanwhile, the primary human agency that facilitates humanitarian assistance for all of gaza is just barely operating, according to its head. in a letter posted to ex, he warned, quote, our staff take their children to work, so they know they're safe. or can die together. i've never written such a letter, predicting the killing of myself and the collapse of the mandate i'm expected to fulfill, and quote. the war has resulted in more than 17,000 deaths from 70% being women and children, according to the gaza health ministry. nbc cannot independently verify those numbers. on thursday, secretary of state antony blinken informed israel that casualties are still unacceptably high. and untraditional sign of growing rift between the united states and its longtime ally, american officials this week began discussing postwar governance plans, with palestinian authority officials, and regional arab allies. the talks come on the heels of netanyahu rejecting the return of the palestinian authority, which administers some of the occupied west bank and used to administer gaza. with more on this, i'm joined by diana gucci, the former spokesperson for the palatine liberation organization. she is also the former legal adviser for the palestinian president, mahmoud abbas. diana, good to see you, my friend. thank you for being with us. you know, i was talking to -- an hour ago and she was saying, this conversation about what happens next is very hard to have until there is a cease-fire, and and to what's going on in gaza, and that's valid. however, people like you and her have been thinking about this for a very long time and there is an obvious question about, what does happen next? specifically, as it relates to palestinians. who speaks for them and how is that established? what's your thought on that? >> in a way, she's right, actually, she is right. it's impossible to be able to determine what the future looks like. we don't know what tomorrow is going to look like, but that said, i think it is very important for the first time for the world to actually listen to palestinians and to have us decide who our leaders are, rather than the west side or the israelis decide who our leaders are. and i say this because before october the 7th, mahmoud abbas, the president, had been largely irrelevant to u.s. administration and now we are in a state where they're asking him to -- where he has not been able to effectively rule in the west bank. so, the idea of them asking him to step in and rule in gaza, where his popularity is very little, where he abandoned gaza many, many years ago, is ridiculous. this is why it is so vitally important for palestinians to be choosing our own leaders and to be choosing, then telling the world what it is that we're going to look like. but the precondition to that is not only a cease-fire, but an ironclad guarantee that palestinians are going to finally be free, not living in yet another situation, military occupation, where israel can come in and do whatever he pleases, whatever he pleases. >> i want to ask you about this because when we talk about gaza, i see a lot of things on social media, i'm about a day away from just quitting, that say, why don't these gazans just kick hamas out? why don't they change it? you know, i often say the russians get rid of putin, they know that he's harming their existence, but it speaks to an issue of agency, right? you lived in gaza, i believe before or just one hamas took power. the average gazan doesn't have a great deal of agency about who the government is, at the moment. >> correct, you're absolutely right. i did live in gaza and you are right, they don't have a lot of agency. the reason is that we have an election in 2006, in those general elections in 2006, hamas won the election and even though they won the election, thef the world said, we're not going to recognize this election. they didn't allow hamas to rule. this is what led to the separation between -- the major ruling party and hamas, which is the party that runs the gaza strip. and so, it's this idea that people who are now in their 30s, they've never had a chance to vote in any of the elections. and so, there has not been agency given to palestinians because every time there is a demand for election, the demand becomes, you either choose the people that we want you to choose, or you're not going to have the election. that is obviously not a recipe for the future. this is why it's so vitally important for people to finally listen to us and the one thing, the one message that they should be taking away is that palestinians deserve their freedom and they deserve the right to choose our own leaders, not have leaders imposed on us from the outside. >> you and i have known each other for many, many years. you and i were in israel together, where you lived. you and i were in the west bank together and we met. civil society leaders, you know, people who would build society. tell me about what that looks like right now because there's a rule that saying, are there people who are leaders? there are several that are jailed, their references -- who consistently polls higher than existing palestinian authority leaders. give me a sense of that. what does that look like to you and is barr booty a name that americans should start to become familiar with? >> well, when we look at palestinian leadership, it's important keep in mind that israel has either imprisoned them, as is the case with marwan barghouti, or they've assassinate them and there is no, there hasn't been an ability for palestinians to be able to choose their own leaders. looking at civil society, you can see that when it comes to the civil society spectrum, that even there, we've seen that israel has labeled these organizations as somehow terrorist, even though nobody around the world recognizes this. and so, even then, we see an attempt of the israelis to try to choose palestinian leaders. should people become more familiar with the name marwan barr booty? mosty. but i think they should become more familiar with the palestinian cause and it's cause for freedom, it's a cause for palestinians demanding that they not live under israel's boot any longer, but that we have the ability to choose our own leaders, whether that's in the realm of political leaders, civil society leaders, or any spectrum around. and that's the missing element is that there is always an attempt to somehow choose the leaders for us or to kill them, or to imprison them. there hasn't been this idea that palestinians get to be free. they had to choose their own leadership, they get to do as a police, and instead, it's always a question of appeasing israel rather than appeasing palestinians. >> good to see you again, thank you for being with us. the antibodies of former spokesperson for the palestinian liberation association. right after -- got but velshi banned book club. our feature this morning, the perks of being a wall flower by stephen chbosky. one of those books that stays with you. readers revisit -- protects charlie and his friends again and again. take a look at thipho of one banned book club member well worn and beloved copy. she wrote to us explaining the immense effect this book has had on her life. quote, a photo of my copy of the book from nearly 20 years ago. as you can see, the book is frayed and falling apart, evident of the countless times i have come back to read this most important impactful piece of literature. empathy, compassion, perspective, taking and ability for nearly every used to identify with some aspect of isolation, belonging, and the human experience. even for those kids who seemingly have it all. all. all. summer in portugal with some help from j.p. morgan wealth plan. let's go whiskers. jen y is working with a banker to budget for her birthday. you only turn 30 once. and jen z? her credit's golden. hello new apartment. three jens getting ahead with chase. solutions that grow with you. one bank for now. for later. for life. chase. make more of what's yours. >> charlie is entering high school alone. his best friend, michael, has committed suicide. he writes his thoughts, his fears, and updates in letters addressed only to a dear friend. soon, the, charlie meets sam, a caring and magnetic high school senior with an undeserving reputation and her inviting stop brother, patrick, cruz harboring a secret relationship with the quarterback of the football team. together, patrick, sam, and charlie create an island on their own. they help charlie find his footing and then find himself. today's velshi banned book club feature is, the perks of being a wildflower, by steven chbosky. the perks of being a wildflower honestly grapples with adolescent anguish, the numbing pain of a close death, finding yourself under pressure to conform, the generational toll that sexual abuse takes within a family. but at its core, its story about the power of friendship. sam and patrick offer charlie the city ground to find themselves. they're sheltered in the storm that is the typical pain of high school and the additional trauma that charlie faces. they helped charlie understand the book's most famous line and most enduring message, quote, we accept the love we think we deserve. friendship in the pages of this book is life or death. admittedly, the perks of being a wealth tower is one of those books that's not so easily summarized. the themes that the buck addresses are dark and heavy, but it doesn't read that way. the perks of being a wildflower's sweet, it's poignant. that is high school, that is adolescents, the painful meeting of a meeting of adulthood and lingering childhood naivety, teenage feelings. it's not easy to strike that note right at the crossroads of these three things, but scherbenske does that again and again in the book. the result is a book that is so specific in its story, with its frequent 90s cultural references and it's nuanced characters, that feels infinitely universal. the books power is in its ability to reach so many people. the perks of being a wildflower masterfully utilizes outside elements as windows into the characters, including carefully placed literature. the reader sees charlie's growth and change through the many beloved novels that his english teacher assigned him. quote, i finish to kill a mockingbird and it's not my favorite book of all-time. but then again, i always think that until i read another book. charlie reads peter pan, the great gets we, a separate piece, the catcher in the right, on the road, the fountainhead. patrick, grappling with his sexuality in his first love, is given the mayor of castro street. charlie's brother says, his new girlfriend's favorite book is walden by henry david thoreau. like many of the books i just named, the perks of being a lot of our has been targeted for ban again and again, nearly every year since its initial publication in 1999. i don't need to say why. every detail that makes this book emotionally resonant and culturally ephemeral and necessary are the same details that get it banned. there are terrible things that happen in the pages of this book. suicide, rape, sexual assault, anti lgbtq degradation, but they are the things that happened in real life off the page. when we decided to feature the perks of being a wildflower on the velshi banned book club, our literary producer said that she wished someone had given her a copy when her friend committed suicide in high school. books can save a life and help those who have been left behind carry on. right after the break, i'm joined by stephen chbosky, author of the new york times bestseller, the perks of being a wallflower, and the director of the movie adaptation with more than 5 million copies in print and the distinction as one of the best young adult novels of all time. the perks of being a wall fire is one of the biggest books that we've ever featured on the velshi banned book club. don't miss this conversation. t miss this conversation what is cirkul? cirkul is the fuel you need to take flight. cirkul is the energy that gets you to the next level. cirkul is what you hope for when life tosses lemons your way. cirkul. it's your water, your way. >> get out your book. the velshi banned book club is starting right now. i want to welcome stephen chbosky to the velshi banned book club, author of the perks of being a wallflower. steven, great to see you. thank you so much. >> thank you, thank you for having me. >> thank you for being here. you know, this book is full of references, 90s references, which i highly appreciate. one of them has mentioned been mentioned again and again. the song asleep by the smiths. ostensibly, the book and the song explore some of the same things, including loneliness and death and desire. tell me about the mechanisms that you use. the literature in the songs. >> well, you know, i remember the one thing about being young, i wrote the book when i was 26. finished it when i was 28, and so, music, as we all know, when you're a young person, it becomes part of the identity that you form. you find that book that speaks you or you find that song or that band, and as your piecing together this mosaic that ultimately becomes your adult identity, these cultural touchstones are everything,. and so, i was just writing about myself. that particular song, i cannot tell you how many times i drove through the -- tunnel in pittsburgh listening to that song. when morrissey, who i met by the way, fantastic individual who is a real treat to me, when he sings, you know, there's another world, there's a better world, there must be, even though he's actually saying about suicide, the music is so beautiful, i didn't take it that way. and so, that song, and that particular line in those lights at the -- tunnel and seeing downtown, that's forever adolescents for me. >> why is it so universal when you have such specific references that i understand very well? and yet, this book, you're coming up to 25th anniversary on it. what's the answer? why is this book the book that people email had sent ellis about that they've got their tattered copies of, that became a movie that everybody knows about? >> well, i think for a lot of people, this song itself doesn't particularly matter. but the listening to it and the drive with those friends and that moment where you are seeing the lights on the buildings and everything that makes you wonder, the dream of adolescence is forever, and that's universal. the longing of being young, and i've seen many, many movies movies about this well. i've read about this extensively and that's what it is. the cultural references, they change, like bands come in and out of favor, singers change. it doesn't particularly matter. the connection we feel to those particular people and those particular songs is forever. it will never change. that goes back hundreds and hundreds of years when a person first made a piece of music, that brings us closer to everything that makes life worth living. >> one of the things we talk about with authors, particularly who write for young adults, is the degree to which they feel that their writing has influenced young people. influence is an important thing, but sometimes, it saves people. sometimes, people get seen. you've got a pile of letters there. some of them are 15 plus years old. these are letters from who? >> these are letters, i cherish these. basically, over the years, as you said, my book was published 25 years ago next month and over the years, i've received letters from young people that said that they were going to commit suicide and they read the book or in some cases, the movie, and they found it, and then they decided to choose life, basically. every time i go and i talk about whether it's the book or the movie or banning, or any of these issues, i bring it with me because i want to remind myself always -- >> that's what it's for. >> if you say 5 million copies, lovely, good for me, yay. as an author. it's the people that actually read it, it's the people that it reached, it's the people that it helped. because i wrote it for my own personal reasons, this book save me, in a lot of ways, as i was writing it. and then i published it, hoping to help people find a blueprint to heal, whatever it is they've gone through. and so, i bring these letters to remind myself what it's all about. >> can you read from one of them for us? >> i would happily read one of them. this is from a young woman and it says, mr. chbosky, i really hope you read this. if not, that whoever is reading it, thanks for doing so. i had to write to someone who i didn't know. i guess a little info about me is needed, so you get a mental picture of me. i'm 15 and the youngest junior at my school. i'm not one of those popular kids. i've always found refuge among people who actually cared for me and such. i have a younger brother, he just turned 14, and i have a mom. i used to have a dad, but he died november 5th, 2008, i guess i have to put a name -- i will skip her name for her privacy. literally, the point of this is, i can finally say what i've been thinking and feeling. i just finished the perks of being a wildflower, it maybe think about so many things. it gave me a sense of hope. i was lost and confuse for so long, when my dad died and left me to face life alone. things snapped, i started doing things i wish i had never done to myself, the scars that burned social vividly. i'm so ashamed because of them, last night, i had written letters to the people i love about how sorry i was that i was leaving them, that i had to because i felt like a burden on everyone around me, that it's been a hard day since my dad died, he promised he would seem graduate. that's why hate promises, they're always broken. back to the letters. they sit neatly organize on the desk now. i feel like i've -- everyone because i planned on killing myself today. i was so ready to swallow the pills and just let my heart give out, but reading the perks of being a lot of our gave me a reason to not kill myself. it made me think about everything, my favorite part was the last page about being alive in the tunnel. it made me realize that there was a goal for me. i'd always gone through life as if i were sleeping, but my goal is to find that moment where i feel like i'm actually living. so, really, what i'm trying to say is, thank you for creating such a wonderful book. thank you for giving me reason and a goal to keep going. if i hadn't read your book one night, i would be cold and dead right now. i read this in pan because i'm definite about what i'm saying. thank you for giving me the chance to do so, eternally grateful. she says her name, which i will not say. psq, think by that can seat my determination to keep living? i really hope so. >> wow. so, 5 million bucks doesn't matter? the movie doesn't matter? that matters. someone is alive because you wrote that book. >> yeah, and because she read it. let's give her a lot of credit. >> because you read it and because she was able to read it. >> that's right. >> someone didn't stop her from doing it. there's a circle to the whole discussion about why we have a banned book club. why not let somebody read that? isn't that enough evidence that these books should not be banned? >> i couldn't agree more. it is literally a matter of life and death. you know, it's funny, over the years because i made the american library socialist many, many times, -- >> these are the most handbooks? >> yeah, most banned books list and, you know, i've been asked, oh, isn't it a badge of honor? no. to me, it's not. >> it's not a goal. >> at all. it's like yes, i've literally been banned in boston, you gotta mean? i'm not bragging about. that to me, it's all about the next kid. you never know what book because, you know, perks is just one of them. there are many of the -- judy blume, jon green, up and down the line that reads people and you never know where the next case. what i tried to tell parents that are maybe trying to ban the book, the best of my ability, i read a letter sometimes, if i'm told about this early enough to say, look, not every parent has the time. not every parent maybe is as involved no kids lives as you are. you know, give them a chance. you don't know who that kids and that's why i'm on your show, that's why i thank you for having this club, is because i just wanted to let people know. it literally is a matter of life and death, and to take that seriously. >> where are we right now? this, as you've noticed, you've been banned a lot. it seems to be getting worse. >> i think absolutely. ever since i would say, obviously, the pandemic and all the isolation just put every bit of mental health on alert, as we all know. i'm sure you've reported about that many, many times. but it also has hyper charged a lot of anger and vitriol, and people that just want to stand up ideas or voices that they may not agree with. you know, a lot of parent groups usually on the right, i should say, always on the right, they have targeted my book and others, because they just don't like some of the characters, some of the things that they're going through. and i think that on some level, it's a shame that i'm doing it to be titillating or to be this, no. i'm writing about it because it is a reality and i would much rather a kid find themselves in a book, knowing that i really care about their well-being, and i want them to do great. i want them to have a great life. and i don't know, it is a shame. i don't know why people are as angry as they are. but to me, the book banning, the some of the stuff you are talking about earlier in the show about the democracy, this is a canary in the coal mine. we all know it. there's so much historical evidence as such and so, it's very troubling. >> that's exactly what it. it's stephen, great to make. you thank you showing some of that correspondents with us. we appreciate that. stephen chbosky is the award winning author of the book, the perks of being a wallflower. to any members of the velshi banned book club or anyone watching right now, if you're feeling isolated or depressed, or experiencing a crisis of some kind, you are not alone. there are people who can help, you can dial the number 988. the 988 suicide crisis lifeline provides 24/7 confidential help. if you or your loved ones should ever needed. alex witt picks up our news coverage right after a quick break. coverage right after a quick 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