onlyfans we have thrown out? >> what does it take to get kicked out of congress? >> representative perry contacted the white house in the weeks after january 6th to seek a presidential pardon. >> tonight on the eve of an expulsion vote, the santos mascot messier. >> my colleague wants to come up here and call me a crook. same colleague who is accused of being a woman beater. >> and what we just learned about the fbi seizure of another congressman's phone. then, >> i did everything right in the indicted me. >> hours after his latest attack, donald trump's gag to get a new york. and why it's not enough to beat the republican front-runner while supporting another candidate behind closed doors. >> i'm not saying i'm all for nikki haley. i'm from beating donald trump. >> when all in starts, right now. >> good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. we made it on the precipice of the end of the congressional career of one john george santos. tomorrow the new york republican will face his third expulsion vote in less than a year inoffice. it has to be some kind of record. there have been key developments since the last vote failed at the beginning of the month. remember, it's a two thirds vote. that was ethics deter me committee released a report saying found substantial evidence that santos violated federal law, divided he's own donors, and used campaign donations toenrich himself personally. he spending it on resort, stays luxury goods, tox, in the website onlyfans. that comesin addition to the 23 countedal indictment filed against the congressman in october the charges him with conspiracy, wire fraud, making false statements, falsifying records, credit card fraud, identity theft, and theft of public funds. and even beyond all that, george santos is just an enormous embarrassment to his party and to the institution of congress as he walks the halls of congress people cringing. he's a ludicrous figure wrapped up on her web of ridiculous scandals and lies. >> a local news website is reporting a disabled veteran is calling out congressman george santos, claiming the lawmakers scammed him out of $3,000 for his dying dogs lifesaving surgery. >> nyu goldman sachs and citi group say they have no record of santos despite being listed on his campaign biography. >> santos didn't go to college. did not play for baruch's championship volleyball team, nor did for santos get to knee replacements because of his vaunted volleyball career playing their. >> i always joke his friends in circles even in the campaign and say guys, i'm jew-ish. i was raised catholic. >> there's no evidence that your mother ever worked at the world trade center. at all. >> did you know that congressman george santos also claims he was the target of an assassination attempt which required him being put under official police protection. >> bloomberg reported the george santos bragged to donors in 2021 that he was a producer on the infamous spider-man broadway musical. >> and i do republican congressman george santos was seen leaving a colleagues office carrying a mysterious baby, and when he was asked of the baby was he as he replied, not yet. [laughter] >> okay, there's obviously a lot of evidence to suggest george santos probably shouldn't be a member of the united states congress. but the biggest reason he's facing the real threat of expulsion tomorrow, the third try, is that it is politically expedient for a certain wing of the u of the republican party, the house of qantas, there are five members who want to keep their seats in districts joe biden wants. it would be a good idea them, for all the republicans and moderate districts, to distance themselves from santos. it is a show of independents from the republican party line vote to get rid of them of him, but it doesn't cost him anything. it doesn't crossed on a trump, so it's an easy win. it's important remember the george santos is a member of congress because of donald trump. and of trump base. he had nothing to do with politics before becoming a die ha trump fan. he found grassroots group supporng then-president's reelection campaign, and then after trump and santos lost her 2020 like shuns race sandals claim the elections were stolen attended trump speech on the morning of january 6th and rode the maga train to victory last year and opposed to the republican nominations. he's a trump guy. and of course all the qualities that make that guy, george santos, so embarrassing, are the same ones exhibited by the likely republican presidential nominee, the leader of the republican party, donald trump. the constant compulsive lying, the pathological need for attention no matter how negative, the total disregard for the rule of law, but santos is just one particularly colorful side of the maga wing. congressman jeremy raskin told me he would vote to expel santos this time after previously voting no. how santos compares to the maga king and his defenders. >> the logic for my vote last time was we don't want to set a precedent where people be are being expelled without either criminal conviction in federal or state court or else an ethics finding that they have engaged in serious misconduct that we can judge once we are reading the report. the only argument i can torture out for him now is that all of the lies he told, which he certainly did tell, and the evidence is overwhelming, do not add up to donald trump's big lie, which still a majority the republican caucus stands by. >> it's a good point. 147 republican members of congress voted to overturn the 2020 election. almost all of them are still in office. some of the most active coup plotters, people who labored intensely on behalf of thpl to end american constitutional governance, a plot implicad now into different sorts of criminal charges. to deny the people of this country the right to choose their leader, the most fundamental right, those people remain in that conch caucus. in some ways you wouldn't even recognize some of them. like the sky. we've talked about him before, but this is scott perry of pennsylvania. by many accounts he was one of the most central coup plotters and all of congress. it was perry that introduced donald trump to jeffrey clark. that's the low level official at the department of who supported trump's claim the election was stolen. the january six committee revealed that perry even brought clark to the white house to meet trump in late december, 2020. trump considered firing the attorney general jeff rosen and replace him with clark in order to use the department of justice to steal the election. this was a perry, trump, clark, plot. peru is a focus of the january six investigation, when she must've subpoenaed 88 nord. last summer the fbi seized perry's phone, and jack smith has also sought information from perry since he took over the federal investigation. a new court filing that case harevealed a slew of damning text messages when congressman perry said to jeffrey clark and many others in the trump orbit in the wake of the 2020 election. in the midst of the effort to elevate clark to top of the doj where he could set up that justice doesn't know if thet o ballots are legit, perry texted him, quote, you are the man, i have confirmed it. god does what he does for a reason. between the end of december in january 5th, 2021, congressman perry also texted former doj colleague and embraced a plan to have zan a vice president mike pence, quote, at admit testimony prior to the counting of electoral votes on january six. pre-agreed to tell the idea was a cop to trump, pence and trump advisor john, eastman but pay perry later alert alerted him that -- he will not allow access. yet that guy, scott perry, the cool blotter, remains a member of congress in good standing. in fact, tomorrow he's going to stand inside the house and vote on whether to expel george santos from that body. congressman robert garcia is democrat of california, he submitted the original privilege motion to expel george santos, and he joins me now. i guess my first question to you is, what is different this time around? if it's going to be the third vote even under a year, i've watched some of the debates he will get into, but what difference does the ethics report make? >> i think for a lot of people it makes a big difference. i think it's very clear from the report that it's what the republicans and democrats ask for. the evidence is damning, it's overwhelming. but we know that in the last vote we had some democrats ready to expel, and they united will be ready to expel tomorrow. a good segment of republicans chose to expel. that number has probably doubled. we expect by tomorrow there will be enough votes to expel george santos from the congress. let's remember also the report in detail the large importante tail, dozens of witnesses, thousands of papers and documents, intensive research done by incredible bipartisan staff. and the report was unanimous and bipartisan by every member of that committee. equal democrats and equal republicans. we are ready to expel george santos and, his time is up. >> you have taken a lead on this for much of this year. there's one other members of congress, especially the new york democrat delegate delegates like, torres, and you've been heading this up. why does it matter to you? what is it to you, congressman garcia, whether jury santos is in congress or not? >> look, first, i'm an immigrant. i became a u.s. citizen in my early twenties. when i took the oath of office it meant. something i believe in the constitution in the country, in the privilege of serving the congress. and george santos is completely defiled his oath and goes against everything that i believe this country is about. and chris, a right. donald trump created the mess that we are in. they were not be george santos without donald trump. and liars in congress like donald trump and george santos need to be taken on every single time. you cannot be quiet and sit back and allow these folks to destroy our institutions, to destroy our democracy and make a joke of u.s. congress. it's personally not important to me, it's also the right thing to do. we can't allow these folks to go on lie, and be members of this body. >> george santos said he was gonna devote himself either way to making sure that donald trump did come back into office, connecting himself. take a listen to what he had to say today. >> the future use and those. you just never know. you can do whatever you want next. i'm just gonna do whatever i want. whatever comes my way, i have the desire to stay very much involved in public policy and advocacy for specific issues. we also have an entire presidential campaign coming up in 2024. i think i've made this very clear but i won't rest in till's icy don trump back in the white house. >> he's gonna have a trial he's going to face. i don't think it's going to quite be a wide open book for congressman santos, depending on what happens tomorrow. even if he doesn't get expelled. >> the chances of donald trump and george santos being in prison is highly likely. santos should be focusing on his court case. he's got a huge amount of indictments as we know, very serious criminal indictments. and donald trump does as well. they're both part of the same problem for the extreme maga wing of the republican party. george santos is part of the cancer in congress. i am rallying our members, republican and democrat, to vote to expel him tomorrow. he's probably sitting in court for jail he'll have been having no time to be campaigning for donald trump. >> congressman robert garcia, hammering the trump santos prison pearlite, we'll see what comes of that. we will be watching that vote very closely tomorrow. you sound -- and we will see what happens. tomorrow thank you very much, congressman. >> thank you. >> former federal prosecutor who actually served as senior investigative counsel on the january six committee and he joins me now. the scott perry stuff is fascinating as it was a filing in a federal court that was accidentally posted and taken down, is i understand it, of a bunch of evidence, and it just gives a little more texture to how central it was. but as someone who worked on that committee, how central was scott perry to the plot? >> the committee was focused on him. they had some messages like event to mark meadows for example the committee had evidence that he was in contact with jeffrey clark and involved in the plot to install him at the top of the tog but what we now know that we have direct evidence. less circumstantial, and it's more so much more clear. >> before it was like oh, we heard the perry was the one that introduced. now we've got a text like you're the guy. >> exactly. we had testimony from my former boss, donahue, so he had testimony about a conversation he had but this is his own words. frankly it's because doj has the kind of tools that we didn't have. i've been a professional investigator, it was a professional prosecutors, the latter is where the power. is prosecutors can come and see, 's forcibly, your phone. >> exactly. so it's a whole other level of power and i think jack smith is taking what we started with and going even further and deeper. >> to give a top line here from the political re again on those exchanges, court filing reveals perry's vast contacts in the 2020 election, description a numerous exchanges between perry and top trump officials including clark, mark meadows, i imagine you had on the committee but also senior adviser eric herschmann, director of national intelligence john ratcliffe, a former house colleague of perry. perry does seem in the top three of congressional plotters here, if i understand this right. >> i think that's right. i think with the evidence shows today is that he really wasn't orchestrator. he was not someone who is cheering from the sidelines. he was someone who put himself directly in the middle, and was fully active, from november forward, and was really kora, specially with this plan of perverting the doj and installing someone so they could do trump's bidding. >> that's what's so wild about this. members of congress all along the spectrum and george gordon of the white house staff like mike jackson, we're like we're gonna sign on this, but this specific plot, one of the most dangerous, which really would've been the kind, of light, constitutional crisis moment, it seems like it was maybe perry's brain child. i don't even understand how the dots got commented between jeffrey clark and perry at the white house. but he seems to be the one who is basically constituent element. >> he's directly in the middle, and he's the one that's bringing clark to meadows, really connecting clark to trump. we've seen the messages today. it's here in clark's mercedes to trump himself. i think one example of how core his efforts were, is the fact that he saw a pardon. the very fact that after jaime 60 looked at what he did and saw now that joe biden would be president and you have a doj that would actually enforce the law, and what he thought is, i need protection for when they find out what i did. i think it shows you the kind of culpability he has. >> and yet he has faced essentially no repercussions. i don't think there's any delivery repercussions. there's no criminal repercussions, although he did have his phone seized. although it seems he's not a target of the jacks mitt investigation. he also just blew off a congressional subpoena. you had tried to subpoena him and he said no one got away with it. >> he did. and jack smith has chosen to go the route of a night in just the former president leaving a lot of people under the fold. but i think it shows the american people, this is a multi step process for accountability. if we have the conviction of the former president, that is not staff the process. >> we should note that when you look at the case made in georgia, and perry is not one of the codefendants and that, but there are a bunch of people in that case suggests there are a colorable criminal cases, arguments to be made against people other than donald trump in this entire affair. >> exactly. and remember, to see someone's phone you have to go to a federal judge and find a probable cause, evidence of crimes are on that phone. that's how you get search warrants. they are finding through that are connecting scott perry to criminal conduct. i think this evidence -- and yes there may be political sensitivities about a criminal charge versus, against the sitting member. you look at george santos. he's a sitting member and he has been charged for extensive amount of fraud. but those frauds don't amount to -- part of the country, and that's what scott perry's unborn for involved in. here >> your point there about the federal prosecution of donald trump is not the end all, bill. it's about the end of any possible criminal prosecution of the plot. it's important to only keep that in the back of my head. temidayo aganga-williams, thank you. coming up, it was a plan to design to start a war. remarkable breaking news, new york 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brings so much joy to your life. a family trip to the team usa training facility. i don't know how to thank you. >> following some breaking i'm here to thank you. news this hour, a truly remarkable report out of the new york times about the extent about hamas's intentions to start a war ended the deadly october 7th attacks. quote, israeli officials obtained hamas's battle plan for the october 7th terrorist attack more than a year before it happened, documents, emails, and interviews show. israeli milirynd intelligence officials dismisseplan is aspirational, considering it too difficult for hamas to the approximately 40-page document, which the israeli authorities code named jericho wall, outlined, point by point, exactly the kind of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1200 people. according to one analyst in israel, this was not merely a plan for attack. it was a plan designed to start a war. ben rhodes served as deputy of security adviser to president barack obama. he joins me. now this is published just before we went to air, so i want to set the table for folks. it's not just that there's a battle plan, it's the battle plan. it involves things like paragliders going over the fans. it involves machine guns and drones to take out security cameras. it involves initiating with a barrage of rockets, motorcycles going over the fence. it's literally the plan. and they hand it inside the israeli intelligence apparatus. as someone who worked in the united states security apparatus, what is your reaction to this? >> it's absolutely astonishing, chris, because to your point, sometimes you have a warning that something might happen, but very rarely, if ever, do you have this level of specificity. before i was in the obama in administration i worked for the 9/11 commission. this would be analogous to the u.s. government having had information that al-qaeda was planning to trying to fly planes into these targets, from these airports, and had people in-flight schools, this was a level of specificity that intelligence almost never gets. that is what is so astonishing about this reporting. it wasn't just like concern that hamas might be up to something, might be trying to plan something big. you usually get those types of warnings, reflections and conversations were intercepted communication. this was the literal plan of what they actually acted out on october 7th, within the israeli system, for a full year. that is something that is an intelligence and policy failure that goes beyond anything i can think of. >> i was trying to search for something, some analog or precedent, it was coming up empty as well. there's another additional aspect to this, that in some ways is more damning, and that is then at least one analyst in the israeli system basically watched or saw that there was a rehearsal about six weeks before the attack and once again basically went to a superior and said it looks like they are rehearsing the plan that we have, jericho wall, and was again, according to the reporting we have a new york times, encrypted emails they have obtained, basically told, don't worry about it. >> yeah. so seeing the rehearsal. and the thing to bear in mind, we don't know how far up. questions remain. was this plan briefed to prime minister netanyahu or people who are government ministers? how high up to go in the system? i would be surprised, it would be weird if something of this scale wasn't. but that would be the own version of the failure. but in fact on october 7th when it happened is the idf they would normally be at the border had been redirected out to the west bank because they were busy protecting settlers, israeli settlers who were engaging in clashes with palestinians. it's on the border wasn't even at the normal status quo of security. it was less. that's the policy failure, to redirect the resources up the west bank. you would think that if you had this kind of planning and you are seeing these kind of activity by hamas, that we have additional warning from egypt another places about this potentially. so you would think you'd be trying to do everything you could to fortify that border and at least hedge against the back of this plan, if not actively disrupting it. none of that happened. >> we have sort of, as we have dealt with the aftermath of october 7th, and as americans tried to sort of figure out, you know, a way to understand, 9/11 has stood out as a touchstone for american domestic experience. the one of the ways that the reaction in the politics of israel's differ from the u.s. is that has not been a huge rallying around the idf in the war effort among israeli politics and public opinion, but not around benjamin netanyahu who has very low approval ratings. in recent polling he was only drawing 23, 24% of the vote. vote. you have to wonder what is doing to an extremely tenuous political position, in a situation in which netanyahu it is understood is going to face the music when the war ends but also has every political incentive imaginable to extend the war as far as possible, precisely because of this consensus view held across the ideological spectrum in israel that he will face the music when the war ends. >> that's right, chris. netanyahu has been a political survivor for a long time. he would become less popular because of corruption investigations, and certainly because of the crew he was engaged in. there were huge protests against netanyahu before october 7th. the one thing that he had was he's self given nickname is i am mr. security. you might not like my actions but i keep israel safe. that we shattered on october 7th. the acute accusations of the failure to protect, that political standings offers even more. i think, frankly, what is worrying is, precisely because he's in such a weak political position, the only thing that is keeping him in office is this emergency unity war cabinet that he is leading. the problem with that, the challenge in that, strategically and politically, and i think for the united states perspective is, as you said, that gives him every incentive to try to protect petra weight a war, because i think everybody in israel that i talked to, most analysts agree that when the music stops, he's going to be replaced. that's just the nature of israel politics right now. and that's an awkward position to be in, frankly. it's an uncomfortable position, particularly when you have a massive aid package with the u.s. congress, huge international opinion opinions gayle begins the military operation, all these things are happening, and this report comes, out he's very politically damaged leader in the question is, does he need to be replaced now? can israel afford to wait for some end of this military operation that has an open -- to it. he he has said we may have to have an open ended in administration of gaza, which means there's not a clear ending to this war from his perspective. >> all that he is, i think, really well said. one of the main sort of contextual issues here. to go back to your experience, and one of the things i thought about this again, from the first moment that the report started coming in of the scale of this attack and how famous in many ways the israeli intelligence and security apparatus is. it's one of the most sophisticated in the entire world. it's known as such. this question of how did this happen has been there from the first day. i also wondered will there be some 9/11 commission? is there going to be, and, this seems like, there's a lot of question raised by this. how far up to go? who is this colonel who said no? why did people think they weren't going to do? it how far did they circulate the reports that they were rehearsing, et cetera? >> my immediate reaction on october 7th, is how could this happen. because to give one example, israel controls the entire internet and tell our communications infrastructure in gaza. so sure, hamas can try to communicate off line, but the idea that you can plant something this sophisticated without it interacting with a telecommunications network, i just didn't get. that part of what we are seeing now is that they did have this information. to your, point what they have said is we will have to be some look at back at this. but again, what politicians do, i think netanyahu's approach has been that's for after the war. we have to wait until after the war to look back. we have to be focused on what we're doing in gaza now. the problem with that is, israelis need to have confidence in their political leadership, and their military leadership, in their intelligence community. the people that are carrying out the war, the people that are making huge consequential decisions, and i don't know how you can have that confidence when there is reporting like this. >> this has always been an issue in just understanding at the ground level of the tactical response from israel, which was from one day to the next you go from totally blind to this horrific attack, it was brutal and catastrophic in the country's history, i think, in many ways, though they have suffered many attacks in israel. to prosecuting a war that's going to depend on some intelligence, a lot of intelligence. where are targets? where are things? it's the same apparatus. it's the same folks. it's the same units. it's the same kernels. it's all the same thing. and so yeah, the question of how much faith people can have, particularly the biden administration, the u.s. government, as it prepares its aid package, i think only gets more acute after this remarkable bombshell reporting from new york times, published tonight. ben rhodes, always good to have you sir. thank you very much. still ahead, donald trump's gagged once more. where the latest ruling means for trump, and will he be able to follow the rules for once? next. once next next >> ♪ we're building a better postal service. for more on-time deliveries. and easier, affordable ways to 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( ♪ ♪ ) start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. the virus that causes shingles is sleeping... in 99% of people over 50. it's lying dormant, waiting... and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you're not at risk for shingles? >> don trump was given the gag it's time to wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. order by the judge in his new york civil fraud trial in new york, after donald trump attacked the judges clerk in a social media post shortly after the trial began last month. trump violated the order twice, which led the judge to fine him $15,000 and warned that continued violations could put trump in jail. but trump's attorneys began to also attack the clerk. again, this is court staff. the judge extended a gag order to them. trump appealed and an appellate judge temporarily stayed the gag order. within hours of that state, a window in which he could say what he wanted to, trump attacked the clerk again, and then again. starting yesterday, the ex president went even further. this time attacking the trial judge's wife. today justice as trump was posting another baseless ramp rant against judge's wife, the ruling came down real reinstating the gag order. donald trump lost. the judge responded in open course with a warning with trump and his team, i intend to enforce the gag orders rigorously and vigorously, and i want to make sure counseling forms the client. nancy gardner, a senior lecturer at harvard law school. she joins me. now nancy, so glad to have you. i haven't been able to talk to you for a few weeks as this is all been playing out. this is not my world. it's yours. i don't spend a lot of time in courtrooms. i'm watching this, like, how is this happening? have you ever seen anything like this? have you ever, in your career as a judge? has someone in your courtroom gone at your clerks like this or doing anything like the behavior here? >> that's an important question, and it has to be said that any other defendant in the galaxy who build a hate behaved as trump is behaving would have been found in contempt long ago. so the notion that there are special rules that are specially disadvantage-ing trump's preposterous. so no. there are rules about what you can say about a trial, particularly a jury trial. the rules control that so you don't take it. this is slightly different. this is a question of attacking the judges clerk and the harm is not speculative. they have been thousands and thousands of threats against her. we know that there is an impact. nobody has to speculate about it. and anyone else in that situation would've been held in contempt. in both the d.c. case, which is dealing with a gag order, and in this case the judges have been unbelievably controlled, unbelievably careful and what they do with trump. but anyone else would have been held in contempt. >> to your point, i want to read from that filing last week. this is in the courts lawyers taking up the case in the appeal and talking about the judges clerk. he says she has been subjecd to, on a daily basis, harassing, disparaging comments and antisemitic tropes, receiving approximately 20 to 30 calls per day to her personal cell phone, approximately 30 to 50 messages per day on combined sites. since the interim state was issued lifting the gag orders, approximately half of the harassing in disparaging messages have been antisemitic. it is not abstract. it is now back on. this ought, again off again thing, i understand for procedural reasons why it happens. there's also this bizarre thing where you're flipping a switch of how much he can essentially incite the possibility of genuine danger against these people as it goes on and off. now it's back on, now what happens? >> so there's a question of enforcement, that's the issue here. if he does it again, a judge confine him. fines are actually, you know, -- for people like him. if he keeps on doing it notwithstanding the finds he can be jailed. he can be jailed. the question would be, how that happens. there are procedural protections for. that there certainly could be jail. no question about it. the best quote about all this what i heard from someone, a guy by the name of bob kasper, you can't scream fire in a movie theater but neither can you broadcast lies to encourage other people to burn down. >> right. >> and that's what he's doing. he's basically lying about the clerk to encourage other people to intimidate her. and you can't do that. the question of how the judge reacts to it is not an easy question. maybe trump is trying to go up to the edge. the notion of him being held in contempt in jailed maybe something that he wants to -- >> it does feel like the sort of game of chicken, this constant testing, he's gonna keep going until it builds up more. that has been the pattern so far, and we're gonna keep watching is a. develops nancy gertner thank you,. still coming, nikki haley picks up a behind the scenes congressional endorsement. but is that the kind of anonymous support enough to make her run at trump? 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[group laughing] admit it. you use my old spice body wash. i'm not letting hotel soap. near my skin. it's the lavender and mint for me. let me get that, savannah, if you don't get your moisturized hands off my body wash. ♪ if you struggle. ♪ and struggle. ♪ and struggle with cpap. you should check out inspire. ♪ no mask. no hose. just sleep. inspire. sleep apnea innovation. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com >> a few months ago i came across this new york times op-ed that just blew my mind. it stopped me where i was. it's titled, the story of our universe may be starting to unravel. ever since i've been thinking about it. the op-ed looked at the theory of the big bang as the origin of the universe and how the more data we get, particularly from the james webb space telescope, where scientists are thinking maybe we don't actually have such a great theory. and so on my podcast, why is this happening, i gotta sit down with one of the coauthors of that piece, the radical physicist marcelo -- who gave me a transfixing tour of the fun two years of cosmology. >> what we can tell you about the universe is a little bit like watching a movie but missing the first few minutes, so we got stuck in a traffic jam, missed the beginning of the movie, we sat down, and those five first minutes were super important. >> why is he bleeding? what's going on? >> we can tell the story at about a 100th of a second after the bang because we can measure those things in a laboratory. we have signals we can essentially measure the so-called microwave background radiation, we can study it. but this only goes so far into the past. to go beyond that you have to start using a kind of physics that is beyond what we have in the lab and we have to extrapolate and speculate. the question for us is, are we on the verge of perhaps a new paradigm shift when it comes to understanding of the universe as whole. that is the question that is openfor us right now. >> there's so much more of that really fascinating conversation. listen now by scanning the q r code on your screen or searching why is this happening, wherever you get your podcast. wherever you get your podcast. >> biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there whether you're just starting or replacing your current treatment. research shows that taking h-i-v treatment as prescribed and getting to and staying undetectable prevents transmitting h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. rare, life-threatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems. do not take biktarvy if you take dofetilide or rifampin. tell your healthcare provider about all the medicines and supplements you take, if you are pregnant or breastfeeding, or if you have kidney or liver problems, including hepatitis. if you have hepatitis b do not stop taking biktarvy without talking to your healthcare provider. common side effects were diarrhea, nausea, and headache. no matter where life takes you, biktarvy can go with you. talk to your healthcare provider today. the chase ink business premier card is made for people like sam, who make- everyday products, designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder, that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that- i need a breakthrough card. like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more. plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases. and with greater spending potential, sam can keep making smart ideas- a brilliant reality! the ink business premier card from chase for business. make more of what's yours. when migraine strikes you're faced with a choice. ride it out with the tradeoffs of treating? 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>> you don't think a secret endorsements gonna put nikki over the top? look, chris, here's something that tells you about the state of where the real republican party is, not where the donors and pundits wanted to be. nikki haley has one endorsement from a sitting senator, congressman, or a governor. one, ralph norman from her own state. that is it. the republicans who actually have to answer to republican voters in primaries are not publicly endorsing the key because they know what republican voters want and they realize it could hurt them with their own constituents. so no, it's not a profiling courage. i think mike lawler can survive in the biden new york district to go out and talk about it. but you can see that all the people that actually have skin in the game know the reality, which is donald trump has a grip on the party. >> okay, so here's my response to that. sort of, not robot poll, but you're right. it's true that anyone they faced a primary it would be, say it's a 60 40 or 70 30 trump, i still think, my theory of the case is, there's still 30% of the republican voters that are basically unrepresented. and if you start building off that you could maybe do something. like, if you got to a forest choice and you started with those people, you're probably not going to get maybe there's something to work on there. >> the argument is they should try. >> yes that's the argument, they should try. >> they should try. i don't think it would be successful this time. i agree with. and i argue that somebody should've fired him in 2020 because it could've started that 20% 30% back then, they could've built a brand. i said that last time. that said, we are where we are. we're six weeks out from iowa. and moderate republicans are doing secret endorsements. so yeah, these guys are cowards. certainly the florida prospects would be better if they actually attempted to try to challenge donald trump. but the big part of the reason why they haven't is, they understand where the majority of these voters are, and i think what the kochs and the other people that are trying to push the key right now are running up the bill and they're gonna fall right back down. >> the other thing about haley to me is that i don't, again, the wish casting isn't wish casting. it wouldn't keep me up at night if she would in the american constitutional experiment if he were president. i misread people in the past, maybe i'm wrong about that, but that's my first reading of her. i'm not sure, ron desantis, and ramaswamy is a ludicrous character, but this is sort of appealing. i guess what i feel is, it would be nice to have an election in which those were the existential stakes, even though that's probably what we are headed towards. >> yeah, for sure. i absolutely feel that way. and so i encourage people. i left the party but i encourage people who are still in the party go out there, try to help nikki. for me, i have trumped arrangement, syndrome. -- i went before in the general election, but obviously we would be the sign of leave and go out to the virus might not be worried that maybe the democratic experiment might come to an end a year from now. and so, yes that would be nice if nikki haley was there. the problem is that the people who are pushing this are the people that the republican base voters loathe. i saw wonderful story the other day that jeremy diamond worked to help nikki haley. >>. don't say that out loud, jeremy diamond. >> makers and democrats working to help nikki haley. it's the worst headline imaginable. >> that is also part of the problem. the entire authority structure within the party broke down so badly that there is nothing outside of it and outside of trump to be able to pry it away. and so in the establishment of the donors are all these people, anyone gets together will be like hey, maybe it's not a good idea, everyone hates that leadership so much that it essentially as the opposite effect. >> yeah. they either actively dislike the leadership, in a case like the big donors, or -- spent eight years telling their own voters or viewers in the case of accidental trump was the greatest thing ever. and so it's hard to around the next day and say he's a danger to the republic. >> tim miller, as always, thank you. that is all in on this thursday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening alex.
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