his new book, tired of winning, donald trump and the end of the grand old party is not tomorrow. it serves as a roadmap of what we should expect from donald trump if he ever reenters the oval office. he's going to take us inside all of that in a moment. also later tonight, john favrow, tommy vietor, my former colleagues of their pod save america. they will talk about how president biden should campaign against a fully authoritarian opponent. that's what we're talking about. now and later, congressman adam shift joins me on the deafening silence from his republican party. in the supreme court's ethics up today, and buccaneers the night on what former trump lawyer jenna ellis is telling prosecutors in georgia, and what that all means. but first, let's go back to that historical figure, trump seems to admire so much. this weekend, trump vowed to root out what he called the radical left dogs that live like vermont within the confines of our country. that is an exact quote. for the students of history out there, if that sounds familiar to you, it's because it echoes the language of adolf hitler. as he told czech foreign minister, among many others, this was the language he used frequently, quote, this vermin must be destroyed. look, lots of things trump says are shocking. they are shocking on a daily basis, but it's important a pause on this for a moment, because the former president, who is also the current front runner for the republican nomination and very much could end up in the oval office, is mirroring the dangerous rhetoric hitler used to come back to the holocaust. this is not an isolated incident. an and interview just last month, trump used graphic dehumanizing language against undocumented immigrants, accusing them of, quote, poisoning the blood of our country. again, that's the kind of language hitler used in mein kampf, when he wrote, quote, agriculture said the past perish, only because they originally created for a sidearm blood poisoning. when asked about trump's rhetoric and how it echoes dictators like hitler and mussolini, which clearly does, his spokesperson says today, for those that claim that it does, which it does, there sat, miserable existence will be crushed when president trump returned to the white house. that sounds like something hitler or somebody spokesperson would say, but here is the thing. it's not just trump's fascist language or fascist ideations, which he clearly has, the piece that should really scared the hell out of everyone are his actual plans. a scary as all the talk, is the plans are even scarier, and that is especially important to pay attention to do, when he is in reach of regaining the white house. here's just a taste, a little taste, because there's a lot. i can cover it all tonight, of the unmistakably fascist plans trump has in store, locking up his political opponents, prosecuting officials at the fbi and doj, using the insurrection act to go after peaceful demonstrators, preparing for sweeping rates, sprawling camps and mass deportation of immigrants. there's new reporting today, every day, there's new reporting. according to axios today, about his plans to install a brief army of 50,000 loyalist essentialized and expand its power across every level of government. in this moment, when trump is using fascist language, which he frequently is and laying out fascist plans for the white house, it's important to know how we have arrived here. it's important to know it's not just the threat of the pass, this threat is very much still present right now. as jonathan karl writes in his book, whatever guardrails may have existed before are gone. he no longer as people stature around him who are willing to defy his demands and to protect the nation from his most destructive instinct, but it's more than that. it's that his destructive instincts are even more destructive than they were in january of 2021. joining me now is abc news chief washington correspondent, jonathan carl. he's the author of the new book, tired of winning, donald trump and the end of the grand old party. let me start with, i read this, book it did not take me long, it's a really amazing and have read, and i highly recommend it, but there's an argument out there, that trump has always been this way. you hear republicans say, this here's some of his advisers say this, that the behavior we see today is the double trump we should have always known. reading this, book it sounds like, you did not disagree with that notion. >> i do. look, there are elements that he's always been like this. he's been obsessed with himself, always been willing to lie to problem self up, but donald trump, of 2023 is not the same guy that came into the white house in 2017. he is more divorced from reality, more undeterred to do whatever is on his mind. i think the biggest factor here is all the guardrails are gone. when he came into the white house, there were people that came with him who felt that it was their duty to try to keep them, protect him and protect the country from its most destructive impulses, which were always clearly there. those people are gone. the people that tried to steer the white house counsel office, like don mccann and pat cipollone argon. people like mattis, john kelly, they're gone. anybody who tried to do anything to hold him back is now gone. it is trump and his most sycophantic supporters that are with him now. >> you have a rather stunning detail you talk about in the book. it's about an order trump, to this point you made, signed to withdraw troops from afghanistan, which is a massively consequential decision, i don't tell anyone. yet the document was effectively forged by trump's body man, with no input from military or national security adviser. christopher wray wrote that the president knew that states could not get the lead point to carry out his policies, because he cannot be bothered to learn how to implement them. but you referenced having kind of a protective group of people who are trying to prevent him from this behavior in a first term, with eating a second term would look like. >> at the end, this was johnny mcentee, his personal director, who was recently the guy who carried his bags, the body. >> here's proof -- promote it. >> he was promoted by kept the body guy job. he was always with trump. he was also responsible for the largest and most important hr department in the federal government, hiring and firing, 4000 political appointees throughout the executive branch. and, mcatee, after trump lost the election set out to remake the defense department. it was him who went through and helped trump decapitate mark esper and the top leadership and it's not people that would do exactly what trump wanted. he actually into writing this order, which we know about in the past, but what i learned is that he was literally trying to figure out how to do it by googling, and then doug mcgregor, this guy tipped over as the advisor for the defense secretary, just go to the file cabinet and get out and old executive order and look at the format and copy for. and he writes, it's not just a withdrawal from afghanistan, by the way, it's also a withdrawal of u.s. troops in germany, withdraw u.s. troops from the middle east, it's a massively consequential order. eventually, it was brought down, but it caused chaos over the course of several days in the pentagon. >> it reminded me of what we have seen in the forum shopping, to find staffers and lawyers, frankly, who are agreeing with what trump wants to do. there was some element that was not that way in the first term but feels like it could be in the second. part of it is that we recently heard trump, just over the last couple of days, indict his political opponent. i sit there and, he is going to indict his political opponents. he wanted to root out the vermont of the left, literally determined that he used. he used extreme positions on a range of positions, of course. what do you make of these kind of increasing threats. it feels a little like the authoritarian wildes of him are increasing, but what do you make of? it >> is an essential theme of my book, which is something that is different. there is a coherent idea now behind trump's reelection campaign. i don't know if there was always a call her idea. and the best, under greatest, build a wall, all that stuff, now, it's retribution. as i point out, steve bannon, who, once again, is an incredibly important adviser to donald trump, talks about the calm retribution speech which launched, basically relaunched his presidential campaign, at the time of that first round in waco, texas, of all places. secrets the waco texas, where the branch davidians had their showdown with federal law enforcement back in 1993. basically, the inspiration for the armed right wing military, that's where he goes to lance's campaign, and it is not about retribution, it's about seeking out his enemies. that, that you just cited, about the vermin, we're going to get the vermin, that is not see imagery. i am not saying that donald trump is a not see, but those -- that is the language used by adolf hitler. there's a story in this book, from a very senior member of congress, close ally of donald trump, tell me about this, that anomalies two occasions, trump told a story about angela merkel, the chancellor of germany. now, she told me, she only heard one person that has ever gotten a crowd as because me, and only one person could attract crowds, and this is the chancellor of germany, say to trump, that there is only one other. trump never says this, and he is bragging about this. >> it's the admiration for these figures, current and in history, who are abhorrent to most people. one of the things that was so shocking to me about the book was, we all spent so much time talking about the events of january six, the events leading up to january six, hugely important consequential time in history, but you talk a lot in the book about what happened after that, including, the fact that trump, a full six months after biden's inauguration, seemed to think that he could be reinstated. we have a little audio from your interview that will play, and then i want to talk to you about it. >> by the way, when you had a release recently, you said 2024 or before, with you mean by that? you don't really think there's a way you would get reinstated before the next election? >> i'm not gonna explain to you, jonathan, because he wouldn't, wouldn't understand it or write it. >> this is incredible, then one of the things, for all the things that you saw over the course of the trump presidency, this one really stood out to me for the post presidency. michael indo, my fellow election denying, he was out saying that trump would be reinstated, at the end of it all the specific date, on august 13th. this was right before that. i figured this was a qanon hockey thing that was out there, but i saw this press release, not a person throughout her, about something else. it was actually criticizing nbc. the last lines of it were 2024 or before, and that's why i ask, you can see, he's like, i am not going to explain it to you. he's not denying it, but what i found, he was actively pursuing this, actively talking about everybody that with listen privately, and he seemed to truly believe that there was going to be a series of steps that happened in the states that he lost, and that donald trump was going to be able to go back into the white house. joe biden was going to be evicted, and there is a story. it's not, by the way, just six months. what i learned is that -- >> that interview was about six months. >> but it kept on going on. into 2022. the actual thermobaric's, endorsed him running for senate in alabama. >> it was quite conservative. >> mo brooks, let's put it this way, he wore body armor to the speech outside the white house on january six. he was the first guy to leave the objections in congress to biden certification. so, millbrook's, he called more brooks up, and again, unannounced call, he picked it up and made a series of four demands. the demands were all related to the reinstatement thing. he wanted brooks to go out and call on biden to be removed from the white house, called to a re-running of the election, and for trump to be reinstated for president. and, well brooks, again, pretty extreme trump die hard, said, no, that is unconstitutional, i can do it. trump then a few days later withdrew his endorsement. this is not what was going on. he really thought that something was going to happen, would cyber ninjas in arizona and everything else. it was all going to come to this big culminating line, and he will go back to the white house. >> he talked to a lot of people who worked for him or around him. another really fascinating detail in your book is the mention an anonymous, former high-level official in the trump white house, somebody close to him, he described it as, who shared his reflections with you, after trump was indicted. he said, quote, i am going to read this, because it is kind of jarring. he lacks and a shred of human decency, humility or carrying. he is morally bankrupt, breathtakingly dishonest, we fully incompetent and seemingly ignorant of anything related to government, history, geography, human events or world affairs. he is a traitor and a malignancy in the nation, and we'll take clear and present danger to our democracy, and the rule of law. that is quite a statement for somebody who has spent time close to and around the former president, and that was something that he wrote down relatively recently. >> yes, this is somebody that served more than a year at a high level, ins somebody that went o publicly and repe about the elections, not one of those people, but he also is not supported and publicly come out to condemn thump either. that's not what they would call the usual suspects. this is somebody that served him, served him for more than a year, and it gets to a fundamental truth about donald trump, that is the most piercing and searing criticism of him, the people who are sounding the alarm lattice about what a second trump term would mean, are those who are closest to him, some of them have gone public, people like john kelly have gone public, to people, not just to him but to his family. this person has gone on, not directly active in politics right now, i think is quite chased from the experience. and you saw those words, really warning about not just what tonight. get re adam shift. donald trump's plans are, if you retakes the white house. the question is, what are democrats going to do about it? today, we got a hint. my friends jon favreau and tommy vietor have pod save america join me next. ve america join me next hi, i'm ben and i've lost 60 pounds on golo. (guitar music) i've struggled with weight my whole life. i'm sure you're like me and you've tried diet after diet. if you want to stop the insanity, try golo. >> so you may remember the last time democratic president ran for reelection when the white house. i definitely do. mitt romney was the republican nominee, and there were some similarities, definitely, heading into the 2024 election. there was a definite freak out over the polls in the fall of 2011, as there are today, and many predictions that then president obama was toast. as we all know, president obama was not toast, actually, but, the policy debates back then about issues like the economy and health care were front and center. they're still important today, but next year's election is definitely not the 2024 version of a policy debate with mitt romney. this are kind of the good old days, i had to tell you. next year is about the survival of the american experiment, and a few things make that reality more evident then a new statement for the yesterday, where they called other likely opponent, donald trump, for using the language of authoritarian dictators like hitler and mussolini. the question now is, how can the biden campaign successfully run against him? jon favreau is a former speech writer for president obama. tommy vietor is the spokesperson for the national committee council at the obama white house. we all work together in the good old days against the romney campaign. they are co-host of the podcast, pod save america, and co-host of the upcoming book, that marcus c or else, how to save america in ten easy steps, and they germano. >> john, i'll start to. this is a full circle moment for president biden. he started his 2020 campaign with an announcement video about the way nationalists marched at charlottesville. if anything, that is trump has only become more dangerous. we are literally here talking about him echoing hitler and mussolini. that's the composition that we're having, for people to know about. i think the question here is, what should the biden campaign, they had a statement from the white house, but what should the campaign be doing about. it's almost whack-a-mole with how many crazy things and or find things that are coming out of trump's mouth. >> it is, but i was glad to see a statement come out from the house and campaign. i think that the president should address this next time he has the chance to do so, and i realize it would be hard to do that from there was garden or white house, but next week is a campaign event. i am sure that reporters will ask him about it, because i think nothing clearly lays out the stakes of this election more than what trump said in that speech, and what he is planning to do, and the plan she laid out. joe biden, from the moment he ran, decided to run in 2020 on charlottesville. a.'s life in politics has been about making sure that you are in a fight for the soul of the nation, and they're trying to save democracy, and it's never been more important than no. yes the layout those stakes very clearly and as often as possible. >> tommy, i think that made sense. he has to have a stump speech for his campaign. he started to campaign much more, but there is a lot to touch on here. how should he approach this from the campaign? how should biden be talking about on the campaign trail? >> jen, because i am masochists, i watched the entire event that trump did in new hampshire -- >> that is a masochist thing to do. >> it came one hour and 44 minutes into the speech. there's a lot to work with at this point. i will say, during something he read off the teleprompter, it was his closing arguments. that is clue something he wanted to get covered, to get pick up, from the post to freak out about, and so his spokesperson could criticize the lips for getting worked up. i think the point you make at the top is exactly right, the rhetoric is bad and should be called out. the plans were worse. he must bring back the muslim ban. he was to get rid of daca, once they use the military to deport migrants. like jonathan karl was saying in the interview before, all the reasonable people are gone. it's all going to be all stephen millen. i think talking about the choice, highlighting what trump would do in a second term is critical because people, look, we don't have long memories in the country, we've got a lot of the poor things he did. >> john, their republican primaries, the dumpster fire stage, i think we can all agree on the. it's watching the debate and watching them go back and forth, but one of the things that they started to do is call out not donald trump's insane hitler echoing language, they're not doing that, but they are calling out kind of his incomprehensible way that he is communicating. a lot of the candidates are. do you think that is something that democrats should be doing, biden should be doing? it's not really biden's brand, but what should be happening with that from the biden campaign side? >> yeah, look, i think the biden campaign has been tweeting a lot of videos where, trump mistakes biden for obama, and he has a lot of trouble gaps. trump is crazy. he says crazy things all the time. you know, i was struck by the quote that jonathan carl had in his book, from someone, a senior white house official who worked with trump who said he could be lethally in cognitive. he could be a scary wannabe dictator and a clown, both of those things. and the truth is, even if he accomplishes 5% of what he says there is that, you and some of the, plants will still plunged everything into complete chaos. whether or not he's a clown, he was a club before january six, and then january six happened. i think it's important to highlight the fact that he is and says crazy ship all the time, but also, the really identify the plans, look, what he wants to do is, he wants to arrest his political opponents, once the ban people who disagree with him, from working anywhere in the federal government. he wants to use the military against protesters, wants the eu suspected shoplifters, two people who are caught selling drugs, round up immigrant families and put them into camps. i'll take the democrats and president biden have to put all of these plans in terms that people can understand, and make sure people understand how donald trump would affect their lives, if he gets a second term. it's not just about the extreme rhetoric, it's about what he tends to do in plans to do. >> apologize for the rhetoric for the families at home, these are podcast guys, i'll say that first. tommy, i am going to and what do. clean it up, guys. tommy, out and with you, democrats also need to figure out how they will run against trump, and run against candidates who are in the party of trump. what should they be going? it's not the same as biden given a speech, but what should candidates be doing when running for office, trying to take back seats. >> first, i would like to denounce my partner john, and let everyone know, i don't stand with him, i stand with you. i think keeping you from getting, whatever. as part as that insane man speech, trump said, i am an election denier. he held a, there is big applause. i think it's a useful quote for democrats, if you run against donald trump. i think it's a very useful for the dccc or the democrats running for the house of representatives, to ask their opponent, if they agree with the air support that line? we'll have a new york times poll last week in the biden, subsequent understandable anxiety and the democrat operatives class, they'll have to get these messages to young voters, voters of color, through media campaigns. those folks, who are not paying attention right now, that are not reading politico, like jonathan martin's piece this morning, but they'll have to put things on social media and highlight these messages. >> that's where it will say a lot. the to see what the campaign thinks. i never heard either of you swear outside the podcasts, that's what your motion also know. thank you both for joining me. jon favreau and tommy vietor, up next, we'll talk about audio that has never aired before about donald trump, about his relationship with the republican establishment. we'll play that next, and later, congressman adam shift joins me on buccaneers out of fulton county, georgia. i'll ask him about the use of controversial interviews with two codefendants out tonight. we're back after a quick break. n do that now. oh, that fast? 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>> no. >> because you, you had -- >> what did she say? >> that you -- >> what did she say? >> that you told her you were going to lead the republican party. >> now, this is the sickest thing i've ever heard. i never said any such thing. you mean, i was just gonna form another party or something? >> yes, yes. >> oh, that is [bleep], never happened. >> now, as you heard, trump denied vehemently there that he ever said anything like that. the rnc actually tried to deny to until car or minded them that his sources confirmed the story in a reported interview. it's very awkward. it shows you how incredible donald trump's relationship with the parties establishment has been, and yet, trump and the republican party have not split at all, despite four criminal indictments and increasingly unhinged, authoritarian language. the party are stuck by him, put me by him, and that was made clear yet again, with rnc chair woman ronald mcdonald refusing to condemn or comment on trump's incendiary remarks on veterans day, when he referred to political punches vermin. >> are you comfortable with this language coming from the gop front runner? >> again, i am not going to comment on candidates and their campaign messaging. >> first of all, commenting on candidates and their campaign message is literally the job with the rnc chair. that is literally your job. dan, she was asked to comment about something that trump said the echoed the language of hitler, but this pattern of republicans turning a blind eye is one that we have seen again and again. they've always come back to trump, no matter what, no matter what kind of damage on the party and the country. the difference now is that there gambling our future on a would-be dictator, and are too dug into ever reversed course. does not seem like they want to. congressman adam schiff there standing by. he just next. we'll get him to weigh in on some stunning revelations tonight out of fulton county, georgia, as well. georgia, as well. you deserve better than that. i'm hungry, i'm in a hurry, i don't have time to make anything healthy. you could if you had a blendjet. blendjet? it's the portable blender that makes the healthy choice the most convenient choice. i don't know. it seems like a hassle. hahaha! wrong. just pour in some milk, add some frozen fruit, and bam! you've got a nutritious and delicious smoothie. mmm! that is good. you're welcome, sad office guy. get yours today at blendjet.com are we in in an ad? 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he said, the boss is not going to leave under any circumstances. we are going to stay in power. i said, it is not quite work that way, he realized. he said, i don't care. >> joining me now is democratic congressman adam shift of california. he served on the house january six committee, a member of the judiciary committee, and he is not a candidate for the u.s. senate. so, congressman, i think it's safe to say that jenna ellis was not exactly forthcoming with the deposition with the january six committee. if i were you, that would be maddening, but now, she says she was told that trump would not leave the white house under any circumstances. how do you think prosecutors would use that testimony? >> i think that we can use it powerfully, and i have to say, it's just shocks you to listen to that testimony. even though we knew donald trump engaged in this multipronged effort to overturn the election involving pressure campaigns against a legislators, involving fake elector plot, ultimately allows january six. but they hear it in such cold blooded terms that the boss, donald trump, isn't going to leave. it does not matter that there is an illegal basis to stay, he's not going to. leif we have never heard those words from a president of the united states in our history. any others have won for reelection and loss, they never tried to cling to power, never said the election does not matter, i am not leaving until donald trump. i think that is going to be very powerful testimony. it shows why this investigation in georgia, and these plea agreements are going to produce some powerful evidence. >> it's such an important reminder. we also are seeing new reporting that he thought he was going back for months and months after, trying to go back. it's also shocking. i want to ask about the play -- jen ellis, we've known for a while that she struck a plea agreement. there's been questions, of course, about what this pressure, not hearing that testimony to, it raises the question again, does it to other defendants? especially people like rudy giuliani? what do you think, as they watch this? if rudy giuliani watch this, how does it impact him? >> well, i think many of these folks that have already planted, they were coming to the race to the courthouse to get the best deal that they could get. now others, seeing what these witnesses are saying, are probably realizing, hey, if i'm going to get a deal, i better get a deal quick. i don't think that there will be much of a deal to be had for rudy giuliani, if he is willing to plead to serious charges. but i have to think that all of the other indicted members of this conspiracy started to think, hey, the evidence is piling up, people started to talk, what does this mean to me, and intense circumstances, it's every man and woman for themselves. they're going to look up to do what keeps them out of jail or reduces their sentence, so this is powerful stuff. >> maybe rene could the chorus -- i want to turn to the news of the supreme court today, which is that they adopted a formal code of ethics for the first time in its history, but one that seems to have a zero enforcement mechanism, do you think that this could've ethics is good enough to restore public trust? you've been calling for them to do something like this for a while, but what do you think looking at it? >> no, this is nowhere near enough to do justice to. people's concerns about the court, frankly, i think we need to expand the court, determined the court. as far as a code of ethics is concerned, it could've ethics with no enforcement mechanism is no code of ethics at all. it is essentially just window dressing. it allows them to make the claim that they are bound by some sort of cold. but if there is no way to enforce it, no way to investigate it, no repercussion for violating it, then it's a pretty worthless code, so they are going to have to do better than that. i think congress ought to move forward with its own code of ethics and post on the supreme court, because, otherwise, we're just going to see more of the same. when you read between the lines of discotheques, it bends over backwards to try to explain and excuse everything that the justices have done. it also seems to say, we're not doing anything new here, this is the same code that we always operated under. this is the same code that they have always operated under, it hasn't worked out until now, and it's not likely to work in the future. >> first of the pass is kind of a misunderstanding, which is just ludicrous, as we have all been watching this closely. i also want to ask you about one of donald trump's increasingly authoritarian rhetoric. it is so important to keep talking about this. he is echoing language used by hitler and mussolini. his campaign seems to be doubling down on that. a lot of republicans, most republicans are frankly quiet and silent on this. ronald mcdaniel refused to comment on it. what you think that is? is a fear, is that they want trump to get reelected? do you think that they agree with him, what can you attribute it to? >> it's fear, and it's cowardice. these elected officials, people that i served in congress, who republicans behind trump, they know exactly what he is. how can you listen to testimony of georgia, that the president sought to remain in power, notwithstanding having lost, and support something like that? but they are afraid. they see liz cheney, adam kinzinger, they stood up for their principles, they expose the danger and were forced out of congress. for liz and adam, there was something more important than continuing to serve in congress. it was the constitution. it was their own character, but for all too many, those things don't matter quite so much as holding their office or maybe getting better office one day, so it's fear and cowardice, and it's craven, and it's putting the country at grave risk, to even contemplate electing someone who will cling to power the way that donald trump did try, who embraces the language of dictators, tries to dehumanize the opposition, calling them vermin, just like hitler and mussolini. when someone like that tells you what they are going to do, he's telling us he would weaponize the justice department, and or the power again, without even more of a fight, you need to listen to them, and you certainly can put them anywhere near the members of power again. >> you better listen, he's telling us exactly what he is doing. a pointed quite two and, thank you so much, congressman for joining me, this evening. coming up, why are white supremacists and neo-nazi groups popping up at procrastinate rise across america? one of the lawyers who sued the white supremacist responsible for the violence and shots, phil, back in 2017, joins me to answer the question coming up next. >> the war between israel and hamas sparked protests across the united states. tomorrow, large pro israel rally will be held at the steps the u.s. capital with up to 100,000 people expected to attend, according to organizers. of course, we have also seen a number of massive pro palestinian protests in cities and on college campuses over the last month. and, now, bad faith actors, in particular, neo-nazis, are showing up at purpose than in protest to stoke patrons -- hatred and provoke violence. it's all eerily similar to 2017, when white supremacists marched to southville, chanting, jewish people cannot replace us. and now karen dunn, one of the lawyers who successfully convicted the white supremacists in charlottesville, has a new ominous reporting on msnbc. com. she writes, quote, are -- it's important to our college campuses leave space for speech, the bay and protests, all rightfully protected under our constitution, but we should not tolerate antisemitism anywhere, not only because it is morally wrong but also because for growing rights supremacist movement, it's a mechanism to rally the troops against all non white groups and usher in what richard spencer once called any world of political violence. joining me now is karenunn, not a culture of litigation department at the law firm carl weiss. karen is featured in the hbo original documentary, no accident, which if you're interested in this, he should watch it, a huge wake up call, about the civil lawsuit against the organizers of the ignite the right rally in charlottesville. karen, thank you for joining me and writing this to, i just want to start, because i think when people hear this, they're like, why are white supremacist showing up at the pro palestinian rallies? what do they want out of this? >> overall, john, thanks for having me, what they want is that they want an all-white ethnostate in north america. as crazy as that sounds, that is actually an articulated goal of the new not sea and white supremacist movement in the u. s.. one of the things that helps them rally the troops is antisemitism, so, now, in the u.s., we are experiencing a massive uptick in antisemitism, that will disrupt something like 285%, and they wait supremacists, neo-nazi groups, see an opportunity to advance some of the same teams and same antisemitic tropes that they have been plugging away after years. >> you talk in your op-ed a lot about how there are shadows of charlottesville, from back in 2017, which was a horrifying moment in our history, and how these white supremacists and neo-nazis are trying to take advantage of passion on college campuses. i would also add that there are many tens of thousands, if not more, people protesting civilian casualties, on behalf of what they are seeing happened, but they are trying to take advantage of that. why are they targeting college campuses? >> it might help if we go back to 2017. in 2017, everyone saw what happened in charlottesville, but what they did not know is that what was referred to as unite the right publicly was referred to privately on chat rooms as, the battle of charlottesville. it was inspired by an event earlier that year at berkeley called the battle of berkeley. and the reason that college campuses were targeted was it was a place that was easy to attract counter protesters, in that case, left leaning liberal counter protesters, and then provoke violence. the point of provoking violence is that the theory is, in order to have an all white ethnostate in north america, you need to have a race war. to have a race war, you have to have battles. so, we had the battle of charlottesville, the battle of berkeley, and that was intended early to just be the beginning. >> so, you sued the organizers of the charlottesville horrific events. what do you think, as we're watching this happen no, what can we learn from that, what should people know that we can trace to address what is happening now? >> the most important takeaway is that what started in charlottesville with jewish people not replacing us, turned into extremist violence against all non white groups, and, obviously, one woman was murdered, many others were gravely injured, and entire city was rocked, terrorized, and the nation woke up to that. so, the key thing to recognize is antisemitism, wherever it is, is fuel for the white nationalist movement, fuel for the neo-nazi movement, and so to the extent that we are allowing this to fester, to become more inflamed and seating these divisions, we're offering really an opportunity to groups that tend to do all of us harm, not just jewish people, all of us. >> there are many people, as i mentioned, out there, who are hurting, who are horrified by what they are seeing happening in gaza. they may want to join a peaceful protest. what should they do? how do they avoid being aligned, not intentionally, with these neo-nazi groups? >> right, i think the key is awareness. so, that is one of the reasons i am glad that they made a movie about our case in charlottesville, called no accident, thank you for talking about it. i think it is a wake up call, that you can have peaceful protests, but, there are people who seek to take advantage of just the rise in racial hatred, and i think, the more that we are aware that these forces exist, that they're coordinated, that they are communicating, that they are incredibly tactical. the use of antisemitism is tactical. it's not an accident, right? i do think that the people need to be aware and not tolerate it. i think if you come for a peaceful protests, and there are neo-nazis there, it is good for everybody not to tolerate that, because that is going to be bad for everybody and lead very likely to more extremist violence in the united states. >> there's a lot of language that issues that there, and you have been outspoken about antisemitism, which is on the rise in the country. it's the language you hear that you think, that is breaking my heart, i wish people would not say that? and maybe it's not done intentionally, maybe they don't know the history? >> there is the language that really, for me, it's just so reminiscent of what led up to charlottesville. there are phrases i probably can say on your air, but there is a phrase, constantly repeated, gas and the jews. they did not say jews. they used an ethics killer. . hearing these phrases that are the same faces that led to the violence in charlottesville that was used to unify the white supremacist neo-nazi movement, that, those are the two things, that for me, i find so alarming, because i know at the end of the story looks like. >> karen dunn, thank you so much autonomy, for writing this. that does it for me tonight, rachel maddow show starts right now. hi, rachel. >> hey, jen, thank you so much, i appreciate it. >> thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. i'mhi jumping the gun because ts has been a heck of a day in the news. the united states supreme court fored the first time ever has issued anme