Transcripts For MSNBCW Decision 20240702

of tonight's republican presidential debate, a debate that, again, was a republican debate but the candidates themselves came back to the topic of republicans losing. they kept bringing it up themselves, unprompted. >> we've lost 2018, 2020, 2022, no red wave that never came. we got trounced last night in 2023. >> i'm sick of republicans losing. >> look, people they are cheering for. losing in the republican party. >> we've become a party of losers at the end of the day. >> and yes, the man who has been the leader of the republican party in the period in question, through all of that losing, this is pretty much as closed as anyone got to outrun out criticizing former president and current presidential front runner donald trump, tonight. >> i can talk about president trump. i can tell you that i think he was the right president at the right time. i don't think he's right president now. i think that he put us eight trillion dollars in debt, and our kids are never gonna forgive us for that. i think the fact that he used to be right on ukraine and foreign issues, now he's getting weak in the knees and trying to be friendly again. i think we've got to go back to the fact that we can't live in the past. we can't live in other headlines. we have to focus on what's going to make america strong and proud. that's what i'm focused on doing. >> that's much of criticism that we saw against donald trump tonight. he, again, is ahead of these candidates by 30, 40, 50 points in the polls. i'm rachel maddow, i'm here with joy reid and nicole wallace and stephanie ruhle and lawrence o'donnell and chris hayes. we've been talking about the fact that the polling here precludes any of us describing describing any importance to the performative competence of these candidates. i think ron desantis is getting better. i thought that he was the worst supposedly potentially viable candidate i had ever seen in a presidential debate, intubate one, and now i feel like this new beta version of his software is turning out some new things. he spoke in a way that i actually think reflects the fact that he has been working on it. and he talked in ways that were sort of human. and he got what seemed to be legitimate applause. that means that he's a candidate who can change. there, that's my positive thing. >> if you are suggesting that he has gone from an f to a c minus, i think i'm with you. >> his problem isn't that he's awkward. i think most people have awkward people in their lives in they have the most enduring people in their lives. the problem is that he is peddling hate and doing it in a less compelling way that donald trump, not in my opinion, in the opinion of the republican primary. he's peddling this very extreme agenda in a way that republican primary voters, even the ones living in florida, view as far inferior to the way trump does the same thing. >> and also because no one wants to buy his substitute when they get the real thing. to me he was the biggest loser because he's on his home turf. everything that he has done to get to this place has been to pass and force through legislation that have made republicans in tallahassee resent him. they are now stuck with a six -week abortion ban that is deeply unpopular. he has picked fights with decently that have left to lawsuit. picked fights with the cruise industry. picked fights essentially pushed labor, latino workers out of the state, which is hurting the construction industry and the agricultural industry. they are screaming in pain because the workers are leaving because of his immigration bill. he stuck all of them, all of the state with that. he's not even getting anywhere in the polls. so i think there are a lot of republicans who will tell you in florida who resent him. so there really isn't a future for him if he doesn't, and he doesn't get a nomination again and that's the cheeseburger thing happens. >> to me the two winners are nikki haley and chris christie. so the real question is to no labels. no labels for anyone out there for months, raising money, pending the idea that we've got to have somebody other than trump, other than biden. chris christie and nikki haley made all the arguments tonight that you hear no labels make. so my question tomorrow morning when i pick the phone and say hey nancy jacobson, do you want to come on tv and her answer, again, is going to be no, why do you guys exist? because you've got two people on that stage right now who could challenge donald trump with all your dollars behind them. what exactly are you doing? >> the whole no labels thing is by people who are hoping that trump is going to get elected and that they can peel off seemingly moderate voters from voting for a democratic incumbent president by instead saying it is this magic third way. that's all it is. because the sort of magic third way that you're talking about is completely embodied by those two who are not gonna win anything. >> can i take the debate seriously for just one minute. it's one thing that desantis said. and what is serious about it is it's an injection of poison into the body politic and into american society, and it is a breathtaking insult to the intelligence of republican voters and their human decency. and that is that ron desantis is going to shoot and kill drug smugglers at the southern border, and my question is, when? when will you determine that that's a drug smuggler who you're going to shoot and kill? is it going to be someone who has a backpack, who is swimming across the river? do you shoot and kill him or her then? do you wait find out what's in the backpack? how do you do this? and of course to do it, you would have to pass a new federal law that legalizes that particular murder, which you can't do because it's going to be 60 votes. but this very concept that is how we will handle it, and no one has had the courage to do this before, for no good reason, but i, ron desantis will set up the machine gun turrets along that border and i will have them shot. there won't be trials. there won't be apprehensions. there won't be anything. they'll be shot and they will be dead and then we will find out what was in the backpack. that's his insult to the intelligence and the decency of republican voters in the country at large. >> we had ron desantis and vivek ramaswamy both talk about using military force inside mexico. we also saw tim scott so he was going to literally declare war on iran. >> a less grim partner to that, but my favorite moment was vivek ramaswamy describing building a border on the totality of the northern border as, quote, skating to where the puck is going, which i thought was a nice play for the canadian vote, i guess, in some weird way. but i guess equal opportunity insane paranoia and -- >> he's also said he; s the only candidate brave enough to go to the northern border. >> without a jacket on? >> i think to your point, lawrence, it is a symptom of ron desantis other core problem, which is because he had a super majority in the state house, he gave them a list and they did everything on the list and he is now trying to convince voters, republican voters, that he can work the same magic in washington, which a completely different system, in which, as nikki haley keeps pointing out, you need 60 votes in the senate to do anything. if anyone really truly believes that he can do any of the things he is saying based on what he did in florida, which he keep citing, they're not paying attention to the world because it doesn't work that way in washington at all. >> he also literally said aside from the widely reckless and morally indefensible glib talk about basically starting war with mexico, which is heinous in every way and heinous in the casualness in which they all talk about it, he literally said, i'm gonna build the wall and make mexico pay for it tonight. why am i gonna go with you instead of the last guy that said he was gonna do that? literally, what's the point? we all know that's his line. why would i vote for you? he's the one that said he would do that and obviously didn't. why would i vote for another person who said he would do it and obviously didn't? >> the things that we've been talking about what level of criticism trump came in from. that was kind of the one thing, trump added a lot of debt, that's one thing they criticized him for. the other specific thing he was criticized for was not getting mexico to build a wall. so ron desantis, as if you could look at the four years of the trump administration and say, that was the problem, that was the one thing that really went wrong and we can all agree, let's bring america together, make mexico pay for it, one pay, so so clearly that's the unfinished business we should use to put hell the republican party back in the white house but. the >> 1 million americans dead from covid. >> foot, no one reason mexico did not pay for the wall is we didn't build the wall. >> correct. >> [laughter] >> there's that. and there's also the water, there's the water that makes the wall. because there's the water. >> but again, this is so ludicrous to us. i think the big thing watching this is that republican primary voters don't like any of that. like trump is ahead, again, 30 to 50 points more popular than everyone on the stage. -- >> and he's running to take down a trusted institutions. he's running for revenge. he gets on the podium and says i'm your retribution. >> one of the core driving aspects that produced 2016 and trump was genuine and unbridled contempt on the part of republican voters for the republican party. ramaswamy has tried to channel that in certain ways. we have seen again and again with how it is manifested. trump being, like, all these people are losers, which was his schtick in 2016, really worked with them. and i think it just remains the case that for a variety of complicated reasons, like republican voters still kind of hate the republican party and don't put trump in the same category. >> and by the way, i would say the person closest to making this point is nikki haley, where she did say republicans need a new generation, trump was right for that right time. >> but we need a new generation. no one is really talking about it. people talk about it with biden. but trump thinks that he ran against barack obama. trump is not always sure where he is. >> it's where he has that might make us into world war ii. >> world war ii might have. and >> it's not clear he might be non corpus mentors and nobody says anything. there is this sort of, the biden conversation about his age isn't had about trump, trump is only three years younger. trump is arguably not all there. not there the way he was even in 2016. his lack of ability to get through a sentence, he slurs his words. there's a lot there. if one of these candidates wanted to try to take him down, if they had the political skill, i don't know if any of them have the political skill, there's so much there that it actually is political malpractice that they're not even trying. >> the biden harris campaign put out the press release calling out the media for not covering a lot of these gaffes, and i think it's good that his rallies aren't taken lightly, but you do miss a lot of the gaffes. you have to go looking for them. he was on the stage, he didn't know where he was. someone came up and told him where he was and corrected him. this is happening. -- >> in court this week, the judge was asking him question about his business. and he said i was busy running the country. and they were like, sir, you weren't in office that year. [laughter] that happened three days ago. >> there's a good faith criticism to be made that like, oh, we shouldn't elect somebody who's 80 to be president. there is nothing inherently wrong with making that kind of an argument categorically. but the answer to that cannot be, you're right, we should definitely put it at 77. that's what we need a 77-year-old. >> who would be 80 during his presidency. there is a way in which these candidacies, particularly the christie candidacy, might actually, in the end, do trump in. when i look at that board, i'm wondering, that steve had up there, how many of those christie voters, how many of those nikki haley voters, will not vote for donald trump in a general election? they have had plenty of time to make up, everyone who's not voting for trump, 30%, whatever it is, everyone who's not voting for him in the republican primary, has thought about him a lot. and they have decided, as of today, no, i don't want to vote for donald trump. he will surely, if he's the nominee, get most of them going into a general election against joe biden. but he is unlikely to get all of them because there must be some pretty strong feelings to define themselves against donald trump at this stage of this election. and donald trump needs every single one of them. he cannot lose a single republican vote. he's on his way to. >> let's just be real about this, as well. freed of the need to run in a democratic primary, joe biden does not have to run to the left ahead of the general election in a way that's going to be staking out positions that he's gonna find hard to defend in a general election. he can run as bipartisan joe biden from now all the way through next november in a way that is going to provide him maximum opportunity for peeling off any persuadable independent voters, independently leaning, republican-leaning independents and anyone else in the republican party that can can't stomach trump. biden is perfectly positioned to do that because he has governed in a bipartisan way. he does have a legislative record of accomplishment. he's not a partisan bomb thrower. and he doesn't have to run in the primary. >> by the way, robert f. kennedy junior, who nobody talks a lot about him, because he's odd, but he is running. and the polls that i've seen show that the bigger risk is to trump, because the people who love rfk junior the most are anti-vaxxers. >> yes, the covid stuff. >> exactly, so that's not taking from biden voters. potentially, rfk junior is a bigger threat to trump. so trump really does need every single voter. >> and raisa, to be your point, the first people that joe biden can look for and that effort are the plus 20 who voted to enshrine abortion in the constitution in ohio. there is a 20% cushion for joe biden to say, i see this the way you see it. that guy over there, he's the reason roe is overturned. >> he's the reason roe was overturned and you've got a new speaker the house, who's an opponent of the federal abortion ban and lifelong antiabortion activist. you sure you want to give the republicans the white house right now? >> nikki haley and chris christie's fundraising dollars in the next week off of this debate, think about the point that lawrence just made. the people who write her big checks tonight, and chris christie, are they really two months from now going to say well, i guess i'm gonna go for trump? they are not. >> they've had every opportunity. much more to see tonight. jen psaki's gonna be joining us in just a moment. stay with us. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. i was a bit nervous at first but then i figured it's just walking, right? 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( ♪♪ ) rsv can be a dangerous virus [sneeze] for those 60 and older. it's not just a cold. and if you're 60 or older... you may be at increased risk of hospitalization from this highly contagious virus. not all dangers come with warning labels. talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting vaccinated against rsv today. rsv vaccines, including pfizer's, are now available. the first time you made a sale online with godaddy was also the first time you heard of a town named dinosaur, colorado. we just got an order from dinosaur, colorado. start an easy to build, powerful website for free with a partner that always puts you first. start for free at godaddy.com you're probably not easily persuaded to switch mobile providers that for your business.rst. but what if we told you it's possible that comcast business mobile can save you up to 75% a year on your wireless bill versus the big three carriers? have we piqued your interest? you can get two unlimited lines for just $30 each a month. there are no term contracts or line activation fees. and you can bring your own device. oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. >> welcome back to msnbc's wireless that works for you. it's not just possible. special coverage of the third republican primary debate. i'm jen psaki, alongside some of my absolute favorite people to talk politics with, especially late at night. >> joining me here at the table her are former democratic senator from missouri, claire mccaskill, also the co-host of the podcast how to win in 2024. a great podcast. former rnc chairman michael steele, who always holds back, so we're looking forward to bringing him bring him out of his shell tonight. former spokesperson for kamala harris and host of symone at msnbc, symone sanders-townsend, and former senior advisor for mitt romney, kevin madden. this is a wild towed crazy night, but very substantive on foreign policy and other issues. i want to start with you, michael. what's your big take away from tonight? >> as one said, it was a typical night in the jungle, all the animals breed at the moon and try to mark their territory. i still say this was nikki haley's night after last units have been. she showed poise in the face of the craziness of vivek ramaswamy. she could the kind of determination and steely strength that needs to go up against foreign adversaries like putin. and she laid out, i thought, a very reasonable, cogent conservative discussion, if you will, around abortion. i know people were likely disagree with that because it's sort of a hot issue, but within the republican ecosystem, what she said probably hurt her with some folks, but she took that risk in putting out this. i thought it was a good night for her. >> i won't even get into vivek. >> we will get into vivek, don't worry. i did think she had a good night, but i don't think she said nothing on abortion. clare, what do you think? >> i'm kind of with you. i listened really carefully to what nikki haley actually said about abortion. i came away with the conclusion that she succeeded in talking for about three or four minutes and said absolutely nothing. she didn't say what she was for, which he was against. she said we all have to get along, we have to have 60 votes. this is a difficult issue. and sounded very much like a politician. i wouldn't disagree though that she had a good night. i think chris christie had a good night. if you tuned in and you've never seen any of these candidates before, i think he was really good. >> yeah, he was. >> you have to filter in everything we know about chris christie. at the end of the day, i can't decide which i have a stronger opinion about, that vivek ramaswamy is the biggest jerk who's ever run for president, or -- >> does running as a jerk win? you've won before. >> i hope i was never as big to a jerk as he was. >> no, never. [laughter] bad phrasing. i don't think you'd run as a jerk and. when i'm sorry claire, that was my point. >> it is late. i have had my moments, i will admit. i think the funniest thing he may have said all night, which shows how out of touch he is, because all the women listening spit everything they were drinking out when he said what everything we do about abortion, we have to have male sexual responsibility. and i'm like, oh yeah. [laughter] is that gonna happen? >> in case you didn't see, she just threw her pan. >> let's see that piece of legislation. women in america are going, yeah, hold my beer. >> yeah, ain't going to happen. claire brought up chris christie. and i also think he had -- watching him, he seemed the least overtly poll tested or overly practiced in some way. i mean that in a slight compliment. but he also seemed a little deflated. i mean, he did not go nuclear on donald trump, which has been his tragedy in the past, but what did you think, kevin, of his performance? >> i still think that christy has the hardest path to the nomination. i would say, first of all, three things, three big takeaways i have on this. first is that, look, let's give credit to the moderators. this was a very moderated debate and i think as you contrast it to the last two debates, it was probably the most substantive. we saw a good strong policy debates. probably a lot of differences about how substantive were a lot of positions. but it was a good issue focused debate. the second thing is, and this is to your direct question, jen, the sub primary here, who is going to emerge as the alternative, who's going to take trump on directly, that race has been basically reduced down to haley, nikki haley, and ron desantis. those are the only two viable options right now that are going to emerge out of the early primary contest. you can see it in the debate, the way everybody went after nikki haley. why? she's the one that's most ascendent in the polls and has the most momentum, and all the other candidates are trying to stop that. the third thing, i think, is still the elephant in the room, donald trump, who was talked about for the first five minutes and then disappeared. >> he didn't come up. >> he went largely unscathed in this debate. nobody drew a hard contrast with him. they didn't have a broad sustained assault. as we get closer to iowa, new hampshire, north carolina, florida, somebody is going to take him on directly. we have yet to see it in a broad and sustained way. >> the absence of trump has been a theme. i do want to play this back and forth between nikki haley and vivek ramaswamy. get your thoughts, symone. i'm sure you have many. >> i want to laugh away nikki haley don't answer your question which is about looking at families in the eye. in the last debate, she made fun of me for actually joining tiktok, while her own daughter was actually using the app for a long time. she might want to take care of your family first. >> leave my daughter out of your voice. >> the next generation of americans are using it. and that's actually the point. >> -- here's the truth. >> you; re just scum. >> first of all, if anyone anyone brought up my daughter, i would mama bear claw them. >> she exercises restraint on states that don't think i would've had. that was a moment for ramaswamy. i think he's annoying. i think he's a jerk. he's absolutely annoying, i think the candidates feel that from the very first debate on that stage, and every single debate since then, i think they've all just worked to flick him away like a little fly. i do think the moderators took a very -- had a command of the candidates today and they did not allow vivek ramaswamy to run away with a conversation, but i do think that happened in the last two debates. all in all though, i do think that the candidates on the stage, i did not see a president on that stage tonight, i don't even think i saw a vice presidential candidate. >> on the republican primary voters saw present on the stage either, not that you're one of them. >> you know, i text with some of them. i didn't say president on the stage. and there are a lot of just extreme comments that were made. i thought the exchange about college campuses, similar, like the exchange about the border, was very jarring. and some of the comments that were made. i thought that tim scott was very underwhelming. he had a lot of -- i was texting during the debate with folks, and yet a lot to say about college campuses, but had nothing to say when hbcus were under attack. so like this fake outrage. i think is having a moment, and the moment never materialized. but it is did come out on stage, his girlfriend. >> mindy. >> mindy is her name, there we go. one of the most interesting things, and i know we have to take a quick break in a moment here, that i thought was how everybody went after nikki haley. nikki haley became not only did she have a pretty good night, of the candidates on the stage, but she also was the prime target. so that, i, thought was kind of an interesting tell about where things stand in the premier at this point. >> yeah, she is the ascendant one. as kevin noted. she is the one who galvanizes the energy of the money in the first instance that's moved off of ron desantis and move towards her. here's the problem, and it really goes to what kevin was saying, really quick, we talk about this as if it really matters, because it doesn't, because the base has decided who they want, and they weren't on that stage. that person wasn't on the stage. it's donald trump. the money interest plays out on that stage. there is drop, flopping back and forth leon scott and elite and so forth. but at the end of the day, this is going to be determined at a ballot box. and one of those folks gave that base a reason to vote for them. >> well, that's a key thing. we do have to sneak in a very quick break. but we're just getting started this hour. we're back with much more on the third republican primary tonight after this quick break. stay with us. stay with us somedays, i cover up because of my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin, even at 5 years. and skyrizi 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hour renewing micro moisture for continuous care. dove body wash. change is beautiful. kate is going big and going home for the holidays. that's the plan. at michaels she got everything to make cookies that were anything but cutter. turn ideas into i-did-its. ♪ (holiday music) ♪ >> unlike the first to republican primary debate, donald trump came up very early on tonight. here's what some the candidates had to say with four times indicted front-runner. >> donald trump's a lot different guy and he was in 2016. he owes it to you to be on the stage and explain why he should get another chance. he should explain why he didn't have mexico pay for the border wall. he should explain why he racked up so much debt. >> we need a president and a candidate who will actually help our bees solidify and attract independent voters into our party. >> anybody who is going to be spending the next 1.5 years of their life focusing on keeping themselves out of jail and courtrooms cannot leave this party or this country, it needs to be said plainly. >> okay, so he was very present early on. and then he kind of disappeared, right? we were talking about this a little earlier. but kevin, what's the strategy there? you're on these republican -- you've worked on a lot of republican presidential campaigns. what are they talking about? why are they going after trump? >> you know, i think there's a technical strategy, which is many these consultants inside the campaign or strategist inside the campaign are saying, like, we have to still get these voters. like if we want to win the nomination, if we want to find our way to 1236 delegates at the convention, then we are going to have to appeal to these voters. so they just don't want to draw hard contrast on them. but here is where i think that's a flawed strategy, is that voters don't -- hope is not a strategy. you can't lose hope that these voters start to migrate your way, or that trump self-destruct's, or that somebody else does the hard work for you. you have to go and make that case in the court of public opinion with those voters on your own. and so, the biggest mistake that campaigns also make is they think they have time. here we are, where in november, the first contests are in january. they have to make that case now, and i have to make it in a relentless fashion versus let's take a couple of jabs in the first five minutes of the campaign and then pivot away, the first five minutes of the debate, and then pivot away. >> i think kevin's absolutely right. i mean, they're waiting on their opportunity to stand on the stage next to donald trump and make there -- >> and it may never happen. >> i don't think it's ever going to have. and if i were biden donald trump, i never would be in my former life, but there is no chance i would stand on the stage with. them there's no reason. >> he might like what you're saying now. >> maybe he will call me. i just want him to tweet about me. the campaigns have made a gross miscalculation. and because of, that they're not going to see any traction. and i do think that, you know, mister chairman, i don't know, but the republican party apparatus has to have a conversation. because how are you going to move past this terrible moment if no one is willing to take a swing? if nobody is willing to go on and make their case? >> i mean, one thing i just wanted to inject here, because the other piece i think they have not really thought about somehow or haven't had some sort of, like, meetings in the basement over is what the heck they are going to say about abortion and what the policy is. and claire brought up earlier nikki haley's word salad, or maybe i, did we both talked about, it so i do want to play above that and talk about the abortion issue as well. >> let's find consensus. let's agree on how we can ban late term abortions. let's make sure we encourage adoptions and -- adoptions. let's make sure we make contraception accessible. let's make sure that mentally state laws put a woman in jail or give her the death penalty for getting an abortion. let's focus on saving as many babies as we can and support as many moms as we can. and stop the judgment. we don't need to divide america over this issue anymore. >> so is this -- i'm glad to ask both of you this question, i mean, is that a general election strategy or position that you think the republican party thinks will work, what she just said? >> i do. i think -- i thought it was a very sound case for her to make. when you consider the externalities in the politics around that issue, both inside and outside the party, she's talking to two audiences at the same time. and she's trying to craft a message that will allow her to hold position with her base, right, i'm pro-life. but understand that on that side of the base there are women, including republican women, who do not like the criminalization of abortion, who do not like the fact the party a spouses pro-life values, but then does not care for, as chris christie said, the whole life of the individual. so it is a tough argument for our republican to make today because they so backed themselves in the corner with dobbs. they so backed themselves in the corner with 50 years, not acknowledging a lot of the things that she stated there. and i know for a lot of my friends on the democratic side, they want something that's a little bit stronger and a little bit more, as claire noted, with some teeth to it. we'll see if that comes, if she is a nominee in the presidential, because she's going to have to confront that if you more head on that way. but for purposes of this primary, on this debate on that stage, i thought that she kind of weaved herself pretty nicely into a space that she can survive to fight another day on this issue. >> sometimes when you say everything, you say nothing, that is kind of the challenge. but i do think, claire, because one of the things that we haven't talked about a lot, and they didn't talk about a time tonight, is the results from last night, and what the lessons are that you would learn from that. so claire, what do you think is kind of a workable, you won in a red state, message on abortion? >> well, here's the thing. there is two ways to win a new lecture. and one is you can't win an election without attacking the person you are running against. and none of them did that. so i don't get the feeling any of them are trying to win anything. i don't know what they're running for. because they're not going to be his vice president. and i don't know what she thought she was accomplishing by doing that tonight. because if she ever really was a nominee, she would have to have an answer, she would have have an answer for the pro-life base, i shouldn't say pro-life, the antichoice base in the republican party. she would have to have an answer for women who see this as a highly emotional issue. and that's the other thing you have to be watching. you have to have a motion that drives turnout. and what the democrats have right now, and i don't care what all these consultancy, some republican consultant in virginia was quoted in the wall street journal this morning saying, well, this issue will fade by november of next year. no, no, it won't. this issue, once they did what was always theoretical and overturned roe, they have now a situation where women have lost an important right to determine their own health care. sometimes risking their lives. in my state, that 12 year old girl that the shooter put on tv that was raped by her stepfather? >> such a powerful story. >> she's mandated by the government in my state to give birth to that child. and 80% of america disagrees with. that so if nikki haley can't say that out loud tonight, that i'm for rape any incest exceptions night, no one said that tonight, not one person said a position tonight that 80% of america agrees with. so i think they have missed the boat in terms of capping the emotion that is driving more positive activity on the democratic side of the equation that i've seen in a long, long time. >> can i just say really quick, i hear you, and i feel, you and the chairman in me is gone. but i'm not running that race right now. i'm not running the race you're talking about. when i get to that race, then we will have that conversation, i will be prepared for that conversation, at least i hope and think she would be. but right now, that's not her race. she's running to become the republican nominee, now the democratic nominee. >> well -- >> we'll, if she though? >> you need to understand, folks, that politics, talking to your audience, and unless you're going to be a real risk taker and talk to two audiences at once, understand what is going on and say i get what you're saying, but please don't box it in as if, well, you've completely blown it. no, she hasn't, because if she comes out in january, march, and april as next year's nominee, i bet you she will be prepared to answer that question. what i'm saying is that she's setting up the argument a lot better than the -- >> old all your thoughts, because we've got to get clinton, and lots more to talk to about this. but i do want to turn to one of the most bizarre moments of the night, which is saying a lot, because it was kind of a bizarre night. here's vivek ramaswamy in his closing statement. >> end this farce that joe biden is gonna be your nominee. we know he's not even the president of united states. he's a puppet for the managerial class. so have the guts to step up and be honest about who you are actually going to put up so we can have an honest debate, but he should step aside, and his candidacy now, so we can see whether it's newsom or michelle obama whoever else. just tell us the truth, so we can have an honest -- >> this feels like a perfect time to bring on our next guest. joining me now is clinton folks, principal deputy campaign manager for president biden. quinton, thank you so much for staying up late with us tonight. so i just, first of, all do you want to respond to what vivek ramaswamy just had to say about president biden? >> well, thank you for having, me jen. look, that's a funny clip from ramaswamy. it actually sounds like he's interviewing to be the anchor of newsmax then he is the president of the united states. and i hope he's okay. i also do agree -- >> [laughter] >> i do agree with him when he says that the republican party is a party of losers. and i agree with that. so you know, what happened tonight, is normally after you lose an election, you take a moment to self reflect and try to course correct. but what we saw is donald trump and republicans gather in florida and doubled down on the same issues that cost them the election last night. so put point blankly, the maga agenda failed, republicans gathered in florida to double down on the same things that cost them the election. so again, i think it's a very comical comment coming from ramaswamy. >> we've been talking a lot tonight about abortion, the politics of abortion. everybody at this table does not 100% agree, which is okay. i wanted to ask, you when you are sitting in the campaign tonight, texting with everybody, what stuck out to you guys? what are we going to see in an ad? i'm wondering about maybe social security and some other answers on that, but what else stuck out to you as problematic? >> i, mean their whole agenda is problematic. i mean, on abortion, where they're not paying attention to voters in ohio? where they're not paying attention to voters in kentucky? and i also, i mean, if you will indulge me, i heard the panel talking about nikki haley. in fact, i think nikki haley was quite clear in her position on abortion. she said she would sign anything that would come across her desk. she's using, you know, to language. but at the end of the day to say that you would sign anything that comes across your desk when it comes to national abortion ban when you passed an abortion ban in your state with no exceptions is a pretty clear position on the issue, to me. so again, they're completely out of touch with the american public. and on social security and medicare, they're going after the same thing about cutting these issues, which donald trump tried to do year after year in his budget. so again, i think it's just more of them doubling down on an issue that's completely out of touch with the american public and in stark contrast with what president biden is bringing to the table. >> quentin, since have the luxury of having you here, i know you have a lot of georgia expensed. i want to ask about georgia, because a lot of people are freaking out about some recent polls. so tell us a little bit, what's going on on the ground in georgia? are you concerned? what needs to happen there for president biden to win georgia again? >> look look, i think we need to engage voters. and we're up right now on television with ads. we're up trying to figure out the best way to communicate with voters in a very fractured media environment. and that's what this campaign is going to do. we're really excited to continue to, again, do the work in georgia. but polls saying we are down in georgia, i just came out of that cycle,, after running senator warnock's campaign, we are down there the entire time to end a trump endorsed candidate, which is also not going good for the candidate trump decide to endorse in 2023. so i think we're going to stay the course and we'll be just fine in georgia. >> quentin fulks, thank you so much for staying out late with us tonight. i know you have to be up early tomorrow morning. and the panel is coming right back. they're staying with us, after a quick break, we will talk more. ♪ ♪ ♪ [man struggles] ...you should check out inspire. no mask. no hose. just sleep. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with 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(soft music) >> we are back claire mccaskill with, michael steele, symone sanders townsend, and kevin madden. we're having such a good time on this panel. so i just want to, before we wrap up, i want to ask each of you what you think we should be still talking about a week or two from now. and claire, i'm going to start with you. >> i think we will be talking about the choice america has between donald trump and what he represents in terms of a threat to this country versus the competent leadership of joe biden. i think this thing is a sideshow. >> so no one on the stage, it's a sideshow, won't still be talking about it in two weeks? >> over. >> okay, michael? >> i got nothing. >> [laughter] that's never true. >> they're going to be talking about everything. really, the reality, a little bit of what claire is saying is true, we are going to be talking about how this table has still not been reset. and so, everybody is going to be -- >> human narrowed down? >> narrow down on the republican side, and quite honestly, on the democratic side, you'll just need to stop all y'all bellyaching. your man is named biden, get your stuff together, get behind, and get the train moving. because if you, don't you're going to wind up at the wrong station. because the country's going to be down the road appeasing, you're going to be sitting there waiting for people to get on. so i think that's gonna be part of the conversation now, because the reality of it is the tables been set. >> lots of analogies with the train there, i like it. okay, symone, let's do it. >> talking about abortion, i really do. i think the issue of reproductive freedom is something that women and men, people across the country, in red places, purple places, blue places, it has motivated them. and the fact that a day after the republican party apparatus was trounced on this very issue, in many places across the country, and it barely got -- it got 20 minutes of a kind of conversation, but no one was pushed on what it is they believe, i think it begs more conversation. >> yeah, i mean, the lesson from yesterday's abortion is a winning issue for democrats to run on. so the definitely will be. kevin, what do you think? >> so, to that, point i think two weeks from now on all the way through the campaign we are gonna be looking as abortion as the backdrop shaping our politics. so that's definitely the case. but i also think two weeks from now, we are going to be saying this didn't change anything. i don't think the debate changed the momentum. but in that sense, there's a couple candidates up there who really needed to change the momentum, need a huge breakout moment, tim scott, chris christie, they're not getting it. this is going to come down, it's been narrowed down to a sub primary who's going to be the alternative to take on trump, and i think that is firmly right now between desantis and nikki haley's. >> just p3 on that stage. >> we will see. we will be back. claire mccaskill, michael steele, symone sanders-townsend, kevin madden, thank you all for staying up late with me. that does it for me tonight. i will be back here at noon this sunday, and every sunday, at msnbc, and mondays as well at eight pm eastern. but stay right where you are, because msnbc's coverage of the third republican debate starts after a quick break. okay. have heart failure with unresolved symptoms? 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(impressed) huh — that's easy! the all-in-one ucard, only from unitedhealthcare. the power goes out and we still have wifi tto do our homework., and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network. >> everybody okay, everybody all right? everybody make it through okay. yes, we did. good evening and welcome to our special coverage of the third republican presidential primary debate, which was held tonight in downtown miami florida. the debate just wrapped up seconds ago, after two hours onstage. you can see there, the debate hall, some of the candidates, the five candidates who participated, still milling there. people in the audience the milling there. just finishing up within the last few moments. i am rachel maddow, here at msnbc headquarters, with my colleagues, michael wallace, joy reid, stephanie ruhle and lawrence o'donnell. tonight's debate in miami was a home game for one of the candidates, ron desantis. of course, it's the governor of florida, a heck of a lot good that is doing him. a poll out just before the debate shows governor desantis losing his home state, at least as far as the polling says by 39 points against his constituent, florida man and former president donald trump, who was not at tonight's debate, just like the first two debates, former president donald trump was a no-show again tonight. he was about ten miles away, holding his own competing event which was kind of the standard trump eventing. tonight's event, in downtown miami was the first republican debate not hosted by fox news. it was hosted by our nbc news colleague's lester holt and kristen walker, along with conservative talk radio host hugh hewitt. right at the gates, the matter raiders asked candidates about a question that a lot of them had been reluctant to answer or had a hard time coming up with an answer to, the very basic simple question, when the polling looks like this, why should you be the nominee, and not donald trump? >> donald trump is a lot different biden he was in 2016. he owes it to you to be on the stage and explain why he should get another chance. he should explain why he did not have mexico pay for the border wall. he should explain why he racked up so much the. he should explain why he did not drain the swamp, and he said republicans got tired of winning but we saw last night, i am sick of republicans losing. >> the republicans losing team was a recurring one tonight, which is a little awkward for republican candidate debate. but ron desantis there was referring to the fact that the next debate happened just 24 hours after a bang up election night for democrats. democrats and liberals effectively won all over the country last night. a democrat when the governor's race in red kentucky. democrats took both houses of the legislator in virginia. ohioans voted resoundingly to enshrine abortion rights and the states constitution. abortion is a driving force behind democratic victories by around the country right. now andy candidates onstage tonight in miami were asked what the path forward should be for the republican party on this issue, as they keep getting bashed at the polls on this issue, over and over again in blue states, in red states, every time and every way, the question gets asked. some of the candidates were quite gymnastic and avoiding specific answers to that question. south carolina senator tim scott was not one of them. he just jumped right in and said that he wants a national abortion ban. >> senator scott, i would like you to weigh in. how do you see the path forward? what do you make of what ambassador ali says? you see this as a consensus issue? >> i am 100% pro-life. i have a 100% pro-life voting record. i would as president of the united states, have a 15-week national limit. >> stop saying ban, no he slim, but that is the only adaptation that you have seen on that issue. another team of tonight's debate, back for an encore from the last debate, was just the deep palpable, withering discussed that candidate evac ramaswamy seems to inspire from his fellow candidates. he makes them say things that you can't imagine they ever set before in their lives. he makes them make facial expressions on the stage that you're quite sure that they don't know that they're making in public. he really brings out a sight of them that makes news, frankly. here he was with former south carolina governor nikki haley, on a section of the debate about whether the chinese owned app tiktok should be banned. i should mention, this back and forth ended with one of the candidates saying something i have never heard ever in any debate that i have ever covered and all my years on this earth. >> i want to laugh at why if you really did not answer this question, which is about looking families in the eye. in the last debate, she made fun of me for actually joining tiktok. well, her own daughter sexy is in the after a long time. you might want to take care of your family first. >> the my daughter out of your voice. >> you might want to check on your own daughter. the next generation of americans are using, and that is actually the point. [applause] >> the ever supports cropping up, that's fine. here's the truth -- >> what she said there was, you are just scum. i think if they all said what they really meant, this could be a lot more clarifying. wow, never seen that in any debate at any level, and i have covered some weird debates at weird levels. but for all of that, this same question hangs over the debate as all the others. do the fights between these fine folks matter? is this a real part at the republican party reckoning, with who their nominee for the president will be next year, whether the fact that former president donald trump is running 40 plus, in some cases, 50 points ahead of all of them in the polls? nicole wallace, i will turn to you first. >> oh, god. >> because you are more reserved than usual on this issue, on watching this debate, i feel like you are more contained, less valuable than i usually see. >> do i have to answer? >> >> he thought the pitcher to, but he should. >> i wanna say what i really think, that will answer your last question. they don't matter. they don't matter. when i sat down, i said the most exciting part for me is seeing who's there, because i had no idea who is running second to ten. for me, it's exciting to see who is running second, third, fourth, i had no idea who would be there. it does not matter the republican primary voter. take us out of it. nikki haley called, the other guy, scum, okay, but the republican primary voters has weighed in, and they are not into any of these people. they want trump, and they want trump by legit numbers than i think anyone has ever been ahead this many weeks before the first primary contests tonight. i don't know that in modern history, anyone has ever been 50, 60, 39 points ahead of the next person at the november mark, ahead of the first primary ever. >> then why aren't any of them going for the jugular, when it comes to him? the guy was sitting in a courtroom, humiliating himself on monday. he faces 91 counts. they just lost three times, you're right, he is far, far ahead, so for anyone of them, their only shot is to go for him and none of them did. >> that's because they think, they're probably not going to land that shot, and their future republican politics is with this policy, with this group of voters that only like i. if they are seen as because that guy, then there are. -- their only shot is to go for him and none of them did. >> that's because they think, they're probably not going to land that shot, and their future republican politics is with this policy, with this group of voters that only like i. if they are seen as because that guy, then there are. toast >> then why did we waste 20 minutes having this subset they've conversation about foreign policy, or some of them made coaching arguments, and we're all forgetting the fact that when it comes to foreign policy, at best, donald trump cozies up to vladimir putin, writes love letters to kim jong-un and most recently, set hezbollah is really darn smart. >> two comments, one, if you could bottle the contempt that nikki haley feels for evac ramaswamy, i feel like you could power a small town with the hate. she hate that guy. >> she hates, yeah. >> oh, my god. you can feel it through the screen. that is one thing, i would say. i think they all don't like him, but she really don't like him. the second thing is, i sort of felt like nikki haley and chris christie are not running for president now. they are sort of beseeching the republican party at the point after trump to come back to, to come back into its body, get there so back antibody, because their whole composition is so disconnected from trump's existence on this earth, they are almost normal. it's really jarring to hear them both sound like normie republicans and a rope in which nobody wants that in that party. >> or maybe they will someday. >> sunday, i feel like chris christie, even his appearance in public, he is begging the party to come back. i don't think he is succeeding. he is going nowhere in the pulse. it could be like a ticket together on some members. >> lawrence o'donnell? >> i must, it's my turn. >> everybody has to actually speak. you can't say i am not -- his a thing, it's not really what i think. yet the so you think. >> let me check my notes. here's my notes. my notes. it was really just that one word, those are my notes. it's easy to remember this is by the way, the first republican debate that i have watched. luckily, i have been working at ten pm during the previous republican debates, and i did not have to participate in any of this. i now see that vivek is the mvp of the panel for this reason. he makes everyone else look better than they were ever going to look because, he is not just the most hated person by everyone on the stage, he's the most unhittable character who's ever had a role in the presidential debating in either party. so she's helping them by being up there. he's making nikki haley look better, look stronger, making everybody up their -- >> humanizing -- >> all of them better. this is the debate for, you know, in case trump chokes on a cheeseburger. that is what this debate is. if somehow, trump falls out, it's going to be desantis or haley. >> this is the question? are they just waiting for him to die, go to jail or drop out, because no one's going after him? >> no, fame is its own currency, politics, especially republican politics, as trump saw. vivek is running for nothing but fame. chris christie wishes to push up his fame, see if there might be more money in some sort of vacancy contra costa this. and i think haley and desantis are the two who think maybe we have a future for years from now, maybe, so we want to play credibly here. and tim scott is going to go back to his quiet life after this, and he is going to be a little bit more famous, and that might help him with talk radio gig or something like that. >> i think the debate is probably irrelevant for the reason stated, unless something happens. out of the three that we have seen so far, it was the more serious debate. we heard some of the first policy criticisms of trump as mentioned, maybe because it's not scary to say that that is high, you can walk it back. they are certainly not dealing with the ethical and legal feelings of donald trump as alleged in so many forms, but we heard more than. i thought the foreign policy was interesting as well. this is funny because, we think our colleagues are great. they did a good job, but even if i was trying to be as objective as possible, i think it's fair to say that there was kind of a more space for a wider range of important issues in america and international in the last debates. full disclosure though, -- i think that is true. we had this conversation that went across two important, very tense war zones, and i think i'd be also heard policy from republicans there who clearly were still trying to figure out, how do you santafee with this somewhat allegedly strong foreign policy lingo while also saying, desantis has it back out hear as a former military -- were not going to get involved. we're not going to get more involved overseas, there's this sort of tough sunday but anti interventionists mode. i don't know what that means to anyone, or if anyone cares, or if these people are going to be in foreign policy or be president, based on what we can tell, two months out, but i thought that was shocking. the last point, the most obvious is, these five voices matter a lot less than all of the voices of so many voters who rejected everything that their party is offering us a day. i'm sure we'll talk about the night. donald trump had to lie and deny about what happened in 2020 and a lot of people have burned up capital joining those lies. some of them will be helped and a trial in march. they underperformed in the midterms. they got slant is today in ohio and virginia. the election denialism, not only is false, a sort of has not been getting high on their own supply. i thought we saw on the abortion discussion, i don't think there is credibility on the lawful nice. but the lofton's, some have been for abortion bans and tried to put another way. i thought that was interesting, again, may not matter, on lawrence is blank no path. but we understand how they want to proceed. >> on your point, the republican position on abortion is more unpopular than the iraq war ever was. just the door of something universally agreed to that had been very unpopular forever. the 85% of all americans for abortion answer instances, not one of those people is speaking to 85% of all americans, not one. and the person that inch the closest was nikki haley and she got a roaring, thunderous applause from the republican primary debate. >> she said i respect people that are pro-choice. that are pro-choice. >> i was going to say dissenting. the one person that seems to be at least trying to drag the party toward something sin on abortion is nikki haley. she said that, essentially, i don't judge how people vote. i am not happy that people in some states decided to affirm abortion rights, but i don't touch them based on how they are voting. that was at least until she was reaching some sort of consensus, but you go all the way to the other end of it, where tim scott is, like ben abortion right now, i'm not going to let californians decide their own lives. yet chris christie make the coherent point that all of this time, conservatives have been yelling that it should be the states that the site on abortion, and that is -- subtly, they like to a national ban. there were all over the place. i think kristi and haley at least sound like they hear what is happening, the arrested them seemed completely tone-deaf. >> can i ask you as a veteran of republican campaigns when roe v. wade was in place, it seems that the abortion issue in those primaries was more stable, and there was a much closer set of agreed upon ways of talking about it, and so, was roe v. wade, in effect, protecting republican nominees and republican candidates from this kind of exposure that we're seeing now? >> of course, they were straight jacketed, because it was reprehensible to deny exceptions in cases of rape and incest and the life of the mother. it was never considered by the two republican nominees that i worked for, and on the other side was roe, which was decided by justices appointed by democratic republican presidents perceived as this marketing. i worked for a very pro-life president. our for a pro-life candidate for president. there was this policy and language straitjacket were you never, ever contemplated denying the exceptions, which are on the table for republicans and a lot of the state hands, alone a descriptions for the life of the mother. 93% opposition. republicans put themselves on the other three side of the 92%, and they wonder why they lost everything. >> in terms of their political skill in talking about it though, i think you're right, they actually have no idea because the straitjackets retire, they have no idea how to talk about it. there is this proverbial dog catching the car, they've no idea what to do with the, no idea how to talk about it, and the position that the party as found itself, and that their state legislators are imposing and stay out there stay at the state is so wildly unpopular that this backlash will be knocking them back for a long time, it is going to be a long time before they figure it out. >> the public sees through the slice. the whole lie was, these justices saying we're not doing anything right away. they said it under oath, when justice then judge kavanaugh was not crying, he was repeating under oath, we are not going to change anything right away. settle the law, super precedent. >> susan collins said yupe -- >> will take your word. you don't need a law degree to understand what is going on with the lies in your own body, and i think people see through it. they see through it in kansas and ohio, and then when you add to joyce's point, they came to the debate saying, even if we do this, it will still be at the local level, so you have a second say at this. no, that was another lie, and we have seen that. and ohio, what happened yesterday is that ohio's voters in a state that voted for trump twice said, no thanks, we reject this entire republican maga approach, and we want roe level protections enshrined in the same constitution for good. that is a big breakthrough, and that is what they are on the heels about. >> it's 20% more popular than biden, so biden is dealing with 20% on top of wherever he is, if you take that across the state. >> by the way, they're holding this debate in the state where on desantis was a nonentity, again in this debate, never made a dent, but he had pushed to, and the dead of night, he signed it ad midnight. that is how proud he was of the six-week abortion ban -- >> a total ban. >> and is also hurting the governor of iowa who endorsed, it, also has a six-week ban, it's dragging both of them numbers down, he did know how to address it. >> he did it to glenn youngkin yesterday. >> he did it to glenn youngkin yesterday. he's not learning what the voters are telling them. you know they understand it's bad, because they kept on one big lie, which is that democrats want abortion up until birth, which is not a thing. there is no such thing as abortion up until birth. that does not exist. but they all say it. they keep repeating it. i think even chris christie said it. i don't like the fact that -- >> in new jersey, chris christie says it's happening in new jersey every day. >> that's infanticide. no one gets to nine months pregnant. i have had three humans. you did not get to nine months pregnant and then decide, you know what, i change my mind, i don't want to be pregnant. that is absurd. it's actually libelous to women. it makes women sound stupid and craven and evil. the idea that you think that women having abortions at nine months means you don't understand science, you don't understand women's bodies, don't understand physiology -- >> and you think voters are stupid. >> i do think your voters are stupid. i think there's something interesting in these politics. no >> we're all talking about the committee with which voters are speaking on this issue, and i think that what we are seeing tonight is that republicans have to figure out how to talk about it. the republican who was trying on the stage tonight to speak about it in the way that was most relate-able and less offensive to most of the people listening to her was nikki haley, but what was after -- her piece on it, what was the very next thing she did? she attacked tim scott for not having support at the national 15-week ban. so she is trying to say, oh, no, we're going to try to do this differently in all the states, and we should stop being so divisive and don't try to impose your will on everybody else. and, you, tim scott, you can't be president because you did not sign on to a national ban. >> there is a very important point that you never hear in the presidential debates in either party. she raised the 60 vote threshold. it's hugely important, saying, none of this abortion stuff can happen federally, because you're never going to get 60 votes and the united states senate for any of this crazy stuff that these people are talking about, which also protects her then from not saying that she is going to do one of this crazy, federal laws. the others are all running for king and saying, i can do this, i can't do this. nikki haley is the only one who mentions, oh, yeah there is a senate and you need 60 votes for pretty much everything. >> you know i think you may have to get out. i've watched this all come in, watching it on the air last night, it's clear that pro-life trump voting republicans are voting against the pro-life movement stuff. you don't get to beshear's numbers in kentucky without some of the sheers voters who saw the ads from a rape survivor, who had voted for trump for president, voting for a democrat who supports abortion access. what republicans have done, what they have said to the electorate is not just we will outlaw it, we will make it a crime. even republican voters are voting against the abortion. ohio went down, again, 20 points ahead of the biden number, voted to enshrine abortion rights in the constitution. not only was i not sure that would pass, i never thought it would pass with 20% more support than supports biden. what the voters have heard, and the problem is that they have now branded themselves as criminalizing health care. >> and criminalizing women and having women arrested. by the way, i would argue that mississippi, which has been written off by democrats for decades, that race, brandan presley came within four or five points. he is a staunchly, antiabortion democrat. he is very conservative. i would argue, had you combined that last name, being elvis late term abortion. let's make sure that we encourage adoptions, good quality adoptions. let's make sure that we make contraception accessible. let's make sure that none of the state laws put a woman in jail or give her the death penalty for getting an abortion. let's focus on how to save as many babies as we can and support as many moms as we can and stop the judgment. we don't need to divide america over this issue anymore. the power goes out and we still have wifi to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. >> i think you owe it to the home of the xfinity 10g network. american people, nikki, to at least -- this one time, condemn, at least condemn their banning of christians. >> mr. ramaswamy, thank you. >> i am telling you, putin and president xi are salivating at the thought that someone like that could become president. they would love -- >> the fact of the matter, she does not answer -- >> this is what i will tell you. first of all -- >> you are driving us into china's hands because of these policies. >> first of all, the ambassador has the floor. >> the first thing i will tell you is, we all remember what that thug did when he invaded ukraine. we all know that half a million people have died because of putin, and here is a freedom loving, pro-american country that is fighting for its survival and its democracy. no, i don't think we should give them cash. i think we should get them the equipment and ammunition to win. >> nikki haley, one of the five candidates onstage tonight at the third republican debate in downtown miami. former governor haleyi, foreign -- they're making a strong case for your support for ukraine and also advocating that we stop funding at the same time. that was one at the repeated sharp interactions between her and vivek ramaswamy. i was looking at my notes ahead of the debate and noting that mr. ramaswamy had publicly promised in this debate that he would be unhinged. that was his promise ahead of time. he came right out at the gate, at the top, attacking kristen welker, and then attacked nikki haley, called her dick cheney. >> shout out to tucker carlson, elon musk, and joe rogan, those are his homeboys. that was so terribly cringy. >> after he shouted out those guys and insulted the female moderator, and insulted the one female candidate onstage, i thought -- he just bowed to joe rogan, and then insulted the first woman that he could see, and then insulted the second woman. i consulted my notes, he has run out of women. but yet, he pulled a rabbit out at the half. he decided to attack nikki haley's daughter, who was not onstage or in the room, as far as we know. i, mean i kind of wondered who he would hit next. >> i kind of feel like he is not running for president, he's running to replace ben shapiro. >> i think he wants a podcast. >> i think it's clear that he feels he could challenge the far right wing podcast crew, he thinks he can get one. the problem is, he is so annoying. no one is going to want to listen to a podcast for an hour, listening to that man speak. >> i think he's going to be a debate club, tiktok influencer. you know how there is -- >> he hates the tiktok. >> no, he is on tiktok. >> he'll be an influencer for debate club boys. i feel like his age range, targeted age range, is like tented at the, maybe, and then he starts itching up. this is not going to help my social life. >> he pretends to be on the business side. he keeps bringing up this ceo label. i can tell you, nikki haley as a lot of wall street donors. they detest him. they detest his brand, so when you look at her rage against him, she feels personally, but she's got a lot of donors behind her telling her keep pushing. tonight, a former cfo for the fortune 500 company -- texted me during the comments. he said, i can't even look at this guy for one more moment. he said, he's like a russian spy that worked as a country can -- that site presents them self, and you wonder, who are his voters? >> i think his whole shtick, which is extremely thirsty and obviously trolling, also is an echo of other problems that trump has caused that may outlast them in the republican party. >> the cheeseburger thing? >> who would have predicted or seen if you look back six or eight years ago that being donald trump's loyal vice president for four years on everything except actually joining a coup that is now a federal trial, would not help you last as long as being the kind of chief content officer wannabe that trump and the reality show and internet ding offers. that is what that is. pence is gone, and vivek is here, as you say, the tiktok podcast fusion project. >> but the other piece of it, i think it does demonstrate the point that, what donald trump has done to the republican party, is he has turned it into pure performance. there is just a performative version of mini-trump, other than haley and christie are trying to be. with him, it is the idea that he says that he is disgraced billionaire -- or this great businessman, the way that donald trump does, but in reality, if you really look at his business, the thing that he bill after getting the george soros big brother, george soros's big brother's grants, which he accepted willingly, even though he had money, it looks more like a puppet gnome than it does a successful pharmaceutical company. -- >> this whole argument, america wants a big successful ceo, the last time a truly successful businessman ran for president, his name was mitt romney, and he was a really successful businessman, and he lost. >> can i say something though? i actually think that ramaswamy is a symptom of something else. the weakness of the rest of them. in old times, he would be gone, because he was a clown. it actually speaks to the weakness of the other people on the stage, that he is still there. >> we're going to be right back. up next, more on the democrats'big wins in ohio, kentucky and virginia, the great steve kornacki will join us here. chris says will be with us in a moment. we had a lot to get to, stay with us. you deserve better than that. i'm hungry, i'm in a hurry, i don't have time to make anything healthy. you could if you had a blendjet. blendjet? it's the portable blender that makes the healthy choice the most convenient choice. i don't know. it seems like a hassle. hahaha! wrong. just pour in some milk, add some frozen fruit, and bam! you've got a nutritious and delicious smoothie. mmm! that is good. you're welcome, sad office guy. get yours today at blendjet.com are we in in an ad? we sure are. >> the third republican presidential debate has just wrapped tonight in miami. at least one candidate declared war on iran. at least two declared war on mexico. that kind of thing does not even make news anymore. it remains to be seen whether any of the candidates will see a change in their overall fortunes based on the performance in this debate. to the extent that there is any emerging consensus view in the response, is that maybe they think that nikki haley has done herself the most favor of any of the five candidates? i don't know, that was also the consensus view at the last debate, and the candidate who actually got the largest polling bump out at the last debate was one that was not there, donald trump. they've got this what you will. heading into tonight though, let's just have a look at where they are in the standings polling wise, vis-ã -vis the all but prohibitive front runner, the former president. joining us now from the big board is nbc's steve kornacki. can you help us rationalize the conundrum? >> i was going to say, this has been the supply of the debates. really, this has been the main plot at the debates. you have the overwhelming front runner in national and early state polling who has refused to participate, now in three debates. all sorts of predictions when donald trump started skipping debates back in august that he was going to pay a price. let's take a look here. this is the national polling average on the morning of august 23rd. that was the day at the first republican presidential debate. of course, donald trump is not there. it was the one in milwaukee trump's 0. 55% nationally, towering above the rest, but you heard, all sorts of views, his critics and opponents say, if he does not show up, the voters will take this as a sign of disrespect. they'll be getting free airtime to all his opponents to define themselves, to define him. he's going to regret this. he regretted it before by skipping a debate in 2016. that is what we have heard, a lot course that day. the main one off that night, another one went off and september, now, we have had this morning, coming into the debate this morning, what prices trump paid, as you just said, none. none whatsoever. the national polling average this morning, it was at almost 61% of the vote. ron desantis, now participating in his third debate, picked up by eight tenths of a point. we do see nikki haley, she's got good reviews for her debate performance, as she was 2.8 at the start of the debates, 7. 9 this morning, that's the biggest jump you see from anyone, the biggest positive jump you see from anyone who has participated in the debates. we'll see if she continues to get traction here. but what i think is more striking is, trump had 60. 8% are now. if you combine the five people that you just saw on stage tonight, their combined support is 32 and a half percent. so you saw a lot of squabbling between those candidates on the stage tonight, a lot of attempts to differentiate themselves from one another, but i think, honestly, all of them, what they really need, and they may not get, and it certainly does not look like they will get, they need an opportunity to get trump on the stage with them to make contracts, definitions with him present. trump seems to recognize that. he is strategically staying away. i think the question tonight is, did anyone do anything, or will there be any polling fallout from the debate tonight that will get trump to reconsider the posture? really, we talk about what it would take to win a debate for these candidates, that would be a win for these candidat kornacki, on news that do now said he will not participate in the next one, and so, this is one of those moments where your lips to god's ears, really. >> for a second, i thought you're going to say, he was going to, and we will have a moment. >>our lives don > there is a risk of injury. >> that guy played okay, i guess, i don't know. it is like preseason. everyone is making the motions a dating, without the stakes adapting, basically. so, look, in an alternate universe in which, it is nikki haley versus donald trump, maybe even from the beginning, i can kind of come up with a colorable claim that maybe that is a race. i think she is a fairly at the politician. i think just ability to draw from some of the folks who have been disaffected that we see coming up in election after election, particularly in the suburbs to the republican party, particular trump and the market, i can see that being the universe, but we live in that universe. and so -- they all made the strategic decision to not really go after him. so, i think they are all hoping that some comet falls with this guy. >> if that is the point that steph made at the beginning of our conversation, that for the polling universe, to be the world -- the real world in which we are living, earth 1, why is it that none of them are going after them directly? i said, i think it's because in that universe, you can't afford to be an anti trump person because of never having another day of success in republican politics, but, what other choice that they have? i think also about, like, i think about the sag-aftra results tonight, the old labor which side are you on question, right? the elemental logic of which side are you on, you want to polarize the issue. you don't want people in the middle. one of the things you do as an effective organizer is to drive that wedge to polarize people. which i do? one on the side of us or them? trump has effectively done that in the republican party. he has driven that wedge. he has understood that is his role in the party in some ways, is to draw the line between anti trump or pro trump. that's the only dividing line, it's a line to polarize on. he has so successfully done it and there is no evading it. if you're on the wrong side of it, you're dead. >> -- why would nikki haley and ron desantis, who are both young, just sit it out until 2028 instead of putting themselves in the mouth of the lion, doing absolutely nothing, running in circles? why are they even in this game until he's done? >> maybe it's a heart attack. he's 77 years old. i think they're just waiting around for somebody to -- >> a problem of getting in, that decision has to be made before you know how vulnerable or strong trump is. so if someone were to say to you, there is a candidate, could be the front runner, but it is a very strong likelihood he's going to be indicted four times, you might want to get a campaign ready to run against him. these decisions to run were all made before he was indicted once. so they had good reason to think this could be a frail candidacy for donald trump as the indictments mounted up. they now have information that they didn't have at the beginning. that's 60% thing did not exist in their calculations at the beginning. it does now. so all you are looking at now is the planning of their exits and when they get out. a guy like pence is old enough and wise enough to know, i'm getting out before i have one penny of campaign debt. that's the key. he didn't want presidential campaign debt following him around for the rest of his life. these other candidacies, it's really all they need is a bus ticket to the next town. these are pretty cheap candidacies. >> by that standard, what makes it so interesting to watch jack smith, is that jack smith is what campaigns used to be. he's rapidly responding to events as they transpire. these campaigns seem totally incapable of responding to events is they actually are. they certainly got ian exactly in the way that you described it, but he has now been indicted four times. they are candidacies, and if they had any ability could be about taking him out. he was takeout-able at the beginning, and certainly they could have reorder oriented their candidacies as quickly as the prosecutors oriented. >> we decided because chris christie stepped forward. they said okay, he wants to run that experiment, okay, run experience. we saw what happened with christie, we went from two and a half percent to one. so therefore they are looking at the 60% trump voter and saying at any future point in my republican life i have to get those votes. therefore i can ever attacked that guy because i may someday ask for those votes from the people who love that guy. >> much more of our special coverage still to come. we'll be right back. hi, i'm ben and i've lost 60 pounds on golo. (guitar music) with other programs i've tried in the past they were unsustainable, just too restrictive. with golo i can enjoy my food and the fear and guilt of eating is gone. >> i am asking for your vote. i will be a nominee that will be able to win the election. i will be a leader you can be proud of, and as your president, i will not let you down. god bless you. >> governor ron desantis has been hit at least in the on night commentariat for his physical awkwardness, clearly working on some of his ticks and affects tonight, but just kind of picking up some new ones that are getting just as much negative attention as his old ones. joining us now from the side of tonight's debate, is former congressman from -- congressman carmelo, so happy you are able to be there on site tonight. thanks very much for joining us. >> thank you, rachel, good to be with you. >> our general take from watching here through the tv screen is that none of these guys has done enough to change the basic course of this race, and being behind 40 points, it's a steep time, but i think that we generally felt like governor haley is the person probably who comported herself the best and it yourself the most favors. didn't feel that way in the room, to you, watching her in person? >> yeah, definitely, rachel. i agree. i don't think there was any major shift in the dynamics, not even in this race for second place. but nikki haley came across as competent, and she was able to fend off a lot of the attacks that vivek won ramaswamy over swept when he mentioned her daughter the whole debate booed him where as for most of the debate people who supported each candidate we are clapping or booing, but in this case ramaswamy managed to unite everyone against him for that. even then it's a race that was gonna stay as it is. now it's an important race for second place because on the surface this is a very stable, trump versus biden rematch. but there's a lot going on under his service in both parties, so this isn't irrelevant. friends in nbc news did a wonderful job of moderating this debate, it wasn't a circus like atmosphere like the previous. two >> in terms of whose stakes were the highest and the different kinds of dynamics happening beneath the surface, it's a different kind of debate for governor desantis, if only because it's on his home turf. he's in a particularly hillary ding humiliating situation where donald trump is visiting by 30 point in his own state, and it's a home state debate. but you can see the desantis machine running new software, trying new ways of speaking, trying new ways of carrying himself, trying i think more humanizing ways of addressing some policy issues. do you feel like you are seeing him improve just in terms of what it takes technically to be a candidate? >> rachel, i think he still got some room to grow, but i think this was ron desantis's best performance, maybe because it's a little warmer here in miami. he seemed more at ease and he has in the past. desantis really needed to separate himself from haley at this point, try to gain some ground, establish himself is the number one trump alternative. that didn't happen. having said that, i think both him and -- turned inadequate performances. they address the issues fairly substantively. i think nikki haley is the only one who understands the peril that the abortion issue represents for the republicans. her and donald trump, who subside steps it every time he's asked. but i see these candidates did what they had to do. some of the lower tier candidates didn't do anything to breakthrough to kind of catch up to haley and desantis. it looks like it's desantis and haley for race for second place which, given the dynamics between the surface, isn't he relevant. >> former's congressman carlos curbelo, at the site of tonight's debate in miami. congressman, great to have you tonight. invaluable. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> we've got much more ahead here tonight. our friend jen psaki will be joining us in the next hour. stay with us. we'll be right back.

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