Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240702

>> it's up to you lawrence. >> yes, it's completely up to you. you must discuss a lot about vivek ramaswamy. >> now, rachel, i've spent the weekend curled up with this amazing new york times number one bestseller, debuting at number one on the bestseller list. and i have so many questions. and i was kind of wondering if maybe tonight, you could come over? >> yes. >> okay, here's what we'll do, to give you time to come over. here is what we are going to do. we are going to do a first segment with mary trump's reaction to her uncle being out of control in court today. and then we are going to talk about rachel maddow's number one best selling, new york times number one bestseller, debuts a number, one prequel, an american fight against fascism. and what i'm gonna do, rachel, is it is going to be a discussion, but i am going to be selling the thing. no, but it's specific. i am going to be selling the audio book. and you know why i want to push the audio book. we will discuss all of that when you make your way over here. >> you are very, kind i will see you in a minute. >> thank you, rachel. >> thanks. >> well if you are wondering how much special treatment donald trump gets as a defendant, the answer is more special treatment than any defendant in american history, much more. the proof of that, once in history level of special treatment came at a manhattan courtroom today, when the judge presiding over the civil fraud case against defendant donald trump said something that no judge has ever said before. speaking directly to defendant trump who was sitting under oath in the witness stand. the judge said to him, you can attack me. in the 400 years of courtroom history in america, dating back to the colonial courts, no judge has ever said that in court to any defendant or any witness. until today. that is how much special treatment donald trump is getting. on the witness stand today, in that fraud case, donald trump did not wait for the judge's permission to attack him, donald trump began attacking the judge right away. and he attacked new york 20 general from the witness stand, something no witness has ever done before in a new york courtroom. in one of the judges many failed attempts to get donald trump to answer the questions being put to him, by an assistant attorney general. the judge told donald trump, you can attack me, you can do whatever you want, but answer the questions. donald trump did the first two of those things. he attacked the judge, he did whatever he wanted. but he didn't do the third thing. he did not answer the questions. and it does not matter. donald trump's lawyers did not ask for a jury trial in the case, which doesn't prevent donald trump from constantly complaining that there is no jury. deciding whether donald trump and his sons committed fraud in falsely exaggerating the value of their holdings was entirely up to the judge in the case who has already reached a verdict that donald trump and his two sons did indeed commit fraud. the proceeding going on now in the courtroom is about nothing other than a big penalty should the judge impose on donald trump and his sons and the family business? as has been said many times on this program, no sane criminal defense lawyer whatever allow donald trump to testify under oath in court. but this is not a criminal trial. and that is why you are seeing donald trump testify. which we will not see in any of the for criminal trials donald trump is facing. because this is a civil trial. the defendant can be called to the witness stand by either side in the case. so the attorney general has called donald trump as a witness to show the judge that donald trump was actively involved in what the judge has already ruled was a fraud. but the judge already knows that donald trump was involved in that fraud based on donald trump's under oath pretrial deposition and the rest of the evidence in the case. today, the judge made it clear to donald trump that if he refused to answer a question by making a campaign speech instead, as donald trump did many times, the judge would then take a negative inference from donald trump's refusal to answer. and other, words if the attorney general asked donald trump if he approved of a false evaluation, and donald trump rambled on and on and refused to answer that question, the judge couldn't infer that donald trump was simply trying not to admit the truth that he did knowingly approve false valuations. donald trump made some admissions under oath that were lost to many observers of the trial in all of the bluster of the day. when asked why the square footage of his new york apartment was listed as triple the actual size, donald trump admitted under oath that he exaggerated square footage created a false evaluation, trump said the number was too high. the attorney general introduced i. d.'d to donald trump's florida residence, which he operates as a private club because he cannot afford to live there without the income from the private club. the deed to that property says the club and trump intend to forever extinguish their right to development or use the property for any purpose other than club use. that is why the actual value of the property is severely limited. the deed severely limits possible purposes of sale. it cannot be sold for a higher value purpose. when confronted with the deed, limiting the value of that property, witnessed trump seized on one word indeed, the word intend. trump said intend doesn't mean we will do it. because donald trump is one of the very stupidest people ever to be charged with business fraud, and because his demonstrably ineffectual lawyers obviously do not have the skills to prepare their client for even the simplest and most obvious questions, donald trump incriminated himself and his children with the only one word answer that he gave all day. question, who within the trump organization was responsible for preventing and detecting fraud? answer, everybody. and there, donald trump destroyed any shred of defense in the case for himself and his codefendants, donald trump jr. and eric trump. everybody, you could spend weeks trying to think of a stupid or answer than that. and you cannot come up with one. now, remember, going into his testimony today, the verdict was already rendered on the fraud that donald trump and his sons committed. the question now is only, will they face the maximum penalty for that fraud, which could include fines of up to $250 million, donald trump's job as a witness today was to give the judge a reason, and the reason to lower the penalty against him and his sons. his job was to make the judge think the fraud wasn't donald trump's fault, it wasn't donald trump jr.'s fault, it wasn't eric trump's fault. it was the accountants fault, or something like that. that wouldn't eliminate the, penalty but it could significantly softened it. and instead, donald trump continued his war with the judge who is going to decide the fate of donald trump's business. and donald trump incriminated himself and his kids. question, who within the trump organization was responsible for preventing and detecting fraud, answer, everybody. lawyers dream of moments like that in court. where you get the witness on the stand to things he is the smartest guy in the room, which is something only do people think in courtrooms, and he gives you a fast and loose answer to the key question in the case. good lawyers never make the key question the first or the last question. they never let it stand up like that. they folded into the middle of the witness examination. and try to use it when they think the witness feels most comfortable. most in control. and so, a couple of hours after the judge told donald trump, you can do whatever you want, donald trump stupidly felt comfortable and in control. and then said the stupidest possible thing he could say as a witness me. everybody. everybody was in on the fraud. that was donald trump's testimony today. about his family business. leading off our discussion tonight is adam klasfeld, he's the senior legal correspondent for the messenger, he was in the courtroom for today's proceedings. adam, we rely on your courtroom tweets through the day. they basically work as a transcript light red eventually get the official transcript. and i have to tell, you yours matched word for word what we found in the official transcript. it, when you sort through all the crazy bluster. which is kind of easy to do when the dust clears and it's all over. donald trump did not do himself any good at all in that room today? >> absolutely, lawrence. and i would go even a step further with the point that you are making about that passage of who's responsible for a fraud, which is everybody. there is another key issue at the trial, which was the awareness and responsibility for the statements of financial condition that trump and the trump organization provided to. banks and insurers, that is the heart of the case. and if you remember, when we were talking about eric trump's testimony, and don jr.'s testimony, their testimony was, in the case of don jr., basically passing it off to you the accountants and the lawyers and for eric trump his answer was i don't know anything about it. trump can concede it. it goes to the very issue you were talking about earlier, about the pervasiveness of the you can attack me. and it seemed for a while but there was a moment that the judge was threatening to cut trump's testimony short if he didn't go forward and give straightforward answers. and the a. g. did not push that issue, he did not actually object to the long winded answers, he lets trump talk. and in scrutinizing the answers, watching the dust settle, and inspecting the transcripts, we can see perhaps a little bit of the strategy as to why. >> yeah, it certainly lets donald trump get more and more relaxed and let him feel more and more confident. and that is exactly where the attorney general wanted him? >> that's absolutely the case. and you can see throughout the questioning, now, this happened in the morning when trump started calling the judge unfair and arguing with the judge about the rolling. in the afternoon session, he continues going after the judge. as you, noted has great power real ding over whether trump will be forced to pay hundreds of millions of dollars in ill gotten gains, will be forced to be put out of business permanently,. barred from serving as a director or an officer of the new york corporation. he goes and attacks the judge again. and without any penalty, in that comfort, comes the testimony that could prompt him later, particularly ones this goes on appeal. and the judges earlier ruling, the ruling shutting down his new york business empire is scrutinized. >> adam crosswell, thank you very much for your reporting as always. >> thank you very much for having me. >> joining us now is mary trump, clinical psychologist and niece of donald trump, she is the author of the reckoning, our nation's trauma and finding a way to heal. mary, thank you very much for joining us tonight. when i saw the imagery of donald trump in the courtroom today. i thought of you. let's take a look at that. i was wondering, what she thought when you saw this image of donald trump. these are the cameras that are allowed in the court before the proceeding officially gets underway, just so they can establish a photographic image of the room for audiences. what do you see when you see that man sitting at that table? >> i felt the need to tell him that spouting is not an affirmative defense. but he clearly didn't get the message. he probably thinks he is looking stern, and he is staring everyone down. but he does look like a disgruntled toddler. and i think you've covered, really thoroughly, the fact that his lack of intelligence has gotten him in trouble in his testimony. but the other thing, one other thing that has is his miss perception of the kind of control he has. which is to say, he thinks he is in control, but he is not in control at all. >> yeah, and that seems to be something that the attorney general actually wanted to encouraging him as a witness, the feeling, please be comfortable, please feel like you are in control of this. because then you just won't see us coming when we have these questions where you will incriminate literally everybody in the family business. >> yes, it was masterfully done. and it was at first very frustrating that the judge wasn't intervening in any way. i think anybody else would have been slapped with contempt charges and would be sitting in a county jail right now. but as you mentioned, the prosecutor clearly wanted donald to feel comfortable and confident in saying whatever he felt the need to say. and i think that that aligns really well with donald's unconscious impulse to twist what is actually going on. he has been accused on one level of being an entirely unsuccessful businessman. he is accused of being a total failure. and in order to counter that, he needs to start bragging about how much he is worth. and he needs to start insulting people and feel like he is dominating. and as you alluded to, it's made him walk into every single trap that was set for him, and probably some that weren't even set intentionally. >> i have never seen a defense lawyer do a worst job in any form of litigation then the trump lawyers. they are just the worst i've ever seen, utterly incompetent. but they also attacked the judge, they refer reverentially to donald trump as the former and future. president-elect say that kind of nonsense in court. that apparently is what he is paying, for if he is actually paying them, his contributors are paying them i guess. but these lawyers have been completely legally wiped out every step of the, way and donald trump doesn't seem to be spiking that we've noticed that part. >> no it is actually quite stunning. and i think we are seeing the limits of tactics that he is used in the past. this used to fly when he was in a boardroom and throwing temper tantrums to get his way in a deal that he was threatening to reneged on. for example. but it is really amazing that these attorneys do not seem to understand that by treating judge and drawn as if he were the base, and by treating this trial as if it were a political exercise, they are going to get their client in a lot of trouble. and i understand why donald doesn't seem to have gotten the memo that the trial, the fraud part of this trial has already been adjudicated against him. but his lawyers don't seem to understand that either. and that is the part that is just incredible. >> at the end of his legal roads, he is gonna look up, his contributors will have paid a lot of attorneys fees to a lot of lawyers. so far, all of whom have performed as nothing but sycophants to donald trump. embarrassing themselves as lawyers to basing themselves, doing things that are below what anyone has ever imagined lawyers might do in any given situation. and i'm wondering, is donald trump ever going to see the end of the whole thing? how bad his own lawyers were? >> no, not at all. because, again, they like all of his other sycophants, are performing for an audience of. one that is all that matters to him. and he continues to believe that he is in control of his destiny. although, as we can clearly imagine at this point based on the reporting that his next hope fully theoretical administration is already trying to game the system so that he is dictator for life. he's banging up against the impossibility of continuing to get away with what he has been getting away with his whole life. finally we can say that the walls are closing in. and part of the reason they are is because he doesn't even realize it. >> there are two cases that will be unaffected by the outcome of the presidential election, no matter which way it goes. one is this case, it is a new york state case. and so whatever is going to happen to his business is going to happen, and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about that, federal government, presidential level. and the georgia case against him. which can also proceed, there is no possible way to interfere with that case from the presidency. what will donald trump try to do, he must know now that those are the two cases that he cannot in any way stop? no matter what happens? >> well he is going to try to win or steal the election next november. , the pressure he is under is extraordinary. and, you know, you and i lawrence have spoken about this over the last few years. it is worse now than it was in the fall of 2020. we are in a greater and more dangerous tipping point than we were after the election of 2020. and we have to recognize that the more defeats donald suffers in court, especially if they are the kinds of defeats that go to his very sense of identity, right? and they don't have the kinds of punishment that will take him off the board as a political player, the more dangerous he is going to get. so i am very concerned that the calendar isn't going to allow for matters to be settled before the general election. because that is only going to give him more room to start preparing to create a situation in which the verdict, in this, case the verdict in georgia, do not matter at all to his political future or his traditional future. >> mary trump, thank you very much for joining us once again. >> thank, you lawrence. >> thank you. >> coming up, rachel maddow, that's all i have to say. rachel is next! when you have chronic kidney disease... ...there are places you'd like to be. like here. and here. not so much here. farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure which can lead to dialysis. ♪far-xi-ga♪ farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. when you have chronic kidney disease, it's time to ask your doctor for farxiga. because there are places you want to be. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. ♪far-xi-ga♪ (sniffing) i know my old spice long-lasting scents anywhere. that's me, mr. cole. oh... 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only from xfinity. my favorite thing to do when home of the xfinity 10g network. rachael maddow as a guest on this program is to shut up and listen, which is exactly what i'm gonna do, beginning with her new audiobook. >> in the years leading up to the u.s. entry into world war ii, the american government, american institutions, american democracy itself, was under attack from enemies without and within. the great american fight against fascism that we have inherited as a cornerstone in our country's moral foundation in a fight that didn't happen only overseas in the 1940s. americans fought on both sides of that divide here at home, too. and their stories will curl your hair. they may also boil easter your confidence in our ability to win our modern iterations of those same recurring fights, not to mention future rounds, to, when this inevitably comes up again on civilizations big democracy sure we'll. >> the book is prequel, an american fight against fascism, and the author is rachel maddow. thank you very much for being here. >> you are very kind to have me, thank you so much. >> note i was thinking when i was listening to the audio book? i was thinking a couple of things. one, perfect for the long thanksgiving drive to grandma, perfect for the long flight to anywhere for thanksgiving. but i was also, thinking it is an alarming tale, but so soothing to listen to. how did that magical formula come about? >> trying to administer it like a drug, sort of? this will make it go down easy. >> yeah. >> you know, the audio book producer, editor and producer working with us -- a relaxing guy. >> he is the greatest guy. >> and with every audio book that i have done, this is the fourth when i am done now, you, i always start off reading, gibberish, but then when you get to the end of the 300 pages, you are into a rhythm, and it is fine, and scott always says the same thing. he says, that's great, we're totally done, that's awesome, do you want to do chapter one again now. and i go back, i do chapter one again with my new relaxed cadence that it took me the entire book to earn. because otherwise i would come out of the gate being like, you guys! you guys! it would be annoying. >> i have done too with scott. what i dream, of maybe we can work out this deal with the network, they get scott to come in here and just talk to us during commercial breaks. just, hey, rachel, that was really good. that's just incredibly soothing, okay, back to your book. >> i also have with me his entire list of german pronunciations that he gave me for all, i, mean there is a lot of german, there's a bunch of stuff about not sees, here so there's all these german words. i know how to spell them, because i've been working with printed materials all this time. i have no idea how to pronounce any of. as he made it so easy. so i could speak face german. >> that is detail. i was intrigued, because the podcast that covers a lot of the same ground is so mesmerizing and wonderful, and the book has more. and the audio book has more. because we get to hear original source material like meet the press from 1880 or something like that, something way back there. >> you know, the other thing that was -- when you are doing a podcast, it doesn't -- you pick a specific arc, one story that has a beginning, middle, and, us because the main thing, but bigger. one main thing i wanted to do, which argentine trying to do in the broadcast, was talk about how important and influential and, like, what a big deal the bad guys were who were involved in this stuff. like, in the podcast, for example, it didn't talk a lot about henry ford, charles, lindberg didn't talk very much about charles coughlin. but i really think it is worth understanding, particularly for residents of what it means today. but this was not a fringe movement. >> yes. >> these were not guys hanging out in the parking lot, these were the people who are running the country. the most influential people in the country were implicated in some of the worst stuff. and that to me helps in terms of thinking about this is kind of an instructional book from the past. because it means that the americans who fought these guys back in the 30s and 40s, they were up against, you know, the most famous industrialist in the country, the consensus national hero who was more famous than anybody in the country other than the president. the biggest media figure of the country that they have ever had. the biggest political organization that the country had at the time. it was the biggest and most connected and most influential forces in american politics and culture, and still the anti fascists one. and so we should learn what they do. >> yes, this is a chapter in america's history of fascist outbreaks. and fascist kind of collectives that have hopes and dreams that we are now seeing resurfaced again here. >> well we saw, there is no hitler but hitler, there is no not sees, but not seized. there was a time in the lead up to world war ii when we think of the not seas were over there and they were bad guys and we really good guys over here, and we went over there and beat him it was over. this is the story about americans who not only sided with the germans in world war ii, but in some cases worked for germany. and we're trying to impose an american form of nazism here. and they were surprisingly well connected and influential and for a long on their plans. because they didn't succeed, we have decided that it must have been a fringe thing. but it really wasn't, and in the middle of, it it's really, really wasn't. and so that to me is just, it's electric. because even though they will never be bad guys exactly like those bad guys, they will never be anything like germany from 19 33 to 19 4500 killer, still the idea of fighting fascism, fighting a big and powerful and connected anti-democratic movement, particularly one that has a big crush on authoritarian dictators in foreign lands, that is something that we have done. and fighting them in the courts, fighting them in journalism and activism. you know, institutions like the church and the military and unions and other american institutions standing up and fighting them, it is great stuff, and i do feel like it is instructional for us. >> yes, and if you don't have an incredibly detailed knowledge of american history, which very few people, do some people have knowledge of a certain period, but you get to think, oh, that couldn't happen here, that couldn't happen here. this is one of those books that tells, you know, it happened here. it happened here already, but by the way, here are the ways it can happen here again, and your last hour, he did a report without using the word fascism. about what the trump plan is for day one of another trump presidency. and that is faster. they want, according to devlin barrett and his colleagues at the washington post, this new reporting, they want to invoke the insurrection act on day one of trump's second term. what is the insurrection act for, that allows you to use the u.s. military on u.s. soil against u.s. civilians. and they want to do it on day one, why do you want to do that on day one? it's not because you have a small democratic project in mind for this country. >> and you will not be surprised that that kind of thinking can happen in america and have followers in america if you read prequel, rachel's new book, which shows you this has been in the american body politic ford to quite some time. >> i keep coming, up and it will come up again after we did this time. but one of the things we can do to be at this time is to look at the generation that did before us and they had some good ideas. >> the audio book is right here, on this phone, courtesy of audible, which again, does a great job. and the book is available. oh, by the, way i just feel like, you know, millions of people. if you look what is on your screen right now, here, it is all here. if christmas shopping is done. right, here right, don how many regimental fans do you have in your family? this does, it you don't to think. >> you are very kind. >> rachel, i am looking for a bump in the audio book sales overnight, i'm gonna claim that. -- >> i want to see what the so can do. >> by the book, it would make lawrence very happy. >> that's the commercial, rachel -- >> -- come back anytime. >> coming, up in one of several important court filings today, special prosecutor said donald trump, quote, stands alone in american history for his alleged crimes. glenn kirschner and barbara mcquade will join us next. okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪) if you struggle. and struggle. and struggle with cpap. you should check out inspire. no mask. no hose. just sleep. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com he hits his mark —center stage—and is crushed by a baby grand piano. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ struggling with the highs and lows of bipolar 1? ask about vraylar. because you are greater than your bipolar 1, and you can help take control of your symptoms - with vraylar. some medicines only treat the lows or highs. vraylar treats depressive, acute manic, and mixed episodes of bipolar 1 in adults. proven, full-spectrum relief for all bipolar 1 symptoms. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. call your doctor about unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles or confusion which may mean a life-threatening reaction, or uncontrollable muscle movements which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, weight gain and high cholesterol may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. sleepiness and stomach issues are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. inez, let me ask you, you're using head and shoulders, right? 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>> yes, nothing here surprising, lawrence. i think that even before this indictment was filed, i am sure jack smith sat down with appellate specialist, anticipating the defenses, and prepared to fight back. you know, one is the first amendment protects donald trump 's conduct, of course it doesn't. we know we have free speech rights but not to commit fraud or conspiracy or other kinds of things. there is a due process argument, that is the one you are resetting from, about fair notice, that other people have challenged elections before, but none, jack smith argues, through deceit and fraud. nobody has ever done what this president has done. and finally, double jeopardy. that somehow when there was the impeachment and the failure of a conviction there, that that somehow barr as his subsequent prosecution under the criminal law. but that is just apples and oranges, and that is the argument that jack smith makes here. i think all of these arguments should knock down those defenses. >> and glenn, there was also the response to the motion to dismiss, because it is a so-called selective or vindictive prosecution? >> yes, that is similarly, i think, for phyllis. i don't think there are any facts that support that it was either selective prosecution, which needs to be discriminatory in both its intent and its effect, or vindictive prosecution, which is basically punishing somebody for exercising a legal right or bringing the prosecution based on personal animus. i think all of this sort of tidal wave of motions, largely frivolous motions that challenge brought by the defense really has three purposes, and those three purposes are delay, delay, and delay. none of it seems meritorious. it all seems designed to try to push the trial date off it's, you know, current schedule of march 4th. >> yes, and that is one of the concerns that jacks mitt raised and i'm really, really happy with the results. it's still me, but with fewer lines. botox® cosmetic is fda approved to temporarily make frown lines, crow's feet, and forehead lines look better. the effects of botox® cosmetic may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness may be a sign of a life-threatening condition. do not receive botox® cosmetic if you have a skin infection. side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyebrow, eyelid drooping, and eyelid swelling. tell your doctor about your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, and medications, including botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. see for yourself at botoxcosmetic.com. and we're done. hm, what about these? 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