coming up this weekend, don trump's on the campaign trail as the 2024 republican front runner, but i wonder, he will be on trial. expected to take a stand in the civil fraud case in new york. first it seemed like the least of trump's legal worries, but this case has proven to be quite explosive. we have another hour of velshi right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> and good morning, it is sided eight of him to the fourth. i'm ali velshi. we begin this morning with a split screen image that perfectly represents this moment of american politics with democracy hanging in the balance. donald trump on the campaign trail and on trial. on one side we have a disgraced twice impeached multiple indicted former president raging at the system at the walls close in on him. on the other, a seemingly untouchable front runner for the republican nomination giving his supporters and the rest of the country a pretty good preview of what his return of power is going to look like. and the eyes of the maga base, trump is barreling towards the white house in 2024 despite witch hunts as they call them on all sides. as he continues to lead his republican commentators -- republican competitors by a long shot. he is also continuing to undermine and disregard key elements of what it means to be in a democracy and how democratic processes work. he is refusing to attend the third republican debate. instead, he will hold a counter programming rally nearby next week where he is likely to continue a disturbing line of self aggrandizing rhetoric casting himself as a political martyr. even as two states are currently weighing the question of whether donald trump is even qualified to appear on the 2024 ballot because of the insurrection cause, the 14th amendment of the constitution. last night donald trump once again took the stage at a rally. two songs that were sung by criminals who attacked the capitol, and he said this about the january six rioters who had been convicted and are serving jail time. he said quote, i called them j six hostages. not prisoners in quote. meanwhile of course trump is facing civil charges as well as 91 felony counts and multiple jurisdictions. the civil fraud case in new york seemed to many of us like the least of his legal woes, but it has shown an explosive week of trial to be potentially the most consequential. judge arthur engoron already ruled that trump and his company committed years of fraud, inflating wealth and assets by millions of dollars. the trial is just to determine what the penalty will be, and we have seen during the trial a man who crafted a personal, professional, and political identity based on his real estate empire and his financial wi unraveling in realtime. the case extended existing gag order to include trump's lawyers. it issued a order on friday afternoon that reads, in part, my chambs have been inundated with hundreds of harassing and threatening phone calls, voicemails, emails, letters, and packages, end quote, since the start of the trial. now that order extends the initial gag order that the judge imposed a month ago after trump shared a social media post attacking the judge's main law clerk. but trump has already violated that gag order twice according to fines totaling $15, 000, calling the judge to threaten trump with jail time if he continues to violate the order. at the same time this week, the former president's two other sons testified in the case and sometimes heated exchanges attempting to shift the blame of the fraud to the organization's primary accountant. and while trump was in the courtroom this week, he is clearly watching this case in very closely. he posted on social media site, quote, so sad to see my sons persecuted in a political witch hunt, and quote. for more on this, i'm joined by suzanne -- she's investigative reporter for the new york times and msnbc contributor. in 2019, she won the pulitzer prize for explanatory reporting for her and her team's investigation -- found he inherited hundreds of millions of dollars from his father when the fraudulent tax schemes. suzanne, good to see you my friend. thank you for being with us today. u.n.i. of course were on tv the day when the important part of this case was determined. the day when the cloak fell away from donald trump. the myth of donald trump's self creation. but i want to go back in time 2016, when you reported for the first time on donald trump's taxes. including the discovery the trump discolored $960 million as a loss on his 1995 income tax return. you as the great reported that i've known you to be continued to dig into his finances with more breaking news coming every year since then. there are so much that we have uncovered. tell me where you are in this case right now. one of all the stuff that you've studied has come to pass and what if anything have you learned during this trial. >> the reporting is really interesting, because what we discovered that it was five or six years it seems like -- we really learned about this idea that he is a self made millionaire a billionaire or whatever it is is. it is a sham. he inherited hundreds of millions of dollars from his father and then he got a second rush as well from the apprentice. hundreds of more millions from the genius of marc burnett. donald trump was the actor in that show. it's not to say he did not have ability on that front, but you see these two huge fortunes that he got and how he lost them with everything else pretty much that he touched. and in 2020, we got his taxes and they showed that most of his businesses lose money. and so all of that money that he has come into, he has lost. and what i think is interesting is that i think now the idea that donald trump overflights his wealth is soaked into his bloodstream of this country. i think people understand that he has propensity for hyperbole. i think that is putting it nicely. but he has lied about his wealth since he was in his twenties. but now we are seeing this in a setting that has real consequences. we're seeing it in a courtroom, and he has already been found liable on the count of fraud, but he submitted fraudulent records to financial institutions in new york to get loans and get favorable treatment on loans. and at the end of this, he is facing penalties of potentially 200 and $50 million, could go higher could go lower. but that is what he is looking at. there is already a receiver over his company. the day that unite were on air, he was found liable to fraud, and the judge immediately said, get the fraudsters out of the driving seat. they are no longer going to be running this company. and the reason they do that is to protect the value of the assets because some of these assets may in the, and have to be sold to pay that fine. >> to pay whatever the finest. >> right, i really think what's going on, and the reason that they are so hot under the color on this is that it's real. it is real for donald trump in a courtroom, and it's real for them because this is their inheritance and their children's inheritance on the line here. $250 million is a lot of money for donald trump. nald trump >> let me ask you this. there's a couple reasons when i have known each other for a long time. we both are business report is from a long time ago in canada. one of the things that we both went years ago is that a brand's value is in its goodwill. michael cohen was on with me last hour, and he made the point that donald trump's brand value, alina -- 's lawyer was claiming that it's many times what some people think. but cohn was making the point that when you take trump's name off of the properties, the other things to which he attached the trump name, ice, underwear, steaks, touch, up all those kinds of stuff, none of it worked. the university of failed. everything that how trump name that wasn't a property filled and hence the brand value is not like coca-cola. it is actually just not with that much enhanced trump is worse less than he claims to be. >> right, in a lot of the things that his name on it did fail. but i think there was a time when the trump name and a building would command a premium especially among foreign buyers. i think we definitely went through a period of that. it's really interesting that when i heard alina -- say that, because she is really harking back to a time when potentially that brand was worth more i would argue now that the trump brand has been incredibly damaged by what we have been through in the last six years. i mean since he came into the white house. i would love to see an actual brand analysis and what it is worth today. and the other thing i thought about this listening to michael cohen addressing that earlier and he made some great points, and it reminded me of the deposition that donald trump gave in the mid 2000s in a case involving tim o'brien, a reporter who donald trump sued. and in that deposition, donald trump talked about his brand. it can go up in a day just depending on what mood donald trump-ism. that just goes to sort of the idea that the brand -- he is just saying it is worth whatever i feel when i wake up in the morning, and that is what has got him in court today. >> let me ask you about -- sorry, i didn't mean to interrupt you. i want to ask you about another matter, and that is eric trump and donald trump's both saying that we did not know the financial condition of the company and whatever it was not accurate with the content. both of you and i know from 2000, 2001, 2002, the financial scandals. that is not a thing anymore. you cannot make that argument. you cannot blame the accountants. >> we lived through that, and remember that after enron, it made the ceos and the cfo sign off on it. for that reason, -- and i also thought that if they are not involved in that sort of thing when they doing running the company. it was remarkable to hear that they just delegated that responsibility. the other thing that i thought was if they don't know by walking into their father's apartment that they lived in how many square feet it is, i'm not sure they should be running a real estate company in new york. or if they don't know the actual market value of seven springs, that is the westchester state that donald trump bought in the mid 90s and fail to develop into a golf club and is still hanging on to, or other golf courses. they don't know the fair market value of these things. i'm not sure that they have any business running a company in new york. >> it is a wild story, and you are piece of this history, suzanne, they are excellent reporting. i cannot say do enough, congratulations to you and your team for the remarkable, i don't know, 20,000 word story that you all did that is really the basis of this case. so thank you so much. suzanne -- is an investigative reporter pulitzer prize winner and an msnbc contributor. still to come, israel gave a small window of time for palestinians to safely flee northern gaza for egypt. that window has come in past. we will go to cairo for the latest on the status of the rafah crossing between gaza and egypt. plus, it is a crude calculus, but under the laws of armed conflict, militaries are expected to act in good faith when it comes to times of combat. we militaries do not act in good faith, it's time to prosecute under international humanitarian law. how does that? work we will break it down on the other side. right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. theo's nose was cause for alarm, so dad brought puffs plus lotion to save it from harm. puffs has 50% more lotion and brings soothing relief. don't get burned by winter nose. a nose in need deserves puffs indeed. america's #1 lotion tissue. this is spring semester at fairfield-suisun unified. they switched to google tools for education because there's never been a reported ransomware attack on a 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foreign ministers of both egypt and jordan. secretary has emphasized the need for humanitarian pause in gaza, not a cease-fire. he stopped the rampant blood ship that has been taking place since early last month. just yesterday, blinken was in tel aviv pushing for that pause, which would potentially allow israeli hostages to be released and permit humanitarian aid to get in. the situation in the region continues to grow more dire by the hour. about 1.4 million people, more than half of the entire population has been displaced in gaza. and according to the palestinian health ministry more than 9400 people have been killed including nearly 4000 children. the israeli prime minister's office reports that nearly 1400 people have been killed in israel, and it also says that the number of hostages held captive by hamas currently stands at 241. meanwhile, some foreign nationals have been able to make their way out of gaza into egypt through the rafah border crossing like the americans that you see in this video getting into a hotel in cairo. just hours ago, the palestinian crossings authority confirmed that no more foreign nationals would be able to cross the rafah gate scintilla of those who are injured in wounded could get out of gaza for treatment. joining me now from cairo's megan fitzgerald. megan, thank you for being with us. what is behind a little closure of the border crossing and what are we likely to see happen in terms of getting people who are wounded out and getting for nationals who are in egypt. >> so ali, what we know is that for the fourth in a row the border crossing open today at seven a.m.. but officials on the palestinian side saying that they posted at noon that it's not going to reopen until the injured are able to get through. and of course that begs the question of why aren't the injured palestinians allowed to go through, and who is stopping them from going through? these are the questions that we have put forward to the officials on the ground there and so at this hour, it is still unclear. but what we know according to several u.s. government officials is that some 200 americans were able to make it through the processing in the last four days. we know that that is roughly half. and so 3 john 70 were on that list, and we had an opportunity to speak with these folks about that process. they say it was a very long process taking about 12 hours from when they arrive at rafah to waiting for their names to be called and then there is the process of getting their prospects porch checked, paperwork that needs to be done, and then they're able to cross into egypt as we just did on tuesday, that long seven-hour trip from rafah all the way down to cairo before they go on to their final destination. but ali, we've been speaking with these people who have left gaza, and it is a hard winter decision for many folks. they are leaving in many cases family behind who are not on the list we aren't able to escape the horror and the suffering that continues to unfold on the enclave. and so they have to figure that leaving them behind, knowing that i may not ever see them again, or do i leave? we spoke to one just the other day, she has five children. they want to go visit their ailing grandmother and other family members. she made the decision to leave. we spoke with her about just how difficult that is. but she also talked about the dire situation, how they are literally hunting for food. they go out, they try to gather food and water if they can, with the understanding that they may not make it back, ali. and if they do make it back their homes could be gone. it is a devastating situation, and they're hopeful for a cease-fire or but blinken is calling for, humanitarian pauses. ali? >> at the, moment we have news of neither, but we will come back to u.s. soon as we get it. something may develop in this meeting in amman where the egyptian foreign minister and the jordanians and secretary blinken are. thank you very much as always, megan fitzgerald for us in cairo, egypt. up next, a continuation of our discussion on war crimes, identifying potential war crimes is one thing. prosecuting a war crime is much more complicated. plicated what? i'm 12 hours short. - have a fun weekend. - ♪ unnecessary action hero! unnecessary. ♪ - was that necessary? - no. neither is a blown weekend. with paycom, employees do their own payroll so you can fix problems before they become problems. - hmm! get paycom and make the unnecessary, unnecessary. - see you down the line. right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. it ain't my dad's razor, dad. ay watch it! it's from gillettelabs. this green bar releases trapped hairs from my face... gamechanga! ...while the flexdisc contours to it. so the five blades can get virtually every hair in one stroke. for the ultimate gillette shaving experience. the best a man can get is gillettelabs. >> i want to continue the discussion about the basic framework that guides our shared global understanding of international humanitarian law and how that set of laws informs the modern definition of war crimes. the basic principles of international humanitarian law aimed to protect civilians and non combatants from the dangers of war, while at the same time acknowledging the fact that countries have the right to defend themselves from enemy forces and attacks. there is a global understanding that situations might arise that justify a country taking action against its enemies, like when united states was attacked on 9/11. but militaries and governments are expected to take into account what actions are acceptable within the rules of war, including ensuring that the military response is proportional to the initial attack and that damage in danger to non combatants is minimal. among multitude of other things. this is a crude calculus, but under the laws of armed conflict, militaries are expected to act in good faith and act honorably even in times of combat. but in addition to the geneva conventions and its additional protocols that we previously discussed, there is one other international treaty that has been worth mentioning. the roman statute of the international criminal court. now the roman statute established the international criminal court, where the icc, as in authority based in the hague, in the netherlands that can prosecute for main international crimes. genocide, crimes against humanity, the crime of aggression, and war crimes. specifically, article eight of the realm statute builds upon the geneva conventions to define what acts can be prosecuted as war crimes, and that list of war crimes includes willful killing, torture or inhumane treatment, extensive destruction and appropriation of property, unlawful deportations, and the taking of hostages. there are other acts of war that are considered violations of international humanitarian law, but they don't fall under the jurisdiction of the icc, and one of those we discussed earlier's collective punishment. this one is critical to understanding the context of the current war. collective punishment is when a person where group is punished for an act that someone else committed. harming civilian non-combatants like many of the 1400 israelis on october 7th and many of the thousands of palestinian sense because of the actions of the government of either is categorically illegal. but this is only applied to member states who signed on, and to this day, a number of countries have refused to sign on to the room statute. well in the case of the united states, israel, and russia, they withdrew their signatures as well as their support for the agreement, in they continue to reject the notion that the international criminal court has any authority over them and what they do. now earlier this year, the icc issued an arrest warrant for russian president vladimir putin, accusing him of the unlawful deportation in transfer of children from ukraine into russia. that is a war crime under the room statute. and surprisingly, russia dismissed the charges outright, calling them quote, outrageous and unacceptable, end quote. and i bring this up to emphasize just how complex the effort to prosecute war crimes can be. and the context of the current war in the middle east, the icc has actually recognized palestine as a member state and recognize the palestinian authority, not hamas, as the governing body. as a member, the palestinian authority has even tried to bring human rights abuse cases against israel in front of the icc, but israel has continued to dismiss the legitimacy of those complaints since israel does not accept the international criminal court's jurisdiction. joining me now is tom denim bomb, and he's a professor of international law at tufts university. the co-director of the center for international law and governance, and the author of the book the crime of aggression, humanity, and the soldier. tom, thank you so much for being with. us i appreciate. it as i just laid, out israel does not recognize the icc known as hamas and israel does not believe that the icc has any authority over it. it did sign the main for geneva conventions of 1949. are these enforceable things, or are they just a set of honor codes? >> no, these are enforceable law, they are binding law, and even within the geneva conventions themselves, there are provisions on war crimes, when the language of the geneva conventions, grave breaches of the geneva conventions, and that can underpin the tradition of courts outside of the states involved in a particular conflict. so foreign domestic courts can hear war crimes cases under those convictions, and they provide part of the basis for what underpins the war crimes listed in the icc statute. and the icc as you mentioned has jurisdiction on the basis of our their territory or nationality and has self determined that it has jurisdiction on the territory of gaza and the west bank on the basis of palestine's recipe occasion of the statute. recip >> what's interesting, and we were talking about this last hour, that even if you are a signatory or you are a government like russia, for instance, it is complicated, because somebody has to get arrested in order to be prosecuted. obviously with israel, there is a government and there are people who are making decisions. it gets very tricky on the hamas side. if you think that what happened on october 7th were war crimes, and many people do, how do prosecutors determine whom to hold responsible for acts that are committed by a large group of people as was the case on october 7th? >> so there are a number of legal doctrines that apply. obviously the people who are most directly involved as the physical perpetrators are liable as principal perpetrators, but there are also actors who may be in a command or superior position where they exercise effective control over those persons who engaged in that physical perpetration who could be held reliable as commanders under command responsibility, notwithstanding the fact that it's a non state-owned group. and there are others who would be complicit liable for having aided, abetted, or otherwise assisted and having ordered, -induced, or solicited the crimes. and so there are a number of different doctrines that can connect other people to the physical perpetrators and could underpin the criminal liabilities as well. >> is it a potential that israel could file a claim given that they are not signatories to the room statute? >> well states in this case would not file a claim, but israel could support and cooperate with the court and its investigation of the war crimes and likely crimes against humanity that occurred on october 7th and subsequent, and indeed, nowadays parties have cooperate with the court in the past. indeed, the united states is cooperating with the court and its investigation of war crimes on the territory of ukraine. so that wouldn't not at all be without president. but israel's posture vis-à-vis the international criminal court makes it unlikely or at least means that it would be an anomalous cooperative posture from the israeli government, particularly since there are potentially war crimes investigations relating to israeli officials and response to those events on october 7th and the conduct of hostilities and gaza in particular. >> and so let's talk about this. a few days ago, it's really admitted that a leaked, internal proposed forcing gazans into egypt permanently was in fact a real report that the government has drafted. could a report like that showing and tenth be used as evidence, what is something actually have to happen in order for it to be a war crime? >> it certainly would be part of evidence of any given investigation and possible prosecution. a prosecutor would be looking to build a wall of evidence, and each component is a break in that wall. articulations of intent and public statements or documents are absolutely part of that analysis, but they would have to be combined with the relevant evidence necessary to get beyond a reasonable doubt on any specific crime. and so that would be one component, but you would combine it with others. you wrote in article shortly after the conflict began about siege starvation. you wrote this in security. when he talking about when you talk about speech starvation and what does humanitarian international law say about this? >> so one of the crimes within the icc statute is the starvation of civilians as a method of warfare. when we are looking at that particular act, the first question is, where the acts in question entirely the deprivation of objects indispensable to civilian survival such as food, water, and other essentials. and the second is, was that part of a method of warfare and which the starvation of civilians was the defining component, and in this context, it is really critical to remember that the population of gaza as a whole is a civilian population and retains that civilian character notwithstanding the presence of hamas and other combatants within that population. and so when a operation is deployed against the population as a whole and it is a starvation operation, then the war crime of starvation and civilians is a method of warfare and potentially implicated, and that is one of the crimes within icc jurisdiction. >> tom, you wrote your book in 2018, and sadly it has been more relevant with each passing year since then. it's going to be an important read, thank you for being with us this morning. tom dannenbaum is a professor of international law at tufts university. he is the co-director for the center of international law and governance. he is the author of the book, the crime of aggression, humanity, and the soldier. with a group of prominent jewish writers, otters, and activists have come together to dispel what they are calling it the dangerous conflation of the notion that criticism of the israeli government, particularly in support of palestinian freedom, is inherently antisemitic. the legendary pulitzer prize winning playwright toni kushner joins me after this. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ still living with odors? get back in there and freshen instantly with febreze air mist. febreze's fine mist floats longer in the air to fight even your toughest odors. so long stinky smells and hello amazing freshness. febreze air mist. woman: who's that, who is that? cole: this is my puppy! woman: cancer. it's different in a child. because your child is still growing. charlie: i had 14 rounds of chemo. there's thousands and thousands of kids all over the world who need help. girl: it is my first time having cancer. and it's the very worst. spokesman: saint jude 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(vo) you were diagnosed with thyroid eye disease a long time ago. and year after year, you weathered the storm and just lived with the damage that was left behind. but even after all this time your thyroid eye disease could still change. restoration is still possible. learn how you could give your eyes a fresh start at tedhelp.com. >> for more than 40 years, leaders in iran have been vocal about their disdain for the state of israel, and now that israel isn't it all out war with iran's ally, hamas, the country is now reportedly weighing whether to get iran's foreign minister told the new york times that the country's quote, not pursuing the spreading of this war, and quote, but if it does end up responding to israel's bombardment of gaza, iran and the proxy militias across the region that arms and trains could severely escalate this conflict. joining me now from iran is nbc news foreign correspondent and bureau chief my friend ali arouzi. ali, good evening to you, and this fight between israel and hamas continues, what sway does iran have over hamas in the south of israel and hezbollah in lebanon. and as such, how do you see this playing out? >> well it's good to be with you, my friend. iran has immense influence over hezbollah and hamas. they are what they are because of this going public. they have been finance, trained, and equipped by the islamic republic, and so let start with hezbollah. it is an iranian creation and the jewel of the crown of iran's proxy networks. if it adopted a model set up by iota -- ayatollah who maybe, and the modern era. hezbollah pledges the entire allegiance to iran, saying that they take their orders on directions and organization was created to support some 1500 irgc instructors. by the 19 90s, with the support of iran, hezbollah invented the political arena and leveled on, and by the early 2000s, they have established such a huge military that it was bigger than the lebanese army, and described as a state within a state. today, they are considered the most powerful non state actor in the world, and that is all thanks to iran. hamas, unlike hezbollah, is not in line with iran. they are a sunni organization, whereas hezbollah are shia. they're also at odds in iran's most are teaching location, syria. hamas supported bashar al-assad. iran did everything it could to prop up assad, but they chose to ignore those differences and focus on their shared goal, the destruction of israel and the expulsion of u.s. troops. hamas never shied away from showing its gratitude towards iran. their political chief ismael hanna praised them for carrying out the intense bombardment on israel and said that they never had up with money weapons and technical support. so that sums up how close these two organizations are to iran and how much they rely on iran. but an important way to make, ali, is that whatever the outcome of this war, drawn sees this as a victory already. and their proximity has dealt a severe blow to them on october 7th. antisemitism is on the rise. western cities are seeing tens of thousands of protests pouring out onto the streets in support of palestine. onto the streesomething that khs supreme leader, has pointed out on several occasions with him and satisfaction. iran has reestablished themselves as a muslim authority and a vanguard of palestine. -- between israel and saudi arabia is pretty much on the backburner. this has been a huge success for ron, and they have not had to pay a price for it. completely unscathed from this attack on october 7th. >> your perspective on this important, because one has to understand the role that iran is playing in the broader world to understand this particular fight. ali, stay safe, good to see you always my friend. ali arouzi in toronto, iran. the changes of acquitting any critique of the israeli government with antisemitism. one group of prominent jewish writers is pushing back on that narrative. i'll speak to the legendary play right tony kushner 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conflation. the notion that criticism of the israeli government, particularly in support of palestinian freedom, is inherentlyantimitic. and an open letter, they wre in part, quote, we are jewish writers, artists, and activists who wish to disavow the widespread narrative that any crm of isel is inherently antisemitic. isra and its defenders have longe th rhetorical tactic to shield rael from accountability, dignified the u.s. is illion dollar investment in israel's military, obscure the deadly reality of pati, and deny palestinian sovereignty. now, this insidious gagging of free speech is being used to justify israel's ongoing military bombardment of gaza and to silence criticism from the international community, end quote. the letter goes on to say, quote, we find this rhetorical tactic antithetical to jewish values, which teach us to repair the world, question authority, and ch the oppressed over the oppressor. it is precisely because of the painful history of antisemitism and lessons of jewish texts that we advocate f dignity and sovereignty of the palestinian people. we refuse the false choice between jewish safety and palestinian freedom, between jewish identity and the ending of oppression of palesnis. in fact, we believe the rights of jews and palestinians go hand in hand. the safety of each people depends on the others, and quote. dozens of jewish writers, artists, and activists signed this letter. many of whom you probably recognize, including tony kushner, the pulitzer prize winning playwright, screenwriter, an activist. he's best known for his two part epic, angels in america in many, many more that he has done. i would be here all day if i listed everything he has done. he's known for his long-standing support of palestinian freedom and for community. tony kushner is standing by, he joins me after a quick break. er a quick break pneumococcal pneumonia? i help others. but i need to help protect myself. honestly? i couldn't afford to get sick. i want to be there for this one. i can't if i'm sick. pneumococcal pneumonia is a potentially serious bacterial lung disease. you may be at risk if you're 19 to 64 with certain chronic conditions. or if you're 65 or older. don't pause a moment longer. ask your doctor or pharmacist about getting vaccinated against pneumococcal pneumonia today. the power goes out and we still have wifi ask your doctor or pharmacist about getting vaccinated to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. >> before the break, i told you home of the xfinity 10g network. about a letter signed by dozens of jewish writers, artists, and activists wishing to disavow the notion that any criticism of israel is inherently antisemitic. while also rejecting antisemitism in all its forms. the letter, which is worth a read, says in part, antisemitism is an excruciating painful part of our committees past and present. our families have escaped wars, harassment, pogroms, and conctration camps. we have studied the long histies of persecution and violence against jews and we take seriously the ongoing antisemitism that jeopardizes the safety of jews around the world. and quote. one of the people sign a letter is tony kushner, tony award winner in pulitzer prize-winning play out -- playwright, screenwriter, an activist. you may know him best from his seminal work, angels in america. he most recently covert the script for the oscar nominated film the fable mans with stephen spielberg. kushner has long been vocal about's criticism of the israeli government treatment of palestinians and has faced backlash for these opinions. tony, they keep her being on the show this morning. >> thank you for having me. >> you have said in the past that you've never supported a boycott of israel. you have always unequivocally support of the jewish states right to exist, but your views on israel streams of palestinians were twisted around in 2011. the sunni university of new york almost withheld an honorary degree because a trustee accused of being anti israel. this argument is used against you back then is still being weaponized against criticisms of israel. it's kind of interesting, because we have this criticisms of the american government, the turkish government, the saudi government, the chinese government, the hungarian government. we have that for a lot of lists. the indian government. but this one is different. >> it is a complicated issue because anything involving jewish people also brings with it the entire history of depression and persecution and attempted genocide of the jewish people. so there is a way in which we occupy particular place in history and there is a need to understand the history of the endangerment of the jewish people or the fact that most of us are living with a awareness that we are in some ways a imperiled minority. there is now a jewish state. that history goes along with an understanding of the policies of the state of israel. it is of course not an excuse for all sorts of behavior. and the ongoing oppression of the palestinian people by the israeli government is a factor that endangers not only palestinians, who should be as of as much concern to choose around the world into all israeli citizens as anyone else says, but it endangers the existence of the state of israel. these policies have not made israel a safer place. and now we are in a situation where, for the fifth time in 15 years, in which the idf is attacking gaza. if you have ever been to gaza, you mediately know that firing rockets into incredibly densely crowded area in which people are not at liberty to leave is a nightmarish idea. and in the last two weeks, the death toll is now approaching 10,000 people. most of them civilians. and deprivations and hardships being visited on the rest of the 2.5 million people who live in gaza that are unimaginable. i am horrified, as i think any decent human being is, at what happened on october 7th in israel. hamas is monstrous attacks on israeli civilians. but my grief over the death of the 1300 israeli civilians in my awareness of the terrible way that many of them were killed does not in any way mean that i feel less grief or less alarm than i am feeling every day reading about the mounting list of fatalities and gaza. right now, there's only really one thing that i think that any person of conscience, anywhere in the world needs to be thinking about. there must be a cease-fire. there has to be at least a pause if not a cease-fire, but they really needs to be a cease-fire. the invasion of gaza and the aerial tax on gaza are unconscionable. they have to stop. it doesn't endanger israel to do that. no one believes that these invasions, that the invasion or the air bombardments are going to get rid of hamas, and as this progresses, as this mask slaughter progresses, the rest of the region is beginning to rise up and i am very much afraid for the safety of israel if this continues. i think it has to stop. the complicating factors that israel is still being led by a man who i think no person of conscious, or anybody who has read the news for the last 15 years should regard as trustworthy or interested in anybody but his own self interest. >> this is an important letter. it's not long, everybody should read it. but it is tough for those of you who signed it, because it is not just that you have put your view out there, and in your case tony, it is not surprising, because you are consistent and how you thought about, it but it was subjected to criticism. it is not surprising that people conflate criticism of israel with antisemitism. the anti-defamation league classifies anti-zionism as antisemitism. but yesterday the editor of the jerusalem post titled an opinion piece which was titled, the longer part of us in which he said anti-science jews quote may still technically be jewish due to their parentage or conversion, while they may lead superficially jewish lives, and quote. they should not essentially be considered part of the jewish community. i was shocked, and i know these views on things, but he's basically saying that people like you are not really choose. >> i personally have never called myself an anti-zionist you. i'm not entirely sure what that expression means. agree with the statement in the letter that i signed that anti-zionism is not antisemitism. i call myself a diaspora and you. i'm not an israeli citizen. zionism is a movement, the 19th century movement that gave birth of the state of israel, and into zionism is a complicated term. i don't describe myself that way. the idea that this guy in the jerusalem post has announced that they're no longer part of the jewish community does not surprise me it doesn't move me. he is welcome to his opinion. if you want to read is really coverage of what is going on, read haaretz. do not read the jerusalem post. and it is a very interesting thing. people should be reading haaretz now, because there is a diversity of opinion, and a great deal of really surprising in terms of an israeli newspaper, it really surprising depth of criticism of the policies of the netanyahu government and specifically of the equation of criticism of the policies of the israeli government and antisemitism. it is cynical nonsense, and it has only one purpose, which is to distract peoples attention from where it should be focused right now. because if we stop the bombing, if we stop the invasion, people will stop dying in the hundreds and in the thousands. what can matter more than that. nothing to any due on earth should be -- that matter more on earth. there's a political imperative to save life with judaism, and it does not say save jewish life, it says save life. and so there's an interesting quote and an article in haaretz recently where scholar says, personally, i believe that there is no difference between a baby in gaza and a baby in israel, but do not quote me on that. i mean, you know, we need to be quoted on that! this is a unfolding catastrophe and we need to bring pressure on the biden administration to demand of netanyahu but the bombardment stops. the whole world i think at this point is lining up behind and demand for a cease-fire. >>