Transcripts For MSNBCW Alex 20240702

mourn the loss of already birkin, let's do our best to follow in his footsteps. be strong, be brave, and be a hero. and on that note, i wish you a very good and a healthy night. we are sending love to his family. from all around the colleagues across nbc news, thank you for staying up late with me. i'll see you at the end of tomorrow. tomorrow right now the biden administration is dealing with two major military conflicts in two separate parts of the world. and the desire to actually secure funding for the conflicts involving israel and ukraine was supposed to be, it was supposed to be the reason that moderate republicans voted in a far-right speaker of the house. with the interparty war over house leadership resolved, the idea is that those emergencies would finally be dealt with, at least that was the idea. today, it became painfully obvious that the republicans new speaker, congressman mike johnson, it's not really going to deal with any of it. this evening, speaker johnson put every republican on the record, voting for a bill that did not include any aid to ukraine's, and which would provide aid to israel, only on the condition that congress defunded the irs, to allow billionaires to cheat on their taxes. >> we have obligations, and we have come. it's and we want to protect and help and assist our friend israel. what we have to keep our own house in order as well. >> so you are saying you will not pass in israel aid bill, unless it is off, that is that the correct interpretation of your? >> that's voter going to do. i did not attach that for political purposes, okay i attach because again, we're trying to get back to the principle of prince's -- >> okay, before we go any further, here asked me pointed out that a bill that cuts spending to the irs, does not do anything to get back to the principle of fiscal responsibility. in fact, the head of the irs estimates that cutting that funding would actually cost the u.s. 90 billion dollars in tax revenue. which is plainly obvious. if you defund the tax police for rich people, rich people and paying less taxes. it also could be noted that speaker johnson and house republicans are once again very concerned about the debt, with a democrat in the white house. they were far less concerned when donald trump added almost eight trillion dollars to the debt's, in a single term. in part due to massive tax cuts that republicans passed to benefit the wealthy's. i see a pattern here. and tonight, republicans voted overwhelmingly to pass that bill, trying aid for israel to what is effectively aid for billionaires. so, the domestic politics here are transparent's. but the global consequences could be damning. thomas friedman are today in the new york times, thank goodness that johnson was not speaker jerod or. to he and his myopic members might not have pressed to fund the war against the germans in europe, but not against the japanese in the pacific, where they would have agreed to lend lease assistance for the allies, only if franklin roosevelt would eliminate the irs altogether. if it feels as if house gop leaders are small thinkers in a big time, it is because they are. they are shameless, shameful and dangerous. they are also, apparently, wasting a whole lot of everybody's time. senator chuck schumer has already declared speaker johnson's bill dead on revil in the senate. and senate republican leader mitch mcconnell has already embraced the idea of keeping israel aid tied to ukraine aid, which puts him directly at odds with the republican speaker of the house. do not be mistaken to think that senate republicans have it together though. last night, republicans took the senate floor, and took -- fighting with a fellow republican. after senator tommy tuberville refused to give up his months -long blockade on military appointments, as a protest, a one man protest, over the defense department's abortion policy. >> -- >> i really respect men over their word, i do not respect men who do not honor their word. if this is the norm, who the hell wants to serve in the military, when your promotion can be canned, based on that you had nothing to do with? >> and it is simply a, in my opinion, and abuse of the powers we have as senators. >> we are going to look back at this episode, and just be stunned, and what a national security suicide mission this became >> today, the senate was finally able to break through the tuberville blockade for a few hours, and individually confirmed three military leaders. but senator tuberville has bought almost 400 nominations, and he does not seem to be going anywhere. so this whole thing is not over yet, nor is the battle over aid for israel and ukraine. meanwhile, house republicans would rather be working on something else entirely. last night, at least 50 house republicans all appeared together for an interview. i guess you would call it an interview with, sean hannity. if that alone wasn't weird enough, this is what happened. >> is this leading to impeachment? >> we are going to follow the truth where it leads, because we have a constitutional -- we are on and we're going to continue. >> let me scan the room, how many of you think that is where that is, had please raise your hand? >> wow the whole room >> i thank you all >> joining me now is congressman adam schiff, democrat of california. he is also of course a candidate for the california senate seat from california. congressman, thank you for being here. i just would like to first get your reaction to the process, i guess we could call that speaker johnson has lead in the house. thomas friedman asserts that johnson is either too inexperienced, or two ideological, or both, to see the geopolitical reality of what this is. what do you think he is? >> well, i think tom friedman is probably right, on both regards. that a lack of experience and you know frankly, a lack of substance, a lack of seeing the big picture, a willingness to be small, and not consider what's at stake, not consider how the rest of the world is going to interpret this partisan bill, on israel that was saddled with this poison pill of letting off the hook wealthy tax cheats. apparently, wealthy tax cheats are a core constituency for the republicans, and that takes precedence over support for an ally like israel, at a time of war. i too think, more particularly as you mentioned at the outset, these are small petty, partisan thinkers, at a time when the world has huge challenges. and, he is going to have to learn fast, he's going to have to grow fast, because the world demands it. we need to support our ally israel, we need to support our ally ukraine. we need to make sure that we can provide humanitarian relief for palestinians being used as human shields by hamas. we need to be able to do it all. and, this is a terrible start of the speakership. >> do you think that he is just i mean, right now, it looks as if there is a real continuing interparty war between the republicans in the upper chamber, and republicans in the lower chamber. mitch mcconnell does not improve, at least a terms of what he said, of what speaker johnson is doing, decoupling the ukraine aid from israel aid. how do you think this ends? >> i think it ends with our providing aid to israel, aid for ukraine. and i hope it ends up being jointly, done and in a bipartisan fashion. but you know, mcconnell is looking at playing at the same game in the senate, frankly just on the other aid package, with israel aid, the republican house speaker one at a time to, the republican dream of letting off wealthy tax cheats. in the senate, mcconnell is dreaming of combining ukraine aid apparently, with some republican harsh border bill. neither of those poison pills belong in these emergency aid packages. historically, they never have. we have taken up things individually, particularly during a time of war. and, i hope at the end of the day we get to a place we should have started. but the fact that it is going to take time, and it is going to involve the kind of division which are showcased in the house today you know, is just a welcome sign for putin, it's a welcome sign for hamas. and it's a welcome sign for iran and there other terrorist organizations they back. >> meanwhile, the republicans in the house have at least, at least 50 of them have time to sit for an interview with sean hannity, and raise their hand in support of an impeachment proceeding, or an impeachment process for president biden. i want to play a little bit of sound, from speaker johnson, talk about the impeachment process. this is from today. >> i do believe that very, soon we are coming to a point of decision on it. what you are seeing right now is a deliberate constitutional process. not the way the democrats do it, snap and peach mints, shamet petras, and all the rest. >> congressman, you were intimately involved in the impeachment proceedings in the house, what do you make of this current speaker of the house calling the way democrats did it as a snap impeachment, in a shame peach meant? >> well, he has a very short memory, apparently. we investigated, as you know, during a lengthy period of time, -- we didn't bring impeachment proceedings, and although many were urging us to do so at the time. it wasn't until his even more serious ukraine misconduct was discovered, that we initiated impeachment proceedings. and so, he has a very short and, evidently, a very inaccurate memory of things. but what we understood, is once we announce an impeachment investigation, that was gonna gather great momentum. it is why we held off for so long. but by kevin mccarthy announcing impeachment investigation, in the hopes that throwing that red meat to his base would save his speakership, and that is saved his speakership nor was the right move for the country. because it created this momentum, this train moving forward, that now may appear irresistible to these republicans that are so in the thrall of people like sean hannity and donald trump. >> and the speaker's intern, enthrall by the far-right conservative maga base, if you will, and his own conference. speaking of which, there is movement yesterday to expel george santos from congress. the vote failed 179 to 213. i know you missed that vote last night. there were also 31 democrats who voted not to expel congressman santos. one of them was your colleague jamie raskin. i wonder, how would you vote if you could vote tonight? >> i would have voted to expel them. but for -- i would have been there to vote to expel. i'm the evidence i against santos as i think pretty overwhelming. the republicans understand it just as much as we do. but, they want his vote anyway. they will take the vote of a serial liar any day of the week, to prop up their very weak, fragile, divided majority. and while i understand the argument of some of my democratic colleagues who opposed the motion to expel him, i think you have to look at the quantum of evidence, and not simply a -- because we ought to have a higher standard in the, house then a mere conviction of multiple felonies. >> congressman adam schiff, someone who still believes in standards in the house of representatives. >> i think that the other side of the aisle is doing much to disabuse that notion. congressman schiff, thank you for your time tonight, i appreciate it. >> thank you. not want to turn to stands -- for politics at politico. sam, thank you for being here. what do democrats do with mike, johnson leaving the house of representatives. ? >> well, i think we have to wait and see what direction this goes. and i mean, we have two things at once that are a big country. and one is that -- he signal to senate republicans that he does support ukraine. it he has said that he supports aid for israel. but he is also in the other direction, put this provision in for an israel only package that he knew would never get adopted by the senate. but so, the democrats from the hill that we talk, to and including the white house frankly, are just -- they don't know the guy particularly well, they have manageable time during -- i think you met with joe biden, or white house officials twice, and it was fairly ceremonial to this. and so they're kind of measuring him out, seeing what he is like. and ultimately, they are going to have to engage him. it is just a question of when, and what kind of numbers that could bring to. it >> while they are going to have to engage in, and he is going to have to engage them to. or at least he's going to have to engage some of the people who are standing in opposition to him. if the senate is going to throw this back in his face, and i guess i wonder what you think johnson's next move is there? >> i mean he knows, he made the republicans in this conference take the vote, knowing that it was dead on arrival in the senate, right? >> so. yeah and this is, this is the same problem that kevin mccarthy essentially makes. at some point, you probably do half to anger a portion of your caucus. and how much you anger them, could very well determine how long you hold on to the speakership. for mccarthy it was funding the government for a matter of months. and once he did that it was. the impeachment stuff that you were talking with adam schiff, he launched impeachment inquiry precisely to buy himself more time with the hard-liners in this caucus. and, that did not do the trick. so now, mike johnson faces basically the same issue. right how long can he placate those members of his caucus, before he has to bring to the floor, a vote to fund the government, potentially fund ukraine, and fun israel. and what kind of concessions could be maybe extract that would make it more palatable to the conservatives? they still have that small threshold that allows them to oust a speaker, if they choose to do so. >> will not only do they have that sort of legislative reality, or that sort of parliamentary reality in their grip. there is also the example of tommy tuberville, sitting in the senate, getting absolutely destroyed by his colleagues in his party, for this one man campaign that has borne no through to, that is held up 400 military appointments that he has been absent since february of this year. and he is not shutting down. i kind of wonder, to what degree. you know, house republicans look at that and say, that's the kind of guy want? >> right well i emphasize with -- and that's how my colleagues feel about me. they say it to me all the time. and so it makes a lot of sense to me i think mitt romney in a quid said something -- to just sort -- of -- and he used to be that you would kind of be a pariah, right, you get embarrassed by it but ultimately they would work around you but. in the modern day of politics, tommy tuberville frankly is a hero to a lot of people. he has he has shown no willingness to back off of what he is doing. there are very few points of leverage is. out sort of any ambitious rules, change they can pull over him. and if you talk to people in alabama, they respect him for what he is doing. and that really gets to the incentive structure that i think you are talking about, which is for modern politicians, the things to do now is to sort of stick your neck out and do something that would have been in another era, considered crazy an outrageous. four -- from your base -- fund-raise a ton of money. and sort of -- that's the idea that come here to the right. and i think tommy tuberville is a great example. that >> well yeah and the sort of diminishment of american politics. it used to be i mean, the bad development used to be republicans putting party before country. now it is just putting themselves for anything else. at the expense of their own party. these campaigns are being waged. sam stein, thank you my friend for your time tonight. it is great to see you >> so it's a pleasure. alex >> we have a lot more this. evening senate democrats in republicans are squaring off over justice clarence thomas, and his relationships with some very wealthy friends. plus, we have some breaking news about donald trump, his gag order, in this report. that is next. rsv can severely affect the lungs and lower airways. but i'm protected with arexvy. arexvy is a vaccine used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. rsv can be serious for those over 60, including those with asthma, diabetes, copd, and certain other conditions. but i'm protected. arexvy is proven to be over 82% effective in preventing lower respiratory disease from rsv and over 94% effective in those with these health conditions. arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects are injection site pain, fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and joint pain. i chose arexvy. rsv? 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[ cheers ] yeah! woho! running up and down that field looks tough. it's a pitch. get way more into what you're into we have some breaking news this when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. evening. lawyers for donald trump have filed an emergency motion in the d. c. circuit court, to appeal a gag order placed on him by judge tanya chutkan, in the federal case surrounding -- trump's lawyers right president trump's uniquely powerful voice has been a fixture of american political discourse for eight years, and central 40 american fabric for decades the. prosecution's claim that trump's core political speech suddenly pose a threat to the administration of justice, is baseless. trump's lawyers further make it clear that they want to take this issue all the way to the highest court in the land. if the court denies this motion, president trump requests that the court extend its administrative stay for seven days, to allow him to seek relief from the u.s. supreme court. joining me now is joyce vance, former district attorney for the northern district of alabama. joyce, thank you for being, here as we parse this breaking news here. first of, all on its face it doesn't seem all that surprising that trump is appealing anything, because that seems central to his defense strategy. but what do you make about this idea that he wants take it to the supreme court, and a relatively short order? >> so i think that is not surprising at all. this is a notice of appeal, and with the request first for a quick administrative state of the gag order. so you can go back, presumably to talk about witnesses and others involved in the case. and, then he asks for a full stay pending appeal. so it's a little bit of complicated legal maneuvering, and ultimately it could go up to the supreme court. if, as i think most people expect, this appeal will be not particularly productive for trump in the court of appeals. >> just to sort of bring in some other data points on that. i mean, trump has some interesting bedfellows, here in his fight against this gag order. the aclu is one of. them they believe this is an infringement on his first amendment rights. do you think there is, you sound pretty confident that the supreme court is not going to -- but is there any merit to the appeals on its face? so there is a difference between motions that ultimately may not help a defendant, and motions that are frivolous. and this one isn't frivolous. they will be making an argument about a high level of scrutiny for gag orders, involving political figures. and as trump's lawyers point out in this brief that they have submitted tonight, a court has never imposed a gag order on a leading presidential candidate. of course, that's because they're leading presidential candidate has never been under indictment while they have been running before. but there are some legitimate legal issues that the court can consider here. >> choice, i've got to ask you, because there is a lot happening in the criminal court system, as it pertains to donald trump. and, jack smith's office filed a motion this morning, urging judge cannon, who is of course the federal judge overseeing the mar-a-lago case down in florida, urging her not to be manipulated by trump's defense team, which is at once asking to push off the washington d. c. case, but also saying a packed -- prevents them for being part of the florida case on the timetable bus established. they are basically trying to have their cake and eat it. two and jackson's office seems to take notice of that, and is urging judge cannon to effectively ignore the -- made by trump's defense team. i found it interesting that they so directly and personally are asking the judge not to be literally manipulated in a in official court filing. to that seem unusual to you? >> i think it's a reflection of where they are in this case. judge cannon was always going to be a tough judge for them. they knew that, because of the proceedings in front of her, previous to this criminal case, where she had gone off and some of the crazy civil theory before the 11th circuit rain her in. but this direct use of the language, don't let them manipulate you, i think suggests that they are frustrated with her rulings. she has clearly been not measured, and not balanced in deciding if she is going to involve trump's ability to delay the case. and, so they are pointing out that he is trying to delay all cases, using this same argument, playing one judge against another. that's in sharp contrast to this motion that we see regarding the gag order tonight, where they are asking for speed, almost unheard of speed, telling the court of appeals that they want a decision just shortly over a week, which would barely provide sufficient time for briefing on this gag order request. so, a very interesting discrepancy between trying to delay the trial, while preserving trump's rights to go out in public and say whatever he would like to about witnesses, and court personnel. >> yeah, interesting tactics that maybe gives rise to an incoherent strategy, more broadly. but joyce, i have to ask, just from a lawyer lee perspective, is it a bad move to get so personal with a judge? does that help jack smith's case, or does it hurt it, to suggest how ever much of it is subtext, that judge cannon has been manipulated by trump and his defense? >> so look, i think it suggests that i think they have nothing left to lose, with this judge. they tried early on to play nice, to be respectful, to move forward, in an even-handed fashion. that has not worked for the prosecution. they may now be regretting, they may have a little bit of buyers remorse over trying to not posture the case early on, so that they could request a recusal,. if they do that now, they run a great risk of slowing down the case themselves by doing that. so they will do their best to try to encourage the judge to not give into these sort of manipulative efforts by trump's lawyers. and, this is familiar territory for federal prosecutors. when you have a defendant who is facing trial, or proceedings in more than one jurisdiction. it is not unheard of for them to try to play off one judge against the, other and get cascading delays. so, what the special counsel's office is doing here is just a very straightforward heads up to the judge, saying don't be taken in by, this we will let you know what is going on and all of the cases. and perhaps ultimately, where this will be headed is that the judges will all put their heads together, and confer on schedule ei. suspect that is what all the prosecutors would like to see happen. >> yes, in all of the judges have cell phones, presumably, they can talk to each other. they don't need to go through trump's defense. joyce vance, thanks you for your time, and thoughts, super helpful tonight, as we try to understand all of this, i appreciate it. >> thanks alex. >> when we come back, florida governor ron desantis is against cancel culture, except when he is for it. we will explain. plus, justice clarence thomas was the subject of heated debate today. we're gonna have more on that, coming up next. you know that feeling of having to rewash dishes that didn't get clean? 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we sure are. do you find this? relaxing >> oh yeah, it's away from the sort of mean as you see in washington. and you just get with the regular folks. and it is so pleasant. >> for years, that motorcoach has been a centerpiece of justice clarence thomas's every man persona. thomas has talked about the coach, he has done interviews on the coach, and he has otherwise made a show of how darn regular he is, by driving through america and talk to people he meets and walmart parking lots along the way. >> the inconvenient detail here is that according to the senate finance committee, it appears that justice thomas did not pay for that rv. and that rv did not come cheap. last week, the committee responding to reporting in the new york times earlier this year, released a reporand that t justice thomas received a loan of $260,000 for, my wealthy friend named anthony -- so that thomas could buy that 40 foot luxury motorcoach. back in 1990, 1999. and apparently, clarence thomas only paid $20,000 on that loan. and maybe, quite possibly, that is all. according to the committee report, based on the documents reviewed by committee staff, welters for gave a substantial amount, or even all of the principal balance of his loan, to clarence thomas. justice thomas, through a lawyer, told the new york times that the thomas is made all the payments until the terms of the agreement were satisfied, in full, but thomas would not answer questions about what the terms were, and what satisfied practically meant. and so journalists and senate democrats, are skeptical, especially given the fact of this new revelation comes on the heels of a series of bombshell reports by investigative journalists at propublica, detailing how justice thomas has been the recipient of a lavish gifts and trips and investments, from wealthy friends, including billionaire harlan crow, all through the last 25 years. and justice thomas has not disclosed any of it. now, democrats on the senate judiciary committee are pushing for more details here, and they have been following up on the media reports with fact-finding of their own. today during a committee meeting, democrats clashed with republicans over their plans to subpoena harlan crow for more information about his gifts to justice thomas. they also want to subpoena another republican donor, a man name robin r. kelly, as well as conservative activist leonard leo. both of whom have flatly refused to cooperate with the committee's investigation. >> let us be very clear, about what is going on here. the billionaire's, who are invested heavily in influencing the supreme court, have been caught giving enormous secret gifts, to individual justices. >> you all ought to be ashamed of yourself. >> because you are the ones, who always profess how you were defending our democracy. you are the ones undermining our democracy. >> the highest court in the land, cannot have the lowest standard of ethics in the government. >> this is a fight you want, this is your want to get it? >> the panel is set to vote next week on whether to issue those subpoenas. so stay tuned. >> when we come back, tonight, israel says its troops have not completely encircled gaza city, and are engaged in face-to-face battles with hamas. the quote, concept of a cease-fire, according to an israeli military spokesman, it's currently not on the table at all. that, as key voices here in the u.s. urge israel to change its approach. we will have more on that, next. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ [bell ringing] and doug says, “you can customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual.” he hits his mark —center stage— and is crushed by a baby grand piano. are you replacing me? with this guy? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache! oh, look! a bibu. [limu emu squawks.] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ inez, let me ask you, you're using head and shoulders, right? only when i see flakes. then i switch back to my regular shampoo. you should use it every wash, otherwise the flakes will come back. tiny troy: he's right, you know. is that tiny troy? the ingredients in head and shoulders keep the microbes that cause flakes at bay. microbes, really? they're always on your scalp... little rascals... but good news, there's no itchiness, dryness or flakes down here! i love tiny troy. and his tiny gorgeous hair. he's the best. - make every wash count! - little help please. if you are in our country, on a student visa, and you are making common cause with hamas, i am canceling your visa, and i'm sending you home. >> this weekend, florida governor and republican presidential hopeful ron desantis explained that if elected president, he wants to cancel the visas of any students he perceives are making common cause with hamas. desantis focused significant portion of that speech not just on israel, but on colleges. now the government has made a bogeyman out of higher education with -- on race, and racism as well as diversity, equity, and inclusion programs but in this speech, he tied those educational bogeyman to discrimination against israel. >> this whole thing of dei, diversity, equity and, inclusion, that is anti israel, it is anti-jewish, 100 percent if you take that to the logical conclusion. >> so, governor desantis wants to censor all of. he does not want college talk about race or gender, or apparently gaza. and he is not alone. the new york times reports that groups that have led campaigns to oust school board members, and remake stake curriculums, have also jumped into the fray. parents defending education, a conservative nonprofit organization, says that it fights indoctrination in the classroom, it started tracking incidences that school leadership appeared to criticize israel. and moms for liberty, a national conservative group, has warned that progressive school administrators are trained at the same universities allowing antisemitic protests. joining me now is peter. editor at large of jewish currents magazine. peter, thank you for being with me tonight. i wonder what you think the net effect is, of having anti woke organizations, like moms for liberty, jump into the fray here. >> i mean it's just an extension of the incredible hypocrisy we've been seeing from conservatives over the past few years about this. on the one hand they really against cancel culture, they attack liberal snowflakes who don't have the stomach for real debate, and then they go and try to ban books or banned content that discusses lgbt things and they are extending that to the israel palestine debate. they're so confident about their position in defense of the israeli government and its policies in gaza or whatever, then have the self confidence to have those debates on college campuses, which is what is supposed to happen on college campuses, as opposed to what desantis is doing which is ordered them to shut down the palestinian groups on the campuses of the florida universities. >> i do wonder if you think the transparent political goals of these groups and of someone like desantis hasn't effect on the contours of the factor among democrats, and the different wings of the democratic party that are arguing for more or less support of israel as it wages war in gaza? >> well wall i would hope democrats would agree on regarding their position on israel's policy in gaza is that people should have the right to openly debate israel's policies and gaza. it's not actually just around the sentence the anti-defamation league has a little called on the foreign investigation of the pro palestinian student groups, it was roundly kind dam just this week by the aclu for doing that. but i think democrats should agree on is regardless of your position students have the right to articulate their positions without being shut down by campus administrators. >> i do wonder peter, setting a college debate aside, the broader debate over what israel is doing, the role of hamas, what is happening to the civilians and the children in gaza, do you feel like the sort of narrative on that is shifting among at least democrats? today senator dick durbin and chris murphy came out and were very vocal about serious reservations they have about israel's strategy here. does it feel like the titans shifting? >> a little bit, there is a huge gap between what democratic politicians are and democrats are on the ground. first of all the people who support the invasion to not have good answers for the endgame. they don't have a good answer for what comes after they toppled hamas. is there reminiscent of the lack of answers that american leaders had when they went into iraq and afghanistan. secondly because according to save the children, we don't have to believe the hamas run health ministry, 3000 children have been killed in gaza already. that is more according to save the children then in an entire year in armed conflict in the year since 2019. so nothing good is going to come of this massive destruction of gaza we are seeing. >> i do wonder whether you think we are getting closer to a more inclusive dialogue about what is happening here or further away from it. i tend to see hopeful signs through the day but it seems like a desperate plea disparaging conversation that i have a hard time believing it is evolving. >> well kate is because there is unbelievable agony among israelis and unbelievable agony in the jewish communities. i see it all around me all the time. there is unbelievable agony among palestinians and there is a tremendous amount of polarization and pain. i think there are certain basic principles that we should try to agree on. one of them, is the principal's free speech. you don't have the right to violence of course, but you do have the right to articulate your opinion especially on the college campus. second of all, things like international law and human rights are really, really critical. even when you are at war with an organization like last. that has committed war crimes and has done terrible things. just as the united states after 9/11, despite what al-qaeda did we had a moral obligation to try to adhere to certain norms because it was about us. we have to hold israel to those same standards, it's not good for israel to commit wholesale more crimes. >> peter beinart author of the beinart notebook, and editor at large of jewish currents, thank you for your time tonight peter, i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> still ahead, as presidential hopeful ron desantis keeps falling short, in the polls, he is looking for any strategy that might give him a boost. but at this point, in the primaries, can he get a leg up anywhere? 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make it arexvy. >> according to new nbc polling released this week, 43% of likely iowa republican caucus goers said that they would choose donald trump as their first choice in the caucuses. governor ron desantis is now tied with former south carolina governor nikki haley at 16%, and that means the gloves are off. >> are you wearing higher heels than ron desantis next week at the debate so you can look taller than him on the stage? >> i don't know, we will have to figure that out. i can tell you i've always talked about my high heels, you know, i've never hid that from anybody, i've always said don't wear them if you can't run in them. >> joining me now is tim miller, msnbc analyst and writer-at-large at the bulwark. tim the most interesting thing about ron desantis right now is a discussion about whether or not he wears a lift in his cowboy boots. what does it say about his candidacy? >> doesn't say anything good, alex. as a former press staffer for presidential campaign, this is what you call being in the barrel, it's not nice when your boss does interviews and is asked about his boots, and it's happened with ron desantis several times, i have breaking news for our viewers -- just about an hour ago desantis was asked about this, and he tried to turn it on trump in a weird way and was like well if trump has the balls to show up to the debate, i will wear the boots on my head. really weird quote. very reminiscent of little marco, i'm starting to have ptsd from the 2016 campaign. when you're trying to do this and make a joke out of the high heels, that is the talk of the town. that is not a sign that you are on a path to a come back. >> you're just getting ptsd from 2016, that's impressive. tim, i think the reason we are talking about -- the reason we're talking about a lift is because -- personally i think what it gets to is a core belief that ron desantis would do anything to be the front runner and that explains his policies in florida all of it is in service to the presidential bid or the nomination that seems to get further and further from his grasp, as the months tick on. the boots are an indication of the humiliations he will endure himself. the humiliation he visits on the other, including the migrants he sent to point north without any warning or resources, then he will do anything, that's why it seems particularly devastating, right? if the criticism gets to something essential to the character of the nominee that's when it's something you don't recover from. >> absolutely it does play into the phoniness, a 13 as, the idea that ron desantis is trying so hard to be a maga tough guy and will do anything, be mean to the migrants, mean to the kids in schools that have gay families, he will be mean to whoever as only as it will make the maga voters love him. as long as it makes him a tough guy. it's him playing this part, acting this role of what he thinks maga voters want, because ron desantis was just a typical ivy league politician until five years ago, just one that has a little bit more of an appetite for cruelty then other ivy league politicians. voters can smell that, he might be saying the word that a maga candidate would say but he is not the authentic outsider they are looking forward. donald trump is the authentic outsider they're looking for. and then the minority who want someone who is more of a traditional conservative, he is not offering that either, he's stuck in a sour spot. >> the national review is arguing that more candidates need to exit the field to allow nikki haley to consolidate support. it is imperative that donald trump not be the republican nominee in 2024. president trump is currently the favorite for the gop nomination by a large margin, he would likely lose a head to head match against haley. is that wishful thinking from a publication that is decidedly anti trump or is that legitimate? >> yes, i agree about the first sentence alas they should not nominate donald trump. the last sentence is [inaudible] i would like some of what they are smoking. nikki haley can't win a head to head with trump, the majority of the party likes trump that's the problem. in order to beat you need to be someone that --, that was the desantis's pitch, and he fell on his face. nikki doesn't appeal to them, 30% -- she can keep going up i think nikki haley would be a much better nominee than donald trump. that should be a unanimous opinion just for our democracy, for our country but that is just wish casting and the people of the national review and the other conservative outlets, they miss their opportunity to stop trump. they had a chance, they should have been pressuring republicans to vote to convict him during the impeachment in 2021, they should've done it in 2022. they should've been going after him throughout the teams. but they didn't. they got it on board and now they've lost control of their own audience. >> i do wonder, tim, counter to what the review advises that folks like desantis and haley stay in those longer than they normally would because precisely of the trump factor. the x-factor being the criminal indictments and the trials that await him next spring and maybe summer. is that their insurance policy effectively? >> yes, and they told me this when i was in iowa and wrote for the -- they don't know what donald trump's legal woes will bring. there is an argument for staying in the race getting the delegates you get for second third place, that mainly republican contests take all. that might not actually play out like. that is definitely something they are considering and that they are looking at, should we, you know, gather delegates just in case something happens to trump and there is a convention fight. that feels like real fan fiction. the interesting thing is the desantis team convinces themself of that, then maybe he stays around longer an

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