chutkan reconsidered her decision and her new arguments from the special counsel and donald trump's criminal defense team. trump's attorneys wanted it removed on first amendment grounds, but judge chutkan reiterated in her ruling last night that, quote, as the court hasexained, the first amendment rights of participants and criminal proceedings must yield when necessary to the administration of justice. contrary to defend this argume, the right to a fair trial is not his alone, but belongs austin to the government and the public. defendants repeated appeals to broad first amendmentes, therefore ignore that the court pursuant to its obligations to protect the integrity of these proceedings recognize those values, but and balancing them against potential prejudiced from certain types of statements, found them outweighed. the gag order limits what trump says about potential witnesses in the case, as well as special counsel. it does not stop him from attacking president biden, the justice department, or even judge chutkan herself. one of those potential witnesses is trump's former attorney, william barr, who trump slammed on social media last night a little more than an hour after the judge had filed her decision. at a 21 pm last night, trump posted, quote, i call bill barr dumb, weak, slow-moving, lethargic, got loose and lazy, a rhino who couldn't do the job. that's an all caps, if you're listening. bill barr is a loser, all caps. judge chutkan and special counsel's team have not yet responded to the social media attack on bill barr. the remarks are part of a pattern for the former president. while the gag order was on pause last week, trump lashed out at another potential key witness in the case. mark meadows. on tuesday last, week trump weighed in on a report from abc news that meadows, trump's former white house chief of staff had testified in the case under an immunity deal. and a social media post, trump insinuated that meadows testimony was a, quote, a lie. common judge chutkan now concluded would have been a violation of the gag order, writing in her decision last night, quote, this statement would almost certainly violate the order unr any reasonable definition of taetg. the statement singles out a foreseeable witness for purposes of characterizing his potential unfae testimony as a, quote, to lie, quote made-up to sece immunity, and attacks him as a, quote, we cling and coward if he provides out unfavorable testimony. an attack that could readily be interpreted as an attempt to influence or prevent participation in this case. trump and his attorneys are appealing judge chutkan decision on the gag order, and in just a moment, we will hear from former acting solicitor nil cocktail about their prospects. it's worth remembering, a separate trial, a new york judge in the civil fraud case against trump, has already found trump to have committed to separate violations of a different gag order. after the second violation, the judge find him $10, 000, and talking to imprison him. a penalty that highlights the difficulty of enforcing a gag order on former president of the united states. leading off our discussion tonight, neil cocktail, former -- of the united states and host of podcast courtside with neil and paul butler, a professor of law at georgetown university and former federal prosecutor. they are both msnbc legal analyst. neil, give us reaction to judge chutkan's decision to reinstate the limited gag order in this case. do you agree that trump is unlikely to succeed in his appeal? >> the judge is absolutely right. no, i don't think there's any chance trump is going to succeed on his appeal. so, look, first of all, trump is basically trying to win his court case the same way he's trying to win the 2020 election, which is to mix up a bunch of his lawlessness and intimidation and combined together. the judges order is really hard to appeal. he's going to try, just like he tried 62 times in 2020 with different courts to try and claim some sort of election problems, and he lost them all, he's going to lose this. he's going to lose this, jonathan, for two reasons. one is, the judge's order is very surgical. it allows trump to attack biden, attack a lot of things. the one thing she said you cannot do, drummond violence against witnesses or intimidate the true seeking process. that's exactly what donald trump is doing. that is the second point, i think she's on such firm ground. no one on this planet has made a better case for why this guy quarter needs to be in effect then a guy named donald trump. he provided the very best evidence against his motion and you are referring to that earlier. we talked about his tweets about the william barr. his tweets about mark meadows, all of this shows the guy cord are absolutely necessary because trump is dangerous. he's a danger to the witnesses, he's a danger to the prosecutors, who he lies about, and most of all he's a danger to the rule of law. >> the judge in trump's civil fraud trial is seemed reluctant to bring the hammer down on trump for guy quarter violation. finding him $5,000 for his first violation, 10,000 for a second. but, not much of a penalty for so-called billionaire. self-described billionaire. how do you think judge chutkan will handle any violations? >> i think it is going to be also -- she has the power to put trump in jail if he continues to violate. i think that is extremely unlikely unless he does something super outrageous of the judge thinks is putting peoples lives in danger. but, the two fines last week in the civil fraud case were not the only time trump has been sanctioned in that case. last year, when trump refused to something he had to do, which is to turn over documents to letitia james, then the judge held them in contempt and fined him $110,000. jonathan, guess what? that worked. so, finds may actually work on the former president, but the 15,000 was fined last week was trump change. it's got to be a billion dollar refined sitter suited for a billionaire that might make a difference. >> did he pay that $110,000? >> i believe. >> he paid? it okay. you know. oscar's lawyers. he doesn't pay them. neil, judge chutkan said she might move the date of the trial up if she finds trump has violated the gag order. that would be huge to trump considering he doesn't even want to try to take place until after next year's election. is it more likely she throws him in jail or move up the case? >> i'm so glad you asked that, because i agree with paul that jail is relatively unlikely right now. that's because she does have this interim remedy available to her. she said from the start, which is, donald trump if you keep violating these guy orders, i have a remedy, and it is to move the trial of because we do not want to have sumoylation of witnesses and intimidation of witnesses. she has that fully in her toolkit. i expect her to use a. that will sidestep the whole questions about, oh you know you're chilling a presidential candidate this in that before trial. it will just be move the trial up, and there's nothing donald trump fears more than a trial. his entire shot a g is always july, delay, delay. he's afraid of a courtroom the way a vampire is afraid of sunlight. >> i was going to ask you something else. paul. i'm going to come to you by the column you wrote in the washington post with the headline, the prosecutors ticking on trump know what they're up against. you write that trump, let me just quote to you, which he wrote, you said trump's attack on these prosecutors's transparent attempt to rile up his base against black prosecutors who have the gall to focus on him. his incitement squarely aimed to remind his supporters with a real criminal supposedly are, black and brown fo trump seems too long from the days black police officers in some jurisdictions could not arrest white people. like any accuse person, trump deserves due process, and he is getting it many times over. any black defendant who is viewed chose by the rhetoric about judges, witnesses, and prosecutors would have been locked up by now. paul, can you expand on that for us? is trump getting special treatment in these cases? >> the former president is getting extra, extra, extra due process, jonathan. make no mistake, if you or anybody else, he would have been locked up. the courts are going out of their way to give him special consideration. i do understand his concerns. he's running for president. but, the concern is that there is never been a criminal defendant who has the kind of megaphone that donald trump has. jack smith keeps reminding us that we do not have to speculate about whether trump can rile up his supporters to commit acts of violence. the special counsel says that that is exactly what he did on january 6th. jonathan, when i was a public correction prosecutor, i got used to people. they discounted me because i am black. they discounted my qualifications. i answered my critics by winning my cases. i think that is exactly what letitia james, what's fani willis, and what they are all going to do. african american prosecutors are very glad that their leaders, and this fight to bring the former president to justice. >> neil, on a similar point. the justice department announced it charged alabama man for threatening fulton county d.a. fani willis, and the fulton county sheriff allegedly saying in a voice mail, and that quote, if you take a mugshot of the president and you are the reason it's happened, some bad expletives gonna happen to you. neil, is that an example of why it is important to limit what trump can say in these cases? >> exactly. that is an example a and. this you think about that effect on witnesses. not just the bars in mark meadows world, but other people who may testify this including the so-called fake electors in the like. you see trump strategy, which is to try and scare these witnesses from testifying against them, and ruining their lives by causing security threats in the light to them. most judges do not impose, jonathan, these kind of guy quarters, because most defendants know better than to threaten witnesses and condemn violence. when you got someone who's got the impulse control of a toddler, he got to treat them like one. that is when i think these judges ultimately have been doing and where they're going to have to keep doing and escalate to the point where serious remedies, including possibly jail time are on the line. >> neal katyal, paul butler, thank you for coming to the last word. coming up, donald trump is now on trial in colorado. today, a group of voters argued that donald trump is ineligible to hold off this again under the 14th amendment for his role in the january 6th attack on the capitol. congressman eric swallow who testified in that case today joins us next. next. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. i was a bit nervous at first but then i figured it's just walking, right? 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[inaudible] this belief that this was happening, that we were taking our coats off, that we were looking for weapons or how to use gas masks. we connected the president's tweets to our own safety, our own safety in the chamber. >> joining us now is democratic congressman eric swalwell of california. he was impeachment manager in the second impeachment trial of donald trump. he is a plaintive in the civil suit against donald trump for his role in inciting the january 6th attack on the capitol. congressman eric swalwell always great to see you. what did you tell the court and why were you called as a witness? >> jonathan, i will start by saying, unlike some individuals, i could follow a judges order. i am not going to talk about the merits of the case and the testimony. that was public and you played it. but, i will talk about donald trump's accountability or just lack of accountability. he's been a stranger to accountability for most of his career. as we see him being held accountable in a courtroom in new york from every guy order that he violates or being held accountable in washington d.c. as he threatens prosecutors are down in georgia, this is what it looks like when our rule of law comes together. so many of your viewers have told me and my own constituents have told me that he's going to get away with it. i know, what he's going to get away with this. people have just lost faith in the rule of law. i assured them so many times, and you and lawrence, have that it can work. so, all of these proceedings is the rule of law working. an independent jury stunt, a jury of peers will ultimately decide what happens. >> congressman, the judge weighed out some questions to be addressed about this civil war provision, whether it applies to presidents and the meaning of engaged an insurrection as used in the 14th amendment. what are your thoughts on that? >> the 14th amendment does lay out the qualifications to hold office. that is what the judge will ultimately have to decide. i will just say that, as a member of the house, i think every day what would have happened if the speaker of the house was in on what donald trump wanted to do. we had speaker pushed lucy provide him, we had mike pence who did not want to go along with what donald trump asked. maga mike, and that is not my >> that's what republican colleagues call him [interpreter] speaker of the house was the architect of the idea that donald trump could overturn the election. so, if republicans were to win the house in the upcoming election, and there was another challenge by donald trump, the speaker who believes that the will of the voters was not, matter and that violence can be more powerful than voting. >> what we have seen up until, now speaker mike johnston, maga mike as he is called by his colleagues. there were republicans who were trying to whitewash what happened on january 6th. regular tourist visit. or, something about political discourse, rational political discourse. what do you make of republicans who are still trying to whitewash the violence of that day? >> the reserve of looking colleagues are whitewashing what happened on january six is because it has to be a fiction in the reality of the voters if donald trump is going to be their nominee. spoiler alert, donald trump is well on his way to be nominees. so, they have to lie to the voters to, essentially take out of the voters mind what donald trump did that day. look, the republican party is a party that's no longer interested in governing or leading, or helping anyone who watches the show with any problem they have in their life. they are a law firm. insurrection led by maga mike johnston, who is only duty as they see it's a wake up every day and litigate the grievances of one client, and that's donald trump. that's what's going to be on the ballot. make sure democracy lives long enough to live forever, this upcoming election, or will we lose it forever? donald trump prevails. >> last week i talked to officer harry dunn about his new book recounting what happened to him on january 6th. his feelings about what folks are doing to try and erase the history, officer hodges testified in quote. i'm gonna read what he said. he said i was afraid for my life and my colleagues. i was afraid for the people in the u.s. capitol building. congressman, the vice president, what these people would do to them, and how it would affect our democracy. how important was officer hodges testimony which video, reminding people of just how violent this was? why trump supporters were there, and what they intended to do. >> jonathan, because of what officer hodges did that today, i am still alive. my colleagues are still alive. we were able to go back to the capital and count the votes. i displayed officer hodges bravery when i was one of the impeachment managers in the senate. for your viewers, they don't have to do it officer hodges did. they don't have to get beat up, bear spray, hit by a mob to be patriotic and to show their love for this country. they just have to register to vote and show up to vote to make sure we are never a country that has an attempted coup put on it. again. you could be just as patriotic as what dani hundred that. >> the vote is the citizen's most powerful weapon. congressman eric swalwell as always, thank you for joining us tonight. >> my pleasure. thank you. >> coming up, israel says it was able to free another hostage from hamas captivity as israel expands its offense in gaza. we will bring the latest news live from the region, plus, former deputy national security adviser ben rhodes will join us. copd isn't pretty. 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>> jonathan, throughout the night, we've been keeping an eye on the gaza skyline and repeatedly seeing rockets, a flare bombs, other devices headed into gaza and lighting up in pockets the skyline, just a bright orange. we've seen some rockets launched from gaza in the direction of israel. the majority of those appear to be receptive. the rockies you've seen headed into northern gaza, they have not, most of those from what we have seen have been landing inside northern gaza. israel has been very clear that they plan to continue with this ground defensive. you see some of those flares going up in that direction. that pocket right underneath is where the majority of strikes we've seen tonight, a lot of them have been concentrated in the northwest corner of gaza. that is where israeli forces and initially entered into gaza strip on friday. that area is where hamas said some of their militants had engaged in what they described as violent clashes with israeli forces. that area is being hit a lot tonight. what we know the death toll inside of gaza is rising. the hamas-run causative ministry of health says over 1000 people have died. unicef says more than 2300 children have died inside of gaza. the humanitarian crisis there is growing larger every day. the international calls for cease-fire are growing as well. as you heard from prime minister netanyahu he has no plans to do that. he says a cease-fire is not something that they are considering at all. he says, as you pointed out, this is a war hamas started, and israel plans to finish it. that being said, there's some disagreement on the israeli side about this ground offensive, as these operations expands. family of hostages still held inside of gaza. at least 1 to 38 of them, most of those families are now calling for an exchange. they say, instead of this ground offensive right now, what they want to happiness for israel to agreed to release more than 4000 palestinian prisoners currently held in israeli jails and exchange for all the hostages. that's something hamas said they would be willing to do when prime minister netanyahu, was asked about the proposal at a press conference, just last night our time a little earlier in the day. he said he would not get into details about that, but then reiterated again that he believes this is a war hamas started and they plan to finish. they have three goals, dismantle hamas, secure the borders, and bring those hostages back. as the days past for those family still waiting, there is so much fear and agony, because what israel has been doing is targeting the tunnels, the infrastructure hamas has underneath gaza, and that's the exact same place israel has said they believe hamas militants took those hostages abducted on october 7th. jonathan. >> reporting from israel gaza border, thank you for your report. joining us now from tel aviv is from the new york times, author of rise and kill first, the secret history of israel's targeted assassinations. thanks for coming back to the show. with the latest you are hearing from inside israel tonight? >> i think the military command are happening with the advancement of the offensive. towards the public, towards the media, and i think your correspondence there learned that they're using very vague language. they're not saying where, when, whites,, if how many forces. what i hear from the forces is that the advancement is continuing. they started on friday. at the same time, all lights and electricity and communication were turned down by serious heads. i think israel is trying to use this kind of military fog in the battlefield to achieve as much as possible, advancing so lowly, but with the aim of, as they said to dismantle hamas. there's a level of what -- you cannot destroy of movement which is in the heart, the minds of people. but, i think israel is trying to get to a point where at least most of the city that hamas built would be destroyed, and much of these -- beside rocket would be destroyed and much of the leadership would be -- by israel. this is still very far away from where israel is. it will be a total concurring of the whole of the strip, and the concern from the israeli side is how much time international community will let israel continue the fierce fighting before trying to enforce a cease-fire. according to cease-fire, but force israel to agree. >> ronan, your latest reporting talks about the intelligence failures on october 7th, that it is clear the attacks were possible because of a cascade of failures over recent years, not hours, days, or weeks. quoting from your piece new york times. you said israeli security official spent months trying to warn mr. netanyahuthat the political turmoil caused by his domestic policies were weakening the country security and emboldening israel's enemies. in this case, political spd and, 's netanyahu efforts to keep our had terrible consequences. tell us about that. >> mr. netanyahu -- shortly after they won in the election of last year. they announce what they call a legal reform, judicial reform, which was basically a fierce attempt to turn the country from democracy to as the opposition says, something closer to dictatorship, with far less power to the judicial level of the supreme court, and power to the government. what happens political crisis that ensued as my colleague -- that led to a weakening of the military. society, processes that were not completely ignored by israeli enemies. they saw that and felt, maybe this is the time to strike israeli military and the intelligence again and again warned mr. netanyahu. they said, our enemies sees our weakness and if this process continues, we are on a serious national security threat that they will attack. mr. now netanyahu since mid february, until the recent days before the attack, netanyahu did not take them seriously, and he ignored the chief of intelligence. in one case, he even refused to see the chief of staff was about to deliver secret information about this process about how israeli decisions are seeing him. how they see among themselves, hamas, iran, islamic jihad, hezbollah, how they say amongst themselves, maybe this is the time to use the witness and attack. i think mr. netanyahu is quite concerned from what the investigation committee will say. everybody understands it will be established soon. a tweet just this saturday show that after we handed over the story, repeated what we received in the statement in english, using intelligence community. they are the one to be blamed with the public appall, he apologized to lead but still has a deep crisis between mr. netanyahu and the military and intelligence community. >> yeah ronen bergman, thank you. joining us now, ben rhodes, former deputy national security adviser to president obama and msnbc political analyst. ben rhodes, prime minister netanyahu is rejecting pleas for cease-fire ink. here is what white house national security spokesperson john kirby had to say earlier on the subject. >> we do not believe a cease-fire is the right answer right now. we believe that a cease-fire right now benefits hamas. hamas is the only one who would gain from the. >> ben, i would love to know, is that the right position for the united states to be taking right now? >> what i'm concerned about is that there's kind of this binary in the discourse that's either israel's doing what it's doing right now, and i should say the israeli government led by netanyahu is doing what is doing right now. or, there's a cease-fire and there's no reaction. i just think that is the wrong way of looking at this. you know, i just want to call back to something prime minister netanyahu played in the clip you had earlier. he said, there will be no killing of palestinian civilians if they follow our instructions and move to the south of gaza. they bombed the south of gaza. they evacuate 1 million people down there and there have been people including children killed in the southern part of gaza. there have been over 3000 children killed. the question is not whether or not israel should respond to what was a horrific, barbaric attack by hamas. the question is not whether hamas is to blame for initiating this horrific violence. the question is what is the better way to protect israelis and to protect innocent palestinians? at a minimum, you've heard the administration talk about the necessity of humanitarian pause here, to get assistance in and population of over 2 million people, half of who are children, that the world is watching, under significant bombardment. the better way to build support for israel's efforts to rule of hamas, i think, is to find different approaches to have a more targeted effort to go after hamas and its leadership and military capabilities. try to build an alternative palestinian leadership, there's not this kind of binary choice between hamas governing gaza as kind of its own deep dictatorship. there is something else. to have a real horizon of peace between israelis and palestinians. why not to take a pause and to try to explore whether there are alternative ways of doing this. that is not too in any way suggested israel does not have every right to be furious about what happened, and insisted on security. the question is whether the choice is netanyahu is making. he's the prime minister. we just talk about the phillies are lit up to this. why is it that he is the person that should be trusted to be engaging in this military operation the way he is, whether or not there is an alternative force. i think the administration should be at least exploring whether they're alternative courses of action, the ions we're seeing today. >> you are using of that phrase, alternative course, this humanitarian pause that you talk about. but, another alternative course i think you talked about this a moment ago about, basically what comes next in gaza once this is done. he wants to eradicate hamas from gaza, but i have yet to hear an articulation of a plan of what does hamas post look like? who governs a territory once this is over? >> a lot of hamas leaders are in turkey, they're in qatar. a lot of these guys aren't even in gaza. there is a lot of military targets in gaza. i don't suggest there is not a military wing of hamas, there's a lot of military capabilities, there are. israel has every right to be very concerned about that. the question is, what is the end point of this operation? is it to dismantle certain hamas capabilities, is it to displace en masse palestinians out of gaza? is it to build a different kind of palestinian leadership? is it to try and have peace with palestinian, or to try and kind of once again put gaza under a blockade, which we have learned was not a sustainable policy in terms of israel security. i think these questions remain. nobody would dispute the idea that you need to dismantle the military of hamas. some people might, but they shouldn't after horrific attacks that we saw on october 7th. the question is, what is the best way to achieve lasting peace and security for israelis and palestinians alike? i think that you have to stop and asked these hard questions before you set in motion a military dynamic that has its own launch. you could have israeli casualties children being killed on palestinian side, international outrage and isolation of israel. his lawyer dynamics in play here, i think the better course of action is to put a pause on this, and try to think through those questions so that you're going at this in a very methodical way, and not in a way that might prolong what has already been like a decades long conflict here. >> ben rhodes, you've given us a lot to think about. thank you for coming to the program. when we come back, president biden has called congress to provide new funding to both ukraine and israel. multiple republican senators opposed that plan and one of the most vocal has been florida senator rick scott. democratic opponent, former congresswoman debbie powell will join us next. start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. 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calling increasingly dire situation? >> good evening, jonathan. democracy is under attack. not only abroad, but also here at home. rick scott is one of the most extreme politicians. he is self serving. playing political games and this is a matter of national security. the senate must send much-needed aid to israel, to ukraine to our allies, to protect ukraine from the aggression from the aggression against ukraine. it also needs to include humanitarian aid for palestinians. we cannot continue to watch thousands of children to be killed who are really in the middle of that cross fire. look, rick scott actually is an extreme politician, not only when it comes to supporting our alliances abroad to protect our international security. he's also someone who supports a national abortion ban. last week, we saw one of the worst mass shootings in america in maine, and i said absolutely nothing. actually, what he did is he voted to allow people who are in danger of committing suicide or are in danger of harming others to have an easier access to get weapons. that is why, jonathan, i am running against rick scott. we need someone in russian can deceive it's going to protect from all of these attacks from extreme politicians like rick scott. i am asking everyone who is watching to go to debbie for florida.com, supports my campaign. i know together we can beat this man. >> i want to pick up on what you are talking about the mass shooting in maine, one of your fellow members of congress who represents lewiston mains. he switched his position from opposing assault weapons ban to supporting one, calling on congress to do something about it. are you hopeful that's more members of congress will come around and push for an assault weapons ban? >> we know, jonathan, that the majority of americans support an assault weapons ban. these are weapons that were created to kill many people in a matter of seconds. we cannot allow people who, whether they have mental illness or are criminals that are committing these crimes to have access to these weapons. it's something that is common sense. it's something that's extremely personal to me, jonathan. i lost my father to gun violence. now, that pin ties me to millions of americans that continue to see this gun crisis epidemic continue. the problem is that many politicians are by the gun law. they said with the nra just last week like i mentioned, they have a vote that gop politicians including rick scott voted to allow people that were mentally unfit to have an easier access to these weapons. what we need to do is pass common sense gun safety laws, which includes a ban on assault weapons. >> w have to keep this conversation going. be prepared, i'm going to call you have on my we can. show united states senate candidates, debbie mucarsel-powell, thank you for joining us tonight. we will be right back. be right back. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. 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