Lewisten, maine. Police say the suspect is armed and dangerous, and a shelter in place order has been issued for the entire county that is right there in maine. Police have identified 40yearold robert card for a Person Of Interest, and officials have released this picture of mr. Card. They also released these pictures of the attack. The shooter opened fire just before 7 00 p. M. Eastern time at a Bowling Alley and a Bar Grill Restaurant Both in lewiston. Law enforcement sources 15 to 20 people are reported dead. But heres what we heard at News Briefings held in maine just a short time ago. This is general caution to the public approximately 6 56 this evening a couple of shooting incidents occurred here in with multiple casualties in the city of lewiston. And police are currently searching for a robert r. Card. Hes considered a Person Of Interest. And thats what well label him at moving forward until that changes. If people see him, they should not approach card or make contact with him in any way. The shelter in place order that currently stands iplewiston remains. A vehicle which was a vehicle of interest in this incident was located in lisbon, and were now also asking residents in lisbon to shelter in place. Mr. Card who were speaking about right now is a Person Of Interest and Person Of Interest only. Im not listing him as a suspect at this point. And were not prepared today go into his background or anything else we may be aware of. In addition to those killed police say at least 50 people were injured in the shooting in the resulting rush to escape the gunfire. Lets go to sam brock. Sam, what do you know about this Person Of Interest, and where was he last seen . Reporter alex, good to be with you. And important to note were only 7 hours into this intensive manhunt. Where im standing in lewiston, its quiet. Thats one vehicle in the road there. Theyre blocking access right now to spare time, which is the Bowling Alley you just referenced, the site of at least two shootings that took place at 7 00. As were awaiting more answers tuesday your questions about where he was last seen authorities believe his vehicle was located about 15, 20 minutes due east of where im standing and that was in lisbon. And its a town about 37,000 people. Its the second most largest most populous city in all of maine. This is a part of the country where theres not a Huge Population center so to speak. One, everywhere you go, people are glued to their Television Screens right now. I came from brunswick, durham area about 30, 35minute drive away from here. And i was talking to folks at a local hotel and asked them what kind of alerts did you get, and one did receive an alert from her phone, another did not but said they had calls from friends and family. They said they knew this guy, but she knew neighbors on the street where he lived in durham, again only about 30 minutes or so from where im standing right now, and i asked were they fearful . How did they feel hearing this information of someone who according to police, according to investigators shot and killed as you said between 15 and 20 people and injured another 50, although its not clear all those injuries were related today gunfire. But in totality dozens upon dozens of People Killed and injured in two different locations and what do they think of this. And she said they were all aware of the fact there were Mental Health issues with card. I would site the maine information and analysis center, they are saying right now hes someone who had experience in the reserve, 40 years old, considered armed and dangerous, was a firearms instructor. And certainly weve all seen the images of him at this point of him carrying a Semiautomatic Rifle of what appears to be preparing to shoot people without any obscuring of his face, clear as day as to who this person can be. Specifically one woman said she has a grandson 9 years old he said something recently that alarmed their family and theyve bip trying to get a Mental Health care physician for him, and its been months that theyve been unable to do so. And they say theres potential ely no access to those in need. According to that database he also reported Hearing Voices and threatened to shootup or voiced threats of shooting up a National Guard base. So this is all information coming visa vi a database for Law Enforcement identifying this individual. Thats who theyre looking for, and its officials from local, state, and federal sources who are out here. I will leave you with this. I did think it was kind of strange coming out here, its so dark i did not see Law Enforcement. That may be the areas where i was. Perhaps they thought hes long left lewiston, but youre just going through these roads where its miles upon miles of wooded emptiness. Another one of the challenges of how sparse it is. You can go a mile or two without seeing a house. I did see a handful of Law Enforcement officers cars from all over the state at various places, gas station obviously over my shoulder now at spare time. But it wasnt necessarily the drag net style saturation one might have expected, but they might have intelligence we do not have as to where he might be. As you said many people right now in communities all over the state are sheltering in place unsure of what the next update will be. Youve given me incredible insights there. Thank you for that, sam. Let me ask you about something. Granted, it is dark and youve driven half an hour, 35 minutes or so to get to this location. When you talk about it being wooded, we are past the prime fall foliage peak in that area. I know trying to surveil someone in those conditions with the leafy overhead can be muddled up by that. Did the trees you were able to see in the area, did they look more sparse which will then give an advantage to Law Enforcement as they search for him . Reporter thats a great question. It didnt look thick. I mean the trees did not look thick, whether or not theres been a lot of lost foliage at this point hard to say in the dark, alex. They werent there either. If youre talking about trying to use thermal image to see whats out there right now, would that pose a threat, i couldnt say definitively. But it didnt seem to be so dense it would be difficult to necessarily spot someone hiding in that brush if in fact thats where card is right now verse ths many different paths or potential routes he could have chosen. Hoping right now Law Enforcement has him tracked somewhere close. You make a good point. We dont know where hes on foot, whether hes acquired another car somehow or another and could be miles away. And thats part of whats presenting such a problem. We should note as you have again that there are local, state, and federal authorities all there. Have you heard anything like the sound of helicopters overhead, seen any spotlights looking in the area for somebody . Reporter no, i have not. I have not heard helicopters. And again just for full disclosure here ive been on the ground for about an hour and a half, two hours now. Again, surprised to see the lack of police cars zipping down streets as you would be accustomed to seeing in the thick of a manhunt, which leads me to believe it may not be directly in this area where i am right now, but theyre concentrating their efforts. Certain degrees of caution and people bunker down where they are, not venturing out. If theres one other thing that stands out, its the lack of cars on the roads. Perhaps those in the communities are listening to words of advice and not traveling outright now and allowing Law Enforcement to do its job. Shelter in place has definitely been the edict put out there for everybody, all the residents and businesses in the area. There is an advantage it is 2 00 on the east coast, 2 00 in the morning so people are hopefully safely inside their homes. Sam, stick around with me for a second. Right now i have bob demico joining me. Give me your assessment, rob, of what you think is going on from the description we just heard there from my colleague, the fact there arent a bunch of cars all in one area circling around and doing what he described as kind of a drag net. What does that tell crow . One, its not a heavily populated with Law Enforcement area, and its the middle of the night. So theyre having units and police get up and start responding. Theyre probably going into their local Law Enforcement centers and departments and then getting dispatched over to where they think they need them. I think right now theyre trying to figure out is he on foot or did he get a vehicle . Id heard earlier through an app that they suspected he was in a different vehicle, they had a dripgz of the vehicle, but you have to base that on whether it was on witnesses, was it on a vehicle was missing and they couldnt figure out where it was. Two witnesses could see the same thing. So i think theyre really trying to determine is he in a vehicle because now you have time and distance on those roads doing 60, 70 miles an hour, making his way Anywhere Else . If hes on foot, it changes everything. And it gets a lot more dangerous if Law Enforcement are pursuing him on foot because of his tactics and his weapons, and he has a weapon that has optics on it, he could actually engage them from a further distance and from the dark. Yeah. So determining thats a priority. Your colleagues back where the crime scene was, i think they safely think hes out of there, and thats why youre not seeing police run up and down the road. Theyre probably right now in that town just securing the crime scenes so they can wait until these come in and process those because you can keep those and hold them. You dont have to process them right away. The priority is capturing him and eliminating the threat to others. 100 . And also if he did take a vehicle, if he stole my vehicle, i have tracking in it. So finding the owner of a vehicle if he took one asking if you have tracking in it, so lots of thing nowadays you can use to follow a vehicle. Even xm radio and other things if theyre in a vehicle he has they can start looking with cellular data and other things. Rob, to the things sam brock was reporting and it does seem rather dark and sparsely populated right now, part of the charm like the southwestern part of maine is that its country roads, right . But the fact this suspect, Person Of Interest, but i think very soon will be named a suspect given that we have pictures, the fact is when youre on these small roads, youre in the dark. If he is in a car, how much does that give him the advantage over Law Enforcement given the geography, the space were talking about, and the lack of man power from small towns trying to converge together . Yeah, its really tough. I would think it i would think knowing where he last was seen if he has a vehicle, start looking at what are the main thoroughfares to get through that. They obviously cant put Police Roadblocks on all the roads. When your looking at the pennsylvania escapee, they were trying to create a perimeter because it was a smaller distance, tighter. Up here its going to be vastly harder to get a perimeter. So i guarantee theyre going to have certain areas theyre going to be stopping vehicles. And thats why its good people are paying attention to the shelter in place, plus its 2 00 in the morning. That vehicles that have roadblocks and any vehicle that comes up, theyre going to stop. Again if he sees as roadblock and hes driving up there, whats he going to do . Is he going to engage them, ram them, get out and start shooting . Im sure theyre prepared for that, but thats another thing going to come up. For sure. The sparseness up there is going to make it difficult. I hunted eric rudolph three times, and mentioned the big thing of it being fall, it was a lot easier in the fall. And you can use Technology Even if theres some leaves on the trees, Thermal Scopes from helicopters can burn through that and see movement, especially if you dont have others moving around, it really helps you. Rob, stay with me. Im welcoming to the conversation right now chris proun, the president of brady. Id love your initial reaction to this latest Mass Shooting in this country. Its horrific. Im actually in San Diego County right now. I was with a lot of folks who care passionately about this issue, and the news came out of this Mass Shooting in maine, and its like so many other examples of this. A lot of questions youre asking right now about how did the shooter get this gun . What about an Extremist Protection Law that could have made a difference here . And analysis of maine law, i would say its really lacking in a number of important measures that other states have adopted that maybe could have made a difference here. So agony from my side we dont have standards across this country to make it harder for people to access guns who shouldnt have them, and more connections for Family Members and Law Enforcement to remove firearms from individuals who are clearly atrisk of harm to themselves or others. Very frustrated that mainers dont have that capability under law to do that while at all and should. Yeah. It was reported, sam brock reported that there were people in his neighborhood who really tried to get him some Mental Health access and werent able to do so. But i know that maine is also a state that does have a number of private firearms in homes. Its a Hunting State in the light. Does that give you, or should that give people a false sense of security . Im curious about people who buy guns always for a sense of selfprotection and the like. How often do you find things go awry when that is the intended erp purpose for guns in your home . We have about 40,000 gun deaths every single year. We have about 450 million guns, more guns than people in this country. If you look at the kind of gun deaths happening in that 40,000, a vast majority of them are from guns in the home that are not safely stored. Eight kids a day are killed or injured with guns in the home not safely stored. Thats 65 of our gun deaths are suicide, and thats largely with unsecured access of guns in the home. We dont know the details right now, but its absolutely critical every Single Person who cloozs to have a firearm in their home and family fire in their home end this kind of carnage by ensuring those guns are safely stored. That means unload, locked, ammo separate. The fact there are reports of a Person Of Interest, robert card, he was trained by the military. If that is indeed the case, kris, what are your concerns he is still at large . Grave concerns. Obviously it is imperative hearing from so many people in and around maine, and youve reported on this in complete lock down. Its terrified enough to know this has happened in our community, but then to know this individual is at large whos been trained in the military is obviously very, very terrifying. And the impact of this is not just on the Immediate Community but folks nearby who are also extremely fearful. And there are things in other states that have been adopted. Absolutely. I thank you for joining us from san diego. I know youre always trying to get your message out to people with whom youve been associating there. Thank you for joining us right now. Very quickly i want to go to sam brock because i know sam has to take off again. So hes got to do some reporting and dig around for what he can find. Give us a sense, sam, of the community there. I know you just got there an hour or so ago, but it does have a very small town vibe to it, does it not . Super small town vibe, alex. I would say that was the first question i asked them with the people i interacted, it was apparent there was not a ton of people to communicate information and i was wondering how they found about these crimes. And all of them discussed the fact lewiston is 37, 40,000 people, the second largest city in maine after only portland. A few Tens Of Thousands of people tells you everything you need to know. It does feel like a Small Community pretty much everywhere you go. Driving around these downtowns, they last a couple of blocks, and thats it. And theres large miles of swaths of land where theres virtually no business or residential activity. And, again, im standing not far away, maybe a quarter of a mile from spare time recreation, the Bowling Alley where reportedly there were more than 100 people inside. About five minutes ago while you were talking with kris, five to six police cars, all unmarked cars, came through here, checked in at the checkpoint and kept ongoing. What that has to do strategically and what information they were able to collect in the last few hours, not clear. When you look at the profile of mass shooters its fairly clear whether its uvalde or choose your shooting, theres oftentimes a link to Mental Health issues or red flags that have been raised over a period of years and people dont necessarily intervene and it leads to this. Or the system is not prepared to help people who clearly do need the assistance. I did get a phone call from people who lived on card street saying they were aware he had Mental Health issues and there could have been behavior linked to said Mental Health issues, and this is thirdhand by someone who knows the neighbors. They werent necessarily threatened by his presence or Something Like this could happen, but there was perhaps not enough intervention. Certainly the question has to be asked given everything going on in the world right now if there were signs being related to terrorism or biases towards certain populations or religions. There was none of that according to investigatorsch it appears this has to do with someone who has problems and ended up shooting 15 to 20 people and injuring some 50 plus others. Were trying to find robert card, someone who according to a database from Law Enforcement reported Hearing Voices and hed thought about shooting up a National Guard base. This is a person with Military Experience as well, according to the same database who according to authorities appears to have this is a Person Of Interest but maybe the one who committed these crimes and at the center right now. Speaking of the center, just to add a bit further heart break than that that exists, we have the spare time recreation center, and it was a Bowling Alley. You may not be aware it was a youth night, which is pretty tragic to think about the ages associated with this. Sam brock, i appreciate your time with us. One more question to rob d mico, given youve been on an fbi hostage rescue team, im certain youve dealt with shooters and people who are Holding People hostage that are dealing with Mental Health issues. When you see the lack of ability to address that out in the community in advance of these type of heinous acts, what goes through your mind . What needs to change . I think the Mental Health in the u. S. Is lacking, and i think there are resources and people dont know what to do, and everyone kind of treats it to a point where they dont want to be the ones to take the weapon or call. When this call came in, what were the options . I dont know when you look at different laws in each state, what are the options they would do . They didnt have to look back and say was there something we could have done legally that allowed us to do something, and then if not, then thats up to obviously the state legislative branch to look at that. But it is tough. I mean and especially when youre looking at someone and hes making threats, this is one of those ones everyone said, hey, we saw it coming, Mental Health issues, making overt threats, having the training, and having the weapons. And i think from what i read earlier, as soon as they knew who he was and they contacted the Family Members, i think one of the Family Members told them go check out this other place, too, probably because hed said something about that. Its one of the ones they hadnt been to, and they were like, hey, you may want to look at this one. So there were definitely known things out there and its just a shame we didnt have anything to help. He recently reported Hearing Voices and threats to shootup the National Guard base in maine. That may be what youre referring to. Thank you so much for starting us off this one. Were going to hear from a former nypd officer on the next steps investigators will be making in this case. Thats next for you here on msnbc. N this case. Thats next for you here on msnbc. That i can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. Thats why i switched to dovato. Dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. 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Approaching the bottom of the hour as we go back to our Breaking News from lewiston, maine, a deadly shooting with Police Still Searching for a suspect. Officials say between 15 and 20 people are dead. They have identified 40yearold robert card as a Person Of Interest. And in the last hour we heard from the mayor of auburn, maine, that is a neighboring community to lewiston, where a Reunification Center has been setup. Heres some of what he told reporters. Its unbelievable. We have our entire forceout here right now plus lewiston county state, everybodys here. Its one thing about maine. If youre not from maine, you wont understand it. But when someones in need, everybody comes. And everybodys come to this. Ive got volunteer and rescue in the back in case people need it. This is an all hands on deck situation. You can train for this but you can never be completely prepared. Ive been talking to a lot of officers tonight, and we all should be proud of them. Text messages out from folks, and Everybody Knows about this, and it obviously made national news. At this point were going to really focus inside our community, were going to heal our community. Were going to persevere and get through this. Its no time not to. It will take a while. Something like this doesnt just get solved overnight, and no one can expect it to, but weve had a really strong community. Weve overcome a lot, and well overcome this. Joining me now is the director for the center of the study of hate and extremism at california state university. And our relationship goes back many, many years. So welcome. Give us your first thoughts as you hear from Community Leaders on the response effort. This harkens back to me over 30 years ago when i was on your air with someone you liked and he liked very much, brian williams. What is so interesting here is that when the previous reports came in and said, oh, look, its not like we have these drag nets, i think what you see happening are more personnel and assets being deployed. This fellow if hes in a vehicle, there will be different ways to geolocate him. And thats one of the things theyre going to be looking at, looking at things that are relative to him, a vehicle he might have stolen. Does he have electronic assets that would ping . I dont want to go into too much detail, but theres also once you get on certain roads, the ability of cameras to locate vehicles. But i think right now its more of a down time. And whats happening is folks are are not what i mean is i dont think hes going to go out and doing a mass killing while everyones sheltered in place, and its quite late. So i think for now he is looking to escape or hide. And i think the reason youre seeing the Law Enforcement officers clustered a bit is theyre clustering in places where that person either is most likely to be or exiting from, and you dont want to just have one or two officers when someones armed to the teeth with that kind of weapon. Yeah, that totally makes sense. Let me ask you something as i think about whats playing outright now. If indeed robert card has stolen a car, it probably happened after these alarms went out and to advice from local Law Enforcement was shelter in place. Its nighttime. Its becoming dark or has already gone dark. You know, if youre inside, you might not notice if somebody has stolen your car. So lets ive heard no reports, and i presume that you havent seen them as well of a report of a stolen car in the area, which means that gives him quite an advantage potentially, right . Well, you know, we had a former agent talk about eric robert rudolf. In fact, that was one of the first times i was on your air, and he he was caught in 2003. Although the weather down south is a little different, look, i think he is right now more in escape mode and or resting mode. But that might not last long. That might last an hour or two. Im going to question that because look at the picture we see there to the rest of our screen, everybody. He does not have camo camouflage gear. He does not have a flackjacket. He does not have some sort of bulletproof vest. He looks normally dressed, and yet look at what hes carrying an akstyle rifle there, automatic weapon. Do you think hes just looking to escape . I mean this is somebody who when i first saw him i thought do you want to do suicide by cop . He very well might. And you can see as my friend jim kavanaugh, Great Legendary Atf supervisor, it does look like he has rounds, magazines, as jim said it could be a soda can, could be something else. He might have a jacket in the vehicle as he went from place to place and throw it in the back. The bottom line is while hes out, he is dangerous. And i think it makes sense how the Command Center is setup. Youre going to have multiple agencies and people who bring different skills to this, hostage negotiators, people who are sharp shooters, other types of individuals, but they have to be on the same communication mode, and they also have to be under some kind of shared joint command because this is going to extend across the distance. Even the fellow in pennsylvania. Like in 2015 the person who escaped from a new york correctional facility, they were found to have stayed in bungalows. O there are a lot of areas and particularly now its only in the low 50s. Its going to get colder later in the week, but right now its in the low 50s. He might have a jacket, he might be laying in place somewhere. Good youre making a good point because the fact is were talking about the state of maine. Again, the southwestern part of maine is where it all went down, but neighboring there new hampshire, you have massachusetts right there to the south, so there are a lot of different Law Enforcement communities involved in this. We are going to check back in with our other reporters in maine as investigators search for a Person Of Interest in this deadly Mass Shooting. Rch for a Person Of Interest in this deadly Mass Shooting we are following the Breaking News of a manhunt under way right now in maine for a suspected mass killer. Police say the suspect is armed and dangerous, and a shelter in place order has been issued for the city of lewiston and also another county in maine. Police have identified 40yearold robert card as a Person Of Interest in the shooting. Police released this picture of card today, widely distributed. Theyve also released these pictures of the attack, and the shooter opened fire just before 7 00 p. M. Eastern at a Bowling Alley and a Bar Grill Restaurant in lewiston. Police sources say 15 to 20 people are dead, and they add at least 50 people have been injured in the shooting and resulting rush to escape the gunfire. Lets go now to my colleague emma barnett on the ground for us in lewiston, maine. Is there any update on the Person Of Interest . Or do they remain focused on the local community as they hunt for him . Reporter alex, there are no updates on that as of this moment. What i can tell you about whats happening behind me. Theres one police car there. There used today be two police cars. I tried to speak to the officer. They werent able to comment at this moment. At some point about 20 minutes a go a series of police cars drove that way. The reason theyre driving that way is the Bowling Alley where this horrific shooting happened is right there. And it has been eerily quiet in this town, as you mention theres a shelter in place. And i drove here from new hampshire, and as youre driving up, it just quieter and quieter. As you got closer to lewiston, some of the streets were block off, about a mile and a half from hospitals. I sue some reporting on nbc how they have guards out there. Its creepy quiet right now. Something i want to stress is as you said theres 15 to 20 people who have been killed, and you cant even imagine the heart break this town is experiencing because oats a town of about 37,000 people. Its a small, small town. I heard earlier on msnbc someone talking about how in this town everyone is going to know someone, and that is horrific. I want to play some sound we got. Its a woman named Julie Waiting to hear the status of her family, they were at the bar, the second location the shooter went to. Take a listen. My exhusband and my son were playing pool. And next thing i know i saw on facebook there was a shooting where they were playing, and then nobody would tell us anything. And my wife, his friends all here waiting and weve heard nothing. They wont tell us if hes alive, if hes in critical condition. They wont tell us anything. Just pray for the families. Pray for these victims. God, things have got to change. We have to start doing better. Reporter it is just absolutely horrific to hear julies story and her plea. And i have no doubt as the sun continues to rise or starts to rise here in maine, were going to hear a lot more stories like that. There is a Reunification Center at auburn middle school, so there will be a lot of families just patiently waiting there with their fingers crossed to get the status of their loved ones. Emma in that sound bar we played from julie, she talked about the Central Maine Medical Center, and its the hospital that received the bulk of those injured. What was the scene like as you were passing that hospital . Reporter that hospital the Central Maine Medical Center is about half a mile up the road just to my left, and the scene was it honestly wasnt that chaotic at the time i was driving in. I was driving in around about 12 30. Remember the shooting at the Bowling Alley happened around 6 30 p. M. This was 12 30 in the morning. There were some people crossing the street, seemed to be coming out of the hospital, but it was not chaotic at that time. Okay. Let me just ask you one final thing, and that is you know you were being dispatched to follow the story when you made the twohour drive to get to lewiston. What was that like for you knowing what was lying ahead and you describe a somewhat eerie Environment Driving through the dark in your car in empty roads. I mean, its got to be hard anticipating what youre going to come across when you get to your destination. Reporter alex, this is my first time covering Breaking News like this, and it was just absolutely horrific. And there has been so much tragedy and heart break and darkness in the world that when i was driving to lewiston, i just couldnt even believe it. It is honestly overwhelming just the amount of death that we have been reporting on this news cycle. Well, im sorry youre going to have to be broken into Breaking News by covering this story. I know youre en route for the political campaigns, but i thank you for being with you are. In the meantime what officials told us about robert card, the Person Of Interest, thats ahead on msnbc. Card, the Person Of Interest, thats ahead on msnbc since 2009. This Playstation 5 sold for only 50 cents. This ipad pro sold for less than 34. And this nintendo switch, sold for less than 20. I got this Kitchenaid Stand Mixer for only 56. I got this bbq smoker for 26 bucks. And shipping is always free. Go to dealdash. Com right now and see how much you can save. Attention hearing loss sufferers do you struggle to hear loved ones . 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Theres no obligation, and youll receive a free Beneficiary Planner just for calling. Were back with more on this Breaking News out of maine for you. The search still on for a suspect in a shooting at Bowling Alley and bar and grill in lewiston, maine. Officials say 15 to 20 people have been killed. Rob, question to you on this because were not hearing a lot of Concrete Information from Law Enforcement. What does that tell you about the nature of the manhunt and the investigation right now . Is it that they do not know much, or is this the kind of thing they keep things and play things close to the vest . I think its a little bit of a combination of both. I think theyre just overwhelmed. They have two huge crime scenes, probably a third, and theyre just looking for whatever they can find to get his location. I think theyre just so overwhelmed. I still dont even know if they know whos actually going to be in charge, if its going to be state police. It was in a town and then slipped out to the county. By now it could be involving state police, and they have more assets. So i think by morning, by 7 00, 8 00, 9 00 in the morning youre going to have a whole bunch more resources. Theyre going to have a Command Center. Whatever leads that they have, theyre going to start putting resources to it. So i think theyre just overwhelmed, and i think people are coming in trying to get the information that they know and then get them to where they can do the most good. So i think theyre just overwhelmed right now. Yeah, no, its understandable. Under the cloak of night for this Person Of Interest slash likely presumable suspect, how much does this give him an advantage to getting away . The fact that maybe they dont have everybody on scene that they want. It is night. It is a densely forested, wooded area. You know, he could be miles away by the time dawn breaks. Absolutely, he could. And they dont have the resources they need right now. Tomorrow night if he is still out there will be a different story because youre going to have the federal and state police bringing everything to bear that they have, so youre going to have the helicopters. Youre going to have the thermal imagery, dogs and all these other things. Right now they dont have them. But, you know, a perimeter in any situation i think is a false sense of its like living in a gated community thinking no ones going to get in. You saw in pennsylvania when they really had a smaller area, and they tried to put Police Officers within Line Eyesight that they had a perimeter, and then they found tunnels that went through that is an interesting point and i was covering that case and you make that point the fact it was a densely wooded area, it was very easy, they thought they were close, and yet he did slip through fingers until they actually did catch him. Were going to have a few more questions for you in just a few minutes. 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