In georgia today. More on that in a moment. But tonight, there is a new report about arguably the person closest to donald trump and the months following the 2020 election, leading up to january 6th. His last chief of staff, mark meadows. Abc news is now reporting that Special Counsel jack smith has granted mark meadows immunity for his under oath testimony. Sources familiar with that matter tell abc news that mark meadows has spoken to jack smiths team three times this year, including to the federal grand jury. Abc news reports, quote, meadows informed smiths team that he repeatedly told trump in the weeks after the 2020 president ial election that the allegations of significant voter fraud commit to them were baseless. Meadows also told the federal investigators trump was being, quote, dishonest with the public when he first claimed to have won the election only hours after polls closed on november 3rd, 2020, before a final result for. And obviously he didnt, when a source quoted meadows as telling smiths team in hindsight. Jack smiths team was keenly interested in election related conversations mark meadows had with donald trump, according to abc news. Conversations that could show donald trump knew he lost the election, while publicly spreading lies about voter fraud. Abc news reports that after the Supreme Court denied his final court challenge, quote, trump told meadows something to the effect of, then that the end, or, so thats it, meadows recalled to investigators, according to sources. Nbc news has not confirmed this reporting. Mark meadows attorney issued a statement tonight saying, quote, i told abc that their story was largely an accurate. People will have to judge for themselves the decision to run it anyway. And more cameras are falling and the Georgia Election case, where Fulton County district when it found it while it secured her fourth guilty plea that could prove very significant given her direct ties to Rudy Giuliani and donald trump. Jenna ellis the came the third this week who pushed Donald Trumps false election lies to plead guilty in as part of a deal with prosecutors for testimony against other codefendants, including donald trump. Jenna ellis cried during her Court Appearance at Fulton County, but first she pleaded guilty. Is it your decision to waive these rights because you are in fact guilty . It is. How do you plead to Aiding And Abetting, false statements and writings, and under accusation . Guilty. Jenna ellis pled guilty to a felony count for spreading false claims about voter fraud in the 2020 election. Something she did as part of a lot donald trump called his Elite Strikeforce with Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell. She worked closely alongside Rudy Giuliani to persuade legislators and States Joe Biden won, including georgia, pennsylvania, and arizona that there was significant voter fraud and to appoint fake electors to contest the election in congress. She also wrote to memories for donald trump that outlined the strategy for how former Vice President mike pence could disrupt congresss certification of the election, using the fake electors, stating, according to the indictment, quote, the Vice President should therefore not open any of the votes from six states, including georgia, that roughly characterized as Heaven Electoral Delegates in dispute. Today, jenna ellis did something unusual in trump world, through tears. She expressed remorse and took responsibility for having sprayed Donald Trumps lies in court. And attempting to raise challenges to the election in several states, including georgia, i failed to do my due diligence. I believe in and i value election integrity. If i knew, that what you, know i would have declined to represent donald trump in these post election challenges. I look back on this whole experience with deep remorse. I have taken responsibility already before the colorado borough, who censorate me, and i now take responsibility before this court and apologized for the people of georgia. Leading off our discussion tonight, Amy Lee Copeland a criminal defense attorney and former georgia peripheral, prosecutor barbara mcquade, former u. S. Attorney and a Law Professor at the university of michigan law school. She is cohost of the hashtag sisters in law podcast. And neal katyal, former acting solicitor general of the United States, and a professor at georgetown law. He is host of the Podcast Courtside with neal katyal. Yall, i am so glad to talk to all three of you tonight, neal, im instructed with you. What would it mean if mark meadows received immunity from jack smith . It would mean a lot. First of all, just to set the stage, there is two different January 6th Prosecutions. One in the states, georgia, and one at the federal level, with the state, thats the one where jenna ellis has now fled to the cooperator with Sidney Powell and Kenneth Chesebro, but the federal, mark meadows, for chief of staff to donald trump, we has according to abc, gone to a grand jury and testified under some sort of minted Immunity Deal. We might want to take this a little bit with a grain of salt salt, because it is, it butler for mcmanus is disputing and for not notably explaining what hes disputing in the recording. Hes just disputing. It and i think atlanta region that mark meadows probably told a grand jury something significant for the prosecution. Because its really obvious that donald trump lost the election. We think its pretty obvious that he, himself, knew so. Trump wasnt, i think, trying to claim hes insane or Something Like that, which is i think what youd need to pay to see otherwise. And meadows had a Front Row Seat to all of this. And you dont give an Immunity Deal to someone as high up as meters on a whim. So that tells me that mark meadows has a bit more dirt on donald trump that he chose to shear in his book, which it looks like, according to the abc story, hes now contradicting what he, himself, wrote in his book. I think the bottom line is, we dont know what the reach of this Immunity Arrangement is, how much whether meadows has really pledged. But even if he hasnt flipped, yet he might will flip in the future because meadows is a defendant who knows donald trump well, and you know the situation reversed, and you know trump, well trump would flip on him and a second if he. Could let me follow up with you, one real quick. Is it just about Donald Trumps State Of Mind . Is that the import of what were learning here, if the ap recording is true . Its at least part of it. Because one of trumps big defenses of both January 6th Prosecutions is, hey, i reasonably thought i won the election, and all of these actions were calculated to try to protect democracy. You and i know how likely that is as a plausible explanation, its not. But in criminal law, there is something called youve got the eagles that of mind. For meadows to say this, if that abc reporting is, obliterate Donald Trumps State Of Mind event. And it could also go further. It may just go to what we call the criminal acts that donald trump undertook. So meadows was in the room. Did he see trump ordering various things, including seizing voting machines, or all the other nonsense . But meadows is in the room, hes obviously the most important, and i think the prosecutors are right to bring him in before the grand jury and try to get what he knows. So, amy lee, what couldve potential meadows Immunity Deal in the federal case mean for his indictment in the georgia case . Possibly not much, jonathan. Fani willis has made a real point of saying that she hasnt been coordinating with jack smith. That, in fact, if she were to meet with jack smith he would probably pronounce her name wrong, which is kind of the litmus test. So if Meadows Crosses to an out and out communicator, maybe jack smith picks up the phone and see is treat him right in the state case. But it may not have any real effect on how that case continues to go for. He does have an argument, in his appeal on that removal to Federal Court coming up on december 15th. I expect pretty fast action on that, and that might make him make some decisions in the state case, if that doesnt pan out the way hed like to. Decisions and the state case, maybe like that same decisions that jenna ellis and Kenneth Chesebro and, who is the kraken lady . Sidney powell that kind of decision. Those kinds of decisions, indigenous and. Just clarifying and my own mind. Barbara, i want you to listen to something Cassidy Hutchinson said about mark meadows tonight. Mark was sort of all over the board in some ways. He would privately vent to me sometimes that the election, that we had lost the election, or hit privately event to me that trump had said we had lost the election. Mark also was a key player in working in characters like Sydney Powell and like jenna ellis. He would sometimes acknowledge what ive read in the abc report. So then, barb, does meadows pose a credibility issue, Credibility Problem for prosecutors . Yes, and that is often the case with cooperators. But prosecutors are accustomed to dealing with that. They really want to do two things. First is to satisfy themselves that the witness is telling the truth, cant sponsor untruthful testimony. Thats a threshold issue. Once theyre satisfied, that second test is to persuade the jury there telling the truth. The way they do that is typically not to rely solely on the wards out of a mouth of a witness, because they know hes susceptible to crossexamination with prior inconsistent statements and receiving a benefit, and other things. So well try to do is cooperate the testimony. To find documents, records, and the testimony of other witnesses. So perhaps Cassidy Hutchinson or Somebody Else who controlled about the times they were consistent to help the jury understand what the true facts are. And so, he wont stand alone. But as neil said, because he was so close to donald trump, i think he can provide some real color here at that can be valuable. Sometimes the person connect the dots, sometimes that person just serves as a narrator to help explain what all these records mean. But this year openly wont let him stand alone and ask the jury to believe him without corroborating evidence and testimony. Neal, lets talk about jenna ellis. She worked closely with Rudy Giuliani on the statelevel efforts, which he has also direct contact with trump. How important is her testimony . I think its quite important. Jenna ellis was smiling and her mugshot a while ago, but she certainly not smiling anymore. And for good reason. This agreement, plea of guilty today, but quarrels her to basically testify against Rudy Giuliani for Aiding And Abetting election crimes. And, i suspect, it will generate evidence against donald trump, because mark meadows like, jenna ellis was often in the room when it happened with donald trump, and she had direct dealings with him. Trump cant distance himself, as i never hired jenna ellis, thats going nowhere, it just as when he tried it for Sidney Powell. And jonathan, the most significant thing for me is i think were just Getting Started with these four defendants have flipped. I think its going to look like at Gymnastics Team all of the flippant were going to see in the coming months. All of these different attorneys involved, decided to play out. Even though they dont flip the law from south, and i certainly understand that legal system to know its not worth taking a chance at trial, and i think others will follow. A mainly, jenna ellis blamed other lawyers for the election lies. Listen to this. I rely on others, including lawrence with many more years of experience with high to provide me with true information, especially since might roll involved speaking to the media and legislators and various states. What i did not do, but should have done, was to michelin affects the other lawyers alleged to be true or in fact true. Amy lee, what is Rudy Giulianis defense team going to make of that . Hes going to say, like neal say, this is an opportunistic play for her. Shes trying to save her part license, trying to get her own self out of a ditch. But you know, one of the things i think its really interesting about her particular plea is that she wasnt even charged with the indictment she pleaded guilty to. Her accusation presents a combination of count three and four, which four against Rudy Giuliani and a Trump Campaign lawyer. And when she admitted to Aiding And Abetting the full statement, she admitted to the velocity of pretty important statements thea bec under age people vote pay vot them w help them with hearings. She agreedr anybody else who doesnt have a deal. So, barb, fani willis is winnowing down from prosecuting 19 defendants turn a 15 and has three trump lawyer is cooperating. How significant is this and getting others to flip to get to that top tier defendants . She really is following the prosecutors playbook here which is to charge the full scope of criminal activity, everyone involved, and then chip away at guilty pleas one and then the other. So often what you see is, one defendant played guilty, for example scott paul, and he was involved in that scheme in Coffee County that related to tampering with election equipment. Perhaps that is what induces Sydney Powell to plead guilty, because she was involved in that scheme. Now she knew, in addition to whatever evidence fani willis, she also had the cooperation of this witness. After all, thats what tips the scale for Kenneth Chesebro. Maybe thats what tipped the scales for jenna ellis. So you see, one by one, this happens. And every defendant has to be thinking, right, now while, not only is there if the evidence that wasnt sufficient for a grand jury to find probable cause now there are four others who are gonna be testifying against me. And so it really changes the calculus, i think, for each defendant. So one by one, shes working her way up the chain. Statistically, Something Like 95 of defendants Plguase Alwayt those statistics, but you would expect, in this case, by the time it gets winnowed down, it would be a very small group of defendants who actually go to trial. So neal, to put a point on all this, is the r. I. C. O. Case working exactly as intended . It is. Barbara is exactly right in my judgment. Use of conspiracy doctrine, in cases such as this, and its take spoke. You start flipping them, other people follow, thats exactly what fani willis is known for doing in other r. I. C. O. Cases chase brought, and shes performing marvelously so far. And if your donald trump or Rudy Giuliani or any of these people, i think you are shivering. This is very scary stuff. Neal katyal, barbara mcquade, Amy Lee Copeland, pink you very much for coming to the last word. And coming, Up Donald Trump dot to sit the new york courtroom today and listen to his former lawyer and fixer Michael Cohen accused him of lying about his wealth. 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Ath, its smarter, healthier pet food. Get 50 off your first box at thefarmersdog. Com realfood to answer the committees questions truthfully. And to offer the American People what i know about president trump. It was my experience and mr. Trump inflated his total assets when it served his purpose. Such as trying to be listed amongst the wealthiest people in forbes. And deflating his assets to produce his real estate taxes. Elections have consequences, just ask donald trump. Just days after Michael Cohen made those comments to the House Oversight committee in february 2019, new York Attorney general Letitia James began investigating donald trump and his business. Today, Michael Cohen took a stand in a Manhattan Courtroom as a key witness against donald trump in the Civil Fraud Trial brought by Attorney General james. This is the first time trump and cohen have faced each other in five years, regarding Michael Cohens testimony, that New York Times reports, quote, i was taskmaster trump to increase the total assets based upon of numbers that he arbitrarily elected, mr. Cohen testified, saying that it was his responsibility to increase those assets in order to achieve the number. Mr. Trump, he said, quote meet with mr. Cohen and another lieutenant and direct them to reverse engineer the statements to reach his desire net worth, and returned to him once they did. The accusation prompted a full body scoff from mr. Trump, who spent much of the testimony alternately fiddling with his phone and crossing his arms. Mr. Trumps skill was soon replaced by a blank expression as he frequently consulted with his lawyers. Joining us now, adam klasfeld, senior Legal Correspondent for that messenger, he was in the courtroom for todays proceedings. Tim obrien, Senior Executive editor for Bloomberg Opinion and author of trump nation, host of the bloomberg podcast and an msnbc political analyst. Thank you both for being here, adam, before we get into cohens testimony today, tell us more about his, trumps demeanor in court. You are in the room with them. I gather things were pretty chilly between the two . That would be an accurate way of putting. It as you mentioned, jonathan, the first thing to really remember about todays testimony is that its five years in the making. These guys have not been in a room together for half a decade. And so a lot of us were wondering, how are they going to react . Are they going to locked eyes when theyre into the courtroom . And it was a very chilly reception. Michael cohen and her the court room and went to that witness stand, no eye contact, and it was basically all business. And the first major piece of testimony was the one you just explain to viewers. Basically its the crux of the a. G. s case, saying the former president inflated his assets when to suit his Business Purposes. And more importantly, he basically asked cohen and Allen Weisselberg the former cfo, to reverse engineer the Financial Statements to make his net worth aspirations and to reach that inflicted number, as the Attorney General says, for Business Purposes to banks and insurers. So that was the core of the testimony. And it was very chilly at the outset, and when that line landed, there was the reaction you read outgrown e or. And tim, when it comes to people who could testify against trump, there are many who have arent many who have as much dirt on him as Michael Cohen. Allen weisselberg is the keeper of the financial skeletons, the people who met decisions inside for Trump Organization with Donald Trumps blessing or people like Allen Weisselberg, jeff mcconney, jason greenblatt. Michael cohen was a fixer and an enforcer. He had some knowledge of real estate, so i think trump would consult him about what kind of devices they had used to inflate his assets. So hes a material witness. I think the lesson, though, of Michael Cohen is that hes the latest in a parade of people have turned on donald trump and donald trump has spent decades in competing one white loyalty among the people who surround him. He had corrupt them, or they are easily corruptible, and now hes landed in a series of courtrooms we are people who have advised him are now turning on him. Michael cohen was on Display Doing so today. But its also happening in a georgia case with jenna ellis and Sidney Powell, and i think that trump is getting progressively put in a corner by this dynamic. And thats what you see him huffing and puffing because all hes lift really to do at this point, in a courtroom, is try to court Public Opinion louder than the rule of law, because this particular case was four told weeks ago when judge engoron said, i essentially think that youre guilty, youre going to lose your business license, is your career in new york is going to be over. So now all were waiting on what the magnitude of the penalty is going to be. And Michael Cohen is just part of the evidence that shows how trump and the Trump Organization worked on these matters. I think the other key thing, jonathan, donald trump was not an innocent bystander. He was orchestrating. And thats a Common Thread in all these cases. Hes the mastermind of the things hes being prosecuted for. Hes not simply taking advice. Tim obrien, adam klasfeld, think you both very coming back toward. Coming, up the chaos hasnt stopped for the chaos caucus. The House Of Representatives has not been with a speaker for three weeks, and they dont seem any closer to figuring this out. Democratic Congressman Maxwell Frost will join us next. When moderate to Severe Ulcerative Colitis takes you off course. Put it in check with rinvoq, a oncedaily pill. When i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid Symptom Relief and helped Leave Bathroom urgency behind. Check. When uc tried to slow me down. I got lasting, steroidfree remission with rinvoq. Check. And when uc caused Damage Rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. Check. Rapid Symptom Relief. Lasting steroidfree remission. And the chance to visibly repair the colon lining. Check, check, and check. Rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. Serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. 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And weve gone through a battle of an election with nine people, 11, now were going to go to vote and get to 217. 21 days ago, republicans voted to remove Kevin Mccarthy from his position as speaker. And as of ten pm tonight, republicans have a new Speaker Designate, maybe. Louisiana congressman mike johnson bait out for other candidates and is the speaker nominee for now. Hes the second Speaker Designate today, after republican whip tom emmer dropped out. Amaras nomination lasted for a whole hours, until donald trump decided to take a break from attacking that judicial system, to attack amar on social media. Voting for a globalist right now like tom emmer would be a tragic mistake politico reports, quote, but Tuesday Afternoon Trump called one person close to him with that message. Hes done, its over, i killed him. Just minutes later, amr officially dropped out of the race. The house could vote again on a speaker as early as noon tomorrow. Joining us now, democratic Congressman Maxwell Frost of florida, hes a member of the House Oversight committee. Congressman frost, great to see you. Congressman Dana Phillips push to this today. Quote, the dysfunction in the house is at national and Global Security issue. It would sit out the speaker vote if tom emmer will fund our government at negotiated, levels bring ukraine and israel aid bills to the floor, and commit to rule changes to make Congress Work for the people. It sounds very champion. But congressman tom emmer is no longer in the running, of course, for as you personally having any of those conversations with other democrats to help out republicans under those conditions . Several of us have had many of these different conversations over the last three weeks, 21 days. And we are im at is, if were going to come to a partisan deal, which by the way we want to do, we want to work with republicans that come up with a bipartisan deal to have shirt governance, to ensure that a majority of both caucuses is behind something and it can happen in this congress. We want this to happen and with extended the olive branch. In fact, democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries wrote an update about it. And republicans have say, time after time, they have no interest in working with democrats. So when i hear people say, what about the democrats . When are they going to step up . Everyone needs to, with six under the olive branch. We have said it in almost every interview and republicans have gone on national tv and said that it wants our help. And thats what happens when they dont take our help. Exactly what were seeing. And what youre seeing, literally right now next to you, that is congressman mike johnson being applauded by his republican colleagues, well see how all that goes tomorrow when they vote at noon. But congressman frost, do you expect to see a speaker in the house tomorrow . Will he be able to get 217 votes . You, know i know as much as he does. Absolutely nothing. And look, its funny, its depressing, its all these things at the same time. But the fact of the matter is, we have no idea. We can get, as we can think about. It we can control make an educated hypothesis. No one knows whats going to happen. But ill tell, you more likely that, not what happened in the past to the past five other nominees, or four nominees they, had could possibly happen to this. What it might not even make it to the floor. If he does, he might. Liz and ill tell you, at this point it seems like there is nobody in that republican conference that can actually gain the amount of votes it becomes bigger. Because of that. At this point, it seems like its easier for four of their members to come and vote for Hakeem Jeffries than for them to get their own votes together on the same page. Im still wondering, at what point are they just going to say, hey, speaker pro tem mchenry, lets just hand you the gavel. Youre the guy in the job. And ill ask you something about something the New York Times columnist wrote about young voters and the preferences. That gap and the number of millennials who identify as democrats rather than republicans is huge, with more than twice as many self identified democrats as republicans. At this point, it seems like its easier for four of their members to come and vote for Hakeem Jeffries than for them to get their own votes together on the same page. Im still wondering, at what point are they just going to say, hey, speaker pro tem mchenry, lets just hand you the gavel. Youre the guy in the job. And ill ask you something about something the New York Times columnist wrote about young voters and the preferences. That gap and the number of millennials who identify as democrats rather than republicans is huge, with more than twice as many self identified democrats as republicans. That next cohort on the roster, gen z, is even more liberal and democratic that millennials and shows no indication of become substantially more conservative as it ages. Does this surprise you, congressman frost, that gen z is rejecting the Republican Party . Absolutely not. And its directly connected to a few things. One, this is one of the most progressive generations in the history of our country. But, two, the Republican Party has been taken hostage by the farright extreme maga republicans who are dipping into focus them at that dipping into fascism at that National Level but also across the entire country. Jonathan, it turns out that young people dont want fascism. They want their rights, they want the right to bodily autonomy, that right to vote, that right to freedom of expression, and that right to live in this country without being gunned down due to senseless gun violence. This thing that separates gen z from other generations is with been immersed in technology our entire lives, since birth. What that does is create a generation that has a heightened degree of awareness of whats going on around the entire world and this country. And because of, that we have high standards for the things which like now and in the future. And we realize that democrats are the ones most closely aligned with the standards. And as long as we continue to fight to defeat the current climate crisis, and the fight for gun violence, and for bodily autonomy we can count on young people, but we cant take it for granted, not at all. A right to freedom. Congressman maxwell frost, thank you. Coming up, Secretary Of State Antony Blinken was at the enough nations today with the whole world still on edge of the conflict between israel and hamas. Well have a report from israel, thats next. Ext. Im asking about prevnar 20® because theres a chance Pneumococcal Pneumonia could put me in the hospital. If youre 19 or older, with certain chronic conditions like copd, asthma, diabetes, or Heart Disease or are 65 or older, you may be at increased risk for Pneumococcal Pneumonia. Prevnar 20® is approved in adults to help prevent infections from 20 strains of the bacteria that cause Pneumococcal Pneumonia. In just one dose. Dont get prevnar 20® if youve had a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or its ingredients. Adults with weakened Immune Systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. The most common side effects were pain and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, fatigue, headache, and joint pain. I want to be able to keep my plans. 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Gamechanger for my patients i dont ever want to go back to wearing a 4xl shirt or not being able to climb up stairs without taking a break. So im committed to golo for life. Today, at the United Nations, Secretary Of State Anthony Blinken warned that the United States would take action an a iranianbacked militants if american troops continue to be targeted in the middle east. The United States does not seek conflict with iran. We do not want this war to widen. But, if iran or its proxies attack u. S. Personnel anywhere, make no mistake. We will defend our people, we will defend our security, swiftly and decisively. Blinkens warning comes after the pentagon said two dozen United States military personnel or entered in drawing attacks last week in iraq and syria by groups supported by iran. And against the backdrop of the current confrontation between iranbacked hamas in gaza and hezbollah in lebanon with israel, there is increasing violence in gaza tonight. Gaza Health Officials at more than 700 people were killed in air strikes overnight. Nbc news cannot independently verify that number. But if accurate, this marks the deadliest day since the war began. And one of the two hostages released yesterday by hamas is speaking out today, through her daughter, about her abduction during the october 7 attack, saying she went through hell. More than 200 hostages are still believed to be held by hamas, and other possible militant groups and gaza. Despite growing calls at the United Nations today for a ceasefire, the Biden Administration is still unwilling to back that position. Here is white house official john kirby earlier. There is no scenario to avoid, to avert a war now . That was my point for you. There is no other scenario . There is already combat between israel and hamas. If what youre saying, to avert a ground incursion, thats a question for the Israeli Defense forces. They get to make the decisions about what operations there are going to conduct or not. We dont believe a ceasefire right now we believe a ceasefire right now is only going to benefit hamas. Nbc news Correspondent Ellison Barber is in tel aviv tonight, with more reporting on the dire situation in gaza. [screaming] if the walls of this Gaza Hospital could talk, theyd tell the story of the perpetual hell of children crying out in agony, bloody, fighting for their lives after israeli airstrikes. 40 of all of the wounded are children. He has a blast defect in his back. They would tell you how the hospital has no room. How medical teams have been forced to treat patients in the hallway. The walls of the hospital cannot speak, but the dedicated doctors working there can. My name is dr. Over the last 24 hours, we have received 600 dead and three times the number of wounded. This is putting even more pressure on the system thats falling apart. We are running out of everything from simple dressings to complex burns dressings. We have over 150 patients ventilated in intensive care areas. And fuel is becoming an issue. We were having more and more cuts. We know one of the major hospitals in northern gaza, the fuel there has run out and theyre now running much smaller generator just for the operating. Room any minute now, this will happen to our hospital to as the fuel runs out here. Israel has increased its Aerial Bombardments on the gaza strip. The idf says they have struck more than 300 hamas targets in the last 24 hours. But what these doctors witnessed every day is the massive impact those strikes are having on palestinian civilians. This war is different, in terms of the type of war thats used, it has a much bigger incendiary component to it. The walls of the hospital cannot speak. But they carry the echoes of the most brutal, often unspeakable moments of war. If the world listens. At least six hospitals in Gaza Have Run Out of fuel, according to the world health organization. They are pleading for a ceasefire before the death toll there climbs even higher. Jonathan . Ellison barber, thank you. Joining us now from tel aviv is ronen bergman, of the New York Times. Hes the author of, rise and kill first, the secret history of israels targeted assassinations. Does officials anticipated at least as far of the war. What is the latest your hearing tonight . The latest, and the dilemma is really decisionmakers, both the military defense establishment, and mostly the government are going through is whether to go for that planned Ground Invasion into gaza. That is the only way they can achieve their goal, to dismantle that Military Infrastructure and political infrastructure of hamas. Now, today, they added another goal. To kill the two leaders of hamas in gaza. Or maybe listen to the calls from the world, and dont go to the Ground Offensive. It seems that the israeli Prime Minister, and some of his followers on social media, famous journalists, commentators, is expressing hesitance whether to go to the Ground Offensive. Now i think, unlike his image, it is not a trigger happy politician. And he knows that all Prime Minister is that were commanding the country during wartime in israel since the 70s all lost their job because of the war. So he will be fearing for his career which will be reestablished after this disaster. I think hes very hesitant. On the author hand, Mass Military Station at the border, promised given by the israeli leadership that they will go in, following the massacre, the atrocities, and i think this is really the moment now when theyre going to make a call whether to do it or not. Ronen, im wondering, is the behind the scenes pressure from washington working to keep israel from starting the Ground Invasion . It seems that washington changed its tone since the Secretary Of State blinken and President Biden visited. They gave a long leash to the israelis to go to a Ground Offensive without expressing, at least overtly, any objection. We have witnessed in the last few days, my colleagues have reported, requests from washington to delay the offensive and criticism from washington, the secretary of defense called on israeli Minister Of Defense and saying, maybe your plans are not ripe enough, you dont know your strategy, you dont know whats after the strategy. So those have an impact. There are people in the idf who think maybe we should wait. On the other hand, people say no. The timeline of any its running out. We saw the reports from gaza, everyone understands, it wont be long until the international community, maybe with the consent of that you u. S. Will tell israel to stop. And i think is really decisionmakers or quick afraid they have a short window on the other, hand the hostages earthier. The u. S. Is trying to barter a deal through qatar to do that, maybe at the end of this week. You anticipate. I was going to ask you, how are the hostages playing and decisions by israel to or not to start its Ground Invasion . It seems that hamas is playing very smart cards here. Releasing a few hostages every day. And just by releasing them, its not a deal but israel is playing along because hamas has the upperhand. Every hostage has been released to israel, creating sympathy towards the hostages. You can see the 85yearold lipschitz. So it creates sympathy, people think, maybe if we wait a few more days, maybe we wait a little bit more, that will release more. And i think, again, this is the time i would say, a confrontation inside israeli leadership, with Deep Mistrust between the Prime Minister and some ministers and that military, accusing each other of a disaster changing israeli history forever. And the hostages, at least from pressure from the u. S. Appears to take care of american citizens, french, german, whatever. It plays but it will run out of pressure soon because of this decision that needs to be taken, to go to the Ground Offensive. Ronen bergman as always, thank you very much for coming to the last word. Well be right back. Now whats going around is 12hour cough relief. And the giggles. The family that takes delsym together, feels better together. Can we get real clear about life with psoriasis . Yeah, im ready. Is your treatment leaving you with uncontrolled symptoms . Like the coveritups and brushitoffs . Enough with good enoughs. Dont stay hiding or hurting. 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Tonight, new reporting from abc news about mark meadows and his deal with the Special Counsel, as his former boss was back at Manhattan Court hearing testimony from his former accent. While in atlanta, another one of his former attorneys pled guilty. Then, that latest on the israelhamas war. The idf ramping Up Airstrikes on hamas. And three whole weeks without a speaker of the house. The new plan to reinstate mccarthy with a new assistant speaker. We get into all the chaos at the capitol as the 11th hour gets underway on this tuesday night. Good evening, once again, im Stephanie Ruhle live at Msnbc Headquarters at 30 rockefeller center. We begin this evening broadcast with yet another possible legal