This afternoon we have a Bombshell New report from abc news the trumps former Chief Of Staff, mark meadows, has been granted immunity in special counsel jack smiths federal interference case. Mr. Meadows has reportedly told smiths team that he long believed that trump was being dishonest about his claim that he won the election. Which is certainly something new. Now that report has not been confirmed by nbc news, and Meadows Lawyer is denying it, so we will have a lot more on that later in this hour. But we start with the absolute debacle unfolding among republicans in the house of representatives, which is entering its fourth week. Fourth week, without a speaker of the house. Right, now republicans are holding a vote Behind Closed Doors to choose their fourth nominee for speaker in less than two weeks. This morning, after five rounds of voting Behind Closed Doors, the party nominated its third speaker candidate, congressman tom emmer. And then, just four hours and ten minutes later, tom emmer dropped out of the race. Why . Heres a hint. Right after republicans took that vote, donald trump denounced tom emmer on his social media site calling the congressman a globalist rhino. One source said that trumps rejection had made a successful floor vote impossible for mr. Amr. And so republicans are right back to where they started now one of the reasons hard right republicans opposed tom emmers because he voted to certify the 2020 election. Here is congresswoman brown Marjorie Taylor greene on that very issue, today. How much did emirates vote to certify the 2020 election go against . It was quite a big thing for me. I couldnt support a speaker of the house who admitting joe biden won the 2020 election is now heresy in the gop. After elmer dropped out, republicans announced a new list of candidates and all of them voted against certifying the 2020 election. To be clear here, its not that tom emmer has been a vocal opponent of the big lie. After the election, emmert was actually one of the republicans who signed on to a legal brief asking the Supreme Court to step in and overturn trumps loss. But apparently, that is not enough for republican hardliners. So still in this apparently never ending republican race for speaker, as of this hour, Florida CongressmanByron Donalds, a trump supporter and freshman member who is not yet served a full term in congress. Chuck fleischmann who called trumps federal indictment of relentless effort to undermine and destroy trump by any means and when it shows the weaponization of the federal government, Congressman Myrick Greene who called being transgender a disease, and was nominated by donald trump to be secretary who had to withdraw over his history of transphobia, congressman roger williams, investigated for adding a car route to a bill that wouldve benefited the Car Dealerships he owns. Louisiana congressman mike johnson, the New York Times dudes when republican members of congress trying to justify their votes against certifying the election, about three quarters of them relied on the arguments of a low profile louisiana congressman representative, you guessed it, mike johnston, for the times calls the most important architect of the Electoral College objections. So thats what theyve got right now. And if that is all, and not bonkers enough for you, nbc news is reporting that Kevin Mccarthy its floating an idea to have the republican conference reinstalled Kevin Mccarthy as speaker, with farright congressman jim jordan as his assistant speaker. Because why have one guy who just lost when you could have to . So yes, it is a debacle down there in the Lower Chamber which seems to have led some republicans to revive one of the worst ideas in congressional history. If we go to the floor, you know what im doing . Ill be nominating donald j trump. I can like the idea of donald j trump. Hes a lead of our party. Ive said that from the beginning. I continue to say it. Joining me now at least 11, New York TimesPolitical Correspondent and charlie sykes, founder and editor at large at the bulwark. Lisa, when we were writing the names of people who were still in the running, there was a concern on the part of all of us that they would be gone before we even got to air. Thats how quickly this is moving. What does the churn suggests to you . The turn suggests the party in chaos. A leaderless, directionless party, flailing around trying to fulfill one of the most basic functions of governance. And really the house in many ways in our Current System doesnt even have that much power. Yes, they can keep the government from Shutting Down, which is a really big deal and a thing that were all gonna have to deal with sooner than i think everybody would like in november, but its controlled by democrats, the white house is controlled by democrats, are not putting out a broad conservative agenda thats going to be passed into law. Besides the budgetary function, a largely symbolic post in many ways, and theyre failing at the symbolism. I think what it suggests is a party that is in complete disarray right now. Charlie, we have a kinetic situation down in the house, they are voting right now and not on the floor, theyre voting amongst themselves to determine who gets to be the next nominee for however long mike johnson, apparently, if im right, has the most votes, with 85 votes. Byron donalds is second. Byron donalds, Florida Congressman, big trump supporter, its not served a whole term in congress yet. Mike johnson, who the times refers to is the most important architect of the resistance to electoral certification, Electoral College certification in the house. What do you make of these two, shall we call them, frontrunners of the moment . Charlie . We are deep into this Doom Loop Of Crazy and absurdity. The fact that we are now down to plan e or plan f, were talking about the batch been creatures like this, is an indication of what lisa just mentioned. Its in complete disarray, complete chaos. There is no idea right now that is too crazy to be vaguely plausible, because they basically burned through all of the non crazy options, including some of the crazy crazy options. So the whole notion of a unity ticket between Kevin Mccarthy and jim jordan, and jim jordan would be what, the assistant to the speaker, the assistant speaker, a job that does not actually exist. It shows how desperate they are to come up with something. The fact that we are now in the fourth week of doing this is an indication that there may not be any solution. There are at least eight members of what called the crazed flavoring jackal caucus, who are not gonna support any sort of normal speaker, and there are maybe a 20 normal moderate Establishment Republicans who are not going to allow a legislative terrorist. So there is no solution to get to 217 votes. Why they are going through this exercise of nominating somebody, knowing that they may be dropping out after four hours, is an indication, and by the way, obviously, hanging over all this, is the Apex Predator of the gop, donald trump, who did flex his muscles. He does not have enough clout to elect one of his, his maga acolytes to be the speaker, like jim jordan, but, as he reminded us today, he can destroy any political career, and he is demanding absolute loyalty and absolute litmus test of belief in the big lie, support for his efforts to overturn the election, if you want to have even the slightest chance of having a political future in this particular house. Its that crazy. Lisa, you have an Essential Reading in the times today about the sway of trump within the gop. Ill be an excerpt. Trumps commanding position has turned republicans into a party of one demanding absolute loyalty to trump in his personal feuds and pet causes, such as his putt false claims of the 20 to 2020 election was stolen. Thats not the litmus test, it appears, for those who wish to be speaker. I believe, again, and when so many candidates, but everybody on deck right now, the latest vote count is johnson, mike johnson 85, Byron Donalds 32, congressman greener 23, Congressman Williams at 21, Congressman Fleischmann it ten, other, 31, present, too. The fact that other gets almost as much as the second runnerup tells you everything you need to know about the indecision here. But i do wonder, given this sort of existing litmus test of election denialism, does that signal that nobodys gonna get through this process that isnt an avid supporter of donald trump . It seems hard, because as charlie pointed out, trump can kick people out but he cant get anyone in. Part of what is so striking to me about all of this is that these are some deep political cuts. These people are not household names. I would be very surprised if many of our viewers right now are deeply familiar with amara, or most who lost. And hes the majority whip. The most wellknown. So with trump, the chaos being sort of the point of it, which is part of the trump brand, people know who trump is, they love, him the hate, and they have feelings about, him or they like that brand of politics where they really do not like that brand of politics. This just feels like some people that most of america has never heard of kind of tarnishing the entire party with this brand of chaos and disorganization. And that concern is certainly something i have been hearing from a lot of republican strategists and pollsters and people like that over the past couple of weeks as this is been going on. Most of them believe that perhaps, by the time the rolls around, a year and a half from now or so, this will be forgotten. But it is setting up exactly the contrast that Many Democrats want which is, you have biden out there, dealing with a really with war. Yes, dealing with war. With multiple wars. And then you have the republicans kind of going back and forth, a bunch of people that most people have never heard of, fighting about a position that most of america doesnt really understand what it does or doesnt to, and so its exactly the contrast the democrats want right now, and you just have to back that happen. You talk about the moderates here, charlie. What continues to confound me is why moderates, who understand what is happening to their own party, the fact that the house has been leaderless, speakerless, going into the fourth week now. Why there are not entries to democrats . Why dont moderates take the baton away from and im gonna Say Moderates in quotes here. Youre right. What we think of moderates is not what they. Are the people who are not actively trump ad acolytes, why do they not take the baton away from the maga caucus and try to make a deal with democrats . And what point do they break glass on that . Thats a very interesting point. To your point, though, we are not all actually moderates, and thats one of the reasons theyve been reluctant to do that so far because that apparently goes without, saying Shutting Down the federal government, paralyzing the congress at a time of international crisis, apparently is not as bad as actually cutting a deal with democrats, because i think they understand this would, be in this modern political, modern Republican Party, this would be political suicide, but at a certain point, when you have gone through all of the other options, this may be out there, because its clearly doable. We can have a Republican Party that can only lose four votes in the house. It doesnt take a huge number of them to say, okay, lets have some sort of a power sharing agreement. And of course there was some talk about that last week, with the empowering of an acting speaker, patrick mchenry. I would not be shocked if that option came up again, but again, weve never seen anything remotely like this and we certainly never seen a Political Party squander its majority or inflict these kind of moves on itself like this Republican Party. I think cant think of any historical parallel world where a Political Party as so damaged itself in the run up to the election. And to lisas point about their hope that people will forget all of this, well, we are not close to a resolution, and we are very very close to a government shutdown. And it is this overall impression that they are not interested in gun governing, that they are so extreme, they are so bizarre, they are so uncontrollable that clearly it is going to play into, and if you hear democrat its hard to imagine a scenario thats more attractive, especially knowing that theyre gonna nominate donald trump next year as well, the chaos candidate. There is the process, which is completely chaotic, at best, and the process, again, the first ballot of the evening, closed door voting among the republican conference, congressman mike johnson, called the most important architect of the Electoral College objections in the 2020 election, that man is the top pick at present Behind Closed Doors among republicans this evening. Lisa lerer, charlie sykes, thank you so much for your time this evening. We have a lot to get to on this kinetic night of news, including what one lawmaker says about the fate of this leaderless Republican Party but first is this whole thing about flipping. They call. It ive known about flipping. Ive been watching flippers for the last 40. Reservings wonderful and they get ten years in jail in a flip on whoever the next highest one is. Or as high as you can go. Its gone flipping, and it almost out to be illegal. Don trump did not manage to make flipping illegal during his four years as president , but today he probably wishes he had. Stay with us. aidyl hi, im aidyl, and i lost 90 pounds on golo. I struggled with weight loss and weight gain my entire life. With all the yoyo dieting i did in the past, i would lose 20, 30, 50 pounds just to gain them over and over again. Thanks to golo, ive been able to steadily go down the sizes in my closet and keep the weight off. For the first time in forever, i feel in control. announcer change your life at golo. Com. Thats golo. Com. Only Unitedhealthcare Medicare advantage plans come with the ucard one simple member card that opens doors for what matters. What if we need to see a doctor away from home . We got you with medicare advantages Largest National provider network. Only from unitedhealthcare. After advil. Feeling better . On top of the worlddddd before advil. Advil targets pain at the source of inflammation. When pain comes for you, come back fast with advil liquigels. Heres why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your Devie Duckduckgo comes with a builtn engine like google, but its pi and doesnt spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. And theres no catch. Its fre. We make money from ads, but they dont follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. We were getting ready to win this election. Frankly, we won this election. On election night, 2020, with votes still being counted, donald trump made that very premature victory announcement, launching what would become a widespread fraudulent effort to convince voters and lawmakers in the courts that he had won. But now we know, courtesy of abc news, the trumps own Chief Of Staff at the time, mark meadows, believed that trumps Victory Statement was dishonest. He reportedly told special counsel jack smiths team, obviously, we didnt win. And we know that because abc news is reporting tonight that mark meadows has entered into an Immunity Deal with federal prosecutors. According to their sources, meadows has testified at least three times, including once before a federal grand jury. A lawyer for meadows, however, is disputing abcs reporting. Lawyer George TerwilligerCenter Abc News tonight that i told them they were the story was inaccurate. People have to judge for themselves the decision to run it anyway. Joining me is joyce vance. Joyce, thank you for being here. I find us in a strange position. Why is there no Immunity Deal in georgia if theres one in the pheasant federal election case . How do you read the tea leaves in all of this . Right, so i think part of the confusion, alex, might be over the fact that there is a difference between someone who is indicted and who decides to conclude a plea deal with the government. They plead guilty and they agreed to cooperate and exchange for favorable treatment. Thats the kind of cooperation deals we are seeing here being handed out down in georgia. Meadows, though, i think is in a different category he has been. Offered immunity in exchange for his testimony and perhaps using the word offered is a bit misleading. Because when your immunized, you really no longer have the option of not testifying. You have no fifth amendment right. Nothing that keeps you from testifying. The only real question is the government giving you use immunity or transactional immunity. Use immunity just means that your testimony cant be used against you. You can be prosecuted, but your own testimony cant be used. In transactional immunity, you are actually being given immunity for the Subject Matter that you testify about. So it sounds like mark meadows has testified pursuant to a grant into some form of immunity that hes not actually cooperating with. Aha. Does that explain why it is no deal in place in georgia where hes been fighting that indictment since it was first handed down . I think it could. And this is such a curious situation because you dont expect to see a witness or a defendant Criminal Conduct in one place in criminal contact in another instance in testifying, meadows is preserving his ability to walk this tightrope that hes been walking all along, where he cooperates just enough to avoid indictment, just enough to avoid getting on the criminal side of the line without really conceding. That he is done anything wrong. Mark meadows is the tightrope walker, if there ever was one he would be would be it. Abc news is reporting that meadows informs missed that her repeatedly told trump in the weeks after the election that the allegations of significant voter fraud were baseless. Hes not the only Administration Official reportedly to have done that, but why legally is it being fall for meadows to have done, that being that he has an unindicted coconspirator in the government case . In a Perfect World every prosecutor would want mark meadows as a witness. He accompanied the president everywhere. He was with him on january six. He was around one calls were made to georgia. No better witness to talk about on trumps State Of Mind and what you knew. The problem with meadows, even if this was his testimony, that he would tell different stories and different times to different people. He told entirely different version of the facts in his book. And so with meadows as your witness you have both the credibility and a reliability problem. Will the jury believe him . And will he stick to it . Or will he move back to the other direction as he did when he started cooperating with the january Six Committee . But if he is a credible witness on this issue that trump was told repeatedly and understood that there was no fried, thats really important for prosecutors. Abc also reports that meadows was specifically asked by federal prosecutors if trump ever acknowledged to meadows that he had lost the election and meadows told investigators he had never heard trump say that. Is that problematic for the special counsel . Well, i think its problematic in the sense that prosecutors do need to prove that trump knew. But look, mark meadows, from the getgo, it has been one of those witnesses where prosecutors needed to know what he would say, one way or the other. Didnt really matter if it was good for you are bad for you, they just needed to know where he stood. So he couldnt take the stand, for instance, as a Defense Witness and blindside them. Plenty of other evidence that trump knew that he had last what meadows said here isnt really material. But the certainty about what he would say will have been important to jack smith. I do wonder, joyce, given jan alice today and another attorney pled guilty, how much Pleasure Pressure thats gonna put on meadows or how much interest there would be in terms of Fani Willis Operate Offering . Thats an interesting question, alice. We dont know if fani willis has offered a deal, if shes interested in having him lineup on Cream Prosecution with her, giving his problems in the past. But he must be Feeling Pressure at this point. And if that deal is available, now would be the time for meadows to take advantage of it. He has a very experienced lawyer, a doj insider, who at least this fire has managed to help him avoid Indictment Up in d. C. Very different trajectory in georgia where he is one of the codefendants who is still in the case. They will have to make a decision about where they stand shortly. Yeah, watch this space. A lot going on here. Joyce vance, thank you for joining us tonight. Thanks. When we come back, a little over a decade ago he was the leader of the Republican Party, and then came donald trump. What happened to mitt romney and the rest of the gop. A journalist will join us to talk about ronnys reckoning. Announcer try Tide Power Pods with 85 more tide in every pod. Who needs that much more tide . Everyones gonna need more tide. Its a mess out there. Thats why theres 85 more tide in every power pod. See . Ah. Trelegy for copd. Birds flyin high, you know how i feel. Breeze driftin on by. You know how i feel. You dont have to take. [coughing]. Copd sitting down. Its a new dawn,. Its a new day, its time to make a stand. And im feelin good. Start a new day with trelegy. No oncedaily copd. Medicine has the power to treat copd. In as many ways as trelegy. With three medicines in one inhaler,. 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Stop in while you can still win and shop your Favorite Brands sporting the kick off the Savings Monopoly Tag for unlimited bonus game tickets at lucky donald trump was on the verge of becoming the republican president ial nominee, mitt romney was outraged. Romney was so distressed that he made a lastditch oneman effort to stop trump. He announced that he would be making a speech at the University Of Utah on his own, just to issue a warning. Heres what i know. Donald trump is a phony, a fraud. His promises are as worthless as a degree from trump university. [applause] hes blaming them hes playing the members of the American Public receptors. He gets a free ride to the white house, and i will get a lousy ham. According to a deeply reported new book by the from the atlantics Mckay Coppins, he retired to keep trump from Many Republican nominations. After two failed president ial bids, romney considered running once again in 2016. Romney was willing to wage a quixotic and humiliating president ial bid, if thats what it took. He might even be able to swallow sharing a ticket with ted cruz, someone he described as a scary demagogue in his journal. But romney didnt think that it would actually succeed in taking down trump. He was correct. Since then trumps grip on the Republican Party is not just pushed romney on the outskirts, it has made him a marked man. A few days before january six 2021, spoke to a highranking pentagon official and then immediately called romney. Theres talk of gun, smuggling of bombs and are, sort of Targeting Traders in congress. Romneys name has been popping up in some frightening corners of the internet. King isnt sure romney will be safe. Romney then texted Senate Majority leader mitch mcconnell. There are calls to burn down your home, mitch. To smuggle guns into d. C. And to storm the capital. I hope that sufficient Security Plans are in place, but i am concerned that the instigator, the president , is the one commands reinforcements, the d. C. Capitol police might require senator mcconnell never responded. On january, sixth as rioters began to breach the capitol and senators were ordered to evaporate. Mckay coppins writes that romney can lost his composure and turn to josh hawley, huddled with some of his rightwing colleagues, and romney starts to yell. At least one reporter in the chamber will recall seeing romney throw his hands in a fit of fury as he roared this is what youve gotten, guys. Josh hawley, remains in the senate. And now mitch romney is on his way out. A pariah in a party he once helped lead. But Mckay Coppins takes note, what romney doesnt take pause to consider is an uncomfortable question. Is any of it my fault to . We are going to talk about that and a lot more when Mckay Coppins joins me, coming up next. How you doing . Just resting. Please put your mask on. Its required by law. Im standing six feet away. Ill tell you what im gonna go into it, because i want to have a chat with you. That was senator mitt romney, being confirmed by an angry trump supporter at the airport on january 5th. Of 2021. And it is emblematic of romneys experience as a republican and the trump era, and when the could arguably have contributed to his announcement last month that he will not seek reelection in 2020 fall. In advance of this, over the course of two years, senator romney gave expensive interviews and access to one journalist, Mckay Coppins, off the atlantic. Mckay coppins new essential biography, romney reveals all his thoughts on trump and that Republican Party at a moment when both remain very much in crisis. Joining me now is the author himself, Mckay Coppins, staff writer at the atlantic and author of the new book out today, wrongly a reckoning. Congratulations on a book that is so welltimed, so deep researched, that reviews have been extraordinary. We have a lot to get to. Lets get to it right now. First, the level of just profound personal animus that romney hold for other leading lights in the Republican Party. This is just a few. Lets rhonda santas. There is just no warmth at all, thats one of the nascar quotes. Newt gingrich, a smog, know it all, stormy and too pleased with himself. Rick santorum, sanctimonious, severe, and strange. Rick perry, republicans must realize that we have to have someone who can complete a sentence. Tre cruz, frightening, scary, a demagogue. Huckabee, a huckster, a character of a for profit preacher. Bobby jindal, a twitch. John kasich, lack of thoughtfulness no wonder he and Chris Christie spark. With friends like that. I am eager to know whether this distrust, this distaste for the leaders in his party was it always in him or to trump really catalyze a sense of anger and frustration . I think thats whats important to know about those quotes is some of what he told me over the past two years, some are from his journals dating back a decade. So what that shows is that for a long time, he has had a sense that the Republican Base gravitates toward vigorous who he finds unimpressive, to say the least. Sometimes frightening, right . But especially in the last few years hes seen the party become more and more populist, more and more extreme, and those quotes are starting to get a lot of attention in the last few days. People have said, oh hes consumed with resentment, hes mad that he lost his election. I think what it really reflects is a profound disappointment in that leaders of his party. This party heat once believed in so much that he got represented all these things like free trade and democracy promotion. And now he sees it become a cult of personality around donald trump. He sees these people he ones didnt respect, or at least hold in high regard, really around donald trump, even while in private and i tell him that donald trump is a menace. Hes terrible. But we have to do this because we need to win our next election. I think something after january 6th in him just snapped and he was finally ready to unburden himself, and thats what he did. I have to ask, you bring it up, does romney see himself as part of the trajectory towards trump, however incremental . He did run for office, multiple time higher office, multiple times. In 2012, he helped move the party right vote on immigration and the social safety net. Does he see himself implicated at all in the sort of indignant route of trumpism . Thats actually kind of the question that hung over all of our conversations for two years. And i asked him, multiple times, how complicit are you in what the party has become . And to his credit, he spent a lot of time grappling with that question. And he basically, the story of his career over the last ten years, 15 years, is flirting with the farright in his party in hopes of winning a primary, becoming president , right . But he always believed he could keep them at bay, . Right he could harness the energy of the extreme force in his party but not give in to the let them take over the party. He told me when he was running for president , his whole strategy was, i just have to get to 50. 1 . That means standing on stage and accident Donald Trumps endorsement, ill do it . Now he looks back at those episodes with some regret. He told, me if i did something to give credibility to donald trump as a political figure, i regret it. But he also thinks thats i think its hard for him to accept too much blame because he has been one of very few republicans thats try to push back against the spread of trumpism in his party, whilst almost no one else has. He voted for trumps impeachment, secretary said after january 6th. It seems like he also reserve a special place in hell for that republicans who he knows better. He knows knows better. Including john halle or even ted cruz. The ivy league trained lawyers who he thinks are some of the smartest people in government who not only abide donald trump but support him. Who give him the bully pulpit, effectively. One of the things he told me is, you know, with people like ron johnson, whos a conspiracy theorist, im actually more okay with him because he seems to genuinely believe the crazy things he says. But what he said to me is that john hawley and ted cruz know better. They affect this kind of, you know holier than thou righteous indignation on the hurt of the populist elements of her party, that he knows and it really drives him crazy. That frustration animated a lot of our conversations. Its hard to know with the story of mitt romney will be one that is seen as a tragedy or a story about a hero, or maybe its both. You have this devastating anecdote of him, basically sitting alone by himself in his washington, d. C. Apartment, Eating Salmon on a Hamburger Bun with ketchup watching ted lessard by himself because nobody else wants to hang out with him, and hes now leaving the party, crushed by the machine he was once in charge of. I think he deserves some credit for this last few years, come to terms with what his party has become and what complicity the kind of Mainstream Establishment he was part of has in both parties become. But hes paid a price, right . Hes paid a price for his opposition to trump, not only has it effectively ended his political career, he really would have struggled to get reelected and utah. But his lost friends, lost relationships. Ive seen people, even since this book, that leagues have started from this book, people who once considered themselves bigger mitt romney fans or partisan republicans now turning on him. I think he deserves some credit for even if it was later in his career, being willing to say to things that view in his party are willing to say. And say them to you, my friend. He sent them all to. Youve got everything. I still cant believe. It was a book, Mckay Coppins, congratulations on a pub day. Met you move many unit, my friend. You deserve. Thanks alex. Still ahead, still ahead. As the situation and gossip becomes more tire and is really citizens continue to wait for word of loved ones taken hostage, that men who oversaw president Obamas National SecurityCommunications Says there are unexplored paths at all this conflict. Deputy National Security adviser been rhodes joins me, thats coming up next. My husband and i have never been more active. Shingles doesnt care. I go to spin classes with my coworkers. Good for you, shingles doesnt care. Because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. But shingrix protects. 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Get started for 59. 99 a month for 12 months. Plus, ask how to get an 800 prepaid card with a qualifying internet bundle. Comcast business, powering possibilities. Heres why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your Devie Duckduckgo comes with a builtn engine like google, but its pi and doesnt spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. And theres no catch. Its fre. We make money from ads, but they dont follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. What im about to show you is very hard to watch. So if you would like to take a minute to prepare yourself. Or to step away. You can do that now. Okay. Here we go. These are videos out of a Neonatal Intensive Care Unit in hospital through gaza. Across the gaza strip, there are 130 premature babies who lives right now depend on this type of intensive care. Here that relies on and uninterrupted power supply. Some of these infants cannot be without these machines for even five minutes or they might die. Because israels blockade is still not allowing fuel into gaza. The odds of the premature babies dying needless deaths, they odds increased by the hour. That World Health Organization announced today that six hospitals and gaza have already had to shut down due to lack of fuel. Now this is a video of an israeli woman being captured by hamas on october 7th. In her arms, you can see her three year old and nine month old boys. All three of them are believed to be held hostage by hamas in gaza. According to the israeli military, about 20 of more than 200 people, believed to have been taken hostage, are under the age of 18. The toll this war is taking on civilians is unfathomable. But it is also cyclical. Ben rhodes, former deputy National Security adviser for president about rights, the history of the Israeli Palestinian conflict, the middle east, and the u. S. Is on recent experience suggests that violence is lucky to pick up more violence, that trauma will beget motorola. It is easier to start or escalate wars than two and them, and the consequences of war are always unpredictable. Joining me now is ben rhodes, former deputy National Security adviser for President Obama and cohost, of course, off the podcast saved the world. Thank you for joining me as we talked about a wrenching topic. You helped contextualize this moment in terms of 9 11 and the emotional toll it took in the u. S. And i wonder if you can sort of elaborate on what you think its important to understand the emotional response of this moment as we sort of chart a path forward. Alex, witnessing the 9 11 attacks as a 24yearold in New York City and being filled with rage and believing that pathway to National Security came through vengeance. And not wanting to hear anything about the political context of how we might have gotten their or alternative courses of action, how to respond other than getting these people and do it whatever it took to get them. But i think that if someone told me or told this country collectively, on that day, that our response would lead to war in iraq and all the catastrophe that came with that, the war in afghanistan. The United States casting aside laws of war we had painstakingly helped write yourselves for decades, the rise of autocracies around the world under the guise of counterterrorism. So much was unleashed by our own emotional reaction that was not intended. And frankly, did not turn out of the way we want it to. I think with israel, you have understandable rage and desire for accountability and demand for security, in this moment. But as we are already seeing and gaza, from the ground invasion, this is already unleashing potentially Unintended Consequences in terms of the human toll and gaza but also risks of escalation all across this region, that west bank to lebanon to other parts of the region where we are seeing violence in iraq and syria and yemen and other places. Now is the time to think very carefully about what will be most likely to bring about security and peace that stops this cycle of trauma and violence, that has been the characteristic of the Israeli Palestinian conflict first furlong. And all of the discussions about, this it seems there is almost a false binary presented. Its either massive carnage in gaza or nothing. But of course thats not those are not the only options on the table. And i wonder if you could just elaborate more broadly on what you think our Alternative Posture for israel. It depends on what is the objective of this operation. I think there are some on the far right side of the israeli coalition, and this is not me thinking this, theyve basically said it themselves, who want to essentially push those palestinians, 2 million of them, out of gaza and essentially take that land. And i think there are some in the Military Establishment who just want to deal a huge blow to hamas and its military credibility. And there are some i think you are still voices for peace in the long run. The point here is, if the objective is on the other end of this war and whatever is not and hamas, if the objective is peace between israelis and palestinians, then there has to be thinking done about how you achieve that. How do you not do something thats going to put it further away and make it less likely in the future. I think those accounted of exist, which israel have been some high ground here from the horrific nature of these attacks, and from the fact that a lot of the other arab countries have no love for hamas. They see them as an iranian proxy and iran as an enemy. You could go to these countries, some with three deep pockets like saudi arabia and the uae, and say this is a time for you to build and allow the palestinian leadership in gaza. Well take care of hamas, well do it in a targeted way. We might not preoccupied that gaza strip, might not have a full scale graduation. The greater capabilities, perhaps take out their lives. But we need to couple that with an effort to significantly invest in a totally different palestinian internship, that can be a partner in dade lasting peace. Anything it doesnt incorporate the objectives of the peace between israelis and palestinians, will leave us and i cycle of violence will also raising all manner of risks, escalation across the region and perhaps in another crisis. Youre write so eloquently about the role the u. S. Needs to play in forging a more lasting peace, or making sure this doesnt end and mass civilian casualties. It is worth reading. Ben rhodes, my friend, always good to hear from you. Thank you for your time and thoughts. Tonight thanks. Alex we have some Breaking News on the chaos in the house. Republicans have chosen mike johnson to be their fourth speaker nominee. Congressman johnson was a leader in getting republicans to support that big lie in the house. He organized his colleagues to sign on to a lawsuit to overturn the election. The house is now adjourned until noon tomorrow, which is the earliest we could see a full for a vote on johnsons bid for speaker. That is, if Congressman Johnson even lasts that long as speaker does ignite. That is our show for tonight. Now it is time for the last word, with jonathan capehart, in for lawrence. Great to see you, alex. But seriously . Yeah, seriously. Mike johnson. There is another one. You cant step away from the tv too long, or they will be another speaker does it. So everyone stay tuned until that we small hours, because who knows what will happen 45 pin from. Now who knows. You and i have been covering politics for a long time, but we both agree, we have never seen anything like this. We sure have, and my friends. Have a great. Not have a good show. We have major Breaking News and another big story, Breaking News that puts donald trump in serious legal jeopardy and both of the state and federal cases involving his efforts to steal the 2020 president ial election. Thats because more of his allies, including his inner circle, appear to be cooperating with prosecutors