Transcripts For MSNBCW All 20240702

Grand jury . Explosive new reporting that mark meadows was granted immunity. It sounds like, according to reporting, that the Special Counsel immunized mark meadows. We have a sense of as another trump lawyer flips in court. If i knew that what i knew now, i would have declined to represent donald trump in the post election challenges. And the indicted ex president kneecaps the latest republican bid for speaker for not being loyal to trump. I saw him or, hes finished. Hes not a supporter. Tonight, speaker emerita nancy pelosi on all of the above than inside the courtroom where Michael Cohen testified with his former boss in co. And as bombing continues and hundreds remain hostage, what we know about why a Ground Incursion into gaza still has not happened. Dont, dont throw fuel on the fire. When all in starts right now. Good evening from new york, i am chris hayes. Tonight, we have a report that mark meadows, the Chief Of Staff to donald trump on january six has been granted immunity from Special Counsel jack smith and exchange for his testimony, the federal investigation into the ex president s attempt to overturn the 2020 election. The Summer Grand Jury indicted trump of four Felony Counts including conspiracy to defraud the United States. Now, according to abc news, meadows has spoken with Special Counsel jack smiths team at least three times this year, including once before a federal grand jury. Meadows pulled smiths team that he warned trump that his claims of voter fraud are baseless. Well have much more on that for that Significant Development for the fourtime currently indicted president in Manhattan Court today facing a 250 Million Dollar civil fraud trial, while this mountain of legal peril keeps growing, donald trump proved that the power of the Republican Party in congress has not waned. This afternoon, in the midst of those legal proceedings, which he showed up for, for some reason, the ex president took time to intervene into the race for speaker and through the house into chaos yet again. Trump appeared to single head of the sink is parties later Speaker Designate two weeks into the ongoing and deepening Republican Leadership crisis. It began today, the 21st day at the speaker of a hopefuls battling out for gavel, after the republican second Speaker Designated dropped out last week, that was jim jordan. A front runner emerge from the pack after a series of votes, you may not have heard of, the majority went with tom emmer of minnesota, making him to number three for leadership. Hes probably best known as succeeding the republican firebrand Michelle Baekeland in her own district. He spent several years at the house supporting Donald Trumps decisions 90 of the time. Hes one of more than 100 republican lawmakers this sign on to a Lawsuit Contesting the 2020 election results. Theres one big fall and tom emmers maga credentials. On that fateful day, january 2021, he voted to certify the election, to uphold americas constitutional republic. Of course, that is a red line for donald trump and this faction of the party. After five rounds of voting, closed door Conference Meetings, emmer be people like johnson of louisiana, by 27 votes. A third Speaker Designate in less than three weeks. And two hours, donald trump on a break from his fraud trial began attacking him. In a truth social post, trump called emmer, republican in name only, adding that he never expected the power of the trump endorsement with the breath and scope of magna. The ex president questioned the speakers loyalty, saying he was pro trump all the way but who can never be sure. He included a warning that voting for emmer would be a tragic mistake. Trump followed that up with a verbal takedown directed at the cameras at a quick gathering in the courthouse. Tom emmer, looks like he is finished. He was a rhino, looks like he is finished, well see. You never know. That was pretty much it for tom emmer. A hour later, a sudden three hours after winning that coveted nomination, three hours as a Speaker Designate, three hours digging that he was th speaker of the house t in that estates, emmer dropped out of the race for speaker. Sources told nbc news that trumps comments, specifically the truth social st, made it an uphill climb for the congressman. He had to flip about 200,000 votes in his favor. If you have another vote, he would lose, which is part of why he decided to drop out and settle letting it track. Out so, with only a few sentences, donald trump saying tom emmers chances of holding to gavel, to sake sank his omission of the speakership of mccarthy as well as the republicans to replace kevin mccarthy, Steve Scalise, and then he gloated about it. What i said must have had an impact, because as soon as the endorsement did not go particularly well by them, as you have heard, maga in the Republican Party, they want to see i disagree with them, i soon had a big impact. Thanks to Derek De Facto leader, the republicans are back to square one. At this very moment, the republican Conference Meeting again. What in mere, meeting after meeting after meeting for the same people, the same process, with no way out, they are going to vote on another new Speaker Designate. Okay, good luck, have at it. In the meantime, the house is about to enter its fourth week of paralysis. The chaos has serious repercussions, but we have no idea how it will end. Sahil kapur is nbc news senior Political National reporter. He has been closely following the speaker chaos, and he joins me now. Sahil, every day starts oneway and ends another. Did you see the emmer drop out coming . Well, chris, it certainly matched what happened with the previous two nominees, so it was a fair bet that emmer will likely meet the same fate as the fiscally said jim jordan. There are 221 republicans, they need 217 to elect a speaker, and right now they are back at it, holding on a candidate for behind closed doors. It began with six candidates and is down to five. One has already dropped out, and the odds on favorite to be the next nominee for the republicans for speaker is mike johnson, currently the vice chair of the republican conference, first elected in 2016, hes from louisiana, does not have that much of a national profile, and House Republicans are expected to vote as early as sunday potentially, as early as this hour to pick their next nominee. From there, it would be on that person to find the 217 votes. Ive got to tell you, chris, we met with a number of republican lawmakers today, there are layers upon layers upon layers of bad blood that developed over these past few weeks or so, starting with the motion to evict kevin mccarthy. His allies are still mad about that. Institutionalist republicans interpreters are mad about the way that Steve Scalise was treated. They felt that he was stabbed in the back. Now farright allies of jim jordan agreed that they are accused of bullying tactics, when all of them were engaged in those tactics. They took that out on tom emmer today. But johnson will have to do with all these other guys failed to do. While this might ultimately come down to who told her 17 republicans a police, not who they like the most, because the people that they like most clearly arent getting the job done. In the meantime, they have a November 17th Deadline to fund the government or face a shutdown that will get aid to israel and ukraine piling up, Biden Administration supplemental that will include strategies to contain china. The other day, chris, to keep in mind, and there is a lot of talk about the small majorities, but your next guest, nancy pelosi, this is an identical small majority with four votes of a margin, and she did not have to face any of these problems. There is a real difference between the two parties here. Republicans are more willing to tolerate the chaos on the goals that democrats are, chris. Thank you very much, as sahil just, said congresswoman nancy pelosi served in San Francisco for 35 years. She is the former democratic speaker at the house, flip the house for 20 years a speaker, nancy pelosi joins me. Now its good to have you here. I guess my first question, for someone who started in politics from the time you were a child. Your father was the mayor of baltimore. You know politics are very well. Are you surprised it has gotten this bad over there, and its gone this long . First, may i thank you for the opportunity to spend some time with you. What i learned in baltimore from my father was how to count votes. That is always really important, and that seems to be something that is lacking on the other side of the aisle. Am i surprised . I am really surprised in politics, but i do think that it is surprising that the republicans do not honor the Oath Of Office to protect and defend the constitution of the United States, to honor the institution in which we serve and respect the obligation that we have to the American People to get the job done for them. So, whatever differences we may have, and we all have our differences in politics, within our party and visavis the other party, at some point, you have to come to a decision as to how you are going to get the job done. You weigh the equitys. I care about this, i care about that, but do i care about the American People the most . Do i care about my Oath Of Office. Do i respect the institution in which i serve. That should without any of the other differences that we have within our parties and congress. I want to follow that up with a little bit of shop top by observers as one of the most effective leaders of our time. You saw sahil talk about the resentments that have been built, people are mad, people after each round, there is some new faction, how do you go about on the democratic side, where i think there is this governing vision, ditching those factors together, what would be your approach of a leader that rises to the occasion and tries to get people over the sense of feeling angrier or snapped . I would say one word, which would define it all, respect. Respect which leads you to build consensus, to come to a place where people weigh the equities. As i have said before, come to a conclusion that, for this vote at this time, this is the right thing for our country. I also accept any compliment on behalf of my House Democrats do have the courage to make some of the difficult decisions that are needed to come to consensus on the particular vote, and to have another debate another day, but not try to win every fight every day. Pick your fights carefully, respect your caucus and build consensus. By the way, i was down to two votes, dante to. I was down to two. Yes, and we never saw anything like this, as many people have remarked upon. One of the things that happened today, which seems to be really, part of this, i find sort of entertaining. Its sort of funny to watch. Something that is darker to me is the fact that tom emmers vote to certify the election, and any vote to certify the election, uphold the constitutional republic, is currently a red line for donald trump personally and the maga faction. I wonder what you think the implications are for the country and for the house if that is the case, if that is a Disqualifying Vote . Lets just look at today. Today, you had the former president of the United States in court, his chief chief, as he called himself in his book, mark meadows, saying that he told the president that he was wrong about the election, least that is what is represented it in the press. The president s chief is getting immunity for what he has to say about what the president knew about the election, and you have republicans in congress listening to a president in court, his own Chief Of Staff is saying that it was wrong, and they are using that as the basis of how they go forward. What i learned from thes to the republicans in america, take back your party, the grand old party, a great party that made such a constitution to our country, with the great leadership and so many ways. Again, who am i to be advocating for a strong Republican Party, but it is what our country needs in addition to a strong democratic party, whatever party that people put out there. But not to have a cult to really effectively elect a thug as the manifestation of the Republican Party now. The same day that he is in court, his chief staff asked for immunity and they are following the lead of the person whom his Chief Of Staff is asking for immunity to tell the truth about. Something is wrong with this picture, and i just think if we can get over this, and republicans can be their true selves, their conservative selves, not the fringe element of the spectrum of where you are in terms of the role of government. They dont believe in governments, understand that. This, to them, its not any break in the action. They dont want any action. This is it. This is like glory, hallelujah. They dont seem in a rush. Theyre mad at each other. I want to ask you about one of the pressing reasons that there is a Government Shutdown happening, and as the president announced in that primetime speech, an aid package to ukraine and israel. Those are the pressing concerns for policy. I want to ask about the israel portion of that. We talked about some of the internal factions of the Republican Party. For the democratic party, there is widespread consensus support for the aid package, but there are two dozen members calling for a ceasefire and pop the pop concern for escalation, and what it will mean from a humanitarian and strategic level. I wonder if youre having inter caucus conversations about those concerns, if you share those concerns, and where you think the party goes in the next step of this very difficult situation . First, let me say that our priority right now is to get the hostages freed. I thought that what Secretary Blinken said today at the ignited nations, calling for a humanitarian pause in Military Action so that we can try to find a more peaceful path, especially right away, to get more hostages free, not just american, but that is our responsibility, of the hostages freed. This cease fire, i think the humanitarian pause is the way to go. Look, what hamas did was barbaric in israel. It was barbaric, outside the circle of civilized human behavior. If it happened to your family, you would want justice. I am not talking about revenge, i am saying justice. So there has to be some other place we go instead of saying lets have a ceasefire. We had a ceasefire in may, that was broken by hamas on october 7th. Lets remember that. There may be a few votes in the caucus that will not support the package, but by and large, it will be overwhelmingly supported. We just have to get a speaker on the republican side, they won, they got the confidence of the American People, no, they should show that theyre worthy at the confidence by at least electing a leader, a speaker, so that we can conduct a business of congress. That includes coming forth with this package and then keeping government open after that. But to your point, i think that there may be a few votes against, and some of those votes have been vocal, but overwhelmingly, there will be support for it, on the democratic side. The order of operations here requires a speaker of the house before anything of that happens. At least the way that the rule is currently constituted. Who knows what tomorrow will bring, congresswoman and speaker america. Its a pleasure to have you on. Thank you. My pleasure, thank you. Coming up, a third trump lawyer speaks guilty in georgia. Trumps original fixer testifies him against new york, and there are new reports that his Chief Of Staff has an Immunity Deal from the chief of counsel. What it all means for the future future keep being you. And ask your Healthcare Provider about the number one prescribed hiv treatment, biktarvy. Biktarvy is a complete, onepill, onceaday treatment used for hiv in many people whether youre 18 or 80. With one small pill, biktarvy fights hiv to help you get to undetectable and stay there whether youre just starting or replacing your current treatment. Research shows that taking hiv treatment as prescribed and getting to and staying undetectable prevents transmitting hiv through sex. Serious side effects can occur, including Kidney Problems and kidney failure. Rare, lifethreatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems. Do not take biktarvy if you take dofetilide or rifampin. 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News broke today that two members of his inner coup circle are reportedly talking to prosecutors, including the former Chief Of Staff. They began with one of his former lawyers, Codefendants Pleading Guilty in the georgia r. I. C. O. Case. I recognize him, he standing right there. Abc news reporting that is former Chief Of Staff mark meadows on the left has been talking about Special Counsel jack smith and his team in exchange for immunity. According to abc news, citing ces familiar with the matter, mark meadows has spoken with Special Counsel jack smiths team at least three times this year, including once before a federal grand jury, which came only at this myth granted meadows admitted a testify in both. Nbc news has not indepeeny verified the reporting, and Meadows Quarter put nbc news, in part, quote, i told abc that their story was largely inaccurate. Not specifying what was inaccurate, merciless trying to sort that out. Meadows news broke hours after another one of trumps former attorneys, jenna ellis, pleaded guilty in trumps r. I. C. O. Case. Weeks after the 2020 election, you may remember, ellis seen their, traveled extensively with Rudy Giuliani, pushing the big lie in several states, including georgia. She is not the fourth person and the third attorney to plead guilty and that georgia r. I. C. O. Case and the first to read out a statement in court. As an attorney who is also a question, i take my responsibilities as a lawyer seriously, and i aspire to be a person with moral and ethical character in all of my details. In the wake of the 2020 president ial election, i believe that challenging the results on behalf of donald trump should be pursued and adjust and legal way. If i knew what i knew now, i would have declined to represent donald trump and the postelection challenges. Temidayo agangawilliams, a former federal prosecutor, who served as a Senior Counsel joins me now. I want to start by noting, you had to be a word that you got the third trump lawyer pleading guilty on the same day that one another ex lawyer Michael Cohen, testifying against him and the civil fraud case, after having pleaded guilty as. Will the unbelievable, and i would dare would say, unprecedented with lawyers of this guy ending up in criminal piece, i think this is a Record Setting run that Donald Trumps lawyers are on. Probably so, but there are one things that lawyers are, its thats why its so rare, thats my point. I think the lawyers are also going to be will equipped to see that they are facing criminal exposure, in terms of please. I think lawyers will likely beat the first ones, self defendants, who can see down the road, see mandatory minimums, and they will be the ones that will likely want to be out there for us and not the best still possible, just because what was happening here. Lets talk about jenna ellis. One of the things noted here is that chesbrough and sidney powell, each pleaded last meek, its unclear one at the issues flagged by Andrew Weissmann and the program last week, its unclear how full that cooperation is. Pal seemed to have some kind of more traditional cooperation agreement. With prosecutors, i want to play what Rudy Giuliani said back in august at the suggestion that is number two, his former Lieutenant General janet ellis might flip. He did not react, take a listen. I hope that is not the case. She was my number two. She was excellent, and she was firmly convinced of the election, she was firmly convinced that the election was over. It was more zealous about the fact that it was a stolen election dan jenna ellis. I think anybody on that team with testify to that, so i would find it hard to believe that she did that. He could have gotten intimidated. I dont know what that is saying, but she does not want her to flip. It seems to me like if you talk to trumps lawyers, jenna ellis flipping puts squarely Rudy Giuliani in the sights. Surely does, but theyre also talking about a r. I. C. O. Case. Anytime you get evidence against one defendant, that goes against all of them. Yes, you are building a case against rudy, but that case against rudy will also be a case against trump. Its not just that for one person, its not for everybody left over. Its interesting that you say that, because i remember when the case was brought, the last of the criminal cases to be brought, there was a lot of time wasted on georges r. I. C. O. Law, a strong candy Fulton County Office Manage the complex case . Willis is having a pretty good time so far, imran . You are not wrong. She has given pretty generous plea deals. Times will tell whether those are good deals. The federal prosecutors, i would have say the same thing. I think time will tell, but she is clearly focused on getting people which is what people thought she would do. She is narrowing down the defendants quite quickly. She is moving solely from a prosecutors perspective, this is lightning speed. I cant get over how fast it is. We dont know, we have the abc report, i guess my question to you is, it seems to me that there is a spectrum between cooperating and testifying under immunity before a grand jury or talking to federal prosecutors. Is there a distinction between those two . 100 , and i think its the conflating of those and they have to go past that. Cooperation, that means are facing criminal explosion, you want leniency, and he basically lay down your sort. You think for yourself. Its like, tell me everything you know and then maybe, will go easy on you. 100 , exactly. When i was a prosecutor, what it was like is that you come and say everything you have done, from the crimes that you could be charged with two every piece of candy ever stolen. That is cooperation. Now, you could have immunity, which could be more specific. A specific example, the reporting says that he ied front of the grand jury. He could be immunized for that purpose. Does not mean that he socalled flipped the way the people noted. It could mean that he is doing what . Mark meadows is knowing what to do. Go up to the line, do it enough to perhaps get out of trouble and then pull back. The Famous Meadows to step. It looks like ellis is more in the cooperator category. For a chesebro and powell, remains to be seen. That is a useful spectrum. Thank you. Still ahead, another trump lawyer, another one, yeah, another trump lawyer pleads guilty. The original trump lawyer that trump witness testified against his old boss in court. You know that guy, he was in that courtroom with trump and Michael Cohen will be here at the table next to tell us about it. F course. Put it in check with rinvoq, a oncedaily pill. When i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid Symptom Relief and helped Leave Bathroom urgency behind. Check. When uc tried to slow me down. I got lasting, steroidfree remission with rinvoq. Check. And when uc caused Damage Rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. Check. Rapid Symptom Relief. Lasting steroidfree remission. And the chance to visibly repair the colon lining. Check, check, and check. Rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. Serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. People 50 and older with at least 1 Heart Disease risk factor have higher risks. Dont take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. 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In the end, trumps loyalty to trump caused him to lose his law license and also may his freedom. He sentenced to three years in prison in part for the hush money. Then, quite famously turned on his former boss, testifying for Congress Under or and warning republicans led to trump what laid ahead for them. I protected mr. Trump for ten years, and i can only warn people that the more people that filed mr. Trump, as i did blindly are going to suffer the same consequences that i am suffering. Something precious there given how many lawyers in the past week have pleaded guilty. Michael cohen has since written books about trump, hosted a podcasts, making him Public Enemy Number One for the trump family. He interrupted not been in the same room for five years, until today, when cohen testified in trumps civil fraud trial in new york. Trump was asked during a break he fell to see Michael Cohen . We know his record is a horrible one. Its not going to end up good for you. Michael, how did it feel to see donald trump again . Heck of a reunion. Legal analysts lisa rubin was inside that courtroom today, and she joins me now. Paint the picture, what was it like . Chris, i was expecting that there would be fireworks between donald trump and Michael Cohen, and actually, they to attend behaved rather well with respect to one another. However, huge fireworks at the end of the day, from alina habba, from trumps prophesy in getting cohen to admit something, which i think many of us have seen coming, but didnt. Which is that when he took his guilty plea in 2080 and pled guilty to a series of crimes including federal tax evasion, lying on a home equity line credit application, essentially, she got cohen to admit that he was lying when he took the guilty plea because he continues to maintain that he did not commit those crimes. In that way, hes cut from the same cloth as his former boss. Unwilling to accept the responsibility that today hit him in the tush. That is a great point and evocative. He said that to me i mean, he said in court today, he thinks he got railroaded, and he took it to get out of it. Basically in court today, he said, yeah, i dont actually accept the guilt for the guilty plea. I was lying in my guilty plea but telling the truth now. Also, i light a ton as a matter of record for donald trump, and she went at him overnight. She did. She essentially suggested not erroneously that Michael Cohen may have admitted a separate crime a Perjury Connection with taking a guilty plea when he was under oath when he said he is lying now, which he read committed in self today. In front of a State Court Judge under oath, Michael Cohen said i was lying when told a federal judge that i did things that, in fact, i did not do. You should believe me now when i tell all these things that donald trump and his intent in the conversations we had. Its also wild psychology because its like, why would you cup to that . Just say, i accept. You could just say, i accept it. But Michael Cohen was incapable of doing that. He continues timothy and i took the plea deal for protection of my family. I did that for my wife and father, but i did not do those things. The fact that he has set so so often and publicly were his downfall as a witness today. The Michael Cohen as a witness problem, we discussed. You have somebody that is very impeachable, that admitted to lying multiple times. He talks to the press a lot, including sitting in that chair speaking to me. I enjoyed talking to Michael Cohen. I think hes a fascinating figure, but you dont want that as your chief witness. The reason he was there was basically to walk through part of what he said and the congressional testimony was the core of the case, which is how he was the fulcrum by which these assets were inflated or diminished depending on what trump wanted. I want to push back on that a little bit. Its at the core of the case. The Attorneys Generals Office could and did prove persistent illegality, based mostly on documents. Where they needed Michael Cohen was to establish trumps intent and to place trump and a Michael Cohen says, he, trump and allen weisselberg, the former cfo, got in terms together repeatedly over years, were trump what essentially use i think might net worth should be say, six billion, and then he and weisselberg were tasked of making that happen, by rivercentering values. Weisselberg said it did not happen, presumably, trump only takes the stand, as he promised, well do, well say, Michael Cohen does not know what he is talking about. Michael cohens credibility was incredibly important to the a. G. On this issue of trumps own intent and directive to a very limited group of people, as you know, by design, trump thus. He only takes the room with a limited number of people, does not tax, does not email, the. Like how weisselberg was predominantly to reverse engineer that phrase, increase those assets in order to achieve a number that mr. Trump asked us. That was his testimony today. There was that nugget that i found fascinating, no text, no Written Communication of this in writing and read letters to the members of a new phone number that they talk to . Not the phone number, the new number for the values. Oh right. Every year, there would be one page turner that was essentially a summary of the values. He and weisselberg, cohn testified, would get together and devise the new values for each one that were given to trump, and trump would send it back to them in red pen. That is only what they got from him. Lisa reuben, as always, so good to have you in the courtroom, thank you for being here with us at the end of the day. Thank you. Still to come, as israel prepares for an invasion of gaza, that still has not materialized. 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My mom is saying that they were very friendly towards them and that they took care of them. It is believed hamas is Still Holding 200 hostages. The pictures of men, women, and children as young as nine months can be found all over israel, along with public vigils in their honor. President biden has previously said their release is the top priority for the United States. It is unclear if and how those negotiations are unfolding, but the Hostage Situation is just one possible reason people speculated that there has not yet been a full grounding corrosion into gaza by the Israeli Defense forces more than two weeks after hamass mass killing in israels south. There is also another factor, this year humanitarian cost to the people of gaza in those two plus weeks of airstrikes so far, even before any Ground Incursion of any kind has been done. Gaza health ministry, run by hamas, puts the death toll of gazans at 5000. And while it is impossible to verify those numbers, and, it is plainly the case that Civilian Casualties have been staggering since israel began intensified strikes in response to the hamas attacks more than two weeks ago. They have been more bombs dropped in just two weeks than in any air campaign of any power in recent memory. On top of that, gaza has also largely been without incoming food, water, and crucially fuel, for weeks now, due to an israeli blockade that was initiated after the hamas massacre. This is, and its crucial to note, significantly more severe as a blockade and a longstanding blockade israel has imposed on gaza since 2007. The United Nations estimates that approximately 20 trucks a day are now crossing the one Border Crossing that doesnt go to israel, thats the egypt Border Crossing, to deliver aid. But the u. N. Says those trucks were not able to cross the border today. The Organization Says more than 20 times the current aid is necessary to meet the needs of gazans. For context, the u. N. Says about 465 trucks full of aid were needed for aid to gaza before this latest conflict. Today the director of the World Health Organization big the International Community for help saying, quote, we are on our knees asking for that sustained, skilled, up protected humanitarian aid. That humanitarian misery looks like its only going to get worse if there is a Ground Incursion, which israel says is coming. Its also clear that the very highest reaches of the u. S. Government, officials are expressing their reservations about israels plan for the next stage. There is a reason for that. Next. Son for that next safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when theyd arrive with a replacement we could trust. Thats service the way we want it. Singers safelite repair, safelite replace. 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Good thing you chose u. S. Bank to manage and grow your money. With our 24 7 support at least youre not taking chances with your finances. Yeah, i think im gonna need a chair. 17 days after hamas launched oh, ohhhh. A series of Terror Attacks in israel, unanticipated Ground Invasion in gaza has not materialized. The next guest reports the New York Times that maybe because of unaddressed concerns from the white house. Quote, the Biden Ministration is concerned that israel lacks achievable military objectives and gaza, and the israel Defense Forces are not ready to launch a Ground Invasion with a plan that can work. Washington Center Israel about Four Billion Dollars in military aid every year. That is in addition to a planned 14 Billion Dollar package that President Biden has asked congress to approve. Israels Defense Minister acknowledge that leverage, at least on the question of humanitarian aid coming in from the south. Americans insisted, were not in a place where we can refuse, that we rely on them for planes and military equipment. What are we supposed to do . Tell them no . This is a correspondent who reported that piece, and she reported she joins us now. I was struck by your piece, partly the specific experience that lloyd austin brings t this. In his conversations with israel defense, austin has described the Hard Fought Campaign to clear the iraqi city of muzzle of Islamic State Fire Fighters in 2017 at the time he was the head of Central Command and american troops were breaking backing the kurdish and iraqi counterparts in the fight. That was one of the most beautiful brutal fights, with enormous Civilian Casualties. Hi, chris. Thanks for having me. It has been really interesting watching the evolution of how both the United States and israel has come to this, this point where we are at right now in the immediate days after the horror of october 7th. You heard so much from the Biden Administration about how we will stand behind israel, there are no conditions on military aid we are sending them. This is israels 9 11. They have the right to self defense. And none of that is changed. But as people start, and as the Administration Officials start to think through what a Ground Invasion of gaza would mean, you are starting to see a few flags coming up. In particular, its just hard. You have reported a lot, and we have reported these Tunnels Underneath gaza that hamas has used, this entire one defense official described to me as the tunnels to me as sort of military cities, almost, that go so far into the ground. Another Pentagon Official told me that they estimate that they are like 300 miles of tunnels, possibly, underneath gaza. Thats an extraordinary endeavor. Clearing those out is not going to be hard. Israel has master many thousands of troops at the border right now. The stated goal of s been to eradicate hamas. But the question becomes, how are you going to do that . And thats where lloyd austin, in many ways, we couldnt have a Defense Secretary who is better prepared for this particular moment because he is the former, as you know, hes the former commander of the United States Central Command. He was the guy in charge when we were doing the Islamic State, when we began the islamic straight state campaign. He was the guy in charge with United States was supporting, with airstrikes, iraqi and kurdish troops and clearing out both mosel and rocca. There were a lot of Underground Tunnels in play there. One Military Official i talked to yesterday was talking about just how hard muscle and raqqa were. Mosel, for instance, it took nine months for iraqi forces, backed by american Fighter Pilots in the sky who were doing airstrikes, to begin to do that. And keep in mind, now, iraq, in the case of mosel and rocca, the Islamic State had two years to set up their defenses. Hamas has been in control of gaza since 2007. They have 15 years to kind of put all their defenses into place and as you saw the video of the hostage who was released earlier today talk about it, and she spoke to reporters about being watched for many kilometers in a spider web of tunnels. Its not going to be that easy. And as the pentagon starts to assess just how hard this is going to be, Pentagon Officials are starting to talk to idf officials, Israeli Defense forces, and the israeli Minister Of Defense about making sure that your cleareyed and know exactly what youre trying to do and how youre going to do it and then beyond that, the civilian costs, and just look at what happened with this Gaza Hospital Bombing where nuzzle reports said this was done by israel and israel in the u. S. Came out afterwards and said we dont believe this was done by israel. Still a lot of question about who exactly was behind. This was a palestinian rocket or was it originally misfire . Was it an israeli strike . The arab leaders canceled meetings with President Biden. You saw the arab world explode over that. Can you imagine, now, a Ground Invasion of gaza . We have already seen some, according to the hamas run ministry of health, theyre seeing 5000 civilians being killed. We dont know that that number is correct because civilian casualty numbers are always all over the place, but theres no question that many many civilians have already been struck. So a Ground Invasion could bring us to something that is far worse. I think that something that the pentagon is trying to get the israelis to think through. Helene cooper, of the New York Times, who wrote that piece on the back and forth, thank you very much. Thank you. That is all in on this tuesday night. Alex wagner starts right now. Good evening, alex. And th