Mark, you cant possibly think were going to pull this off. That call was crazy. He looked at me and started shaking his head, no, cass. He knows its over. He knows he lost. But were going to keep trying. There are good options out there still. Were going to keep trying. Cassidy hutchinson talking about mark meadows and tonight, there is blockbuster new reporting that meadows has been granted immunity to testify under oath about trumps efforts to overturn the election. Also tonight, a Tearful Jenna Ellis apologizes for her role in the Georgia Election interference rico crimes. Agreeing to tell prosecutors and a jury all that she knows about the trump gangs illegal activities. Plus, a third republican Speaker Designate down the drain today and a search for the fourth which is not a joke anymore. Its a disgrace. We begin tonight with breaking news. A potentially explosive development in jack smiths federal case against donald trump and his attempt to overturn the 2020 election. Abc news is reporting mark meadows, Trumps White House chief of staff, was granted immunity by the Special Counsel in exchange for his testimony under oath before a grand jury. Abc reports that according to sources familiar with the matter, meadows has spoken with smiths team at least three times this year. And reportedly told them that he had warned the former president about his election lies. Abc reports, quote, the sources said meadows informed smiths team that he repeatedly told trump in the weeks after the 2020 president ial election that the allegations of significant voting fraud coming to them were baseless. A striking break from trumps prolific rhetoric regarding the election. According to the sources, meadows also told the federal investigators that trump was being dishonest with the public when he first claimed to have won the election only hours after polls closed on november 3rd, 2020, before final results were even in. Obviously, we didnt win, a source quoted meadows as telling smiths team. In hindsight. Nbc news has not confirmed the reporting but the testimony from meadows, one of the people closest to trump at the time, would be Critical Evidence in smiths case and his ability to establish proof beyond a doubt that trump knew he lost and tried to overturn a democratic election anyway. Im joined now by democratic congressman adam schiff of california. This seems to me, congressman schiff, to be the big one because mark meadows was the closest person to trump in helping him overturn the election. Your take on this news from abc . Well, i think it is very big news. In a way, its not surprising. People never expected mark meadows to be a steve bannon, you know, gleefully riding into jail on behalf of donald trump. That is not mark meadows. He never signed up to go to jail. He was carrying out Donald Trumps dirty work every day, but Self Preservation has kicked in. And it appears he is cooperating. The challenge with him is hes written a book which was touting all the trump lies. Hes told a lot of the trump lies himself, so he is not a perfect witness by any means. But nevertheless, having him be able to confirm conversations, having him be able to share firsthand information about what donald trump knew and saw, any acknowledgment of his loss of the election privately while trump was out publicly telling the big lie, all of that is still going to be very useful for prosecutors. You mentioned the book, and hes now allegedly, this is according to abcs reporting, admitted he doesnt even believe the stuff in his book. In terms of his usefulness to prosecutors you did mention the book. The fact he is now saying he published a book, presumably took an advance and payment from the publisher and now is telling investigators he doesnt believe whats in the book, how does that taint or impact him as a witness . It will certainly impact his credibility. You can imagine if he were called as a witness by jack smith to testify about what trump did and said, he would be impeached with his own words in his book, which is why youre going to need corroboration for what meadows is saying, other means of proof. Still useful, still important. Prosecutors will make the case as they often do in Organized Crime Cases that crooks surround themselves with other crooks. And youre going to have to rely on imperfect witnesses to tell the story. For someone that close to trump, in all the meetings, to essentially have flipped and be willing to talk is significant. I do think more valuable witnesses are people like cipollone, the white House Counsel, and others that dont have quite as strong a taint as mark meadows. But nevertheless, this is an important development. You add to it these other lawyers surrounding trump, the Sidney Powells, jenna ellises, chesebros and others, and the walls start closing in on donald trump. Indeed, and of course, jenna ellis now also taking a plea. Let me let you respond to that because now you do have somebody who was in supposedly this High Level Team of the strike force, they called themselves. Now two of the three of the members of the supposed strike force, Sidney Powell, and jenna ellis, have pleaded guilty. For donald trump, this does seem pretty dire. It does. You know, these are basically i think they were referred to by the white House Counsel lawyers as the clown car lawyers. You know, the team there was team normal and then team clown car. These were members of the clown car along with giuliani. I think both donald trump needs to be worried about them providing states evidence, but also Rudy Giuliani needs to be concerned. These were a couple of his righthand people. And you know, its all cumulative. You can use them to corroborate Documentary Evidence. You can use them to set the time and place of other meetings. Theyll provide insights you cant get from others. So its just adding to the body of evidence. For those who wondered why is the Fulton County d. A. Indicting 19 people in the same indictment, you cant possibly try a case with 19 people. You cant, she doesnt have to anymore. Every day, every week, more people are pleading guilty. And theyre going to be taken out of the trial and be added to the stable of witnesses. Absolutely. Let me read a little of this reporting on whether trump acknowledged he lost. This is important to his dens while speaking with instators, meadows was specifically askedf trump ever acknowledged to him that he lost the election. Meadows said he never heard trump say that, according to sources. What do you make of that . Well, i think in that reporting as well, there is an acknowledgment by trump when the Supreme Court rules against him, well, thats it. Im done. But he wasnt done. And he went on to challenge the election in other ways. And this is what you get with mark meadows. Youre going to get kind of a little bit on this side, a little on that side, that is sort of how he conducted affairs in the white house. Telling each Different Group that appeared what they wanted to hear. And i think were seeing more of this in the reporting about his testimony before the grand jury. But its very characteristic of who he is and that is quite chameleon like, which does make him challenging as a witness. Not without value potentially with significant value, but certainly not problemfree either. As you just mentioned, part of the abc, when the Supreme Court ruled on december 11, 2020, denying the final court trial, trump said thats it, thats the end. Theres also this reporting from abc that meadows h allegedly told investigators that trump seemed to grow increasingly coerned as he learned about what was transpiring at the capitol and was visibly shaken when he heard that someone had been shot there. Your thoughts on that. Well, thats a new insight that we havent heard. We have certainly seen and heard testimony about how cavalierly he was watching these events unfold in the dining room, you know, calmly taking this in on the television. While people kept coming in and pleading with him to do something. And some of the most powerful testimony was that when meadows was being pushed to get the president to do something, to call it off, there was the response, well, you know, you heard what he said. Essentially words to the effect of, he thinks pence deserves it. And so being able to get meadows on the record, we have this conversation second hand from others, being able to ask meadows about that conversation and others will be really useful to prosecutors. Let me play Cassidy Hutchinson who was on with ari melber Just A Little while ago. This is what she had to say and her initial reaction to meadows apparent cooperation. In my experience, mark was sort of all over the board in some ways. He would privately admit to me sometimes that the election, that we had lost the election, or sometimes he would privately admit to me that trump had said we had lost the election. But mark also was a key player in bringing in characters like Sidney Powell and like jenna ellis. In my experience, again, he would at times acknowledge what i have read in the abc report. The all over the place, you know, sort of status of mark meadows even came out in the January 6th Hearings where he sort of catatonic when the violence is happening, and says as you said, you know, he doesnt want to do anything. Trump doesnt want to do anything, and he thought pence deserved it. Cassidy hutchinson also says that mark meadows burned so many papers after the 2020 election that it left his office smoky and even prompted his wife to complain that his suits smelled like a bonfire. That to me sounds incredibly damning. Getting an Immunity Deal when you might have been burning evidence seems odd to me. Do you think that at some point he will be prosecuted either by georgia or by someone else . You know, i really cant say. I really dont know he is in georgia, i should say. Chameleon like, evade prosecution by cutting deals. That testimony from cassidy, as the former chair of the intel committee, was alarming to me at the time. Its alarming to me today. We were really never able to get to the bottom of what he was destroying. And i would hope that as a part of his cooperation, we get new insights on that. He might have important value, for example, in the maralago documents case. He might be able to shed light on how some of the documents got there. His conversations with the president , or warnings that were made to him and the president. But for the sake of national security, i hope that any deal would also require him to be truthful about that. Final point on that is, would it make sense to have a deal with somebody involved in that kind of conduct . Really depends on the value of their testimony, and presumably, if smith gave meadows immunity, it was either because it would be difficult to prosecute him or because the value of what he was getting was so significant, it outweighed the benefit of bringing him to justice. And of course, i misspoke, of course, he is already being prosecuted in georgia. Hes on the hook for that. Congressman adam schiff, thank you very much. Up next, former trump lawyer jenna ellis learns the high cost of doing trumps bidding as Michael Cohen can tell you, it never ends well. The reidout continues after this. [man struggles] i need some sleep. [man relieved] if you struggle with cpap, you should check out inspire. Inspire. Sleep apnea innovation. Learn more and view Important Safety Information at inspiresleep. Com today was another chapter in the Cautionary Tale of what happens when people with respectable careers decide to hitch their wagons to donald trump. First, in new york today, trumps former fixer Michael Cohen testified in trumps civil fraud trial. Trump was in the courtroom, the first time the two have come facetoface in five years. Cohen epitomizes the Cautionary Tale. He once said he would take a bullet for trump. What did that get him . Time behind bars to say nothing of the Death Threats for cooperating with authorities. Of course, cohen is hardly alone. The list of former Trump Lawyers with rap sheets and court dates is a mile long at this point. In a georgia courtroom today, one of trumps former campaign attorneys jenna ellis pleaded guilty in the states 2020 election interference rico case. She becomes the fourth georgia codefendant to take a deal. And the third trump lawyer to do so, following Sidney Powell and kenneth chesebro. In return for pleading guilty to one count of aiding and abetting false statements and writings, ellis will serve five years probation, pay a 5,000 fine, do100 hours of community service, write an Apology Letter to the people of georgia, and cooperate fully with prosecutors. That is likely where prosecutors see her value because she was an insider, part of Trumps Campaign legal team, and can speak to the conversations that took place. She was there when Rudy Giuliani she was there with Rudy Giuliani at that Infamous PressConference Following the 2020 election where hair dye was dripping down his face faster than they could spout out their wild factfree claims about widespread voter fraud. She traveled with giuliani to contested states to urge lawmakers to reject their own states votes. She also took it upon herself to write multiple mes claiming that mike pence had every right to refuse to count the electoral votes from certain states and she was a regular on cable news, pushing the big lie and other Conspiracy Theories surrounding the election, none of which were true, and she knew it. She admitted that earlier this year when she was censured by the Colorado State bar. She admitted again today and tried to claim it was she who had been duped. I relied on others including lawyers with many more years of experience than i to provide me with true and reliable information. What i did not do but should have done, your honor, was make sure the facts the other lawyers alleged to be true were in fact true. If i knew then what i know anyhow, i would have declined to represent trump in the post election challenges. Joining me now, Barbara Mcquade, professor at the university of michigan law school, and Charles Coleman jr. , former brooklyn prosecutor. Barb, lets start with the attempt by jenna ellis to essentially say she was listening to higher level lawyers. Jenna ellis was a member of what they called the elite strike force. Jenna ellis, Sidney Powell, and Rudy Giuliani. She presented herself as a constitutional scholar, which is how she would get booked on fox and other rightwing media, presenting herself as an expert. Can she now claim to be essentially someone who was duped . Well, i suppose anyone can claim that. My guess is in the recorded proffer that she provided to prosecutors, she provided a more Fulsome Admission of her own guilt and information that she can share with the Prosecution Team and to testify to at a trial. She got a good deal. Shes pleading guilty to a felony, but no prison time, and so i imagine that prosecutors first listened to that proffered testimony and then assessed its value before allowing her to plead guilty to this deal. So i imagine that she has information about Rudy Giuliani, maybe others on the team. And one thing that make her a little different from Sidney Powell, who trump himself referred to as, quote, crazy, you know, jenna ellis doesnt have that same baggage. She might be a more perhaps less well known, but maybe even more valuable cooperator than some of the others. We know, charles, she had been complaining of late that her legal bills were mounting and not being paid for by donald trump. So she did seem to be slipping. I dont think its super shocking she would plead out. But lets talk about the layers of falsehoods that went into her plea deal. Credibility this is the Washington Post. Lots of useful false things we offered up, having the effectf other false things look useful and make the original false things more useful still. A blizzard in a snow globe held in Donald Trumps hand. Shes claiming that she didnt know any better. She was just listening to other people. But she was the one writing memos saying what the Vice President of the United States could legally do, which were also crimes. Your thoughts on her value as a cooperating witness. Well, joy, in response to what you were talking about, the two worries we all need to be mindful of are due diligence. As an attorney, as someone advising a client in that position, she has a responsibility to make due diligence, and the fact that she didnt and she acknowledges she didnt pretty much does not give her any cover or leaves her with no cover around the notion that you try to move forward with this lie. You knew or should have known that it was a lie, and you did so anyway. So on those grounds, shes not going to have much sympathy when it comes to that. But on a larger scale, to your question, joy, the issue that she has is the same issue that everyone in this case as well as the other case, the similar case you referred to with Michael Cohen has, which is you have been so close to a criminal for so long that you yourself have also been now indicted or at some point done jail time, and it brings the question of your credibility as a witness into onto the stand or onto a prosecutors mind. As a former prosecutor, i can tell you were used to working with witnesses who arent perfect. Were used to working with witnesses who arent squeaky clean. As a defense attorney, what theyre going to try to do as best as possible is to say basically, hey, arent you trying to throw donald trump under the bus to save yourself . Arent you saying Something Different now than what you said before . Only because you were under danger of going to jail . And in the minds of a jury, that may be persuasive. That is something that prosecutors are going to have to deal with, albeit something we see normally, but something thats going to be a challenge. Barb, to take that point up with Michael Cohen, to switch to that case, he testified today. The answer that he would give is here are the documents. Prosecutors arent just taking the word of the person for it. They also have to provide Documentary Evidence of it. We now have learned that mark meadows has gotten an at least per abc news, not nbc news confirmed reporting. Mark meadows has actually taken gotten an Immunity Deal and has started talking. He is somebody who has told allegedly according to abc, he doesnt even believe the stuff in his own book which repeated the big lie. He is one of those people who has written and taken money to write a book saying one thing and is now telling prosecutors something else. But isnt he also going to have to document everything hes telling prosecutors to keep that deal . Yes, absolutely. So prosecutors want to do two things as charles said. One is to satisfy themselves that the witness is telling the truth. They ethically cannot sponsor untruthful testimony. So to do that, you look for corroboration. What matches up with what youre hearing from other witnesses. What documents do we have that can support or refute what the witness is saying. And the other thing they have to do is feel confident that this person can be a persuasive witness at trial. No doubt, he will be attacked on crossexamination in the ways that charles suggests. Undermining his credibility and suggesting he is just saying what the prosecution wants him to say so that he can get a good deal. And so the way prosecutors rebut that is to say things like, this isnt a person we chose to spend time with. This is a person donald trump chose to spend time with. And everything that he has said here today in court is supported by documents or other witnesses. So the value of someone like this is having that insider who can maybe explain some of the documents and what they mean or serve as a narrator and confirm tat the prosecutions theory is the right one. So theyre not just going to believe him on his word. Theyre going to insure that all of this is corroborated by other evidence. If you go back to the Michael Cohen case, everything he said, tish james used to win a big chunk of the case she has against donald trump. To come back to you for a second, charles, mark meadows lawyer has released a statement calling abcs reporting largely inaccurate. That doesnt mean that hes refuting that he has a deal. I am old enough to remember you telling me, sir, that the one person you would want to flip if you were involved in this case is him. If youre fani willis and youre reading that abc reporting, how are you looking at your dealings with the person youre prosecuting in your rico case, namely mark meadows . Well, it is going to make me think and try to find out as much of the contours as possible as to whether he is cooperating and to what extent and what information hes providing. I mean, mark meadows is not going to get an across the board deal with respect to all of the prosecutions hes facing so im going to move forward with the case i have, but i do want to try to get as much information, if i am able to, from prosecutors on the federal level to find out what type of information theyre giving, if any of that information is useful to me, and at the end of the day, its mark meadows decision if hes willing to cooperate with prosecutors in georgia. Its something that is going to be interesting to me, that im going to watch, but ultimately, its not going to stop me from moving forward with prosecuting him for the crimes i believe hes guilty of. Thank you, Barbara Mcquade and Charles Coleman jr. Up next on the reidout, turns out the third time was not the charm for house republicans. Tom emmer dropped out of the speaker race just hours after being nominated. Disgracefully, they are back to square one. Stay right there. The jennifers. Jen x. Jen y. And jen z. Each planning their future through the chase mobile app. Jen x is planning a summer in portugal with some help from j. P. Morgan wealth plan. Lets go whiskers. Jen y is working with a banker to budget for her birthday. You only turn 30 once. And jen z . Her credits golden. Hello new apartment. Three jens getting ahead with chase. Solutions that grow with you. One bank for now. For later. For life. Chase. Make more of whats yours. upbeat music [narrator] what if there was a hearing aid that could keep up with you . Notification Dings this is jabra enhance select. Its a Smart Hearing Solution that makes hearing aids more convenient and less expensive. It connects with your phone so you can stream calls and music. With jabra enhance selects premium package, better hearing doesnt have to start in a doctors office. 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Oh, ohhhh. House republicans met today to choose their third Speaker Designate in three weeks. Heres a look at how that started. The tribe has spoken. Time for you to go. Except after booting six candidates off the island, the republican version of survivor turned full on Lord Of The Flies real fast. Now that their ability to govern themselves has devolved into full blown anarchy and a private vote, the tribe chose majority whip tom emmer of minnesota as Speaker Designate number three. At least 26 members held out on emmer. Some expressed concern over his Voting Record on things like certifying the election, ukraine, and a slew of other reasons. I cant go along with putting one of the most moderate members of the entire republican conference in the speakers chair. That betrayed the conservative values i came here to fight for. How concerns are you about his vote on samesex marriage . Very concerned. Would you vote against him . Yes. Is there any way you would vote for him . No. He had issues with the former president. I think some of the comments he made in the past. Its causing him some problems. Just way too moderate and normal. His problems with the former president got worse when donald trump, who less than 24 hours earlier said he was staying out of the speaker debacle, Shanked Emmer on his fake twitter. Trump said emmer hadnt defended him enough, was totally out of touch with Republican Voters and voting for a, quote, Globalist Rino would be a tragedy. With a shot at 217 doa at that point, late today, emmer dropped his bid. Clearly, the third time is not the charm, and republicans are back to square one. Joining me now is nbc news capitol hill Correspondent Ali Vitali and tim miller, writer at large at the bullwort and an msnbc political analyst. Oh, ali. What in the fresh hell is going on in that building behind you . Reporter i have not left this hallway all day, joy. You live there now. Thats where you live. Reporter exactly your question, i live here. Forward my mail. Someone else go pay my mortgage because were all installed here and theyre staying for the rest of the night, can i add. Theyre supposed to vote in about 30 minutes for another balloting round to find another Speaker Designate because emmer only lasted in that role for about three hours before he pulled himself out of contention. So this is where we stand. And i have spent some time reporting over the course of the last few minutes with our colleague scott wong that there is now a push being floated by former Speaker Mccarthy to be reinstalled as Speaker Mccarthy alongside jim jordan as the assistant speaker. Two points to make here, and i do hear your laughter. Two points to make here. The first is one source who was i cant even continue with you. Let me finish. One source who was briefed on this idea told me that it would work like pelosi and Katherine Clark, speaker and assistant speaker. There is technically a precedent for this, but there is also very much an Office Reference here about dwight being the assistant to the regional manager and thats probably more apt. As your laughter suggests, this is probably not going to happen but its being floated and we just report the news here, joy. Tim, you want to be speaker . I mean, at this point, they just need somebody to do the job. Speaker designate is the title im going for going forward. Its a title without a job, apparently, so why not me . But i mean, im sorry. Im sorry. I didnt mean to laugh at your great reporter. Tim, so this is what were doing . Kevin mccarthy said i have a bright idea. Me, me, ill be speaker. Its the thing i always wanted. Just give it back to me. Is this ever going to end . Can ali go home at some point . I dont think ali is going to go home. She might end up being Speaker Designate as well. Why not my kevin . Hes gotten the most votes so far. Fair. He didnt have 217, but he had more votes than scalise and more votes than jordan and more votes than emmer. So you know, maybe they should go back to my kevin. Heres the problem, joy, and ali, in seriousness, the thing is the maga wing has control over this here. And these guys might not want to believe that, and maybe i think theyre hoping that one day that the Maga Weirdo Caucus was going to wake up and just going to be like, fine, well go with tom emmer. Just the same thing as kevin mccarthy, but why would they do that . They have, the Republican Voters are with the arsonists. You know, if this is a Dumpster Fire that has been started by matt gaetz, the Republican Voters are with the people lighting the fire in the dumpster, so until those people agree on someone, i guess i dont understand why they keep voting. They really should just get the 30 craziest members together and say, you guys give us a list of who you would accept, and then we can decide from that list. That would be my advice on how to move forward, or, i feel like its groundhog day, or take five of them to walk down the hall and any one of those five can be the speaker. I dont understand at this point why not one of them want to see a portrait of themselves, don bacon, kay granger, get your portrait. All you have to do is knock on Hakeem Jeffries door and bring three of your friends, maybe four. That could happen. But it doesnt seem like anybody wants to do that. Ali, lets go back to you since you do live there, so you know everybody there. Are there five republicans or are republicans behind the scenes having that conversation . Because it seems to me that the only people who can get anywhere have to have denied the election. So thats number one. You have to have denied the election. Are there some of the normies left who are talking about maybe cutting a deal with democrats and getting a speaker in place . It would still be a republican likely still very conservative, more conservative than most democrats would like, but at least there would be someone doing the job. Reporter so i entertained some Mccarthy Fan Fiction for you, and although it was rel reported by my colleague scott wong and i, i do think its extremely far fetched. I will now entertain some consensus government fan fiction for you and your audience, which is that in theory, thats very logical to have someone Cross Party Lines and go to Hakeem Jeffries door and say hey, lets do some things so this place just works again, but i dont think thats going to happen. I almost think that when we apply too much logic to this scenario, its where it gets really frustrating and where it doesnt work anymore. Because there is no logic that seems to be functioning behind this, joy and tim. I think were just querly in a place where republicans only want to do this by themselves, even the most frustrated and socalled moderate among them are still not willing to Cross Party Lines, and democrats even last week continued to say, Katherine Clark said on the floor when she was nominating Hakeem Jeffries yet again, she said take yes for an answer. Democrats are willing to empower speaker pro tem mchenry. That seemed to die on the vine among republicans, but there were democrats i talked to who were actually very behind it and would have happily both politically at home and pragmatically here in washington happily backed that as an idea. But within this republican conference, it again seems dead on arrival, so yeah, if were entertaining fan fic, sure, thats a world in which that happens, but i dont really see it here. Last word to you, tim. How does this end . Clearly, were getting close to a government shutdown. It seems there is part of the caucus that wants it this way. They dont want a House Of Representatives that functions so they cant Fund Anything and spend anything. How does this end . The three ways i see it ending really fast, one is the most normal republicans go along with somebody who is crazy but not quite as crazy as jim jordan. They folded before to donald trump, so why wouldnt they. The other is they actually bring something to the floor that the democrats could vote for. I think that might have actually worked for tom emmer which is why they didnt want to bring him to the floor. Democrats might have voted for him had they brought it to the floor. The other thing is the shutdown happening and eventually pressure. But thats three weeks, another three weeks from now, but if you get there, i think then maybe enough pressure happens that something cracks. I dont maybe theres another magical way i dont see, but that seems to be it to me. Well, option four is literally Lord Of The Flies. Google that and see how that went. Ali vitale and tim miller, god bless us everyone. Thank you both. Up next, for the first time were learning about what it was like for the freed hostages in captivity in gaza as the u. S. Advises israel to delay carrying out a Ground Invasion. Liberty mutual customized my Car Insurance and i saved hundreds. With the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. Oh. [dog barks] no its just a bunny only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. With fastsigns, create custom graphics that get tails and tongues wagging. Fastsigns. Make your statement. Best thing ive ever done. Thats what freddie told me. It was the best thing ive ever done, and really . Yes, without a doubt i dont have any anxiety about money anymore. Great people. Different people, thats for sure, and all of them had Different Reasons for getting a Reverse Mortgage, but you know what, they all felt the same about two things they all loved their home, and they all wanted to stay in that home. [announcer] if youre 62 or older and own your home, you could access your equity to improve your lifestyle. A reverse Mortgage Loan eliminates your monthly Mortgage Payments and puts taxfree cash in your pocket. Call the number on your screen. Why dont you call aag. And find out what a Reverse Mortgage can mean for you . [announcer] call right now to receive your free noobligation info kit. Call the number on your screen. Freed israeli hostage Yocheved Lifshitz described her kidnapping by hamas militants as hell. Here she is at a hospital in tel aviv alongside her daughter who provided translation into english. My mom is saying she was taken on the back of a motor bike with her body with her legs on one side and her head on the other side. That she was taken through the plowed fields with the men in front on one side and a man behind her. And that while she was being taken, she was hit by sticks, by shibob people. Until they reached the tunnels, they walked for a few kilometers on the wet ground. There are huge network of tunnels underneath. It looks like a spider web. Lifshitz was freed along with a second elderly woman, nurit cooper, on monday. Both of their husbands are still being held hostage in gaza. The situation in gaza remains dire, with the Health Care System on the verge of collapse. Aid workers will be forced to stop operations tomorrow because theyre running out of fuel. The United NationsChildrens Fund unicef says more than 400 children in the gaza strip are injured or killed every day due to the ongoing israeli bombing campaign. Nbc news reports Benjamin Netanyahu told troops today the Israeli Military is facing the next stage. The latest sign that a Ground Invasion is imminent. It is an escalation that several western leaders including french president emmanuel macron, are hoping to prevent. Today, Secretary Of StateAntony Blinken delivered a forceful defense of israel but said humanitarian pauses must be considered. He also said this about the need to condemn hamas october 7th attack on israeli civilians. We have to ask, indeed it must be asked, where is the outrage . Where is the revulsion . Where is the rejection . Where is the explicit condemnation of these horrors . No member of this council, no nation in this entire body could or would tolerate the slaughter of its people. Joining me now is ambassador dennis ross, counsellor and distinguished fellow at the Washington Institute for near east policy as well as former middle east envoy and a top Peace Negotiator in the administrations of george h. W. Bush and bill clinton. Thank you for being here. Let me let you respond to Antony Blinken. Because the u. S. Did stand alone in using its veto at the u. N. To stop a resolution that was calling for some sort of peace pause for humanitarian purposes. Where do we stand internationally . Because it does feel like a lot of the world is calling for Something Like a deal, a peace deal. Yeah, look, i think that many internationally are calling for it. I think what you saw from Secretary Blinken was a sense that the problem with the resolution that was presented was it provided no basis for the israelis ultimately to carry out selfdefense. The idea that i think what Secretary Blinken was trying to emphasize was where is the condemnation in this resolution of what hamas did . Where is the condemnation . How can he have a revolution that provides for a pause but does not provide for the israelis to provide selfdefense or call out hamas for what was done. I think the administration would have supported the resolution if there was that kind of balance in it. They thought that this was basically not balanced, and they want to remind everybody, yes, its happening in gaza right now is terrible. But lets also not allow our memories to forget what the horrors were that hamas did upon israelis. Of course, were reminded every day that there are 218 hostages being held. Let me play a little bit of what Martin Fletcher had to say. Hit two of his relatives, one of the first two hostages to be released. He talked about Yocheved Lifshitz, this famous photo of her shaking hands with one of her captors. This is what he said earlier today on with andrea mitchell. As happy as the familys, it is exactly what the Israeli Government does not want the world to see. For the israelis, they see this as a pr disaster. The first hostage to parolees goes on camera saying, actually, they treated me well and gave me medication. That is not good for the israel pr machine. With a keep one thing in mind, Yocheved Lifshitzs has been a snowy hostage in gaza. Mrs. Yocheved lifshitz was also critical of her own government. The Washington Post described how unprepared israel was for the october 7th attack. The idf did not ta seriously. Weerleft to fend for ouelves. The lack of knowledge in the idf severely affected us. They seemed unprepared for. She talked about the long series of tunnels that she was taken through, like a spider web, as she described it. What do you make of the situation that the Israeli Government is in right now. The bombing is creating a humanitarian disaster in gaza. Some of the hostages and their family are critical of the government, who they want to prioritize getting all the hostages back over bombing gaza, and yet, it seems that netanyahu is under pressure to conduct a very violent campaign. What do you make at the position that they find themselves in, the government there . Look, there is a duality here. You have a tension between objectives. One objective is clearly get the hostages out, and thats part of the reason why you have seen a delay in terms of carrying out a Ground Offensive into gaza. Another objective is to make sure that hamas does not emerge from this with some kind of ceasefire that leaves their Military Infrastructure largely intact, that leaves the Control Structure within gaza largely intact. It allows them to resume and rebuild the way that they have after the previous ceasefire. We cant forget, in 2014, there was a conflict that went on for 52 days, almost 3000 palestinians were killed at the time. There was mass destruction in gaza. There were calls to create reconstruction based on the militarization and preventing materials from going in and being diverted to hamas, and guess what, it took a little time for hamas to rebuild the tunnels, which she described as a network of tunnels. Dick about all the material that has got into that. Steel, cement, electric wiring, wood, this is an enormous undertaking, huge expense. All of that could have been used to rebuild impoverished gaza above ground. It wasnt. The aim of hamas continues to be to fight israel, not in a sense to care for their own people. Im so sorry, because you do know the players involved, so Exit Question to you, what do you make that the criticisms inside israel that all that you said is true, and despite that, be beaten and yahoo and some other members other government has been to uplift hamas and keep them in place, because it was a way to avoid getting to a real solution, which is a two State Solution . Look, i think there is even a duality on that side. I think the premise for netanyahu, the attitude has been to basically have limited conflicts with hamas every few years, less expensive than going back into gaza. Other ministers, they preferred hamas to the Palestinian Authority, because it looked that the Palestinian Authority had some appeal as a negotiating partner, were as, nobody would do hamass bidding as a trading partner. There will be a political reckoning in israel in some time, but there will also be a debate on the issue of what to do with the palestinians. That is coming, that you can count on. Hopefully, that resolution would actually help a lot of people for a better life and safer life. Ambassador dennis ross, thank you, well be right back. E right back uggles]. You should check out inspire. No mask. No hose. Just sleep. Learn more and view Important Safety Information at inspiresleep. Com cmon, were right there. Cmon baby. Learn more and view Important Safety Information its the only we need. Go, go, go, go ah Touchdown Baby touchdown are your neighbors watching the same game . Yeah, my 5g Home Internet delays the game a bit. But you get used to it. Try these. Theyre noise cancelling earmuffs. I stole them from an airport. Its always something with you, man. Great solid greek salad . Exactly dont delay the game with verizon or tmobile 5g before we go tonight, be Home Internet. Catch it on the xfinity 10g network. Sure to check out the read out blog. Jon jones takes republicans to task for trying to block aid to gaza and warns democrats about the arizona for the Senate Candidate kari lake, who is taking sydney powells place as trumps favorite Conspiracy Theories. All in with chris hayes thats right now. Right now. Tonight on all in. You teie