Transcripts For MSNBCW Velshi 20240703

All fronts, our reporters are on the ground in israel and lebanon this morning. To get the very latest on the state of war and the danger of the conflict expanding. And well tell you about the growing humanitarian disaster resulting from israels bombardment of gaza. Also talk about a way forward and out of this decades long conflict with an honest trial we, palestinian politician whos been at the Negotiating Table for peace before and former u. S. Deputy National Security adviser about the role america can and should play in trying to revive a enduring peace between israelis and palestinians. Then im gonna pull back the curtain and talk about how we govern this war including the complicated and difficult work of verifying images and facts from the frontlines, we begin this hour here in the Nations Capital with americas role in the world amid a growing leadership crisis, in our own house, a house that donald trump built. Velshi starts now. What good morning to, you saturday october the 20, for us im ali velshi, today marks two weeks since hamas executed the most deadly single day attack on israel in the nations history, setting off a brutal and deadly war seemingly unrelated, but critical to how that resulted toward the middle east may and its been 18 days since the United States house of representatives have had a properly Elected Speaker. From a trip to israel, President Biden addressed the nation thursday. Speaking about those suffering in the worst in ukraine, israel, and gaza. He spoke of americas place in the world. About the opportunity, really this necessity for the of American Leadership in unity right now. American leadership holds a world together keeping us, america safe. American values make us the partner that our nation want to work with bud. To put all that, risk for ukraine, to turn our backs on israel might just not worth it. Thats why tomorrow im gonna send to congress, a budget request, to fund americas National Security needs to support our critical partners, including israel and ukraine. I know we have our divisions at home, we have to get past them. We cant let pain partisan politics get in the way of responsibilities as a great nation. The House Cannot Pass that budget, that it is royal. That aid to ukraine because the house cannot do anything at all because House Republicans have not managed and 18 days, since ousting their own speaker, without a plan for what to do next to elect a replacement to lead that body. Its the first time in our nations history that the house representatives have been without an Elected Speaker and its not going well yesterday House Republican conference voted by speaker secret ballot, to drop tim jordan as their nominee for speaker after jordan failed on his third floor vote where he set the record for fewest votes received by major party for speaker. And a cultural violence that donald trump has nurtured in america for Republican Party, some of the republican members who publicly voted against jim jordan, the trump back choice, and now reported receiving Death Threats during phone calls and Text Messages just for opposing jordans candidacy. Even kevin mccarthy, possibly the least effective House Speaker in modern history, has expressed deep concern about the party in what he calls the crazy eight Chaos Members of the republican conference. Unfortunately what jim is known on longer gonna be the nominee, we have to go back to the Drawing Board the history the crazy eights, led by gaetz, the amount of damage theyve done to the party in the countrys instrumental ive never seen this amount of damage done by just a few, people for their own personalities for their own fear of whats going to happen. Really its astonishing to me were in a very bad position as a party. The house adjourned last night until monday with no clear plan to elect a speaker like last week with at least ten republicans considering a run from the job. Eight of whom we are Election Deniers they did not vote to approve the election. In line for the presidency, having denied the actual of that president but. That is the Republican Party we have right now one that is Self Cannibalizing as we speak. One allowing the chaos caucus to undermine congresss ability to do anything at all. As President Biden calls out america to show with strength and unity, as he calls on congress to show the world American Leadership. The Republican Party, the one that runs congress, is stuck in a downward spiral. Joining me, now American Enterprise institute and Contributing Editor at the atlantic and dr. Ray slot former historian of the u. S. House of representatives. Thank you both for being here, doctor, you had i havent talked. I would imagine that if i had a conversation with you, it would have been a neat part of history kind of conversation. Telling me something neat that i didnt know about congress. This is nothing, quirky or, neat about these at all. Can you try and give us some context to how unusual this, is and how serious this could be . Well, this is a spot as serious as i can get right now. Hasnt been this that since before the civil war. We had three Speaker Contests then, ballots went on forever. One of them went on 433 ballots over a two month period and several others that were lengthy in terms of that kind. And of course, the issue is the civil war. And the fact that the congress couldnt work very well the fact that the congress is reflecting the disorder thats coming to the whole nation, we know how to resolve that with the civil war and the 700,000 that people. So that is the crisis of the past now where the new one. You not, i think its been exactly 12 hours since we last spoke. Lets just talk about, that dr. Swab talks about the reflecting of the disorder and unity in the nation. I would say, i dont think were, there i dont think were in a civil war largely this is still a fight amongst republicans. Well it absolutely is, we should note here again that this is a feature not above the contemporary Publican Party was the only leader they had who managed to last without being forced out was dennis hester. He is imprisoned as a sexual predator and a groomer. Not a drag queen. The others were all forced out, going back 30 plus years in the republican problem, its a problem that even goes beyond that leadership and speakership. Its because we have a party thats basically generated into a cult. And governing is not a high priority many of these members the chaos Caucus Denialists Aukus are perfectly happy not to have a house, they have us towards a shutdown i think one other point we have a visit coming up this week from our closest ally, very close eye elias riley, at the Prime Minister anthony, he is supposed to address a joint session of the congress. That may not happen because of this chaos. Another embarrassment to the United States. What are the ways in which this resolves, i know theyve been imploded, one of these people theres a bit of a problem in the republican conference used, to be understood if you won the election in the conference then everyone would support you generally speaking that seems, that internal rule for republicans seems to have been broken but what in your sense, are the logical rule based ways to move forward . Theyre gonna have to decide on a candidates im reminded of what kurt said. Greatest, for you wake up one morning, and you find the country is run by your high school class. Certainly the Republican Congress is running like that right now we dodged a bullet with jim jordan out someone who is currently trying to impeach President Biden, it just doesnt make sense at all. These people have the power of the purse right now the president is trying to get a regency election legislation passed to aid in the israeli conflict. And also the ukraine, there is no way he can do that. Until you get a speaker. , norm it would be normal for people to say, this is a blustering political show. Hair on fire kind of discussion. But, to dr. Smocks point, there are a couple of wars going on at the moment. There are at least two or three opportunistic countries out there. Iran, north korea, and china. They may be looking to make trouble when america looks like its temporarily disabled. There are actual real things that need to get done. So again, dr. Schmuck laid out the civil war, 133 votes over a few months to have the speaker. Were not at civil war in america. But there is actually a National Security and Global Security component to this, the republican conference seems to be having trouble understanding. Let us not forget the other side of the capitol. Ray is at the, robert runs the Robert Byrd Center at shepard university. Look at what the senate has done, Senate Republicans have blocked our ambassador to the vital countries in the middle east. Not just israel but some of the other countries in the area. They are blocking tommy tougher ville, blocking the significant Military Leadership of the chief of Naval Operations for example. While we have battleships and others in the middle east. Weve just frozen norm. We, didnt it happen. Were gonna get back in a second, right lets expand on that point this is not just house dysfunction, theres a little bit of satisfaction not getting the headlines. With both parties in both houses, in such close vote situations we it is Tommy Tuberville is holding up unitary nominations. With two major wars going on in the world United States trying to figure out its way to deal with both of them. Its untenable, a senator would do that in a time like this. So the senate seems to be functioning, better than you in shape in the house is right now. But not much better. Because we still have the trump influence the greatest democrat that never got elected president of the United States. Still pulling a lot of strings in the Republican Party and that is not a good sign. We let me ask you about two ideas that have been floating out there, one is Patrick Mchenry who is the Acting Speaker at the moment. Some people have recommended extending him to January The 3rd so i want to ask you whether thats unprecedented and workable. And the other one is that if a handful of republicans voted president and every democrat the votes for hakim, jeffries which is whats happening. Hakeem jeffries could be the speaker. Has that kind of thing ever happened where a member of the other party thats not empowered become speaker. No no its ever happened, we did have to. Elections again before the civil war the speaker vote was decided by a pyrrolidine and of course again were dealing with this time when there were several republican parties trying to get started emerging. You had democrats you had nothings way two elections were decided by plurality was and then once they decided on a Plurality Candidate the whole house voted as a majority means so these are two unusual elections i dont see that happening in the situation because we it could be that they would get the most votes that they have been getting the most votes. Guys thanks very much, we apologize, norm we got you back just in time to thank you. Im not really worried norm, you and i seem to talk on the regular. Good to see you, both Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise institute. Former historian of the united house. U. S. House of representatives, and a former staffer at the house. Okay still ahead on velshi, page from our past shuttle diplomacy, playing a huge role in the Arab Israeli War, 50 years ago. Could it mean being played . Again at, home one of the most consequential trials of the century is now not happening. Not, one but two trump codefendants are taking plea deals in the Election Interference Case in georgia, this is velshi. S velshi jennifer the reason why golo customers have such long term success is because the golo plan takes a holistic approach to weight loss. We focus on real foods in the right balance so you get the results you want. The Release Supplement makes losing weight easy. 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With 30 grams of protein. Those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. Ahh, here, ill take that. Woo hoo ensure max protein 30 grams protein, one gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals, and nutrients for immune health. heres why you should switch from chrome to duckduckgo. Duckduckgo is a browser you download to your mobile and desktop devices. Unlike chrome, the Duckduckgo Browser has privacy builtin. It comes with a private alternative to google search, which doesn■t spy on your searches, and it blocks cookies and creepy ads. And theres no catch. Its free. We make money from ads, but they dont follow you around. As humanitarian conditions join the millions of people taking back their privacy by Downloading Duckduckgo On Mobile and desktop today. Continue to worsen in gaza, today the territory received its first delivery of potential lifesaving assistance. At least 28 trucks crossed the border into gaza from egypt earlier today. However the Medicine Supplies and canned goods are going to put a small dent in a rapidly growing humanitarian crisis, United Nations Officials Say at least 100 trucks per day are needed to support the millions living in gaza. Now along the same crossing more confusion for foreign nationals looking to leave gaza. While the u. S. Said it received information across england be open for foreigners, meeting foreigners in gaza at 10 am local time. That deadline came and went, with no update at the border for those who are anxious to leave. A gruesome two weeks since hamas surprise attack on israel on october 7th. Israeli Authorities Say more than 1400 people so far have died in israel. And in gaza, Palestinian Ministry of health says 4000, 300 people have been killed and according to the United Nations at least 1 Million People about half the entire population of gaza had been displaced from their homes. It was however some good news emerging from the conflict yesterday, two hostages a mother and daughter judith and natalie were released by hamas and taken to an Israeli Military base where they were reunited with family. The idf confirms that 210 people are still being held hostage by hamas. And it has informed families they have been kidnapped. Joining me now from tel aviv nbc news Foreign Correspondent kelly, kelly good morning to you. Good afternoon, where you. Are we know the gulf of many outside groups as well as United States and egypt for that crossing to be opened, continuously for a to come through. The gate was closed after they were let through. What is the story there . Do we know whether its gonna open again, more will get in . Yes it has been a rapidly changing situation unfortunately, change has not been what, its opening and closing, it only opened once for those 20 trucks this morning. Talking about this for days that is the only relief, that has gone in at this point. We are hearing from our teams both in egypt and on the ground in gaza there are rumors that that Border Crossing will reopen again tomorrow we dont know what time. For another 20 trucks to go through. None of that has been confirmed, the United Nations are pushing for more access all day, throughout the day, since that brief opening earlier today. To give you some perspective ali, what these 20 trucks are carrying enough water for about 22,000 people. From one day. There are more than 2 Million People in 2 Million People in gaza gaza who are who are struggling to find water. Struggling to find water its a major undertaking justifying drinking water. Every single day. We know the need is a mess, so whats the holdup . There are several possibilities. One of the main ones could be this issue with fuel. Israel does not want fuel going in. Fuel is not including. A spokesperson said this morning its not included in the shipment this morning. They dont want fuel getting into the hands of hamas to be used for weapons and other means for another possible problem is checking those trucks for any sort of contraband. So were still waiting to see what happens next. Kelly, i want to ask you on the other side of thing, north of you, where do things stand with the northern border with lebanon . Yes, so a major city in that part of israel has been ordered to evacuate the Israeli Government is bringing a lot of people out. The idf says get them out of harms way hezbollah Defense Forces did try to trade fire overnight and into the morning. It is continuing to simmer. In the north, it is not yet a full blown skirmish, i guess you could say. Its certainly not a new front of the war yet. Tensions are definitely rising in the north at this point, ali. Kelly, thank you as always for your excellent reporting. One day i will talk to you when youre not in a dangerous, and terrible situation. Thank you as always for being there for us. Kelly and tel aviv israel. Shuttled the policy played in major 50 years ago and could be back today. Were gonna talk about the significance of Secretary State Anthony Blinkens tour next. Next. In the aftermath of the Arab Israeli War in 1973, then Secretary Of State henry kissinger, played from capital to capital in the middle east. He helpedy agreements between israel, syria, it became known as shuttle diplomacy. A term that was coined by members of the press who tagged along during kissingers experience. Kissinger a president nixon had the opportunity to play a lead role in attempting to peacefully resolve that then, 25 your conflict, between israel and its arab neighbors, and the palestinians who had been displaced in their homes during the formation in 1948 with, no right to return. Now the United States finds itself in a familiar role in the middle east. Secretary state anthony blinken, shuttled in the region, visiting seven countries in just five days. In some cases, returning to the same places after having just been there. The primary goal of this diplomatic blitz was to prevent the israeli Hamas Conflict from becoming a catastrophe, which would result in the deaths of thousands of palestinian noncombatants, temper Global Support of israel, and Risk Spilling over into a regional crisis, and possibly, even a global war, given all the players involved. Discussions during those high stakes meetings established humanitarian aid corridor, to alleviate the suffering of palestinians and gaza. Working towards the release of american hostages held by hamas, and ensuring that isabella does not open a second front against israel. Secretary blinken, established a humanitarian gaza, which is facing a dire crisis due in part to the bombings and Evacuation Orders from israel. To a complete blockade on food, fuel, and medication, imposed following the deadly hamas attacks on october 7th. President bidens announced, earlier this week, with israel to permit the delivery of aid from egypt into gaza, and trucks containing food and medicine finally began entering the gaza strip from egypt today. Two weeks after the bombings began. Although aid groups described the 20 truck a delivery, as a drop in the ocean, President Biden has pledged 100 million in aid to gaza and the west bank. Meanwhile, egypt hosted a peace summit attended by several arab heads of state, the palestinian authority, mahmoud abbas, and representatives from the United States, china, russia, and a u p union, notably israel did not attend. While President Biden has a expressed a Wavering Support for israel, in his public statements and through military support, behind the scenes, hes been urging israel to exercise restraint, and not allow the rage that it feels in the wake of the october 7th attack to consume, in his words, and lead to bad long term decisions. During a stopover with reporters on his way back from israel, President Biden revealed that he had caution israel to avoid repeating the same mistakes made by the United States, in the aftermath of 9 11. Biden also disclosed that u. S. Military officials in their discussions with ucla counterparts, explored alternatives to a Ground Invasion, which could civilian casualties in gaza and midblue terry casualties for Israeli Soldiers involved. More on this, im joined by ben rhodes, former deputy under president barack obama. Ben is a contributor, and a post podcast save the world. Ben, its so hard to address the numerous parts of this unfolding crisis. There are people in our government, it seems, who are thinking beyond the immediate. Beyond todays opening of the rough of border and the 20 trucks and when, and the hundred trucks a day that theyre going to need. Even beyond trying to avoid a ground war, whether this can be made into an opportunity for some sort of durable peace between the israelis and the palestinians. Is there any sense of that being possible . Right now ali, whats more difficult a in think that when you talk about the shuttle of diplomacy, there is the short term in the long term issues. The short term issues are can we get hostages out . Can we get assistance across that Border Crossing . Can we send messages to iran and its proxies like hezbollah to stay out of this . Thats all happening. The long term is, what is the future for gaza . And i would think that in conversations, in the gulf whether a lot of resources, in egypt, where theres proximity to gaza, that there is a discussion about if we all dont like hamas, what is an alternative leadership structure, that we can build up that is good for the palestinians, good for peace, and it might avoid a spiral. The big question ill lay that you alluded to, whether or not there is a because all those short term initiatives, getting hostages out, getting aid in, all those become much more complicated in the aftermath with an Israeli Ground invasion, as to the risk of managing escalation so do the challenges of discussing what happens the day after. Right now, were in this period where everything is awaiting what the israeli decision is, with respect to an invasion of gaza. Right. And in the context here, is it israel on a daily basis finds a new way to say that agranovich is eminent. A correspondent, the two women are his relatives. He said when a shooting starts on the ground, the talking probably stops. But there was the son of a woman whos believed to be held hostage, whom i interviewed when i was in israel last week, who said to me, if there is a successful negotiation for any of the hostages, which we have seen now, he says i wonder if that sets the table, or a breakthrough of some sort . We have seen until yesterday, two weeks of nothing that looks remotely like a breakthrough. I dont want to be overly optimistic here, but does it tell us something, that the United States and qatar, in egypt were involved in a conversation that resulted in the release of just two hostages, but its more than weve had in the last two weeks . It tells you something. I think in diplomacy youre always looking for what we call, confidence building measures, can the party that youre negotiating with, even if you are negotiating through proxy. Even with a mess, im sure that the United States talking to qatar, and qatar talking thomas, can the party do something that it says its going to do . And in this case, its release the hostages. I would think that hamas says approach to this would be to potentially try to release american hostages. Or potentially to try to release women and children. To try to engender some goodwill. Tragically though, i think that theyre probably going to retain a good number of hostages, because they see that as some leverage. As you mentioned, ali, the moment a Ground Invasion begins. Were talking about potential large urban warfare. On the idf Going House To house, block to block, the capacity to negotiate that kind of release, it almost goes away. It becomes much more difficult. Thats why there is a degree of urgency back in that theres a potential Ground Invasion. Thus far, we dont know that there is anything that the palestinians can say, that the hamas can say, that the arab countries can say, that would affect israels decision, whether or not theyre gonna do that Ground Invasion. Right now the United States is really the only country that is consulting about these matters. Ultimately, theyre gonna make some decisions. All those arab leaders told him, to tell the israelis, that they would be disastrous if there is a Ground Invasion. It will be disastrous to palestinian people. It will be disastrous in terms of the regional situation. And in terms of potential uprisings within their own publics as well. So the u. S. Kind of becomes a conduit for that kind of messaging as well. Aaron david miller, who has worked for decades on this, you know him well, on iseli peace ps pointed out that in the end, it has suited at least Benjamin Netanyahu for a while, to have disconnected hamas and a palestinian authority, its a dividing conquerable. At this point, the former negotiating partners of israel, in that region of the world, the palestinian authority, is looking like a better bet. Is there some discussion, do you think, about either bringing. Reempowering the authority, or finding a Negotiating Party for Negotiating Peace . Yes. Im sure that has to be a part of the discussion in the long term decision, my view on this, ali is that youve had hamas entrenched in the gaza strip. Part because the israelis have not engaged in significant talks that would lead to developing state. Partly, because its become a corrupt Organization Led by very old man. Its left this huge vacuum. I think hamas is trying to fill that vacuum with its actions. I think right now the message the region has to be, if you dont like hamas, and none of those arab leaders have feelings the sympathy for hamas, but you do support palestinian aspirations, and you think this issue should be dealt with and not avoided, as it was being avoided and all these normalization bills, through arab and israeli states that cut hamas out. If you believe that, then you have to put your money where your mouth is. There are a lot of resources in the gulf that could fund us. In terms of building up an alternative leadership, and maybe that is through the palestinian authority, but it cant just be writing some checks to that seem to not really reach the palestinian people. It has to be a bottom up kind of effort. Israel is open to, as its end point, a desire for a palestinian state. Israel has to be open to this two and invested in it as well. Thats kind of long term thinking that needs to be done here. Now, the scale of this Ground Invasion matters, because if 2 Million People are displaced out of gaza, and theres more permanent palestinian refugees, then that window kind of closes its own accord to. Israel has a lot of agency here. Theres a very important issue there that there may be a window. It doesnt look like it. It looks like theres nothing but clouds above, but we may have an opportunity, and i hope people take it. And ben, as always, very grateful for your analysis. Ben is in an msnbc political computer. Still ahead, it is one of the most consequential trials of the century and its canceled. The very latest on the two plea deals taken this week by Donald Trumps codefendants in the Election Interference Case out of Fulton County georgia. Youre watching. Georgia youre watching. Youre watching. [sfx game controller] when occasional heartburn wont let you sleep. [sfx game controller] get fast relief with tums heartburn sleep support. Love food back and fall asleep faster. 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With two times more menthol per drop, and powerful vicks vapors to vaporize sore throat pain. Vicks vapocool drops. Vaporize sore throat pain. Conquer financial reports. Conquer 2000word essays. Conquer a 6 course menu. Rule over what you write with the smooth writing, longest lasting gel ink pen in america. Do you g2 . Ive been waiting for this moment for a long time. Two weeks. Ive been been sleeping for two weeks. Tonight and go to sleep good. I spoke with my daughter earlier today. She sounds very good. She looks very good. She was very happy. And she is waiting to come home. Im going to hug her and kiss her. Its going to be the best day of my life. That was the father of the Frida American hostage, natalie rotten, after hearing yesterday that his teen daughter, and his mother will be released two weeks after being kidnapped by hamas. Theyve read 210 families are still being held by hamas. A few dozen of those hostages are believed to be american. Bringing Home Hostages as one of the most difficult, and sensitive operations there is. Tomorrow morning, were gonna talk about how the process works. With a true expert. Ill be joined by christopher oleary, hes the former director of the Hostage Recovery for the United States government. A post he left only last month. Hes a former fbi special forces operator, and he was in charge of, as we were just explaining, for technical rescues of hostages, when negotiations fail. He joins us tomorrow morning, 10 am, eastern. Still to come, when your lawyers need, lawyers and then your lawyers plead guilty, integrated cooperated prosecutors who charge you, you might be squirming a bit. Coming up next, the latest on the two plea deals taken this week by Donald Trumps codefendants, in the Election Interference Case at a Fulton County, georgia. Interference case at a fulto county, georgia. Do you struggle with occasional nerve aches in your hands or feet . Try Nervive Nerve relief from the worlds number one nerve care company. Nervive contains ala to relieve nerve aches, and bcomplex vitamins to fortify healthy nerves. Try nervive. Perhaps understanding and, try nervive pain relieving rollon. Several new stories was the fact that donald trump had a pretty bad. Weak and thats not counting the fact that is handpicked choice for speaker of the house of representatives, jim jordan, lost. A lot. Trump lost a lot to this week. In georgia yesterday, the former trump campaign, Legal Advisor kenneth chesebro, the man thought to be the architect of the plan to overturn the election, struck a deal with Fulton County, prosecutors with connection to the Election Interference Case. They please lower your hand and quickly state your name. Kenneth john chesebro. How do you plead to count 15, filing false oppmann, and indictment to three . Guilty. Well at least now i know how to pronounce his name since ive heard him say it. As part of the Deal Chesbrough agreed to 100 hours of community service, 5000 dollar fine, and heres the important part, any continue to provide documents, and most concerningly if your name is donald trump, to testify in any further proceedings against his codefendants. This deal came a day after former trump attorney Sydney Powell, also reach a plea deal with in the case. How do you plead to the six counts of conspiracy to commit in intentional interference . Guilty. Both chesbrough and Power E Th Second and third of the 19 people indicted in Fulton County to strike deal with the ds office. All three have agreed to testify truthfully in the case. But Donald Trumps legal woes did not end in georgia. The judge presiding overs civil fraud case in new york is threatening to send the twice impeached former president to prison if he continues to violate a gag order. Judge arthur ender on, just find trump 5, 000, for posting untrue and disparaging post of the clerk on social media. Well discuss all this after a quick break with two legal minds,. Two legal minds, from chrome to duckduckgo. Duckduckgo is a browser you download to your mobile and desktop devices. Unlike chrome, the Duckduckgo Browser has privacy builtin. It comes with a private alternative to google search, which doesn■t spy on your searches, and it blocks cookies and creepy ads. And theres no catch. Its free. We make money from ads, but they dont follow you around. All right, im joined now join the millions of people taking back their privacy by Downloading Duckduckgo On Mobile and desktop today. By barb mcquade, former attorney for the district of michigan, and a analyst. Brett smith junior, at Emirates University in atlanta. Good morning to both of you. Thank you for being with us. Barbara, i dont have as much experience in covering racketeering cases, obviously, but ive covered a lot of economic cases. This seems to be textbook about the way these things go. You do work hard. Certainly at the front, and to get people to provide evidence, to people possibly higher up in the food chain. The interesting thing here is that Sydney Powell and kenneth chesebro, people who were pretty high up in the food chain of the 19 codefendants. Yeah, it was an interesting contrast with the way that fani willis charge this case, compared to the way jeff smith organized this case. The way that funny smith will listed it king pin to the lowest level person, and then work your way up the chain by flipping people. She started with scott hall, who flipped about the Coffee County election equipment tampering scheme. No doubt that likely has some effect on Sydney Powells decision to plead guilty. She pleads guilty, and then it seems quite likely that that had some effect on kenneth chesebs decision to plead guilty. And so, by doing this, they call it flipping witnesses. You work your way up the chain. Fani willis is doing it by the textbook and its working beautifully. None of the three codefendants who pled guilty so far are gonna face any prison time. A lot of people get frustrated by that, but thats actually kind of the pony of working this whole thing, you want in cases like this, you want the people in charge you, want to keep players here. Sure, and it is the case that they do face significant consequences. So five years of probation is not nothing. There is going to be a number of restrictions that are gonna be placed on them. And the violation of those restrictions could in fact result in incarceration. That said, yes, what induces someone to take a deal, is that theyre gonna get favorable, or more favorable treatment, if they would not plead guilty. In this case, hall, who pled guilty in september, i was in the same scheme as Sydney Powell, and then Sidney Powell has a relationship to many of the people who chesbrough has a relationship to, especially, giuliani. So we are getting closer and closer to the most significant target of all, the former president. Barbara, chesbrough is an unindicted Conspirator Coconspirator in the the jack smith indictment. Does the fact that hes pled guilty here have any impact on that . I dont know how that works. Could he become an indicted in spirit or . Would he be cooperating in that case and does any of that matter . I think he does, ali. I can imagine a lawyer for someone like kenneth chesebro, thinking were gonna plead guilty in this state case. And youre going to testify in the state case, knowing that that public testimony could be used against him in a federal case. As you say, is not yet indicted, but because hes an unindicted coconspirator, he certainly faces criminal exposure there. A savvy Criminal Attorney would reach out to jack smith, and how about a guilty plea, either we work out a deal of cooperation and no charges, or cooperation and some charge that the client will plead guilty to, that is something that he will accept, that is short of the full responsibility that we get if he was convicted and went to trial. We have to think that the success that fani willis has had in georgia, is going to have a Spillover Success for jack smith. While, lets say he doesnt, shes not part of the january six trial, is this information that is going to give Funny Wallace in the prosecutors, the documentation that is required to turn over, and the testimony, is any of that usable by jack smith, or will that have to be included separately and jack smiths prosecution . Well bear in mind that the way that this evidence is gonna be used, presumably, it is in the bigger trial. I suppose it might take place sometime next year. As a result, all of that testimony from the witness stand, and perhaps, the video that was taken of powell, where she revealed what she needed. That can come to light in a public way. Barbara, how worried should donald trump be about this . Were not yet, i dont know, but this is not been the full direct connection that some people would like to see to donald trump, but as fred said, its getting closer and closer. Obviously, folks like giuliani right now, are going to be feeling the pressure. I think the indictment alone should have been enough, because the prosecutor has to have not only probable cause, but evidence that she believes is sufficient to obtain a conviction to trial. Even before there were these guilty pleas, she had evidence that she believed was enough to convict them. Now she has even more. She has these three witnesses who will testify, up to the additional value of these three witnesses, who else gets flipped along the way . Kenneth chesebro is pretty valuable, because he is as we said, the architect of the collector scheme. He can perhaps, cause john eastman to flip. John eastman could get us right into that inner sanctum, the inner room with donald trump. The possible Domino Effect that we see here from these witnesses flipping, to the value of the chesbrough testimony alone, i think he should be very concerned. Obviously, scott hall, that was early because his trial was gonna be the later trial, but in this case, the time limit was now. This is a week of Sydney Powell, but not necessarily, this was their trial was gonna happen. The other trial is months away. Do you think were gonna see more of this on the way to that trial, as parker just alluded to . It wouldnt be shocking. Right . One of the things that a lot of these conversations are taking place behind closed doors. Its very worth noting that over 90 , well over 90 , of criminal cases that are going to plead guilty, so in some respects, its not shocking. That this is working the way it is, that on the eve of jury selection, we saw that these guilty pleas were coming forward. But, that said, given the states, the National Stakes to our democracy, seeing it take place is still extraordinarily significant. Sure you are both wonderful, thank you for joining us this morning, barbara is a former attorney, and an msnbc analysis. He is a at emory university. Still ahead, its been grueling to witness the violence between israel and hamas. War always is. Lives are on the line. Its absolutely critical that we get it right as journalists, and as human beings. Coming up with the help of nbcs social news gathering team, were gonna explain exactly how we vet the news and information that were getting. Another hour of velshi begins now. F velshi begin now. Good morning this is saturday october 21st. Here in the Nations Capital. With americans role in the growing