Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline 20240703

Pattern for one donald j. Trump. His incredibly reckless and cavaer handling of the ys most sensitive natiecurity secrets. Abc news was they first to report this, quote, former President Trump allegedly discussed potentially Sensitive Information about u. S. Nuclear submarines with a member of his maralago club. An Australian Bilonaire who allegedly sre the information with scores ofothers, including more tozen foreign officials. Several of his own employe a handful of journalists. That is according to sources familiar with the matter. The billionaire is named anthony pratt. You can see him right here in this 2018 photo from the sydney morning herald. Hes at maralago in the photo. He reportedly spoke to prosecutors and fbi agents about his conversation with the expresident. Heres what he told them, according to abc news. Quot pratt described how looking to make conversation with trump at a meeting at rlago in april 2021 he brought up the american submine fleet, which the two had dcued before. Pratt told trump he believed australia should start buying s submarines to the u. S. , to which an excited trump, leaning towards pratt as if to b discreet, then told pratt two pieces of information about u. S. Submarines. The supposed exact n of Nuclear Warheads they routinely carry exactly how close they supposedly can get to a Russian Submarine without being detected. Pratt reportedly described trumps remarks to at least 45 other people, including 6 journalists, 11 of his employees and 10 australian officials. Well, it is unclear if what trump said was true, investigators reportedly asked pratt not to repeat what trump told him. The episode could wind up playing a Critical Role in the classified documents case currently set to go to trial in may of 2024 with trump facing 40 Felony Counts related to retaining National Defense information and obstruction of justice. The New York Times reports this, mr. Pratts name does not pear in the indictment accusing trump of illegally holding onto nearly three dozen classified documents after he left office. And then conspireing with two of his aides at maralago to obstruct the governments attempts to get them back. But the account that trump discussed some of t countrys most sensitive Nuclear Secrets with him in a cavalier fashion could help prosecutors establish that the former president had a long habit of recklessly handling Classified Information. An examerican president discussing Nuclear Submarine secrets with a businessman at maralago is where we in real fashion begin the broadcast today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Abc news Chief Washington correspondent and the author of the upcoming brandnew book Tired Of Winning donald trump and the end of The Grand Old Party, john carl is with us. Former fbi counterintense agency pete struck, legal analyst andrew weissmann, a former top official with the justice department. This would be the proverbial cliche, if you pitched it as a netflix show, tossed out if it was the plot line of your first novel by an agent who said, this would never happen. Just take me through, one, what abcs reports, and, two, what in your assessment is the most significt piece of this. Well, i sigficant this is part of the documents investigation. This story, as far as we know, has nothing to do with an actual document. It gets to what is at the heart of that case, which is what you just spoke about, and that is how trump treated our nations most sensitive military secrets. Its hard to imagine secrets more sensitive than the capabilities of our nuclear arsenal. So, we know jack smith has spoken to this australian billionaire on two occasions. He has described how trump explained to him the details, at least what he purported to be the details on the capabilities of our nuclear subs, including that particularly sensitive piece of information, which is how close an American Nuclear sub can get to a russian sub without being detected. And whats remarkable to me, besides trump boasting and, you know, wanting to impress this australian billionaire with this tale is that in our reporting as soon as that meeting is over, literally minutes after the meeting is over, pratt is overheard telling others at maralago what trump had just told him. I think this is an underappreciated part of the story. That means that Special Counsel is talking to a maralago employee who not only is detailing what they witnessed, but also in our reporting told the Special Counsel that he was disturbed by the fact that this information had been shared and was now suddenly being talked about right there, you know, presumably on the patio at maralago. This is nothing about documents. Theres no suggestion he was waving around a document. But clearly, the Special Counsels prosecutors saw this as significant and directly relaid it to their case about trumps handling of our secrets. Not just our documents, but americas most sensitive secrets. I mean, jon karl, let me first ask you this, are you able to answer whether or not any submarines or personnel were endangered by trump sharing this information . Honestly, no. I mean, one thing that is clear is again, we dont know if this information that trump was relaying was accurate, but we do know that it so concerned the Special Counsel that when they spoke to anthony pratt, they asked him not to repeat the information. Now, that was a little late. He had already, as you detailed, shared it with some 45 people, including three former australian prime ministers. So, we dont know. We dont know. But clearly it was highly Sensitive Information. And it was widely disseminated. By the way, you know, pratt is somebody who became a member at maralago only after donald trump became president. And clearly, used that membership to good effect. Obviously, he went to a state dinner at the white house. He, you know trump, came and went to an event at a new factory his company was opening in ohio. So, you know, we dont know that this got into the wrong hands, but it certainly got into a lot of foreign hands, specifically australian hands. Well, i mean, i think youre getting at a question thats loomed over what we know about the maralago documents case since the beginning. I understand from some investigators and lawyers that its not central to prove motive but theres the big question, what was his motive for keeping this stuff . It seems your reporting offers a pretty good theory, business . The question, was he trying to make himself seem like a big shot, im the former president and i can tell you the most secret stuff, im going to lean in and tell you exactly what our nuclear subs do. What did he want out of pratt, who knows. It doesnt really necessarily matter what his motive was. What the Special Counsel has uncovered here is that the information was disseminated, and disseminated pretty widely. You know, we know the 45 people that pratt either spoke to about it or emailed about it, which also, by the way, suggests the Special Counsel had also got ahold of pratts emails. But, i mean, who did those people tell about it . Obviously, you have a chain effect. The stuff is now out there. So, is pratt, jon karl, a witness against trump in the trial . We dont know yet. He has as i mentioned, he has spoken to investigators twice, at least twice. I would think that its highly likely that he would be a witness in this trial. It seems this was a piece of information, a string of great interest to the Special Counsel. Jon, let me put you on the spot. I remember the day i remember where i was when National Security counsel staff started calling me after trump was in the oval with lavrov. What they were backgrounding me or telling me or trying to reassure the press was that they hadnt given him everything. That he had only compromised a portion of the known intel because they hadnt armed him with everything ahead of lavrov. To me that proves the recklessness with which trump handled Classified Information. Theres always been this sort of sham excuse structure, well, he can declassify anything. He didnt. They go through the declassification after. If the Special Counsel were to want to establish a years long pattern of trump disclosing State Secrets at a point where where he wasnt supposed to or it wasnt the plan or it hadnt been declassified in a manner to protect u. S. Sources and methods and u. S. Allies, sources and methods, the litany of witnesses is ten pages long. Is that under way . I mean, it seems they are focused, from everything i have seen, on the postpresidency period. But clearly by the way, you know, your conversation also illustrates another fact, which is early on at the time of that Oval Office Meeting with lavrov and with kislyak, the Russian Ambassador and those incredible photos, by the way, of that meeting which were released by the russians, because the russians had their photographer on board and there was no American Press in there, of course, or anything like that, that was at a time when, you know, trump had some pretty serious people that he had put in place, you know, in terms of running our intelligence agencies. By the time he got to year four, rick grinell was the acting director of national intelligence. Rick grinell a political operative troll for the trump wing of the Republican Party, suddenly has the sing the most important person in intelligence. Thats not somebody Holding Anything back from the president because thinks its go to be disseminated. Patel as Chief Of Staff to the secretary of defense, it became a very different Trump White House by the end. But i think there is another thing you get at here, nicolle, which is the documents are one thing. But trump was privy to information that was, he was the president of the United States. By definition, he had access to the most sensitive secrets. One thing ill give you another Sneak Preview on the book. On when donald trump came to washington for his inauguration in 2017, the day before he was sworn in, he was briefed, something thats never been disclosed before, but he was briefed on the Nuclear Football, which of course is something that would always be with him. But how it works, what the operation is. And im told he took great interest, you know, trump was not one that really liked to be briefed about much of anything. But on this, im told, he took great interest in everything he could find out about the Nuclear Football, how it works. Thats the thing that goes with the president , so you can, you know, launch a Nuclear Attack in an emergency. He took that knowledge with him. He may or may not have had documents related to any of that. But that is knowledge that he took with him when he left the white house. Jon karl, it had two of his favorite words in it, right, nuclear and football. Yes. What else can you tell us about his keen interest in his briefing about the Nuclear Football . It makes, again, some of the excuses that trumps conduct, and im thinking about his menacing tweets about kim jongun, he doesnt know what hes doing. It sounds like he knew exactly what he was capable of if he paid close attention on the Nuclear Football. I think it is the one area that trump was keenly focused on from the start. Its something about it that captured his imagination and he often spoke about his uncle at m. I. T. , nuclear physicist. He would lecture his own top Military Advisers and tell them, i know more about nuclear than you do. I know more about nuclear than anybody. Theres another scene that ive described in a previous book of trump having getting a briefing from the from his pentagon leadership about the pentagon budget. And he just gets off on a tangent about nukes. And at one point starts yelling at, you know, i think dunford was chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, mattis was secretary of defense. Hes yelling at them, saying i know more about nuclear than you do. I know more than you do. You know what, it is one thing he really did Pay Attention to. Not just that first briefing on the Nuclear Football, but he had a fascination about that, which may explain, in part, why he brought those documents to maralago. Andrew weissmann, there are a million things to say. While i peel my jaw off the table, tell me what you think jack smiths interest is in mr. Pratt. Sure. So, its useful to think of this in and of itself unrelated to the criminal case because theres and petes going to, im sure, talk to you because of what hes done in his career. Just the fact that the Intelligence Community, this is their worst nightmare. Weve been talking so much, as jonathan said, about documents being retrieved from maralago. But the information is still in someones head. And the Intelligence Community, as we know from what happened right after the search, is doing its own intelligence assessment. This is the nightmare scenario. And, you know, this is one piece of information. You can see it chaining out. That is theyre going to follow that to the ends of the earth. You cannot think of anything more serious you say theyre going to follow it to the ends of the earth as part of an intel Spill Assessment . Exactly. They need to know where any piece of information, and as pete knows very well, maralago was a honey pot. So, to sit there and say its only to the australians, its not. Theres many, many more people there, and thats the thing the Intel Community has got to be all over. But thats hard. Theyre going to be doing a total chain of custody, essentially. But then there is the criminal component. This is i want to make sure my view this is horrendous. It is so detrimental to our National Security, regardless if there ever was a criminal case. With respect to the criminal case, by the way, is, if all the reporting is accurate, it is a crime to give over information that is classified. That is National Defense information. It doesnt have to be document. Its enough if its the information. Doesnt have to be reafied in a piece of paper. There are many ways this can still be relevant to the trial, even though its not charged in the indictment. It certainly is going to be relevant to saying if donald trump is convicted because it is a more serious offense if you are actually disseminating the information than just the risk of dissemination. But its also relevant to so many things you were talking about, which is if donald trump were to say, this is a mistake or no harm, no foul, i was keeping it under lock and key, this is directly relevant to refute that. It goes to motive, goes to intent, absence of mistake, all ways the government can use this. Its not at all surprising, though, that you would not see this particular witnesss name in an indictment. You would rarely want to out that in an indictment. But it is evidence that could be very relevant to the case. Pete, i want to bring you in on this. And im just thinking of all the conversations ive had since the search at maralago with sue gordon. What andrew is getting at is, i think, the soulcrushing element of anyone whos worked in the intelligence agencies. Also, when you work in government, a skiff isnt its not just for looking at documents. Its for having any conversation about anything thats secret. We talked about some of these things in the context of what you do with paper, but, you know, to what jonathans reporting gets at, what andrew is talking about, its the knowledge and disseminating the knowledge with a businessman from australia that endangers the lives of intelligence agents, assets and allies. Nicolle, thats right. Look, there is no Search Warrant that is going to cover material which you have in your memory. Theres no Men In Black Magic Pen that erases knowledge. Whatever might be recovered documentary, in documentary form, that is never going to get to the things that trump will always carry around in his head. And, look, its very recent. Its current. Theres a reason joe biden when he became president said, the tradition of giving expresident s intelligence briefings, i am not going to do for donald trump because i see that as a threat. I see that as a security problem. I do want to touch a little bit investigatively, jonathan mentioned this a bit. Whats important about this conversation is much like the conversation about mark milley and iran war plans. It was a conversation that left after trump left the presidency. Legally, investigatively theres a huge deference. As much as he was a huge security risk, legally he can do that. Once hes left the presidency, he does not have the authority to continue talking about Classified Information. So, this is yet another postpresidency example, whether or not its chargeable, verbal and disclosure Classified Information can present particular challenges, but it certainly creates a pattern of activity and speaks to motive. From a National Security perspective, youre right, its potentially devastating. It is putting our entire Nuclear Triad at risk. The most sensitive component is our Nuclear Submarine force. By detailing that, he is putting soldiers at risk, our National Security at risk. Oh, by the way, every single ally in the world, not just the aus australians, every nation in the world who is watching this in the event of another trump administration, how many of them are going to want to share Sensitive Information with the United States of america . We havent even touched on the efforts and the money and the resources that russia and china and every hostile nation, undoubtedly, is putting into penetrating maralago. Millions of dollars over years to develop human sources, to develop technical sources. Apparently they can listen sitting on the balcony of the balance room of maralago to hear Someone Relay Classified Information that the expresident of the United States just shared with them. So, its horrible from a National Security perspective. It just demonstrates an absolute lack of understanding on the former president about or care for the National Security of the United States, for the men and women out there defending it. I just i dont know how many examples of this were going to need before the majority of the population says, enough, we cant ever have this man near a National Security matter, let alone Classified Information again. Pete, youre getting at so much of what is so central here. What jack smith charges in the iran document is something that was classified at the time and trump was no longer president. So, its a smoking gun in terms of proving all the elements of a crime of illegally retaining National Defense information. I have this sections. Im going to sneak in a break and play it for all of you on the other side. No ones going anywhere. When we come back, house speakers race is on. Donald trump is in the middle of it again. Jon karls new book features some extraordinary exclusive new reporting on the last time this happened, the last speakers race when Kevin Mccarthy struggled more than a dozen times. I think he got up to 15 times to win the vote. What donald trump, who is watching it all unfold from maralago, was actually plotting behind the scenes. Plus, what members of the Congressional Committee investigating the insurrection are warning about today about the next potential house speaker. What they say about jim jordans involvement and coverup around january 6th and why that should disqualify him from leading the gop. Cable news host on a major Cable Channel suggested the answer to our political divisions is not elections, not debate, but armed conflict. The very real State Of Emergency we all face because of comments like that. Deadline white house continues after a quick break. My dry eyes made me a burning, stinging, 5timesaday,. Makeup smearing drops user. 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But the same aipowered security that protects all of google also defends the systems running americas infrastructure. For these services. For the 336 million of us living here. announcer enough with the calorie counting, for the 336 million of us living here. Carb cutting, diet fatigue, and stress. Just taking one golo release capsule with three balanced meals a day has been clinically proven to repair metabolism, optimize insulin levels, and balance the hormones that make weight loss easy. Release works with your body, not against it, so you can put dieting behind you and go live your life. Head to golo. Com now to join the over 2 Million People who have found the right way to lose weight and get healthier with golo. Well, with milley, let me see that, ill show an example. He said that i wanted to attack iran. Isnt it amazing. Iav a big pile of papers. This thing just came up. , this was him. They presented me this. This is off the record. But they presented me this. This was him. This was the Defense Department and him. Wow. We looked at some. This was him. This wasnt done by me. This was him. Look. Orts of stuff, pages long. Wait a minute. Lets see here. Look at at these werthe papers. This was done by themilitary, given to me. I think we can probably right . Well have to well have to try to figure out declassify, right . Figure out see, as president i can declassify. The clip just drips with so many incriminating statements there that he knows hes hanging onto something thats still classified. It gets to the power of these postpresident ial spills and leaks of classified material. Right. You know, its certainly compelling because its in his voice in a intimate setting. Its a great recording. You can understand what hes saying. Again, all these events speak to sort of the question you raised earlier, why is he doing it . I think the reality is there are a variety of motives. One with the milley iran document its clear hes upset with him, trying to get back at him and he wields this as something he can use against other people. When you look at this recent the summary in the alleged information, that appears to me to be just, gee whiz, isnt this neat, im 8 years old and nuclear is interesting to me and i know more about it than anybody else and im going to show by disclosing this Classified Information and have some sort of Ego Gratification that i know all about it. So, i think there are business reasons he does it. I think there are political reasons that he keeps it. I think there are potentially just straight ego reasons that he maintains all of it. He has this cocktail of information. Its transparent to everybody. It is transparent to a trained russian intelligence officer. It is transparent to vladimir putin. It is transparent to xi. It is transparent to anybody trained in eliciting information how to get it out of donald trump. As National Security professional, that is what keeps all of us, in current and former lives, awake at night because he is such an easy mark. Were only aware of things that made it into the media. Im certain there are many, many other instances we dont know about and thats the sort of thing these Damage Assessments and Risk Assessments are ongoing, trying to figure out. I worry may never get a complete picture of what has happened. Yeah. I mean, jon, to your point, when you put rick grinell, characterized as a operational troll. We only have you because we got a peek at some extraordinary new reporting in your new book. I dont want to miss the chance to ask you about it. Let me read from the excerpt. An excerpt released today from the book Tired Of Winning donald trump and The Grand Old Party you said he plotted to be speaker in january. While trump was soaking up the speaker election drama from ralago, you write this, quote, on the seventh ballot republican representative matt gaetz stood up and announced his vote f speaker, donald john trump, was mildly amused until he saw the vote tally. The honorable donald j. Trump of florida has received one. Laughter could be heard in the house chamber. Gaetz realized it was embarrassing the expresident and stopped nominating him. The former president couldnt kick the idea that maybe he could win the speaker election. You add that trump, quote, told at least two people the real problem was that gaetz had n formally nominated him for speaker. If republicans realized he was a real candidate for speaker, trump thought, they would have overwhelmingly voted for him. The next time around, gaetz formally nominated trump for speaker. The result, one vote. I hope youre ready. Youre going to get the milley treatment. Theres nothing worse than revealing through meticulous Investigative Journalism that he was humiliated by the size of anything. Yeah. And this was an outright humiliation. It was in the 14th round. What i was told is that gaetz absolutely did that at trumps direction. One of my sources said trump proactively asked him, directly asked him, put my name in nomination. The other he made it clear and gaetz ran it by him before doing it. And then he got in that one vote, of course, was matt gaetz. That was the one vote he got. So now youre seeing, you know, trump once again, i know that this still stings, that experience. Most of us have forgotten trump got one vote back in january. So much has happened since. He has not forgotten that. And thats why suddenly you see him now reinserting himself into this race for speaker. Hes endorsing jim jordan, but hes also suggesting that he be willing to serve on a temporary basis as speaker and talking about how he will come up to capitol hill to help sort this thing all out next week. Well see if that really happens. I have my doubts. But, you know, an extraordinary scene. One other aspect of this, nicolle, is that for months people on the trump in the trump wing of the party, outside influencers, people like steve bannon had been pushing this idea that donald trump should be speaker of the house. Trump had no interest in it at all. Why would he want to be up in congress . Then as you saw the drama unfold, as one person said, you know, he saw this could be the greatest reality tv show, you know, Celebrity Apprentice with a big gavel, thats when he suddenly realized that this could be worth doing. And then again, one vote. It would be funny if it wasnt so sick and sad. I mean, there is a little legal problem, andrew weissmann, rule 26 of the current gop house rules prevents people under criminal indictment from serving in leadership. I mean, i guess they could at least change the rules for him. They did go along with the insurrection. I mean, how humiliating is that, that you would have a party that would change the rules to say its okay if youre under indictment that you can now be house speaker. They already have a George Santos problem. You got to let santos stay if you stay the rules, right . Yeah. I mean, this is i mean, its really unspeakable. But just to jonathans reporting, again assuming the accuracy, i think one thing, its important for people to understand is i think as you know from your governing experience, when you are in the Intelligence Community and you are given access to information that is top secret and top secret compartmented information, the kind of things we know are charged in the maralago documents case, that may be the case here. This level and this sense of responsibility that you have, i still remember the first time i was given that information in a skiff. I wish i didnt know it. I was so concerned about not inadvertently saying you want to unhear it. Exactly. The idea that you would be cavalier with information that its not just about the safety of our military, of people in the state department, of Assets Overseas who are working with the government. Its our safety. Theres so many things the government does that keeps us safe. Theres a reason for that level of classification. And its just to me, i cant get my head around the idea of somebody who receives that, who doesnt understand its significance and treat it accordingly. Like that level of disregard is just nothing i ever saw in the government. People are so careful and understand that and theyre in the government for that reason. But theres a line through all of it. His hatred of Wounded Soldiers is echoed to his disregard for the lives and security of the men and women of the intelligence agencies. Absolutely. Its all consistent. Completely. And its consistent with his filing yesterday saying that when youre essentially it was right out of nixon. It was, if youre president , can you do anything. I should be immune. This sense of all of these rules dont matter, but here the information is something that goes to protecting american safety. If youre running on an american first, you would think this would be one of the things that would be the most important thing to protect. So, its just very, very hard, i think, for anybody whos either in or has been in the Intelligence Community to understand the mindset. Yeah. Jonathan, were so glad you have a new book. Last word . You want to dribble out any other scooping . I just want to tell you theres a lot more in the book. Theres a lot more. So, i wanted to share this with you, nicolle, because its so directly relevant to whats going on now. But theres a lot more to come. I look forward to talking to you about it. We cant wait. Look, i think it would be important if he had gone to maralago and focused on his golf game, which i understand from decent sources isnt what it once was. But the fact hes the frontrunner for the republican nomination makes your reporting in betrayal and what we havent seen in the new book so central to the countrys National Security, and then secondarily, our political process. So, we feel lucky we get to talk to you, jon karl. Thank you so much. The new book is called Tired Of Winning, available for preorder right now. Pete, thank you. We cant have these conversations without your expertise. Thank you for being part of the first 37 minutes of the program. Andrew weissmann sticks around a little longer. Up next for us, the January 6th Select Committee Called One of the candidates to be the next Speaker A Material Witness who hid behind the expresident to keep what he knew about the deadly insurrection from the public. The dangers of a potential speaker jim jordan. Thats next. Rdan thats next. Tourists tourists that turn into scientists. Tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. That can be analyzed by ai in real time. So researchers can identify which areas are at risk. And help life underwater flourish. Okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. Yay woo hoo ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. 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[ bleep ]. Back up back up they were peaceful people. These were great people. The crowd was unbelievable. And i mention the word love. The love in the air, ive never seen anything like it. 33 months ago today, that day that you saw right there with your own eyes. A dark day in our countrys history. Made all the darker with the knowledge that some republicans were well aware of exactly what was going to happen. Chief among them, jim jordan, who defied Lawful Subpoenas from the january 6th select committee. And now, surise to exactly no one, hes Donald Trumps handpicked candidate to be speaker of the house. Liz cheney will take it from here. Jim jordan, if you think about the extent to which people have now said, well, it was speaker pelosis fault that Donald Trumps mob invaded the capitol, that the security wasnt sufficient enough. The person who knew, probably more than just jim, but there were a handful of people, of which he was the leader, who knew what donald trump had planned. Now, somebody needs to ask jim jordan, why didnt you report to the Capitol Police what you knew donald trump had planned . You were in those meetings at the white house . And if the republicans decide that jim jordan should be the speaker of the house, there would no longer be any possible way to argue that a group of elected republicans could be counted on to defend the constitution. The postconstitution gop, wow. Joining our coverage, democratic congressman zoe lofgren of california, who served alongside liz cheney, both members of the january 6th select committee. Thank you for being here. I remember this was an earnest effort that you and former congresswoman cheney made to understand what the republican members knew. It has always been liz cheneys assertion that jim jordan knows the most. Instead of impeding his campaign for the speakership, it seems to be fueling it. Well, we believe he knew a lot. Our letter to him outlined the meetings he went to at white house, the phone calls. We dont know the content because he blew us off. He wouldnt respond to our subpoena. But i think, as does liz, that he had a great deal of knowledge and involvement in the plot to overturn the constitution. I dont think hes a good choice to be speaker, someone with so little regard for our democracy and our constitution. Kevin mccarthy has been humiliated by his own caucus. Do you think and liz was equally interested in speaking to Kevin Mccarthy about what he knew. We know some of what he knew from a taperecording that the New York Times has released. He was so concerned about trump, he thought the 25th Amendment and impeachment were only inadequate because they were too slow, that the country needed to be rid of trump faster. Do you think theres any political Death Bed Confession from mccarthy . Well, i have no idea, but im not waiting for it. Is he a guy who has been driven by his ambition to be speaker, apparently, above every other thing. And now that much desired job is no longer his. I dont know what he will say or do, but i dont know that it matters other than he should confess what he did to undermine our democracy after january 6th. Right after, he told the truth, that the president was responsible, that it was a terrible thing, and then, of course, he went down to maralago and took a complete uturn and turned his back on our democracy. Congresswoman, i wonder if there are any conversations or do you think theres a possibility for any effort to reach out to the few sort of middle of the road, rational republicans who would be looking at what happened on january 6th or looking at donald trump about the new reporting about donald trump and their thinking, essentially enough is enough and theres a way to sort of Bring Congress back to some rationality and to have an alignment of interests here or whether you think that thats just not possible Going Forward . Well, i would hope its possible. I dont know if you saw that the democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries posted an Opinion Piece today, really explaining that it was his hope that we could have some bipartisan effort to move forward. That would be good for the country and i think its something that we would welcome. However, i think it needs to be done and organized in a coherent fashion, not random democrats contacting random republicans. It needs to be a very serious discussion between our leadership and those republicans who want to have a coalition government. Obviously, the democrats are open to that given mr. Jeffries piece this morning. Congresswoman, i know that you made some or shared some of what you know from your unique perch as investigators on the select committee about jim jordan. I wonder if you could share some of that with us. Let me make it a twopart question. He seems to be a clear coconspirator to the violence on january 6th. I mean, hes and i dont know theres anyone more central to everything that ensues and unfolds after the election. He says on january 3rd, quote, the ultimate date of significance is january 6th. This is how the process works. The ultimate arbitrator, the ultimate check and balance is the United States congress. And something rease done in an unconstitutional fashion, which happened in several of these states, we have a duty to step forward and have this debate and have this vote on the 6th. None of that was true. None of that was founded. He certainly had access to the information that bill barr developed as Attorney General the month before that, he had access to the losing lawsuits that Rudy Giuliani mounted by the 3rd, they had lost 60. What is the special risk of a speaker jim jordan . Well, he obviously was saying things before january 6th and up to it that were not true. Spinning that it was a stolen election when, clearly, it was not. The evidence was there. He had very many contacts that we were able to document, phone calls with th president , meetings with the president and the like. We dont know the substance of those phone calls and meetings. Because he refused to talk to us. So, you know, clearly he was involved, i think, its pretty obvious, with the attempt to overthrow the government. Whether he was, in fact, involved with the planning for violence, we cant know that without obtaining further information, which we were unable to do. Yeah. I mean, i guess the lies that inspires the violence and hes amplifying the lie in a tv public interview. Absolutely. The degree to the lie is why theyre all there carrying out acts of extreme brutal violence against Capitol Police officers. He was a big amplifier about lies about the election. Absolutely. The lies and whipping up the mob, he was part of that process. Whether he knew that the mob was armed and that the president would send them to the capitol, we dont know that. But its possible. Congresswoman zoe lofgren, thank you so much, again, for your investigative work on that committee and for spending time to talk to us about jim jordan. Were grateful. A quick break for us. Well be right back. 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And coverage for dental, vision, and hearing, all wrapped up into one convenient plan. Plus, theres a cap on your outofpocket costs humana has Large Networks of doctors, hospitals and specialists across 49 states. So, call or go online today and get your free decision guide. Humana a more human way to healthcare. That first time you take a step back and see everything youve accomplished. I made that. With your very own online store. I sold that. And you can manage it all in one place. I built this. And it was easy with godaddy. I am doing this. With a partner that puts you first. Start for free at godaddy. Com sell with 30 grams of protein. Those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. Ahh, here, ill take that. Woo hoo ensure max protein 30 grams protein, one gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals, and nutrients for immune health. joining our rollicking coverage of the days events on earth one and earth two, capitol hill correspondent garrett haake. Lets start with earth two. Is jim jordan the next speaker . Reporter i think hes got as good a shot as anybody. I would call him the prohibitive favorite right now. I think i would have said that even before the donald trump endorsement, although that certainly helps. In the time ive been covering capitol hill, ive seen him move from kind of the right fringe of the party to dead center on so many issues that House Republicans care about. I think theres a certain mood in the conference, at least among the folks who helped get rid of Kevin Mccarthy, that theyre going to be who they are. And that jordan may be as good of a person to embrace right now as anybody. Hes got a ton of other institutional problems. But if i were taking the vegas odds for it right now, id still put jim jordan as the favorite. So thats the sort of operational piece of how the hill works, theyre going to pick jordan. Lets deal with jordan now. Has he become more centrist or has the party become more wacky . The party has moved his direction, make no mistake. Jordans tactically learned how to get along to do the things he wants to do. His elevation as Judiciary Committee chairman, the things hes been able to go and explore wouldnt have worked if he were still the man on the outside in the freedom caucus. Thats just the operational part. In terms of every major policy issue or the general approach the Republican Party has toward governing, the rest of the party has moved towards him. He didnt try to become john boehner. The rest of the party tried to become jim jordan. Thats basically what were seeing in House Republican circles. Hes got some big flops. Weaponization committee has not been viewed as successful by the right. The Impeachment Proceeding which hes idealogically closely aligned with, zero evidence that joe biden did anything wrong. Thats good with them, they dont care . Reporter look, i dont know that they dont care, but i dont think any of them are going to admit it in any way it might reflect in their vote. For jordan, it might be just as well to distance himself from those things by becoming speaker and having other problems. Yes, i think the committee the only committee thats produced anything that looks like real evidence to anybody whos not a House Republican has been the ways and means committee, which has been sort of the committee thats gotten tax information, whistleblower information, that has generated interest outside of kind of the particular rightwing circles here. The Weaponization Committee in particular has not produced anything of substance. I dont know that jordan will be punished for that, though. I think thats seen as a broader symptom of the party than a jordanspecific problem. He and his staff are still widely regarded, especially by all these kind of young, new, wannabe House Freedom caucus members who tried to stylize themselves after him as they tried to come to congress in the first place. Is he the chair of the Weaponization Committee . Reporter he is. That role was kind of created as part of the remember, that was created as part of the negotiations to get Kevin Mccarthy to be speaker. That was a part of the wish list. And so he kind of absorbed that responsibility into Judiciary Committee. It has never been cheer where the responsibility for that committee ends and judiciary begins other than its got a cool name. It does. Garrett haake, its wonderful to see you. Its been a long week, i hope youre having a real friday. Thank you for spending the time with us. A quick last word on how abnormal this all is . Its shocking to me. Me, too. If you think about where we started the hour. Youd think the followup story about congress would be about the reaction in congress to the John Karl Reporting and people would be concerned about our National Security. Even years ago that might be the thing theyre trying not to respond for. Now theyre nominating the guy who was bad at what he thought he would be good at, weaponization. One of the hosts of fox news calling for civil war, because elections dont work. Well bring you that story next. D with naturally derived Plant Ingredients you love, and none of the stuff you dont. Our sulfatefree collections smell incredible. And leave your Hair Touchably soft and smooth. Herbal essences my dry eyes made me a burning, stinging, 5timesaday,. Makeup smearing drops user. I want another option thats not another drop. Tyrvaya. Its not another drop. Its the first and only nasal spray for dry eye. Tyrvaya treats the signs and symptoms of Dry Eye Disease fast by helping your body produce its own real tears. Common side effects include sneezing, cough, and throat and nose irritation. Relying only on drops . Not me. My own real tears are my relief. Ask your eye doctor about tyrvaya. Tourists tourists that turn into scientists. Tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. That can be analyzed by ai in real time. So researchers can identify which areas are at risk. And help life underwater flourish. We should all remember, democracies dont have to die at the end of a rifle. They can die when people are silent. When they fail to stand up or condemn threats to democracy. When people are willing to give away that which is most precious to them because they feel frustrated, disillusioned, tired, alienated, i get it. Though american dem brace remains the best path forward to prosperity, progress, fair play, equality. Democracy requires all of us in all the major parties. You matter. Hi again, everyone. Its the democracy, stupid. Might that be the next election . Its 5 00 in new york. That warning from the president about our democracy delivered by President Joe Biden just one week ago has been salient throughout all of our history, but it is particularly urgent in the context of todays raging politics. As we have seen a Political Party over the past several years led by a now four lifetimes indicted and twiceimpeached electoral loser of a guy take a Wrecking Ball to all of our democratic norms and tra digs. The gop has now become a party that views any compromise, any engagement, as pure evil. Views those across the idealogical aisle or former members of their own party, not just as individuals who see the world differently or believe in different policies, but as the sworn stated enemy. Distressed government institutions, just about all of them, have unprecedented threats against them. And in our very elections. The party believes that anything is justified as long as the members of that partys elite get to be the ones in power. Thats until they turn on them. So take what we heard on a rightwing Television Program on a rightwing network last night during a discussion about crime in americas cities. Heres what fox news greg gutfeld said. It leaves you with, you need to make war to bring peace. Because you have a side that cannot change because then that means an admission that their beliefs have been corrupt all the time. So in a way, you have to force them to surrender. Or we could make love, not war . I tried that once. We had an election. I had to go to a doctor. Election. Elections still work, we know they dont work. Look what we have. Look what we have. We had a moderate president , and we have crime exploding everywhere. Every facet of society is in peril and in chaos because our elections dont matter. No, elections do matter. We didnt need to go to war for it we go to the Election Booth and vote the people out i wish i was as naive as you, harold. Elections dont work. Before you dismiss that as a silly opinion from a silly anchor on a silly network, its a lot more than that. A lot of people watch them. A whole lot. Listen to how a scholar on authoritarian leaders and practices, ruth bengiot, responded. This is a national emergency. I have always sai t end game of Election Denialism is to persuade elections are no longer desirable or necear republican media and politicians actively urge violence as a solution to solving differences and dealing with political transitions. Analysis that was underscored by reporting from philip bump in the washington post. Gutfeld elds argument is seeing joe bidens victory not as part of americas lurching path forward, but as a rupture. Voting against biden wouldnt work, his argument offers instead you need to, quote, force your opponents to surrender, end quote. Which brings us back to a conversation we have on this program in this hour often, the foundations of american democracy under attack by the right. And those foundations will only be as strong as the beliefs in them remain. What happens when people stop believing that their voice or their vote matters . When those in power or those on television tell them that their voices and their votes do not count because elections dont work . We saw a frightening glimpse of what happens when that rhetoric seeps in, right . We saw on january 6th. Watched it. With more comments like Greg Gutfields last night, What Happens Next . Some of our favorite report effort, cofounder and Executive Director of protect democracy, ian bassen is back with us. Former acting u. S. Solicitor general neil cotiel is here. Ian, i start with you because youve said the single most haunting thing to me in eight years of very haunting reporting and analysis. And that is if trump is reelected, he wont leave. Did we lose ian . There you are. It feels that what is revealing itself is that doesnt happen in a vacuum, that what has to happen is people like Greg Gutfield have to tell thats a giant audience on that program that they have build as an Ensemble Program you have to tell your biggest audience at that network that elections dont work, and thats why trump, if he becomes president again, never leaves . You know, nicole, i spent time in 2011 working with the students in syria who were peacefully protesting for freedom and democracy as their movement was crushed and descended into war. I watched them as their homes were destroyed, their cities were destroyed, their relatives, their loved ones killed. Anyone Flippantly Advocating For War has no idea of its horrors. The last thing that anyone should ever want is war. Its why no matter how frustrating democracy can be, no matter how much it is imperfect and slow, the answer is never to throw it out in favor of someone who falsely promises that he alone can fix it. Thats the cheap fix that isnt even a fix, and it comes with a brutal hangover. Just ask the people of venezuela. The people of nicaragua. The people of russia. All of whom fell just ask the people of venezuela. The people of nicaragua. The people of russia. All of Whom Fellstrongman who said they alone could fix it, all of now are suffering the consequences of poverty and war. We just reject that direction, we must do the hard thing. Which is not throwing democracy out, but improving it. Because it is the only path forward to prosperity for the country and our children. I want to be careful to make clear we dont need to improve it standing amid the entire nation. It is only amid a segment of the right. And this is i think usually the mostwatched program on the mostwatched network on the right. How do you remove the Incentive Structure for Conservative Media to advocate antidemocratic practices and to say things like, quote, elections dont work, quote, you need to make war to bring peace . The irony of a network that typically advocates against a hot war in ukraine to bring peace to a democracy is advocating for a hot war in america to help end it. You know, there was a joke in the middle of that segment that you showed that was quickly dismissed. Its telling that they quickly dismissed the joke, because theres a lot of truth of the joke in the middle. Ruth bendiot talks about national emergency. In moments of emergency, societies can have two reactions. Society can turn into everyone for themselves. Everyone turns against each other in a moment of fear and scarcity. It descends into even greater Chaos Disorder and suffering. But theres another way that people respond in emergencies, which is they come together. Im a new yorker. Ive been through blackouts in new york, ive been through anyone 11 in new york, and they are some of the moments that show what a community can be in a moment of real challenge, because in all of those moments in new york, Society Comes together. People help each other. They give car rides to each other, shop for groceries for each other. The best of them comes out. That joke in the middle, try love not war, right . There is a reason why people have why thats that thought came to mind. Because what donald trump and Greg Gutfield are offering is a vision of division and hatred and disorder and people turning on each other. And that sells. Bus you know what else sells . This is true if you look at the data on social media. Inspiration, hope, and the ability of people coming together. Thats what built this country. I think the answer to your question of, how do you change the incentives . We respond to it by rising above it and showing what americans do in a crisis, which is, we dont go for the snake oil of, i alone can fix it, leaning into hate. We go for what we want for our children, the world we want them to live in, a world where we look out for each other. That is a very, very powerful force as well, and we need to lean into it. Its been rejected. The show comes out of new york, not a place thats unaware of what happened on 9 11. Recently in new york the city came together when flash floods erupted last friday. I was at a dropoff in the city, suddenly the phone started beeping. It is still that city. Youre back to the culture that was revealed through dominion, the known falsity of what theyre saying. When he says on the air, voting doesnt work what hes saying is, i keep losing, my side keeps losing. You can kind of draw direct connection from what he said on the air to a growing movement on the right of intellectuals who say, if democracy leaves us on the losing side, its not worth it. Senator mike lee said it. There are people on the right who are trying to tell their own team, were losing for a reason, lets change our policies or ideas, appeal to new voters. A larger contingent on the right is saying, were not going to compromise, were not going to change what were saying, but we still want power. What hes doing, intentionally or not, is Trading A Permission Structure by saying, well, those people in philly are just as bad as the january 6th rioters so its okay to riot. Scary. I mean, neil, we try to cover this holistically. But the way the news unfurls is often theres an attack or smear on the rule of law and we focus intensely on that. Or there is an effort to suppress the right to vote in georgia, so offensive that Major League Baseball moves their allstar game out of georgia, we focus on that. Or there are these calls for violence or efforts to say january 6th was just a tourist visit. And we do that because on earth one we follow the facts, we follow the great reporting. But on the right, it isnt theyre not all separate occurrences and theyre not accidents. On the right, theyre trying to suppress the right to vote for the reasons nick just articulated. They know theyre not winning on their ideas. They know that abortion is now a 70 30 issue, gun safety is an 80 20 issue, voting the popular. 80 of all americans think it should be easier to vote, not harder. To them, the Permission Structure for violence, youve got polls. Democrats dont think Political Violence is a good idea, only republicans, people inclined to consume Conservative Media, upward of 50 say if necessary, violence is okay. Youve only got the conduct on one of the two sides. And i wonder what you think about the inability to mount a defense to protect our institutions from it . So first of all, i just want to congratulate my friend ian on his Macarthur Genius Grant Award today this week. All those who work with him knows hes a genius, now the world knows it. Its really wonderful to see. I think ians work, nicole, is what answers your question. So when you see people like this guy gutfield say these words, these abhorrent words, these unamerican words, these words that are such a betrayal of everything our constitution and our tradition is about, i think they reflect the fact that the Republican Party now and fox news knows they cant win at the ballot box. Even with gerrymandering, which they use in all sorts of ways to try and entrench republicans. And they cant win even with the electoral college, which so slants things in their favor, they still cant win at the ballot box. So its not surprising in a way that they run to attacking the most fundamental tenet of our values, which is elections. And you can see it all over. You can see it with the fake elector plot. You can see it with what trump did on january 6th and before that. Its all about basically an attempt to distract from the fact that they cant win. And so i do think ian brought up the solution, the solution is hope, its celebration, its trying to improve those parts of democracy that arent. But the Republican Party is one thats trying to take your votes away. And they do it in small ways, too, like at the Supreme Court when they want to take the abortion drug, for example, away from women through using the court system. Where they want to take Affirmative Action away. They want to take the Voting Rights act away. Take all of this off the table in a democracy. Its all part of one big piece, which is to take stuff away from the American Public because theyre afraid of the American Publics vote. I guess, ian, i accept your Expert Answer for the solution. But as a former republican operative, im concerned about the message Delivery System being deployed by everyone on the side of angels. Everyone wants to continue to live in a democracy. I wonder how you would rate the effectiveness of the positive messages against the effectiveness fox news covers crime in the cities all day, every day. Why . To make people afraid. What do they do when theyre afraid . Buy more guns. What do they do, go to rallies protesting against migrants i mean, its all so stitched together. And i worry that hope and love isnt winning. I mean, look. I dont want to downplay the seriousness of the danger youve identified. As you know, ive come on this show multiple times to talk about just how serious the threat is, which we all here agree. But its not all lost. The American People responded in 2020 by electing a moderate contrary to what greg gutfeld was saying sensitive person to put the house in order. I do trust the American People generally see donald trump as a hate moneyer and charlatan and likely career criminal. But some may think, and this is what fox is delivering, but Grocery Prices used to be lower. Heres the thing. Donald trump had no more to do with the price of groceries than he had control over the rain that fell on his inauguration. He has no plans or ability to make eggs any cheaper in the future, either. He wasnt a good businessman, as the court has now found. He was a cheater and a fraud. What he can do is he can turn is against each other, take away our freedoms, produce a level of violence and division and hate like weve never seen. Thats why i go back to playing on a field where hate and fear are what are dominating kind of our emotions, is ceding territory to authoritarianism. The response, as neil alluded to, is meet that with i think what President Biden said in the opening clip that you shared. What our shared vision is for a more prosperous future . Democracy and leaning into it. Its amazing, nick that you dont have any voices it used to not an partisan statement. You dont have any prodemocracy voices rearing their heads. You used to have dissidents on that network. They used to align themselves with dissidents in north korea, dissidents in russia, dissidents in rome. They now align themselves with trump. His closest friends on The World Stage were the brutal, murderous dictator in north korea and the thug american adversary vladimir putin. The realignment around the single question of democracy and i guess the extended question of Political Violence and all the things that go into it, the celebration of kyle rittenhouse. All of that. Some people think fox has always been awful. Yes, and its much scarier now. And the glory of american democracy, from the founding, has been Majority Rules and peoples voice matters. I do think there is a connection between the illiterality on the far right creeping into the mainstream and the next of some on the right theyre attracted to pseudo strong men who say, we will actually use Government Power to rig the system a little bit in favor of our politics, lets do that, well still have a pseudo democracy. I think they imagine that is just because it produces the outcomes that they want. That is not american democracy, that isnt our tradition. And look, whats happening in philadelphia, the voters of philadelphia have twice elected krasner as d. A. , promising a more progressive approach to criminal justice. Its not for a person in new york to say theyre wrong. They voted for that. Thats their decision. Thats democracy. So voting did work for the vast majority of voters in that city who want policies like that. It doesnt work in the sense that if youre on the other side of that question, you lost. That is part of what happens here in this country. Neil, you get the last word. Yeah, just i think mics exactly right to think about the foreign implications. I was in london last week with leaders of countries, talking about basically what is America Standing for today in the world . If were going to criticize authoritarians and strong men other places, we have to do the same thing here. The message thats being sent by this kind of rhetoric by gutfield and the like is such a betrayal of Everything America Stands for, not just internally, but on The World Stage. Its deeply, deeply worrisome. We should note he did get some pushback on his own panel. Harold pushing back. I think the other guys name is jesse something who talked about making love, not war. So well give them that. Ian, i want to add, my congratulations for your important work. Thank you for sharing your wisdom here with us. Nick, thank you for starting us off. Neal sticks around a little bit longer. Day five of Attorney General Letitia James Civil Fraud Trial against the disgraced expresident s businesses. Today, another big defeat for trump that even his legal team cant spin as a victory. A huge victory for democracy after a federal court orders alabama to adopt a second Congressional District in which black voters will have a real opportunity at representation. Why that decision is reverberating all around the south today and what it could mean for democrats in their efforts to win control of the house next year. The inside story of ron desantis Cruel And Unusual stunt to send migrants to Marthas Vineyard after a quick break. Hi, my name is damion clark. If you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that youll definitely want to hear. Depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana Medicare Advantage dualeligible Special Needs plan. 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Automatic sashimi earn cash back that automatically adjusts to how you spend with the citi custom cash® card. [mind blown explosion noise] heres why you should switch from chrome to duckduckgo. Duckduckgo is a browser you download to your mobile and desktop devices. Unlike chrome, the Duckduckgo Browser has privacy builtin. It comes with a private alternative to google search, which doesn■t spy on your searches, and it blocks cookies and creepy ads. And theres no catch. Its free. We make money from ads, but they dont follow you around. Join the millions of people taking back their privacy by Downloading Duckduckgo On Mobile and desktop today. A ruling rejecting the disgraced expresident s latest attempt to delay and dismiss the many cases and allegations against him. An Appeals Court denied trumps request for a stay in his ongoing Civil Fraud Trial in new york which wrapped its first week with aramatic ending from the latest witness to take the stand. New York Attorney general Letitia James had opposed the bid to stay the trial but was amenable to another ruling that handed trump a small and temporary win. The Appeals Court issued a temporary pause in the dissolving of all of trumps businesses as the trial continues next week with another round of key witnesses. Joining our coverage, msnbc legal analyst alyssa ruben, neal stays with us as well. Lisa, its not rest surprising its so dramatic, but it has been a very dramatic week. It has been a dramatic week. Not all the drama was necessarily around the courtroom. Was all legal, right yeah. Most of the drama was outside the courtroom. But if you are a legal observer, as i am, and a former lawyer, you understood that some of what appeared to be really dry testimony was actually itself very dramatic. Thats how i would characterize the last two days with jeff mac connie, the former Trump Organization controller, now retired. He was the principal Point Of Contact with the accountants for the preparation of the Financial Statements that are at issue in this case. He was also the person that largely assigned values to properties, of course as directed by allen weisselberg, who we assume was also directed by former President Trump. And in that testimony, we got a bunch of really damning admissions about the most egregious examples of fraud. I think the best was today when they were talking about the golf courses. The statement of financial conditions says explicitly, no amount of brand value is baked into the price of those golf courses. And yet each of those golf courses, as they were valued, was assigned a 15 to 30 premium for what . Brand value, according to the work papers. Mcconnie had to admit on the stand, he did that, that was him, and did the statement of financial conditions say they did not do that . Indeed, it did. Your point about the drama in and out of the courtroom, i mean, trumps antics outside the courtroom became central to the drama inside the courtroom when he smeared one of the judges clerks and has the limited gag order on his conduct. How did that seem to further enrage and frustrate trump as the week went on . I think trump was so beyond enraged when he finally left. Because he had to see Donald Bender on the stand, a person who worked for the Trump Organization for decades, essentially dismantle what the chief lie is behind trumps business empire, between that and judge engorons ruling trump was as angry as i think ive ever seen him on camera or off. As you and i have discussed, whats really funny about that is the man is facing four criminal indictments. He could go to jail, but not from this trial. Hes facing a 30count indictment in florida on revealing our nations most valuable National Security information. We now know that he has shared some of that National Security information just across the table, casually, with visitors at maralago. That doesnt appear to scare him because he can campaign that away by becoming president again. This case, however, is the one of the five i do consider it five. Four criminal indictments and this civil fraud case. I think really scares him the most because if he gets elected president again, theres nothing he can do about it. He cant wish Letitia James himself. He cant pardon himself. He cant direct his department of justice to make her stop. Its not a prosecution. Theres no opinions saying you cant have a civil case against a sitting president , bill clinton learned that the hard way, now we know that too. Neal, there is something that is so easy to understand, too, about whats going on. And that cuts against his commitment to making everything politics, right . He lied about the size of an apartment. Those are problems and facts that anyone who rents in new york city, as i do, can solve with a tape measure. There are other things about this case that are easy to understand. On the question of fraud, its over, lights out, guilty of fraud. And i understand that isnt a criminal description, but hes been found liable for fraud. What do you make of where this trial stands at the end of week one . I think in a very, very bad place for donald trump. And i think the whole reason he attended in person is he wanted the narrative surrounding the trial to be about his presence there rather than the facts of the case. And now that hes left and the trials under way, i think were starting to see why he preferred that the media not report on the details of the case. His defense is one basic thing which is, well, real estate valuations fluctuate all the time. But they dont fluctuate like this. I mean, you dont say the apartment in which you live is 33,000 square feet when its 10,000 square feet. Its also interesting. The other big problem with his defense is, always the valuations cut in his favor. If they right. If they fluctuated up and down and so on, it would be one thing. But the fact is, theyre always one directional in order to lower his tax bill or in order to maximize his assets when hes seeking financing. That, i think, is why hes basically dead to rights in this case, as far as i can tell. Ive seen no viable defense. So i do agree with lisa. This is a real Clear And Present Danger to donald trump. I would say, however, the Georgia State prosecution and the New York State prosecution are also ones in which, even if he were elected or some other republican were elected president in 24, they couldnt get rid of those either. Were so grateful and lucky to have you covering this for us. To be continued . To be continued, back on tuesday. Well be calling on you. Its hard, we dont always get you because sometimes youre in the courtroom. Always great to talk to you. Happy to be here. Neal, thank you for being here and remembering in your kind and generous way to congratulate our friend ian on his very important award, were grateful to you for that. After defying the courts and disenfranchising its voters, the state of alabama has been forced to adopt a second Congressional District where black voters will have opportunity to elect a candidate of their choice. Why that ruling might be the start even bigger. Bigger. A lemm shop in florida, so i can feel and see that my lines have gotten deeper just from a year out in the sun. Im still marie and i got botox® cosmetic. I did not want a dramatic change. I wanted something subtle. And im really, really happy with the results. Its still me, but with fewer lines. Botox® cosmetic is fda approved to temporarily make frown lines, crows feet, and Forehead Lines look better. The effects of botox® cosmetic may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. 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Com in a notable and rare win for democracy, a panel of federal judges have picked a congressional map in alabama that maintains one majority black district in the state and adds a Second Near Majority Black District is a major win for voters and black voters in that state. A number of republicans have been seeking to disenfranchise through gerrymandering. This decision is the result of a yearslong battle that went all the way to the Supreme Court after Alabama State republicans submitted a map that civil Rights Groups said violated the Voting Rights act by Diluting The Power of black voters who make up 27 of alabamas voting population. In 2022, a threejudge panel agreed tha the map had to be redrawn to enfranchise black voters. When alabama republicans, not once put twice, refused to obey the court orr, a Special Master was appointed to draw the map independently. When republicans tried to appeal to the Supreme Court, the highest court rejected their bid twice in the face of a rightwing Supreme Court that has not been shy about gutting the Voting Rights act. This is especially surprising and a big win, and it sets the stage for possible democratic gains in 2024. Joining our conversation, Voting Rights attorney mark elias, founder of democracy docket. At the table, New York Times Editorial Board member mara gay. Mark, youve been working on this for a while, bringing it to our attention. Tell me what this means. So i think it means two things. The first is the good news. It means that in 2024, black voters in alabama will have the opportunity to elect their candidates of choice in two Congressional Districts rather than one. That is a big win for the Voting Rights act, a big win for democracy, a big win for black voters in alabama. But i think we would be remiss if we didnt point to the second thing it means. It means that in 2021, the state of alabama put in place an illegal map. A map that violated federal law. In 2022, as you point out, they were sued. And rather than acknowledge what they did was wrong, they fought hard in court. They got the benefits of that. Kevin mccarthy got the benefits of that. In 2022, the state of alabama conducted elections under illegal maps that infringed on the Voting Rights of Black Alabamians and republicans reaped the benefit. 2023, they were called to account for that and told that their map was, in fact, illegal and they needed to draw a new map. Rather than comply, they stood, like George Wallace at the schoolhouse doors, saying were not going to comply with the courts order, were not going to comply with the trial courts order, were not even going to comply with the Supreme Courts order. They litigated and litigated and litigated until finally there was no more runway, and we have a fair map, a legal map for 2024. But republicans are saying theyre going to litigate that now for 2026. So Maga Trumpism has infected the Republican Party from top to bottom. Not only do they pass illegal maps, but when they get called on it, they launch frivolous argument after frivolous argument after frivolous argument in order to reap the benefit of telling their voters that theyre not going to comply with federal law. And mark, whats amazing is that it reveals something instructive, right . That the courts are not the circuit breaker. Even trumpappointed judges do not break the fever. And i just want to read some of what the threejudge panel wrote. We are disturbed by the evidence that the state delayed remedial proceedings but ultimately did not even nurture the ambition to provide the required remedy. Basically, calling them out for not even trying, for their strategy of defiance. Is there a sanction or consequence for that . So i think, again, we need to look at this in two contexts. The question, is there a sanction or consequence in alabama . Probably not, but maybe. But more broadly, nick goal, how many years have we been talking about now where republicans are simply defying the law when it comes to Voting Rights . There were sanctions after they filed frivolous lawsuits after the 2020 election. I represented President Biden and the dnc in 64 of the 65 cases. We won 64. Sure there were sanctions against the republican lawyers in some of them. There are now criminal charges against the president and some of those lawyers. But its years later. And in the interim, the Republican Party has set up a structure where they reward themselves by disobeying the law. They reward themselves by making the cruelty towards voters the point. And so will there be a penalty for republicans moving forward where they celebrate this kind of defiance . I dont know. Were going to see in future redistricting cases. Well see in future voting cases. There was a sanction for georgias Voter Suppression law, mara. Major League Baseball moved the allstar game out of georgia. Democrats in the state went short of calling for a full boycott of the state. There are a lot of movies made there, a lot of businesses in georgia. There are levers to be pulled. Why dont democrats pull those livers and punish Voter Suppression . It goes back deeper. Think about the context. 96 olympics were in atlanta. Bit we would never have imagined they would be in selma, alabama. Thats for a reason. That has to do with the historic different historic ways in which governors and state legislatures approached integration. And so alabama went a different way than georgia did. So there are far fewer levers to pull. There are fewer international, national corporations. Fewer National Sports teams in the same way. Its a very different culture. And so, in fact, when you spend time on the ground reporting in alabama, as ive been fortunate enough to do, and you talk to democrats and black voters in particular there, this is a ever, daily present battle for them. They know that their Voting Rights are on the ballot every single election. This is an ongoing fight that never really ended when most americans think, well, the civil rights battle was won and weve moved on. I think the context here is also worth remembering, that the state of alabama, black voters there, only got a majority district in 1992. Despite being nearly onethird of the states population. So they have been permanently disenfranchised up until that point. They had been, excuse me. Really, you know, since reconstruction fell in the 1870s. So this has a very long history. And i think to marks point, the kind of defiance that you hear, even today, from the state Attorney General, is very instructive. It really is like the old south. And now its kind of unrepentant. Thats something that trump has unleashed, unrepentantness. Mark elias, thank you for spending time with us. Were due for a bigger, longer catchup. Mara, stick around. Ahead, condemnation and outrage at the time, Florida Governor desantis sending migrants to Marthas Vineyard with the promise of jobs. Its the subject of a brandnew film airing on msnbc. Well talk to the filmmaker and attorney leading that effort after a short break. I was stuck. Unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. I needed more from my antidepressant. Vraylar helped give it a lift. Adding vraylar to an antidepressant. Is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms. Better than an antidepressant alone. And in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. Antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. 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They are part of an alarming trend by Republican Leaders and politicians to dehumanize immigrants and asylum seekers, to rile up their base and score cheap political points. An egregious example of this was widely condemned at the time by Florida Governor ron desantis, something that Florida Governor ron desantis did, when he shipped migrants from texas to Marthas Vineyard for a press stunt. This ugly episode is the subject of a new documentary, it premieres this sunday at 10 00 p. M. Right here on msnbc. The film is called Marthas Vineyard versus desantis, take a look. An escalation in the political fight over immigration. Yes, we will help facilitate that transport. Florida Governor Ron Desantis taking credit for sending airplanes carrying migrants from san antonio, texas, to Marthas Vineyard. 49 people, millions of dollars, for what . This was extremely deliberate. These people were handpicked. Based on what im hearing, it sounds to me like these people have all been kidnapped, that they were all victims of a crime. Joining us, the director of Marthas Vineyard versus desantis, david heilbroner. One of the lawyers featured, lawyers for civil rights in boston, Ivan Espinoza madrigal. Ivan, tell me, we covered it at the time. It was horrific. It remains horrific that this ever happened. But can you tell me how ron desantis gets involved with migrants who are in texas . This is one of the things that makes absolutely no sense. The idea of having the governor of florida transport immigrants from the border in texas to Marthas Vineyard and to do so under false pretenses. To promise people housing, jobs, immigration assistance. Things that were never going to materialize. All for a scheme of deception. All for cheap political points and to use people as pawns. And so one of the most problematic things here is the role that a Government Official is playing in jeopardizing human lives. How are they doing now . The migrants are as well as could be expected, under the circumstances. My organization, lawyers for civil rights, has been with the migrants since day one, since they landed on the island. Weve been working with a wide range of Different Community partners on the ground, both in Marthas Vineyard and today, outside of Marthas Vineyard. Most of the migrants are living in communities in and around boston and the Greater Boston metropolitan area. Where children are going to school, where families are doing their best to integrate into their communities. But this is a tough process. And what Governor Desantis did doesnt make it any easier. It complicated their immigration cases by moving them away from the courts and places where they had appointments and checkins. It also complicates their integration into the community. It has a stigma. Many of the children of the Marthas Vineyard migrants, children as young as 2 years old involved in this stunt, these children are going to school and theyre being identified as a Marthas Vineyard migrant and being bullied. Their lives have been turned upside down. Were doing the best we can at lawyers for civil rights not just to provide free Legal Support for the migrants but also to make sure their dignity is intact. David, the film also raises the question, i think we played some of it in that clip, about whether or not desantis commits actual crimes. Tell me about that part of the arc. Well, exactly. When i first got involved in this, i sort of bought i didnt buy it entirely but i came in with a collective notion, this is just kind of a political prank. Its to score points, its vaguely amusing to the rightwing. But as we drilled into it what came out of our research and our interviews was that this was a lengthy, complicated, very devious, sophisticated plan involving agents on the ground who are former Security Officers in the military, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars taken from the florida coffers to take people out of texas, creating fake brochures, luring people into a trap simply to score political points. I mean, desantis didnt even have the courtesy to telephone the authorities on Marthas Vineyard and say, were sending these people. He just dropped them there and ghosted them. Its appalling. Mara, if you need a single date point for how sadistic the Republican Party has become, you look at Ronald Reagans position on amnesty. John mccain and george w. Burns support for defensive immigration reform. And ron desantis dehumanization of migrants. Its not only disturbing when you think about it from the actions of people like ron desantis and the politicians themselves, but im actually also disturbed by the base and its views on migrants as well, at this point. Because its really anathema to the Economic Situation in the United States. This is a moment where you see the Republican Party, which supposedly was the party of the economy, its the economy, stupid. Theyre completely divorced from the reality, which is that there are plenty of places across the country where states need workers, actually. And there is lowercost housing where people could live. And so theres a lot, actually, theres a lot of room for the migrants throughout the country. But instead of that, theyve been demonized just for political points. This is about red meat to a radicalized base. And its sad. It bears no resemblance to the compassionate conservatism that we saw from the george w. Bush situation. It bears no resemblance to an optimistic america of the reagan administration. It is completely, again, divorced from the reality of what the American Economy needs as well. Such a shame. All the way around, its disturbing. Congratulations on the film, it debuts sunday. Thank you for spending some time to talk to us, david and ivan. Mara, thank you. Marthas vineyard versus desantis premieres 10 00 p. M. Sunday here on msnbc. Thats gross its nothing, really. Its contagious. You can even spread it to other people. Mom, come here dont worry about it. Itll go away on its own no, it wont go away on its own. Its an infection. You need a prescription. Nail fungus is a contagious infection. At the first signs, show it to your doctor. And ask if jublia is right for you. Jublia is a prescription medicine used to treat toenail fungus. Its most common side effects include ingrown toenail, application site redness. Itching, swelling, burning or stinging, blisters and pain. 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We got the house you did pods handles the driving. Pack at your pace. Store your things until youre ready. Then we deliver to your new home across town or across the country. Pods, your personal moving and storage team. Finally for us, early this morning this years nobel peace prize, arguably the most prestigious prize in the world, was awarded to imprisoned iranian activers far guess mohammadi. Shes mounted a brave fight against the oppression of women in raurnl at tremendous personal cost, 13 arrests, sentenced to 31 years in prison where she continues to fight. She organized other inmates duringast years uprising against the iranian mority police. A year later she managed to publish a New York Times oped about the unwavering determination among the imprisoned women in iran. Another break for us, well be right back. Because you are greater than your bipolar 1, and you can help take control of your symptoms with vraylar. Some medicines only treat the lows or highs. 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