President of the United States that was just smacked down by a judge in new york, to the historic chaos unfolding in the House Of Representatives, where Kevin Mccarthy was just ousted as Speaker Of The House. And we are going to get to all of that this evening but to understand how we got here, we need to go back exactly 1000 days ago. To january 6th, 2021, when a violent mob stormed the u. S. Capitol. In the wake of that deadly attack, minority leader Kevin Mccarthy took to the house floor and said this. The president bears responsibility for wednesdays attack on congress by mob rioters. He should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. That moment was the closest Kevin Mccarthy ever came to pulling himself out from under the heel of his partys hard right base. It did not last long. After that rebuke of donald trump, mr. Mccarthy spent each and every day paying penance, trying to work his way back into the good graces of the farright. Less than three weeks later, mccarthy flew down to maralago to Pledge Fealty to donald trump. Later that year, mccarthy refused to work with democrats to establish a nonpartisan commission to investigate the events of january 6th. When democrats went ahead with what became the january 6th committee, mccarthy did everything in his power to discredit that investigation. When republicansnarrow midterm victory headed them an equally narrow majority in the house, mccarthy was still working off his debt to the maga base. After 14 bruising failed votes for speaker, he effectively sold his speakership to the maga caucus. He gave conservative House Freedom caucus members coveted committee assignments. He opened a wide raging investigation into the socalled weaponization of the federal government. And he gave farright republicans the ability to oust him from the speakership, with just a Single Member needed to call that vote. Even after all of that, farright republicans still wanted more. And Speaker Mccarthy obliged. He started a standoff with the white house over the debt ceiling. He opened an Impeachment Inquiry into president biden. He passed an Ultraconservative Bill to fund the government, which included massive cuts to social safety net programs. But none of it was enough. And it all came to a head today when speaker Kevin Mccarthy learned a lesson he probably could have learned 1000 days ago. You cannot appease the mob. This was the moment today when Kevin Mccarthy officially lost his speakership. The yays are 216. The nays are 210. The resolution is adopted, without objection, the motion to reconsider is laid on the table. The office of Speaker Of The House of the United StatesHouse Of Representatives is hereby declared vacant. Today, these eight republicans voted with all of the democrats in the house to remove mccarthy from power, to end his speakership. In a lastditch effort to save mccarthy, his allies made overt appeals to democrats to bail him out. They asked democrats to vote with republicans to keep mccarthy in power. But democrats in the house had already learned, over the last thousand days, they could not trust Kevin Mccarthy. Kevin mccarthy had either ignore them entirely, or sold them out again and again, just this week, after democrats helped mccarthy avert a disastrous Government Shutdown, mccarthy went on television and try to blame democrats for the dysfunction. I wasnt sure it was gonna, pasadena want to know why . Because the democrats tried to do everything they can not to let it pass. Democrats were the one who voted for this. And republicans to keep the continuing resolution a life . That moment was reportedly foremost in democrats minds when they voted in lockstep against Kevin Mccarthy today. He had his chance to earn their trust, and he blew it. Tonight, Congressman Mccarthy announced that he is officially giving up. He will not run for speaker again. I believe i can continue to fight, maybe in a different manner. I will not run for speaker again. I will have the Conference Pick somebody else. House republicans are now in the wilderness. Uncharted territory. For now, congressman Patrick Mchenry will serve as interim speaker. He says he aims to hold an election for the new speaker next wednesday. On that note, republican congressman, troy nehls, has already nominated donald trump to be the speaker. And you can do that, because the speaker does not have to be a member of the house. Does he have to be in Good Standing with the law . Just asking, because today, a new york judge had to place a Gag Order On Donald Trump for lies he has been spreading about Court Officials working his trial. But when trump was asked about the man he used to refer to as my kevin, trump imposed a gag order on himself. He had nothing to say. So, just who gets to be the next Speaker Of The House . Very much an open question. Maybe gonna take a few rounds of voting. Or maybe more than a few rounds. As he was leaving the capitol tonight, republican congressman, dusty johnson, summed up his partys predicament, saying, you really have to wonder whether or not the house is governable at all. Im not sure i wish this job on anyone. Joining me now, jennifer palmieri, cohost and Executive Producer of the circus. And former Communications Director under president. David plouffe, also the involvement station. And brayden buck, former aide to Republican House speaker, paul ryan and john boehner. It is great to have all of you guys to talk about this historic moment. And historic not really in a good way. David, how are you thinking about what happened here today . Well, i thought the last comment was probably the most important, going forward. Im not sure its a job worth having. Someone will take it, someone will be elected. They will make a bunch of commitments and promises to try to appease the right. Like mccarthy, they will not be successful. So, i think it sets up chaos and turbulence and potentially damage the economy. In the not too distant future. So, you know, i think if youre an american, this is a pretty unsettling, if predictable, turn of events. At the end of the daynancy pelosi was able to manage quite fine with a majority this narrow. But im not sure that anybody who comes in the aftermath of mccarthy has any chance of landing the airplane. In a way thats going to, i, think benefit both Republican Party but certainly america more broadly. Jen, it really bears mentioning, pelosi was speaker with very similar margins, and it looked nothing like this chaos. What did you make of democratsposition here, absolutely not trying to help Kevin Mccarthy in any way . I talked to a lot of democrats today on the hill. I spent all day on the hill, alex, remember how that was. Oh, i sure do. Your circus days. A lot of people sending that regards to you. But i talked to a lot of house democrats, a lot of moderate democrats, and i think, particularly the moderate democrats, they thought really long and hard about whether they should throw Kevin Mccarthy a lifeline. I think had they thought that they were dealing with somebody, a man of integrity, that this was something that would actually, that a Continued Speakership Under Mccarthy might help avert chaos. People might have considered doing that. But they were really convinced that he was not a man of their word. He was someone that had misled both republicans and democrats. And i talked to congressman elissa slotkin, the hair having a mini civil war in their caucus, and they need to sort that out. I also talked to two of the members of congress, nancy mace and congressman tim burchett from tennessee. Both of whom voted to oust mccarthy. Both, sort of a surprise, that not both of those two voted 15 times to make Kevin Mccarthy speaker in january, right . I think, in both cases, they felt that mccarthy, in addition to not governing Congressman Burchett worried about government spending. He had personally slighted both of them. He mocked Congressman Burchett, he thought is gonna pray about whether he should vote for mccarthy as speaker. Nancy mace felt misled, vertically on some of the abortion policies that she expected to be dealt with in the house that werent. It was a lot of bad faith across the board. That, in addition to the maga wing trying to control him, that brought him to this point. Jen, just a followup on that. The way in which this was very deeply personal for those who voted to oust him, there was reporting that interview that Kevin Mccarthy did on sunday with Margaret Brennan on cbs, was played to the Democratic Caucus before they made their votes. Really, just to drive a knife in his speakership, to show democrats just what a turncoat Kevin Mccarthy was. Did you hear that from democrats . Moderates who might otherwise been inclined to support Kevin Mccarthy, as he continued to hold on to the gavel . Yeah. Full stop. Yes i did. Full stop. It seemed this ran at the beginning of the house Democratic Caucus. It had the intended effect. But i think that, democrats have been wrestling this with us for a while this question how theyre gonna deal with. It i think they really thought, it this is not a partisan decision. It wasnt like, oh, great we want to see chaos at the side. I think they really thought, we cant trust this man. We cant give him our vote. Certainly, with no kinds of assurances. Theyre just gonna have to work it out on their own. Yes, it puts you in a dangerous situation that plouffe described. But, you know, republicans have to be the ones to figured out. But, dot, dot, but what . What is the issue here . Lets talk for second about nancy mace. Who is upset, for personal reasons, for policy reasons. But is not someone who necessarily wanted the speaker to be more extreme on certain social programs like, for example, abortion. Yet, the person shes going to end up with is likely to be more hard right than Kevin Mccarthy. Is that not correct . Certainly. I dont if theyre further to the right, but theyre at least gonna have the backing of matt gaetz. Every one of those folks who kicked out Kevin Mccarthy today know that they can now do that to the next person. Whoever is speaker is gonna have to look over the shoulder even more than folks in the past. This does not get any better. What dusty johnson said is absolutely right. We are not, right now, fit for governing. We are party much more made for being in the minority. We like to vote against things. My whole issue in all of these folks, their problem is not really with the Speaker Of The House. It wasnt with me with Kevin Mccarthy. It wasnt with paul ryan or john boehner. These are the guys that dont like the realities of governing. There are some things you have to do when youre in the majority, like keep the government open. Like raise the debt limit. Like fund the government for the long term. Deal with democrats. Basic things like that. Those are fireable offenses. It doesnt make any sense. They set a bar that he can never meet. The next person is going to have to meet that same bar as well. Its the problem being speaker these days, you are basically running around, trying to make the fantasies of some of these members become realities. When thats the game, you can never win. I understand, maybe the idea that he should stand up to them more. Fight back. All that stuff that you talked about in the open, was enough to save mccarthy. But it was required to get to this point. Thats the reality of being a republican speaker right now. You have to do so many things or they will throw you out. It works really well for them, in their own political world. David, in this bizarre world in which we all, unfortunately live, some days i would say unfortunately. Matt gaetz is incredibly powerful. And is a person is gonna play a role, as brendan says, in picking the next speaker. If youre joe biden, looking at all of this unfold, what is your assessment of the situation . As it concerns your own priorities . Yeah, what a frightening fact that it is that matt gaetz is one of the most powerful people in one of the most powerful, the most powerful city in the world. Well, listen, joe biden, almost every Senate Democrat had a lot of republicans, wants to keep the government open. So, thats a complicating factor, thats gotten harder. Obviously, the list of legislation is gonna get dealt between now and next november is infinitesimal. Beyond, that i dont think you can expect much. Im not im sure biden will find ways to lift this up on the campaign trail. Which is, if you give donald trump and matt gaetz for control from the policy standpoint, from a Leadership Standpoint or a moral standpoint. You know, its devastating. So, i think this dysfunction, i dont want to overstate it, because swing voters in arizona, wisconsin, pennsylvania, president ial race, dont pay that much attention to congress. But to the extent that trump circus looks like its on steroids now. And the entire party is gonna follow him where its not about, to brendans point, about governing. Its about theater in performance, but listen, i dont see how the government is going to stay open in 40, 3 42 days, whatever it is. Because i think the leash just got a lot shorter. The least was already three inches. Now, its almost completely nonexistent. So, at the end of the day, its gonna make the next 45 days harder. But i do think, having all of that dysfunction as a backdrop for the president ial race, clearly, if donald trump is the nominee, one of joe bidens Core Arguments is going to be, you dont want to return to the circus. Its a supporting fact. A supporting fact. Okay, jen palmieri, david plouffe, brendab buck. We have a lot more ahead. Please stay with me. Including the eight republicans who voted yes on making David Mccarthy the first speaker ousted from the House Of Representatives. It turns, out those eight republicans all have one big thing in common. After that, what happens when donald trump gets a gag order . Harp, stabbing pains. This painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. A pain so intense, you could miss out on family time. The virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. If youre 50 years or older, ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles. To finally lose 80 pounds and keep it off with golo if youris amazing. 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Com realfood heres why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your Devie Duckduckgo comes with a builtn engine like google, but its pi and doesnt spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. And theres no catch. Its fre. We make money from ads, but they dont follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. Extensions, stanchion. Whats next . Will you put yourself back on the ballot, sir . That was the now former Speaker Of The House, Kevin Mccarthy, moments after he was effectively fired from his job this afternoon. Mccarthy walked right past reporters, ignoring their questions about whether he would resign with a big smile plastered on his face. Now, most politicians would not want to be the reason their party leader had to make that kind of walk of shame. Not just out of fear about what the party might do as retribution, but also, at a fear of how their constituents might respond. And, okay, most republicans did not actually vote to oust Kevin Mccarthy today. But eight of them very much did. And if you look at how all eight of those republicans did in the 2022 midterms, youre gonna notice a pattern. They were all elected with incredibly safe margins of victory. In other words, they are not too worried about getting reelected. Compare that to say, Lauren Boebert. Here was her vote on the house floor today. Boebert, no, for now. Nay. No for now. Congresswoman boebert sort of trying to have it both ways there. She wanted her rebel street cred, but in the end, she didnt actually vote to oust mccarthy. And that may have something to do with the fact that miss boeberts last election was one where she only won by 546 votes. In other words, Lauren Boebert cannot afford to alienate any voters. But these eight people . They could. And i think that is an important part of the story here. Still with me is jen palmieri, executive of the circus. Former Communications Director under president obama. David plouffe, and when the buck. Branded, it seems to me, the safety of the members in these districts really has a role to play in just how insane they can afford to be, in terms of their behavior in the House Of Representatives. Is this the root of the problem, and can Republican Leadership do anything about it . Its the root of much deeper than what happened today. Absolutely. The culture of the House Republican conference is always to do whatever is best for the base. That goes for everything that we do. It didnt always used to be that way. When i first got to the hill, you knew who your Majority Makers were. Those people in the Swing Districts who had to pay attention. Do you understand you couldnt go too far. You understood you need to let them vote a certain way. Because they were the ones who kept you in the majority. Nobody thinks that way anymore. Everything is about, not only playing to the base, but also throwing your colleagues under the bus, if that needs to be the case. Theyre very cavalier with some of their swing district members. Now, there are not very many of them left, thats why it is. But nobody pays attention to the middle anymore. Kevin mccarthy found that out very quickly. I dont see any reason thats Gonna Change Course anytime soon. We only have fewer and fewer Swing Districts after maps are drawn each ten years. Jen, theres also the strange Cognitive Dissonance between the farright maga caucus doing as much as they can to make trouble for rhino establishment republicans. And then some of those moderate rhino establishment republicans, those who are left, trying to blame this entire mess on the democrats. Which is what was happening today. Republicans out there saying, Speaker Mccarthy is being thrown overboard because the democrats wont stand by him. My question is, who is that line of logic gonna work on . I think they were just spinning. They didnt know what to do. We went from 2024 hours ago, Kevin Mccarthy tweeted, x whatever, bring it on. 24 hours later, he is gone. And said he would not run again to beSpeaker Of The House. I think that they were just, you know, spinning their wheels, and churning, the default is to blame democrats for not standing by Kevin Mccarthy. I mean, what do you think would happen to Kevin Mccarthy if democrats started to vote for him . I think that republicans wouldve bolted from him even sooner. I just dont think there was any scenario today under which Kevin Mccarthy was gonna remain the speaker. David, is there any argument that republicans can make to Swing State Voters that doesnt make them look like a Ship Of Fools as regards this speaker vote. No. In the point brendan made is really important. I mean, i used to work on the hill for democratic leaders. The windshield we looked out was swing members. I think thats what paul ryan did, thats what john boehner did. Nancy pelosi certainly did it. Thats different now. This is a very fragile majority the House Republicans have. If you just lay over president ial year turnout on the districts, the democrats should win somewhat comfortably. Thats a model thats not the real world, but i dont think so. Again, i think, you know, youve got trump. Youve got the chaos in the house. I think theres a lot of swing voters out there. Who say they dont want to return to that. I think, particularly, if democrats, and i think they can make the argument, hey, if trump wins, and the republicans hold on to the house, theyve got a decent chance of winning back the senate. There could be a trifecta. Do you really want this ship of full fools in charge . No. I think, again, present brendans point is so important. The matt gaetzes of the world, its not just, him most of the caucus, not all. Theyve created this false reality, its a world they want to live. In which is not the world that exists. In swing voters dont really exist in that world. Its all about catering to about 20 of the population, which is that hardcore maga base. Well, david, just a followup on that. It defies logic, given that the vulnerable swing state republicans are the ones that have handed Kevin Mccarthy the speakers gavel in the first place, right . Brendan says, i think rightly so, that the House Republican conference is very cavalier with her most vulnerable members then. Yeah, i mean, cavalier is too strong a word. They dont care, basically. Again, this is nancy pelosi. John boehner. Dick ephart, pastor, all these folks. They had their Governing Hat they had to put in, of course. Then you your political hat. In your awarded a ballot, those vulnerable members. Particularly, if they have an narrow majority. That just does not seem, so, those are the people that are most interesting. When they go back to town halls. When theyre doing interviews with reporters, and those vulnerable republicans, in new york, california, and other swing states, this kind of chaos really doesnt suit them. Again, this is a majority heading into a president ial turnout year election. It almost seems that many republicans in the house could care less. All, right, well to be continued, i suppose. Brendan buck, david plouffe, jen palmieri. The cohost of the new msnbc podcast, how to win in 2024. Excellent. Which is available now wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you guys all so much for your time. I sincerely appreciate it. We have much more still to come tonight, including the humiliating split screen for the Republican Party today. The speaker ousted, the front runner gagged. What it says about the party of lincoln. Thats ahead. But first, what donald trump or did to earn a gag order in court today. Neal katyal is here to talk about that, next. This halloween, trick or treat yourself to the blendjet 2 portable blender. Its to die for. Blendjet 2 gives you monstrous power for a delicious smoothie, shake, or frappe anytime, anywhere. Cleaning blendjet 2 is scary easy. Just blend water with a drop of soap. Recharge quickly with any usb port. Boogie on over to blendjet. Com and order yours today. It only took two days, technically a day and a half, for donald trump to be gagged by a judge in his new york fraud trial. It all happened after trump went on truth social and posted the name, photograph, and Instagram Account of the Judges Principal law clerk. The post attacked the clerk for being in a photograph with the Senate Majority leader, Democrat Chuck schumer. Then trump went to the cameras outside the courthouse and continued his invective. They rig the trial. Fraudulent trial. Theattorney general is a fraud. And we have to expose her as that. You see whats going on. Its a rigged deal. Frankly, you saw what was just put out about schumer and the principal clerk. That is disgraceful. Now, the judge did not take any of this lately. Calling the attacks unacceptable, and inappropriate. He ordered trump to remove the post and according to nbc news the judge told the court to consider this a gag order on all parties, with respect to posting or publicly speaking about any member of my staff. The judge said that violations of this order would lead to swift, meaningful sanctions. I am joined now by former acting solicitor general, neal katyal. Neil, first of all, great to see you in person. New york city is where all the action is legally speaking havent you heard. First of all, meaningful sanctions. What does that practically mean . Well, it could mean, in an ordinary thing, if theres a gag order imposed, and its violated, it means putting someone in jail. A gag order, alex, is really hard to get in a case. I dont think ive ever seen it in any of my thousand plus cases. Really . Yeah. , people know, the use common sense. Its kind of like failing kindergarten. To get a gag order imposed, you have to try. Trump managed to work at it and do it. And succeed. But it took a lot of work on his part. Now, i think the judge is basically saying, you attack a member of my staff, there will be serious sanctions, including even up to jail. Well, and yet, as hard as it is to get the gag order, i think its the broad expectation that trump is inevitably going to violate it in some fashion, or slander some other person involved in this case, whether its the prosecution or the judge himself. Would your expectation be that this is going to be a laddering up, a punitive ladder up, in terms of the judge issuing more gag orders, until, at some point, he is forced to something more drastic . Yes. Exactly. Basically, if were gonna ask, is trump gonna violate a gag order . Almost certainly, yes. Its more likely that hell violate the gag order than almost anything. Then George Santos being the next speaker. I mean, were talking a significant probability hes going to violate the gag order. And then the question is, will the judge, at that point, take the really heavy medicine of putting a former president in jail . Or will there be some sort of warning, and monetary fine first . I uspect a latter. It does really depend on exactly how trump violates it. Isnt trump sort of goal, his existential goal, to Stress Test Institutions . And the Judicial Branch is no exception to that . The idea that, you know, part of this, he feeds off of this controversy. He gains strength from disruption. Honestly, can you say, as a lawyer, that we as a country can really face a possibility of a former president , criminal defendant, being put in jail . That seems as necessary as that may ultimately be, that seems really hard to fathom. All right, your diagnosis of the problems seems exactly right to me. Trump is the kind of a bull voldemortlike figure, who gets his strength by attacking institutions. He does it here. Hes doing it in washington, d. C. , with the january 6th trial, which there is another potential gag order that in a hearing on that. Thats coming up. Yes, thats how trump acts. And judges are loathe to jail anyone. Particularly before a Jury Convicts or hears a bench trial. A judge finding guilt. You dont like to do stuff in advance. But when you have a litigant who behaves this way, you got no other choice. Let me tell, you if this were any other litigant, we would already see serious sanctions, perhaps even jail at this point. You mention judge tanya chutkan, overseeing the former federal case against donald trump in his activities around the 2024 election. Shed have a hearing on torbert 16, to determine whether others could be punitive measures taken against trump. The prosecution, the doj, would very much like the president to be censored in some way. Are judges watching each other s behavior in this . Does judge engoron, in the tish james case, set a precedent for judge chutkan . Are these separate and apart from one another . Well, the technical answer is, theyre separate and apart from one of another. What happens in one trial should not carry over and spill over to the next. They do, of course. Judges are human beings. And every time you crossed a threshold, other jurisdictions watch. For example, its new york that crossed the threshold of indicting a former president. Never been done before. But the manhattan district attorney, alvin bragg, does that. And then lo and behold, you see indictments in other jurisdictions both the federal and fulton county, georgia, as a result. Here, this judge has taken the step of issuing a gag order against the former president. Yes, this is a new york civil trial. But you can bet dollars to donuts, judge chutkan, a very, very respected judge in d. C. , is watching these proceedings and thinking, you know, im gonna wind up in this mess too, with a defendant whose mother himself off, attacking my clerks, attacking me. And the like. Shes incredibly careful, and i think trying to do everything to avoid a showdown. But that showdown is now looking inevitable, and as you say, on october 16th, there will be a hearing. I do expect, at that point, there will be some sort of order imposed on donald trump. Because the court cant tolerate this. Trump is expecting, hes sitting there saying yourself, ill bring this to the supreme court. My sanctions and the like. Its my free speech. He will lose that every day of the week. This is a supreme court. Regardless if people have disagreements about various things, abortion, whatever. But they really care about the decorum of court proceedings. The legitimacy of courts. And they will not stand for this kind of behavior with the court, with a federal judge. Yeah, theyve proven themselves to be particularly sensitive to criticism lobbed from the outside at the justices, right . Whether that criticism is warranted or not. One would imagine they would be sympathetic to the judges in this case, who may be the recipients of trumps slander. There is the kind of libelous rhetoric, of threatening rhetoric, that trump issues forth on social media. But theres also the fact, neal, hes been in this courtroom. Hes kind of a big presence in this civil case. Hes outside on the court steps. Hes doing his version of tweeting. I have to wonder, its clear that this new york civil case, deeply affects him, perhaps because its a financial case. Do you think that you could make the case that his presence in the courtroom, the things he is saying on the courtroom, steps are themselves a form of intimidation here . Well, i would distinguish retain what hes doing in court and out of court. In court, he has an absolute right to be there. It is trial. Absolutely, if he wants to be there, watch the proceedings, he should. And he obviously cares about how hes perceived on his net worth and so on, thats fine. The stuff hes doing outside the courtroom, i have a real problem with. And i think any second grader knows that you dont go and attack the judge in your case. That is not an appropriate way to behave. But trump backs the dignity even of a second grader. And i do think its a real problem. If he continues with the attacks, and this gag order appears to only apply to attacks on the staff, and not on the judge, if he keeps attacking the judge, i do expect yet another gag order to be filed, this time, about the judge. Can they stop him from coming to court . I dont think they can ban him from the court. Its a civil trial. You have an absolute right in a criminal trial to be present for your own case. Civil, i think its more complicated. Hes not gonna be banned from attending his own trial. The only option, it will take several months, and hes gonna be busy with other cases in the meantime. Neal katyal, no disrespect to kindergartners in second graders, absolutely. With a first grader into kindergarten, i can say, theyre behaving a little bit better than some people. Thank you for your time. Great issue, neal. The still ahead, the vote to oust Kevin Mccarthy today was historic, it follows a pattern for the Republican Party. Just how many of the parties speakers have been pushed out, when we are another. Were gonna count them, coming up, next. And im living with hiv. I dont have to worry about daily hiv pills because i switched to everyothermonth cabenuva. 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Get it with gurus. Cargurus. I do hope that i have left a few footprints behind that maybe a value to those who come after me. Just as i have benefited from the footprints of those who i followed to this most wonderful of institutions, a peoples house. Dennis hastert, the man you saw just there, was this centurys very first republican Speaker Of The House. He held the speakers gavel from 1990 and 2007. He got the job after hasty depart near of his previous predecessor newt gingrich. As because when republicans lost five seats in the house during the 1998 elections, they turned on gingrich. In and his longtime ally threatened to challenge gingrich for the speakership. So gingrich resigned and was ultimately replaced by hastert. To this day Dennis Hastert remains the longest Serving Leader in the republican congress. And hastert might have retired in the good graces of his party except that several years after his he was convicted of fines due to child sex abuse. And there was john boehner, who faced the threat of a motion to vacate from mark meadows. That never came to a vote but the effort alone led boehner to resign in the middle of his term. He served for four years as speaker. And then there was paul ryan. His time as speaker coincided with Donald Trumps election, and a new era of politics and the Republican Party, for that matter. Ryan reportedly told friends that serving as speaker during the Trump Administration was, quote, agonizing. Trump went after ryan with public insults in addition to trumps near daily controversies that ryan had to govern through. About 30 months into the job, paul ryan opted to vacate the speakers chair and also to retire from Public Office entirely. And now, as of today, Kevin Mccarthy, the parties for the speaker this century, served for 269 days before being ousted by members of his own party in a historic vote. By our count here, as my friend chris hayes pointed out to me, arguably the most successful republican Speaker Of The House and the 21st century was a serial child molester. Now to be fair, it is only 2023. The gop has 77 more years to burn its legacy, but wow has the trajectory so far not look great. Coming up, well try to and pierres Steve Inskeep about how republicans used to do it a couple of years ago, and used to do a lot more effectively. Thats when we come back. Stay with us. Stay with us limu emu doug [bell ringing] and doug says, you can customize and save hundreds on Car Insurance with liberty mutual. he hits his mark center stage and is crushed by a baby grand piano. Are you replacing me . With this guy . Customize and save with liberty bibberty. He doesnt even have a mustache oh, look a bibu. [limu emu squawks. ] only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Is it possible my network could take my business only pay for what you need. To the next level . It is with comcast business. Powering all your devices with gigspeed wifi. And you get fast downloads and uploads. Pick it up pick it up oh we got this because its powered by The Next Generation 10g network. More speed for your business . Its not just possible. Its happening. Get started for 59. 99 a month for 12 months. Plus, ask how to get an 800 prepaid card with a qualifying internet bundle. You know, president abraham comcast business, powering possibilities. Lincoln once said, im an optimist because they dont see any other way. That was how the former Speaker Of The House, Kevin Mccarthy, began his Press Conference earlier this evening. Abraham lincoln may or may not have actually said that, but he definitely warned his colleagues at the Illinois Republican convention in 19 1898 that House Divided against itself cannot stand. Hundred 65 years later, the Republican Party is quite different from what it was one Abraham Lincoln issued that warning, but the party is again a House Divided, ousting its speaker for the first time in a century. Is a historical parallel for this . Joining me now, is Steve Inskeep, first on npr, hes also the author of the very prescient new book, differ we, masstown lincoln succeeded invited america, out today. Steve, thanks for joining me. Thank you so much. An honor to be. Here first, your thoughts on Kevin Mccarthy invoking Abraham Lincoln. Having written this book about lincolns efforts to build political coalitions and build a majority, i cant help but know that mccarthy lost his, and there are a couple of fast factors. There its been noted just a few lawmakers were able to overturn mccarthy, but part of that has to do with the kind of politics they practiced over the past several years. You could argue that had republicans stood for Something Different over the past couple of years they would have a big majority now and matt gaetz would have much less influence. Instead, mccarthy is where he is, and, by the way, matt gaetz also does not have a majority, and when lincoln said House Divided against itself cannot stand, what he meant, was sooner or later one side or the other has to win and we do not know who is going to win the struggle for control of the Republican Party and the house. You make a good point in the book, that lincoln was someone ready to have difficult conversations, ready to have polite disagreements with one another, and i would suggest that supporting the parties is such that its hard to imagine sort of camaraderie in the same way, and yet, when you look at the way in which democrats, with very little apology, secured Kevin Mccarthys fate as an ousted speaker, one wonders if and if he had not perchance gone to sunday shows and said that the potential Government Shutdown was all their fault, if they had made more of an overture towards democrats, could his speakership have been saved . I think democrats probably did not act on personal considerations but on their calculation of their interests, just as mccarthy was acting as he thought on his interests, and there may well have been a different politics, where democrats wouldve seen it to be in their interest to prop up mccarthy but they had so many substantive differences, it seems clear to me that they want to republicans to have to sort out their house themselves. Even though the net result might be a more radical farright speaker. Lets talk a bit about the sort of parallel between now and, i dont know, the precipice of the american civil war, the parallels you see between now and then and whether we are inevitably headed toward a fight amongst in between each other. They dont expect a civil war in the way we had in the 18 hundreds. One reason being that its hard to figure out what it would be about. We have profound differences, but they are often about meanings, attitudes, cultural trends. I dont mean that there are real issues, like abortion, like the economy, like 1 million things, but a lot of our divides are kind of about nothing. Theyre about a few words on social media, and its hard to see anything that compares to slavery, which is what the civil war was about. And that, i think, is a well taken point, but when you look at january 6th, when it is about Political Violence is very possible, because we saw it on january 6th. Weve seen a lot of it in american history, and its very possible we would see something less than a full blown civil war. I guess i wonder, when you look at the sort of lessons in the conversations that you outlined in this book, how do you extrapolate that to cannon should happen today . Lincoln was something, but i was talking about interests. He fought for the interest of the person he was dealing with and trying to appeal to those interests. We try to understand the other person and figure out an argument for why they should support him, supports point of view. That didnt always work. He was dealing with some very unpleasant people, or people with very unpleasant views. And he was trying desperately to build a majority against slavery, which was really hard given the attitudes of the overwhelmingly white electorate at the time. And one of his insights, i think wise, not to throw away people who might be abused to him sometime, be civil to everyone and also insist on principles, and maybe from time to time you would find just enough people to ally with you to make a major majority. The republican Speaker Of The House in the party of lincoln fell a few votes for today. You sure did. But i do wonder, like, taking those notes to heart, How You Grade president biden, because he very much still wants to talk to the part of the Republican Party in congress that is not entranced with magaism to the extent that wing exists. Im not going to judge whether hes doing well or badly, but hes clearly attempting that lincoln style of politics. I want to deal with this person i disagree with online issues but theres a chance where we can do business. That conversation appears to be ongoing, the matter what happens in the house. Biden is almost always ready for the second chance. Its what democracy is. Everything about the definition of democracy, the person across the table who holds terrible beliefs, who is wrong about everything, still has power because they still have the vote. The only way that wouldnt be true is if we didnt have democracy. If were going to have democracy, we have to deal with people we dislike. Steve inskeep, i listen to you all the time, my friend. A treat to have you here in the flesh. Congratulations on the. Book again, it is differ we must, its out today. That is our show for this evening. Now its time for the last word with Lawrence Odonnell good evening, lawrence. Good evening, and we have Adam Klasfeld joining us tonight. He was in the courtroom today when the judge told donald trump to consider it a gag order. We are going to get a first person report on how that went tonight. Andrew weissmann is going to analyze it for us, yale professor tim snyder is going to join us. And of course, we will consider th