Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240703

Were following Breaking News on the trump fraud ruling. A new ruling finds trump and his business guilty of fraud. This is a major legal blow and its Rocking Donald Trump and his companies. A new york judge ruling donald trump defrauded banks and insurers across his Business Activities not oncer twice, but repeatedly, sometimes routinely for years. You see the a. P. Headline there. Trump, repeatedly, the word of the judge, submitted fraudulent financial documents. This is now right here tonight, this news, the largest victory yet for the new York Attorney general Leticia James and her ongoing clash with trump. You may recall she already forced him into Contempt Proceedings and forced him to testify, where he then pled the fifth. Todays ruing vindicates the thrust, the core of her case, which is that donald trump was not just good at business or clever or aggressive or any of the words that are thrown around. Many businesses, including the rough and tumble version of new york real estate. But rather, it confirmed and validates her legal argument that the way he got ahead and the way he has made money is by committing fraud, that this is in essence at times, a fraudulent company. Its a civil case with major, major repercussions, the ruling tees up the next steps, the punishment, possible further fines and an imminent trial that is set for october 2nd. Donald trump dealing with many trials. Let me walk through this briefly with you. Ali velshi kind enough to, but were making sense together. Going to go through the evidence and materials themselves. Im going to read to you a couple of quotes in a moment. But ill tell you off the top, the first bad news here for trump is that the civil trial will be run by the judge alone, not the jury, where you have one holdout. Lawyers are try to appeal to peoples sense of confusion. This judge is an expert, fair and impartial, but an expert at the difference between a little exaggeration and say, this apartment is in, say, soho, a neighborhood that its not, where youre literally lying about the maps. Thats something they were caught doing. Now, this will build the case, bel build off todays new loss, which means the fraud has already been found. A judge will now decide what to do about it. Thats one thing. Second piece of bad news here rocking the Trump Companies is the judge has ordered sanctions today already including that, quote, Business Certificates owned by donald j. Trump are canceled. Weve highlighted that word. This is not canceled like kanye or some actor you dont want to see anymore. This is the traditional Legal Definition of canceled, that they no longer exist legally, that those Business Certificates would look legally revoked. That is a big deal, and im going to tell you something right now. Literally lawyers and experts in new york are scouring the ruling and that language and precedent to try to understand what this means. Now, it could still be appealed, and there are basically questions about how that language, that new ruling, could limit or lead to dissolving some of many of trumps companies. So, those are two big headlines. Before i bring in maya wiley, ill read to you a bit of what the judge ruled today, that trump and his lawyers engaged in obstreperous conduct, that donald trump has at times lived in a fantasy world and not the real world. That may be allowed on the internet, the internet is full of fantasy. Its not allowed if you turn those fantasies into what you see here fraud. And she the judge responding to Leticia James singled out fraud in businesses and actions and said that that is basically what theyre up to. They also found that donald trump was involved in fraudulently inflating the value of specific Properties Like the Seven Springs property. And they concluded that he continues to disseminate false and misleading information. Now, thats the last quote im going to read before i bring in our guest. False and misleading you might say, okay, ive heard of that before. Hes been doing thee long time, and as we discussed before, you are allowed in america to say misleading things. I dont know if you have Family Member who is do that in public, private, on facebook. Thats over here. Whats over here tonight and the reason lawyers are trying to figure out what this means for companies, what it means to lose the Business Certificates, what happens at the trial is youre not allowed in america, not allowed in new york to blatantly deliberately release false information to the government or banks in order to defraud other people who are honestly participating in legal life or business. Thats the bottom line. Theres a lot more to it. We tried to keep it pretty straight forward. I want to bring in a former sdny civil prosecutor analyzing this civil case, maya wiley. I mentioned theres other stuff. Its not me and ali being humble. Some of this gets really technical, and thats why james has brought an army of investigators to it. But lets start at that high level. When this judge says, at the Summary Judgment level, you committed fraud. That debate is over. What does that tell us . Tells us the evidence that Leticia James and her team collected was so strong, was so strong that a judge said, theres nothing for a jury to decide here. The evidence is clear, and donald trump and his team did not meet their burden of saying wait, wait, wait, no, there really is a question here for a jury to determine. And thats a really strong statement by any judge. Many judges in civil to juries those kind of decisions, so when they do, and a judge like this in a high Profile Organization in this case the Trump Organization and donald trump that its had, decides that theres enough evidence without going to a jury except on damages thats what its going for, to decide how much they have to pay thats a big statement, and one of the things that really struck me early on in the opinion is the judge said not only is are they accused of fraud, of basically inflating values for selfenrichment, theyre even misrepresenting the law in the very way in which theyre trying to interpret whether or not it applies to them. Yeah. Weve now kept track of multiple investigators and prosecutors dealing with trump, including the d. A. In atlanta, including jack smith. But james was earlier, so people may have lost track. She talked a lot about when she was in office, if these things went unenforced, including the temporary federal immunity the president has, and the reluctant to get into this stuff in office, she said, no ones above the law. I want to play a little bit of james. This was in 2022. Claiming you have money that you do not have does not amount to the art of the deal. Its the art of the steal. There can not be different rules for different people in this country or in this state. Former president s are no different. Thats how she put it then, and then i mentioned getting him to sit down. He recently made waves talking about, maybe hell testify in the other trials i think action and history is more important than bluser and claims. He didnt do that with mueller. With james, he had a chance to go in and sit down. I want to remind folks, he pled the fifth over 400 times. Legally that is his righting but civilly that also didnt help him. Well, it certainly didnt, because hes got establish that actually he didnt violate the law if, as the Attorney General did here, has enough evidence to say, yes, you did. Essentially by doing that it meant, i dont have a defense i can mount without making it appear i committed crimes. When you assert the fifth youre protecting yourself from the appearance, as you remind folks, youre not allowed to infer guilt from asserting it, but nonetheless, thats a pretty dramatic statement. We also have to remember that in new york, the new York Attorney Generals Office has gone after the Trump Foundation and actually revoked its charitable status because it essentially was committing what amounts to a type of fraud with its charities by saying, give us money, well do good nice things for people, and finding out they were writing personal checks for personal benefit. And so its not even the first time the Attorney General of new york has done something that has demonstrated some peril for the Trump Organization, the trump family, but theres also his university, where he settled that case. He had an opportunity to try to settle this one. He didnt take it. Yeah. I want to turn to the other piece i mention, which is this language well put it up briefly on the canceled documents. The parties are directed to recommend independent receivers to manage the dissolution of the canceled trump llcs. That Word Dissolution is something i want to get into you. Were going to take our shortest break, 60 seconds, and come back with both of you. With both of you ugh, ill deal with this tomorrow. You wont. Its ripe in here. My eyes are watering. Look how crusty this is. Ugh, its just too much. Not with this. Good advice. When stains and odors pile up, its got to be tide. We are back. Were covering this Breaking News, a judge ruling late today that donald trump and his companies are guilty of fraud. S this a big step, a big victory in the case brought by the new York Attorney general. Maya wiley is here with me and david k. Johnson, a Pulitzer Prize winning investigative journalist. Welcome, david. Glad to be here with you, ari. Glad to have you. Maya and i are looking into the camera. Im told that weve got you by phone, which well take, okay . Well take what we can get of you on a Breaking News night. Im going to put up on the screen something i read just moments ago as were all trying to make sense of this Breaking News parties are directed to recommend independent receivers to manage the quote, dissolution of these canceled trump llcs. I invite to you analyze what you think that would mean given your knowledge of how this business run as well as your reaction to a ruling of fraud in the trump org thats a long time coming. Well, the judge here in his partial Summary Judgment, first of all, dismissed trumps request for Summary Dismissal of the case against him, and then has made it clear that trump engaged in all of these frauds, as he takes a 35pages to walk through all of the material. And i expect hell appoint a receiver to take charge of the trump properties, will sell off the assets, Pay Creditors what theyre due, and whatevers owed to the state will come out of this. But this is basically telling donald trump and his family, youre unfit to do business in new york. And the standard for doing business in any state is not that high. So, your reading of this, the dissolution language i mentioned and those socalled receivers, are people that would legally under court order essentially be taking some control of these asset during this period. It could be appealed or enjoined, but thats your straight forward reading of the Business Implications of this if its to go into effect . Yes, and now, the trump circle will appeal this. I dont think theres any question about that. He is currently seeking to have the judge removed. He has gotten nowhere with those sorts of efforts. And the judge i think this is significant, ari, to the tenor of this. The judge has imposed sanctions, fines in effect, on trumps lawyers. I dont know how many. I havent read that detail in it yet. But 7,500 on his lawyers for Maing Frivolous arguments and as you know and maya knows, if a judge says to the officer of a court, this is a frivolous argument, it is the equivalent of saying youre a drunk in a bar, you have no place in a court of law. Right, because youre allowed to make many arguments above frivolous, even if they essentially become losing arguments. This is one of those Breaking News stories. We appreciate you jumping on the phone and walking us through that piece of this. The fraud has been found, and this dissolutioned language raising intrigue around new york. Huge setback for trump and the trump org. Maya, i want to you stay with me, because amidst that fraud setback, trump also faced tough legal news awaiting two trials of jack smith, including the coup probe, which was, many people know, galvanized by those january 6th Committee House hearings that featured Cassidy Hutchinson, a former member of the Trump Organization. She spoke out in a new and large interview with rachel. About the mishandling and of evidence and classified material. Are you describing what i peered to you to be either mishandling of Classified Information or mishandling of president ial records, destruction of president ial records, which is not allowed . I was under the impression and there were several of my colleagues under the impression that how classified documents were being handled was not in proper protocol. I think it speaks to how reckless and careless much of the administration was. Hutchinson is out with a book where shes detailing a lot of things. She has an allegation of Sexual Misconduct that occurred on the date of january 6th. Number one, what does it mean for her as a witness with these cases pending . Of course the coup case. And number two, what do you think of what she describes there, about how they deal with material . Im sure there was a lot of concern about anything a potential witness is going to say on news immediate yam anyone trying a case always wants their witnesses to stay quiet in theyre in front a jury. That said, were not hearing that much that we didnt already know except and i would assume that there had been some discussion with some of this prosecutors about these additional allegations. But its certainly no surprise to hear that anybody in the white house thought eating paper, flush it down the toilet, shredding it as you walk down a hall and loading it on a truck and taking it with you to florida might not be consistent with protocol. And it was noticed at the time by people who are genuinely loyal. When you look at people, some witnesses went along with everything up until the insurrection or up until the insurrection investigation. Its not like they werent pulling for the guy in a lot of ways. But youre getting Eyewitness Testimony that can be striking. On more than one topic good to see you, maya. A lot going on. What you see on your screen, that was a big interview last night, but the box up for Lawrence Odonnell sitting down with Cassidy Hutchinson tonight. Tonight one of those nights where hell be building on the Rachel Interview last night. We recommend this on nbc. Come up, we have a breakdown of some of the other dubious claims were hearing and the attacks that trump is making in these court processes. Also, senator bob menendez, a top democrat, facing a second indictment now with cash and gold bars found in his home. I have a breakdown on that. Also in this choppy political environment, joe biden is facing both calls to really question how theyre approaching this Campaign Including from democrat like James Carville but hes also getting a boost from an unexpected figure, a onetime spoiler, josh marshalls here. Stay with us. Rshalls here. Stay with us Pensive Music Footsteps Crunching Pensive Music birds tweeting Pensive Music broom sweeping [narrator] one in five Children Worldwide are faced with the reality of living without food. No family dinners, no special treats, no full bellies. All around the world, parents are struggling to feed their children. Toddlers are suffering from acute malnutrition, which stunts their growth. Kids are forced to drop out of school so they can help support their families. Covid, conflict, inflation and climate have ignited the worst famine in our lifetime. And were fed up. Fed up with the fact that hunger robs children of their childhood. Fed up with the lack of progress. 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Wonder where mom and dad got the extra money . Maybe they won the lottery . Maybe they inherited a fortune . Maybe buried treasure . Maybe it fell off a truck . Or maybe they switched to Xfinity Mobile the fastest mobile service. Save hundreds a year over tmobile, at t and verizon. Now i can buy that electric scooter. Im starting a Private Equity Fund that specializes in midcap. You do you. Switch to Xfinity Mobile today. Cmon, were right there. Cmon baby. Its the only we need. Go, go, go, go ah Touchdown Baby touchdown are your neighbors watching the same game . Yeah, my 5g Home Internet delays the game a bit. But you get used to it. Try these. Theyre noise cancelling earmuffs. I stole them from an airport. Its always something with you, man. Great solid greek salad . Exactly dont delay the game with verizon or tmobile 5g Home Internet. Catch it on the xfinity 10g network. There is definitely a lot going on this week. I want to turn to this choppy environment. This is one of those stories you can do literally any night, but theres a reason were doing it ght,nd this regards both peoples real lives as well as whats happening in politics. These strikes are continuing across industries. Although the hollywood standoff hit an apparent breakthrough this weekend. Many americans continue to find this post pandemic inflationary economy is a continuing challenge from gas prices to job instability, and those very real concerns can get pinned on the encumbent, in this case, president biden, whose Approval Rating remains low. Hes been stuck under 50 for over two years straight. Those are some of the concerns that royal parts of the Biden Campaign apparatus. You rarely see them presented a this program because we dont find they have enough reliability to become news, and if were doing our jobs right, we sift through the things and present you whats worth looking at, not whats basically worth ignoring. Having said, that i will tell you a whole raft of rough polling has begun to stir up headlines and perception buzz about bidens problems, and its not just his own opponents or internet click bait that im telling you about. We heard from credible liberals about this debate over how bidens doing and whether he should be doing Something Different right on this show, which sowed questions about whether there need to be a better set of options in the primary. Many insist he wins when hes counted out and say, its no time for democrats to turn their back on a good policy record and a winning record. There are still some democrats who believe that there should be an open democratic primary. Theres clearly a lack of enthusiasm about the president himself. When i see him move he looks old, but when i hear him and his ideas, i think theyre youthful. Voters expressed concerns about a biden 2024 run. Age is a factor. The elephant in the room here, bidens age and fitness. Joe bidens been underestimated his entire career. He proves you wrong time and time again. That is just some of the back and forth here in the reality of the democrats. There are also people who say, gosh, if that conversation is going to hurt joe biden maybe they should tune it out all together. If thats how you feel and you dont want to hear about reality, you can tune me out, because were going to always convey all of it, which brings me to another point thats really interesting, that politically spilled into the open when a long time biden ally, James Carville, went public, which is something he only does with a strategy and reason with similar concerns. He went to the New York Times with what democrats need to wake up to, a Biden Problem of perception, if not more, and then hes always talked openly here about the risks ahead. Lets assume the election was November The 3rd a this year, and they said, the candidates of joe biden the democrat, donald trump the republican, joe manchin and larry hoggle and cornell west. Trump would be a betting favorite. Yes. Totally. Fy told you id give you even money, you would not take that bet, all right . So somebody better wake the [ bleep ] up. Thats how carvilles talking these days. Meanwhile, democrats Long Resentenced ralph naders Spoiler Royal in 2000. The foe coming out with news hes backing joe biden citing the high stakes and, quote, fascism in the gop. Its certainly help on the left that biden can use right now, and a shift we always hear about strange bedfellows and politics it was than senator biden who said nader would not be welcome after costing democrats the election. All that is going on while biden just did something today again this backdrop that no sitting president has ever done because of the old traditions that sometimes need to give way. Biden the first sitting u. S. President to join a picket line. You saved the Auto Industry back in 2008 and before. You made a lot of sacrifices, gave up a lot when the companies were in trouble. Now theyre doing incredibly well, and guess what . You should be doing incredibly well, too. [ cheers and applause ] we heard from one voter there who talked about the president s new ideas or new approach. His aides say things like what hes doing today matter. Joining the Picket Line Matters and, being the first president to to it matters and all of that is the policy side. But all the other stuff that James Carville and others who are not biden hate we ares raising is very real. And as ive told you before, if you ask everyone in the country not about some future matchup, which isnt the best poll question, but ask them what they want, the majority of people want more choices than the two that were currently being given. With all that reality in mind, i bring in someone whos not afraid to face reality, Founding Editor of talking points memo, josh marshall. Hope you appreciate that introduction. Hope its accurate. Could be worse. How you doing . Im good. I give you open season to reply to all of the above. I mention there are some people in political or Media Circles whose view, is why talk about it . Or is talking about it endorsing it . I dont think all the poll of which theres a Beltway Freakout About is relevant, but the things i went through, including the fundamentals are clearly relevant to voters who arent very happy. Your thoughts. Well, look, theres no question were living in a period of intense discontent. You see it reflected about joe biden. You certainly see it reflected about donald trump, i would say with much greater reason. But you see it about the institutions of our republic. You see it kind of everywhere. And i think theres no question this has a will the to do with everything we have been through in this country over the last three years with the pandemic, so on and so forth. Look, i dont think theres any question that a lot of people have concerns about joe bidens age. I think a lot of democrats have concerns about it. Not so much necessarily because theyre worried he cant do the job. Theyre worried it might make him lose, and some people who arent that closely tied to politics look at him and say, hey, its an old guy. So all these things real. I think to have this conversation tough step back and say, how do our basic institutions run . Would we prefer to have, like, a 60yearold joe biden or a 55yearold joe biden . You know, spartacus on an airplane as they said on snl . The question, what are our our options . Who else is going to step in . I think if you look at the moving part of this, you see that having joe biden get up tomorrow and say, you know what . I think i wont run. Im done. Im going to be a lame duck for the next year. And you know the eight people who the governors and senators who were popular and doing well, im going to let them have it out right now. All of these people who have no record on the national stage. Governor pritzker, governor whitmer, governor newsom. They may be the next person. The Vice President , kamala harris, people need to take into account people who are really worried about donald trump getting back into the white house need to think about those moving parts, too. Theres a reason why president s dont just decide not to run. The last time we saw anything like that was with Lyndon Johnson in 1968. Yeah. His party lost the presidency, and in a lot of ways ushered in a whole era of conservative dominance. So let me jump in. Youre talking politics. Yeah, yeah. What do you think James Carvilles doing . The New York Times quote, which i know registered inside the white house, where hes been an informal sounding board, was the voters dont want this, referring to more biden. And thats in poll after poll. You cant look at that and not feel theres some apprehension here. I feel apprehension. I feel all sort of apprehension. Do you think hes trying to Ice Biden Out or energize the support . What do you think hes doing . Im not asking to you only be a carville whisperer, but he speaks to a democrat who wants something to change here. I dont know what hes thinking exactly. I understand the apprehension. I share some of it. I would ask james, whats your plan here . If you do you want to go talk to joe biden directly and tell him in effect to resign . Because thats what not running for reelection really is as president. Those things are real. Look, i think theres one thing for democrats who are freaking out about this to keep in mind, and this doesnt mean everythings great. This doesnt mean joe bidens necessarily going to win. But if you look at these polls, one thing comes out very clearly is that donald trump is running as the person who will bring republicans back in power. Theyre all for that. Right now joe biden is essentially running against himself. Yeah. Prefer joe biden or other nontrump person whos better. Thats a tough standard, yeah. To your point, thats why those early matchups are so meaningless, because its like an alternative to the economy. If somebody says, i want something else, great, they do, but thats not what youre going to get on the ticket. Heres a flashback for you, ralph nader. If george w. Bush is elected i would be disappoint. If al gore is elected id be disappointed. Because theyre marching for the white house to see who takes the paychecks from the corporate master and corporate government in washington. I know that brings it back for a lot of people, josh. Whats striking is here we are today here, nader making way saying those arguments he once made are wrong right now, that liberals and i would think its fair to say anticapitalist leftists like himself at least against the current version of what he calls Disaster Capitalism still need to get out, get registered and vote for joe biden. Who would have thunk it . What do you think . This era has shown us on so many different levels, you dont know who your strange bedfellows are going to be, right . When you have some people, former representative walsh, right . Who knows who youre going to find yourself on the same side of some question on. Great for ralph nader that hes saying that. But look, i think what it comes down to is if this election ends up being a choice between joe biden and every and people who want donald trump to be president again and people who do not want him to be president again would prefer to keep on this path. Im pretty confident joe biden wins that election. And theres a lot of reasons democrats can think that we will move closer to that as we get to the general election. The real problem for joe biden is that you do have this disaffection and you do have potential Third Party Candidates who can stop up a lot of votes of people who they dont want trump but, eh, biden, maybe ill vote for cornell west, whatever clown the nolabels people come up with. Thats a real threat. And look, apprehensive . Sure. How couldnt you be apprehensive . But were not in a situation of all potential choices. Our choices are fairly limited. Yeah. And if you oppose trump, you kind of got to know what to do. Let me tell you something. You heard of political punditry. Yes. A few times. Tonight i feel like you are going political parenting. Well, thank you. Ive im doing real parenting on the side, but im glad i could do this, too. We are a twohour drive from home, those are the realities. So we have two hours or more to get home, and youre doing some political parenting. Thats my observation. Josh, we appreciate you. Absolutely. Thank you sir. Were going to fit in a break. When we come back, gold bars. Wild, wild allegations of corruption, and some democrats saying enough is enough, even though the legally presumed innocent bob menendez is awaiting trial. We have the head of the Dojs Criminal Division for this one next. Al division for this one next more cash. You think those two have any idea . That they can sell their Life Insurance policy for cash . So theyre basically sitting on a goldmine . I dont think they have a clue. Thats crazy well, not everyone knows coventrys helped thousands of people sell their policies for cash. Even term policies. I cant believe theyre just sitting up there sitting on all this cash. If you own a Life Insurance policy of 100,000 or more, you can sell all or part of it to coventry. Even a term policy. For cash, or a combination of cash and coverage, with no future premiums. Someone needs to tell them, that theyre sitting on a goldmine, and you have no idea hey, guys youre sitting on a goldmine come on, guys do you hear that . I dont hear anything anymore. Find out if youre sitting on a goldmine. Call Coventry Direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect. Com. Subject 1 whos that . Whos that . Cole this is my fluffy. Charlie cancer. Its different in a child because your child is still growing. I had 14 rounds of chemo. Theres thousands and thousands of kids All Over The World who need help. Subject 2 it is my first time having cancer. And its the very worst. Crew this september, you can join the battle to save lives during Childhood Cancer Awareness Month by supporting saint Jude Childrens Research hospital. Subject 3 its scary to watch your kid battle and fight for their lives. Crew one in five children diagnosed with cancer in the us will not survive. Subject 4 Childhood Cancer is hard. Its a long road. You just have to give. You have to give someone that hope and especially with them being so young. Crew please call, go online, or scan the qr code for only 19 a month. Families never receive a bill from saint jude for treatment, travel, housing, or food so they can focus on helping their child live. Subject 5 she grew up in this. So when we go to st. Jude, shes happy because thats her home. Every time i take her to the doctor, shes excited because she gets to play. And thats all because of saint jude. Crew when you call or go online with your credit or debit card right now, well send you this saint jude tshirt you can wear to show your support to help saint jude save the lives of these children. Subject 6 [speaking spanish] crew lets cure Childhood Cancer together. Democratic senator bob menendez indicted again. Pressure mounting as he battled with this second indictment in his senate. The case has scandalous details prosecutors tout as Smoking Gun Evidence of bribery, like these gold bars and cash that were discovered in a search of the senators home. Doj alleging this was part of cash, benefits, cars, from the egyptian government. Menendez stepped down from his post chairing the committee. Democrats want more. They say its time for him to resign, a reaction that shows mounting concern after menendez weathered corruption charges before. He was indicted by the feds in a case that led to a mistrial. There have been signs about this before. We reported on that on the overwhelming evidence against him then, so this new evidence of gold bars and cash does build on what appears to be a pattern. New jersey senator bob menendez is the subject of a Corruption Investigation over jet trips he took on the private plane of a florida eye doctor. Menendez is the first senator charged with bribery in 35 years. The case against menendez as a legal matter doesnt look close. It looks overwhelming after the nineweek trial and a deliberation, the jury was deadlocked. Declared a mistrial. Prosecutors say that shows its hard to prove corruption cases. Then and now menendez is innocent until proven guilty. The evidence is for his at a time more people are getting a refresher on rico charges, menendez is on the other side of another kind of case, a rico one that started his public life. He became a witness against his own mentor, wore a Bullet Proof Vest when he testified. Led to a conviction of the boss, bill musto who did a prison bid and still came back to win a mayors race. Easily won election the day after he was sentenced to seven years in prison for racketeering. I dont think its magic. Id like to think it was, because then id use that magic to get rid of that conviction out there. Its not magic. I think its love. Menendez testified against that thenconvicted politician. Now he stands fighting a case that looks Even Stronger than the last one. Were joined by leslie caldwell, former head of the Dojs Criminal Division. Welcome back. Thank you. I want to talk exactly to you about this case. Given your experience. Are these serious charges, and is this strong evidence . , so theyre extremely serious charges. And theyre very different than the charges filed against Senator Menendez in 2015. Remember that between 2015, when the senator was indicted, and 2017, this case went to trial, there was a Major Supreme Court ruling which pretty much altered the landscape on the level of proof the prosecutors have to present in public corruption cases. That law applied during Senator Menendezs first trial, and i think that went a long way toward from being a hung jury and the judge dismissing some counts. This is very different. This is a much more kind of traditional looking corruption case, where you dont have bags of cash, but you have envelopes of cash and you have bullion, which is very unusual, and you have a car. Obviously these are just allegations at this point, and the senator obviously, as you said, has a presumption of innocence, but this is a much more straight forward sounding corruption type case. The other thing about the other case was the codefendant in that case was a long time friend of Senator Menendez, and that does not appear to be the case with these various businessman who are involved in this case. Youre referring to the legal footing and some of the ways a jury might have had more pause last time. Heres what menendez says. For 30 years, i have withdrawn thousand of dollars in cash from my personal Savings Account, which i have kept for emergencies and because of the history of my family Facing Confiscation in cuba. Now, this may seem oldfashioned, but these were monies drawn from my personal Savings Account based on the income that i have lawfully drived over those 30 years. Part of his public defense. How does that kind of defense or argument fair at trail . So, i think its extremely likely that the prosecutors and their investigators have already obtained through subpoenas Senator Menendezs bank records. Because in addition to wanting to prove the things found in the search came from other people and were subject to corruption, they want to make sure there wasnt some other legitimate source. They dont want to assume all the money came from corruption. Theyd want to double check. My guess is they already looked at his bank records, and this statement should be provably true or false depending what those bank records look like. You mentioned the gold bars are unusual, especially nowadays. Is that powerful evidence that also in its simplicity can be understood by some jury . Unless theres some other gray explanation. Yeah its extraordinarily powerful. You dont see gold bar as bribes and certainly dont see them in peoples homes so. Its very powerful. Its going to be difficult to explain even if what Senator Menendez is saying about the cash is true or can be cast in doubt. The gold bars, at least two have serial numbers this link them to the codefendants. All that very interesting including the primer you remind us of, the way the Supreme Court can tighten this, raised the bar to simplify it. But these prosecutors say they can meet that new bar. Leslie caldwell, former head of the criminal divisiont doj, thank you. Thank you. Absolutely. Were going to fit in a break. When we come back, we turn to the coup case. Theres a lot of scrutiny about how trump is trying to deal with the gag order. Well have that update for you next. You next remember the pain . Cancelled plans . The worry . That was then. And look at me now. Youll never truly forget migraine. But qulipta® reduces attacks, making zeromigraine days possible. Its the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp and is approved to prevent migraine of any frequency. 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Org to become a guardian of liberty. Keeping track of a lot of different stories including several in this case, Corruption Allegations against Senator Menendez. Now before i go, i did want to update you on how defendant trump in the coup case is dealing with the fallout and the potential consequences from the way he has publicly and systemically attacked Law Enforcement, judges, prosecutors, federal officials as he braces for two federal trials. Critics say this is encites hate and violence. Now his lawyers are claiming to the court he has not intimidated. They also say trump quote never any unlawful action. That is false. Trump has been publicly caught. Of Course Lashing out at all sorts of Law Enforcement officials going beyond the type of public criticism one is afforded. When youre put on trial, you dont have the same rights as anyone else just like when you sit in the courtroom and your told to be quiet which is different than your First Amendment right to shout over people when youre walking down the street if you so choose. And trump, whose lawyers are lying about his record, has ten directly invoked violent rhetoric. That for example they do say jack sthays okay. Im going to put trump in jail. I think its a very dangerous thing to talk about. Because we have a passionate group of voters. Much more than in 2020. Much more passion than they had in 2016. I think it will be very dapg rouse. Very dangerous says the man who summoned everyone to washington for events that turned into a now convicted seditious. Lawyers also say there is quote no evidence of a causal connection between his speech and the, excuse me, the alleged unlawful acts of others an they cant explain how they would provoke any reasonable listener to lawlessness. Those are two different claims. One may remind you of the Impeachment Trial where donald trump didnt directly say the magic word that might have incited violence. That he didnt say for example, storm the capitol. Thats sort f a legalistic line but the second part is absurd. Weve lived through this. Many people responded to him then went to court and said they responded to him and unless the lawyers want to say all of these people are unreasonable, whatever that means, this already happened and we lived through it. Trumps lawyers say jack smith is actually the one you have to watch out for when it comes to a fair jury. That media allies represent the greater threat than anything trump has said or will say. Thats the point where you have to lol. Jack smith doesnt even give interviews, speeches. Hes only spoken twice for less than five minutes each when he announced these indictments. 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