Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240703

11 00 here wednesday night. Ill see you then. Thats going to do it for us for now. Now, its time for the last word with lawrence or donald. Good evening rachel. Ill be going head to head with the Republican Debate at ten pm. So, there is the option. Different audience, different world. For anyone who doesnt really hang on every world of the debate, they can watch this. But, rachel, i was hanging on every word of the interviewed Cassidy Hutchinson just now. I met her in the hallway on the way when she was on the way out to go do your show. Ive been reading the book and i am very impressed. It is very consistent. If you were impressed with her testimony to the january Six Committee and what you saw there, the poise and the strength it took to deliver that testimony to tell the truth about what she witnessed. The book is very consistent with that, as was just meeting her in the hallway just now. Did you get to the part where you are in there . I only got to it when someone pointed it out to me and said that you had pointed out to them. Tell lawrence, so lawrence, its page 346. Yeah, i have not finish the book, but she mentions having seen alexander, there it is right there, alexander butterfield. She met him on this program, and i was watching her testify, i just thought, when did we see this before . When did we see this before . We really did with alexander butterfield, and i talked about that on this program, and then they got together because of me talking about it on the program and having mr. Butterfield on the program at age 90 something. She knew that because you had been able to reach him that she might be able to find him to, and he had been her American History Moral Compass for this moment, having had the exact parallel job that she had in the white house. You set on the course knowing that she could actually find him in the world, and, anyways, you have an important cameo there for having nailed that historical parallel in a way that was very resident and important to her. Thats a theme that runs throughout the whole book in terms of having moral courage. They became friends, and mr. Butterfield told me how impressed he was with her. He downplayed his own version of id saying, i didnt have any choice and i just told him the truth. In fact, his testimony played very similarly at the time to Cassidy Hutchinson, and it did for all of us watching. It felt like it took bravery for him to do it. But, watching her, rachel, ive known so many people in these kinds of jobs. But, none as young as she was with that much responsibility. I have just been so impressed with the way she handled it and the way she handled this interview with her tonight. I have to say, theyre just one thing i have to comment on which is the response you just got from her about matt gaetz. I agree with you, as you read the book, matt gaetz is a weird floater in this book. His behavior is weird, it kind of fits with the weirdness aura he has as we observe on him from a distance, he is trying to get into her cabin at camp david and things like that. Her face in a bar, like, no. Im not somebody said please touch my face, dont touch anybodys face. The first rule of being a human with other humans, jesus. And then, in his written statement in defensive himself and whats revealed about him, he says that, cassidy and i dated. So, when you read that, i was really surprised when you read that, because i thought, wow, that is not the feeling you get in the book. Then, for the record, she said i never dated my gates, which is the most matter of response to that that she can have. But, consider these strange crosscurrents that she has to go through here that, oh, by the way, Alex Butterfield didnt have to go through. There werent any issues about who did you date while the white house was breaking into watergate. Exactly, and while a crisis of democracy was happening in the nixon white house, nobody came and put their hand on alexanders butterfield skirt. You know what i mean . The fact that the Rudy Giuliani anecdote got attention because the guardian publicized it, but then in reading the book realized that giuliani is one of several, and there is a lot of stuff like that that is just part of the course. Its not an abuse allegation of any kind, its on groping allegation, but just the fact that trump told her she should highlight her hair, and that she did, and then he came back and praised her for having did what she wanted with her hair. What he wanted her to do with her hair. I mean, shes a special assistant of the president just point. You know what i mean . This is not something youre bought should be sink, you know what i prefer in the office, here at the white house, i prefer you blonder. That is not cool. Its not okay. And, to follow the story, she did it with another woman at the white house at the same time to put some blond in there. She realized, now this is my hair i dont like this, and she went back. But, it was all about donald trump wanted every ones hair to look like hair. You are supposed to, in fact, he wanted her to get hope that managers phone number. They could handle that but he couldnt focus about meetings on covid long enough to follow the conversation for the whole meeting. But, he was able to think about who he could contact to get better highlights. I will say, theres more one moment of the book that i didnt im running this down, because im going to ask about it tomorrow night when shes here. Its my own preference, but i think its something thats very funny, theres a funny on adult about mark meadows which is not a tragedy or anything about loss of democracy or people being prayer horrific, its about him being a teetotaller. Lots of people we know are. And him accidentally, on a monday morning, getting totally hammered at the white house, because he did not know that white cloth was anything other than delicious seltzer. Accidentally being very drunk at the office while having had his first ever Alcoholic Beverage by accident and no fault of his own, is also a very funny. Saying up to that day, mark meadows and i were tied as never having been drunk in our lives. I still have not gotten accidentally drunk. Youre going to have to pull it off somehow sneaky one of those counts around my office. Ive been switching labels and you can figure it out. Not a true next door, i am afraid of that. I am very careful about every single beverage i pick up there. See now, i seem like the creep in the bar. Rachel, great interview, thank you for doing it, were going to get jen psaki reaction to it, because she lives the life we just talk about in a same white house. Excellent, thank you lawrence. Thank you, rachel. Joining us now is, jen this network and has experience working into administrations in the white house. Jen, such an extraordinary interview with someone peter welch who, like me, as ive read the book, i know those rooms, i know the white house Chief Of Staff, i know the fireplace, i know where her desk would be, you know it better than i do. These people are very vivid to you. What did you get from rachel interview tonight . So much, but i do think what you just said is so important for people to understand in terms of her access, as the reading this book and hearing her do interviews. The Chief Of Staffs office in the white house is next to the Vice President of the United States office. Its down the hall from the oval office. The Chief Of Staff, theres no one in the white house who has more access and Greater Knowledge of what the president is up to or thinking of the Chief Of Staff. The Chief Of Staff to the Chief Of Staff which is a very funny name, but every white house seems to use, it is a person who has a great deal of our responsibility, sees, hears, everything. I havent read the book yet, because its coming out tomorrow, but i suspect she has a lot of, and they saw this in rachels interview, a lot of stories saw lot during her time. Watching reaches interview and like you i was stuck to the Television Just hearing what she had to say. I was struck by her poise. Shes a 27 year old woman. She was even younger when she was in the white house in a very Important Role. What stuck to me, and they wrote this down a little bit of a paraphrase because i left my exact notes downstairs, is he wants to do it again. She has a reason why she is speaking out, why she spoke to the january Six Committee, why she wrote this book in part, why shes doing these interviews. She wants people to hear and understand that this is not in the past, he can do this again, he wants to do this again. There is a lot, but thats something i immediately wrote down during the interview. I think we have it on video, lets take a look at that. Bringing it back to next years election, these people very well could be in power again. Do we want people who have already shown that they are willing and want to overthrow and over election, duly elected president , which is the pinnacle of our democracy. Do we want to people like that back in power . Do we want to put people back in power that have mishandled, and have been show to mishandle the most Sensitive National security secrets that our nation has. That is the question we need to ask ourselves. Jen, i was struck by another part of the interview where mark meadows has now put out a written statement trying to counter the book, but its kind of week. He saying, oh she doesnt provide context and some of it is completely wrong. Lets listen to what she said in response to mark meadows challenging her credibility. In terms of his statement, i would encourage him to go testify under oath if he thinks that. What is in the book and what i have testified to under oath which is consistent with what is in the book. He can go testify under oath if he has strong feelings about that. Jen, if you are mark meadows Criminal Defense Lawyer in georgia, youre very worried about this person who you just saw on rachael show. Yes you are. That person who you just saw and who just wrote a book and whos talking to tomorrow night has a lot to say about what mark meadows saw, which he advised, which he was a part of, she was there for everything. As mark meadows is facing his own indictments in georgia, still trying to move the menu as we know, she is a key voice here in putting together for prosecutors exactly what he knew and what role he played. When you look at her what you had to say tonight, you look at the testimony of the committee, she is so solid and there is no incense that the Criminal Defense Lawyers can find to attack her credibility. There is nothing in the way she ended up coming to the january Six Committee to give that testimony. That is an anyway suspect. Thats right, she came forward, she told her story, she did under oath. Shes not the right person to ask about this why she wasnt in jack smiths indictment. Shes not the right person to ask about that, but her story was so compelling. Its what many of us remember from the january 6th hearings, amongst other things. It was such a remarkable moment. Im curious as to why not, and maybe that requires a lawyer to answer the question. She is not clearly at liberty to see what her cooperation level, what she may very clear to rachel, is she will testify to in any way shes asked to testify if shes asked to testify. What was her in point to the grand jury in washington, d. C. . What was your input to the grand jury in georgia . It is not something she was prepared to reveal in that our. So, we are going to have to be more patient to find out exactly what role shes going to end up playing in those cases. But, mark meadows, as you read about him in the book, its certainly gives you a much fuller picture of the way hes doing his job. It was what i suspected, which, was whatever the boss wants, i just want to be the person who oks that. Cassidy hutchison was the person who i was wondering, i was wondering whether this person exists in the trump white house. Its the person who we have all seen in Government Offices who has to go in to the boss and say, you absolutely cannot do that. Here is why you cannot do that. By the way, the people who go in, almost always prevail on the bus because the boss realizes oh youre right, i cant do that. There are not people who are gamblers and taking chances the way mark meadows and donald trump was. But, there is Cassidy Hutchinson. At age 24, in the west wing of the white house, shes the person who is saying, you cannot do that, and the president cant do that. She saying that the white house Chief Of Staff, and the white house Chief Of Staff is doing nothing. That is exactly right. Mark meadows, ive worked for six, seven, white house Chief Of Staff, they were all different. But, never was a single one of them a yes maam ive only worked for male white house Chief Of Staff, theres never been a female one. Never, because their role is exactly as you said, lawrence, its to go into the president , have the tough conversations, and really tell to them straight about what they can and cannot do. The role that they play, is the role they typically have a lot of years of political experience before theyre in that job, is to also be an adviser to the Chief Of Staff as theyre advising the president. So, its an Important Role and the white house is ive worked in, and the Mark Meadows Role i think is so important to keep reminding people, being a yes man is not playing the role of the white house Chief Of Staff is supposed to play. He seems to be just somebody who looked the other way. He said, he was basically afraid of getting yelled that. That is not the job you are supposed to play. Jen, by the way, in the west wing rioters room fictional series, one of the reasons i argued for and easily prevailed on the point that alison, who is playing your job or i was playing her job, either way. Shouldnt be promoted to white house Chief Of Staff. One of the reasons was, there is never been a white house Chief Of Staff. Weve only had the fictional one in nbcs fictional white house. But, its such an interesting point to me that she was able to be discussed strong in the face of all these men. When you read this book and when you encounter her, there does not seem to be, theres just nothing gender specific about she did she her job. She was just a strongly holding her ground every day in that job according to this book, as the men who were not strongly holding their craft. Right, a lot of people, including in the Republican Party serving as republican officials, could learn something from a 27 year old Cassidy Hutchinson and that shouldnt make a few people feel bad who were afraid to speak out. Ill also say, lawrence, and you and we talked about this, and i worked of course in politics for 20 years before i came over and joined all of you is, the experience shes had, which were so challenging or horrible or inappropriate, that is not what governments is what it should be what it typically is. There are about doctors, unfortunately a number them seem to summer clearly in congress, matt gaetz, but that is not what government is, thats not what Public Service is, and i hope people who read this book because its such an important part of history and are thinking about coming into government know that to. Very important point. Giuliani would never be welcomed into any other white house. The pillow guy would never be welcomed into any other white house. Republican white house is either. Matt gaetz would never be welcomed into a white house. Including republican white houses. So, thats a very important ll thes happen, many people was running wild i want to squen here, that you had ton speaker pelosi. Whether new jerseys indictedwe, if yright after this break, wel which may be life threatening or permanent. These arent all the serious side effects. Caplyta can help you let in the lyte™. Ask your doctor about caplyta find savings and support at caplyta. Com. 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For softer clothes that are gentle on your skin, try downy free gentle downy will soften your clothes without dyes or perfumes. The towel washed with downy is softer, and gentler on your skin. Try downy free gentle. Cmon, were right there. Cmon baby. Its the only we need. Go, go, go, go ah Touchdown Baby touchdown are your neighbors watching the same game . Yeah, my 5g Home Internet delays the game a bit. But you get used to it. Try these. Theyre noise cancelling earmuffs. I stole them from an airport. Its always something with you, man. Great solid greek salad . Exactly dont delay the game with verizon or tmobile 5g were back with jen psaki, Home Internet. Catch it on the xfinity 10g network. Who is now the regular monday eight pm host on msnbc. Chris hayes will be with us on the other nights of the week at eight pm. So, jen, first of all, welcome to msnbc primetime monday nights. Thank you. Ices to rachael earlier, but its true for you too, im kind of your warmup act. Its a big honor. So, you made news with a big question for nancy pelosi, lets take a look at that. Several House Democrats along with new jerseys governor have all called on senator bob menendez to resign. Do you think he should resign . I respect their position that they are taking. The charges are formidable. And, in fact, were going to say that if youre indicted, you should resign, we have a situation in the house. As you know from the state of new york that that would hold part to. Right now, sadly, because of the challenges that we face, because of skepticism that exists in our country about governments about the republican part of the doesnt believe in governance, doesnt believe in science, so wants to take down everything in order to give talks breaks to the wealthiest. Weve got to stay focused on that, and for that reason that probably be a good idea. Jen psaki spoken as the woman who forced Anthony Weiner to resign in hours when she was decided to. Thats right. I dont know where she was going to end that answer. I also didnt know what she was going to say when i asked for that question. What she was basically saying there is that it is a distraction. She served with bob menendez, and what he did it with doubling down today and i think is not a good situation and also not great for democrats. She is saying that this is clearly a distraction, we cant run against the party thats going to get rid of corruption and have somebody who is still serving in the senate. It does not mean hes going to step down, obviously we saw what he said today. , but she is a pretty significant player in the Democratic Party and remain so today. Jen psaki, its also the perfect lead into our next segment, which is about some of determinant those. So, jen psaki thank you very much for joining us tonight. Whenever youre not busy on monday night after you finish your show, were here at 10 00. All right, ill be here. Thank you, john, appreciated. Thank you lawrence. After this break, more on why Senator Menendez should resign including just how difficult it is to be indicted if you are a United States senator. Only 13 senators in the history of the senate have been indicted, bob menendez has been indicted twice while serving as a senator. That is next. If you want to lower stroke risk from afib not caused by a heart valve problem, theres a better treatment than warfarin. Eliquis. Eliquis reduces stroke risk and has less major bleeding. Dont Stop Taking Eliquis without talking to your doctor as this may increase your risk of stroke. Eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding. Dont take eliquis if you have an Artificial Heart Valve or abnormal bleeding. While taking, you may bruise more easily. Or take longer for bleeding to stop. Get help right away for unexpected bleeding, or unusual bruising. It may increase your bleeding risk if you take certain medicines. Tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures. 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[dog barks] no its just a bunny as you just heard, tonight, only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Former House Speaker nancy pelosi in an interview with jen psaki on this Network Made News when she said, indicted new jersey senator Robert Menendez should resign. It would probably be a good idea if he did resign. One of the very hardest thing for United States senator to do is get indicted. If you are looking for a job where you have more than the 99 chance of never being indicted, the United States senate is the place for you. This country has had 2002 United States senators, exactly 13 of them have been indicted. That is just over one half of 1 of United States senators who have been indicted. But, if youre a senator from new jersey the, odds of you being indicted skyrocket. Here is senator Harrison Williams, who made the mistake of accepting piles of cash from fbi agents posing as rich saudis in a Bribery Track Investigation that became known as the undercover fbi agents, handed the senator a briefcase of cash which was recorded on fbi videotapes, and was proof beyond reasonable doubt for a jury. The fbi managed to catch exactly one, one out of 100 senators in that stink, which once again, reinforces just how hard it is to indict United States senators, usually because they are in fact too smart and just honorable enough to not commit crimes. Serving right alongside senator Harrison Williams when he got caught on camera taking a bribe, was the junior senator from new jersey bill. He was a rhodes scholar, who was a basketball star at princeton, and went on to nba stardom in the glory days of New York Knicks when the team won two nba championships. Bill bradley was the most famous professional athlete to ever become United States senator, and he was as wise and honest and decent and dedicated to his oath of office as any United States senator whoever took that oath. So, new jersey has sent the good and the bad tonight states senate, but new jersey has sent more bad than most states. Bill bradley left the senate after serving three terms, and he was succeeded by robert torisel e. , who served only one term which she began to Criminal Investigation by u. S. Attorney in the Southern District of new york. At the beginning of senate Soliz Reelection year in 2002, the u. S. Attorney announced after, quote, an exhaustive investigation of gifts received by the senator, the prosecutors would not be seeking an indictment of the senator, a democratic Majority Leader who had only 51 democrats released a statement saying that senator torisely had been indicated. New jersey voters did not think so. When the polls showed the senator racing towards a clear defeat at the last minute, the Democratic Party in new jersey changed their nominee. Just in time to get the new nominees name on the ballot. Suddenly, retired former new jersey senator Frank Luxembourg came out of retirement to find himself running for the senate again at age 78, and winning, and holding the seat for the democrats in an election where the democrats still lost the majority. Frank luxembourg, served new jersey honorably, and was then succeeded by a senator cory booker, who has also served in the senate with honor, and unquestioned integrity. Robert menendez occupies the same senate seat that once belonged to the indicted and convicted senator, Harrison Williams, who was caught on camera taking cash. Senator menendez cash has also been caught on camera, but only instill photographs of piles of it. Found at his home. The indictment of Senator Menendez made public by the u. S. Attorney of the Southern District of new york on friday, the same office that indicted senator harris Tara Henderson williams, says an fbi search 480,000 in cash in Senator Menendezs home. Robert menendez today, insulted the intelligence of the voters of new jersey and the rest of us with this explanation for the cash. For 30 years, i have withdrawn thousands of dollars in cash for my personal savings account, which i have kept for emergencies, and because of the history of my family Facing Consecration in cuba. What is he talking about . How do you do that on the senator summary . And, he was born in New York City in 1954. His parents left cuba in 1953. Fidel castro did not come to power in cuba until 1959 Whereupon Property was seized in cuba. That is not even close to Senator Menendezs lived experience. He is a member of the Senate Banking committee, and he is pending that he is afraid that his money will be seized if he leaves it in an american bank. It was seized, because it was found in cash in his home. If it is true, that he doesnt trust american banks to hold his money, then he should resign from the senate right now on the grounds of being grotesquely incompetent at understanding how banks work and how American Life works. Any senator who has 480,000 in cash at home should resign right to know the fbi also found gold bars, which they say were one of the ways bribe are paid to the senator in the bribery and extortion indictment that charges the senator his wife and three men who delivered the bribes according to the indictment. Senator menendez said, absolutely nothing about the rest of the evidence in the case, including the free mercedesbenz he was given as a bride according to the indictment. Only three senators have said that Senator Menendez should resign, none of them are republicans, because republicans want Senator Menendez to stay in the senate as an indicted United States senator, to help prove that being indicted is no big deal in American Politics like donald trump says. Republicans wanted determinant is to run for reelection next year, and lose that seat to a republican who would easily win that seat. If Senator Menendez resigns, the democratic governor of new jersey would appoint a democrat to replace senator meninges. During Senator Menendezs lifetime, five United States senators have resigned under pressure. One of them is new jerseys Harrison Williams, who only resigned after he was convicted, and when the senate was about to vote to expel him. Only then, that Harrison Williams resigned, not getting caught on video would cash, that make him resign. So far, Senator Menendez, plans to follow the harbison law, the three senators who resigned after Harrison Williams were never charged with a crime. Ill franken resigned in 2018 after at least 34 democrats rushed to call for his resignation, before allowing a committee investigation, which Senator Franken requested, accusations by women against the senator for Inappropriate Conduct were enough for Senator Franken to agree with his colleagues that he should agree resign. He apologized and resigned. Prior to the, in 2011, republican john of nevada resigned during a investigation of possible corrupt activity that revealed an extramarital affair. The third one was republican senator bob packwood who resigned in 1995 after a multi year Senate Ethics committee investigation, led to a unanimous recommendation of expulsion for sexual harassment. The chairman of the Senate Ethics committee that recommended the expulsion of bob packwood, the powerful republican chairman of the Finance Committee was Mitch Mcconnell. Mitch mcconnell didnt just call on bob packwood to resign, he demanded that the senate expel him, expel a republican. Knowing he would be expelled by bipartisan vote of the senate, bob resigned. So, theres a strong history of United States senators demanding the resignation and forcing the resignation of senators who have not even been charged with a crime. As hard as it is for United States senator to be indicted, this is Robert Menendezs second time. He got a hung jury at his First Federal criminal trial. That means, some voters voted guilty and some non guilty. He got a hung jury in 2018, democrats treated him as if he had been found innocent, as if he had been completely exonerated, as if he had done absolutely nothing wrong. There is no such thing as a finding of innocence in american courtrooms by juries. Cory booker, immediately embraced his new jersey colleague publicly when the Menendez Jury became a hung jury. Will he do that if donald trump gets a hung jury . Will every democratic senator, who fully embraced robert mean that this is after he got a hung jury publicly come out and do the sink if donald trump gets a hung jury in florida or a hung jury in georgia or a hung jury in washington, d. C. . If donald trump gets one juror to vote not guilty while every other juror is voting guilty and the jury is hung, will every democratic senator say, well, that means he did not do it . Like they didnt robert min this. The first senator to say Robert Menendez should resign is a new senator, who is by far the most distant from the Senate Establishment way of thinking and dressing. John fetterman pennsylvania said in a statement, senator mendacious resign. Hughes entitled to the presumption of innocence under our system, but hes not entitled to continue to have influence over national policy, especially given the serious and specific nature of the allegations. I hope he chooses an honorable exit and focuses on his trial. Senator futterman said that on saturday, 24 hours after the indictment became public. Senator of ohio and then leader peter welch of vermont said senator monday should resign. Silence from the other senator from vermont, who said this about Senator Franken, quote, the right thing is for him to resign. Thats what cory booker said about frank in. And, its what Sherrod Brown said about al franken. He said, i agree, time must come from Senator Franken to step aside. Sherrod brown is the only senator who called for franken to resign, who was also calling for senator Robert Menendez to resign. Ill franken did resign, and he said he did it for the good of the party. He was convinced, by majority that he had to resign with an election looming in alabama, in alabama. I could understand why democrats did not want Robert Menendez to resign from the senate, from the first time he was indicted, because there is a republican governor of new jersey at the time who have Andrew Romeo Appointed a republican to service senator. That is a really change the ethics of the situation, but i can understand the politics of it. But, now theres a democratic governor of new jersey, who can easily appoint a more honorable and honest senator than the twice indicted Robert Menendez. When the republicans forced the chairman of the Finance Committee to resign from the senate, they lost that senate seat. Republican packwood was replaced, and the republicans of 1995 never paused over that. They knew that was going to happen. They drove out a republican senator, and lost the seat to the democrats, and they knew that was going to happen. Mitch mcconnell did that in 1995. Obviously, Mitch Mcconnell has changed dramatically since then and would not do that again today. Here is what Senator Schumer said about Senator Franken at the time. Senator franken should resign, and he should step down immediately. Heres what Senator Schumer said amount Senator Menendez. Bob menendez has been a dedicated Public Servant and is always fighting hard for the people of new jersey, he has the right to due process and fair trial. Senator menendez has rightly decided to step down temporarily from his position as chairman of the Foreign Relations committee until a matter has been resolved. No, whether you agree or disagree with schumers existence that al franken should resign and reasonable people disagree about that, it is impossible for Senator Schumer to be morally right about both of these cases. Its impossible to say, Senator Menendez deserves due process and a fair trial as Senator Schumer did. Senator franken did not deserve due process, and the Ethics Committee investigation. What these two stories tell you, is that democrats in the senate do not have a set of Ethical Principles already at all times to guide them to the situations. In a year, thats all about defendant trump, democrats now have to deal with defendant menendez. Now whats going around is 12hour cough relief. And the giggles. The family that takes delsym together, feels better together. The first time you made a sale online with godaddy was also the first time you heard of a town named dinosaur, colorado. We just got an order from dinosaur, colorado. Start an easy to build, powerful website for free with a partner that always puts you first. Start for free at godaddy. Com your record label is taking off. But so is your sound engineer. You need to hire. I need indeed. Indeed you do. Indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. Visit indeed. Com hire smelling ew. Gotta get rid of this. Tell me why because it stinks. Have you tried downy rinse and refresh it helps remove odors 3x better than detergent alone. It worked guys Yeahhhh Downy rinse and refresh. Today in georgia, judge scott mcafee issued an order to protect the identities of jurors in the upcoming trial of Trump Codefendants cant chesbrough and Sidney Powell in Fulton County, where Jury Selection is scheduled to start in just 28 days. Joining us now is amy lee, a criminal defense attorney and Barbara Mcquade is with us, former u. S. Attorney, and professor at the University Of Michigan have lost school. Former District Attorney. Gwen, let me begin with you as a neighboring District Attorney there. Will this protective order work in this case to hide the identities of jurors . I certainly hope so. There is no reason to think it wouldnt. Im very glad to see that the judge has taken this step to ensure that the jurors are going to be protected. Weve seen some horrible, horrible threats and things done to the grand jurors, and so this is just one way to ensure that the panel as they are selected, panel in Fulton County Residents Oster selected will receive the greatest level of protection possible. We know that the first group that will be asked to come in is the 900 of them in the first group. They now know, or will know, that their identities will be protected. That seems important. That does, lawrence, it should give them some comfort that they will be referred to simply by number that the reporter and that care for it to them by name, that any lightness is can to pick them. They really cant be photographed or injury of similarly to their features. Though, will be able to use questionnaires to weed out some biased jurors and move the process along a little faster because 900 years is a lot to get down to a panel of what will likely be 12 jurors and four alternates. Barbara mcquade, at the same time, and the notion thats my identity has to be protected must also in a way out another level of tension for the jurors. It does, lawrence, and i think it really says something that in a case against the former president , we need to have an anonymous anonymous jury. Anonymous juries are used in other cases, but theyre usually terrorist cases, or cases involving gun violence gangs, where people are concerned about their safety. The idea that this is a concern in this case, it really deeply troubling, but its absolutely a concern. Now, one thing i think the judge will have to be mindful of, is to instruct the jury that they should not draw an inference from the fact that they are being held anonymous and hold that against the defendants in any way. Its about members of the public from which they need this protection. When, the judge must of been mindful of the timing of this to make sure its out there publicly before jurors actually have to start showing up. Absolutely. I think as jurors have received their summons now, they may have had concerns about their safety, and so ensuring that these protective orders get out and into the public realm, hopefully will provide some comfort to that youre only dealing with being able to get the jury of 12 folks who will be able to keep an open mind and not have to worry about their safety as they listen to evidence. Amy lee, the same cannot be done for witnesses. You cannot hide the identity of witnesses. You cant, lawrence. They are there. Theyre publicly testifying, and of course as we all know, georgia will televise their witness testimony. So, absence and compelling circumstances that i cannot even imagine right now, the witnesses will be publicly identified and will be on television. It all starts 28 days from now. Amy lee copeland, Barbara Mcquade, jen queens, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thank you, lawrence. Thanks for having us. We will be right back. Ah morning. The golden hour of cold and flu symptoms. Im feeling better. Cough . Congestion . All in one and done with new Mucinex Kickstart. Aaaaah ah hated that. Headache . Better. Ah fever . Body pain . Better now. Aaaaah new Mucinex Kickstart gives all in one and done relief with a morning jolt of instant cooling sensation. Its not cold and flu season. Its comeback season. Okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. Yay woo hoo ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. And ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. i have active psoriatic arthritis. But with skyrizi to treat my skin and joints, with 30 grams of protein. Im feeling this moment. Along with clearer skin skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. 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Tonight, the judge in georges Case Orders Protections for jurors. We have the latest on where things stand with donald trump s multiple indictments. Plus, senator Robert Menendez