Transcripts For MSNBCW Alex 20240703

Case, they have pleaded not guilty to racketeering and other criminal charges. So, unity, i guess. Beyond that though, these 19 defendants are not exactly marching in lockstep. Five of trumps codefendants have filed to have their cases removed to federal court. They argument they are trying to make to ensure that that happens, those arguments do not look good for the former president. Take, for example, three of georgias alleged Fake Electors. David schaffer and kathy latham in sean still. They have all said in their court filings, their cases belong in federal court, because they were just, quote, acting to assist the president , or acting at the direction of the president. Now, those arguments might help these three folks in claiming they were defective federal employees, which weird, if true. And then maybe that will help them argue that they should be tried at the state level, but wow, does that argument not help their codefendant in all of this, mr. Donald trump. It is essentially judge, we were Fake Electors acting at the direction of the president. We were federal Fake Electors, judge. Meanwhile, trumps own chief of staff, mark meadows, is making the argument that he was just doing what his boss wanted. Again, that not exactly look good for mr. Trump. In a hearing last week, meadows was asked why he was so very invested in making sure the Fake Electors met. Mr. Meadows answered, i knew i would get yelled at if we had not. As, in not arranged a meeting with a Fake Electors. Yelled at by, whom mr. Meadows . By the president of the united states. Hoof. About a full four of trumps oh Dakota Finance are trying to either, i was just following orders strategy, or the very novel, i was just trying to not get yelled at strategy. Both of which directly implicate former president trump. And then trump and five of his other codefendants are trying to abandon ship altogether. They are trying to have their cases separated from the others. Each man for himself, or herself. Sort of. Now, there are a bunch of different arguments here. Ray smith, whos a former Trump Campaign attorney whos been charged in all of this, he argues that the georgia case, a case alleging a vast criminal conspiracy, for mr. Smiths perspectives, it involves too many defendants. The case is to byzantine, it is too complex for the jury to comprehend. Mr. Ray smith argues, for that reason, the court should split the defendants into little clumps of defendants, so that they can each have their, quote, bite sized cases. Like cupcakes in many cupcakes. One is bite sized, the other is not. Okay, but there are other things, apart from these requests. The Severance Request from defendants like trump himself and his former lawyer, john eastman. They both are arguing specifically, they want their case split off from any of the defendants who are set to go to trial on october 23rd. They both claim that that date is way too soon. And there is no way their defense can be ready that quickly. Which is, of course, amazing, considering that two of trumps codefendants, Kenneth Chesebro and sidney powell, are asking for that october 23rd date, in demanding a speedy trial. Then there sidney pauls motion to sever her case from Everybody Else is. Because she believes her case has no substantive connection to anyone elses, which seems like a stretch, given sydney powells alleged involvement in the breaching of Voting Machines and the fact that trump almost appointed her a Special Counsel to investigate voter fraud in the 2020 election. But, i dont i digress. Her codefendant, Kenneth Chesebro, also filed a motion to sever his case from everyone elses, and then he filed again, specifically asking to have his case severed from sydney powells case. Because apparently, Kenneth Chesebro does not want to have his legal faith tied to sydney powells. Which, i gotta hand it to him, is understandable. The hearing for sydney powell and Kenneth Chesebro Severance Motions is set for tomorrow at one pm eastern time. As for the five motions to remove individual defendants cases to federal court, well, those could be granted, or denied, any day now. Now, if all of these feels chaotic to you, that is precisely because it is. All of these 19 defendants here or looking out for themselves. So, my question is, who does this chaos benefit . And who didnt hurt . Joining us now are Anthony Michael crease, a professor of law and Political Science at Georgia State university, and joyce vance, former u. S. Attorney for the Northern District of alabama. Joyce, let me first start with you. In terms of this idea that every wants to cut their case off from Everybody Elses. Or with some sort of mathematical fungible it in all that. What is the judge gonna be weighing here as he decides whether or not mr. Trump, for example, can have this case severed from the rest of his 18 codefendants . So, when you look at Severance Motions under georgia law, the defendants have to convince the judge that if their case isnt severed from all of the other defendants or some of the other defendants, theyll be prejudiced in a serious way, and defendants typically will argue, there is evidence that is admissible against a codefendant, but that is not admissible against them. And that it would taint the jurys consideration, and that they would run the risk of being unfairly convicted. Thats the sort of classic case. And we see the defendants here trying to make out those arguments. For instance, Kenneth Chesebro saying, you know, ive never been to coffee county. I dont know sydney powell. Its not fair to try me with her. I think its very likely the judge will come back with this rejoinder. This is not a charge about coffee county. This is a charge about a rico conspiracy. So, the issue is whether or not the defendants participated in that, as opposed to whether each defendant committed every single act thats charged the indictment, obviously, they didnt all participate in all of them. Thats not how conspiracy case works. Professor chris, when we talk about the likelihood that this is gonna be a 19 defendant trial, first of, all is that even in the realm of possibility . And how would that work, given that Kenneth Chesebro has been granted his speedy trial date of october 23rd, yet, were still litigating whether hes gonna go separately from Everybody Else. Is there a chance that donald trump somehow is to have his trial on october 23rd . Well, i dont think theres ever a real chance that were gonna have all 19 defendants at the same time. I think we all anticipated it when we first saw the indictments come out that there would inevitably be some folks who would want their speedy trial request, and could potentially have a trial in the fall. There would be others who would want to have a more delayed timeline, and would be others who would cut deals in order to avoid trials at all. So, that was always a huge variable. I dont think anybody thought that all 19 were probably the most realistic outcome here. I think that the motions were seeing now, in terms of the speedy trial motions, the Severance Motions, bears that out. I dont think were gonna see are 19 different trials or a number of trials in the teens. There may be a few buckets of trials, perhaps one in the fall, one in the spring, something of that nature. Fani willis initially said she wanted a six month window. So, well probably find out more tomorrow, in particular, because judge scott mcafee has asked for the prosecution to offer a good faith timeline for which they could prosecute all these defendants together, or most of these defendants together. So, we really have to wait and see what happens tomorrow. Joyce, to that end, i feel like ive read different assessments about whether severing your case from trumps is a good thing or a bad thing for what will call a smaller fish in this racketeering conspiracy case. Does it hurt the former president to have some of his associates split off from him . Is it advantageous for them to not be tried with him . What is your assessment about severance as a strategy to get a better outcome in all of this . So, unfortunately, the answer, alex, it depends. It can be helpful for a smaller fish to have the bigger fish sitting alongside them, and to be able to point the finger. On the other hand, when a jury hears all of the evidence about the full scope of the conspiracy and the big fish is sitting there with a little fish, the little fish can run into trouble, depending on the prosecutions strategy in the scope of the evidence. So, this is a decision, really, that each Defense Lawyer will have to make on behalf of their client. One more on that, joyce, just because professor was kreis suggesting the good faith timeline that the prosecutors are being asked to come up with. When fani willis said, at that press conference when she first announced the indictment, that she hoped to have this go to trial in six months. I think a lot of people to put their eyeballs back in their head. A case with 19 codefendants. A case of this sprawling nature, that seems remarkably ambitious. Is it so ambitious . Or is it actually plausible at this point . No, i think its entirely plausible. On her and, she did all over work up front. We know she took extra months before she sought the indictment. And shes put on full display, in the last few weeks, her readiness, her willingness to go to trial. So, the more important question is whether the defendants can get all of the due process that theyre entitled to in six months. Thats just not an unreasonable amount of time for each of the individual defendants to assess their situation and be prepared for trial. At bottom, this is a case about one overriding conspiracy. There are a lot of different moving parts, but six months is a long time, plenty of time for defendants to be ready. Professor, im struck by the chaotic nature of all of this, and maybe its to be expected when you have a large, vast conspiracy case, A Racketeering Case In Georgia with 19 codefendants. But the arguments that some of these folks are making about why this should get tossed out of state court and moved into federal court, they seem far fetched. The suggestion that Fake Electors, because they were working at the direction of the president , were somehow federal employees, i mean, does that pass muster in terms of Defense Strategy in your mind . No, its completely merit less. There are a few things that are important here. First of all, these were not duly elected electors, or duly appointed electors. So, this would be akin to a person impersonating a police officer, committing some kind of Tortious Actor Criminal Act then claiming some kind of qualified constitutional immunity, because theyre impersonating a police officer, just doesnt work that way. But in addition to that, electors are empowered by state law, not federal law. So, states could, for example, point theyre electors through the state legislature. Weve had a whole entire debate about that. Thats within the states prerogative to do. In every state, and in georgia, we have used state law to appoint electors to reflect the Majority Will of the popular vote. So, their agents of state law, not federal law. So, theres a lot of Different Reasons why these removal motions dont make sense. They dont make sense for mark meadows, they dont really make sense for a number of other individuals who are trying to make these motions. But they really dont make sense for these Fake Electors, Who Are Never Empowered By state law or federal law in the first place. Yeah, this sense, joyce, i get from pretrial motions, a quiet desperation, perhaps borne out of questionable legal strategy. I do wonder, we had some reporting from cnn, that sydney powell continues to be, reportedly, investigated the Special Counsels team. Where she is an unnamed coconspirator in the federal indictment around january 6th and the efforts to subvert the election. Shes also in the dominion in Smartmatic Voting Machine cases. Shes fighting a war on many legal fronts. And when we talk about the pressure some of these codefendants are under, to flip, to start cooperating, i mean, how does that ratchet up the temperature that she must be feeling . And the pressure that she must be under . Yeah, its a great question, alex. She is certainly a defendant who has to be feeling that pressure right now. Shes looking at an enormous amount of time in georgia. That she would spend in state prison there. I think it would be very surprising if jack smith wasnt serious about achieving accountability with the unnamed, unindicted coconspirators. Given the seriousness of the crimes that hes charged the former president with. The fact that shes still under investigation, and that its in connection with this fraudulent fundraising, and that apparently, theres been now some effort on jack smiths part to link the fraudulent fundraising, using allegations of voter fraud in 2020, which were, of course, untrue, and using that to fund these incursions into Computer Systems in four different states that were used to count votes, its really pretty stunning. If the government is successful in putting a case against powell together on those grounds, i think she will feel an enormous amount of pressure to flip. If there, frankly, still interested in having her as a cooperating witness . Thats the question, has she waited too long. Anthony michael kreis, all joyce vance, always great to speak with you. Both thanks for time. We have much more ahead tonight, including the ways in which donald trump is spinning his legal woes into campaign gold. And what joe biden is gonna do about it. First, more than 1100 people have been charged in connection with january 6th. More than 300 have been sentenced. Today, one of those people just broke a record. Were gonna explain, thats next. Hat next rsv can be a dangerous virus. [sneeze]. For those 60 and older. Its not just a cold. And if youre 60 or older. You may be at increased risk of hospitalization. [coughing]. From this highly. Contagious virus. Not all dangers come with warning labels. Talk to your pharmacist or doctor. About getting vaccinated against rsv today. Your brain is an amazing thing. But as you get older, it naturally begins to change, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. 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Its happening. Today, some history was made. Enrique tarrio, the former leader of the proud boys, a man whos been convicted of seditious conspiracy, Enrique Tarrio, was sentenced to 22 years in prison. That is a record in terms of sentencing for the january 6th insurrection. Mr. Tarrios sentence is 11 years less than the 33 years prosecutors sought, it is four years more than the sentence handed down for the leader of the oath keepers, stewart rhodes. Set to serve 18 years behind bars. Before the judge made that decision today, tarrios attorneys had asked the court for leniency, since tarrio is not actually in d. C. During the attack. He had been arrested two days prior for a separate incident. Prosecutors rebutted that defense, saying tarrios absence did nothing to detract from the severity of his conduct, because he was a general rather than a soldier. And they explain that tarrio had actively recruited the full soldiers who breached the capitol that day. The judge in this appeared to agree with them, and this general is now set to enter a federal predatory. Every member of the proud boys whos been sentenced for sedition, every member thus far, has laid the blame for what happened that day squarely on former president trump. Which begs the question, if Enrique Tarrio received the steepest sentence as the general of the proud boys, what should we expect for mr. Trump, the proud boys alleged ultimate leader here . And the man who famously told them to stand back and stand by . Joining me now is kyle cheney, a Senior Legal Affairs reporter for politico, and whos at the courthouse today, where Enrique Tarrio was sentenced. Hes been closely following the very intricate web of january 6th cases. Kyle, great to have you here. I was struck by the unstinting nature of the judges remarks in advance of the sentencing, and ill just read this one excerpt to you. This is from judge kelly. I dont know how close the government argues to me, how close we were to not completing the transfer of power. I dont know how close we came or didnt come, but i dont have to conclude how close to say what happened was extremely serious and a disgrace. Can you tell me what was like to hear that in person, or in the court today, and whether or not that was a surprise to hear the judge so dismissive of the of the idea that Enrique Tarrio was somehow contrite in all of this . Right, well, it wasnt totally a surprise, this is actually the combination of five sentencings of Enrique Tarrio and his codefendants who are all at least charged with sedition in four of the five were convicted of statistics conspiracy. Weve heard what the judges had to say on the attack. He thinks this is the emeritus tradition of the peaceful transfer of power ended that day. He thinks we have to take generations to rebuild it. So, he reiterated that to tarrio. But he had some extra words for tarrio, who he viewed, and the prosecutors viewed, as maybe singularly responsible, more than any other person, for what actually happened on january 6th. Yeah, when you talk about the singularity of Enrique Tarrio, i think the defense was obviously trying to make the case that because he wasnt there, he was somehow less guilty of all of this. Can you talk a little bit about Enrique Tarrios posture in advance of the sentencing . He seemed to, i, mean multiple times, he issued his own mea culpas, saying i am sorry, ive tried to hold myself a twist i hire standard, i failed, i failed miserably. Tell me a little bit more about how you saw his character change as the sentencing got closer . Sure. Its interesting, its the first time youve really heard him speak in these terms since january 6th certainly. You know, i think he sounded generally contrite, with the judge pointed out, you can say youre sorry to all the right people, he didnt say were sorry for you can describe what you actually did. Throughout the trial, and throughout the post trial period, hes downplayed his involvement. I wasnt there. I wasnt in communication with people. Didnt really confront what the jury convicted him of, which is trying to oppose the government by force. The judge wanted to hear him talk more about owning up to that, what he was actually convicted of by jurors. So, it was remarkable to hear that contrition in his voice. Also, the judge noted, Enrique Tarrio got where he was with his charisma and ability to convince people to do things they wouldnt otherwise do. I think he was expecting a good speech from tarrio. And didnt really let it affect the ultimate sentence. There was an enhancement for terrorism in the sentencing, right . Is that correct . Yes. It to the proud boys sentence got that enhancement. That really reflects that one of the crimes they were convicted of, destruction of government property, is considered a federal crime of terrorism. It comes almost automatically with that kind of enhancement. It also reflects the gravity of the crime, the judge said, look, this is not oklahoma city. This is not 9 11. In terms of the violence in the may him in the bloodshed. But it does have a different kind of character, because it attacked the functioning of government. Yeah, i think that there are a lot of reasons to be following whats happened to these folks whove been convicted of seditious conspiracy, and those who are still awaiting trial. Because of obviously what the implications were for american democracy in holding folks accountable. Also, because the person who is allegedly at the top of this pyramid, donald trump, was also not at the capitol when the insurrection actually happened. But was very much seen as directing movements, allegedly, in the cases made by numerous folks, and the reporting that we have. What, i mean, what lessons, its a mistake to think of the proud boys and oath keepers trials as separate and apart from donald trump. Certainly, defer prosecutors, investigators working on the. This is the federal governments response to january 6th, and Donald Trumps looming case and his living trial is very much a part of that. So, as you look towards the way in which these judges have been remarkably swift and serious and severe in their sentencing, has it caused you to think differently about what might await donald trump . Well, in a sense, was facing donald trump, two sides of january 6th. What happened on the ground, and the ground up attack on the capitol. And then theres the top down stuff, which is donald trump and his allies organizing in trying to subvert the election. And those two, we dont really know if they really meet in the middle. But there are two sides of the same coin, in terms of the threat to democracy that day, and in the weeks and months before that. So, donald trump isnt charged with seditious conspiracy. But he was an ever present figure in the proud boys trial, someone they did say, you know, they probably wouldnt have been there if it were for him. That was certainly a running theme, and something that judges will think about if and when trump is ever convicted of any of the crimes hes facing now, for his election efforts. Its the same court, right . That trump will have his trial in, is that correct . Different judge, same federal courthouse, yes. We will be watching, kyle cheney, thanks for great reporting, as always. Kyle. Thank you. Still ahead this evening, what does a man with zero Felony Counts do when is likely opponent in a president ial race has 91 of them . How joe biden will joe biden in the age of donald trump. 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Talk to your doctor or pharmacist about arexvy today. Rsv . Make it arexvy. Think hairsprays stuck in one dimension . Think again. Flex any style. With hairspray that flexes with you. New tresemme hairspray. Slavery is as old as time. And its taken place in every corner of the world. Even amongst people i just left. Being taken as a slave is better than being killed, no . I dont see the problem. Okay. So, if you are not already familiar with praeger you kids, it is conservative propaganda styled as Educational Material. Created for children by the unaccredited rightwing advocacy group, praeger you. Craig or you kids entered florida classrooms earlier this year, as the state became the first in the nation to approve pressure you kids videos, like that one with the animated Christopher Columbus talking about slavery. As supplemental Educational Material for grades k through 12. Now, it is heading to more classrooms. As of today, there is a second state now working with praeger you to bring this content into public schools. Oklahomas Department Of Education has Just Announced an Ongoing Partnership with traeger you kids. In a statement, the department said, praeger you will help ensure high quality material, rich in american history, and values. It will be available to our teachers and students. State superintendent ryan walter spoke with the ceo of prager u, marissa strike, in an interview that was published today on the prager u website. I cannot be more excited to get this content in our classrooms, to get this understanding of american history. Without any indoctrination, but actually the facts of what happened. So that our kids can or principles this country was founded on. If you recall the name ryan walters, if that name sounds distantly familiar, it is because he is the state superintendent who, earlier this summer, had to walk back his comments that appeared to suggest that race was not a factor in the 1921 tulsa massacre. It is not just mr. Walters, it is not just the states of oklahoma in florida. Pressure prager u has been peddling this proper candid to Education Department across the country, and conservative leaders have been receptive. Officials in texas and New Hampshire recently considered using the material in their classrooms, though those particular attempts have been tabled so far. And there have already been documented uses of pressure you materials in california and idaho and ohio. So, stay tuned on this one. We have a lot more ahead, joe biden do about trumps 91 Felony Charges. And his millions in mugshot merchandise. Franklin, four of the revealing new account of the Biden White House, is gonna join me next. Stay with us. 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Hey david. Connect with an advisor to create your personalized plan. Lets find the right investments for your goals okay, great. J. P. Morgan wealth management. Donald trump has wasted no time in turning his georgia mugshot into a multi Million Dollar fund raising strategy. His Reelection Campaign has slapped it on coffee mugs, tshirts, posters theres nothing like reaching for a cold six back in coming face to face with the former president s mugshot. At least when im on the beach. Aside from the merch madness, the campaign is now emailing supporters and asking them to donate 35 to help save america from joe biden. In return for that support, a limited edition mugshot poster, signed by the former president. But supporters can also just go to the Campaign Website and buy what appears to be the same signed poster for 7 less. The difference in price there may be because of the postage required to send emails. Wait a second. In any case, Trumps Campaign says it has raised 9 million since that mugshot was taken. It is celebrating trumps status as the top choice in the 2024 republican field among nearly 60 of gop primary voters. Despite the fact that hes facing 91 Felony Charges across four different jurisdictions. So, how does his opponent, joe biden, the current president and candidate, manage trump and his Mugshot Coolers and his laundry list of indictments. Most urgently, how does joe biden, the president , govern in a post trump world, and maybe even a pretrump won two. I have just the right person to ask. Joining me now, franklin forbes, staff writer at the atlantic, author of the new book, out today. The last politician, inside Joe Bidens White house in the struggle for americas future, which is an illuminating, compelling account of the first two years of the biden presidency. Frank, great to see. Congratulations on publishing today. Thank you for joining me on set. My friend. Thank you. First, i kind of wonder what you gleaned, i mean, were gonna talk a lot about biden the president. But as a Political Animal, his appetite for going into this race again for the umpteenth time, with potentially even more on the line. And just how ferocious that appetite is, and how much is borne out of a sense of duty. Well, i think he beat donald trump in 2020. And if trump wasnt running this election, if trump had, was incarcerated, or if trump had decided that he was gonna hang it up, then im sure bidens calculus, going into this next election, would be probably a little bit different. But because he views this as an existential thing, because hes got this track record, and because, i think, in his own mind, hes arrived at this conclusion that hes the safest bet in a race. Does he think hes the safest bet . Im pretty sure he does. Because its a sort of self agreement, not self anger dicing, a sulfa flagellating thing. Im the safest guy. Therefore, im gonna take up the mantle. Yeah. I mean, people who do the job that he does, inevitably come to view themselves as being indispensable on some level. Right . And, you know, i think its really interesting to consider, what would be the counterfactual if biden in the middle of his term had decided, he wasnt gonna, run it have this freeforall of a democratic primary. Who knows what way that would go. Who knows what issue that would dredge up for the democrats . Who knows how they would run against the current president. The president makes a calculation about running for reelection, when they make that announcement, how that has the implications it has for the domestic agenda as it unfolds. And the real interesting thing for joe biden, and what i chronicle in my book, hes had, i think, a pretty successful first term. Hes gotten a lot done. But his legacy, at the end of the day, turns on the question of how he performs in the 2024 election. Absolutely. I got to think, as biden, who seemed so unwavering in his fundamental belief of the Goodness Indecency of the american people, that seems like its part of his dna at this point. Its actually been a journey for him. An interesting part of the story. When he came into office, his inauguration happens in the shadow of january 6th. In the very scene of the insurrection. I, mean just if you go back to that moment, how crazy it is to get considered that he inherited this nation at that moment in time. Part of his agenda was trying to cool the nation down. And we were dominated by politics, and he intentionally, i think, started to recede a little bit. In to allow the nation to breathe again. It feels like that wasnt just a sort of posture he adopted, but it almost felt like a directive to his cabinet members. The fact, for example, that Merrick Garland didnt try to prosecute, you know, there is not at least from the reporting we have, a robust attempt inside the opera salons of the promise of justice, to hold accountable the generals of the january 6th insurrection. Until congress put some pressure on the doj. Seems to be an extension of let that chapter fade in the rearview and relitigated, and yet, here it is on his doorstep as he makes another run for the presidency . He wouldnt refer to trump by name, initially. Trump was voldemort. He was the former guy. In his name should up invoked. In that, was his tragedy for a while. Its also important remember, it happens well hes trying to get the nation to take the vaccine. Its impossible to disentangle that from the pandemic response. And his big challenge was persuading the and persuadable. Then, by the end of his first year, he, his view evolves. From the one where hes talking about the better angels to one where hes making this big push on Voting Rights. And he compares the opponents of Voting Rights to bull connor. In effect, comparing joe manchin, mitch mcconnell, all of these people who are just colleagues and friends to bull connor. He takes this much more aggressive bleak view of the american condition at that moment. But would you, and i know you cant jump inside the mind of joe biden, and i remember that speech where he really starts calling out mega republicans. But hes still doing this thing where hes trying to access the poison from the border quality politics, where he suspecting magaism and trumpism as a virus but it has overtaken the host. But it seems he Still Believes there is a fundamental decency in america. And a fundamental decency even inside the Republican Party. Is that fairly accurate . You cant be president of the norm states and believe and the Republican Party, specifically. There he is being careful. And to give him credit, he held out hope that he could pass a partisan things, working with this group of ten or so senators, who are ambivalent about trump, clearly behind the scenes wanted to be rid of trump, but reluctant to challenge him in public. So biden spoke to talk about the ultra maga republicans, thats his phrase he resorted to emphasize that distinction. And indeed, after coining the term and framing things in that way, he got the ships bill passed, Gun Legislation passed, the packed bill a lot of stuff passed. We have a lot to talk about, so were going to take a quick break. But i want to ask you how joe biden, who Still Believes in the decency of the American Public and the republicans who are not ultra maga, that he is running neck and neck in the poll, 46 , with donald trump. So stay tuned, we have much more to discuss. Included what a former top aide to President Biden once had to Admonish Biden He was president and not prime minister. 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We make money from ads, but they dont follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. Here is a quote from new bullets position by the first two years of the brighton presidency. If there was a lesson that President Biden extracted from the first year of his presidency, it was that he had spent too much time trapped in some torrential. Of course, he loved it. Ron klain once felt compelled to chides him, youre not prime minister, in his quest to extract biden from the legislative need. But bottom painfully arrived at the realization that his deep involvement was time consuming and, worse, kind of proud of. By taking the lead and negotiations, the president elevated the stakes. He pressurized the conversations, when actually in space to breathe. And there was no what he was risking deep involvement and another round of negotiation that could go sour and make him look like a chump. Franklin flores stood with me tonight. Frank, looking look at trumps something no politician ever want to be, but i was surprised they have pointed and how focused biden was, as someone who seems so selfless, of course hes a Political Animal but he was focused on his own reputational damage it has his presidency. It is his legacy at stake there. And in the middle of the negotiations of the build back better package, where he was oh so close to getting joe manchin over the line, and expand the social safety net, Making Profound Generational Transformation it flopped and this spectacular fashion. Manchin went on Fox News On Sunday and pulled the plug. So i think that moment is a relatively selfless moment because biden was so deep in the weeds of those negotiations, he brought the senators into the oval office, they were there for two or three hours at a time as he tried to churn them, we will then, bring them aboard. So it was a really difficult thing. No Majority Leader would be able to pull it off on their own. And he took the lead, became the face of those negotiations. So i think pulling back, it is one of the things that surprised me about biden, is that there are these moments, i thought of him i didnt have the highest regard for him. I had every confessional washington the of the guy, that he was the Senatorial Lazard who was three naive in his faith in bipartisanship. And watching him bob and weave and navigate these episodes, i was actually kind of impressed by his ability to shelf his ego, when thats what the strategy required. To some degree, he kind of goes back and forth in terms of that strategy, . Right because did silent negotiations, hes on the phone with Kevin Mccarthy and its nobody else. That is the president and the speaker of the house trying to avoid financial calamity. So clearly he believes that sometimes its warranted, and he loves. If that was actually, and thats an instance of him being really good at it. Sure, he likes the strategy when it works for him. I mean, what he did fear was he brought mccarthy in and bidens strength as a politician is that hes got, its a guy whos very, hes able to read the psychology of the person sitting across from him. And pretty quickly he was able to sized mccarthy up and see this is where the guys and securities are, at this as what his bottom line is. If i could just see mccarthy out to the white house driveway, to look like hes owning the negotiations in public, then on going to own the negotiations in private. I do wonder if you think he still stands by, if he still has empathy for a man who is basically kowtowing to the right flank of his party, that is suggesting Impeachment Hearings for President Biden. Do you think that empathy extends to this day . I think empathy is maybe the wrong word. Humanity . It is the ability to see things from the perspective. So you are dealing with xi or any number of foreign leaders. Modi, jerks, terrible human beings and most rigorous. You still have to deal with those people. So you still have to be able to kind of figure out how their minds. Work do you think that empathy, that ability to understand the workings of unsavory characters minds, extends to don trump . I do have to ask about the question that i teased go to break, which is, when biden sees himself tied neck and neck and a poll, and 40 6 46 with trump an image up for possibly four, of course this poll is just a snapshot in a moment of time, i would put him away on it, but i would assume that i cant imagine being joe biden who has worked so hard to be so diligent, and pressure of institutions and see himself in a head to head against summit with not a Felony Counts and the American Public is split on the middle on the two of. And thats got to be a hard thing to look. After you think he understands, do you think in some way, he respects trumps appeal to the . Base i just wonder how you think no, i think that at the end of the day, he thinks that trump is kind of a bully. I dont think there is any hedging on that. Hes been consistent and clear on that. Yes, but he is also consistent and clear about trying to win back parts of the Republican Party that have always been forsaken . Yeah, and i mean thats being his strategy. And i, well, as we told about the way in which he governs in the next two years, and maybe the next six if he is lucky and wins reelection, do you think that the Biden White House has learned any particular lesson about how to sell its message to the American Public . Given the pretty outstanding number of legislative accomplishments its head with ethans pup majorities. So this weekend he gives labor day speech, with the first time that he frames things and a populist sort of way. One of the mysteries to me about the biden presidency is that so much of their agenda delivers on all of these things that trump has talked about. Whether it is trade or go unheard against monopoly, or an infrastructure, he hasnt frame things and a waiver he paints the Republican Party as an elitist, phony baloney party. And this is the first time that hes done. That and it does connect at the end of the day to trump believing he is above the law. The whole thing is a scam. And biden has 2 himself as the one whos genuinely delivered on all the stuff that they talked about. Well, he has a lot of talking and speaking to do. I couldnt even get to the part about the dobbs decision, but that is something that democrats want to run on. You detail the real crisis of conscious that biden has as a catholic about going full bore on reproductive freedoms. I think that his changed over time. When dobbs dropped, i think it took him a long time. This is consistent with some of the themes that were talking about. I think it took a while to understand the radicalism of the job decision and the radicalism of the Republican Party, as an approach abortion. Were not in the 19 80s, 1990s debate here about abortion. This is about eradication. So it took the case that tenyearold girl to really, in ohio to drive it home for biden. I dont think hes had too many doubt since. Then franklin foer, thanks for making the time. The last politician, inside Shows Buttons what house and the struggle for americas future, thats out now. Now its time for the last word with lawrence odonnell. Good evening alex, and i have a feeling you didnt make it to burning man this year. Like you usually do. So you know what, im going to get to ask neal katyal about it because he was there. No yes, neal katyal. Does he still have not on his shoes . He does. Our official burning man correspondent. And he was attacked for going to burning man by one of donald