Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240704

Like death valley, and palm springs where there is not a lot of topsoil to absorb that water. Flooding is going to be a major thing. Three inches is all you need for your car to float away. So people have these suvs and they think just dont it is not worth it. Stay home. Cancel your appointments. Watch it on tv and wait until it passes. We will see you next week. You too, my friend. There is news tonight regarding donald trump surrendering in Fulton County on charges related to his efforts to overturn the 2020 election in georgia. Nbc news is reporting that donald trump is expected to surrender on thursday, or friday of next week. That is right up against the deadline of noon friday, august 25th, which was set by the District Attorney fani willis. This is according to three senior Law Enforcement officials who stress and nothing is official yet. Plans are still being finalized. When he does turn himself in he will have his fingerprints taken, and for the First Time Since donald trump started wrapping up criminal indictments, he will have a mugshot taken. Abc news is reporting that Donald Trumps attorneys are expected to meet with officials from the District Attorneys office to negotiate the terms of his bond package early this week. He also has big news tonight into the investigation of the january 6th attack on the capitol. More than two and a half years after a mob of Trump Supporters stormed the capitol, after ten plus hours of investigation by the January 6th Committee, and Special Counsel, jack smiths investigators, we are still learning more about that day in d. C. I want you to take a close look at this video, and i want you to focus on the man in the red maga hat. The one that we have got spot shadowed for you. Now, you may not recognize him, but that is Kenneth Chesebro. A lawyer connected to the Trump Campaign who was allegedly one of the architects of the socalled Fake Electors plot. Chesebro appears to have been referred to in Special Counsel jack smiths indictment of the former president as unindicted coconspirator, number five. There he is. However, he was not so lucky and District Attorney williss investigation. He is one of the other 18 individuals who was actually charged along donald trump this week. Unindicted coconspirator. That was first unearthed, this story, by cnn and later confirmed by the New York Times. The man nbc news believed to be chesebro can be seen Walking Around the Capitol Grounds in the entourage of the prominent conspiracy theorist, alex jones. At no point in time does he appear to enter the capital itself. Lawyers for Kenneth Chesebro declined to comment when they were approached about the video. It is worth noting that when he was questioned by the house January 6th Committee about his whereabouts from december 2020, through the first week of january 2021, it seems like a simple question, chesebro pled the fifth. Chesebros the presence was at the capitol and it is important, it is crucial, because this represents the first known connection between the people who led the legal attempts to serve the election, and, sorry to subvert the election, and the rioters who were on the ground that day. In other words, the firewall between the suits and the boos appears to be breaking down thanks to Kenneth Chesebro. This is the first known connection between the two pro trump factions. Listen to this, from the New York Times, quote, until now there appears to be different there appeared to be different tentacles of the effort to keep mr. Trump in power, that had not overlapped. But mr. Chesebro hinted at those connections in an email exchange with john eastman. Another lawyer who was instrumental in the plan to pressure mister pence with the Fake Electors scheme. In late december, 2020, the two lawyers discussed how to get a case before the Supreme Court. Mr. Chesebro told mr. Eastman, as they discussed filing illegal action, that in terms of the highest court, the quote, odds of action before january 6th will become more favorable if the justices start to fear that there will be wild chaos on january 6th unless they rule by then, either way, and quote. That is a story. Joining us now, the former United States attorney and professor at the university of alabama law school. Jim kirschner is a former federal prosecutor and the host of the Justice Matters podcast. They are both msnbc legal analysts. Good evening to both of you. Joyce, tell me about this, we have wondered for a long time as these cases of the people who were in front of the capitol, and inside the Capitol On January 6th move forward, what the connections are and have been and were with those people on the other side of pennsylvania avenue. Those people who were scheming to overturn this election. Now, this guy, Kenneth Chesebro, yet another name that a whole lot of people did not know a couple of months ago it turns out that he was there on the ground on january 6th Walking Around. What do you make of it . It is an interesting place for a harvard educated lawyer to find himself on january 6th. And as a prosecutor, your job is to ask questions. This video makes me ask a lot of questions. The first one is whether or not jack smith was already aware of this. It seems likely that he may well have been ahead of the media on this one. And may have already sorted this out. But there are a lot of subsidiary questions here. Alex jones is in many ways a like the proud boys and oath keepers. The most violent elements on january 6th. So now that youve got him here youve got to ask those questions. Why is he there. Is there any sort of linkage between the lawyers that he is working with and the more violent elements. That is all on the table once you see this video. And then there is a final thing that i am curious about here, that donald trump tweet where he says be there, we will be wild in reference to january 6th. That repetition of the word wild that chose pro also uses. It makes you wonder what is going on here. I want to ask you about this whole business of cheeseborough and eastman talking about the Supreme Court and causing the court to act out of fear that there may be violence. That is outside the realm of the sort of thing that lawyers should be doing. Later in the show we will talk about all the lawyers who now need lawyers because they are indicted or unindicted conspiracy conspirators and these various charges. But that seems, i just hadnt thought about that as a legal strategy. Lets do x, the judges will fear violence and mayhem, and we will do something. It is sort of like lets take a legal hostages. It is such a Deep Perversion of the law, of the use of the court system, maybe if there is enough upheaval. If there is enough danger and potential harm to people that i suppose in and around the capital or more broadly across the United States, maybe the courts will buckle and will decide cases based on that fear, rather than based on the facts and the law and the president. I think that is deeply incriminating of guys like chesebro and eastman, and i do think this Cross Pollination that we now have between the insurrection, and the suits of the insurrection is a really interesting fact and it makes me wonder, when we see the likely next indictment by jack smith. The reason i say the likely next indictment is because jack smith, as we all know, informed the public that there are six coconspirators who committed crimes with donald trump, perhaps at the direction, and for the benefit of donald trump. The last thing that jack smith is going to do is inform us that the six individuals and that is why we will soon seen these boroughs and i did and it will be interesting to see if maybe, there will be charges on the capitol that day, he was in restricted areas, which may give rise to a relatively low level criminal charge. I want you to stick around, i want to bring in the discussion, Eric Swalwell of california, who was a manager in the second impeachment of donald trump. Good to see you, thank you for being with us. You are engaged in a civil suit with donald trump. Donald trump is in the business of charging him, he can do that, if he can get through all the papers, he can get through all the evidence, he just said that there is 11 and a half million pages of documents and the january 6th so he would like this to be postponed until 2026. Interesting choice of date. It is after the election of 2024. And he is hoping that he will be president again. So we had all this stuff about how you couldnt really indict a sitting president. Then donald trump is no longer the president. And you cant apparently sue him or indict him or prosecute him based on how hes too busy running for president. Once he becomes president again then you cant go after him for being president again. It seems like a legal strategy for him. Justice is no longer sleeping on donald trump. This guy has been a stranger to accountability almost his entire life. He always plays on justices side of the field. And he defines the terms and too often in the past, i Think Prosecutors have flinched. That is not the case anymore. That is why i brought my suit, which is to make sure that he means accountability. That is why jacks mitt and other prosecutors are seeking accountability, as well. Heres the accountability, how it is all going to play, ill jump donald trump is going to get he always wants to try to convict people in the Public Square without giving them any due process. Hes going to get all the due process, hes going to get every protection under, law and whatever happens to donald trump, it is going to come from his peers. And that is why i think it is going to be so sweet when he needs accountability, that he will get the justice that he has never been willing to give to somebody else. What is your sense of your lawsuit and what is likely to happen with it . Well, we brought a lawsuit for what he did on january 6th, aiming a mob at the capitol, stopping and we won in the Federal District court. Of course, he appealed to the court of appeals and we are waiting for a decision now. And if we went there, we are expected to start getting discovery and evidence and much more than january six, or anyone else who has been able to get, because i am bringing this in my own personal capacity. So, we will not be roadblock by many of the privileges that donald trump has asserted and been successful with. Again, it is entirely about accountability for a man, for too long that has escaped it. You were an impeachment manager, you have a lot of information. The January 6th Committee got more information with more witnesses. We assume that jack smith used all that information to bring his indictment. This chesebro thing is intriguing to me. Theres been a lot of discussion about the fact that theres been a lot of low level people that have gotten through that court in washington and it was hard to make connections between the decisionmakers and the boots on the ground. What do you think about this . It is important that we dont just go after the hustle. We also go after the muscle. Glenn said the boots and the suits. Now you are seeing that jack smith is tying it all together. This is the greatest crime ever committed in american history. Against our constitution, against our democracy, against our viewers votes. And no other crime in america has had this many defendants and convictions. For the sake of where we go next, it is what we give to our children, every person who tried to steal the vote away from your viewers must be held accountable. Joyce, one of the things that we heard is that jack smith succeeded again, over the objections of the trump team, and getting access to Donald Trumps twitter account. Clearly, those of us who lived through it, you know, we woke up and went to sleep with Donald Trumps tweets. But his notorious for not really emailing, and not really texting himself, and putting a barrier between him and everyone else. What do you believe jack smith gets from Donald Trumps twitter account . It is hard to know if you actually got valuable evidence that it was a step that you have to take for all the reasons that you just set out, ali. We know that trump didnt tweet, did he communicate using direct messages . Where their Draft Messages in their . Did trump have another account that he was using under a different name that could be shunned to have communications or even participate in some of the rightwing messaging . A lot of interesting information that you can get by executing this sort of an order to get information from twitter. And also, Gee Location Data On Where Trump was when he was accessing his accounts. What sorts of devices were accessing them, where their people other than trump accessing, were there any internal communication between those people . So it could be a treasure trove, you could also come up empty handed as a prosecutor, you have to make the attempt. Let me ask you about whether it is congressman swalwells suit or whether it is judge cannons case or judge chutkans case or the case in manhattan. What are these judges have to think . In theory, they all want to be fair, they all want to be fair in all of their cases. But everyone is looking at this. And there is a political argument being made by donald trump, day in and day out, about how this is politicized and he has got a campaign to run. How do they make decisions about delaying, giving everybody enough time for discovery, and being as fair as they can knowing that the eyes of the world, the legal world, the entire world well be on every one of their decisions and moves . I believe that they are all going to preside fairly, impartially, and independently. But i have to say in all honesty, i have some concerns with judge aileen cannons track record. Once you have an Appellate Court rule that you abused her discretion and in essence, did something that the law did not allow, and you did it to the extreme benefit of not just the litigant, but the litigant who gave you the Lifetime Appointment to the federal bench, i have concerns there. I hope she rallies, and i hope that she shows herself to be an independent, fair, and impartial jurist. I think that most of these judges will let all of the white noise roll off and they will sought the wood in front of them. The biggest challenge, i think, is one of scheduling. Because when you have so many pending cases involving largely one defendant, it becomes an extraordinary challenge. When i was prosecuting in d. C. , i would often have defendants with multiple cases, and what sometimes would happen is the Defense Attorneys would play one case against another. They would say, you know what . Im too busy over here to really prepare for the child over their, and then they would go into the other courtroom and say i am too busy over there to prepare for the trial over here. I think that all of the judges will have to keep a close eye on donald trump and his legal team to make sure that there are no games being played on the scheduling front, and i very much look forward to see which of these trials is the first one to actually go, if i had to guess, i would say that it is likely to be the one that is being presided over by Tanya Chutkan in washington d. C. , i suspect, i know soon enough, we will see an early 2024 trial in that case. Of course, she mentioned if he keeps on doing things that might look intimidating, for the jury or anyone involved in the trial, hes going to make shes going to make it happen faster so that there is less time for that. Carson swalwell, you know, given the reaction of your republican colleagues in the house, you would think that the only people threatened on january 6th were democrats. Because nobody is taking the exit ramp, no one is taking the opportunity of these indictments, i invite all of them to read it, if they havent done, so read both of them, if they havent done so, to say enough is enough. I do not want to continue to invest my political future in donald trump. But it is really just not happening. No, ali, in fact, my republican colleagues, every single Daydonald Trump did. They are just explicitly condoning, rather than condemning what he did. The American People know better. We are going to meet this test, we are going to meet it in our Justice System with the jurors and with the ballot box because this isnt about republicans versus democrats, this is democrats, republicans, and independents who are part of Team Community who believe in freedom, and who oppose fascism and lies and violence over voting. And Team Community is going to be a team chaos whether it is in a courtroom, or at the ballot box, we will meet this text. Good to see you, we always appreciate your time. Joyce and glenn, i want you to stick with me, we have a lot to get through for this hour. Up next, make attorneys, Get Attorneys. It started as a joke between any lawyer that decided to work for the president in the maga but fani willis indicted five trump connected lawyers and one trump doj lawyer. We are going to talk about that, next. Ha next agerelated Macular Degeneration may lead to severe vision loss and if youre taking a multivitamin alone, you may be missing a critical piece. Preservision. Preservision areds 2 contains the only clinically proven Nutrient Formula recommended by the National Eye Institute to help reduce the risk of moderate to advanced amd progression. Preservision is backed by 20 years of clinical studies. So ask your doctor about adding preservision and fill in a missing piece of your plan. Like i did with preservision. Now with ocusorb better absorbing nutrients. And there he is. Chaz. 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You know i read these indictments when they come out and you could download it, it is a podcast called prosecuting donald trump. One of the things that stood out to me in both the january 6th indictment and in this one, why are so many of trumps alleged Coconspirators Lawyers . It is one of the unthinkable questions. The professor wrote, quote, The Trump Case shows lawyers not only failing to make sure that their government clients operate within the bounds of our democratic system, but stretching to help those clients craft ways to subvert it, end quote. A legal man over professional ethics poses a profound threat to american democracy. Five of Donald Trumps lawyers and one Justice Department lawyer in Trumps Administration have all been charged with violating georges Racketeering Law In Addition to a litany of other charges, individually for their efforts to steal the 2020 election. Rudy giuliani, sydney powell, jenna ellis, were all part of depending on who you asked, a task force, and quote, or trumps gaggle of lawyers who touted trumps election lies and hearings with state officials. They filed dozens of lawsuits that joe biden won. All those lawsuits were dismissed. Jeffrey clark, this guy, embrace sending a letter to officials, not embraced, he wrote the letter that he wanted to listen to officials in georgia and other states telling them that the Justice Department had concerns about fraud in their elections, which simply was not true. John eastman, and Ken Cheeseborough were key architects in creating and implementing the Fake Electors scheme that included pressuring Vice President mike pence to reject the certification of the votes on january 6th. The attorney, John Eastmans conduct was so egregious that it led the white house senior adviser, eric herschmann, to tell him this. Now i am going to give you the best free legal advice you are ever getting in your life. Get a great criminal defense lawyer, you will need it. The list of Trump Attorneys who now need to Get Attorneys continues to grow. As does the list of Trump Lawyers facing Ethics Complaints for their efforts to overturn the 2020 election for donald trump. Rudy giuliani is facing disbarment in washington post, after having his law license suspended in new york. This guy was the mayor of new york. He was the Attorney General for the state of new york. Jeffrey clark, seeking to pause an Ethics Violation case against him in washington d. C. Until the georgia case is resolved. John eastman tried that, but last night, a judge in california denied his request to delay his disbarment proceedings, which is set to resume next week. The legal troubles for trumps lawyers are mounting and it seems to are now than ever, the accountability may be coming. Joining us now is debra protein, constitutional law professor at cardoza law school, and this fall, she is going to join the Princeton University as the director of the law and Public Policy problem at the international affairs. Joyce vance and Glenn Kirschner are so with us. Thanks again for the two of you for staying. Good to see you, thank you for being with us. It is kind of remarkable, one thing that comes up clearly in the january 6th indictment is not as clear in the georgia indictment, is that there was a moment at which some of trumps lawyers were coming up with ways to protect his interest in case any of these recounts or appeals actually went in his favor. In Case Wisconsin or pennsylvania or georgia or arizona, someone figured out that donald trump, you are entitled to these votes and maybe one. And then something happened, it changed into them understanding very clearly that that was not going to happen in any state into a scheme to get him elected despite the fact that they knew he won. It turned into illegality. How does not work for a lawyer when you realize that the advice you are giving your client is now actually going to be a crime. What happens . Well, it depends, there are a lot of ways that lawyers can run afoul. In this case, i want to distinguish two different kinds of problems. It is always an ethical problem, and often a criminal problem for a lawyer to help their client commit a crime. And toward the end of this thing that we saw play out of the 2020 election, that is really the role these lawyers were playing. But before they got to that point, they were actively, publicly, lying. And even if it is not a crime for somebody who is not a lawyer to tell a lie, for lawyers, lying to a court, lying to anybody in the course of a pending litigation of any kind is a violation of their professional ethical responsibilities, and that is why you are seeing these cases against lawyers, rightly proceed on to track, and really an exceptional cases, some of them are here, you have lawyers implicated in actual criminal wrongdoing. But the problem for the profession, and the problem for the rule of law and democracy starts well before that, and it starts when lawyers violate their ethics obligations, some of which are complicated. Others of which dont lie to the courts. And that is where this started here. These are all very serious charges, in both the indictments. But the one that always stands out to me is Jeffrey Clark. This was not just a lawyer, but an employee of the department of justice, who attempted, if one wants to say this isnt a coup or wasnt an attempted coup, you just have to look at what Jeffrey Clark was doing. He went so far as to go to his boss, the acting Attorney General, and say im going to be your new boss, because you wont do what donald trump wants to do a legally. He didnt use that word. Im just going to be your new boss. Towards the end of, it on the night of january 6th, you had Trump Attorneys saying, how about we just violate the electoral count act One More Time to buy some more time. These were actual actual crimes. These are not things that were in pursuit of the conspiracy, as they said in the georgia indictments so many times. These were actual things that lawyers and Government Employees were doing against the will of the people to possibly overthrow an election. And here, the stakes couldnt possibly be higher for the reasons you say. Its remarkable when you think about it, that lawyers have as much influence as they do in the executive branch. With the president , or anybody else. The president has done a more normal surmount of power. Why does he even bother talking to a lawyer at all. The answer is even for president like donald trump, at some level, they think people care about the law, and they do. So lawyers have, and or in a position of extraordinary influence. They can, and in the course of the 2020 election, some of them did play an incredibly Important Role in checking the president s worst impulses to overturn the election. But for the same reason, the same things that give them so much power to check the president , makes them incredibly powerful if they decide what they want to do is facilitate, make it easier for a wouldbe authoritarian to take power. Thats what happened here. Joyce, some weeks ago, or maybe months, ive lost track of it all. You and i were involved in conversations about whether it was important whether donald trump knew what he was doing was wrong, or not. Weve all sort of discovered that at some point, he knew he was breaking the law. Or hes alleged to know when he was breaking the law. Now that weve got all this evidence from these allegations from these two indictments, its not just that he knew, they were actively involved in constant discussions about ways to subvert the law. At the advice of his lawyers or with the consent of his lawyers, or in consultations with his lawyers. The conspiracy, the rico stuff starts to make sense to those of us who dont understand conspiracy, when you read all of the stuff they were doing together. Im more fascinated, i have no more questions about whether donald trump knew what he was doing was wrong, i just have a whole bunch of questions about why these people trained it any law school in america, unless they got their degrees out of a crackerjack box, how they were involved in the schemes . Sadly, they didnt have crackerjack law degrees. Some of them want to fine ivy league institutions. The lawyers were an essential part of the silent coup here. Everything was created by lawyers. Donald trump, i think, lacked the understanding of the constitution, and sort of the fringe legal theories that were gathered in here, to come up with the Fake Electors scheme. Of course there was the ongoing oppressive litigation. There was, in fact, this notion that fraud existed in elections and all. Which is a sort of time warner republican theme in elections. This notion that dead people are voting, or there are problems with absentee voting. Although the evidence says to the contrary. That sort of voting is very secure, theres not fraud that animates that level of elections. Trump seized on a theme that he likely picked up from the lawyers, and then ran it, or tried to run it into the end zone. But to your point, the lawyers are an Essential Point of the crime. Thats why we have rico charges in georgia. Thats why, when jack smith indicted, he charged what is called an 18 usc to 41 conspiracy. The conspiracy that trump and his lawyers were working together to deny all of us our civil rights, our right to vote. Its mindboggling. If i recall any of you because ive been accused of a crime, help me out, but dont join me in the whole operation. Its wild to read how this went down. Thanks to all three of you for joining us, deborah pearlstein, the coming up, the fbi is investigating threats against the District Attorney willis and the Fulton County sheriff. 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The Fulton County Sheriffs Department says its investigating online threats made against a grand jurors who indicted donald trump and 18 others earlier this week. The fbi is also looking into threats made against District Attorney, fani willis, Fulton County sheriff, petula bat, and their families. The fbi has arrested a 44yearold texas woman, abigail joe cheri, for allegedly threatening to kill federal judge, Tanya Chutkan. Who is overseeing the racist threatening voice mail was received on august 5th, two days after trump was arranged in washington. The New York Times reports miss cheri told the judge chutkan, quote, if trump doesnt get elected in 2024, we are coming to kill you, so tread lightly, batch. According to the complaint she added, you will be targeted personally, publicly, your family, all of it. And quote. After sheri was arrested, her father told the cohort, quote, she was a nonviolent alcoholic, and quote, who sits on her couch daily watching the news while drinking too many beers. After drinking, she often became agitated by the news and started calling people and threatening them. The papers said. Well heres what happened after some of that angry alcohol induced television viewing. Quote, federal agents visited miss cheri at her home three days after she left the message for judge Tanya Chutkan. She admitted shed called the judges chambers, but told the agents she had no plans to go to washington, and. Koch shry is now in jail and to her next hearing in mid september. Joining our discussion now is frank figliuzzi, former fbi assistant director of counter a telegenic. Hes an Msnbc National Security analyst. Frank, good to see you. This happens more often than we like to think, it happened a lot during the trump administration. Its one of the most worrisome things about his behavior. Because he sets the stage for this stuff. He talked about the fbi being crooked when they searched maralago. Next thing, a guy goes and shoots up an fbi office. But tell me how this goes down. Somebody leaves a message, its 2023, you can find out anybody who called anybody. Then the fbi knocks on this womans door. How does this go down . Indeed, the fbi gets this kind of information from a variety of ways. This woman was kind enough to leave a Voice Message which was equally traced to her and she does get the knock on the door. There are other ways information comes to the fbi. Certainly the man, craig robertson, who was shot dead by an fbi fit agent. That came from a tip from a social media platform. That happens. Theres also cases, ali, where members of a militia group, members of an ex dreamiest chat group who actually stop and go this guy is scaring even us. They contact one forsman. No matter how it comes to the bureau of federal agents, it reads to forensic evidence, the tracing of that call through call logs, et cetera. Then theres often an attempt to try to figure this out. Is this aspirational, person sitting on the couch drinking eating potato chips, melting off, not really going to do it. Or is there something more nefarious happening. Then they go to a prosecutor, and the Prosecutor Says youve got it. Youve met the statutory elements of communicating and interstate threat, and im willing to charge. Then we have handcuffs. How do you make that determination . Those of us who live in the public eye, and threats come fairly frequently. But as you say, the police or Law Enforcement have to make some determinations. This is nonsensical, do they threaten everybody the same way . Or might they do something . What is the thing that makes someone, if youre on the Receiving End of this thing, it all sounds pretty serious. There are probably people, judges, prosecutors, police, journalists, who brush a lot of it off as nonsense. How do you make those determinations, and has that changed in the last several years, given the vitriol that started at the top with the president of the United States . Yeah, let me start with the second half of that question. Which is yes, i do Think Prosecutors, because of the Threat Environment we are getting, in our little bit more flexible about what actually will meet the statutory elements. In the case of this texas woman, she met some of them, but not all of them. But enough. What are those elements . You look for specificity to target for, time, location, and method. So in the case of this woman, she actually was very specific about the target. It was going to be judge chutkan, and when . Well, it would be if trump got convicted. So youve got two of the elements right there. Thats enough. With regard to the guy in utah, he met them all. He checked off all of the boxes. Im coming to manhattan to kill alvin bragg, im going to do it with this specific gun. Im going to stand over you in the parking lot of the building, and im going to watch the whole in your head. That gets very specific. When someone is that specific, thats going to youre going to get the knock on the door, things wont go well for you. The beauty of our political system is that it still allows for debate and votes. And no need to resort to violence, yet we see more and more of this all the time. Frank, thank you for being with us. Frankfurt lucy. Coming up, federal investigators deployed in hawaii today to find out what caused the deadliest wildfire in u. S. History, as multiple lawsuits accuse Hawaiian Electric power lines of exacerbating this fire. We will get the latest from a reporter on the ground, next. The ground, next in my ozempic® trizone, i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. In studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. 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The category four hurricane is expected to weaken before making landfall in the United States on sunday night, but it could be the first time in 84 years that california is hit with a tropical storm. Theres also the risk of powerful storms surge as well as rip currents, lightning, rains and strong winds. Officials are urging people to stay off the Roads On Sunday and monday when the storm is expected to reach its peak. Were also covering the fallout in maui, hawaii, where at least 111 people have been killed in what is now the deadliest wildfire in modern american history. There are questions as to why the outdoor siren system often used for Tsunami Warnings was not used. The head of the maui Emergency Management agency, herman andaya, who defended his decision not to use the sirens resigned today. Invest guests and atf team deployed on the ground today to conduct the federal investigation, but experts have said a possible cause of the fire was high winds that downed power lines. Now one reason for believing that is because thats exactly what happened in california in 2018, one pacific gas and electric, the utility there, downed lines, started a wildfire that killed 85 people. By the way, there are still many more people from that wildfire who are missing and unaccounted for. Several lawsuits have already been filed against Hawaiian Electric, the states largest utility company, not only accusing of it of bad equipment, but also failing to cut the power to the lines when high Wind Warnings were issued. How electric claims there was no program to preemptively shut off power, because, quote, such a program would have required coordination with emergency workers. Power shut offs would have made it impossible for people to use medical equipment, water pumps, and other essential devices, and quote. Joining us now from Lahaina Hawaii to discuss ongoing Recovery Efforts is the New York Times Australia Bureau chief, damien cave, damien, thank you for being with us today. Lets start with this investigation. Because there are lots of discussions about Climate Change and the increase in the number of wildfires in hawaii. But this happened in california. They learned the lesson to say figure out a way to shut down the power lines when they are in danger of causing fires. Hawaii electric decided not to do that, and the investigation now seems to be focusing on this. This is one piece of the puzzle for sure. Won a lot of people ive talked to actually mentioned, some people said they were a really afraid of being able to get out because they have seen power lines go down, that was their biggest fear. This is something i think the people on the ground and the authorities are really looking at. Its still very early to tell exactly how much of an impact that had. But as you mentioned, this is an issue that has come up before. Just recently, just a few minutes ago, we were talking the mayor, asking him about things we mightve learned. He basically said, listen, theres going to be an investigation. Im not an Emergency Management expert. We look forward to seeing what comes of that. I think its going to be awhile before we have a conclusion. What explains the decision not to use the sirens in the end . There were a lot of things that went wrong, as you say, there were no sirens, there was a lack of communication because cell phone towers werent working. But tell me what the official who resigned said was the reason for the . What he basically said is these are tsunami sirens. If you actually blurred them out, people would run towards the hills where the fire was. Thats the argument, this is for a specific reason, and if it wasnt a tsunami, then they shouldnt be used. Now, a lot of people i hear i think would say if we heard a siren, and look to the mountains and they were on fire, we might not run towards them. I think this is the kind of thing that ended up leading to his demise in office. This is an issue that has come out towards the pacific in many a standard system of protection when the biggest threat is volcanoes and tsunamis, and thats the main issue. Here, obviously, the whole community was just flummoxed by what happened. The system simply did not perform the way it was designed to, because the threat was not something that they had prepared for. So despite early warnings in 2020, and other reports that said westmount you was a real threat for fires, the system simply did not respond in a way that helped people get to safety. Damien, when theyre on these crises, we often hear dont come to where we are, because people often want to go to help. Hawaii is in a different situation. It depends a great deal on tourism, initially there was a message to say please cancel your plans, if you are coming here, we cant handle having you here. There are others who depend on tourism who are saying, wait a second, some people have taken this message to seriously. We are going to go out of business. Yeah, at the beginning i think it was a really simplified message. Hey stay away, dont use the resources. There was a logic to that if you are talking about food, water, maybe to a certain extent housing. After a couple of days, that message started to worry a lot of people who work in tourism. Hey, wait a second, 70 of our income in this county comes from tourism, we need people to come here. A lot of the island is totally fine. Lahaina is a very concentrated area where there is a ton of damage. Just a few miles beyond that, its actually pretty much fine. So a lot of the people here, i think from hotel workers, i was talking to someone today who works in a restaurant who said she is worried for months that this is going to change the reason people maybe not coming to maui. There are long term risks to this idea that maui is a place that everyone should stay away from. That is definitely not the message that a lot of people in maui have. Damian, thanks for having us out. Tonight we appreciate. Damien cave joining us from maui, hawaii. Tonights last word is next. Y. You know how i feel. You dont have to take. [coughing]. Copd sitting down. Its a new dawn,. Its a new day, its time to make a stand. And im feelin good. Start a new day with trelegy. No oncedaily copd. Medicine has the power to treat copd. In as many ways as trelegy. With three medicines in one inhaler,. Trelegy makes breathing easier for a full 24 hours, improves lung function, and helps prevent future flareups. Trelegy wont replace a rescue inhaler. 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A work of writing that has been quoted in almost as regularly misquoted for generations. Tomorrow, we are talking about the constitution of the United States of america. Ill be joined by two allstar constitutional scholars to help me dig into the sacred document. Jeffrey rosen, the president of the National Constitution center. And akilah maher, Professor Of Law and Political Science at yale university, and host of the americas constitution podcast. And weve had such a great reaction to the velshi banned book club, that were making it a podcast ourselves. Each week, ill be joined by the author of a band book. Authors like margaret atwood, nikole hannahjones, and more, who will talk about their books and why it matters that people are able to read them. The first two episodes drop this coming thursday. The 11th hour with Stephanie Ruhle begins right now. Th hour with Stephanie Ruhle begins right now tonight, a historic week of legal woes for the former president. Started off with a fourth indictment, what comes next is donald trump is expecting to turn himself into Georgia Authorities next week. Trumps decision to skip the first republican debate, instead to upstage the big night. Then, the devastation