Well, you have got to weigh, you have got to do all this to the indictment we are familiar with indictments lets do it lets go. Lets get it on air. 6 million pages of discovery . Come on. Lets go. Tv people thank you, my friend, as always. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. The article starts with this quote. The woman cannot believe it. She is in the same elevator with Rudolph Giuliani. Oh, this is a thrill. This is not someone in a maga hat at cpac last year. It is a random new yorker in the year 1985. 1985 was the year that Rudolph Giuliani made a name for himself. It was the year that giuliani pioneer the same prosecutorial tactics that now very much look like they could be his downfall. But let me back up just a little bit. This is carmine, the cigar gilante. He was allegedly the boss of one of new yorks most powerful Crime Families. And in the 70s, gilante shot point blank at an italian allegedly the motivation of his assassins ways that galante decided he should be the head mob boss. But the other mob bosses didnt want to agree. A guy named Anthony Indlicato whack Wax Palm Print but mr. Indlicato whack whack was almost definitely not the person who decided our mind this a car. Whack whack may have been part of the mr. Indlicato ways what is referred to in the mafia as a Cop Show Capo compose kapo instead mr. Giuliani wanted strike all levels of the mob family saying it was not an unrealistic goal to crush them. So giuliani went for the people at the top. The indictment of the National Commission of Organized Crime according to the fbi, this nine Member Ruling Body is cochaired by the men who are the bosses of new yorks five organized Crime Families. The Genovese Family the Gambia No Family headed by Big Paul Castolon oh the lou casey family, ruled by tony ducks colored oh the and a banana family headed by phil risch delhi. The case that made Rudy Giuliani a National Figure was not about any one criminal or any one crime. It was about how all of these crimes drug deals and extortion even murder how all of that was ultimately controlled by the people at the top in the form of a Criminal Enterprise. In this case, a ruling body body with a mob boss from every family, a ruling body called the they are said to run the most powerful Crime Families in new york. In fact, in the nation. And according to the government, they make up the commission. The ruling body of a potent Criminal Enterprise Dealing in drugs and extortion, loan sharking, Labor Racketeering and murder. And mafia hitters were rounded up in an overnight to sweep. And today u. S. Attorney Rudolph Giuliani announced the indictments. This is a great day for Law Enforcement. But this is a bad day probably the worst for the mafia. The commission has existed in new york for more than 50 years at that point, without anyone being able to touch it. What gave giuliani the ability to go after the commission itself, rather than just the commissions footsoldiers, like whack whack, was giulianis pioneering use of a relatively new law, the racketeer influenced and corrupt Organization Act of 1970. You might know it more as rico. Before 1970, prosecutors were limited to seeking indictments for specific acts, such as the commission of a crime to Finding Witnesses who would conspiracy. Rico change that. If you could prove that there was an enterprise or an organized group of some kind, conspiring together to commit multiple crimes, then you could charge for that conspiracy. Its back in 1983, i think when ron came to visit me to talk about putting together a rico case. At that point, we all thought that there was a possibility of putting together a case on the commission of the mafia. But it was on the Drawing Board at the time. And there were an awful lot of people, including people within Law Enforcement that thought that that was totally unrealistic, ridiculous, could not be done. Rudy giuliani did it. The top bosses in new yorks most powerful mafias were given 100year prison sentences. And the case may giuliani famous. And hes that fame to ultimately run for mayor of new york and, well, you know the rest of the story. But now a version of the same law georgias rico statute a version of that law could be Rudy Giulianis downfall. Of all the indictments former President Trump faces, one of the things that makes yesterdays unique ways, how many other defendants there or. Because it is a rico case, trump was indicted along with 18 other codefendants. 19 people 19 all charged with being part of a Criminal Enterprise. Just like how giuliani charge the commission in the 19 80s. And last night, Fulton County d. A. Fani willis made it clear that she intends to try this whole Criminal Enterprise together. Do i intend to try the 19 defendants in this indictment together . Yes. Now, we have seen plenty of highprofile cases against individual defendants play out in court over the past few years. The trial against trumps former Campaign Manager paul manafort, for example. We know how those trials work. But what about a case against 19 people . But what about a rico case . How will this all work . And now that all 19 of this these individuals are facing serious jail time, how soon until someone in this case flips . Make no mistake, as much as trump is surrounded by Coconspirators Case here, in both a federal case in the georgia case, even someone like Rudy Giuliani is ultimately just day capo in this Criminal Enterprise. The big boss the endgame here is Donald J Trump. And the question tonight is, does the rico law that Rudy Giuliani built his career on does that ultimately ensnare Donald J Trump . Joining me now is joyce vance, former District Attorney for the Northern District of alabama, and laura jarrett, former Legal Correspondent for msnbc news. Laura, let me start with you tonight. Down in Fulton County i want to start with the news we have about mark meadows because mark meadows today is filing for a change of venue. He has filed with the Northern District of georgia to move fani williss case against him to Federal Court. Do you think such a move is likely . Whether or not it will be successful will be up to the judge. Let me just say, its not frivolous. Its not crazy. Whether or not he will win, we will have to see. But the argument is, what he is being charged with is a new indictment and has to do with new indictments actions he was taking the Removal Statute says, if you have a coverable argument they are, you get to remove it. Now, if the charge was that mark meadows originally allegedly robbed a bank, you would say, thats crazy. That has nothing to do with him being chief of staff. Right. Raging phone calls, putting pressure on State Officials he is saying that those are not per se criminal. Of course, prosecutors would disagree with him. Soliciting someone to violate their Oath Of Office they would say that is criminal. Again, it would be up to the judge. But i think this is going to be a closer one then, perhaps, someone else like Rudy Giuliani might right. And we are going to talk about giuliani in, ii joyce. To laura jarretts point we will talk about the merits of this is criminal behavior on the part of mark meadows. But moving this case the Federal Court has, i guess, the advantage of a different and presumably more sympathetic jury pool. How meaningful do you think that that will be for someone like mark meadows . So, i think sometimes we get too comfortable talking about juries as though they are a voting pools. We think about juries how does that county vote . In my experience as a prosecutor, peoples political beliefs really dont impact their jury service. Judges do a great job of telling them that they have to decide cases based on the evidence of the law that they are instructed on and that they hear in the courtroom and that they need to leave at the door any biases that they might have, including their political affiliation. We know juries are really good at doing that. So, while meadows and some of the other defendants may perceive some advantage in moving into Federal Court, where the jury pool exceeds Fulton County it goes up into georgias Northern Counties on the east. It touches alabama. So, some very conservative parts of the state. They may perceive an advantage. In reality, there may not really be a big one there. But even if there isnt an advantage, i think joyce would agree with me that, what this shows is the opportunity for a delay. This indictment hasnt even been paid for 24 hours. And already they have a removal motion going, and other defendants might do that. So i think it just shows you the fact that this is going to be to do with 19 people 19 defendants the idea that this is six months in the making is just not realistic. Yeah, joyce, i should mention that Rudy Giuliani, who we spent some time talking about at the start of this program, is also suggesting they should be moved to Federal Court. Is it a foregone conclusion that trump and everyone else involved in this is going to try to move it to Federal Court . To set aside the jury piece of it, how meaningfully could that delay this thing . So, laura is dead on the money. Motions practiced here will be all about delay. And it wont just be motions to remove. We will see a lot of them. They will be individual. They will have to be decided on their individual merits. Because these defendants will have different sort of status as to whether or not they can claim that they were a federal official or acting under the orders of a federal official, which is necessary to trigger removal. They will have different defenses. It will be a mess. And that will only be about one type of motion. Some defendants will file motions to dismiss, saying that the charges against them simply fail to stay the federal crime. It should be diminished on that basis. So, six months will pass in the blink of an eye, i suspect, while these pretrial motions are litigated. Whether this case ends up in Federal Court is a wide open question. But i think laura again is right to say that its not frivolous. But the judge if the judge reads the paper, whatever the defendant sends to the federal judge is supposed to be a short, plain statement this one is not. Its rather lengthy and convoluted. The judge may well look at it and say, i cant read this and make a determination that it is okay to just send this back to state court. So, we need to have an evidentiary hearing. And that, of course, involves more delay, before we even decide which courthouse this case will move forward. In yeah. I do wonder i mean, when you talk about other various codefendants having different status, laura meadowss lawyers are making the case that what he did was arranging phone calls, made visiting official of his affair facilities, down at the state, in cobb county prosecutors take issue with that. But i wonder, when we talk about flipping and sometimes when you have such a large pool of codefendants, the goal of the prosecutor is to leverage all of these people against each other. Do you see this giant number of codefendants as a potential pool for flipping just to be i dont know. Of course can we call it flippage . Im not sure. Walt nauta i dont know that kanye wests former publicists wants to face 5 to 20 years in prison. Im not saying she is going to get five to do you want to gamble . That she is part of the someone you dont have a relationship with. This is a serious charge. I just think the incentives in this case are very different. And there are a wide range of people who are not Household Names who may decide that this is not something they are willing to bear and put their family through. But joyce, what about the Household Names . Because we know as tonight, there is reporting Rudy Giuliani is in dire financial straits. His apartment is up for sale. There are mounting legal bills which are not going away anytime. Soon is that the kind of Leverage Prosecutors need to suggest that someone in trumps inner circle you would think that is who prosecutors would want to go for in particular could be turned to be a cooperating witness . Tell me how it works, joyce. Right. So, the people that you want most as your cooperating witnesses are the people who bring you the most value in terms of what they can testify to. And that may or may not be Rudy Giuliani in this situation. But something thats interesting with these folks with these whose names we recognizes that many of them are lawyers. They appreciate what it might mean to spend two, three, five, 12 years in a georgia prison. They might be highly motivated to make sure that that is not the outcome that awaits them at the end of this trial. So, i think its not unreasonable to assume that we will see some of these people file their legal motions, see if they can get pulled from the herd if they have a defense that is unique to them, or some other ability to escape this sort of a prosecution, and then if they realize they really are right in fani williss sites, they may reach the point where they decide that it is going to go ahead and negotiate a deal to offer up whatever they have. It is a calculated risk, by the way, to litigate before you do that. Because typically, the first people to cooperate get the best deals. But some of these folks may feel like they have potential defenses that they want to run out, and let them play out before they decide whether or not to plead guilty and cooperate. Okay. There is a lot more to talk to both of you guys got about. So, please joyce vance, and laura jarrett, do not go anywhere. When we come back, new evocations about the Fake Electors scheme that are in fani williss indictment and why another shoe might be about to drop. But first, we know who the named Unindicted Coconspirators are, but what about the unnamed and Unindicted Coconspirators. Who could maybe and what could they do to the same case is coming up next stay with us. rsv can be a dangerous virus. [sneeze]. For those 60 and older. Its not just a cold. And if youre 60 or older. You may be at increased risk of hospitalization. [coughing]. From this highly. 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So, dea fani williss Sprawling Indictment names donald trump and 18 other defendants, accusing them of racketeering, and 40 other crimes in their effort to overturn the 2020 Election Results in georgia. But the indictment also includes 30 unnamed Unindicted Coconspirators, whose identities are known only to the grand jury down in georgia. Now, nbc news is still going through indictment to figure out who these individuals might be. But certain details in this document point to specific people. For example, while the indictment does not say who Unindicted Coconspirator individual eight is, it shows this person, individual eight, took part in a Fake Electors scheme and tried to drum up public support for subverting the election with a tweet sent on december 7th, calling for voters to ask lawmakers for a special session. And that tweet matches, word for word, a tweet sent by then Georgia State senator birthed jones, also on december 7th. So, unnamed and unindicted, but for how long . Still with me, joyce vance and laura jarrett. Laura, we are going to know the names of these 30 Unindicted Coconspirators, one would presume, relatively soon. It feels like, just from the general sleuthing we have done, that a fair number of them are Fake Electors who have Immunity Deals squared away. The rest of them i mean, are these potential average points for the government . Is that why they are unnamed and unindicted as . Yet so, it depends. Sometimes you see this Jury Situation like this because they are still working out a little bit of a deal. So, perhaps the person is going to provide some testimony in exchange for. That it will get immunity. Sometimes the government just doesnt have the evidence to make the case for whatever reason. Maybe they dont have the text or the calls. Or sometimes its just messy, right . And so you listed as an Unindicted Coconspirator. We dont know. We do know some of these people have reached deals, based on our reporting. But some of them its just not so clear. And so i think we are going to have to wait and see what else comes out on this. But i think it is certainly clear that they have some people cooperating, and that they want some more, and that they have certainly added this large group as a pressure mechanism. Yeah. So, joyce 18 other named an coconspirators, 30 unnamed, Unindicted Coconspirators. We are talking about a large number of people involved in this case in one way or another. They are directly indicted or floating around indictments potentially cooperating what is your assessment about how this case gets to trial . How practically this seem so unwieldy, so sprawling. For the layman, lay woman, lay person, how does fani willis get this done . You know, when fani willis indicted another rico case, the atlanta educators case, a cheating scam on grading exams, she actually indicted 35 defendants. By the time she got to trial, there were only 12 of them left. And that is this sort of Winnowing Procedure that you are hinting at, alex, where some of these folks will decide to plead guilty, maybe without a deal. Others will want to deal and they may plead and cooperate and strengthen her case. But it is likely that, by the time that williscroft trial, she would no longer have all 19 of these defendants on her hands. Rico cases, and the big conspiracy case, is messy. You have got if youve got ten defendants, youve got ten people making Opening Statements and cross examining witnesses and jumping up and saying, your honor, i object. So, it is a little bit different than the normal trial. But its nothing that a prosecutor, and particularly when like will, as you has a number of these rico cases under her belt, isnt well equipped to handle. Joyce, let me ask a followup on that. In terms of the penalties these folks are actually facing, theres a lot of back and forth around whether rico charges in georgia have a mandatory five year sentence or whether a convicted person can serve probation. Also, whether it is five years in jail or a fine, or both i mean, how real is the legal peril here . Right. So, anyone who is confused by georges statutory scheme is doing a really good job of reading the lot. Because it is, in fact, really confusing. The statute the rico statute itself says that people who are convicted should be sentenced to no less than five years in prison. And that is language that we typically associate with a mandatory minimum. However, there is another provision of georgia law that says that the judge can make a decision in certain kinds of cases that the sentence should be one of probation. That it shouldnt be the full five your mandatory minimum and so, again, when willis indicted the educator case, some of the defendants who were convicted receive sentences of 2 to 3 years. Others received a lower sentences. And then there were folks on the highend who received sentences well beyond five years, which suggests that, for the most culpable bowl culpable defendants, in a successful rico im going to assume that we are talking about donald trump when we see the people who are most involved in this. Laura, what happens as the Fani Willis Case and the jack smith case interject here . Tell me definitively who gets priority. I think theres a fair amount of overlap. And so i think the real question is, what is the former president do over the next course of days, weeks and months, to push her to move this trial up . She has already issued judge chutkan. Judge chutkan has issued something of a warning. And i tried to social media post that mitigate witnesses, arguably, that she is going to throw him in jail, or site him two for contempt. I do think there is a possibility that she decides im going to move this trial of, as she warned him she would do, because shes worried about the integrity of the proceedings. And so if he continues to test, or i think we could see this Case Go Before The Georgia case, even though, obviously, the federal cases complex as well i think it is a possibility, even if there are delay attempts, that he could actually go before. Yeah. It is more built for speed, and the judge has suggested speed as a punishment. So it will be up to him. Joyce vance, laura jarrett, thank you both for your wisdom in time and expertise. I appreciate it. We have much more this evening, including the kanye west connection to georgia. Needs to tidy up. How a rapper his publicist ended up indicted, with donald trump. 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Your bug spray should take out bugs, not keep out people. Unlike other sprays that stick around, zevo goes from kill to clean in just seconds, plus its safe for use around people and pets. Zevo. Peoplefriendly. Bugdeadly. Warehouse Ambience introducing togos new french dip sandwiches featuring fresh Artisan Bread piled high with tender roast beef, smothered with Melty Provolone cheese and served with hot au jus for dipping. Try the roast beef or pastrami french dips today so, 84 people in seven only at togos states President Biden won in 2020 served as Fake Electors for donald trump. Now, state and federal prosecutors have investigated this Fake Electors scheme for months now. And last night, Fulton County Da Fani Willis indicted three of georgias State Electors kathy latham and sean still. Combined, these three are facing 26 criminal charges, including forgery, making false statements, and violating georgias rico statute. The georgia Fake Electors are now part of a club that includes michigans 16 Fake Electors, who are clergy hardge by that states which begs the question, are we reaching a sort of Critical Mass that is needed for more states to try these people in earnest . In arizona, state Attorney General chris mays, a democrat who took office this january she is currently investigating that states group of Fake Electors, and other thwarted attempts to flip the vote to trump. You might remember former Arizona House speaker rusty bowers who, like raffensperger down in georgia, defied trumps pressure to reverse bidens victory. We asked Attorney General chris mazes office for an update on that investigation and we received no comment. Joining me now to discuss all this is our notsosecret weapon, lisa reuben. Rubin. And what happened in georgia in the 2020 election are eerily similar. How much do you think this georgia indictment sort of puts the pressure or pushes the ball forward over at i wouldnt call it pressure because each state is its own one of the key differences here is that republicans in arizona still pledge fealty to donald trump and those that didnt, like rusty bowers, or even mark brnovich, who was the states Attorney General, wherein for Higher Office and didnt succeed, because he took on donald trump. Those people no longer have power in arizona. On the other hand, in georgia, they did. And so they were unafraid to talk to fani willis, whether they did so voluntarily or sort of wink wink, not not, said it be a subpoena and i will come in those people had to have been tremendously helpful to her. And in arizona, it remains to be seen whether chris mays will get that kind of cooperation from republicans who are privy to those conversations. Yeah, that such an important distinction, actually, the way that georgia republicans handlers versus the arizona republicans. It tells you something about the Republican Party in states by states across the country. What about nevada . Because nevada is mentioned in the Jacks Mitt Federal indictment. And yet the nevada a. G. Has not brought any charges here, and is also a democrat. Right. The nevada a. G. Has actually said publicly he doesnt intend, too because he doesnt believe the statutes in his state would allow him to bring a case. He actually stood up and supported nevada state legislators, wanted to make being a fake elector itself a crime in nevada. But where it came to sort of more nebulous statutes that could apply to lots of different situations, like forgery or solicitation, he, unlike fani willis, i thought that wasnt enough. So, he announced a he would not bring charges. I will be curious to see whether this indictment causes aaron forward, who is the democrat elected a. G. In nevada, to revisit that conversation. You would think and lets talk about josh kaul over in wisconsin the democratic a. G. With the sort of opening i dont know what you would call, a pandoras box. Once one Fulton County da says, look at what happened in our state. It was a miscarriage of justice, and you are sitting there as a democrat in your own state, where the same thing, basically, unfolded, it seems to me that it is incumbent upon these democrats to do something or have a very good reason as to why they are not. And i wonder if you think that moves the a. G. In wisconsin too. Im not sure, josh kaul has sort of been involved on this, right . Others have asked him, do you plan to investigate . And hes basically said, ive been in contact with the federal government, and thats all im going to say. I do think in nevada jack smith might have something more up his sleeve. And thats because what happened in nevada was particularly egregious. The secretary of state, under nevada law, is required to preside over any meeting of the electors. That secretary of state, a republican at the time, barbara kodak ski, had already signed the certificate of biden correct. And the fact that two of nevada six electors had received partial immunity from jack smith makes me think that jack smith is not done with the nevada story and an indictment against donald trump itself, will it show up in future indictments against any of the Unindicted Coconspirators . Or people who have remained to be seen still in the shadows with respect to the Trump Federal Indictment Agency . Do you think that so, you suggest that the jack smith case continues. Hes building it out. We are going to see more of this. I think there are a lot of people that say, what is the timetable for that. How much longer can and should this go . On if the states there has been this kind of is it hot potato . Just this passing of the potential indictments from the states to the feds and kind of back again at one point we are talking about the 2020 election in the 2024 election coming up. And i think a lot of people think, look, there needs to be accountability before 2024, where donald trump, if he is running and is not in jail, is almost certain to say, i won the election. And there cannot be this same state level plot to overthrow democracy if, in fact, he loses. Lets take those things apart. Because the indictment against trump i personally dont think that indictment will become an indictment against other people. When jack smith and his Team Proposed a trial date of january 2nd, you and i can laugh about that and say thats never going to happen. But to me, that indicates they dont intend to supersede that indictment with more charges and more people. I think, to the extent that jack smiths Team Continues to investigate and all signs show that they are that is going to be a separate charging instrument. They will proceed on one track against donald trump. And on other tracks against other people who may become defendants in that investigation in d. C. Federal court well, everyone has their work cut out for them all over the place in all these states. You and me both. Yeah, and us too. Lisa rubin, thank you, as always, for your time, my friend. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Still ahead tonight Donald Trumps plans for complete exoneration. Those are all his caps, not mine. In the Fulton County rico case. But first, disgraced rapper ye his former publicist was indicted in Fulton County last, night alongside former president donald trump. Why was a former representative of the farright rapper trying to subvert the will of voters in atlanta . That is next. At is next think hairsprays stuck in one dimension . Think again. 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Is trumps allies excuse these women of Election Fraud and subjected them to a Public Campaign of unyielding harassment. The racist undercurrent was not subtle. This is sheamus testifying to the january Six Committee in june of last year. Where a lot of these threats and vile comments racist in nature . A lot of them were racist. A lot of them were just hateful, wishing death upon me. Telling me that ill be in jail with my mother and saying things like, be glad its 2020 and not 1920. Trumps allies also allegedly tried to coerce freeman and moss into confessing to crimes in ever committed. Just weeks after the 2020 election, a mysterious white man showed up and began banging on miss freemans door. Mistreatment didnt recognize the man and so she turned him away and call the police. She they then spoke to the man outside her home. Whats going on . My name is steve late. Yes. Im a pastor. Im also working with some folks who are trying to help ruby out. We want to let her know that we want to provide pro bono service. That strange man who was Offering Pro Bono Services was a man named Stephen Cliff guard lee. He is one of the 19 people indicted last night by the a fani willis and this is what the indictment says about mr. Lee. Honor between the 15th Of December 2020 and the fourth day of january 2021, Stephen Cliff guard lee hired solicited Harrison Floyd, an individual from black voices for trump, to a system insisting in speaking ruby freeman to. Stated to Harrison Floyd that airs on floyd that freedom the freemen was afraid to talk to steven lay because he was a white man. Apparently according to, stephen lead called Harrison Floyd. Mr. Floyd then tried to call ruby freeman. He tried several times, but he was unsuccessful. So he in turn recruited someone else, someone named Trevian Kutti, a black publicist for the trump supporting nothing apologist and artist kanye what west, who now goes by the name ye it. December 2021 a spokesperson for ye said trevian was not associated with this when it went down. But it said don trumps repeated you used ye as a supporter blackface to bolster his own extreme an incendiary politics. And ye, in the same, time has drifted further and further to the right, openly embracing nazism, anti black rhetoric, and donald trump. So, on around january 4th, Former Ye Publicist Trevian Kutti showed up at ruby freeman s drawer, dorsal was set by a high profile individual emerging this Freedom Freeman to confess to trumps baseless allegations of voter fraud or people would come to miss freemans home in 48 hours and put her in jail. But ruby freeman was not having it. She called the police once again, and an officer took freeman and kutti to a police precinct, where Body Camera Footage showed kutti threatening miss freeman. I cannot say what specifically will take place, kutti said to miss freeman. But it will affect your freedom and the freedom of one or more of your family members. Now Trevian Kutti and Harrison Floyd or my 19 individuals charged in fani williss case. This is the first time we are seeing charges for the people who allegedly directly orchestrated Trumps Campaign of harassment against those two black poll workers. It is the first attempt at justice for the two black women whose lives were upended by trumps racist conspiracies, his supporters races threats, and his lackeys racist Pressure Campaigns. Today, trump signal just how he plans to respond to this latest indictment. Were going to have more on that, right after the break. T after the break. Kin, try downy free gentle downy will soften your clothes without dyes or perfumes. The towel washed with downy is softer, and gentler on your skin. Try downy free gentle. My cpa told me i wouldnt qualify for the erc tax refund, so i called innovation refunds. 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Not all dangers come with warning labels. Talk to your pharmacist or doctor. About getting vaccinated against rsv today. Mr. Clean magic eraser powers through tough messes. So it makes it look like i spent hours cleaning, and you know i didnt. It makes my running shoe look like new its amazing. Its so good. It makes it look like i have magical powers. Magic eraser and sheets make cleaning look easy. Former president on trump was up early this morning to share his reaction to Fulton Countys 98 page 41 count indictment. Large complex detailed but irrefutable report on the president ial Election Fraud, which took place in georgia, is almost complete, and will be presented by me at a major News Conference at 11 am on monday of next week in bedminster, new jersey. Based on the results of this conclusive report, all charges should be dropped against me and others. There will be a complete exoneration. If you, like me, i wondering just how conclusive this report will be, it is worth remembering that mr. Trump has done this before. Last summer, after the january Six Committee released its findings, trump issued to trumps report that he claimed offered proof of election cheating. As the Washington Post philip bump put it at the time, the report was something of a greatest hits collection fors longstanding crusade against reality. Peppered with expected pejoratives against the january Six Committee, it is really not for what it says about the election, but for what it says about trump. He demonstrates no ability to discern fact from fiction about the Election Results, but also shows no interest in trying to draw such a distinction. Joining me now to discuss this, is david cloth, former white house Senior Adviser under president obama. What strikes me about the strategy here, as we get these indictments we are given a very full illustration of the outrageous but coordinated strategy employed while he was still in the oval office office. You contrast that as allegedly as illegal that was, there are lot of people involved in it, and now you have the president , former president tweeting out these announcements for Press Conferences and his golf club and so fall clownish reports that he thinks are gonna completely exonerate him, and its such a study and how much trump has lost the support and the wisdom, if you will, or at least the strategy of the inner circle that he once had. They are all indicted now. What has that left him with . I found this announcement today shockingly embarrassing. Yeah, well, alex, its an insult to rain trusts to called trumps cabinet of conspirators a brain trust. But even that group has been splintered. Trump has largely been all tactics, no strategy. This again is not serving the word tactic well. But whats fascinating about this is you treated all is a game. He has now been indicted four times. Just in recent months. A racketeering charge, no matter the subject, it is never a laughing matter. My sense is you can tell by his reaction that he understands that perhaps this is the most serious of all today. I would say about the politics is no sign that this is going to hurt him in the republican primary. If anything it will help him. I think the one thing that could change that is if we get more of a sense that this is hurting him in the general election votes. But even if that doesnt happen between january or february with the caucuses, its hard to believe theres a single voter out theyre more likely to vote for trump, a swing voter, and where this will probably hurt him the most is the state of georgia, a battleground state. Hard to conceive of any scenario where don trump can win the white house if he doesnt give georges 16 electoral votes. So that to me is maybe the most, from a political standpoint, the most interesting thing to watch. Where this happened. Where the alleged crimes occurred, where this is going to love coverage. Even if that hurts him half percent, a percent more than it hurts him in wisconsin or arizona, it could be a decisive set of voters in the next election. Thats such a good point. Especially when you think about the fact that the michigan a. G. As bringing charges against the Fake Electors. There could be action in arizona. Who knows what happens in nevada and wisconsin. Those states really matter if youre trying to win the presidency. Do you think it is incumbent on democratic ags to pursue those fake elector plot in states where they have not happened yet . Not based on where the states are but just based on what happened. What he said is, this probably 30 of the country, maybe even 45 , who thinks a concerted effort to basically circumvent the will of the voters and leave someone in office, is happens in many countries, is okay. But those of us who believe that there is more sacred in this country than a peaceful transfer of power, after follow this wherever it goes. And yeah, i think its true that this was not the most skillful band of traitors in global history. But the more we learn, the more we see how coordinated it was. The thing that should scare us all, is that if strawberry somehow to win, it will be much more skillful next time. Clearly he doesnt think he did anything wrong. A lot of the people around him dont think he did anything wrong. So thats why its important to be held to account and one of the important things about georgias, so many other people who were part of this conspiracy also have been indicted. To the georgia case, what do you make of the Washington Post analysis this morning, effectively saying the case the d. A. Willis has brought is overly broad and that that could ultimately help trump. This is a quote from that piece. If jurors eventually balk at the breadth of the charges in georgia, that could turn Public Opinion in trumps favor. This is according to a republican consultant in atlanta. I think the overreach hurts the credibility of the rest of the cases. Do you think theres any merit in that . I believe Airline Forsman officials should pursue wrongdoing, here regardless of politics or pr. At the end of the day, we have trump on tape. We have so many of his allies, including some white house chief of staff, actively engaging in threatening Election Officials to overturn the Election Results. Again, if we think its all a game and that is now okay in america, thats one thing. But if we believe, at the end of the day, this was a traitorous set of strategies and Track Tactics to hold on to power and basically destroy our democracy, then you have to follow those facts in those leads and that evidence where it leads. So i disagree with that very profoundly. It is really a stressed for democracy is what this moment feels. Like david david plouffe, always great to hear from you. Thank you for your time tonight. That is our so for this evening. Now it is time for the last word with lawrence odonnell. Good evening, lawrence. Good evening, alex. We may, i cant be sure of this, it might just be that we have now covered our final indictment of donald trump. Could be. Might be the very last one for his lot and its certainly enough to continue the years, the years of defendant trump that are coming. Years. Years, my friend. You said it. I think thats almost a certainty. I have a good show. Thanks. The first thing gone trump has to do is go to jail. Furlong trump, the case of a state of georgia versus Donald J Trump will begin in