Transcripts For MSNBCW Ayman 20240704

In less than 12 hours the District Attorney fani willis will begin presenting her election interference case to a granary in georgia. Indictments for donald trump and his allies could come down as soon as tuesday evening. Breaking tonight, we are learning about one possible focus of witnesses presentation. A Voting System breach in Coffee County. That is a rural heavily republican area of the state. Now, Text Messages and emails reference in public Court Documents show that lawyers working for trump, coordinated a visit to Coffee Countys Election Office along with Data Specialists hired by ex trump lawyer and Conspiracy Theorist Sydney Powell. The big breaking siren tonight, cnn is now reporting that those Text Messages are indeed part of fani williss investigations and to understand the importance of this revelation i want to give you a little bit more context about it lets go back in time for a moment here. On January 7th 2021 the date after the capital Insurrection Data Forensics Experts from atlanta, from atlantabased firm known as Sullivan Strickler and thats a firm that Sydney Powell hired, allegedly copied information from the Voting Machines in Coffee County in an effort to prove rampant voter fraud existed in the state. Now, the heavily republican part of the state that went overwhelmingly for donald trump might not seem like the most obvious place to find voter fraud but Coffee County used machines made by dominion Voting Systems which was the target of a attacks and conspiracies pushed by fox and conservatives. Video footage obtained last year by nbc news shows kathy latham the former chair of the Coffee County gop escorting the group into the Elections Office. Its worth noting here that they served as one of georgias face electors. We could talk about that in a bit the guardian reports that prosecutors believed they have sufficient evidence for a racketeering case. Which would mean charges for not just trump but actually multiple people. Here is the part that might matter most with this Coffee County situation. Quote, the statute itself prohibits the intentional use of a computer or Computer Network without authorization in order to remove data. , either temporarily, or a permanently. It also prohibits interrupting or interfering with the use of a computer as well as altering or damaging a computer. The fact that trumps allies had their eyes on Voting Machines in georgia thats not necessarily new, under of the former white House Counsel derek lions told a jerry Six Committee that Rudy Giuliani spoke about how the Trump Campaign was, quote going to be able to secure access to Voting Machines in georgia through means other than seizure. Todays developments signals this part of the alleged plan to reverse the 2020 Election Results will likely be a big part of the willis case. Meanwhile witnesses are waiting in the weeks just a few, Former Georgia Lieutenant Governor jeff Duncan George cheat there are both set to testify before the grand jury on tuesday. Former state senator jen jordan, state representative bee nguyen, they have also been subpoenaed. Both attended hearings where Rudy Giuliani had urged officials not to certify the georgia Election Results based on debunked conspiracies. Finally, two and a half years after willis first launched her investigation, we are going to learn just how far trump and his allies were apparently willing to go to try to subvert the will of voters in georgia, and the American People at large joining me now to break all of this down, Danny Cevallos, msnbc legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, Jennifer Reuben msnbc political analyst and an Opinion Writer at the washington post, and routinely audio of, a political strategist and opinion colleague us at the daily beast. I will start with you, if fani willis were to use these text that we are learning more about in that other networks have been reported are central to the investigation just walk us through what that means to a possible racketeering charge, how significant will it be that she has these texts showing multiple people involved, people that were linked to the trump orbit. , first georges racketeering statute or rico, as its often called is much broader than its federal counterpart, all you need is an enterprise and the enterprise could be the Trump Campaign it could even arguably the presidency. You need some kind of organization and then a pattern of Racketeering Activity The Georgia Statute lays out about 20 different violations of statutes that can count, in other words racketeering is defined by at least two other crimes that are committed in the course of racketeering. You dont necessarily need to prove the crimes but you need to articulate them so in this case most of the crimes would fall under georgia or voter fraud. These newly acquired Text Messages, to me tend to show, i would least say that the state prosecutors might use those text to show that pattern of Racketeering Activity and the violation of one or more, excuse me in these to be two or more of the Predicate Statutes but thats the kind of evidence that shows communication between people and racketeering does require those other people. There are so many different options even within the rubric of Election Fraud for prosecutors under the georgia statute that the emergence of these Text Messages create a lot of possibilities for prosecutors. Jennifer, another part of the reporting we saw today is that Election Officials allegedly sent a letter of invitation to trumps then lawyers, it was also shared with members of the tech firm who entered the Elections Office in Coffee County, if these local officials are swept up and potential recultured is, what kind of impact will that have. Well, its exactly correct that what we are looking for is a criminal enterprise, now, Fani Willis Is the District Attorney for fulton county. So, there are two predicate acts youre speaking of. You have to have them within fulton county. You could then go outside of fulton county, including to whatever occurred in Coffee County and use that as part of the rico case. That may include trump directly, that may include other associates of trump. That may include local officials. Now, some of these people may already be indictable on other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. Other charges. On the direct fraud, case on the appearance with an official case. As he said, these indictments and. He feels like his empowered by fighting against the deep state, the swamp, any nickname he wants to call people who is simply looking purchase at. I think talking about general election voters, i think the average american person, once they see that someone wants to be in the white house, multiple criminal charges, continues to deny crime, its pretty obvious that theyve committed, i think most voters, My Hope Come November if donald trump is the nominee are going to reject that at the polls. I think hes built up such a cult following, its going to be very hard for people that already support him to run away now. If they drink the koolaid. Danny, i will go back to a point that jennifer made, i thought it was very interesting which is the difference between jack smith and fani willis. Jack smith, as far as we can tell, i mean we know it was mentioned the diamond, obviously it superseding indictments that may change this. There is no mention of Coffee County the coconspirators are not mentioned by name we dont know how into the weeds hes going into georgia except for some of the items identified in that. Thats including the phone call to Brad Raffensperger walk it through why youth he think he did not pursue the investigation into whats happening and Coffee County why might that be different than Fani Willis Is, is it jurisdictional, is there a bigger strategy in terms of the charges hes crafting to go after trump and what fundi bots is. Doing the short answer is he probably didnt need to he didnt need to get into Coffee County to achieve his objectives. By that i mean special counsel jack smith everything about the d. C. Indictment signals that jack smith is looking to streamline this federal prosecution. To get to trial as soon as possible. There are unindicted coconspirators. They are not named personally because additional name defendants would slow the case down. There would be motions to dismiss. Motions to sever motions to transfer a venue. Those would be times five if you added five more codefendants on to that case. So, while jack smith may have known about Coffee County he might not have seen that as important to what he needed to achieve. Of course, the state and federal statutes are difference, even the rico statute. Georgias rico statute is probably broader than the federal rico statute thats probably why jack smith didnt charge it in a sense, jack smith smithson is a little different in that he cannot be seen to charge anything that is remotely along. Shot everything about that indictment is conservative in the sense that he charges that which he thinks he can make up and thats why the incitement to riot or any of the crimes that might be a long shot or that might have a First Amendment defense. Thats probably the. Difference we may never know what was in the minds of either jack smith or Fani Willis Is in terms of what they wanted to pursue. Give me your final thoughts, we may very well see a former president face his fourth indictment. To paraphrase something my colleague Reach Out Maddow has that history will not judge the Department Of Justice or jack smith or fani willis for indicting donald trump but they will history will judge america for electing President Trump and may again put him in the oval office. Well, i really do hope and we will have to see what happens coming this Nomination Process and in the general election, i think American People see the truth. Here i think that the way the federal government with jack smith and the prosecuting george or are laying out facts, its going to be really, really hard for the common average person looking at the facts and seeing whats happening to turn away flint and simply say that whats happening here wasnt a threat to democracy. Wasnt a threat to our country. So, i really appreciate it. Any american who cares about our democracy, cares about the country that has been built on the tenants have actually having a Good Government that works for people they are going to come out another way to vote in november against this sort of antidemocratic tendencies. The facts are obvious. Donald trump for a long time has played with justice. Fought against truth. The truth is coming out. Im confident that people are going to vote against. You are absolutely right, with the framing of democracy. We will be on the ballot. Its this time. Around rick rotimi adeoye, thank you for joining, us danny, jennifer, stick around, we will talk to any other side of the break. The growing legal chaos and rightwing Political Violence in this country. And last for weeks. It can make your workday feel impossible. The virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. 50 years or older . Ask your doctor about shingles. With powerful, easytouse tools, power e trade makes complex trading easier. React to fastmoving markets with dynamic charting and a Futures Ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you wont miss an opportunity. E trade from morgan stanley. Im saving with liberty mutual, mom. They customize your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. You could save 700 dollars just by switching. Ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. On the top of the pile oh. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Shingles. The rash can feel like pulsing, electric shocks and last for weeks. A pain so intense, you could miss out on family time. The virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. 50 years or older . Ask your doctor about shingles. Every businesss or older . Thats why Comcast Business De is launching theal. Mobile made free event. With our business internet, new and existing customers can get one year of unlimited mobile for free. Its our best internet. Powered by The Next Generation 10g network and with 99. 9 reliability. Plus one line of free mobile for an entire year. Its the mobile made free eventhappening now. Get started for just 49. 99 a month. Plus, ask how to get one free line of unlimited mobile. This week the faa shot and comcast business, powering possibilities. Killed a utah man who allegedly made online threats to kill President Biden in manhattan District Attorney alvin bragg wellserved a warrant at his private home. The man mentioned many other politicians in his threats, including new York Attorney general letitia, James Merrick garland, california governor gavin newsom, according to the charging documents. He had, quote, Intent To Kill at a minimum the a bragg and president joe biden. The language this man used and the people he targeted with these threats is not anomalous his words echo the views of not insignificant number of Trump Supporters and was always donald trump and other highprofile republicans are there to yet again fanned the flames just listen to what matt gaetz said yesterday in iowa. We are having a great time. We love standing with you. We know that only through root for us to make any change in a corrupt town like washington, d. C. Only through force. Well, the report last month from the University Of Chicago found that between april and june of 2023 americans agreeing that the use of force is justified to Restore Donald Trump to the presidency increased from 4 , from 4. 5 to 7 . Now, that might not sound like a big jump, if its an increase of 6 Million People from 12 to 18 million, you get a sense of how significant it is. Just days after u. S. District judge Tanya Chutkan was named to the trump election interference case, nbc news reports she has, now u. S. Marshals following her to protect her. This as trump criticizes judge chutkan, excuse me, judge Chutkan On Social Media on a daily basis. According to reuters, Political Violence in the United States is at its highest since the 1970s. It contrasts to the 70s, the violence is overwhelmingly aimed at people rather than property. Its coming from the right. Joining me now is clint watts, Msnbc National Security analyst and acme, Again Cevallos and Jennifer Reuben. Let me start by talking about the news of this week, this Fatal Shooting of a man in utah who had threatened to kill Government Officials. The story did not get enough attention in this country are carli get a friend of ours msnbc frankly it wrote no one should be surprised by this developments. In fact, i would be surprised if we dont see more violence threats against Government Officials given the incendiary rhetoric from trump and his supporters. Your take on what played out this week. Yeah, and fortunate i meant but not surprising in any way. As soon as you saw the indictments come out in recent weeks you start to hear the same kinds of violent rhetoric that weve heard over the years. I think the key point, this time, not about mobilizing to a certain point, we havent seen that when the former President Trump gets indicted, we dont see large crowds mobilizing in the way we did for january six but we have seen for at least the last eight years is still casting terrorism. , essentially the target is known the attacker is not we see this language and i have to say one of the things that i find most interesting is a ten years ago we are talking about ices worsened makes an online threat, and then we see them actually do an online attack, we might not see the fbi or dhs step in and be able to connect the dots, in this case they absolutely did this is been going on for several months. They did whats known as a Contact Meeting with this individual, he not only double down, he escalated after the Contact Meeting with the fbi so i think this is one of those very specific examples where you have motive, you have a place where the individuals talking about social, media but having weapons and what he would do i only see more of these on the horizon as long as the temperature continues to say very hot the way we saw with that talk in iowa right before i came on here. Clint, these numbers as i try to put them in context from a recent poll, they tell us a lot. As i mentioned between april 6th and june 26 of this, year during which time the indictment against trump and the classified documents case was unveiled, there was an estimated increase of what amounts to 6 million americans who agreed that force is justified to Restore Donald Trump to power. That is a dangerous threshold to cross. Do you attribute this intensifying commitment to violence, to trump, to other republicans like matt gaetz saying only force is the way to change d. C. . It is a couple things. Weve seen this before. Its 50 increase. It is highly correlated to the events in recent months. In terms of these indictments and court charges. Id like to remind everybody that in an Election Year this is when we tend traditionally in the United States to see a spike in domestic terrorism or domestic extremism and theres a lot of tension and a lot of boiling thats going to come up as we head into 2024. We are right at 15 months. The debates are starting soon i would think if you just look at the rhetoric and then you look at the, trends we are going into a really dangerous. Period what im hopeful for is in the post january six era you saw lots of more mobilized and organize groups really get broken up. They disintegrated. They were prosecuted for being at january six. Or you have these major cases with the proud boys where they are prosecuted hopefully that will stymie some of the more organized violence i think the challenges that we will see over the next 15 months is the one off stochastic terrorism someone whos sitting around waiting for some sort of signal or where to point their aims showing up to do some sort of violence. You quoted frank there in the beginning i would have to agree with the assessment. We have a long way to go, at least in the current context i dont see any reason that the Boiling Point would simmer down at this point. I have to ask you about judge Tanya Chutkan. Here she has increased security u. S. Marshals around her which we have to say seems connected to what happened in recent days and weeks with trump going after her almost daily on social media. We know donald trump has taken out i believe tv ads criticizing fani willis and thats going to put her in some kind of danger. At least from the rhetoric that weve seen directed at her. What does this mean when you have all of the judges and prosecutors and lead investigators on a case constantly surrounded by security. Is this going to be the new norm for our country, what does that say . I dont think it would be the no. Mark normal. I think itll be a low point. And then there will never again be another defendant in court quite like the former president donald trump. His power to influence others and supporters. There is nobody, no highprofile defendant thats ever had that kind of influence hopefully this is just a spike a temporary period, i am somewhat believing the idea that at least in a federal courthouse for example once the judge gets inside the federal courthouse, a pretty robust security so anyone in a federal courthouse has to go through quite a few layers. The idea that the judges need to worry about going home or on the way to and from their car or just going about their daily life, its a scary thought, the same for prosecutors. Two ive often gotten aston. I think prosecutors do to, are you worried about the people you prosecute. I think most prosecutors would tell you yeah they think about it but not really. I guess theres always this informal understanding that criminals just sort of leave them out of the lab. Recognizing if you went after one prosecutor, there will always be another one. There will always be another. Dutchman au, i say this cautioning that there have been assaults and attacks on assassinations even of federal judges in the not too distant past. In the last couple decades. So these are the kinds of things that are absolutely something that are top of mind for prosecutors for judges. Hopefully im optimistic that this is a temporary thing and once these prosecutions of trump or over it will return to the normal we knew before. I want to share your optimism. I want to get jennifers thoughts on this but i have to put it against the context of where we are as a country, jennifer. And that is as, i mentioned, in this reuters report. Political violence is at its worst since the airlie 1970s. Thats about 50 years. Ago that report found that many of the fatal bouts of violence since january 6th have come from one side and that is the right. Yes, i have written about this repeatedly by the fbi has a statutory duty to begin to collect information on these groups. It has failed to do so this is a shortcoming of Christopher Wray Congress Needs to exercise extreme oversight in continuing to gather intelligence continuing to talk about issues that are uncomfortable like radicalization of people in the military like radicalization of people in law enforcement. I think we should keep something in mind. First of all we saw it then in conjunction with the maralago case that there was an individual who went to the fbi offices and cincinnati and he was ready to kill fbi officers. Part of the anger and part of the rhetoric that you see drummed up on the right is directed towards law enforcement. Its not only the courts its not only trumps accusers. Its police officers, if the fbi and that kind of rhetoric is extremely dangerous. You will have people who do want to act on that. The other thing that i have been saying is the role of rightwing media. These people would not get the constant barrage of messages if not for the echo chamber of rightwing media that repeats and that elevates and that makes this seem normal it makes this seem like the average individual is doing something that a Major Political party a Major Political movement wants them to do. And we have a First Amendment right. I think we also have to have a level of responsibility and a public that is no longer willing to put up with a media that Frankly Aids And Abets violence. And we have to come up with some better ways of addressing that. And one of the ways we can do it is really looking at some of the rules on social media. Social media obviously plays a very big role in this so this is a large problem it has to do with many different facets of american society. But ignoring it will not make it go away. We certainly cannot. We cant become numb to it and most importantly, we cannot normalize the kind of language that we hear from people like matt gaetz and others and just kind of dismiss it as political rhetoric. We have to do better as a society. Clint watts, Danny Cevallos thank you so much. Jennifer, please stick around we will talk to you again later on in the hour. Ahead, another threat from the right. Fresh amplification of election denial. I will speak with arizona Secretary Of State aryan fontes after the break to discuss his fight to end the big lie once and for all. Stay with us. fan 1 there ya go thats what im talkin about josh allen is this your plan to watch the game today . hero fan uh, yea. I have to watch my neighbors Nfl Sunday Ticket. josh allen its not your best plan. But you know what is . Myplan from verizon. Switch now and theyll give you Nfl Sunday Ticket from youtubetv, on them. hero fan this plan is amazing josh allen another amazing plan, backing away from here very slowly. fan 1 that was josh allen. fan 2 mmhm. vo for a limited time get Nfl Sunday Ticket from youtubetv on us. A 449 value. Plus, get a free Samsung Galaxy z flip5. Only on verizon. Looking for a Bladder Leak Pad that keeps you dry . All of the things that youre looking for in a pad, that is always discreet. Look at how it absorbs all of the liquid. And locking it right on in you feel no wetness. 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Former arizona gop gubernatorial nominee, kari lake is reportedly staffing up for a Senate Campaign in anticipation of an october launch making it ground zero to replay and relitigate gop losses in the last two elections. It is august of 2023. And lake, believe it or not, has still not conceded her november 22 loss. Officials who actually won their 2022 elections are fighting these election deniers. Arizonian attorney general chris mays is currently investigating the states slate of 2020 Fake Electors, part of the broader gop election subversion effort. It was outlined in jack smiths indictment. Another official fighting the good faith, arizona Secretary Of State adrienne fontes. Who joins me again on this program. Mister secretary, its always a pleasure, thank you so much for coming on the show. Let me get your reaction to the Election Interference Indictment against donald trump. Much of what came out in the latest charges must hit Close To Home for. You and now your states attorney general chris mays is investigating the arizona Fake Electors scheme. Give me your thoughts on all of it. Well, look, first and foremost thank you for having me. It is about time. I think this indictment came a little slower than a lot of us wanted it to. Had seen in the general Six Committees investigation on capitol hill, a lot of this information came out sometime ago. We are glad its here, however. Some of the other things that Attorney General Mays is working on, the Governors Task force here in arizona, and the work that we are doing not just with our basic procedures, but with suring up some of the folks that weve lost. Weve lost a lot of election experts here in the state with explorers. So, we are pushing forward on all fronts to make sure that we can keep our democracy safe and free and secure in arizona. As far as the indictments specifically is concerned, i am glad that the wheels of justice are turning. I absolutely believe that the criminal defendant should have all of his rights upheld through the process. These latest indictment lays out the charges and they are just against. Trump there is still so much more to hold him and perhaps others to account for and other states. Talk to me a little bit about how officials like yourself are fighting back to shore up our elections and trying to root out Election Denialism. Is this going to be sadly a new normal for our politics, when a candidate like carolinas is the election instead of being magnanimous and conceding and bringing americans together to scream and shout and cry foul and say the election was stolen and rigged. First of all, the concession is never a mandatory part of our political process, it is what jim deal has honored and done. So, folks that dont want to concede, tough, we are going to keep governing without. She is not the governor. That really isnt that big of a deal. As far as the rest of us is concerned, we are continuing to do the work that we were elected to do. Or appointed to do. By various supervisors, our election, directors are 15 counties are, our County Recorders our elected officials, i am elected official. We are going to keep doing the work that arizonas have asked us to do. We dont have anything but the truth. And our integrity and our honor. Guess what, that is enough. All they have is lies and unfounded conspiracy theories. Those have fallen apart over and over and over again. I think the division that youve seen on the political right is unfortunate. We used to have a very healthy Republican Party in arizona. It was reasonable, it was levelheaded, it worked out the business, it worked on governance. Now we have something a little bit different. So, i think arizonas voters are going to respond in kind the way they did in 22. Escort the Conspiracy Theorists and the insurrectionist for the most part out the door. So, you bring up an interesting point. I certainly agree with you, concessions or not mandatory in our system. They are certainly a hallmark of our traditions. The world used to appreciate that and admire us for it. How do we tamp down on these amplification lies. We are seeing them for people like kari lake and trump. We thought it might be over with trump. Its not. So, a fair enough on how we strengthen the institutions. Then how do we tamp down on the application of the lies . What did he do to get rid of this spreading further north society . Well, im going to have to put it back just a little bit on you. As my host here, the fact that youre talking about the notion that she has not conceded is amplification of the unamerican practice that she is engaged in. If we stop talking about it because its irrelevant because his unimportant and because it feeds her ego, we will have to deal with that part of it. Moving forward, i think what we have to do is continue to talk about the people who actually run our elections, these are regular american citizens. They are just normal folks who want to help. They are the ones who have been cast usunder. They are reputation and integrity and honor is whats being questioned by these elections analysis. Weve got to tell their story, not just folks like the elected officials and some of these other folks in the offices. The people that do the polling places. The people that are operating the vote centers be adjudication. They are just regular citizens that took an oath to do the vast and theyve done it and they will continue to do it and thats how were going to break through this thing again respectfully we talked an awful lot about the shiny object the real work is continuously being done. Youre absolutely right let me say very clearly the media is not above scrutiny in this country. You are always welcome to come and hold us account just like any other institution in this country. I greatly appreciate your honesty and your candor. Thats why we love having you on you are always welcome. Arizona Secretary Of State adrienne fontes, thank you, sir, i always appreciate it. Ahead, the biggest red flag for republicans ahead of the 2024 elections, believe or not, its not donald trump. Hi need new glasses . Buy one pair, get one free at visionworks how can you see me squinting . I cant im just telling everyone . Hey buy one pair, get one free for back to school. Visionworks. See the difference. The virus that causes shingles is sleeping. In 99 of people over 50. And it could strike at any time. Think youre not at risk . Wake up. Because shingles could wake up in you. If youre over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. Life, diabetes. Each day is a unique blend of going, doing, and living. 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Dont take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. Tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. Done settling . Ask your rheumatologist for rinvoq. And take back whats yours. Learn how abbvie could help you save. My most important kitchen tool . My brain. So i choose neuriva plus. Unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. To help keep me sharp. Neuriva think bigger. Kansas, vermont, montana, michigan, kentucky, california and now you can add ohio to this list. All of these states have put abortion related measures on the ballot after the overturn of roe v. Wade. And in all seven cases, Abortion Rights won. This week, ohio voters overwhelmingly rejected a gop backed proposal that wouldve made it harder to pass constitutional amendments before a November Vote to enshrines Abortion Rights into the states constitution. It was more or less a proxy war over Abortion Rights, and republicans lost yet again. This Victory Signals what may be one of the republicans biggest tests going into 2024, the other being donald trump. The fall of row has transformed a mixed coalition of liberals, swing, and modern Republican Voters into a united political force. And just as weve seen since the 2018 midterms with donald trump, it can continue into 2024. Joining me now is melissa murray, professor of law at new york university, msnbc legal analyst, and coast strict scrutiny podcast, and back with me, cohost Jennifer Reuben. Illicit, great to have you with us. Do you think its accurate to say that ohio vote shows that look quite frankly republicans have won ohio multiple times over. They won in so many issues in so many races but this was all about abortion, and republicans lost. It wasnt entirely about abortion, ayman. I think abortion is certainly on the ballot. Not in a direct way, but certainly in a way that ohioans understood. But i think more importantly, democracy was on the ballot. The fact that the gop in ohio recognized that when ohioans go to the polls and have an opportunity to register their preferences directly, as opposed to the gerrymandered legislatures, they vote consistently to preserve access to reproductive freedom. So, the gop in ohio took steps to try to limit the opportunity for ohioans to vote directly on questions of Reproductive Rights. Weve seen throughout the country that these direct democracy efforts have been very potent and preserving Abortion Rights are expanding them, and rolling back efforts to limit access to abortion. But the real underlying question here is democracy. The court ended said they were turning this over to the states and the people to decide. But when the people had the chance to do that, it seems that conservatives are not happy to let them do that, to actually let them decide. Jennifer, republicans are clearly up against a powerful force, with Reproductive Rights, Ballot Measures waiting at the state level again and again, almost seven as we mentioned, could even be more states by 2024. Strategically, where does this leave republicans a year out . Well, they should be rethinking their entire tack on not only fundamental rights of privacy, but the positions on many issues, which are wildly out of swing with the voters. One of the other states that we saw, which really was abortion was the, if not one of the, top issues was wisconsin. They had it on election earlier this year that was being contested by in a state thats evenly divided 50 50, its an overwhelming win for the progressive and wing. So, what we see here is that whenever republicans are on the wrong side of an issue, they resort to Voter Suppression, gerrymandering, changing the rules halfway through the game, whether its in tennessee when they try to expel two lawmakers who are speaking out in favor of gun safety laws, or whether its a proposition that they fear is going to come out, quote, the wrong way in november, they seek to monkey around a democracy. And i think its very important that voters see that democracy is not just some abstract thing, its not something that Law Professors and journalists like to talk about. Without democracy, all of these issues that people care about, Reproductive Rights, gun safety, the environment, none of those get done, because the peoples voices squelched. And i think the problem that democrats have is letting voters know about it. The problem that republicans face is their positions are entirely unpopular. Melissa, how do you think state constitutional amendment and she just might shape republicans policy issues on the issue of abortion . And look, its clear they still want to fight against Abortion Rights, or Reproductive Rights, what legal avenues, what legislative avenues do they still have . Well, we have seen the fight for reproductive freedom shift to the states. Many more states have more expansive constitutional rights, both enumerated and unenumerated, that might protect reproductive freedom. Weve seen republicans really take steps to limit that. There also will likely be opportunities for the republicans to shift the Balance Of Power on state supreme courts, to make it harder for those provisions to be interpreted in ways that would be expansive for reproductive freedom. So, were going to see all of this. But again, jennifer is exactly right. The fight for Reproductive Rights is inextricably linked to the right for democracy in the right to vote. You dont get laws like the mississippi law upheld in dogs without a legislator that is so gerrymandered that people can actually register their preferences. You dont get laws like sb8 in texas without that kind of Voter Suppression that makes it hard for individuals who would object to register their preferences. So, Abortion Rights are about voting rights, and theyre inextricably linked and we need to think about all of this as an assault on democracy, not just about questions of reproductive freedom. Fastening conversation, and very, i would have to say, very astute points on the democracy link to Abortion Rights and the fight on that front. Jennifer reuben, melissa murray, thank you so much, greatly appreciated, as always. Next, were going to switch gears and bring you an update on the devastating wildfires in hawaii. Dont go anywhere. Nywhere. More shopping . You should watch your spending honey. Im saving with liberty mutual, mom. 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The traffic was so bad, the fire came up so fast, the people had to abandon their cars and try to run on foot. But the thing was so hot, they jumped into the water. I cry every day since it happened, man, you know. I see it on the news, it hits me. Its, its tough. Its tough to see. Now, the initial cause of the fire is unclear, but powerful winds were generated partly by a category four hurricane several miles south of the island. Wind gusts of over 60 Miles Per Hour combined with the areas already dry conditions helped stoke massive flames. Now, over 2200 structures are destroyed in westmount, most of them residential building. Hawaii governor josh green, i said the damage was estimated around close to six billion dollars, he said the incident is likely to be the largest Natural Disaster in hawaiis history. Stay with us. Were going to have more ayman in just a moment. T a moment l at once. tina all the time. christina but my old network wasnt cutting it. 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Visionworks. See the difference. My most important kitchen tool . My brain. So i choose neuriva plus. Unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. To help keep me sharp. Neuriva think bigger. Wow, you get to watch all your favorite stuff. Its to die for. And its all right here. Streaming was never this easy, you know. This is the way. You really went all out didnt you . Um, its called commitment. Could you turn down the volume . Here, you can try. Get way more into what your into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. Do not go anywhere. Ahead of what is very likely to be Donald Trumps fourth criminal indictment, airy mueller is hosting a special hour, president donald trump, right here on msnbc next. Or will use his Legal Expertise dissect the various cases against the ex president , and what may be next for the president s ongoing legal battles. Illegal and by Emerson Legal analyst and veteran prosecutor Andrew Weissmann and mary mccord. Theyre gonna offer their insights into how these prosecutors might build their cases. Watch prosecuting donald trump right here in just a moment on msnbc, its also of course streaming on peacock as well. And thank you for making time for us. Make sure to catch a man back here on msnbc on saturdays at a, sundays at nine, follow us on twitter, tiktok, and instagram at ayman msnbc. Until we meet again, im ayman medina new york. Prosecuting donald trump begins right now. Have a good night. D night. Princess diana. Shes fascinated the world all over again, courtesy of the crown. The crown of course is getting a lot of buzz. Royal drama, dominating the headlines. It is that diana years but is the netflix portrait the true portrait . Some of this has been fictionalized. This is not a documentary. There is many people involved in royal life involved that think it is far too far from the truth. Now, the riveting real story. She stood up to this huge institution of the british monarchy. She often talked about dark forces. There were allegations of conspiracy to murder. What did you see as you