Transcripts For MSNBCW Ayman 20240704

Is using damning communications from trumps legal team to build a possible Racketeering Case and we will get into that. Alarming threats as ex president ace is more legal challenges. His supporters are sending dangerous messages to the nations most powerful officials then fighting back arizona Secretary Of State Adrienne Fontes joins us to discuss a new wave of Election Denialism a dangerous one. How he is working to protect the 2024 race. Im Ayman Mohyeldin, lets get started. In less than 12 hours the District Attorney fani willis will begin presenting her election interference case to a granary in georgia. Indictments for donald trump and his allies could come down as soon as tuesday evening. Breaking tonight, we are learning about one possible focus of witnesses presentation. A Voting System breach in coffee, county. That is a rural heavily republican area of the state. Now, Text Messages and emails reference in public Court Documents show that lawyers working for trump, coordinated a visit to Coffee Countys Election Office along with Data Specialists hired by ex trump lawyer and Conspiracy Theorist Sydney Powell. The big breaking siren tonight, cnn is now reporting that those Text Messages are indeed part of fani williss investigations and to understand the importance of this revelation i want to give you a little bit more context about it lets go back in time for a moment here. On January 7th 2021 the date after the capital Insurrection Data Forensics Experts from atlanta, from atlantabased firm known as Sullivan Strickler and thats a firm that Sydney Powell hired, allegedly copied information from the Voting Machines in Coffee County in an effort to prove rampant voter fraud existed in the state. Now, the heavily republican part of the state that went overwhelmingly for donald trump might not seem like the most obvious place to find voter fraud but Coffee County used machines made by dominion Voting Systems which was the target of a attacks and conspiracies pushed by fox and conservatives. Video footage obtained last year by nbc news shows kathy latham the former chair of the Coffee County gop escorting the group into the Elections Office. Its worth noting here that they served as one of georgias face electors. We could talk about that in a bit the guardian reports that prosecutors believed they have sufficient evidence for a Racketeering Case. Which would mean charges for not just trump but actually multiple people. Here is the part that might matter most with this Coffee County situation. Quote, the statute itself prohibits the intentional use of a computer or Computer Network without authorization in order to remove data. , either temporarily, or a permanently. It also prohibits interrupting or interfering with the use of a computer as well as altering or damaging a computer. The fact that trumps allies had their eyes on Voting Machines in georgia thats not necessarily new, under of the former white House Counsel derek lions told a jerry Six Committee that Rudy Giuliani spoke about how the Trump Campaign was, quote going to be able to secure access to Voting Machines in georgia through means other than seizure. Todays developments signals this part of the alleged plan to reverse the 2020 Election Results will likely be a big part of the willis case. Meanwhile witnesses are waiting in the weeks just a few, Former Georgia Lieutenant Governor jeff Duncan George cheat there are both set to testify before the grand jury on tuesday. Former state senator jen jordan, state representative bee nguyen, they have also been subpoenaed. Both attended hearings where Rudy Giuliani had urged officials not to certify the georgia Election Results based on debunked conspiracies. Finally, two and a half years after willis first launched her investigation, we are going to learn just how far trump and his allies were apparently willing to go to try to subvert the will of voters in georgia, and the American People at large joining me now to break all of this down, Danny Cevallos, msnbc legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, Jennifer Reuben msnbc political analyst and an Opinion Writer at the washington post, and routinely audio of, a political strategist and opinion colleague us at the daily beast. I will start with you, if fani willis were to use these text that we are learning more about in that other networks have been reported are central to the investigation just walk us through what that means to a possible racketeering charge, how significant will it be that she has these texts showing multiple people involved, people that were linked to the trump orbit. , first georges racketeering statute or rico, as its often called is much broader than its federal counterpart, all you need is an enterprise and the enterprise could be the Trump Campaign it could even arguably the presidency. You need some kind of organization and then a pattern of Racketeering Activity The Georgia Statute lays out about 20 different violations of statutes that can count, in other words racketeering is defined by at least two other crimes that are committed in the course of racketeering. You dont necessarily need to prove the crimes but you need to articulate them so in this case most of the crimes would fall under georgia or voter fraud. These newly acquired Text Messages, to me tend to show, i would least say that the state prosecutors might use those text to show that pattern of Racketeering Activity and the violation of one or more, excuse me in these to be two or more of the Predicate Statutes but thats the kind of evidence that shows communication between people and racketeering does require those other people. There are so many different options even within the rubric of Election Fraud for prosecutors under the georgia statute that the emergence of these Text Messages create a lot of possibilities for prosecutors. Jennifer, another part of the reporting we saw today is that Election Officials allegedly sent a letter of invitation to trumps then lawyers, it was also shared with members of the tech firm who entered the Elections Office in Coffee County, if these local officials are swept up and potential recultured is, what kind of impact will that have. Well, its exactly correct that what we are looking for is a criminal enterprise, now, Fani Willis Is the District Attorney for fulton county. So, there are two predicate acts youre speaking of. You have to have them within fulton county. You could then go outside of fulton county, including to whatever occurred in Coffee County and use that as part of the rico case. That may include trump directly, that may include other associates of trump. That may include local officials. Now, some of these people may already be indictable on other charges. Ictable on othe on the direct fraud, case on the appearance with an official case. This just opens up and broadens the realm of evidence and witnesses that can be brought into this. I think what is significant, we really have not heard anything about this from jack smith. This is a perfect example of how the state and the federal systems really work in tandem. There are some things that smith is going after. He wants it very clean and easy to understand. Focused on those people. Fani willis is looking to sweep up as many georgia defendants and figure out what crimes and how many crimes were committed within her state. We know these indictments have not been hurting trump in the polls. Hes joked about it one more Indictment Being in georgia with secure the republican nomination for him. Racketeering arguably is a different and a whole new ball game. We are talking about alleged Organized Crime here. Could that kind of narrative have any impact. Could it change hearts and minds . So, i think on that side of things there are two different ways to look at it, first among primary voters, i tend to think that if you are this Deep In Trump another indictment i dont think is going to hurt him, as you said these indictments he feels that hes empowered by fighting against the deep, says the swamp, whatever you want to call it. The people that are looking for justice. I think talking about general action voters, i think the average american person once they see that someone wants to be in the white house and has multiple criminal charges and continues to deny crimes that its pretty obvious theyve committed, i, think most voters, My Hope Come November if donald trump is the nominee are going to reject that at the polls. I think hes built up such a cult following, its going to be very hard for people that already support him to run away now. If they drink the koolaid. Danny, i will go back to a point that jennifer made, i thought it was very interesting which is the difference between jack smith and fani willis. Jack smith, as far as we can tell, i mean we know it was mentioned the diamond, obviously it superseding indictments that may change this. There is no mention of Coffee County the coconspirators are not mentioned by name we dont know how into the weeds hes going into georgia except for some of the items identified in that. Thats including the phone call to Brad Raffensperger walk it through why youth he think he did not pursue the investigation into whats happening and Coffee County why might that be different than Fani Willis Is, is it jurisdictional, is there a bigger strategy in terms of the charges hes crafting to go after trump and what fundi bots is. Doing the short answer is he probably didnt need to he didnt need to get into Coffee County to achieve his objectives. By that i mean special counsel jack smith everything about the d. C. Indictment signals that jack smith is looking to streamline this federal prosecution. To get to trial as soon as possible. There are unindicted coconspirators. They are not named personally because additional name defendants would slow the case down. There would be motions to dismiss. Motions to sever motions to transfer a venue. Those would be times five if you added five more codefendants on to that case. So, while jack smith may have known about Coffee County he might not have seen that as important to what he needed to achieve. Of course, the state and federal statutes are difference, even the rico statute. Georgias rico statute is probably broader than the federal rico statute thats probably why jack smith didnt charge it in a sense, jack smith smithson is a little different in that he cannot be seen to charge anything that is remotely along. Shot everything about that indictment is conservative in the sense that he charges that which he thinks he can make up and thats why the incitement to riot or any of the crimes that might be a long shot or that might have a First Amendment defense. Thats probably the. Difference we may never know what was in the minds of either jack smith or Fani Willis Is in terms of what they wanted to pursue. Give me your final thoughts, we may very well see a former president face his fourth indictment. To paraphrase something my colleague Reach Out Maddow has that history will not judge the Department Of Justice or jack smith or fani willis for indicting donald trump but they will history will judge america for electing President Trump and may again put him in the oval office. Well, i really do hope and we will have to see what happens coming this Nomination Process and in the general election, i think American People see the truth. Here i think that the way the federal government with jack smith and the prosecuting george or are laying out facts, its going to be really, really hard for the common average person looking at the facts and seeing whats happening to turn away flint and simply say that whats happening here wasnt a threat to democracy. Wasnt a threat to our country. So, i really appreciate it. Any american who cares about our democracy, cares about the country that has been built on the tenants have actually having a Good Government that works for people they are going to come out another way to vote in november against this sort of antidemocratic tendencies. The facts are obvious. Donald trump for a long time has played with justice. Fought against truth. The truth is coming out. Im confident that people are going to vote against. You are absolutely right, with the framing of democracy. We will be on the ballot. Its this time. Around rick rotimi adeoye, thank you for joining, us danny, jennifer, stick around, we will talk to any other side of the break. The growing legal carris and rightwing Political Violence in this country. Country. vo Verizon Small Business days are back. From august 7th to the 13th. Get a free tech check and special offers. Like a free 5g phone. Plus, switch, keep your number, and get up to 300 off. With Verizon Business. Its your business. Its your verizon. Detect this living with hiv, i learned i can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. Thats why i switched to dovato. Dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. No other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. Detect this most hiv pills contain 3 or 4 medicines. Dovato is as effective with just 2. If you have hepatitis b, dont stop dovato without talking to your doctor. Dont take dovato if youre allergic to its ingredients or taking dofetilide. 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Xfinity rewards creates experiences big and small, and onceinalifetime. Wow, you get to watch all your favorite stuff. Its to die for. And its all right here. Streaming was never this easy, you know. This is the way. You really went all out didnt you . Um, its called commitment. Could you turn down the volume . Here, you can try. Get way more into what your into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. This, week the faa shot and killed a utah man who allegedly made online threats to kill President Biden in manhattan District Attorney alvin bragg wellserved a warrant at his private home. The man mentioned many other politicians in his threats, including new York Attorney general letitia, James Merrick garland, california governor gavin newsom, according to the charging documents. He had, quote, Intent To Kill at a minimum the a bragg and president joe biden. The language this man used and the people he targeted with these threats is not anomalous his words echo the views of not insignificant number of Trump Supporters and was always donald trump and other highprofile republicans are there to yet again fanned the flames just listen to what matt gaetz said yesterday in iowa. We are having a great time. We love standing with you. We know that only through root for us to make any change in a corrupt town like washington, d. C. Only through force. Well, the report last month from the University Of Chicago found that between april and june of 2023 americans agreeing that the use of force is justified to Restore Donald Trump to the presidency increased from 4 , from 4. 5 to 7 . Now, that might not sound like a big jump, if its an increase of 6 Million People from 12 to 18 million, you get a sense of how significant it is. Just days after u. S. District judge Tanya Chutkan was named to the trump election interference case, nbc news reports she has, now u. S. Marshals following her to protect her. This as trump criticizes judge chutkan, excuse me, judge tuck in on social media on a daily basis. According to reuters, Political Violence in the United States is at its highest since the 1970s. It contrasts to the 70s, the violence is overwhelmingly aimed at people rather than property. Its coming from the right. Joining me now is clint watts, Msnbc National Security analyst and acme, Again Cevallos and Jennifer Reuben. Let me start by talking about the news of this week, this Fatal Shooting of a man in utah who had threatened to kill Government Officials. The story did not get enough attention in this country are carli get a friend of ours msnbc frankly it wrote no one should be surprised by this developments. In fact, i would be surprised if we dont see more violence threats against Government Officials given the incendiary rhetoric from trump and his supporters. Your take on what played out this week. Yeah, and fortunate i meant but not surprising in any way. As soon as you saw the indictments come out in recent weeks you start to hear the same kinds of violent rhetoric that weve heard over the years. I think the key point, this time, not about mobilizing to a certain point, we havent seen that when the former President Trump gets indicted, we dont see large crowds mobilizing in the way we did for january six but we have seen for at least the last eight years is still casting terrorism. , essentially the target is known the attacker is not we see this language and i have to say one of the things that i find most interesting is a ten years ago we are talking about ices worsened makes an online threat, and then we see them actually do an online attack, we might not see the fbi or dhs step in and be able to connect the dots, in this case they absolutely did this is been going on for several months. They did whats known as a Contact Meeting with this individual, he not only double, down he escalated after the Contact Meeting with the fbi so i think this is one of those very specific examples where you have motive, you have a place where the individuals talking about social, media but having weapons and what he would do i only see more of these on the horizon as long as the temperature continues to say very hot the way we saw with that talk in iowa right before i came on here clint, these numbers as i try to put them in context from a recent poll, they tell us a lot. As i, mentioned between april 6th and june 26 of this, year during which time the indictment against trump and the classified documents case was unveiled, there was an estimated increase of what amounts to 6 million americans who agreed that force is justified to Restore Donald Trump to power. That is a dangerous threshold to cross. Do you attribute this intensifying commitment to violence, to trump, to other republicans like matt gaetz saying only force is the way to change d. C. . It is a couple things. Weve seen this before. Its 50 increase. It is highly correlated to the events in recent months. In terms of these indictments and court charges. Id like to remind everybody that in an Election Year this is when we tend traditionally in the United States to see a spike in domestic terrorism or domestic extremism and theres a lot of tension and a lot of boiling thats going to come up as we head into 2024. We are right at 15 minutes. The debates are starting soon i would think if you just look at the rhetoric and then you look at the, trends we are going into a really dangerous. Period what im hopeful for is in the post january six era you saw lots of more mobilized and organize groups really get broken up. They disintegrated. They were prosecuted for being at january six. Or you have these major cases with the proud boys where they are prosecuted hopefully that will stymie some of the more organized violence i think the challenges that we will see over the next 15 months is the one off stochastic terrorism someone whos sitting around waiting for some sort of signal or where to point their aims showing up to do some sort of violence. You quoted frank there in the beginning i would have to agree with the assessment. We have a long way to go, at least in the current context i dont see any reason that the Boiling Point would simmer down at this point. I have to ask you about judge Tanya Chutkan. Here she has increased security u. S. Marshals around her which we have to say seems connected to what happened in recent days and weeks with trump going after her almost daily on social media. We know donald trump has taken out i believe tv ads criticizing fani willis and thats going to put her in some kind of danger. At least from the rhetoric that weve seen directed at her. What does this mean when you have all of the judges and prosecutors and lead investigators on a case constantly surrounded by security. Is this going to be the new norm for our country, what does that say . I dont think it would be the no. Mark normal. I think itll be a low point. And then there will never again be another defendant in court quite like the former president donald trump. His power to influence others and supporters. There is nobody, no highprofile defendant thats ever had that kind of influence hopefully this is just a spike a temporary period, i am somewhat believing the idea that at least in a federal courthouse for example once the judge gets inside the federal courthouse, a pretty robust security so anyone in a federal courthouse has to go through quite a few layers. The idea that the judges need to worry about going home or on the way to and from their car or just going about their daily life, its a scary thought, the same for prosecutors. Two ive often gotten aston. I think prosecutors do to, are you worried about the people you prosecute. I think most prosecutors would tell you yeah they think about it but not really. I guess theres always this informal understanding that criminals just sort of leave them out of the lab. Recognizing if you went after one prosecutor, there will always be another one. There will always be another. Dutchman au, i say this cautioning that there have been assaults and attacks on assassinations even of federal judges in the not too distant past. In the last couple decades. So these are the kinds of things that are absolutely something that are top of mind for prosecutors for judges. Hopefully im optimistic that this is a temporary thing and once these prosecutions of trump or over it will return to the normal we knew before. I want to share your optimism. I want to get jennifers thoughts on this but i have to put it against the context of where we are as a country, jennifer. And that is as, i mentioned, in this reuters report. Political violence is at its worst since the airlie 1970s. Thats about 50 years. Ago that report found that many of the fatal bouts of violence since january 6th have come from one side and that is the right. D that is th righ yes, i have written about this repeatedly by the fbi has a statutory duty to begin to collect information on these groups. It has failed to do so this is a shortcoming of Christopher Wray Congress Needs to exercise extreme oversight in continuing to gather intelligence continuing to talk about issues that are uncomfortable like radicalization of people in the military like radicalization of people in law enforcement. I think we should keep something in mind. First of all we saw it then in conjunction with the maralago case that there was an individual who went to the fbi offices and cincinnati and he was ready to kill fbi officers. Part of the anger and part of the rhetoric that you see drummed up on the right is directed towards law enforcement. Its not only the courts its not only trumps accusers. Its police officers, if the fbi and that kind of rhetoric is extremely dangerous. You will have people who do want to act on that. The other thing that i have been saying is the role of rightwing. Media these people would not get the constant barrage of messages if not for the echo chamber of rightwing media that repeats and that elevates and that makes this seem normal it makes this seem like the average individual is doing something that a Major Political party a Major Political movement wants them to do. And we have a First Amendment right. I think we also have to have a level of responsibility and a public that is no longer willing to put up with a media that Frankly Aids And Abets violence. And we have to come up with some better ways of addressing that. And one of the ways we can do it is really looking at some of the rules on social media. Social media obviously plays a very big role in this so this is a large problem it has to do with many different facets of american society. But ignoring it will not make it go away. We certainly cannot. We cant become numb to it and most importantly, we cannot normalize the kind of language that we hear from people like matt gaetz and others and just kind of dismiss it as political rhetoric. We have to do better as a society. Clint watts, Danny Cevallos thank you so much. Jennifer, please stick around we will talk to you again later on in the hour. Ahead, another threat from the right. Fresh amplification of election denial. I will speak with arizona Secretary Of State aryan fontes after the break to discuss his fight to end the big lie once and for all. Stay with us. Stay with us christina with Verizon Business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. So, no matter what, im running this kitchen. vo make the switch. Its your business. Its your verizon. What do we always say, son . Liberty mutual customizes your Car Insurance. So you only pay for what you need. Thats my boy. Stay off the freeways only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. When i was diagnosed with hiv, i didnt know who i would be. But here i am. Being me. Keep being you. And ask your Healthcare Provider about the number one prescribed hiv treatment, biktarvy. Biktarvy is a complete, onepill, onceaday treatment used for hiv in many people whether youre 18 or 80. 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Its your business. Its your verizon. Donald trump has been indicted and likely be indicted again to overturn the 2020 elections. The Election Denialism does not start, and it does not and with donald trump. One of the states where these efforts are still very much alive is arizona former arizona gop governor terrell nominee kari lake is reportedly staffing up for a Senate Campaign in anticipation of an october launch making it ground zero to replay and relitigate gop losses in the last two elections. It is august of 2023. And lake, believe it or not, has still not conceded her november 22 loss. Officials who actually won their 2022 elections are fighting these election deniers. Arizonian attorney general chris mays is currently investigating the states slate of 2020 Fake Electors, part of the broader gop election subversion effort. It was outlined in jack smiths indictment. Another official fighting the good faith, arizona Secretary Of State Adrienne Fontes. Who joins me again on this program. Mister secretary, its always a pleasure, thank you so much for coming on the show. Let me get your reaction to the Election Interference Indictment against donald trump. Much of what came out in the latest charges must hit Close To Home for. You and now your states attorney general chris mays is investigating the arizona Fake Electors scheme. Give me your thoughts on all of it. Well, look, first and foremost thank you for having me. It is about time. I think this indictment came a little slower than a lot of us wanted it to. Had seen in the general Six Committees investigation on capitol hill, a lot of this information came out sometime ago. We are glad its here. However, some of the other things that Attorney General Mays is working on, the Governors Task force here in arizona, and the work that we are doing not just with our basic procedures, but with suring up some of the folks that weve lost. Weve lost a lot of election experts here in the state with explorers. So, we are pushing forward on all fronts to make sure that we can keep our democracy safe and free and secure in arizona. As far as the indictments specifically is concerned, i am glad that the wheels of justice are turning. I absolutely believe that the criminal defendant should have all of his rights upheld through the process. These latest indictment lays out the charges and they are just against. Trump there is still so much more to hold him and perhaps others to account for and other states. Talk to me a little bit about how officials like yourself are fighting back to shore up our elections and trying to root out Election Denialism. Is this going to be sadly a new normal for our politics, when a candidate like carolinas is the election instead of being magnanimous and conceding and bringing americans together to scream and shout and cry foul and say the election was stolen and rigged. First of all, the concession is never a mandatory part of our political process, it is what jim deal has honored and done. So, folks that dont want to concede, tough, we are going to keep governing without. Them she is not the governor. That really isnt that big of a deal. As far as the rest of us is concerned, we are continuing to do the work that we were elected to do. Or appointed to do. By various supervisors, our election, directors are 15 counties are, our County Recorders our elected officials, i am elected official. We are going to keep doing the work that arizonas have asked us to do. We dont have anything but the truth. And our integrity and our honor. Guess what, that is enough. All they have is lies and unfounded conspiracy theories. Those have fallen apart over and over and over again. I think the division that youve seen on the political right is unfortunate. We used to have a very healthy Republican Party in arizona. It was reasonable, it was levelheaded, it worked out the business, it worked on governance. Now we have something a little bit different. So, i think arizonas voters are going to respond in kind the way they did in 22. Escorts the Conspiracy Theorists and the insurrectionist for the most part out the door. So, you bring up an interesting point. I certainly agree with you, concessions or not mandatory in our system. They are certainly a hallmark of our traditions. The world used to appreciate that and admire us for it. How do we tamp down on these amplification lies. We are seeing them for people like kari lake and trump. We thought it might be over with trump. Its not. So, a fair enough on how we strengthen the institutions. Then how do we camp down on the application of the lies . What did he do to get rid of this spreading further north society . Well, im going to have to put it back just a little bit on you. As my host here, the fact that youre talking about the notion that she has not conceded is amplification of the unamerican practice that she is engaged in. If we stop talking about it because its irrelevant because his own reporters and because the we will have to deal with that part of it. Moving forward, i think what we have to do is continue to talk about the people who actually run our elections, these are regular american citizens. They are just normal folks who want to help. They are the ones who have been cast under. They are reputation and integrity and honor is whats being questioned by these elections analysis. Weve got to tell their story, not just folks like the elected officials and some of these other folks in the offices. The people that do the polling places. The people that are operating the vote centers be adjudication. They are just regular citizens that took an oath to do the vast and theyve done it and they will continue to do it and thats how were going to break through this thing again respectfully we talked an awful lot about the shiny object the real work is continuously being done. Youre absolutely right let me say very clearly the media is not above scrutiny in this country. You are always welcome to come and hold us account just like any other institution in this country. I greatly appreciate your honesty and your candor. Thats why we love having you on you are always welcome. Arizona Secretary Of State Adrienne Fontes, thank you, sir, i always appreciate it. Ahead, the biggest red flag for republicans ahead of the 2024 elections, believe or not, its not donald trump. But my old internet, was not letting me run the show. So, we switched to Verizon Business internet. They have business grade internet, nationwide. vo make the switch. Its your business. Its your verizon. 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Plus, switch, keep your number, and get up to 300 off. With Verizon Business. Its your business. Its your verizon. Kansas, vermont, montana, michigan, kentucky, california and now you can add ohio to this list. All of these states have put abortion related measures on the ballot after or the overturn of roe v. Wade. And on all seven cases, Abortion Rights one. This week Ohio Betters Ridge overwhelmingly rejected a gop backed proposal that wouldve made it harder to pass constitutional amendments before a constitutional vote to inch Rain Constitution Abortion Rights into the cause it was a proxy war over Abortion Rights and republicans lost yet again. This Victory Signals what may be one of the republicans biggest tests going into 2024, the other being donald trump. The fall of row trans forms moderates republicans into a united Political Force and just as we have seen since the 2018 midterms it can continue to 2024. Emerson b. C. Legal analyst joins me now and back with us Jennifer Reuben, and melissa. Do you think its accurate to say that the ohio vote shows that look quite frankly republicans have won ohio multiple times over. They won in so many issues in so many races but this was all of abortion and republicans lost. Wasnt entirely about abortion. I think it abortion is certainly on the ballot not in a direct way but in a way that ohioans understood, but i think more importantly democracy was on the ballot. I think the fact that the gop in ohio recognize that when ohioans go to the polls and register their preferences directly as opposed to her gerrymandered legislatures, they vote consistently to vote for access to reproductive freedom, so the gop in ohio took steps to limit the ability for of ions to vote directly on questions of Reproductive Rights. Weve seen throughout the country that these Democracy Efforts have been a very potent in preserving Abortion Rights and, Rolling Back Limits to limit access to abortion. The court in dobbs said they were turning this over to the states and the people to decide, but when that people have the chance to do that it seems that conservatives are not happy to let them do that, to actually let them decide. Jennifer, republicans are clearly up a powerful force with reproductive force measures winning at the state level again and again maybe even more states by 2024. Excuse. Me strategically where does this leave republicans a year out . Well they should be rethinking their entire attack not only on fundamental rights or privacy but position on many issues which are wildly out of swing with the voters. One of the other states that we saw with really abortion was the issue was wisconsin. They had on election over it this year for reap a state thats even it is divided with overwhelming when for the progressive side. I think what we see here that whenever republicans are on the wrong side of an issue they resort to voter suppression, gerrymandering, changing the rules halfway through the game, whether its in tennessee when they tried to expel two lawmakers who are speaking out in favor of Gun Safety Laws or whether its a proposition that they fear is Gonna Come Out Quote The Wrong Way in november. They seek to monkey around with democracy. I think its very important that we realize a democracy is just not some abstract thing that Law Professors in journalist like to talk about. Without democracy, all of these issues the people talk about, Reproductive Rights, gun safety, the environment, none of those get done because the peoples voice is squelched. I think that the problem that democrats have is letting voters know about it. The public problem that republicans face is that their positions are entirely unpopular. Melissa, how do you think state constitutional amendment issues might shape the republicans policies on the issue of abortion . Look its clear, that they still want to fight against Abortion Rights to Reproductive Rights. What legal avenues, what legislative avenues do they still have . Well, we have seen the fight for reproductive freedom shift to the states. Many more states have expensive constitutional rights, boasting numerator a numerator that reproductive freedom. Weve seen republicans take steps to limit. That will also be quite likely to be opportunities for republicans to shift the balance of power on state Supreme Court to make it harder for those provisions to be interpreted in ways that would be expensive for reproductive freedom. Were gonna see all of this. But again, jennifer is exactly right. The fight for Reproductive Rights is inextricably linked to the right for democracy and the right to vote. You look at laws like the mississippi law upheld in dobbs it is so gerrymandered the people cant legislate their preferences. You dont get laws like that in texas and makes Abortion Rights are about Voting Rights theyre inextricably linked and we need to think about all of this is an assault on democracy, not just the questions of reproductive freedom. Fascinating conversation and very i would have to say astute points on the democracy linked to Abortion Rights in the fight on that front. Jennifer reuben, Melissa Murray thank you very much appreciated as always. Next, well switch gears and bring in update on the devastating wildfires in hawaii. Dont go anywhere. Go anywhere. bobby my store and my Design Business . Were exploding. But my old internet, was not letting me run the show. So, we switched to Verizon Business internet. 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The west maui wildfires now theyre deadliest in u. S. Modern history. Surpassing the campfire theyre killed 85 in california. At least 93 have died with that number expected to rise, search reference continue. Across the islands efforts are underway to access people to food and, shelter and other essentials. They are trying to find out why the aerates by the sirens did not alert. We didnt know time to evacuate. I my ex wife, her mom and dad died in the house, they never had a chance. The traffic so that, the people had to abandon their cars and try to run on foot. There was so hot they jumped into the water. I cry every day since it happened you know. I see the news and it hits me. Its tough, its tough to see. The initial cause of the fire is unclear but powerful winds were generated partly by a category four hurricane several hundred miles south of the island. When you get 60 Miles Per Hour combined the areas already dry conditions helped stoke massive flames. 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Thank you for making time for us. Make sure to catch ayman and you see back here son is it it, and tiktok at eamonn as aim in msnbc. Until we meet again i am Ayman Mohyeldin in new york. Prosecuting donald trump begins right now. Have a good night. Donaldwhen it welcome to msnbc special prosecuting donald trump at this pivotal extraordinary moment of the trials of the former president , current candidate and defend donald trump. Im ari melber and our aim is to go beyond the daily headlines a look at the stakes, Criminal Justice priorities of these unprecedented cases. To do that, im joined by doj