It is sunday, august 13th. You are watching velshi on msnbc. Im Charles Coleman junior, filling in from my friend, ali velshi. Georgia, georgia, no piece did i find but that Fulton County indictment thats on my mind. Im paraphrasing from the great greg charles. Georgia on the might of a lot of people, including donald trump, were a fourth possible criminal indictment of the former president could be filed in a matter of days. The states former lieutenant governor, jeff duncan, said yesterday that hes received notice asking him to appear before the grand jury on tuesday. Additionally, independent journalists, george, posted on social media that he received a call from the office of Fulton County district attorney, fani willis, also asking him to come in on tuesday to give his testimony. These are still the clearest finds out that fani willis will present her case to the grand jury in the coming weeks and pursue a criminal indictment in the States Election interference case. Security measures and Law Enforcement presence have noticeably increased around and in Fulton County courthouse. In recent days. This also is fueling further speculation that an indictment is imminent. Willis has previously said that any Charging Decisions regarding this matter will be announced before september 1st, which is just about two weeks away. And then, on top of that, this morning, cnn is reporting that georgia prosecutors have evidence the former president s legal team was directly involved with a Voting System breach shortly after the 2020 election. This is really big news. According to cnn, prosecutors have emails and Text Messages that directly linked trumps team to the intent by local allies to access Voting Systems in georgia as early as january of 2021. Now, nbc news has not independently verified this information, nor have we seen the messages cited in the report. But this is still very explosive stuff that can make fani williss indictment a blockbuster. Joining me to unpack all of this is the great jill winebanks. She previously served as a Special Assistant to the Watergate Scandal as a prosecutor. She is my friend and also an msnbc legal analyst. Jill, so glad to join you. Youve also written the watergate girl, My Fight For Truth And Justice against the criminal president. We also have with us marks they, a Managing Partner of and an adjunct professor at Johns Hopkins university, as well as being the Executive Director and founder of the James Madison project. Its great to have you both. Jill, i would get started with you. Former prosecutor, you know this like anyone else, its not being reported that donald trump and possibly others could be charged under a in georgia. Im talking to how significant this is. Could you break this down for our viewers . Just in terms of, you know, when youre talking about a group of people being indicted under a rico statute, how significant is that . Why does it matter so much . One of the reasons, charles, that it matters so much is that it has a minimum mandatory sentence. That is scary. It is not a maximum, its a minimum and its mandatory. That means jail time for whoever is convicted under the statute. It also allows the prosecutor, i have to point out, d. A. Willis has been very successful in using these charges in other cases. Although it was originally created for Organized Crime, while i was in the Organized Crime section, it has been used well beyond the mafia. So, it could be that there will be a lot of in the ordinary case, you wanted to name all the conspirators in one place. That could lead to some of them flipping because of the mandatory minimum sentence. Its a very big danger for donald trump. Also allows proof of an overarching conspiracy with individual predicate acts, the underlying crimes that were part of the goal of overturning the election, of committing a coup. It can be very dramatic. It cannot be pardoned, except by a special committee within the state of georgia. Even the governor does not have individual power to pardon such a crime. It has a lot of components that make it very dangerous to donald trump and his conspirators. Thats exactly right. Ive been saying that this is not a civil case like e. Jean carroll or Laetitia James in new york. Its not a local case like alvin bragg. Most importantly, this is not a case like jack smith where there is a potential pardon at the end of the rainbow here. In terms of Fulton County and donald trump, of all of his legal troubles that are currently on the board, this is the one where there is likely no way out for him, which is why he needs to take this very seriously and he has to be extremely concerned about whatever fani willis is presenting in the grand jury this week. Mark, if hes charged under rico statute, this could be way more expensive than what were seeing from jack smith and special counsels Election Interference Case and involve a number of different people around or in trumps orbit. How might that complicate things for donald trump . Well, as jill said, its much more likely that somebody is going to flip, especially if its someone whos not necessarily the sink offend we see in all the other cases where hes paying their legal fees, i presume this might be some regular georgia residents who were part of the election process, who got roped in, similar to what were seeing in michigan. There is also, it appears, there could very well be a number of attorneys. That could be incredibly dangerous to donald trump because if the Attorney Client privilege is breached, that means, i know about the communications i have with clients for strategizing, with the assumption and understanding those will never be public. Im not conspiring to create criminal offenses, it gives State Of Mind of not only myself as the lawyer, but of the client as well. That obviously can be incredibly damning to the president , the former president. Jill, weve had so much conversation about Fulton County, everything thats going on in south florida, as well as jack smiths charges in d. C. But lets remember that there is still the grand jury in d. C. Thats also meeting. What does that tell us . What do you think that means in terms of any more potential federal indictments that could be filed against the former president . I obviously, it raises the question of whether there will be charges in d. C. We also have to look at the minister. He disclosed confidential documents, classified documents at his club in new jersey. So, its also possible there could be charges against him, brought their. Then, he was very important because wherever the crime is committed is where prosecutor must bring the charges. So, i think there are many more that could possibly be. We dont really know exactly what those other possibilities are, whether theyre checks fraud would be in d. C. , theres so many possibilities that it could be, at some point, there are enough cases that you can cover every possible criminal conduct. And were gonna have to get to trial on some of the ones that have already been brought. Joel, with that point, i want to ask you very quickly, if youre jack smith, given what you just said, which case, what case, whats the priority . You know, theyre all important violations of our laws. To me, i would have to say that the coup attempt is the most important. It was intended to take down the very fundamental pillars of our democracy. It was a deliberate and consistent, well orchestrated plan that involved many moving parts, laid out in the Election Interference indictment. It includes, of course, the fake electors, a dramatic thing. It could also involve the County Interference with the computer. It also involves every other thing that is alleged in that indictment. There are several conspiracies. The bottom line is it makes every american a victim because it is intended to deprive us of the right to have all of our votes counted and to have the person who won the election actually put into office. It interfered with the peaceful transfer of power. To me, thats the most important. Having served in the pentagon, thought with classified information, thats also important. We cannot have someone disclosing or wrongfully retaining and putting in danger any of our national secrets. Thats also important. Every one of these cases is important. Its important that state laws, indicated through state prosecutions. I think, you know, new york and georgia are important cases as well. Its really hard to pick, one sorry, charles, cannot help there. You did your best, i appreciate that as always. Msnbc legal analyst, jill winebanks, and marks i, thank you both. Still to come, as we gear up for an unprecedented election, will investigate why Republican Voters tend not to believe what they hear from the people they vote for and why they vote for them anyways. Plus, we marked 15 years of hiphop, threats history, hiphop in the criminal Justice System have put one another on trial. Ill talk about it with professor as well as legendary rapper, bundy. And the latest on the Rescue Efforts in hawaii. Now experiencing the deadliest wildfire in modern american history. What you can do to help. We will be right back after a short break. Im Charles Coleman junior, sitting in for ali velshi, youre watching velshi on msnbc. G velshi o msnbc. The titan turkey. Piled high with double the cheese and more meat. I proffer freshly sliced turkey. Its my favorite mouth guard flavor. Mmmm. Now available at subway. The sub, not the mouth guard. Tourists tourists that turn into scientists. 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Nbcs dana griffin reports on the humanitarian efforts underway. By air, by sea, and by road, supplies are being delivered throw maui to those cut off and displaced. When we first left, it was literally the clothes on her back. Giannis and say they barely escaped the flames and lahaina. Now, there among the estimated 4500 people in the island in desperate need of housing. Whats the state of your home . The complex have buildings that are burned, buildings that are standing. Ours is standing, but we cannot get in because of the downed power lines, no running water, no electricity. And she says even though Police Officer helped them get inside briefly to retrieve clothing, the apartment will never be inhabitable again. They now need a place to sleep, food, water, and a way to survive moving forward. Its a very Close Community and lahaina, like, my job, the building burned down. Some people are without jobs. We have trucks full of supplies, more trucks full of supplies. Across maui, residents have been doing what they can to help. Maui prep will be doing Food Distribution at 11 a. M. And with phone Service Still disrupted, Radio Stations like 93. 5 fm are broadcasting extra hours to get messages out about resources and trying to help families reconnect. We have our lahaina people, people in the west side who are cut off from communication. Its been really tough for them to communicate with the side and vice versa. Five days after the devastating fire broke out, so many people still are unaccounted for. Do you know if anyone made it or didnt make it, are still missing . Yes, so, we have a couple people that were still looking for from our congregation. Minister Historical Church and lahaina was destroyed. She shared this image of the church before the wildfire. This is what it looks like now. Our thanks to nbcs dana griffin for that report. If you want to help but with the effort, please reach out to any of the organizations you see here on the screen. Next, some Republican Voters are reluctant to take donald trump at his word. For example, when he said he would restrict abortion, didnt actually think it would happen. This is the mindset that is putting our democracy in peril. We will have more after a short break, right here on velshi on msnbc. Well be right back. ll be right back. You need sinex saline from vicks. Just sinex, breathe, ahhhh [sniffs] what is wow baby daddy. Sinex. Breathe. Ahhhhhh family is just very important. Shes my sister and, we depend on each other a lot. Shes the rock of the family. Shes the person who holds everything together. Its a battle, you know im going to be there. Keytruda and chemotherapy meant treating my cancer with two different types of medicine. In a clinical trial, keytruda and chemotherapy was proven to help people live longer than chemotherapy alone. 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Some describe it as an intense Burning Sensation or an unbearable itch. This painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. It could make your workday feel impossible. The virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. If youre 50 years or older, ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles. Welcome back to velshi on msnbc. Im Charles Coleman junior in for ali velshi. Here we are again on the cusp of yet another unprecedented election in this country. So, the front runner for the republican nomination is the guy who is fighting off charges of trying to overturn the last election which he lost while he was running for office again now, its really really messy. Stay with us. What it actually means though, and this may sound alarming, ultimately, our democracy is at stake in the next election. Its been very hard to decipher American Politics in the trump era. Steve benen, producer for the Rachel Maddow show and msnbc legal contributor, may have cracked open a major clue just this week. In focus groups full of voters from trumps political rise in 2016, also going back decades earlier, they actually dont believe facts about republican plans and policies. Its almost like you tell them one thing, they dont hear it, and then they still vote in favor of republicans. See, a lot of people got it wrong in 2016, a lot of very smart people did not expect donald trump to win. We know that he did, we know that when he did, he tapped into a dangerous emotional core of the republican party. White nationalism, white grievance, white replacement theories, all these things were things he capitalized that people couldnt see. But he got over the finish line because there werent enough voters who actually believed that he was going to do what he did, even though he told them what he planned. Joining me now to break this all down is the aforementioned steve bannon, author of msnbcs model blog and producer for the Rachel Maddow show. Founder of the strategies and political strategist thank you for being here. Steve, the first example of the theory mentioned is in your piece from 2016 when democratic cylinder lake spoke to voters about the possibility of trump threatening abortion rights. Tell me more about what was then and what you think about that now in hindsight. So, in 2016, democratic pollsters, democratic strategist, Republican Voters, independent voters, centrist, extreme voters, said, heres what donald trump wants to do it when it comes to reproductive rights. He wants to overturn roe, all new in restrictions, defund planned parenthood, this is agenda, state agenda. These voters heard this and said, no, cant believe it, its too radical, too extreme, its to cartoonishly malevolent. Just incredulous when presented with this Accurate Information, created an additional burden for democratic strategist. What do you do when you provide voters with Accurate Information and they simply find unbelievable . Steve, this isnt a new trump era mindset, this is not something that just came about. Voters have had a hard time believing that republicans would, for example, get rid of abortion for a while. They didnt expect them to actually implement these sorts of policies as widely as they have. As you did more research, where there are other things you saw that you came across over the last ten, 20 years, that sort of drove this point home for you . Sure, absolutely. It was 20 years going for started seeing this phenomena kick in an earnest. Republicans were responding to 9 11 by proposing tax cuts for billionaires. Democratic strategist once the voters with this, completely incredulous, it seemed so ridiculous. When for example came out with his budget agenda, it was gonna medicare among other things. Again, went to focus groups, again, the voters are saying, no, no, couldnt possibly be doing that, its just too radical, its too extreme. So, we see this pattern over and over again where the republican agenda, when described accurately, its met with this incredible confusion and resistance from voters, even though this information is readily available and completely accurate, there is this resistance because it seems too much, too radical. You understand voters and you have an appreciation for data, which is paramount in todays world. You also have a particular understanding of Republican Voters. Is what steves saying bringing true to in terms of what we know and what the data actually tells us . Well, what steve is touching on is data meeting messaging. As a Capitol Hill Helper in the 2010 era, i can tell you, when the Tea Party Really came to be and hit the consciousness of Many Republican members in congress, it was something that i sought to really match up quite quickly, that alignment of, how are you talking about what congress does, what we can do for you from capitol hill. That messaging really was resonating with these people who were pretty angry as time went on, the Tea Party Folks who, again, were building their own chapters across the country. What these members of congress are saying is that where do nothing congress. We are far and away. We know best, you dont. Its hypocritical, right . But what i realize, fast forward to 2023, here where we, Sit Deep Distrust and what our bodies actually do and how republican electorate sees its place in the world, sees its place in the country, and then most importantly, how they see themselves not to be partners and democracy anymore, much less needing to promote it. To that point, around messaging, a lot of conversations really talk about the notion of clearly misinformation versus low information voters. Is that what this is about . The notion of Misinformation Being promulgated at such a high level where people are not able to separate the weed from the or is there something bigger at work thats causing this to take place . I believe both things can be true. In the era of rapid news and vast amount of news, of course, the foreign news as well. For a lot of voters, there is that sense that we cannot trust any official to handle these big Kitchen Table issues. Theyre not only so disinterested, there are no longer capable. So, what im saying is that you have a republican electorate that is by and large buying whatever flavor of koolaid is being sold that day. Thats really dangerous because as we all know, there are huge issues that could be the republican elected officials could be taking to these voters, putting it in a different way in the post trump presidency, and say, look at biden, hes not addressing cost of living, we havent got a plan to prevent the next pandemic, and on top of it, why dont we bring Back Conservatism when it applies to migrants taking asylum within our borders . So, again, the ability to have that capitalization on the issues and the messaging on that, its unable to happen because of the lay of the land. Steve, last question to you. Weve seen this movement before now. We know how it ends. Donald trump said he was gonna do it, then he did it. Is there any evidence, as we head into 2024, that because donald trump has followed up on his previous promises with respect to extremity and extreme messaging that that is going to impact anything in terms of how people vote, does that seem to be penetrating in terms of people now understanding, look, this guy is actually serious about however extremist messages are, hes going to try to carry these things out . Thats a great question, charles. Im glad you asked it. I think its one of the most important factors to keep in mind looking ahead to the 2024 campaign. When he ran in 2016, it was more or less a black box, this is something where we didnt know what hes gonna do in terms of his policy making, he didnt have a platform, didnt have an agenda, didnt have a record, he never served an elected office. Now, it is an entirely different ball game. People who are skeptical of the claims, when democrats were describing his agenda to them, those voters now realize that he actually intends to follow through on a lot of these ideas. He has a radical agenda for 2024, and while these voters are in a position to realize, when this guy makes these bold promises about extremism, he intends to follow through on that. I think that will affect the electorate a great deal. Facts, data, and messaging. Steve bannon and reena shaw, thank you so much. Coming up, you will never believe what is now being targeted in rhonda sentences florida. Hint, hundreds of years old, vital to the english language, and has terrorized seventh graders for generations. That will be right after the break on velshi. Im Charles Coleman junior sitting in for ali velshi. Stay tuned, well be right back. Be right back repairs hair. As well as the leading luxury bonding treatment. For softness and resilience, without the price tag. If you know. You know its pantene. Pano ai chooses tmobile for business for 5g solutions. Because tmobile helps pano ai innovate, so they can stop the spread of wildfires. Nows the time to see what americas largest 5g network can do for your business. Are we a reflection of our places in life, or are they reflections of us . Could we have been somebody else if we had taken a right turn instead of a left . Or if we had taken the place with the hot tub or the one uptown . We went downtown. Could we be fabulous or fantabulous . Yes, yes. We sure could. With apartments. Coms multitudes of listings, our possibilities and yours, are truly multitudinous. echoes shhhh. Apartments. Com the place to find a place. Welcome back to velshi unrest nbc. Florida students and teachers are headed back to school this fall under the Tightening Grip of republican governor, ron desantis. Schools across the state are struggling to comply with the newly expanded version of what critics have long referred to as the dont say gay law. Its a sweeping package of education restrictions and it now includes language restricting Classrooms Discussions or books with socalled sexual content. But there is a backfire Boomerang Effect to this. It has taken shape and none other than William Shakespeares perhaps most famous work that is not being censored in at least one Florida School district. Includes tampa, says it will be assigned only excerpts of romeo and juliet, but not the entire play. I really wish i had had this back when i was in school. According to the district, this decision was made in part to comply with desantiss law and to avoid the parts of the play that might be considered too racy or sexual in nature. Now, there are so many reasons to read and study shakespeare, so many other classics as well, including the last and cultural influence, the historical significance, and the beauty of the language. The words of shakespeare and everything that was invented and has come through it, these are still part of our lexicon today, more than 400 years later. Next week, the Velshi Banned Book Club is going to dive into romeo and juliet, the whole play, not just the excerpts, and explore a few passages you dont want to miss this, it is going to be a great discussion as part of alleys discussion with an allstar panel of shakespearean experts. Pick up a new copy of the tragedy or dust off your old book if youve kept it, send us your reactions to the play, as well as your reactions to it not being censored as a result of the new law in florida. You can send those to my story at velshi. Com. Now, after the break, hiphop has long been indicted the Justice System, for as long as it has been indicting the Justice System, the Justice System has responded in kind. Im going to be talking to professor imani perry, mark anthony neil, and the legendary bun b to discuss this treasured art form as it celebrates 50 years of existence. Stay tuned, well more velshi coming up. Im Charles Coleman junior, in four ali today. We will be right back. Bhtack. Tmobile for business for 5g solutions. To not only enhance the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. Nows the time to see what americas largest 5g network can do for your business. When you shop wayfair, you get big deals for your home every day. What americas so big, well have you saying. Am i a big deal . Yeah you are, because its a big deal, when you get a big deal. Wayfair deals so big that you might get a big head. Because with savings so real. You can get your dream sofa for half the price. Wayfair. Its always a big deal. Wayfair, youve got just what i need dad we got our Subaru Forester wilderness to discover all of the places that make us feel something more. vo subaru is the National Park foundations largest corporate donor, helping expand access for all. Did you know 80 of women are struggling with hair damage . Dryness and frizz that keeps coming back, could be damaged hair that cant retain moisture. You need pantenes miracle rescue deep conditioner. Its filled with provitamins to help hair lock in moisture, visibly repairing six months of damage in just one use, with no weighdown. Guaranteed, or your money back. For hair that looks healthy and stays healthy. If you know, you know its pantene. I wanna hold you forever hey little bear bear. Im gonna love you forever to have and to hold from this day forward. You dont. Cmon, bear. You dont have to worry. Be by your side. Ill be there. With my arms wrapped around. Okay everyone, our mission is complete balanced nutrition. Together we provide nutrients to support immune, muscle, bone, and heart health. Yaaay woo hoo ensure with 25 vitamins and minerals and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. Pano ai chooses tmobile for business for 5g solutions. Because tmobile helps pano ai innovate, so they can stop the spread of wildfires. Nows the time to see what americas largest 5g network can do for your business. Long before florida and other State Governments and local School Boards across the country began their crusade to censor black authors, officials tried to silence black voices through artist narratives around their own lived experience. It wasnt just enough to silence them. In some cases, they sought to criminalize it. Now, let me set the scene for you. Its 1988 and the Crockett Potomac is ravaging urban america. Gang culture an inner city violence or both on the rise. A rap group from california named to nwa releases a controversial song, at the police. In that song, the members of nwa liken themselves to prosecutors as they called out the racist brutality of the Los Angeles Police department. Brutality the whole world witnessed less than three years later when lapd officers were caught on camera beating rodney king. They were telling the truth and that, song in doing so, giving voice to countless Black Americans who were experiencing the same things across the country. That song put nwa in the fbis crosshairs. In 1989, a spokesperson for the fbi said the groups record label a letter criticizing the song for, quote, violence against women disrespect for, Law Enforcement officers. The fbi spokesperson said i want you to be aware of the fbis position relative to the song and his message. I believe my views reflect the opinion of the entire Law Enforcement community. At a show in detroit the same year, authorities told nwa specifically not to perform the song. Well, they did it anyway. That shouldnt have been a surprise. What happened immediately afterwards was also predictable. The group says they were chased down by cops and held in a small room for an hour. Hiphop, more specifically, rap music, has always had an uneasy relationship with the law. It is chronicle the block experience, Law Enforcement, and the courts, the countless angles. It is called out the inequalities within those institutions. Whether its nwa or the sound of the police, or even a cause locked up. There is at least one wraps on for each step of the criminal Justice System. From Police Interaction to arrest, to trial, sentencing, of course, incarceration. Bright music has consistently served as a platform to tell the truth about black americas interactions with the criminal Justice System, and ironically, theres been justice consistent in attempt by people in that system to criminalize the music. For decades now, prosecutors have used rappers lyrics, and their community expressions, as evidence in cases against them. This controversial practices built on the assumption that such musicians, these embassies, theyre not real artists. That there is no separation between who they are in real life, and what they may say when they are in a recording booth. Consider this, johnny cash was never locked up for singing i shot a man in reno, well see . Hiphop turns 50 at a time when we are witnessing an all out assault on American Democratic institutions, and, an all out assault on the rights of historically marginalized groups to tell their stories and create their art. The common theme between today censorship of books, and history lessons, and the past mobilization against takeoff, is that what were seeing today it is the latest version of an attempted Suppression Of Black Voices and truth telling. Particularly when those narrative seek to hold america responsible for not living up to its promise to all its people. L it people for Muscle Health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. Boost® high protein. 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Titan turkey. Ninetynine. Grand slam ham. Im gonna need twentythree of those, its my turn to bring the snacks. welcome back with more velshi. Im Charles Coleman junior city and for all evil she today. For the last year and a half, ali has talked to you about this crusade in this country to censor books with content that conservatives do not find appropriate. Long before, that have pop music has its 50th anniversary this weekend, was the subject of several censorship. Oftentimes because the songs that were written told the truth about americas criminal Justice System, and shed light on the negative impacts that it has had on so many black and brown lives. For more on this topic, and to discuss the evolution of hiphop at large, i am so excited to be joined by superstar panel. Including lamar freemen, whos also known as he is a nominated hiphop artist, he has also won half of the legendary rap group, the underground kings. This is pave the way for countless rappers and the south. He is also added to his resume the Sole Proprietor of Trail Burgers and houston, texas. He is chair of the African American and African Studies department at duke university. He teaches a popular course and to call the history of hiphop, and certainly not least, as dr. Amani perry. Professor of African American studies at harvard university. She is an attorney and a legal scholar. Author of the very important book, profits of the hug. Politics and poets and hip up. This came out in 2004. Bun b thank you for being here, along with other gas. I want to start with you. I want to, im excited in this discussion. You came on the scene in the early 90s. A time in which governments, Law Enforcement were frequently trying to censor hiphop artist. Can you talk to our viewers about what it was actually like to be in the game at that time, and what are your thoughts now that you look back at that time with hiphop turning 50. Well thank you for having me on today, charles. And the early 90s, you know, america was a very volatile place. Many communities were being ravaged by the crack epidemic. My community was no different. We tried to vocalize the actual struggle of people in those communitiess on all sides. The use, or the dealer, the community that had nothing to do with either. We wanted to try to vocalize what life was like on an everyday basis when youre in those communities. Somehow a lot of that got construed of set environments. I never understood why the message was always speed shot when trying to talk about environments that they lived in that they had no hand in creating. It always seemed like an over reaction to young black man speaking their truths. I think that still exists to this day. Dr. Perry, to pick up on that point, hiphop is an art form, wrap is the cultural voice of help up. But there is always been this repeated attempt to criminalize rock music and used the lyrics against those who perform them. Your book, profits and poets of the hug, you talk about wall hiphop is not seen as an art form, it becomes deprived of the first kind of First Amendment protection consideration ascribe to an art. Can you talk about what you meant when you thought that . Absolutely. You know, its this is something, and you talked about it, that everything that and mc picks is reflective of some event as opposed to being a creative work. I think its better to understand how pop as actually, as bun b sad, as a reflection of a communitys reality. Also, aspirations. Hiphop is 50 years old, with the social conditions and the creative response that it comes out of it is much older. Police seen as a primary Law Enforcement, a primary force and maintenance of the racial order, the maintenance of jim crow, the domination of black people. Its part of our history. In many ways, much more than protection. Black peoples encounter with Law Enforcement has disproportionately ben as a target of suppression. The creative responses actually a way to respond to the way that we are characterized, the way black people are criminalized. It tells a much richer stories of our communities. It is really important that we, im so what youre doing the segment, because its really important to give truth to the reality that we are often targeted by those who are supposed to be charged with protecting and serving our communities as well. I say it all the time, hiphop is very much so about narrative, a cultural narrative. As i was talking about the song, and up to a song, at the police in the last, block mark, we know that that put the group on the fbis radar back in 89. The bureau said that it was encouraging in advocating for violence against Law Enforcement. Even though it was provocative, and controversial, if you listen to the actual lyrics of what nwa was sane, it was calling out a larger, glaring facet of black american life. That being police brutality. It seems that people were listening but no one actually heard what was being said. What do you make of that . Well i always find amazing, thanks for having me on today, charles. What i always find amazing about that song is that they frame it as a court case. They frame it as the police been under indictment for acts. It doesnt advocate violence. It does not. Its a group of young men sane, this is what we have seen systematically in terms of what the police have done to us. It progresses here. Even in l. A. , you can take a song like tatis battle ram, which is about these machines that the lapd use to bash in the doors of people who they suspected of being drug dealers. When we think about, what we call gangster rap, it really is a narration up the kind of boston by, by a Bus Strategies that the lapd at the time. Folks who are dealing drugs on the street. Not making a distinction between those who engage in the game, and folks who are just hanging out. We know that there is a longer history of the criminalization of black users just been on the corner, if there is more than two or three of them. He popkums out of the tradition of folks simply being on the street, coming together, congregating. That act, in and of itself, before we get a narrative about it, they are criminalized in that context. But an, as an mc, one of the things you do as well as everyone else, you play with the english language. One of the things you know about rap music is everything that is said may not necessarily mean what it does on paper. There are a lot of metaphors, theyre a lot of entendres, theyre a lot of double meanings. As black people, we are oftentimes, we make up words, and we make a new means forwards. You are clearly aware of different instances where Rapturously Riko Content has been used as evidence against them in criminal cases. Given what i just said about the use of language and how creative embassies are with it, how does that make you feel, and as an artist, where do you think the line needs to be drawn . Well i think that the problem is that many People Choose to criticize hip pop and, more specifically, rappers. They dont have the proper cultural entry point to the conversation. So it ends up being a lot of assumptions drawn by the listener, who really dont know how these people are communicating internally. You are basically people from the outside looking in. You dont have a glossary to walk through this terminology. Whatever you hear, or see, you determine it to be problematic off top, right . Thats because you see young black people as problematic off top. We create our, right . Art isnt always has been a reflection of the world we live in. If there was no crime to speak to, and we made the songs, they would fall on deaf ears. The reason they resonate with people is because these are real conditions that many people of color are unfortunately living in, and continue to live in this country. Its sunday and you all a prechain. Dr. Perry, i want to go back to your book and go through another expert here. You are, quote, the artists in an effort to personifying testify, is in some sense trapped by that testimony. Here she becomes a target followed by police and put under scrutiny. To buckle into straight laced respectability under such scrutiny might in fact seem like selling out the testimony. Thats basically what were talking about. Can you talk about that more deeply for us in terms of an artist, particularly rap artist, particularly embassies having a difficult time separating their public persona or their arch, or who they are as embassies that are basically giving voice to narrative from who they are as people. Right. I think that this is part of what becomes complicated. There is pressure, right . To continue to see one as hard, one is real, all of those pressures so that even as an artist becomes incredibly successful, in order to seem, to be seen as legitimate by the court base the fans, there is a lot, on the one hand you have the forces of policing and the surveillance state, on the other hand, you have the expectations of a community, oftentimes people want to test embassies. Are you really, are you really come from where you come from . There is a real constraint that is produced for these artists. I want, a part of what i wanted to point to was that reality. Also, there is the pressure, you know, i quote in brother blue. Wanna society revolves, you become a glorious out. Lock the pressure of that, of carrying out the burden of allowing music that makes people feel as though they can live out their fantasies of transcending circumstances is enormous. So i think its important to acknowledge that reality. Ive got to get into questions in two minutes. Mark, have pop has struggled particularly rap music, for that actual critical acclaim to be accepted by, as an art form, weve seen that change most recently. Can trickle, marfork to, it was awarded a pulitzer for his work with his work dm. There have been other recognitions a pep talk as an art form. Can you speak about what prompted that new level of acceptance . I think there are few things. The biggest thing is simply following the money trail. Once folks understood how lucrative hiphop could be, you know, hiphop in the late 1970s and 80s, you know, it was thought of as almost a kind of vanity project. Its like the surf music of the 19 80s. When folks recognize the economic power that was behind folks who are consuming hiphop, and the money that could be made, it think our feelings but hiphop shifted over that period of time. Its not surprising that in 2023, when we think about rap music, where essentially talking about pop music. We see elements, the five elements, six elements have, as you describe, it of hiphop. This is revealed that almost every aspect of american life, increasingly global life at this point. I could talk about this all day long but unfortunately we are out of time. We have had 50 years of hiphop, and here is to 50 more. Bun b, and imani perry. Thank you. We appreciate your time this morning. That will do it for me. It is truly been a Pleasure Sitting in for my colleague and friend, ali velshi. We want to thank you for tuning in. I want to give a special thanks to all even let me sit in his seat, as well as to his amazing team for making this weekend so fantastic. All we will be back next week. Until then, you can catch every saturday and Sunday Morning 10 am to noon eastern. You can catch me as an msnbc legal analyst right here on your favorite station. My name is Charles Coleman junior. Stay right where you are, inside with jen psaki begins right now. Well its been another wild week. Through all of the indictments, amid so much political division, its easy and understandable to get mired in all of that. Today, were going to do something a little different. Colorado governor, jared a stao find Common Ground and some unlikely places. Hes coming up first. Plus, the last former congressman, tim ryan, about the balance democrats need to strike between making the case against donald trump, and the case for their agenda. Also today, ahead of the sixth anniversary of the inflation reduction act, were going to name some names when it comes to republicans taking credit for something they voted against. Later, a wide range of conversation with gun safety activists. I catch up with him to discuss organizing around the place of gun violence in the start of his next chapter, right here in washington d. C