Transcripts For MSNBCW Inside 20240704

Months, the former president of the United States has been indicted, arrested, and a range. And lets face it, weve become oddly familiar with how this all goes. Theres the release of the indictment itself, helicopters following black suvs, and of course, the court sketches, all followed by a barrage of deranged posts on truth social. Theres a bit of a rinse and repeat feeling that starting to set in. But this one did feel different, because it is different. It felt bigger, because it is bigger. The indictment filed by Special Counsel jack smith this week detailed the ways in which an american president engaged in a criminal conspiracy from the oval office to subvert the will of the people. Of course, like any criminal defendant, trump is innocent until proven guilty. There will be a trial, and his legal team will mount a defense. But no matter how it ends, this is the one that historians will be talking about 100 years from now. Trump is now facing four criminal counts in this case, including Conspiracy To Defraud the United States, obstruction of an official proceeding, and conspiracy against the right of americans to vote and have their vote counted. Now, there will be a lot of political analysis and speculation about what this all means, and the impact it could have on the race in 2024. Im here to tell you that most of those predictions are a little more than wild guesses at this point. And they may bear no resemblance to what were actually seeing in 15 months, when the election rolls around. This is ultimately not about politics, and it should not be talked about only through the political prism. Because it is not about joe biden. It is not about the republican or the democratic party, it is about a coordinated attempt to upend democracy itself by a sitting president. A quote from the indictment, its about a concerted effort to quote, create Intense National atmospheres of mistrust and anger, and erode public faith in the administration of the election. Heres the thing, donald trump hasnt learned a single lesson. It doesnt seem that way it seems. He hasnt changed his behavior at all, and thats probably why the judge is at his arraignment explicitly warned him to his face that it is a crime to influence jurors or thoughts and anyone with information about his case. But just 24 hours after trump was released on bond, he issued this message in all caps on truth social, saying quote, if you go after me, im coming after you. It did not go unnoticed. Just a few hours later, Special Counsel jack smith cited that threatening post in up request for a protective order. Raising concerns that trump is going to publicly share the evidence that they give to his lawyers and use his platforms, his social media platforms, to intimidate witnesses. And that seems like a reasonable concern, unfortunately, especially since trump posted another threatening message late yesterday, attacking former Vice President mike pence. Hes a witness in the case against him. Of course, this is exactly what weve come to expect from trump, who will do everything in his power to make this about politics and cast himself as a martyr. As the victim. He wants a public debate about who was for him and who is against him, and he wants us to talk about his poll numbers and whether this indictment will strengthen or weaken his campaign. What he does not want is a discussion of the facts. The truth is, what trump fears most say is the facts, the facts will prove more stubborn than he is. That he wont be able to spin, control, threaten, or lie his way out of this. That he will lose control. He does not want us to remind you that the people that made this indictment are not joe biden or even merrick garden, maga republicans, quoted throughout the indictment. And he does not want to talk about the trove of Additional Details that jack smith may have. So, thats exactly what were going to do over the course of the next hour. Joining me now is ron klain, President Bidens former Chief Of Staff and my former boss. Its great to see you. Great to be back, thanks. You have more experience in washington and every job there is than almost anyone, and i think part of what we need to address here is whats normal and whats not. And i want to start first with this post, because trump posted, if you go after me, im going to go after you. You are familiar with worrying about security threats, how concerned should we be about those type of posts . Well, i think, as you discussed, this is an effort by the former president to try to intimidate witnesses that might testify. And as you noted, the witnesses in this case or not democrats, they arent trump haters, they are people who are some of his closest advisers. His loyal Vice President , mike pence, who is likely going to be a witness in this case. So hes trying to intimidate people who know the truth, he doesnt want them to tell the truth, is that normal . No, its not normal. Its possibly also criminal. When you are reading this, because i havent had a chance to ask you or talk to you about this, youre the incoming Chief Of Staff when this all happened. You were preparing to lead during covid, during a really hard time in our country. What did you think when you read this . I thought, how close it came to succeeding. The indictment is a damning indictment of what donald trump tried to do to keep the American People from having that will in the election. Trying to overturn the results, trying to interfere, obstruct with the lawful process in the transfer of power. I think its hard to read it and not think how close it came to all working. And that, i think, is the scariest thing of all of this. The other question ive never asked you about is during the transition, i was a spokesperson on the transition, you with the incoming Chief Of Staff. I remember being worried the night before january 6th that that will delay tactics being used on the floor. But not about the level of violence or the level of security threats. And what were you worried about at the time . Same thing i was worried about, efforts to just lay and postpone. The Vice President pence wasnt going to show up, i wonder what that element, was that going to be turned out to be true . And i will say there were Times On January 6th where i was fearful that donald trump would not leave the office, and joe biden would never be sworn in as president , because they would not be able to resume the electoral votes. Trumps former Chief Of Staff, mark meadows, is not mentioned in the indictment. Theres speculation hes cooperating. You, of course, dont have any information on that. But you did hold the same job, and what struck me is just the Chief Of Staff has so much access to the president , so much information. What kind of information or accessed you have as Chief Of Staff to the president . People that are trying to understand this. We have a lot of access to a lot of information, and were supposed to use it for lawful purposes. And the question here is, there was a conspiracy that developed in the white house, a conspiracy to not let the world of voters be the outcome of the election. A conspiracy to stop the lawful process, the transition of power. And the question is, who was involved in that conspiracy . As a Chief Of Staff, your job is to find conspiracies going on and stop it, and keep it away from the president. And instead it appears that the president himself propagated this conspiracy. As i said, nearly succeeded in it. One of the things that was also striking, but even more so, is trump basically went around the typical legal advisers. The acting Attorney General, the white House Counsel, mike pence described the team of lawyers he went to as a crock pot lawyer, to quote mike pence. How abnormal is that for a president to go outside of the Attorney General, the white House Counsel, and others . I think it gives crack pots a bad name. What happened here was ridiculous, and an effort to break the law. Bill barr was Donald Trumps handpicked Attorney General, he put him as his Attorney General when he forced out Attorney General sessions, and then bill barr was the Attorney General, bill barr told him there is no basis for this. Barr resigned, and then he put in acting Attorney General, that person told him that the Justice Department has no role here. You have to have a legal challenge to it, the legal challenge failed because there was no basis for it, and then trump just ignored the legal advice he was getting from his normal legal advisers. The white House Counsel, the councils were excluded from meetings. They brought in these people that were part of his conspiracy to try to overturn the results of the election. And thats what went on the white house. Theres nothing like this that had been seen before. The other thing that struck me, and what we certainly dont know, we werent in there, although we were on the transition. But president pence claimed he didnt know about the electors plot. He was the Chief Of Staff to Vice President and president , i dont buy that. But im interested in what your gut instinct was that. Its hard to know what they did or didnt tell mike prints. Theyre clearly trying to pressure him to do something that he had no Legal Authority do, which was to stop the Electoral College and to overturn the fake electoral votes. Thats something that no Vice President has ever done before because theres no legal basis to do it. And others also rejected this possibility, al gore in 2000 had to preside over the Electoral College tabulation that resulted in him not being elected president. So the Vice President is common, they were pressuring pence not to do his legal duty but they didnt tell him, we dont know. One of the big debates of their is whether they should be cameras in the courtroom. There is an argument for that for transparency purposes, youre also when the president was coming and was trying to settle the country. What do you think about the idea of cameras in the courtroom . Are you for it . I would be fort in this case. First of all, i generally favor cameras in the courtroom but i do think the judicial process should be more transparent. And so i think we have cameras obviously in the congress proceedings, and we should have cameras in the courtroom general. Specifically here, given the crimes that are alleged, which is an effort to essentially overturn the government, the public has the right to see this trial and the public conference in the outcome of the trial is going to be critical. Im gonna ask you to put your chairman hat on for a second, because i understand that chief Justice Roberts would have to decide that cameras could be in the courtroom. Is there anything that the senate can do or the Judiciary Committee can do to compel that to be the case . I suppose that congress could pass a law requiring amaras, requiring that all proceedings should be televised. I dont think thats going to happen. The chief justice, i understand that competing considerations here. I think this is a special case and i think there should be televised access to the case. Youve known the president for so long, and he came in at such a difficult moment in history. Part of the impact of trump questioning the outcome is that an overwhelming majority of Republican Voters still to this day it dont believe that President Biden was legitimately elected. Despite court cases and everything. How do you think do you think he bears the scars of that . I dont think he bears the scars of that. Look, the job of the President Biden has done in these two years, hes worked with republicans, hes working with Mitch Mcconnell to get things done. Hes worked with Kevin Mccarthy to get the Debt Limit Situation navigated this year. Hes passed Bipartisan Legislation, bipartisan infrastructure bills, Bipartisan Legislation to help our veterans, control legislation, so hes been or as much as theyve been willing to work with him, hes gone the extra mile. And so i think hes done everything he can to be a president for all americans. I have one more thing. Look at these bills he passed, these Major Investments in clean energy and infrastructure. All of our studies show that most of the money those republican states and massive job creation. Someone is taking credit for it. Someone is taking credit for it and voted against it. But hes the president for all americans, trying to make this country better in every one of the 50 states. And i think thats what joe biden is. What he was elected to do, its what he has been doing as president. I think people can now see why i could just go talk to you for ten minutes before a briefing and know all the things i needed to know. Thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. Thanks for having me. Coming up, you do not have to be a lawyer, and im not, to understand how it ridiculous some of the legal defenses in this case really are. Were going to go through some of their favorite arguments one by one. Plus, did the trump allies who are calling this whole thing a political witch hunt know how much of the evidence of that and later, a look back at the work of the january Six Committee and a look ahead to this trial with congressman were just Getting Started today, well be right back. Ell be right back your Car Insurance. So you only pay for what you need. Thats my boy. Stay off the freeways only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Choosing a treatment for your chronic migraine only pay for what you need. 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more can be overwhelming. So, ask your doctor about botox®. Botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. Its the 1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. So far, more than 5 million botox® treatments have been given to over Eight Hundred And Fifty Thousand chronic migraine patients. 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Stick with me here, were going to go through these one by one. Lets start with the first amendments offense. It has become a favorite for trump. His lawyers and all of his allies in congress. This is an attack on free speech. Theyre trying to criminalize exercising the first amendment. Youre entitled to question whether it was honest or not. Thats the uniqueness of the first amendment. Thats the uniqueness of america. But you know what, you shouldnt be prosecuted for your thoughts. This is a free speech killing indictment. Killing free speech, thats what it is. The argument as you just heard goes Something Like this. Under the first amendment, trump has the right to openly spout his election conspiracy theories. And on one level, the right. He is well within his rights to say that he won the election, even though he didnt. The Special Counsel actually went out of their way to point that out in the indictment. They also pointed out that trump heads lawsuits and called for audits and recounts, all of which he did. None of which succeeded. Dozens of them. But heres the problem. According to the indictment, trump and others worked together with the goal of pressuring officials to overturn a free and fair election. Thats not actually free speech. Thats a conspiracy. So, think of this hypothetical, it would actually help you a lot. If he were to say to his accountant, i pay too much in taxes and i wish i didnt have to. Even if thats not true, he can say that. Thats free speech. But if he were to say to his accountant, i paid too much in taxes and which i didnt have to, so dont send him what i owe, that speech, but its also a crime. Then there is the second piece of trumps defense. Blame the lawyers, all of the lawyers, and he had many of them. As former fbi counsel and our next guest put it, the argument is basically, quote, what was he to do . A lawyer told him that he could overthrow the government, so we cant be guilty of trying to overthrow the government. That sounds absurd, right . The other problem here was that he was surrounded by lots of lawyers advising him not to pursue these legal avenues. His top Law Enforcement official, the acting Attorney General, told him the Justice Department could not and would not change the outcome of the election. His Deputy White House counsel told him quote, there is no world, there is no option in which you do not leave the white house. According to the indictment, trump purposefully left his white House Counsel out of a meeting where he pressured mike pence to reject the biden electors. You heard how that because the white House Counsel had pushback on trumps false claims of election fraud. Donald trump wasnt led astray by his lawyers, he ignored them and instead went lawyer shopping. He went out of his way to find and empower people willing to make the argument that he wanted to make. Even when others plainly pointed out how outrageous his plans were. Finally, and perhaps the most absurd argument, trump was simply ignorant. He just didnt know any better. That no matter how delusional he truly believed that there were rampant there was rampant fraud in the 2020 election, and that he actually won. But there are more than a couple cracks in the foundation of that one. Just this week, one of Donald Trumps lawyers are very plainly said that everyone around him knew he lost. There is testimony and theres a number of aids that have said that the president was made aware that he lost the election, and yet continued to argue that it was stolen from him. How do you reconcile those two things . I think that everybody was made aware that he lost the election, but that doesnt mean that that was the only advice that he was given. Hard to square everybody knowing trump lost, and he just not knowing. There are also several documented instances where he admitted he lost. During a National Security briefing after the election, he told advisers, were going to give that to the next guy. Alyssa farah testified to the january Six Committee that while watching joe biden on tv, trump once said, quote, can you believe i lost to the sky . So just to recap, trump really cant claim free speech here, cant really blame bad warriors, all of whom are coconspirators anyway, and he cant really claim ignorance because thats not exactly believable. So it was such a weak legal defense, watch what trump and his allies will do now. Its a predictable and unfortunately familiar playbook. Delay, confuse, make a lot of noise. Trumps lawyers apparently are running a media blitz rather than handling their client. Just this morning, he threw some of those same defenses at five sunday morning shows. The defenders were already attacking the judge and lining up to say that its somehow impossible for the legal system to work correctly in washington d. C. Though use this confusion and noise to delay the trial as long as they can. Because the longer it goes on, the closer he comes to trying to get back into office. Because of the real goal for him is to get elected, and shut this case down. Up next, ive got two of our best legal experts, Andrew Weissmann and to try to help make sense of Donald Trumps extremely flawed defense. Plus, why prosecutors are now asking the judge overseeing the case to step in after trumps threatening post on social media. Were back after a quick break. Ck break dad we got our Subaru Forester wilderness to discover all of the places that make us feel something more. vo subaru is the National Park foundations largest corporate donor, helping expand access for all. My most important kitchen tool . My brain. So i choose neuriva plus. 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Real mature. Weve seen a surprising amount of action this weekend, between the Special Counsels office, Donald Trumps legal team, and the Presiding Judge in the election interference case. On friday, jack smiths team fall whats known as a protective order. Theyre essentially asking the judge to bar trump from publicly disclosing some of the evidence gathered during the investigation. That type of request is not uncommon, a protective order was issued in both of the other cases where trump has been indicted. But what is uncommon is what the Special Counsels team had to cite in their filing. It is concerning poke from donald trump, and they write, quote, regarding this case, the defendant has issued multiple posts, either specifically or by implication, including the following which the defendant posted just hours ago. If the defendant were to begin issuing public posts during obtained in discovery here, it could have a harmful, Chilling Effect on witnesses or a firstly affect the Fair Administration of justice in this case. The judge gave trumps team until five pm tomorrow to follow response. Trumps lawyers that made a request for more time, which the judge quickly denied. Clearly, we have a lot to discuss. And luckily i have my own law from here to help me work through all of it. Neil is the former acting u. S. Solicitor general, Andrew Weissmann is the former fbi general counsel. The unofficial law firm of you guys, a lot she work it out, joins me now. I want to start with you and i almost wanted to the goal of the protective order is to stop trump from sharing evidence, but what about the social media posts that they may not share evidence, but they are still threatening. So what can the judge actually do . Especially that mike pence one, which reads like a clear threat. What can the judge do to stop that . So, jen, its worth noting that on thursday at the arraignment, donald trump under oath swore that he would not retaliate against, or threaten any potential witness. And then the next day, that post and others with respect to mike pence were issued. So what can the judge do . While the judge can start by bringing the parties in and giving a sort of certain lecture, and this is an admission that you have one more chance. The other thing the judge can do, because remember, donald trump is out on bail, so he is not free to say anything that anyone else would. Is there can be restrictions on what he did, and what he can do. This did happen with roger stone in this very same courthouse, when he posted a photo of the District Judge with crosshairs over her shoulder. And that led to severe restrictions on what he could post. Just to be clear, any other defendant who did this he was facing six counts of obstruction of justice, for in d. C. , two in florida, i think would be remanded. Meaning, would be sent to jail, would have to await trial in jail. So, neil, one of the things weve been watching this week, its interesting for even us now, is that the trump team asked for a delay to respond to this protective order, and the judge shut it down really quickly. It all seems very rapid. What have you made of that and what does that tell us about what we should look ahead to in the weeks ahead . So first, jen, i just want to thank you for the way you started the show talking about how this trial was something people are going to read about in 100 years. The reason for that is not because of this trial its really because this trial goes to the essence of what our legal system is about. Trumps lawyers on tv today saying this is just a technical violation of the constitution and stuff like that. Au contraire, this i a serious this is about a president , the ex president who tried to stop, try to launch a coup and stop the counting of an election. So i think this is what judge chutkan and the timing of this case and what hes been doing over the weekend. I think she is this is her reputation, shes a no nonsense judge, she is not going to accept trumps decision to try to delay the trial, which is his kind of Standard Tactic in case after case, this thing looks like it is heading toward a fast and speedy trial, as it should be, given the gravity of the charges. When trump goes and uses social media to do what he is doing, after being warned by the judge, i think that is all the more reason why this trial has to occur quickly. Andrew, you mentioned we heard a new defense from Donald Trumps lawyer this morning on Meet The Press and other networks as well. Lets listen to what he said about trumps Pressure Campaign on mike pence and talk about it on the other side. For Vice President pence is an attorney. If yet any points that are thought that mr. Trump, President Trump was acting unlawfully or contrary to criminal law, he wouldve said that. No one ever suggested that. President trump actually, he has said that. By the way, there is another the president asked him to violate the constitution. He said the president asked him to violate the constitution. Which is another way of saying he had to break the law. No, thats wrong. Thats wrong. A technical violation of the constitution is not a violation of criminal law. I, mean that sounded to me like a new argument, or a new one there. Andrew, what did you make of that . Well, to go to neils point, a technical violation of the constitution, which is overthrowing the democratic process by which we elect a president , that is neither technical nor is it legal. This is i understand that this is Defense Detour and they try to throw things added to see what might stick with the public. That one is Beyond The Pale and it shouldnt be normalized. It absolutely is absurd. And again, he will have his day in court, he will be able to float all of these not in the court of Public Opinion but before a judge chutkan. It is clear it will be rejected. But he will have his day in court, like every defendant, to raise all of these. But this is not a serious argument legally. Neil, youve really been leading the charge on cameras in the courtroom. Youve written about, it talked about it before most people were talking about, it saying it is absolutely necessary. Do you think we will get them . I do. And the reason is this is, as you are saying, the most important trial that americas ever had. This is occurring in our courtrooms that we pay for with our taxpayer dollars. It is to me, unthinkable that the American Public cant see this momentous trial. Thats particularly so because trump is a Master At Disinformation and spewing lies. If we cant see the trial for ourselves, and that disinformation will persist and increase. As one of our greatest justices said, sunlight is the best disinfectant. This trial is in the name of the people of the United States. We are after all the victims of it, as andrew just said very poignantly. This is about overthrowing our democracy, our votes. We should all be able to see this trial. The idea that a handful of people from the public would be allowed in and we could call that a public trial is just, i mean, to me, unthinkable. Andrew, i know you are not in the business of representing trump or getting in his mind, but looking at all of these charges, its hard to imagine that they arent discussing the possibility of a plea deal or a plea agreement. Do you think his lawyers are discussing that with him . What is typically happening at this phase, if you are looking at this level of legal threat . Well, a good Defense Lawyer has to have that conversation with their client, to advise them about their legal threat. Their arguments on the law and what they think whether they think they will fly or not. And also what they factually think will happen. In the three criminal cases he is facing currently, perhaps, soon to be for. That being said it is ultimately the clients decision based on that advice. I think that here it is clear that donald trump is going to try to spin in sort of the public. Because of the things hes been saying so far are just not anything that goes to a factual defense or a legal defense. In any of these cases. So i just dont see and that this is going to be really an issue where we are thinking about this in terms of the trials, and more that Donald Trumps thinking, if i can get to the presidency or get an ally into the white house, i can at least make a federal case go away. We are looking ahead to a potential fourth indictment. Neil, i will start with you. Do you think we will get a georgia indictment this week . Are you bracing for that . A indictment this week are you brac ing for that to, me i think we will. I think thats what all the indications are. There are Security Barriers going up in fulton county. I think we will see a fourth indictment. Andrew, you as well . What is your thought . This week . You, know if it is not this, week it will be next. Week everything has been clear. All the legal issues that couldve held this up, we heard from fani willis that she said shes ready to go. So, you know, in the situation, i know she said it would be imminent in january. But right now it really is imminent and there will be a set of charges. Its important for people to know those charges will stick regardless of who is in the white house. Because a federal pardon does not affect state charges. Neil, Andrew Weissmann, thank you both for spending hours explaining all of this to all of us on television. Really appreciate both your time this afternoon. Coming, up no matter how much donald trump tries to spin this indictment as a criminal democratic witch hunt, he somehow hasnt figured out the calls coming from inside the house. Still ahead, someone who knows the details of what led up the january six better than anyone. Congressman raskin joins me to talk about jack smiths case against trump. T trump. Richard, louis here is what is happening this. Ours officials in juneau, alaska assessing damage after homes were destroyed this weekend from the glacier dam break. The alaskan capital, residents being told to avoid that area. Until floodwaters recede. The u. S. Womens National Team out of the world cup. They lost to sweden on Penalty Kicks in the round of 16. The worst finish for the fourtime champions in the tournaments history. More inside with jen psaki right after a short break. After a short break. 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Shingles doesnt care but, shingrix protects. Shingrix is now zero dollars for almost everyone. Ask your doctor about shingrix today. I know this will come as an enormous shock, but donald trump and his allies have been spinning his third indictment as a political witch hunt concocted by democrats. Take a listen to some of the completely unhinged reaction from the rightwing media ecosystem. From what i see now, they seem totally beat. You should be prosecuted for your thoughts and the difference here is when Hillary Clinton said it Nothing Happened to her. This indictment reads Like A Fever Dream Written By adam schiff and dan goldman. The nonsense that came out of his mouth in that Press Conferences the same stuff weve been hearing. He is like adam schiff with a beard. The whole reason why biden has to arrest his top political opponent is not because President Trump is guilty of any crimes. Its because biden cant beat trump. But going through this 45page indictment, you will not find joe biden or Hillary Clinton or adam schiff named as a source of any information in this case. Instead, its the testimony of lifelong republicans. We prominent maga loyalists that form the core of the governments case against donald. Trump like trumps Vice President , mike pence. Trumps director of national intelligence, john ratcliffe. Trumps Cybersecurity Chief Attorney General bill barr, trumps Attorney General that replaced bill barr after the election, jeffrey rosen. Trumps acting Deputy Attorney general, richard donahue. And his former white house Chief Of Staff mark meadows. There sure are a lot of republicans included in this democratic witch hunt against donald trump. When it comes to stopping trumps over attempts to overthrow our democracy, it was not democrats but republicans who actually stepped in and stopped. And they were doing their jobs, like rusty bowers, the former Arizona House speaker who refused to go along with Rudy Giuliani scheme to go around the Arizona State legislature and replace illegitimate electors with fake ones. A conservative republican, i dont like the results of the president ial election, i voted for President Trump and worked hard to reelect him. But i cannot and will not entertain a suggestion that we violate current law to change the outcome of a certified election. Republicans like brad raffensperger, the georgia secretary of state pushed back against trumps request to find votes and explains about 5000 people voted in georgia. Raffenspergers response, well, mister president , the challenge you, have the data you have, is wrong. The actual number were to. Two people that were dead that voted. Thats a quote from him. Then there was the michigan House Speaker that said, quote, we diligently i fought hard for President Trump and nobody wanted him to win more that be. I think hes done an incredible job. I love our republic too. When trump and his people cry witch hunt and scream about Hillary Clinton, joe biden, and adam schiff on a, not an awkward thing for trump is that none of these prominent democrats are in the indictment that. People responsible for his current legal challenges are republicans who supported him, who voted for him, and may still believe in his policies. They drew the line at his actions. Those are the leaders of the supposed partisan witch hunt against him. Outside the Special Counsels office, nobody knows the ins and outs of the case better than congressman jamie raskin. He joins me when we come back. E when we come back. All learning to save and spend their money with chase. The chefs cooking up firsts with her new debit card. Hungry . Uhuh. The designers eyeing sequins. 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Im a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. Frustrated by skin tags . Dr. Scholls has the breakthrough youve been waiting for. The first fdacleared athome skin tag remover clinically proven to remove skin tags safely in as little as one treatment. Its fair to say that in addition to informing and educating the problem, public, the house january Six Committee uncovered a lot of what we saw this latest indictment of donald trump. There was one big charge of the committee referred to doj, that jacks mitt ultimately decided not to bring in the latest indictment. He charged for inciting an insurrection. Joining me now is congressman jamie raskin who served on the house january Six Committee. Im so grateful to be chatting with you this afternoon. I thought it was so interesting what you said where you said that jack smith was smart of him not to include an ex insurrection, charging though the Committee Recommended that. Tell me a little bit more about why you think it was so smart. I think it was a tactical move because that statute has rarely been used in more than a century. Until donald trump, we never had anybody, much less a president of the United States try to incite a violent insurrection and give aid and comfort to in insurrectionist. As donald trump has done. We thought there was overwhelming evidence of that. You, know he called them great heroes, said dont forget this day, continued to praise them, was talking about pardoning all of them including people who have violently assaulted Police Officers are pled guilty to seditious conspiracy, which means conspiracy to overthrow the government. So i figured he probably wanted to avoid a big debate about Freedom Of Speech and whether trump was just engaged in speech when it came to egging on the insurrectionists. Everything else hes pled, donald trump was integrally involved in the action of conspiring to defraud the American Public by promoting the counterfeits lights of electors, conspiring to interfere with the federal proceeding on january the 6th, the joint Session Of Congress to count the electors. Then fundamentally, a conspiracy to violate everybodys civil rights by stealing the election away from the legitimate Electoral Process and under the constitution and the electoral count act of 1987 and substituting instead this Counterfeit Process that he cooked up with john eastman and the other people involved in the conspiracy. My bet is trumps recent post arent a surprise you. They werent necessarily surprised me either. In the days since the arraignment, hes put out a number of threatening tweets. I mean, he tweeted a veiled threat that mike pence was likely to be a key witness. He tweeted out threats that could be targeted at any range of people in the Justice Department in the government. Should there be any sort of gag order imposed . Here what do you think should be done . The judge definitely has to look very carefully at that and to what extent trump will be obstructing justice or interfering with honest Witness Testimony and so on with all of the threats and intimidation which are obviously par for the course with donald trump. But what it shows us, jen, is that this conspiracy continues. They are now going back to the argument that trump won the election, that he did not believe that he lost the election, although there was lots of evidence that we found during the january Six Committee proceedings that he understood he was saying to people, can you believe i lost to this guy . There were lots of indications he knew he lost, including 60 federal and state Court Decisions rejecting every claim of Electoral Fraud and corruption. But basically, theyve doubled down on it and are basically saying they would do this again. In other words, donald trump didnt do anything wrong. They are giving us a preview of what they might do in 2024 if the 7 million vote margin that joe biden beat him by becomes a 10 million vote margin, 12 million. They will just pretend again that they won the election and engage in the same insurrectionary tactics against our constitutional order. Such an important thing to remember, this is not over and hes not exactly muted at this point. There are few people who know as much as you do about all the details here, and mike pence, while it is clear he not only corroborated, he gave his, notes he spoken about this publicly, he also said this week that he didnt know anything about the efforts to secure fake electors and only learned about it after the fact, which to put my cards on the table i found that hard to buy. What was your thought when you heard him say that . Ill be interested to see what the evidence shows in court about it. They certainly took great pains to keep the whole thing secret. Its obviously cuts completely against the Freedom Of Speech that they were just engaging in speech. They were acting like conspirators. The whole Electoral College process it is meticulously defined in federal and state law and electoral count act and every state has its own procedures for doing it. There is no doubt that they will just counter counterfeiting the Electoral Process. The idea that is protected by the first amendment, that is absurd. Theres people in jail today because they counterfeited one vote, one ballot. If you go in and you pretend you are an elector, you are a voter and you are not that voter or you fill out a Registration Form with a phony name or addressing your vote that, you will go to prison for years. They try to do that to the entire election. They tried to counterfeit not one ballot, but the entire election, stealing away the victory that joe biden had won 306 to 232 in the Electoral College. The idea that that is Freedom Of Speech is preposterous. We only have a minute left, but i did want to ask you, you lived this, you are in the capital, youve done so much work on this. There could be a discussion of a plea deal. We dont know at this point where itll head. Would you be able to stomach a deal that doesnt include prison time . Well, look, again, from the beginning, jen, ive said all of that is within the province of the prosecutors. One of the bad habits weve gotten into during the trump era is politicians second guessing what goes on with prosecutors and trying to micromanage them, second guess the rule of law. I just want to see that justice is done and lets let the wheels of justice turn as they will. The main thing is that the people understand the truth and that we defend Democratic Institutions and our Electoral Process. If somebody doesnt like the Electoral College, great, lets replace it with a National Popular vote. We can do it. Meantime, everybodys gotta respect the rules as they are and not try to assist to some phony Counterfeit Process and leverage the violence in the streets in order to course the Vice President to follow their will. Congressman jamie raskin, when the History Books are written, you will definitely get a lot of credit for speaking truth and defending democracy. Thank you so much for being with me this afternoon. We are coming right back after a quick break. Stay with us. Stay with us unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. To help keep me sharp. Neuriva think bigger. When i was diagnosed with hiv, i didnt know who i would be. But here i am. Being me. Keep being you. 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Be sure to follow the show on twitter, tiktok, and instagram. A reminder that you can listen to every episode of the shows podcast for free. Search for inside with jen psaki wherever you get your podcasts. Well be back here next sunday at noon eastern. Stay right where you are because there is much more news ahead on nbc msnbc. Ahead on nbc msnbc. Tonight on the mehdi hasan show, and debunking the trump defense, the ex president s legal team is straw manning, what about, and straightup lying in response to the third indictment. Then, the other coconspirators, they might not be on jack smiths naughty list, but we are calling out trumps republican enablers in congress. And the sad circus. How the gop chairman of the House Committee chasing after hunter biden was kind of humiliated by his own star witness