Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240704

Television and any fact pleaded donald trump guilty to the charge of attempting to obstruct an official proceeding and conspiracy to defraud the United States. Everyone except donald trump no is that criminal defendants should not speak publicly about their cases. The same is almost always true for Criminal Defense Lawyers. The most common response from Criminal Defense Lawyers to requests for interviews about their pending cases is one word, no. Most successful Criminal Defense Lawyers never grant Television Interviews, never. Too many of Donald Trumps lawyers are too eager to talk on trump supporting television about their client. And so tonight trump Criminal Defense Lawyer john lauro, in his first interview after donald trump pleaded not guilty to conspiring to trying to get Vice President mike pence to break the law, Donald Trumps Criminal Defense Lawyer actually said this. Professor eastman laid out a series of options that we were discussed with Vice President pence. Vice president pence disagreed on certain issues but ultimately what President Trump said is, lets go with option d, lets just halt, lets just pause the voting allow the State Legislatures to take one last look and make a determination as to whether or not the elections were handled fairly. Oh, i only wish the control room had caught Andrew Weissmanns eyes widening at what he just heard here. That is a trump Criminal Defense Lawyer quoting donald trump committing a crime. Donald trumps Criminal Defense Lawyer tonight added information to special prosecutor jack smiths 42page description of Donald Trumps crimes. The conversation that John Lauro First described appear on pace 34 of the indictment as a criminal conspiracy. And the version of that conversation that donald trump s Criminal Defense Lawyer delivery tonight is every bit as criminal as the version that appears in the indictment. On page 34 of the indictment it says, On January 4th, the defendant, donald trump, held a meeting with Coconspirator John Eastman. Vice president , the Vice President s Chief Of Staff, and the Vice President s counsel for the purpose of convincing the Vice President , based on the defendant, Donald Trumps knowingly false claims of election fraud, that the Vice President should reject or send to the states bidens legitimate electoral votes rather than count them. That criminal conduct described in that sentence was admitted tonight On Television by Donald Trumps Criminal Defense Lawyer. The indictment has more about that meeting. Quote, during the meeting, as reflected in the Vice President s contemporaneous notes, the defendant, donald trump, made knowingly false claims of election fraud, including, bottom, line one every state by hundreds of thousands of votes and, we won every state. The defendant, donald trump, and Coconspirator John Eastman then asked the Vice President to either unilaterally reject the legitimate electors from the seven targeted states or send the question of which state was legitimate, which slate was legitimate, to the targeted states legislatures. In a shockingly incompetent slip, to put it mildly, On Television tonight, Donald Trumps Criminal Defense Lawyer actually admitted to that accusation in the indictment. Donald trumps lawyer, you just heard him Donald Trumps lawyer said tonight On Television, what President Trump said is, lets go with option b. D. Lets just halt. Lets just pause the voting and allow the State Legislatures to take one last look and make a determination as to whether or not the elections are handled fairly. That is essentially what jack smith is accusing donald trump of having said. The indictment says that when Vice President mike pence challenged john eastman on the legality of that idea in that meeting, quote, Coconspirator John Eastman responded, well nobodys tested it before. The Vice President and told the defendant, donald trump, did you hear that . Even your own counsel is not saying i have that authority. The defendant, donald trump, responded, thats okay. I prefer the other suggestion, of the Vice President rejecting the electors unilaterally. Donald trumps Criminal Defense Lawyer tonight On Television in effect admitted that the indictment is an accurate description of that meeting. Professor eastman laid out a series of options that were discussed with Vice President pence. Vice president pence disagreed on certain issues. But ultimately what President Trump said is, lets go with option d. Lets just halt, lets just pause the voting and allow the State Legislatures to take one last look and make a determination as to whether or not the elections were handled fairly. Wow. John eastman knew that it would be a crime to do that. And john eastman said in writing that it would be a crime to do that. What donald trump was asking mike pence to do and what Donald Trumps Criminal Defense Lawyer tonight admits admits On Television, that donald trump was asking mike pence to do. The pause that Donald Trumps Criminal Defense Lawyer says donald trump was asking for was a crime and it was the very last crime that donald trump and his coconspirators asked Vice President to commit. They asked him to commit the crime many times. But the very last time donald trump and his coconspirators asked mike pence to commit that crime was not before mike pence went to the capitol on january six to preside over Electoral College vote count ceremony. It was at 11 44 pm on january 6th, after the trump mob attacked the capitol, attacked Police Officers, said they wanted to kill mike pence, so they wanted to kill nancy pelosi. After the was capitol under attack for hours on end with donald trump Doing Nothing to stop it, hours after the trump criminal mob was driven out of the Capitol Building and in the middle of a congresss continuation of the official process of counting the electoral votes, at 11 44 pm, john eastman put his latest criminal proposal in writing and admitted in writing at the time that it was a crime. Page 42 of the indictment says at 11 44 pm, coconspirator to two john eastman email deVice President s counsel advocating that the Vice President violate the law and seek further delay of the certification. John eastman wrote, i implore you to consider one more relatively minor violation of the electoral count act and adjourn for ten days to allow the legislatures to finish their investigations. John eastman, in that email, called the crime that he was urging the Vice President to commit, a relatively minor crime. A relatively minor violation of law. There he is, in writing, admitting that its a violation of law and tonight Donald Trumps Criminal Defense Lawyer said, On Television that donald trump urged mike pence to commit that violation of law. What President Trump said is, lets go with option d, lets just halt, lets just pause the voting and allow the State Legislatures to take one last look and make a determination as to whether or not the elections were handled fairly. We have invited on Donald Trumps criminal fence lawyer lawyer, john lauro to join us on the program tonight, and in any point in the future to discuss the crime that he admitted tonight, that his client melted and then any other aspect of the case that he may still be reckless enough to talk about On Television. Some Criminal Defense Lawyers have significant experience talking On Television. John lauro was not one of them. He began his National Television exposure this week. After his client was indicted. He offered easily dismissed lame defenses of donald trump saying that donald trump had a First Amendment right to advocate committing crimes and that, when donald trump was saying those things, he was saying them on the advice of his, lawyer john eastman another easily dismissable defense, eastman being a coconspirator sir but it sounded like the only thing that john lauro could say if he was going to do Television Interviews the Wisest Course for john lauro was to say nothing today on the single most important day of his life as a lawyer. As he stood next to a former president of the United States being arraigned for federal crimes in washington, d. C. , in the full throes of the excitement of the day, john lauro decided to do one more tv interview. And in that interview with a Friendly Network he made the single biggest public mistake a Criminal Defense Lawyer can possibly make. He offered a quoted version of his client speaking in a conversation already labeled criminal in the indictment that his client was facing, and he thought that he was clever enough to Quote Donald Trump saying something that was going to get donald trump off the hook. And instead john lauro hooked donald trump in the same way that jack smiths indictment does. I have never seen a moment like this, with a Criminal Defense Lawyer. Never. It is inconceivable that john lauro could get this far into this case and somehow believe what john eastman says in writing, that he never believed, john eastman says he never believed it, that it was legal for mike pence to pause the counting of electoral votes. John lauro had a completely competent and professional first day in court with donald trump. I have read the transcript of it. He was flawless in the courtroom. And then he went on tv. And blew the case. John lauro, remember, is many thousands of times brighter than donald trump. But he still not smart enough to answer a Fox Performers easy questions about on trump. So manage a donald trump trying to answer questions in his own defense, on a Witness Stand, under oath, be being crossexamined by jack smiths criminal trial team. John lauro trying to make sense of what donald trump was saying to mike pence could not get through a fox tv conversation about it without further incriminating donald trump. Donald trump would do much worse than john lauro, answering questions under oath about what he said to mike pence. Donald trump weighs under oath today for the first and probably the last time in this case. Deputy clerk, mr. Trump, please stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that you will well and truly answer all questions propounded to you, so help you god . The defendant, i do. Donald trump survived his under oath questioning today because he wasnt asked much more than his name at his age. On that second question his age, he gave an odd answer. The court, mr. Trump, how old are you . The defendant, 77. Apparently don trump is uncomfortable with his age, so uncomfortable that he doesnt like to say 77. Imagine for just a moment, if joe biden ever answered the question of, how old are you, the way donald trump did today, the network where John Lauro Which trying to defend donald trump would Accused Biden of being mentally capable of serving as president. If he ever answered the question, how old are you . The way donald trump did, under oath, in that courtroom today we have a lot of legal ground to cover tonight, especially with this Breaking News and our team of lawyers is here, including one who was in the courthouse in washington today, leading off our discussion tonight is Andrew Weissmann, former fbi General Counsel and former chief of the Criminal Division in the Eastern District of new york. Hes a professor in practice at nyu law school. Also glenn kirschner, former federal prosecutor who was at the courthouse today. They are both msnbc legal analysts. Glenn kirschner, let me start with you, as our eyes and ears to everything that happened in that room. And i read the transcript and i have to say, john lauro delivered what i read to be the single best performance by a trump lawyer in a courtroom yet. No wiseguy comments about the prosecutions. No nasty, sleazy remarks or slights here and there, just professional all the way through. And then yeah he goes on fox and throws the case away. But take us into the courtroom. Yeah, lawrence, its not that hard to be professional during an arraignment because generally nothing earth shattering happens. But i agree all parties performed well. But what i really enjoyed about watching, even though i was in the overflow courtroom, who is that the specter of judge Tanya Chutkan hung over that proceeding. The proceeding was conducted by a Magistrate Judge. Which is not unusual Magistrate Judges often handle the relatively straightforward, low level, preliminary matters like an arraignment. But boy, when the Magistrate Judge said the prosecution will file a brief in seven days with their proposed trial date, and how long they believe their case in chief will last, and the defense will file up reply seven days thereafter with their proposed trial date. Thats when john lauro got a bit excited, because not once, not twice but three times he tried to argue, judge, judge, we cant possibly give you a proposed trial date because we dont know how much discovery the prosecution is going to deliver to us, but when the Magistrate Judge followed up with a pretty stern response, she said, you will file a proposed trial date, and then there will be a hearing 25 days from now. August 28th, at which time judge chutkan will set a trial date. That is unusual. Its not surprising knowing the judge that judge chutkans assistant u. S. Attorney in d. C. Trying Homicide Cases and it wasnt surprising. But it was unusual. Because, ordinarily, at these arraignment hearings, with a Magistrate Judge will do is say, lets all come back in about a month and we will bring our calendars, and we will begin to ruminate about possible trial dates. No. Judge chutkan will be setting a trial date 25 days from now. And i predict its going to be a speedy trial. Andrew weissmann, to the point that we learned from john lauro tonight, hes offering an alternative piece of dialogue to what appears in the indictment. Hes offering us these words from Donald Trumps mouth. What President Trump said is, lets go with option d, lets just halt, lets just pause the voting and allow the State Legislatures to take one last look and make a determination. I dont know why a Defense Lawyer is going to start giving facts about a critical moment. Its the whole case. And by the way, it is such a damning thing when you put it in context. Because remember, what the indictment alleges is prior to that the reason this had to be done with the Vice President is because prior to that all the efforts that trump took with respect to the secretaries of state did not work. So, for him to say lets just double check, theres nothing to double check. He actually threatened criminal prosecution against the secretary of state of georgia and he still stuck to his guns. So this sort of, oh, lets just buy some time, its illegal, and its not like theres any real dispute. He knew the secretaries of state had said to him, no, there is no issue, these have been certified, there is no legal basis to do it. So i just dont know why john, who is a good lawyer, did not just zip it and not say anything. They dont teach tv in law school. One other point, which i dont think we will get to this, but if it Defense Lawyer who makes a statement on behalf of their client, that is an admission. Okay, so this admissible in court . You have to make a motion and say i am saying this was an agent of the defendant. I mean, again, the judge would have discretion to say maybe this particular statement wasnt made for him. But there is a case called gaf that says if you are an agent of a defendant your making a statement on his or her be her behalf, that is admissible. So again, that is why it is fine to say here the defense is but to start weighing in on this, not that donald trump is going to testify, but a fee were and he didnt say exactly, he can be crossexamined on this. So this was kind of a rookie mistake. Just to be clear, john is a good lawyer. I think this was not a smart move. I agree that what ive seen so far in the transcript, hes a good lawyer in the courtroom. This is absolutely stunning. It happens in what is his third day On Television. Maybe his second day On Television. He was doing the same interview, glenn kirschner, with everyone, and just saying, First Amendment, advice of counsel. Hes doing the same thing with every interview and then tonight, and by the way, he was doing that in this interview the first half of it, and then tonight he gets to this point, where he starts putting words in his defendants mouth. He starts quotations defendant on the crucial conversation in the indictment with the Vice President. And, by the way, the Vice President s Chief Of Staff is there is a witness to this the Vice President s counsel was there, as a witness to this. Many witnesses to this conversation. And john lauro decide that im going to make an entry into that conversation right now, which i am learning from Andrew Weissmann is admissible in this case, which is what i was wondering about as soon as i heard him say it. It makes no sense, lawrence. I mean, what i hear when you where that clip of john lauro saying, you know, donald trump just said lets go with option d, donald trump said lets go with criminal option d. What i appreciate about the way jack smith structured this indictment, with the six coconspirators, not named but largely identified in substance, five of them are lawyers. So ordinarily there is a defense of advice of counsel. Look, i may have done something wrong, but i was relying on the advice of counsel. This is not quite that. The five lawyers named as coconspirators really converts this into an advice of coconspirators defense. Because thats who the lawyers. Our. Coconspirators. So it really does diminish the force of an advice of counsel defense when all of your council giving you advice are your coconspirators in a criminal endeavor. So i dont know why john lauro chooses to talk, but he should probably talk. Stop. It seems like to speak up a Talking Point saying he was just asking for a pause because thats what senator cruz was asking for on the senate floor. Listen to what mark short said about this today. Because that talk about pause was in the air before john lauro said this. Marc short, Vice President s Chief Of Staff, was in the room when all of these things were said by donald trump. Lets listen to what he said today. I think there is some of this notion out there youre hearing from the president s Defense Counsel that they just wanted the Vice President to return it to the states, which of course the Vice President has no such authority to do and or has any Vice President throughout the years. But i think its important, jake, to know that the request was for Vice President to simply unilaterally dismiss the electors. The prosecution has notes from the president s Senior Adviser saying, look, pence isnt going to along with that, perhaps we can pivot to this other plan. One more, this is a quick one. What mike pence said about the pause. The American People deserve to know that President Trump and his advisers didnt just ask me to pause. They asked me to reject votes, return votes, essentially to overturn the election. Andrew, overturn the election is the Vice President s phrase for what they were asking him to do. And pause is as illegal is Everything Else theyre asking him to do. It is wishywashy as mike pence has been up until this point. There is something, look, he has sort of found religion in the sense that yes, this is now all public, so he cant put his head in the sand. Theres something remarkable about the former Vice President to the United States and his staff telling us what happened in the oval office with the president of the United States saying. And clearly understood by the Vice President that he should overthrow the votes of americans. The thing that is so disheartening about this is this should not be a political issue. You would think this would be an American Issue when i was growing up there were all these republicans who were Law And Order republicans who would be completely appalled by this. To me its like, there are a lot of good republicans. Can you please run one of them . Its just so unbelievable that really a star witness in this case is going to be the former Vice President of United States. Glenn kirschner, the other thing that john lauro did tonight On Television was further promote the star witness against his star client mike pence, who was already provoked enough by the release of his indictment to just go full out they are now on donald trump. John lauro just made mike pence kind of all the more forceful about this. Yeah, and as andrew said, mike pence seems to have found religion. Of course, mike pence is forever telling us about his religion. It seems like hes found allegiance to the rule of law hearing him talk the way he is talking now, better late than never. I never understood how it was that when donald trump waged that relentless Pressure Campaign against mike pence and then when you read in the indictment, donald trump ultimately said if you dont do what im telling you to do, i am going to have to criticize you publicly. And then midattack in the capitol, he sends out a tweet blaming mike pence. Mike pence didnt have the courage to do what he shouldve done to protect our democracy and our constitution which inspired the mob to want to hang mike pence. I will never understand why it took so long for mike pence to come to the place where apparently he now resides, which is fully blaming donald trump for not only tried to overturn american democracy but endangering his life, the life of his family, the life of all the Police Officers at the capitol and everyone who is in the u. S. Capitol building that day. He will ultimately be a powerful and damning witness against donald trump. Glenn kirschner thank you very much for starting off our discussion. Andrew weissmann is going to remain with us for the rest of the hour. Coming up, we will hear more from the star witness mike pence who has had much, much more to say in the last 24 hours. Thats next. When i was diagnosed with hiv, i didnt know who i would be. But here i am. Being me. Keep being you. 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Here is an indiana on the Campaign Trail. The first time i heard in early december someone suggests that as Vice President might be able to decide which votes i to reject and which to accept, i knew that it was false. Our founders had just won a war against the king and the last thing they would have done was vest unilateral authority in any one person to decide who would be the next president. I dismissed it out of hand but sadly, the president was surrounded by a group of Crack Pot Lawyers who kept telling him what is itching ears wanted him to hear. And i made my case to what i thought my oath of the constitution to require, the president ultimately continued to demand that i choose him over the constitution. Andrew weissmann is with us and, also joining our discussion tim heaphy, a former u. S. Attorneys and the who served as Lead Investigator for the january Six Committee. And barb mcquade, a University Of Law School shes an msnbc analyst. Tim heaphy, let me only getting to do that now, finally. He says the first time i heard about this, in early december, i said i rejected it, refused to accept it. The very first time. And then the last time of course was 11 44 pm on january 6th. Yeah, he did ask a lot of people after december if it was true. I think he was doing some diligence and calling people, he called dan quayle, he called paul ryan. He didnt talk to judge looted big luttig asked greg craig jacob, his lawyer to research the situation even before december. But what he said there in the clip in indiana todays consistent with what marc short and greg jacob told us. Which was, he was consistent that he did research and asked for advice. He was pretty convinced all along that he did not have such authority and diligence, to only confirm that. I dont know, lawrence, if he is the star witness. He is an important witness. But star witness in this case, in my view, there are so many important voices who corroborate each other, that you can remove any one of them, and the case remains strong. We didnt have mike pence, obviously, to make good criminal referrals that we made. So, i dont know, candidly, that i see any one star witness in this case. Barbara mcquade, My Argument About Star Witness here is based its evidentiary but its also impact. Its also a Vice President of the United States, a first one in history, to testify in a criminal case after being Vice President is testifying against the former president. Hes going to say to that jury under oath that that man said to me, you are too honest, and in terms of dramatic jury impact in the flow of this evidence im expecting jack smith to structure the flow of this evidence so that this former Vice President becomes the real commander in that room from the Witness Stand and the person who they wish was in charge that jury will wish was in charge on january six. You know regardless of what we call him, star witness or how he stacks up against other witnesses because maybe we hear from mark meadows and other people who are very powerful, important witnesses. No doubt mike pence will be a very significant witness in this case. I think in part because of his unique role. I think in part because he alone had conversations with President Trump and hes the only one who can describe some of those conversations in those situations. But also because of his deep loyalty for the president from before the election in 2016 throughout the administration, was always a fawning loyal wing man for donald trump. Very powerful. One of the things that i thought with so persuasive about the january 6th select committee hearings, that the key witnesses were all republicans. They were all people who worked for or with or near donald trump. I think that in similar fashion, witnesses we are going to hear from in this trial will also be republicans and trump loyalists. None more loyal certainly the then mike pence. Andrew, the Pence Testimony is so simple and clear now and being delivered on the Campaign Trail so it has this double impact. We can anticipate in the courtroom but its being heard by people who dont want to hear it. He saying, very clearly, he said, frankly, with the president has said over and over again over the last two and a half years is completely false. Thats mike pence talking about donald trump. So, hes doing something that jack smith cant do. He is actually allowing voice to the allegations and the indictment in a way the jack cant, because hes not gonna publicly speak about, so it is having that effect of getting the word out from, at the very least, and important witness. I think theres one other thing about mike pence. Hes almost an exhibit. Here is a guy who was on the same ticket. Its trump and pence. And you have the Vice President knowing he lost, saying theres got to be a peaceful transfer of power. So you have an example just in his person of someone who was doing what youre supposed to do and you have an example of someone whos not. That is going to speak volumes in terms of him just being there and setting the example for how you are supposed to behave. Unlike mark meadows and other very big witnesses in this, case, mike pence was in the capitol on january 6th, and they were chanting that they wanted to kill him. 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Call miracle ear at 1800miracle and schedule your free, no obligation hearing evaluation today. Breaking news, we are back with Andrew Weissmann, Barbara Mcquade, and tim heaphy, and john lauro did it again. Donald trumps Criminal Defense Lawyer went on another trump supporting Television Show tonight. This time, on newsmax, and he said it again. We offer testimony from donald trump. He said On Television tonight. At the and, he meaning trump asked mr. Pence to pause the voting for ten days, allow the State Legislatures to weigh in and then they can make a determination to audit or reaudit or recertify. So there he is saying again deliberately now, this is no slip, this is no accident. This was his decision to go On Television tonight to say that at the end he asked mr. Pence to pause the voting for ten days. Andrew weissmann, as we have already pointed out, the lawyer who was advising them on this, in writing said, he believed its against the law to do that. There is no advice of Council Defense here for that reason, the White House Deputy counsel told President Trump at the time at john eastman actually said this theory does not work. By the way, the opening part of what john lauro added which was at the end, if hes adding that because he is just heard from mike pence and his counsel. Thats not a good idea because they just said, thats not what he initially did, he initially actually said, just throw it out. That qualifier is actually confirmatory of what we just heard mike pence say. Again, just to be clear again, this idea that it needed to go back to the states, that is something that we know from this indictment, that we know from the Tape Recordings and of brad raffensperger, that did not work. This was just a play for time, of can we just get this back and we can go back and continue pressuring the states. Because they knew that didnt work. So this was plan b after plan a failed with mike pence which was exactly what mike pence was saying. Tim heaphy, the unprofessionalism of john lauro right now is just playing on itself. I think Andrews Point is right. You saw on other networks today, you saw mike pence talking about the pause and how ridiculous that was. You saw mike pences Chief Of Staff talking about the pause and how ridiculous that was, and it seems like john lauro was watching tv and decided to make his next reply On Television and replied to what he was hearing from other people on tv today . Its really hard to tell lawrence what he knows and what hes paying attention to. What actually happened was that we learn from people that were in the room when that happened, marc short and craig jacob was that john eastman sensed that mike pence was reluctant hesitant to throw the electors out and accept the fake electors, proposed this pause. The Vice President was also very resistant to that, so they went back to the original plan, just throw them out. It was a casting about of, what about this, what about that . And the Vice President said i dont have the authority to do any that. And so all of, that john eastman conceded that as you have indicated as the indictment indicates and in writing and then in conversation with greg jacob. And then even in a meeting On January 4th at the white house and so none of it matters with the sequence and john eastman knew it. Mike pence certainly knew it, and that means donald trump knew. It and so, Barbara Mcquade, Donald Trumps Criminal Defense Lawyer has tonight publicly entered too statements from donald trump very similar in wording, but two statements that andrew suggests could be admissible in the trial, a trial or no one expects donald trump to take the stand and testify himself, this might be evidence in that case as presented by the prosecution as an admission to what they are accusing donald trump of doing . I think donald trump and his lawyers play different gain in the rest of us. I think we are all focused on the evidence its gonna come in on trial in the court, and i think what he said tonight is harmful and, its not gonna provide any valid legal offense, but i think Donald Trumps game is to win in the court of Public Opinion. Detained the potential jury pool, solely needs one person there to nullify it. This is all about getting the public talk about it, now relayed and his lawyers and to get a pause, a think thats the game replying here. But as a dangerous game, because ultimately in a courtroom, the judge is going to instruct the jury to Pay Attention to the facts and the law and what they hear in court, not anything thats extraneous. Thats how the system is supposed to work and i believe it will work in this case. Were Gonna Squeeze in a final break right here. When we come back were gonna have a video of this latest admission by Donald Trumps Criminal Defense Lawyer. Well be right back after this break. Break. Tv try Tide Power Pods with 85 more tide in every pod. Who needs that much more tide . Crashing Sounds everyones gonna need more tide. Its a mess out there. Thats why theres 85 more tide in every power pod. See . Baby ah. I was stuck. Unresolved Depression Symptoms were in my way. I needed more from my antidepressant. Vraylar helped give it a lift. Adding vraylar to an antidepressant. Is clinically proven to help relieve overall Depression Symptoms. Better than an antidepressant alone. 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We now have that second truly extraordinary video of the night of john lauro, Donald Trumps criminal defense attorney in this new indictment against him admitting to a trump supporting tv interview were, to one of the elements of the criminal conduct charged against donald trump and jack smiths latest indictment. Lets listen now to the second time that john lauro said a version of this on trump tv tonight. President trump wanted to get to the truth. He desperately wanted to get to what happened in the 2020 cycle. He did it in the courtroom, he did it in lobbying legislatures, its all First Amendment, and then at the end he asked mr. Pence to pause the voting for ten days and allow the State Legislatures to weigh in and they could make and determination to audit or reaudit or recertify. Tim heaphy there it is again, that is a very deliberate choice to go On Television and basically admit to one of the accusations in the indictment . Sort of suggests that he is going to testify. If you are going out affirmatively with a story, a narrative, its actually not a counter narrative, its just a narrative with what jack smith is indicated, what mike pence is set, sort of indicates the donald trump will get up until the story. Again, illadvised for a lawyer to provide all that information which really seems to reinforce the president s case. I think what are upset earlier is exactly right. This seems to be a Public Relations defense as opposed to a Legal Defense. Because, again, he is now admitting the president encouraged mike pence to do something that the person on whom he was relying for advice, john eastman, conceded, did not have merit. So, i think barb must be correct that what is he is trying to do is to win this case on a valid Legal Defense barb mcquade, boy, we are all hoping tim is right about donald trump testifying in this case. It would be very illuminating to the country to hear from the defendant on this. I hope we get that lucky. So, this is clearly now, barb mcquade, this was a decision that was made, a very strange decision that was made to go out in public and make admission like this. It does seem like its a decision and not just a mistake. Its almost like theyre crowdsourcing their defenses. Last year we heard about First Amendment, throw a few out there and lets see what resonates with the public. Theyre almost focus gripping the defense i think this is all about winning in the court of Public Opinion and thats trumps game in some way he succeeds in playing that game. But i think its a very different reality when you get inside a courtroom and a judge instructs the jury to focus on the facts and the law. Rigorous Jury Instruction i hope can help funnel out anybody who might be inclined to nullify the law. In trumps favor. Andrew, two nights ago at this hour, i asked you, i thought the most difficult question of the day for a lawyer, when you look at this indictment, we had the indictment for the first time, can you see a criminal defense in the courtroom . And you couldnt but some other republicans have been kind of throwing them around and barb mcquade is right, theres a Crowd Sourcing Element to what john lauro said tonight, because there were some republican officials saying, oh, he just wanted to pause, the pause that ted cruz was asking for. And here we are. We saw that in the maralago case as soon as the search happened. To wear, aced to call it defense de jure. Remember the Planting Defense . Yes. Everything was declassified in my mind . So, theres just a series of different the documents were all sent in a rush. They were just so many different things, and i think barb is right, lets see what plays. One thing about john lauros statement that is worth noting is, hes going to have an important decision, probably the most important decision in the case is coming up at the end of august when the judge decides the trial date. He needs to be conveying to the judge that he is massively busy just looking through the january Six Committee evidence that tim and his colleagues put together. Going on tv is not going to impress the judge that this is something that it is so massive that he cant get his arms around. Its not to say that this is not an aspect of defense but the impression you are giving right now until the end of august which is when she is making the critical decision in the case. Everyone clearly understands. It when is the trial date . That is the whole ball game, because, as we were all talking about, this is not a defensible case. So that is everything. This is not a good look in terms of impressing, this is an adult judge, these are not children, this isnt a a political serious person. This is not going to help him in that argument. Lets listen in 20 more seconds about what mike pence said today on a New Hampshire radio show on the Campaign Trail. I just want the American People to know that i did my duty that day and President Trump was wrong and saying that i had some right to overturn the election. Thats completely false, he continues to repeat it, his allies in the media continue to repeat it and im not gonna stand for it. Its the law, rob. Its the law and history of this country. Tim heaphy, there is mike pence saying donald trump was wrong, its completely false, that is the law. He is not letting up on this. He is kind of a jack smith cocounsel there on the Campaign Trail. Absolutely. He is saying out loud what is Chief Of Staff and his lawyer told us what the documents reflect, what everybody else has said. He now is saying it himself. Thats important, lets thats direct and not circumstantial evidence. And he is an important voice here in part because of this principal, but also because he is a victim. I think it was you lawrence who said earlier, he has a Human Dimension of this, he was 40 feet from the rioters as hes fleeing the Senate Chamber down to a secure location in the capitol. They get that close to him, chanting that he should be hung. So there is a Human Dimension on top of the anger principle that he provides that will be important. But again there are a lot of important witnesses. Theres a lot of strong evidence that is coming and that is why jack smith is holding a full house, not a pair of twos. Thats gonna have to be tonights last word. Tim heaphy, Barbara Mcquade and Andrew Weissmann thank you very much for staying with me during this Breaking News. The 11th hour with Stephanie Ruhle is next. Ruhle is next. Live pictures of former President Donald Trump coming for his third arraignment informants. Its a bizarre thing. The trump gets arrested. Well it is not the first indictment it is arguably the most important. Donald trump has been taken into custody by the government he tried to overthrow. What weve been fighting for all along is accountability and justice. Several Trump Supporters of being here with signs and flags. There are also a lot of people whove been carrying signs that say things like lockup. Were getting Realtime Information from reporters that are in the medium. Former President Donald Trump is standing facing the judge. He says not guilty. Every bad thing they can get