Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline 20240704

Office. What any of that portends is anyones guess at this hour. We have eyes on entrances and exits of that courthouse. Journalists there standing by and a few trained ears to the ground. As soon as we know something, anything at all, we will let you know. We should know today marks two weeks since donald trump announced that he had received a Target Letter in this case. It suggests he could be charged with Conspiracy To Defraud the United States, conspiracy to obstruct the january 6th session of congress, and depriving voters of their rights. Here with me are my guests. First, lets bring in justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian, who has been following all this for us today. Ken, bring us up to speed for what we do know at this hour. Reporter greetings from the department of justice, where we are not so patiently waiting for news that explains the developments you just laid out. There are a lot of uncertainties around this process, because this is two weeks to the day since former President Trump announced that he had gotten a Target Letter. All eyes were on that grand jury meeting today, and a few blocks from me, we await to see whether they took a vote on an indictment. And if they did, whether that will be released publicly tonight. Of course, then what it contains and theres so many Unanswered Questions that are so crucially important to the future of this case. We know the bare bones of the charges laid out in the Target Letter. But one huge question is whether there could be codefendants in any case like this, or cooperators, and what that would mean for the timetable for any potential trial. I think its important to make clear to viewers, and viewers of this show know this well, that this case is fundamentally different. And arguably far more significant than anything thats gone on before in terms of Legal Proceedings involving donald trump. Even the classified documents case, as serious as that is, this case is about trying to thwart the will of the voters and trying to thwart the lawful transfer of power, which is fundamental to our democracy. A lot of people watching this believe we will see a Speaking Indictment that makes that case passionately and marshals a lot of evidence. But were waiting and well have to see. Let me ask you about the atmospherics around what you have seen today. Youve been covering this from day one. Tell us a little about what you have been compared to previous days. Does this feel any different, noticed anything different whatsoever about what is taking place in washington, d. C. Around the courthouse, as well as the department of justice . Reporter i mean, its hard for me to talk about some of this, but i can say for sure there is a feeling here at the Justice Department that were waiting for news. There is a feeling among our colleagues were watching the comings and goings of the grand jury and the prosecutors at the courthouse, that today could be a very important day. Theres some context, some perspective. Our colleagues who have been at the courthouse have watched a stream of witnesses come into that grand jury, including many of the people who testified before the committee, and some of whom couldnt tell their full story. So that process unfolded over months, and weeks, and now it appears to be at its end, and we really do feel like news could be imminent. Again, that could change. As we said at the top, well wait and see and not get ahead of our elves, ari, but based on what we have seen from donald trump himself, from his lawyers, talking about this Target Letter and ken alluded to, if an indictment came today in the glimpses we have had from the trump camp have given us some insight into it, what possible charges could we anticipate on these potential crimes . Charges that relate to the stealing of the election, the effort to stop joe biden from taking office. So we have seen that in the federal context of election related charges. Some of the precedents that have been written about, look at other case where is there were efforts to corrupt or steal elections. Not all voter plots work, but whether its done through the arcain elector process, which is how we do president ial elections, or stuffing ballots, the law doesnt care. In this case, there were other plots with it. As ken said, a Speaking Indictment is what everybody would be expecting here, precisely because this will be Ground Breaking and oppressive. We have never seen a former president , and one who is running to reclaim the office, face charges for trying to turn this country into a dictatorship. You said Something Else that i thought captures the whole moment, where you said were all patiently waiting. Im reminded of 50 cents classic, ive been patiently waiting for a track to explode on, my flow has been hot for so long. And jack smiths pen, if you will, has been hot. He has been writing indictments. He has indicted new people in florida where, up until a couple of weeks before they moved, they didnt know there was a grand jury there. So our colleagues, our bureau in d. C. , all of our lawyers and legal folks around here, are tracking all of the clues and tea looefs. At the end of the day, you have to look at the recent history, as jack smith keeps it close to his vest. Yes, you have a Target Letter. You can open a grand jury here or there, Add A Superseding indictment. As you said, as 50 said, were all patiently waiting, but the guy who is in charge will decide the timing. Let me pick up on what ari said and to kens point, the fundamental nature of this crime. This is perhaps the most significant, and that is not to belittle any of the other allegations or charges against donald trump, but the significance of this particular crime to aris point is that it was a crime that effectively was undermining the very existence of our government, an attempt to undo our democracy. Completely. I mean, you think about and worry about hyperbole here, but i think this is the most important prosecution in the history of the department of justice. The most, as alleged, Treacherous Act ever by a president of the United States. The biggest assault say possibly only the civil war on the actual constitutional rule of law and the principle of the peaceful transfer of power. I dont think it gets any bigger. When you overlay it with what is happening in the election, we will be very shortly in total history, my kids, when we go in a big tunnel, they hold their breath, and when its close to the end, its really hard. Were kind of all there now, but its coming very soon and well know so much more, maybe 48 hours from now, maybe half an hour than we do. Tim, youve had the birdseye view through the january 6th investigation on this big picture. A lot of people anticipating what jack smith might do next are looking at this from a lot of different perspectives. Again, to aris point, it could have been about the fake electors or the actual day of january 6th or the Pressure Campaign on mike pence to impede a congressional proceeding and stop the certification of electoral votes. The alleged crimes in so many of this process to overturn the entire election, come at it from many different angles. Give me your take on where you see a possible charge coming, and which aspect of that alleged crime would be the most or perhaps even the most secure to prosecute at this stage . Yeah, look, we spend a lot of time talking about the lawyers and the process. The facts are what really drives this. The facts here are stunning. We had an intentional plan by the former president and coconspirators to disrupt the transfer of power and threaten democracy. Jack smith has so many facts from which to choose to put in an indictment. Many different criminal statutes from which to choose that would apply to those facts. Facts make criminal cases. Facts make history. Not lawyers. Not processes, but facts. The facts have been obvious for a long time. The facts were obvious during our hearings last summer. I think the facts have only gotten more compelling since, and i suspect the Speak Indictment in this case will reveal some new facts. As ken said earlier, theres some folks that didnt want to cooperate with us that are probably cooperating with the special counsel. But a lot of this noise about the indictments and the counts, it will come down to what happened, and what happened has been clear for a long time. It is pretty revolutionary, and its all going to play out in the coming days. One of the things, i think a lot of people have noticed throughout this Big Lie Campaign by donald trump to say that the election was stolen, was the big grift, was the money that was raised on the back of this big lie. I want to play for you this sound bite, talking about that specifically, and ill get your thoughts afterwards. Watch. The claims that the election was stolen were so successful, President Trump and his allies raised 250 million, nearly 100 million in the first week after the election. On november 9, 2020, President Trump created a separate entity called the Save America Pac. Most money raised went to this pac, not election related litigation. The Save America Pac made millions, and gave 1 million to trump chief of staff mark meadows charitable foundation, 1 million to the America First policy institute, and conservative organization which employed several former Trump Administration officials. 204,857 to the trump hotel collection, and over 5 million to events of the company that ran the rally on the ellipse. That was one of the investigators the January 6th Committee talking about that big lie and putting the conspiracy behind raising these funds into context for us. Could that be a charge that donald trump faces . Absolutely. That was amanda wick, who ran the green team, part of our investigation that was focused on funding streams, one of the many talented lawyers, and what they found is that this was a big grift, exactly. Its hard to look inside someones mind and divine motivation. Here, the effort to prevent the transfer of power and the effort to raise money was one in the same. The stop the steal fundraising raised 250 million between the election and the inauguration. Extremely lucrative messaging that essentially fooled people into giving, you know, 10, 20 a month, telling them that it was going to the election defense fund, which did not exist. All that money went to the Save America Pac, which is now in the president s pocket, being used to pay for the legal fees of witnesses and our investigation, some of them same folks before the same committee. So fraud is a big theme here. We laid it out in our report. Im certain that jack smith is similarly looking at fraud as one of the menu of facts that i mentioned before. Theres so much here from which to choose to put into an indictment. This could go in a lot of different directions. That is one of them. Harry, when we think of january 6th and what happened that day, i think a lot of people are thinking of the mindset that donald trump was in post election. Its going to be something jack smith will have to establish that he knew that the election was not stolen. We know through the work of the January 6th Committee, people like bill barr told him the election was not stolen. Yet he persisted with this. How difficult will that be for jack smith, if there are charges, to establish that donald trump, his mindset, cannot be, he believed that the election was stolen so he was allowed to do what he was doing . Not very. And for three reasons. First, its not simply the reason who told him, but the people who heard him say it. Cassidy hutchinson, others heard him say he lost. Second, it doesnt matter in terms of the charges, even if he thinks he won. That doesnt mean you can go in and try to forestall the vote and have, you know, and let loose the marauders. And third, because basically this is going to come down to an overarching course of conduct that ends with january 6th itself, and his inaction during those days during that hour and a half will speak volumes. Finally, he cant testify. If you think about it, its tricky how even he gets his not very believable version of it in. Carol, donald trump has embraced where he finds himself today. He certainly on one hand appears to be rattled by the flurry of legal charges that may be coming at him in georgia potentially, certainly in florida, and even d. C. And manhattan. But he also relishes this by going to his voters, even as we saw over the weekend at the Campaign Rallies in erie, pennsylvania and elsewhere, saying hes taking the fall, taking this hit because if its not him, they could be going after his supporters and voters. So what do you think his mindset is right now between the reality of where we are in the country and what donald trump portrays to his supporters . Thats a good question. I would say that what has always worked for donald trump, and polls suggest that its working for him now, his base of supporters hasnt really shaken very far in any way since this flurry of charges that have been brought, and flurry of charges that are heralded to be brought in the near future, both in georgia and in the overturning the effort to overturn the Election Case looked at and investigated by jack smith. His base is just as excited about him as they were when he left office in january of 2021. What works for donald trump is saying that when theyre coming for me, theyre coming for you. My supporters. Theyre trying to derail me so they can derail what you, my supporters, want to happen in this country. In recent days, donald trump has said over and over again that this is a politically motivated set of indictments. All of these indictments and charges are coming at him now because he is running for reelection to the white house. And that is not true about jack smith or michigan or arizona where other investigations are being pursued. Look at some of his and his allies actions to thwart the election. And yet, its a very persuasive and convincing argument for his base, that it took all this time to get to this point of bringing charges. The department of justice for about 14 to 16 months, really resisted looking at trump and his allies and their role in trying to overturn the election and trying to thwart the peaceful transfer of power. Jack smith, i have to say, i watched a lot of federal investigations, and jack smiths probe has been one of the most meteoric and rapid that ive ever seen, both on the classified records case, and now what we think is an indictment to follow a Target Letter some weeks ago. But it is coming at a particularly useful time for donald trump to make his claim that its all about politics and stopping him from returning to the white house and being the savior he likes to describe himself as to his base. Ari, what do you make of how quick to carols point of how quick jack smith has operated here . There was a little criticism at the doj that when january 6th happened, the Biden Administration came in, they were slow to work their way to the top of the attempt to overturn the election. They certainly went after those that stormed the capitol. We saw that. That was the largest doj investigation i believe at the time, and its been yielding tremendous results in convictions for those involved in the violence that day. But there was a criticism that the doj was not going after the big fish until jack smith came in and has been operating with lightning speed. That criticism is based on the recent legal history, indeed because this is a special counsel, we learned all about that during mueller, so people have the understanding this is not the norm Algae Graphic Jurisdiction that we have. All other federal prosecutors are working off where did it happen. So his jurisdiction, his assignment was to look at the documents issues that we discussed and the offsite potential crimes related to january 6th. It says that in the authorizing resolution. Everything on the property of people who physically stormed the property will stay at doj, and jack smith will look at off property individuals like the president of the United States, all these potential plotters. As of today, no indictments have been returned in that part of the case. So we have the Target Letter, so thats a change. But just to remind everyone. Nobody who wasnt there has yet been charged. Donald trump got a Target Letter saying were giving you the warning for being an offsite plotter of january 6th and other related things. That would break ground. So yes, i think what happened, at least what we can tell happened is, those other prosecutions went forward. It was slow at first. Now it looks like, based on the Target Letter, they are going to charge off site. So jack smith has shown a laser focus on his mandate and doesnt seem concerned about optics or criticism that you can never indict a former president. Yes, some traditions change. In america, some of the traditions that have changed the most have been the most needed. And not to mention, a president ial candidate as well, saying it would be kind of unprecedented in this country to see a president ial candidate feel these types of charges. Were you going to add something . Donald trump is mr. Unprecedented, so its just a matter, does the rule of law respond, thats all. Tim, for most americans, we remember january 6th from those images we saw, the storming of the capitol. As you demonstrated throughout the hearings, this was part of a broader plot, as i earlier, on different fronts. I want to speak to the violence of that day for a moment and play again something from Cassidy Hutchinson that gives us insight into Donald Trumps thinking in those hours, on that day, january 6th. Take a listen to this. Another reason, likely the primary reason, is because he wanted he was angry we werent letting people through with weapons. When we were in the off stage, as part of the conversation, i overheard the president Say Something to the effect of, i dont care that they have weapons, theyre not here to hurt me. Let me people in, they can watch the capitol from here. Take the fing mags away. How criminally liable is donald trump for the violence that ensued that day . And of all the potential crimes committed, is that something jack smith could and should pursue in your opinion . Yeah, absolutely. First of all, the clip you just played is a conversation she heard directly. A lot of what we got was things that she was told or other people were told. Theres a statement that a witness heard the president himself make. Take the fing mags away, these people arent here to hurt me. The whole ball game for jack smith is what did the leader of the conspiracy intend . That statement shows hiss mindful, and people in the crowd are armed. Hes mindful they are going to the capitol. That informs his incendiary remarks during the subsequent speech. It informs his passivity over the course of the day. All of that demonstrates intent, that they be successful, that the joint session be disrupted. The whole key for jack smith, what is inside his mind . Very difficult for a prosecutor to do. Here is a direct manifestation from a witness who heard him say, i know these people are armed, let them here. That undoubtedly will be part of the evidentiary showing of the president s intent. All right. Please stick around. Ken, thank you for your reporting. If you get any news, you have to come back immediately. We have the mic for the next two hours. Well be waiting to hear from you. When we come back, more on what we could be getting from the special counsel. More straight news ahead. Dont go anywhere. Head dont go anywhere. The chase Ink Business Premier Card is made for people like sam, who make everyday products, designed smarter. Like a smart coffee grinder, that orders fresh beans for you. Oh, genius for more breakthroughs like that i need a breakthrough card. Like ours with 2. 5 cash back on purchases of 5,000 or more. Plus unlimited 2 cash back on all other purchases. And with greater spending potential, sam can keep making smart ideas a brilliant reality the Ink Business Premier Card from chase for business. Make more of whats yours. Im jayson. Im living with hiv and im on cabenuva. It helps keep me undetectable. For adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, longacting Hiv Treatment you can get every other month. Cabenuva is two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. Its really nice not to have to rush home and take a daily hiv pill. Dont receive cabenuva if youre allergic to its ingredients or if you taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. Serious side effects include allergic reactions postinjection reactions, Liver Problems, and depression. If you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. Tell your doctor if you have Liver Problems or Mental Health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. Some of the most common side effects include injectionsite reactions, fever, and tiredness. If you switch to cabenuva, attend all treatment appointments. Ready to treat your hiv in a different way . Ask your doctor about everyothermonth cabenuva. Every other month, and im good to go. Sleepovers just arent what they used to be. Every other month, a house full of screens . Basically no hiccups . You guys have no idea how good youve got it. How old are you . Like, 80 . Back in my day, it was scary stories and flashlights. We dont get scared. Oh, really . Mom can see your search history. Thats what i thought. Introducing the next generation 10g network. Only from xfinity. Sleepovers just arent what they used to be. A house full of screens . Basically no hiccups . You guys have no idea how good youve got it. How old are you . Like, 80 . Back in my day, it was scary stories and flashlights. We dont get scared. Oh, really . Mom can see your search history. Thats what i thought. Introducing the next generation 10g network. Only from xfinity. Have you testified before the grand jury . No, i dont talk about anything. Do you feel like its appropriate, the investigation . Tim, that was mark meadows, so i guess my question is, does that sound like a cooperating witness . You know, mark meadows says a lot of things to a lot of people, and i dont really know what his position is. He has exposure, as our report made clear. He took actions that manifested agreement with the former president to take steps to disrupt the joint session. That puts him in the conspiracy. There is leverage that he would feel compelled to cooperate with the special counsel. Or not. Again, i dont know. We had the benefit of a lot of Text Messages from mark meadows. He was a very important witness, even though he refused to come in and talk to us by providing those Text Messages, which gave us a good road map as to his level of involvement and every part of that plan. But i cant say i have a hunch, a guess to his status now. He has been inconsistent in his statements about january 6th in the joint session before and after that event. Wouldnt we learn something about that in a possible indictment who is cooperating and not cooperating out of the gate . Oh, yeah. Well be able to infer some people not named by the doj, but mark meadows, hes up to his neck. He testified in the grand jury, and he is a good and sophisticated lawyer. That means hes cooperating. The question is, is he going to have to take in some plea deal to something lower or did his attorney pull off a miracle and let him walk and merely testify . But hes theres no way he testifies with his exposure unless a deal has been made. You were saying Something Interesting about the possible codefendants based on the different crimes that may have been committed around the attempt to overturn the election. Who would you potentially see as individuals that were part of this inner circle as we just heard mark meadows would be one of those inner circle type of folks, but who else was part of this orchestra, if you will . Right. At the end, people surrounding him, and they were involved in Different Things obviously. Rudy giuliani. In terms of the plots involving john eastman, and some of those crazy lawyers who were there. But smith has a choice of maybe five or six different kinds of schemes to charge. I see him as doing three of them based on each of the three charges. They do have a different cast of characters. But im going to be ripping through the indictment first thing to see about mark meadows, and then also from there Rudy Giuliani and john eastman. Again, when you look at these conspear sis, thats one of the charges prosecutors used when you didnt pull it off. Incompetence, failure is no defense. If you show up at the bank and wave your gun around but you dont get away, the crime doesnt have to be successful. If you have agreed with someone if you conspired. So you have attempted over here, you get a little more hands on. Conspiracy, you can be way over there, but you are conspireing to do it. And although its not automatic proof, if you are the main beneficiary of it, here, well, theres only one person who remains president if you hijack the process and we become a dictatorship and thats donald trump. So hes got a lot there. The other point i would make, and msnbc and nbc news, we have not confirmed who the coconspirators are, we dont know. But when you talk about that docket, youre talking about the people who are the instruments of some of the plots we know about, whether charged or not. Thats these lawyers like eastman and powell, potentially giuliani. Thats one bucket. If this were an insurrection charge, if you went back to the violence, you would expect to see Militia Members as coconspirators. Proud boys, oath keepers. Exactly. And intermediaries like powell and flynn. Or even someone like mr. Bannon who were speaking openly about how wild it was going to be. Were going to take it. So, again, you can glean something, the moment we have a Target Letter. If it comes down, youll glean on page one, which Direction Smith is going. That tells you about the case he needs to prove. And since we have been patiently waiting, the theme of the day, sometimes people say the biggest case if you think the insurrection was bad, you say well, the biggest case possible, thats bigger, bigger is better, we have that in our culture, right . Thats not how prosecutors look at it. They look at evidence, whats provable, whats winnable. So Donald Trumps best Case Indictment Scenario might be something so big that a jury balks at it, the fact that he mentioned the proud boys doesnt mean they hang him on that. Versus a very precise, even narrow set of charges on these democracy issues that attach him to the paper trail. That might be the worst thing for defendant trump. Its so important that the prosecutor simplifies. From the Target Letter, there was this statute that was enacted during the civil war to provide tewells for federal agents to go after groups like the kkk who engaged in terrorism. Again, that was from the Target Letter we referenced. So somebody who may have been watching this, how is this civil rights issue coming up in the middle of an attempt to overturn the election, walk us through that legal rational. Its what i will be looking for after mark meadows. Its a very broad statute applied to many things, including abridgement of the right to vote, and what the different pundits have been chattering about this nonstop, how exactly is smith going to connect the dots. Remember, hes not bringing insurrection. I think it would be sort of tidy for this to somehow hit at the january 6th conduct itself. It also could be tailor made for the false electors. But thats the big question, and to me, what matters is that hes doing that instead of the insurrection statute, and i think that means likely a stab at the conduct that actually occurred at the end, the melee. And carol, with all of this happening, there still is a lot of, i guess, you know, ambivalence of candidates running against donald trump on this issue. We saw ron desantis speaking to megyn kelly saying donald trump could have handled january 6th better but he doesnt think it would rise to the level of criminality or prosecution. Incredible that the Republican Party with all the evidence, still candidates refuse to criticize donald trump for january 6th in a meaningful way. Thats such a good point. There have been, you know, depending on how you count, ive covered six president ial administrations, and republicans in each of them have beaten their chest proudly about their defense and support of the rule of law, the importance of Holding People to account for any criminal activity that theyre engaged in. Any effort to try to break the constitutional protections that make the United States singular, and stand us apart. However, when it comes to the actions of donald trump, whether it be pressuring, for example, a foreign leader, to spy on and undermine an american person, whether it be Donald Trumps effort to hold onto classified records that would get a normal corporal or lieutenant courtmartialed and removed from the military and possibly jailed. Whether it be Donald Trumps work to thwart a president ial election and the will of the voters, republicans have tried to soft pedal their concerns about that. Largely, they say privately, because donald trump controls so Many Republican supporters. Going against donald trump is essentially going against their own chance for reelection. Going against their own chance to run against him for president. Although i have to say, its really hard to be desantis. How do you separate yourself from donald trump if not by saying youre more qualified because you havent been indicted. How do you separate yourself from donald trump if you say, pretty much whatever he did was not ideal, but its not so bad . Its put republicans in a difficult situation, because they continue to be debased by donald trump but still stand by him. Tim, lets talk about the witnesses that have come through the grand jury that you may have not had access to. We talked about this, that jack smith has different resources and capabilities than the January 6th Committee. Who, from those that have come across jack smiths grand jury, stand out to you, that you would have like to speak to that you could not have . Well, theres kind of two categories here. There are witnesses who did speak to us, but stopped short of fulsome testimony because of assertions of privilege, executive, Attorney Client or Fifth Amendment privilege. And then witnesses that just didnt come in, where we didnt have time to get to. So i would want to hear from both. Pat cipollone, very credible, provided information that was very, very important to our overall narrative. But he stopped short of conveying direct communications with the president , because as white house counsel, he believed that information, the ability for a lawyer to give frank advice to the president should be beyond the reach of congress. Jack smith has gotten beyond that. He has a procedural mechanism to get the chief judge that supervises the grand jury to consider claims of privilege and adjudicate them promptly. That goes to the court of appeals, and hes been able to push through some of those privileges. So people like Pat Cipollone who asserted privileges, would be Rudy Giuliani similarly testifying but asserting privileges. The other big unknown here is the steve bannon, roger stone, the potential connection between the folks on the ground, the oath keepers and the proud boys and the white house. We candidly did not establish that direct connection. There was some communications, but the sort of linchpins of that potential communication may very well be the folks like steve bannon and roger stone and mike flynn who were in direct communication with folks on the ground. And in direct communication with the president , mark meadows and folks in the white house. That connection would be very, very interesting, and it is not something candidly we were able to break. That get me to my last point to go back to the discussion that ari was having with harry about charges. Seditious conspiracy is a charge that not jack smith, but the department of justice has used against the folks on the ground. That requires intent that force be used. It requires there to be knowledge of an intent to use force and prove that with respect to the oath keepers and the proud boys. If there was a link that the president somehow or his conspirators were aware of and even actively supported the use of violence, that would be seditious conspiracy. Thats not in the Target Letter or was in our criminal referral. Again, we hadnt established that link. But im sure jack smith is looking for it, and something i would be looking for, did he find such a link, and is there a seditious conspiracy charge . I jump in and would ask you back, given all the investigation your committee did, do you feel like you can say that you got close to that, that you felt you were getting there, or in all fairness, as far as the evidence, you didnt really get there with regard to white house officials. We didnt really get there, ari. Again, there were phone records that suggest, you know, mark meadows has a phone conversation. Donald trump talks to steve bannon on january 6th. We dont know what those conversations were about. We know that bannon is ramping up the intensity on the ground and is in touch with folks out there in the crowd. So is he a sort of conveyer of information . I dont want to overstate our findings, right . We looked hard but could not establish that. But, again, jack smith may have tools that we dont have, and may be able to penetrate those conversations and establish those connection it is they exist. Final thought, did you want to weigh in there . On the conspiracy, there would have to be an agreement. Theres evidence that trump was loving it, like as the flames were burning, he was jujubilant. But he said something thats very important, mark meadows, the identity of the judge. As tim said, there are d. C. Judges who have really made quick work of some of trumps claims. I want to look in there and know which of the judges theres about 14 of them, 10, 11, 12, could be really bad for trump and a couple the opposite. Thanks to you for joining us throughout this hour. We have a lot more to discuss. Up next, the other big news were following out of Fulton County, georgia, were seeing if there is any development. One just received a subpoena. What they are looking for, coming up next. They are lookin, coming up next psoriasis really messes with you. Try. Hope. Fail. No one should suffer like that. I started cosentyx®. Five years clear. Real people with psoriasis look and feel better with cosentyx. Dont use if youre allergic to cosentyx. Before starting get checked for tuberculosis. An increased risk of infection, some serious and a lowered ability to fight them may occur. Tell your doctor about an infection or symptoms or if you had a vaccine or plan to. Tell your doctor if your Crohns Disease symptoms develop or worsen. Serious allergic reaction may occur. Best move ive ever made. Ask your dermatologist about cosentyx®. Hey bud. Wow. Whats all this . Hawaii was too expensive so i brought it here. You know with priceline you could actually take that trip for less than all this. I made a horrible mistake. Go to your happy price priceline more shopping . You should watch your spending honey. Im saving with liberty mutual, mom. They customize your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. Check it out, you could save 700 dollars just by switching. Ooooh, ill look into that. Let me put a reminder on my phone. Save 700 dollars. Pick up dad from airport . Ohhhhhh. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. So its august 1st, which means that we can officially expect Charging Decisions from Fulton County District Attorney fani willis within the month, which based on how things looked today, could land the expresident his third or even his fourth indictment this year. Meanwhile, the d. A. s grand jurys March On In Georgia with the first known subpoenas of those 16 false electors. A journalist says he received two subpoenas yesterday, requiring his testimony between august 7th and august 31st. He writes this lets bring in political reporter and msnbc contributor greg bleustein. Greg, you stumbled upon that same fake lectors meeting with george chidi. What is your reaction to the subpoenas . George called me to ask if i had been subpoenaed too, because this is part of the scrutiny from prosecutors into the fake elector scheme in georgia. I can tell you, a couple days before the republican electors gathered, i called several of them to see if they were meeting and i was told no, there wouldnt be a gathering. So i was startled, george was startled. Both of us were kicked out of that meeting. We were both told by republican officials that it was just an educators meeting. I took a picture of it, tweeted about it. Shortly after we tweeted ant it, it was open to the public. At the time, it was held under secrecy. And we know now that Trumps Campaign officials instructed electors to keep it secret, not just from reporters but also even State Troopers stationed at the capitol. That is the secrecy that they operated under. Let me reaffirm for you something that chidi wrote. He writes what do you expect chidtoshare with the Fulton Grand Jury and how much overlap is there here possibly with what jack smith might be looking at . You know, i think hell share his story. Hell share how he was turned away at the door, once they realized he was a reporter, to try to relay the news of this meeting. Again, this was not its not like they sent out a Press Release saying be at the capitol at noon on that day. This was done under secrecy. They let reporters in after the fact, after, you know, we tweeted and reported that this was being held behind closed doors. The focus that day was on the democratic electors. That was the first time you saw a formal democratic vote for a democratic nominee in georgia since 1992. So i just stumbled on my way up to cover the democratic electors meeting. Again, this is all part of Prosecutor Scrutiny of what they see of what could be seen as an undermine joe bidens victory in georgia. What do you make of this . What is your takeaway from this development, and what does that what insight, if anything, does it give us into fani willis approach and her investigation. That is sort of down the middle what she is doing, although we know she is going farther afield. Its the same evidence that greg is explaining that they found in michigan, and its really classic. Its not the crime, its the coverup. They could have been saying we were meeting, we thought it was okay. When people say, no, keep it secret, put your phones here, dont tell anybody, thats when the whole thing stinks and really doesnt allow another explanation. Its the same kind of thing and potentially those orders, we dont know, well see, come from on high or at least coordinated with the guys in washington, especially Rudy Giuliani. Greg, thank you so much. We will be right back. Hank you h we will be right back. Insuranc. So you only pay for what you need. Thats my boy. Stay off the freeways only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. fan 1 there ya go thats what im talkin about josh allen is this your plan to watch the game today . hero fan uh, yea. I have to watch my neighbors Nfl Sunday Ticket. josh allen its not your best plan. But you know what is . Myplan from verizon. Switch now and theyll give you Nfl Sunday Ticket from youtubetv, on them. hero fan this plan is amazing josh allen another amazing plan, backing away from here very slowly. fan 1 that was josh allen. fan 2 mmhm. vo for a limited time get Nfl Sunday Ticket from youtubetv on us. A 449 value. Plus, get a free Samsung Galaxy s23. Only on verizon. Wayfair has nice prices, so you can have nice things. Um kelly . We have champagne taste. On a hard seltzer budget. Wayfairs got just what you need what. Yall this is nice. Salad plates . Kelly clarkson . Im fancy now i have always wanted statement lighting. Get nice things at nice prices at wayfair wayfair, youve got just what i need your record label is taking off. But so is your sound engineer. You need to hire. I need indeed. Indeed you do. Indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. Visit indeed. Com hire we are going to conclude with what you started out with, the theme of the day, patiently waiting. But one has to think of the different Tectonic Plates moving here and linking them together because of the moment we find ourselves in, the gravity of the moment. Everything about this president , all these charges are unprecedented in nature as we heard earlier today. Give me your final thoughts. That the mood and the feeling and the emotion is different than the actual reality. And we deal in reality. So the moon in the summer with everyone saying whens it coming and was it delayed, there have been indictments before, that is a feeling, and i thits very different from the reality. If you told someone ten years ago that we would have this kind of president with multiple indictments who tried to turn this country into a dictatorship, a day like today, after he has been charged and there many clues its coming, imminent soon or relatively soon, would be huge. So i think there is a level of the seasonal vibe, the emotional fatigue, the way the media says, hey, its coming. And underneath that when we return to reality, you know, back on earth one, when you put the spin aside and the efforts, which are political tricks, to define deviancy down, put that aside, to quote another historical period, you end up with a real question about whether the Justice Department, through the special counsels independence, a prosecutor who has gone after democrats and republicans alike, foreign leaders, has no discernible provable bias, whether through evidence and facts this special counsel will bring forward the first ever coup indictment in our history, something many other countries dealt with, and how will we face this test . Those of us involved, members of journalism, the bar, and how will citizens face this test, because it is a big one. It is. For our countries, our institutions. Thank you very much. Much more news to get to. Our breaking News Coverage continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. T go anywhere. Ever notice how stiff clothes can feel rough on your skin . For softer clothes that are gentle on your skin, try downy free gentle downy will soften your clothes without dyes or perfumes. The towel washed with downy is softer, and gentler on your skin. Try downy free gentle. Fundamental freedoms are under attack in our country today and there is a National Agenda at play by these extremist socalled leaders. It will be a national ban on abortion. It is the tradition of our country to fight for freedom, to fight for rights. To fight for the ability of all people to be who they are and make decisions about their own lives and their bodies. And we will fight for the ideals of our country. My cpa told me i wouldnt qualify for the erc tax refund, so i called innovation refunds. Their team of independent Tax Attorneys will work with your cpa to determine if your company is eligible. [whip sound] take the first step to see if your Small Business qualifies. You founded your Kayak Company because you love the ocean not spreadsheets. You need to hire. I need indeed. Indeed you do. Indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. Visit indeed. Com hire fly to paris. See the tower. Smaller than you expected. Wait in line. See the mona lisa. Smaller than you expected. Check in. See your room. Bigger than you expected. Join one key, where gold and platinum members get travel perks, like room upgrades. There is in question, none, that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day. No question about it. President trump is still liable for everything he did while he was in office. As an ordinary citizen, unless the statute of limitations is run, still liable for everything he did while he was in office. Didnt get away with anything yet. Yet. We have a criminal Justice System in this country. We have civil litigation. And former president s are not immune from being accountable by either one. Hi, everyone. 5 00 in new york. Those words were spoken by thensenate Majority Leader Mitch Mcconnell 900 days ago, after he voted to acquit the expresident. 900 days of needing to hold the man who incited the deadly insurrection to account. Today an update which could mean that some accountability is finally near. Here is what we know at this hour. Minutes after the d. C. Grand jury Hearing Testimony in the special counsels probe into election interference finished its session for today, the special counsel, jack smith himself, headed into his office. On his social media site donald trump said he expects to be indicted momentarily. When charges come down in smiths probe, it will mark an historic moment for the United States. Are never before has a former president tried to overthrow the will of the American People and stay in power. It was a crime that we all saw in plain sight. One we all witnessed unfold in real time on that day, January The 6th and one we learned details about thanks to reporting and congressional investigations. As we have been covering the last few months, smiths probe is sprawling. He has spoken with a stream of witnesses covering the attempted coup by the former president and his allies. Politico reports on the long list of characters who are also key in the efforts to try to prevent the peaceful transfer of power. Quote, some were involved in multiple aspects of trumps desperate attempts to cling to power, assembly false states of electors, browbeating mike pence to singlehandedly overturn joe bidens victory and weighing a plan to seize voting machines. Just to name a few. Whether jack smiths indictment believes their conduct was criminal, that remains to be seen. What we do know, the former president is a target. Today marks two weeks since he told the public that he received a Target Letter from jack smith. Joining our conversation with the Washington Post jack alemany. Former u. S. Attorney now Law Professor at the University Of Michigan and former acting assist Attorney General for National Security at the u. S. Department of justice mary mccort. Also on set former Justice Department prosecutor and Senior Member of Robert Muellers special counsels investigation Andrew Weissmann and lucky for us msnbcs chief Legal Correspondent and host of The Beat With Ari Melber ari melber. Lots to unpack this hour. Andrew, you have been in this predicament before as a special counsel, certainly working with the special counsels team. But give us any unsite that may be unfolding in the mind of jack smith and his team as we await to hear from him and perhaps others after former President Trump tweeted an indictment is imminent. I think he will be all business. Its a moment where you are really aware of the enormous burden that you have when you bring any criminal charge. Obviously, here it will be the second time he has brought a criminal charge against the former president of the United States. So, that adds extra weight. I do think there is some logistics that need to be worked out that when you bring a charge like this, in terms of when things are unsealed, when you announce it, the added issue of here you have an unusual prospective defendant who wants to publicize his own wrongdoing for various reasons that weve seen his using the criminal charges. But i think this is one where neither he nor his team views this lightly or is rejoicing or highfiefg. I think they understand what it means for this country to have a former president , as you said, who has engaged in this kind of misconduct. And just to borrow a phrase from judge lewid yesterday, in thinking about this the way he talked about it, this is something that the former president is really doing to the American People and to this c. R. E. W. Country in terms of every day he had a choice to make in terms of not engaging in this conduct, owning what happened on january 6th, agreeing that the president , president biden, was, you know, correctly voted in. And so what were seeing is, you know, real harm to the country that he is inflicting by the choices he made. Before we get into some of these broader themes, maybe the specific charges that wed be looking at, could you walk us through the technicality of what is possibly happening, the final hours, the grand jury has wrapped up its work for the day, but where does it actually go from here technically speaking, and what would compel somebody like donald trump to post that an indictment is imminent . Would the prosecutor have notified him of that . Yeah. So how an indictment gets voted is the grand jury, they have a sealed proceeding. Only the grand jurors, not the prosecutor, not the court reporter, actually deliberate and vote. Then they inform The Foreperson, informs the prosecutor what happened, and if there is a true bill, that is, if they voted yes, The Foreperson signs several copies. The foreperson and the representative of the government goes to the judge and they do whats called a handup, and he hand the physical copies of the indictment to the judge. And thats how the sort of indictment gets to the court and gets filed. Sometimes thats under seal and sometimes its not under seal. All right. You have some reporting . We are hearing that The Foreperson is back in the magistrate judges office. That is definitely interesting. Thats striking. It reflects the activity we have been following all day here. Back into the courtroom. And so we cant say what that leads to, but we can say that they are still at work and we are watching for that. So, i mean, we can discuss right now how that works. Basically, The Foreperson is not around every day, only certain days. We are at the end of the day. I dont want to get ahead of the reporting because we are trying to be precise. But i would love your color on that. Absolutely. This fits entirely with what we were just talking about. The twa in which an indictment is actually presented to the court, it is presented by The Foreperson, is there with the member of the government, one of the prosecutors, and The Foreperson is asked by the assigned judge, do you have any indictments to present . You know, yes, i do, heres the indictment, or indictments. They have signed it. They ask the person, the judge sees that its correctly been signed by everybody, so its in order, and then its in the courts prominence. Then its assigned a judge, a magistrate judge. Thats when the parties will learn who the most important thing right now will be sort of who the judge is. That determines a lot of things warks we have seen in the florida case. Why does that matter . Elaborate why the judge and when we would learn that throughout this process. As soon as this indictment is unsealed and that could happen at any moment, in fact, its possible that the government will not ask to seal the indictment at all. They could say, you know, there is no risk of flight, there is no danger to the community, there is no reason to seal. When we were con special counsel muellers team we thought there were times not to seal it. As soon as its on the docket, you would see it. Or if the government announced it. When the defendant gets it, the defendant could publicize it. Here i think there is a school of thought that the former president does that because he thinks he could make political hay out of this, something that a georgia judge just referenced yesterday about his sort of rapunzel i think i may have the fairy tale wrong. He has his own reasons rumpelstiltskin, actually, trying to spin this into gold. Thats when we would learn who the judge is. Why is it important . Because the judge has enormous discretion in decides evidentiary issues, motions, and most importantly, when this case goes to trial. 5 00, 10 00 p. M. , washington, right, there is this activity. We know its kind of more than usual, fair to say . To have The Foreperson at this hour in the court . Yes. That is unusual. I want to underscore i want to be responsible we have been playing this out all day. We are not telling you a time. We dont have that. But we are i want to be clear. We are telling you there is this level of activity which is unusual, well beyond most weeks of this grand jury thus far . Well, i mean, jack smith being in the courthouse, The Foreperson still being there, but not the rest of the grand jurors, if thats the reporting and the reporting is accurate, that, to me, would signal that there is some indictment that is being handed up because you need The Foreperson to do that. There is no remember, there is no reason for The Foreperson to be there but to be doing this because The Foreperson doesnt need to be there for motions and all sorts of other things. The one and only function of The Foreperson is as a representative of the grand jury. Remember, the vote happened under seal only with the grand jurors. So when the judge turns to The Foreperson and says, is there a true bill . Have you voted indictment . It is The Foreperson who knows that for sure because they were there and they are representing the grand jury to the court. The issue on the judge, how does the judge get selected . Certainly in a d. C. Setting . Completely random. It used to be people say it goes into the wheel. I am old enough that there was an actual wheel and they turned it and a card came out. Now its a little more sophisticated and there is a button and they tell you randomly who the judge is and thats what we learn who has this. There are a number of District Court judges. There are senior judges. Its unclear whether they would be in the wheel and included for a case like this. Some senior judges say i dont want to be considered for criminal work, only for civil work. And its up to the senior judge. So who is actually in the wheel is something that the Clerks Office certainly knows. And then the Clerks Office spins it out and they literally just stamp the indictment with the name of the judge and the name of the magistrate judge. Mary, i want to go back to something that andrew talked about and the moment of gravity that we find our country in if an indictment does come down on this specific charge, the attempt to overturn a democratic election in this country and what that means both four institutions and for rule of law in this country. Well, i think thats why this anticipated indictment i think many of us think is really in many ways the most important of the indictments that are already, you know, that mr. Trump is already facing and the one that maybe still has yet to come with fani willis and thats because the charges that we anticipate here go to the heart of our democracy. They go to the very, you know, peaceful transition of power that we have had throughout our history. They go to the constitutional requirements for, you know, electing a president , and that president taking his place in office, and, you know, as you just said, they are the rule of law. So it really is a matter not enonly of democracy but in many ways sort of National Security to think about the attack on the u. S. Capitol, the efforts to undermine the 2020 election and what that means for this country because the rest of the world is watching today just like so Many Americans are. They are watching to see what, if anything, mr. Trump will be charged with, and whether those charges will hold him accountable for his efforts to really undermine the core democratic processes of this country. And, you know, plenty of other countries failing democracies have broken down at this point of president ial transition. They have broken down when people in the country take up arms against their government, and we saw taking up arms and violence against our governmental institutions on january 6th, 2021. And so whether account bltd can be delivered through these charges and other means is very important, i think, the future of not only american democracy, but our place in The World Stage and our National Security. Could i jump in. I want to cross over to ken dilanian who has some information. We understand the grand jury has returned an indictment against an unnamed individual. Thats right. Daniel barnes, our producers in the courtroom confirms that this grand jury that has been investigating what we used to call the January 6th Case has in fact handed up an indictment against an unnamed individual or individuals. No initials or any identification was uttered in this a courtroom. We have no idea who the defendant or defendants are. But thats, obviously, deeply significant. Now we wait to see whether we will see that indictment tonight. Andrew, what do you make of that development, that the indictment has been returned or an indictment has been returned, however, no indication who the individual or as ken said individuals might be, no initials, no names. Surprising . No. Look, lets just big picture. Yeah. I know everyone is being very, very responsible. Until you have solid reporting, no one is going to say this happened, particularly given, as you mentioned, the gravity of what is about to happen. But all signs, as we have been talking about, are completely consistent with the fact that were going to see in short order the what is really the third set of charges against the former president of the United States, and this one, as you have been talking about for the last hour or so, is in connection with a former president of the United States seeking to overturn the will of the people, and is now seeking to return to the white house. So this just could not be more serious. Key things to look for, i think, are not the fact of charges, but its going to be an issue of what exactly are the charges, who else, if anyone, is going to be charged along with it. I am particularly interested whether there are sort of Campaign Fraud charges, because there has been so much information in the last couple of days about how the pac has been used to finance legal fees. As we know from the January 6th Committee, there was a lot of information about that being done as a form of Campaign Fraud, and so it will be interesting to see whether that is an aspect of what jack smith has followed up on, because that could lead not just to charges, but could lead to forfeiture, which the government is typically very focused on, keeping that not only charging the former president , but actually seizing pretrial money. That is the proceeds of fraud. Barbara, we will learn more as andrew was saying and ken were saying about what the charges may look like. From ra prosecutorial standpoint, what are you going after when you are a prosecutor, taking on a crime of this magnitude . And i say crime with many subsets to that crime. The crime of the fake electors, violence on january 6th, the attempt to up paid congress from carrying out the certification of Electoral College proceedings. Which of these do you go after if you are jack smith based on what you know publicly . Well, i think one of the Biggest Challenges for a prosecutor is to get your arms around a case because if you have the greatest evidence in the world, its not going to matter if a jury cant comprehend it. So sometimes you have such a mountain of evidence that you have to prioritize. It may be that certain schemes get abandoned in favor of other schemes. I could remember going to my first trial school at the Justice Department and one of the things they told us is that when the Justice Department loses a case, on those rare occasions, its usually because the jury didnt understand the case. Not because they didnt believe the case. So you have to keep it simple. And that can be really challenging in a case like this. A case we have never seen before. So i think they have got to focus big picture. They have got to not include too many schemes and make sure that they can present it in a way that is understandable to a jury. But they scant oversimplify it. This is an attack on our democracy. So the charges have to be commensurate with the harm. Its a Balancing Act for jack smith here. I will be curious to see what he charges and also the details that are included in what i expect will be a Speaking Indictment to help explain to the public and to jurors how this whole scheme went down. Dafrd jolly, we have been talking about the Seismic Shift that this means for our country and for our politics certainly and our institutions, our rule of law. Its hard to understate what this moment means. But there is a different reality for a large part of this country who will not see or will not feel that this indictment is anything but, as donald trump framed in the past, a political witch hunt. Well, thats exactly right. And you think the word used today, gravity, is right. We are looking at the a former president who likely is to be charged for trying to overturn our democracy and undermine the very republic. Thats a grave matter. It is a complex matter. He is likely a Major Party Nominee and possibly the next president of the United States once over. That creates a kplaeksty that we havent seen. If he was not a current candidate, its still a grave matter where we are trying to dispose of justice on someone who tried to overturn the election, but he is now asking more for political adjustment to be rendered by the American People and ignoring the Criminal Justice process. Seeing those two play out creates an existential question, a dangerous one, for democracy. The broad thematic question is jack smith and the prosecutors able to change the narrative about donald trump in a substantive way. Donald trump wants to let you think that he is just brash, he is transactional. I wasnt trying to break the law. I was asking people to help me. I have a right to think i won the election. I didnt do anything wrong. Does the indictment actually present a different donald trump . Someone who is methodical, who master minded laying the predicate of the big lie, executing on trying to change state electors, inviting people to washington and giving them the charge to go to the capitol with strength, not weakness . Thats the actions of a mastermind. A methodical mastermind. Does jack smith have evidence and ask it be presented in a joej ent way that the country begins to look at donald trump as a criminal master mind, not just as a guy who was trying to hold on to office. That might inform the political judgment that donald trump is seeking to alleviate his current Criminal Justice concerns. Lets bring in neil. This is your first time joining us. In the midst of all of these developments today, so i want to start by getting your broad reaction to what we are learning and how this is playing out in real time. What are your big takeaways at this moment with the news we learned, a grand jury has returned an indictment for an unnamed individual in the january 6th election probe . Yeah, it looks like its donald trump. Obviously, we dont know for certain. But something extraordinary is happening in the washington, d. C. , federal courthouse. I suspect it is. If thats so, this is the biggest legal case in our lifetimes, perhaps almost ever. Its up there with cases like dred scott or brown v. Board of education, monumental, life changes cases that go to the fabric of our society. You know, here, if there is an indictment against the former president , he is being indicted for his role in trying to upend a free and fair election. Sure, donald trump has been indicted multiple times before and those are very serious charges going on in florida and new york, but this is really different. I mean, trumps actions here literally imperilled american democracy. It likes he may finally have to answer for that. I know some people out there are celebrating this news and in a way its a celebration of the rule of law, but in another way, it is a profoundly sad day that we had a former President Acting as president doing this stuff. Remember, he was impeached for this. And the defense, and the one that ultimately convinced the senate not to convict him, was, well, there are other mechanisms to go after donald trump, including criminal mechanisms. So now were seeing the culmination of that process. This was Donald Trumps only own defense, that there are other processes, and if those processes are being invoked today, as it looks like it is, that is right and good and trump will have every opportunity to try and say he innocent and mount a legal defense. He will be entitled to the Presumption Of Innocence and the highest standard known in the law that the prosecution, jack smith, must prove beyond a reasonable doubt. And jack smith has to convince every one of those 12 jurors if there is an indictment and there is a trial, every one of those 12 has to be convinced that donald trump did it beyond a reasonable doubt. If any one of them says no, trump goes free. So there is a lot of Legal Process to play, that play out. But if the indictment is happening, i think its the right thing for the rule of law. Andrew. Neil, what are you going to be looking for . Assuming that we hear about an indictment, you know, momentarily, what kind of things will you be keeping an eye out for . Two things. One, who the judge is. Something, andrew, that you remarked on a little bit ago. That goes to most of all the timing question, because a judge could slow this thing down massively. And number two, what are the charges that are being brought. We know highly respected federal judge david carter in california looking at what the January 6th Committee uncovered isolated three crimes, Conspiracy To Defraud the United States, obstruction of an official proceeding, and the charge of violence. And so the and the question is, will there be a charge of violence here . That is one thing i will be looking for, is there a kind of incitement of violence that we saw play out on january 6th. Is trump going to be labeled as responsible for that, or is it going to be more on the kind of official counting and conspiracy and possible obstruction of the investigation afterwards. Does jack smith Want A Speedy Trial . Does he want this to get underway as fast as possible . If so, why . Yeah, i think so. First of all, this is one of the most investigated things in the history of our republic. There has been a ton of evidence and a ton of you know, both in congress and with jack smith. So i think he absolutely wants to go fast. And the most important reason to go fast is that donald trump wants to go super slow, run out the clock, hope that he delays the trial through appeals and delays and counsel delays and things like that until after the november 24 election. Even if trump doesnt win, he hopes some other republican can win and some other republican who may have committed during the campaign to pardon him or to drop the prosecution if the prosecution hasnt fully culminated by the time of Inauguration Day in 2025. So time is of the essence. Yeah. So, neil, i know that you are worked closely with judge ludig. Yesterday, he was on air speaking about how he thought that a federal judge could and indeed i think he said should bring this case, if its charged, to trial before the general election. And given your experience at the Justice Department and doing so much appellate work, do you agree . Do you think there are risks there . Whats your opinion . And do you agree that thats the correct assessment, you could do had consistent with due process to any defendant . Like always, i agree with the judge. At least the new judge. And the reason for that is i do think that, you know, criminal trials, you know, obviously, defendants have certain rights and so on, but there is also a Public Interest in a speedy trial. This is not like the maralago prosecution in which there are intricate deep questions about documentation. Getting counsel cleared. This does not have those kinds of procedural pieces to them. And here we are, you know, more than a year before the election. That is ample time for donald trump to, you know, do whatever he needs to with his defense and put it on in a court. If this were anyone else, andrew, you know as well as i, no chance that this trial would take place after november. And, indeed, our criminal rules are written to avoid having defendants slow down criminal prosecutions. Its only the government that can generally appeals and stop trials in the middle or before a trial begins. Defendants have limited rights, and thats because defendants always play these games, even when they are not running for the presidency. They are always trying to delay, delay, delay in our criminal rules are written to give defendants due process rights, but only up to a point. It doesnt mean you get to schedule this at your convenience. To neils point about what we are seeing playing out in the maralago case, which is the anticipation that there will be a Big Conversation in the process around classified documents and what can be presented, what can be made public, potentially slowing down that trial a little bit, in a potential indictment or on january 6th probe could we see or anticipate the defense of donald trump and others to focus around president ial Executive Privilege to try to slow down the conversation to try to slow down the process based on the conversations he was having as an executive in the period between election day and january 6th . I think we are going to see about every, you know, legal argument that his attorneys can muster in various motions in an effort to slow this down. I think many of them will lack merit. Some may have merit. Executive privilege comes into play more when were talking about what witnesses the government might call and what evidence of internal White House Communications that the government might want to enter into evidence. I would say that a lot of the witnesses though have already that has already been litigated in the course of their appearances before the grand jury. As you know, there were multiple challenges brought during this investigation when witnesses when donald trump was claiming Executive Privilege with respect to various witnesses. In those instances, jack smith took those to the chief judge of the d. C. District court. In so far as what has been publicly reported, we know those arguments were rejected and people had to testify. I think some of those issues have been hashed out. That doesnt mean there wont be more raised by his attorneys. And if there are multiple defendants, everyone will have their own attorney. They will all be Filing Motions of various types. Mowings to dismiss the indictment. Motions to suppress certain evidence, et cetera, and there could be discovery disputes. Jack smith and his team will be doing everything to make this go as smoothly, as quickly as possible, just like they have done in the maralago case. They probably have all the discovery to hand over. Here we dont have classified discovery, in so far as we know, and i have no reason to believe we would have any, and if any, it would be an insignificant amount. So they probably have grand jury transcripts ready to hand over. They probably have the evidence in a digital format ready to turn over to try to say, your honor, we can get to trial quickly because we provided everything to the defense. Mary, nice to see you again. I know that you have been an ausa in the d. C. Courthouse for, you know, many, many, many years. I was wondering if you could talk to us about how equipped they are to handle Something Like this. Such historic significance where there will be so many issues, but also the issues involving security, the press, the public. You know, there were a lot of discussions about that when we were dealing with the florida charges and how equipped they would be to handle that. Given your unique experience with the d. C. Courthouse, how do you think they what their experience is and how they would fare Going Forward with this unique challenge . So i would say this courthouse maybe is better prepared than any other in the country. You might quarterly with me about it. But this courthouse has had had many, many, many very, very highprofile cases. I mean highprofile cases involving former government officials. In your own experience on the mueller investigation, right, there were prosecutions of michael flynn, of roger stone. We have had in previous years scooter libby. We have had caspar weinberger. Those are all individuals at high levels of the federal government who have faced charges in that d. C. Courthouse going back decades. In fact, the Weinberger Case was i shouldnt date myself like this at the time i was clerking there, because i clerked in this courthouse as well. And so this courthouse and the judges there and the chief judge, they are very, very familiar with highprofile cases, managing crowds, managing security. They have a wonderful relationship not only their own marshall, but with the, you know, metropolitan Police Department and all the different federal Law Enforcement agencies that the district of columbia who can be, you know, brought on if necessary. They also are very well equipped, or at least they have been in the past, to provide for media access to highprofile cases. They sort of pioneered the idea of a media overflow room, so that the media wouldnt necessarily have to be in the courtroom where they cant bring their laptops or their phones and, you know, be on the phone or typing in the courtroom. They created a media room mary, could i interrupt you is . We are following this in real time. Some updates now. Ken dilanian has some information. We understand that donald trump, former president of the United States, has been indicted on four counts in relation to the attempt to overturn our election. Ken. Reporter thats right. Donald trump, the 45th president of the United States, has been indicted by a grand jury in washington, d. C. , on four criminal counts. I havent been able to read it yet. I saw the cover sheet and it includes obstruction of an official proceeding and Conspiracy To Defraud the United States. More as we get it, we will dig into it. But donald trump has been indicted tonight by a grand jury in washington, d. C. , in this longrunning investigation about efforts to attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 election. So, drew wiseman, two and a half years after that day, january 20th, we now have an indictment against the president. These charges as we learn more about them, we know two obstruction and Conspiracy To Defraud the government of the United States. Your initial reaction to those two as we continue to work through the others . I think on obstruction, i think the thing that is important for people to know is thats the least surprising and the reason is, and it gets like a glove, is that so many people who participated in the actual january 6th insurrection have been charged with this. To donald trump and his supporters who might think that he is being singled out, and this is a form of selective prosecution, this would, for him not to be charged with this, would actually have been a form of selective nonprosecution. He is being charged just like everyone else for their roles in connection with what happened. So this that charge is not surprising because it is exactly what everyone else would participated in the events and it would make very little sense to me that you would charge foot soldiers for obstruction but somebody who is accused of being the leader of that obstruction would not be charged. Let me read from the indictment. This was point four of the indictment that has been released shortly after the election day. Donald trump pursued unlawful means of discounting legitimate votes and subverting the election results. In doing so, the defendant perp rated three criminal conspiracies. Conspiracy to defraud the United States by using dishonesty, fraud and deceit to impair, obstruct and defeat the lawful federal government function by which the results of the president ial election are collected. Point b. A conspiracy to corruptly object strunt and impede the January 6th Congressional Proceeding which the results of the president ial election are counted and certified. C, a conspiracy against the right to vote and to have ones vote counted in violation of 18 usc 241. Are barbara, i want your thoughts to those conspiracy charges i read out from the indictment. Yeah, these are kind of the core crimes that people have been talking about for a long time, with the addition of the one that showed up in the trump Target Letter, 18 usc 241, the deprivation of rights, the right to vote. So this strikes me as not unexpected. It does not appear that jack smith is swinging for the fences, that he was able to link donald trump at least not yet to the violence that occurred at the capitol. He has not charged inciting insurrection. It is that whole scheme to defraud the United States and disrupt the peaceful and lawful transfer of president ial power. This strikes me as, frankly, the right call. I would worry if he was trying to swing for the fences, go for things that could be difficult to prove or looked too political. These are very, very serious crimes. That conspiracy, these three conspiracies, allow him to go from a to z, all of the things happening before the election when he started laying the groundwork about how vote by mail might be rife for fraud and all the way after the election, january 6th and beyond, even to this day he is saying things about, you know, that the election was stolen. So this strikes me as very sound Charging Decisions and i look forward to reading the details. Before we get into the details, andrew, you pointed out something you and neil were talking about. You were curious to know who the judge was going to be. We have a name of the judge. What can you tell us about who he is . Who she is. I apologize. I misread. Tanya sue chutkan. So the bench in d. C. Is very strong and no one stronger than judge chutkan. So this is an extremely good draw. It should be he extremely good draw for either side. She is really solid and well respected jurist. She started on the bench in d. C. In 2014. She was nominated by president obama and is just, i think, widely, widely respected and i also think is i mean, its hard for anyone to ever be prepared for a case of this magnitude, but i think that this is one that will be well within her skill set and experience. This is not somebody who is new to the federal bench and new to dealing with these issues. You know, that has been the sort of knock on aileen cannon. Thats not the case with judge chutkan. One of the things we are learning in this 45page indictment, and our viewers, we are doing this in real time on the air, as you could imagine, we now have six codefendants that were in this indictment. I will list very quickly who they are. We dont know specifically their names. We know their positions. An attorney willing to spread knowingly false claims and pursue strategies that the defendants 2020 Reelection Campaign attorneys would not. Coconspirator two, an attorney who devised and tempted implement a strategy to leverage the Vice President s ceremonial role overseeing the certification process. Coconspirator three, an attorney who unfounded claims of election fraud, the defendant privately acknowledged to others sounded crazy. Coconspirator four, a Justice Department official who worked On Civil Matters and who with the defendant attempted to use the Justice Department to open Sham Election Crime Investigations. Coconspirator number five, an attorney who assisted in devising and attempting to implement a plan to submit fraudulent president ial electors. Coconspirator number six. A political consultant who helped implement a plan to submit fraudulent slates electors. They were operating on the two different crimes we are talking about. Attempt to impede the congressional proceedings and conspiracy to provide false electors. Absolutely. They didnt name people. That is Justice Department policy, unless you are charged. We can infer. This is when its not hard to infer. Jeffrey clark is clearly called out when they talk about a prior doj official who is a civil person who started a Justice Department official who worked On Civil Matters and used the Justice Department to open Sham Election Crime Investigations and influence State Legislators with knowingly false claims of election yeah. You are referring that to be jeffrey clack. Sidney powell is another person. John eastman is one. I think Rudy Giuliani may be another. Obviously, we have to look at this more closely. But that seems to be who they are describing. The thing to watch for is whether there are additional charges. Stay with me. Ken dilanian at the department of justice with more information. Ken . Reporter i think what you just read is very significant aspect of this indictment that we didnt see coming. The January 6th Committee had a whole hearing about this. One of the most compelling days with senior former senior Justice Department officials testifying about this scheme to use the Justice Department and this letter that was drafted by jeffrey clark, a lower level official at the Justice Department, that he wanted the Justice Department to send out i believe there was one to georgia, but others to other states, saying we, the Justice Department, have found fraud and we have significant concerns about fraud and we think you should call your legislature into special session. Many observers said had that letter gone out on Justice Department letterhead, the consequences would have been almost unimaginable because as it is, millions of people believed donald trump that there was fraud in the election. Had Justice Department officially endorsed that claim, it would have been a disaster. Instead, trump appointees inside the doj stopped it, but now the Justice Department as part of this indictment is alleging that was part of the criminal conspiracy. I also think its noteworthy, there is a section in here laying out the reasons why donald trump knew that he lost the election. A lot of this is known and has been reported on, but he was briefed by senior officials in his government, including the director of National Intelligence and his former Attorney General and others, very clearly he lost the election. Thats important because they have to prove that in order to make this case. They have to prove this was a knowing fraud by donald trump and they say that they can do that in this indictment. So ari melber is here. Something that jumped out to me and i am working this document in real time. But we talked about the mindset of donald trump and how important that was going to be to understand whether he knew what he was doing was in the furtherance of a crime. And now we have it here in the indictment. These claims, according to the indictment, about the elections, the claims were false, the defendant knew that they were false, in fact, the defendant was notified repeatedly that his claims were up true, often by the people unwhom he relied for candidate advice on important matters and best positioned to know the facts and he deliberately disregarded the truth and it lists examples of him disregarding the truth. Thats a core of the brandnew indictment because the lies here are actually crimes, according to jack smith. That language defraud the u. S. Means that you are knowingly perpetuating a fraud. I am going to hold it up here for our newsroom cameras. We talk about a Speaking Indictment. This is something more like a shouting indictment. This is incredibly detad. We have been making our way through it. I read part of it. It is incredibly broad, specific, and damning. The number of states involved are far broader than you need. We are seeing basically a multistate conspiracy allegation. What they call the sixth, quote, contested states. We are seeing basically three conspiracies, jack smith charges donald trump with, you have alluded to these. At one point he says with some details the Conspiracy To Defraud the u. S. Was using fraud to impair and obstruct the lawful federal government function to process a president ial election. To impede the January 6th Congressional Proceeding. Thats the day that they stormed the capitol. Then c, a conspiracy against the right it to vote and have ones volt counted in rye violations of federal law. We heard a lot of spin and minimizing and lies, outright lies about what happened around january 6th. This is now going to be tested in court. The new indictment of donald trump here is jack smith saying there were these three conspiracies that are charged. Arkansas for the six coconspirators, my view and our analysts will weigh in, i think is a broader set of coconspirators that many expected. There was talk about what my colleague mentioned, there was a doj official, mr. Clark, mr. Eastman, a controversial lawyer who was pushing things that he admitted into writing were probably unlawful. This is six individuals. The three attorneys, four attorneys, excuse me, doj official and coconspirator six, a political consultant who implemented a plan to submit fraudulent slates of president ial electors. The reason this is significant, we are looking at different lanes. Jack smith has to have the evidence to prove all of them. But he is also going to be presenting to a jury, if this goes to trial, many different crimes, three different conspiracies. If win some, not all of those, you have then a conviction. So, andrew, i bring you in on that. And the Vice President part is the one more thing i wanted to flag and get your legal analysis on because we are doing this in real time. This looks like new information to me. Im reading from page 33. December 25th, Vice President called the defendant, former president disproportionate the defendant. Called the defendant to wish him a merry christmas. Reading from the new indictment. The defendant quickly turned the conversation to january 6th. So this is of course two weeks out. It says, quote, the Vice President pushed back, telling the defendant, as he had before, quote, you know i dont have the authority to change the outcome. And then this this very damning narrative continues december 29, january 1, january 33. I wont read owl of them. Its outlining as criminal evidence and this never happened before today as criminal evidence what the thenout going president was doing and saying to officials in government, including his number two, the Vice President , is criminal evidence of a Conspiracy To Defraud the United States. The pushback to this, and the defendants presumed innocent, it would be well doesnt the president have Broad Authority to make inquiries, requests and issue orders to his subordinates . And here what were seeing andrew weigh in in you like that was crossing over from governing to abusing the power of the United States government to defraud and commit a crime against the u. S. Well, lets remember that every government official, most of all, the president of the United States, whoever holds that office takes an oath of office to uphold the constitution. To your point, if luke at paragraph 90b on page 33, you have the allegation clearly coming from the Vice President of the United States, who, remember, went into the grarj and testified. Something he didnt provide information to the January 6th Committee. And he said that the president of the United States told him falsely, told him falsely that the, quote, Justice Department was finding major infractions. And we though thats not true. We know from that bill barr, jeffrey rose rn, from donahue, jeff clark was willing to say i am going to say that, which is what the former president wanted, just say it, even though it wasnt true. So this is definitely a major new allegation. I just wanted to comment for a moment on what some viewers may have as a question. You referenced that there were six coconspirators who werer are not named but are clearly sort of identified and people are gonna be quickly putting together who they are. And somebody might ask, why are they not charged in this . Or named. Exactly. Not named because they arent charged. Thats a doj policy, basically put up or shut up. If you charge somebody, you can name them. If you are not charging them, you cant name them. Thats why you have things like in the maralago case employee one, employee two, attorney one, attorney two. But if you look at the cover page, it is just United States versus donald j. Trump. This to me shows that jack smith wants to get to trial and he wants me shows jack smith wants to get to trial and get to trial quickly. Those other people may be charged in a separate case. But the reason you dont see seven defendants is if you want to get to trial, you bring something narrow and focused against the defendant who you need to try before the general election. So, if i were those six people, i would not be sleeping well tonight, but i dont think that we should anticipate theyre going to be included here, because this shows a singular focus for jack smith on speed. Neal katyal is with us. Neal, were working our way through this 45page indictment, and just at a glance, you can see that its multistate. Ive seen already talking about crimes or attempts to further the crime in pennsylvania, in wisconsin, in michigan, and ga, that theres a reference to the infamous georgia phone call that the defendant made to Brad Raffensperger in which he instructed him to find 11,000 plus votes. The level of detail in this is astonishing and specifically as it relates to january 6th, several pages, almost a minute by minute account of what happened on january 6th between the defendant, the communication that he was having and the coconspirators around the violence of January The 6th. Yeah, ari described this as a screaming indictment, and hes right. The level of detail is so astounding its going to take us a while to go through it all. Eamon, i think what youre reading about the different states reflects jack smiths tactical decision, was to use the conspiracy doctrine. The most important thing about the conspiracy doctrine i spent several years wright academic articles about it. The most important thing about it is it applies to cocurrent crimes. You dont have to be successful. We can agree to rob a bank. Doesnt have to be successful. Here donald trump could have agreed with others, the six others to try to prevent the initial count from happening. Doesnt have to actually prevent the count from happening. Its a crime by itself to make that kind of agreement and to further act in furtherance of that agreement. I think thats why you see so much emphasis on these different states and all the different attempts donald trump and his minions had to overturn the popular vote in this election. The other thing about the conspiracy doctrine, and this goes to andreas point about the six other people who are unnamed here i agree with andrew, i read this as jack smith saying my target here for now is trump and i want nothing to slow me down. For example, when we did the prosecution of george floyd in minnesota, of which i was a part, there were four defendants. We were worried in Derek Chauvin committing the took the most direct action, but we felt strongly the others played an integral part. That does run the risk of slowing down a criminal trial. Here jack smith took the view, im going to indict one for now, for now being the keywords, because the other part of the conspiracy doctrine, the most important other part about it is that it is used to try and flip defendants to say to someone, hey, look, youre facing massive criminal exposure here. Come and testify against those who ordered you and conspired with you to do this, and you can avoid serious sanctions. I think thats what the prosecutors are think about here as well. The last thing i want to point out is judge in d. C. , i have had experience with her, many others today have very, very respected judge. Doesnt play politics left or right. She served as a public defender many, many years. Thats her training and background, and she will bring a criminal defense lawyers perspective to this case. Yes, shes appointed by obama, and i suspect well hear donald trump talking about that, but this is a very, very good draw for both sides. A fairminded judge who understands criminal defendants rights. You bring up two interesting points. Im going to get to them. We had a feed of the department of justice, the newsroom, and you can start seeing some reporters getting in there. Were expecting a statement from the special counsel jack smith. Were certainly going to bring that to you live when it gets under way. We dont have a time yet when that is going to happen. If the past was any indication it will probably be a short statement. Nonetheless, well have that for you. Neal, to your point about the judge, tanya s. Chutkin. Other correspondent point out according to the docket she was a d. C. Federal judge who sentenced many january 6th defendants to the sentences longer than what the government had asked for. Your thoughts on that . I think thats true of many judges in d. C. Remember, almost every judge has January 6th Case maybe every single judge, because they have overwhelmed that courthouse, and sure, i think most judges have sometimes gone up and sometimes gone down on the governments request on sentencing. I dont think that itself tells us much. This is a person who has a really long track record of, you know, listening to prosecutors, listening to defense attorneys, but not someone like the old kind of style federal judge, former prosecutor who tends to listen to other prosecutors. Thats not her reputation at all here. So i think jack smith is going to have to be cautious here and not push the envelope, because she will have none of it. Andrew, can i ask you about this . You talked about the first page of the indictment. There are four counts listed here. Two of them are conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding but different codes next to them. Can you explain what those differences might be from those two codes . Count one is Conspiracy To Defraud the United States. Count two, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding. Count three is also an attempt to obstruct an official proceeding and count four is conspiracy against rights. Sure shoo. So if you look at paragraph four, there are different conspiracies that are alleged, and so the conspiracy where its to obstruct the governmental functions, that triggers a violation of a certain statute 371. You have another which is an obstruction of congress. Thats a separate statute, which is 1512. They sound alike, but very often what you do is you look at a set of facts, and then you look at the congressional code that makes things crimes, and you figure out which crime fits that set of facts. Often a single set of facts triggers different crimes. It sales a way the deal with uncertainty in the law. With respect to the obstruction charge under 1512, there is pending case and there is a pending issue with respect to the scope of the 1512 statute. Its a lot of really nerdy law stuff. But one of the ways that if youre jack smith you bring a conservative indictment is thinking of ways to charge this with different statutes. The 371 conspiracy, that is bread and butter. That has been charged time immemorial. And so that is very, very hard to think how youd have a legal challenge to that. So, this is a way of making this very rock solid. Joining me on set, msnbc legal analyst lisa reuben. You have had a few minutes longer than us to go through the legal documents. You must be an expert by now. I was going to same or similar circumstance compared to us youre an expert now. What are the big takeaways from what you have been able to read so far . One of the things that jumps out to me is in addition to the six coconspirators who are identify, some of whom we can take educated guesses who they are, theres mention of mark meadows, referring to him as the dependent chief of staff. Him not being in that list of coconspirators is interesting, certainly based on Cassidy Hutchinsons testimony before the January 6th Committee. You might expect him to be considered among those coconspirators. Certainly here in paragraph 55 they talk about mark meadows emailing and sharing a memo written as to how to execute the fake electors plot to others on the campaign. So its not as if hes not involved in this constellation of facts. Whos chez brou. Hes an attorney. I believe hes coconspirator five here. Hes a lawyer that worked originally with Trump Campaign lawyers in wisconsin. Hes the legal mastermind behind the fake electors plot. In particular, he drafted the document that took each group of fake electors through how to implement this game. Essentially like, heres what you need to do. Im going to send you step by step instructions for doing this. Because none of these people understood how to be fake electors in the way that the Trump Campaign and allies wanted them to be were it not for him seeding the ground work for the legal theory and showing them how to do it. A moment to thank all our guest who is tried to make sense a this monumental and historic indictment against a former president of the United States to try to overturn an election. Thanks to everyone. The beat with ari melber continues. First comments from special counsel jack smith, we are expecting those in a few minutes. Ari . Eamon, good to be with you on this breaking news day. Thank you for your coverage. Welcome to the beat. Im ari melber. As discussed we are awaiting jack smith here who will speak on the breaking news of donald trump indicted in the election probe. Special counsel jack smith has charged donald trump now on four counts, Conspiracy To Defraud the u. S. , conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding obstruction and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding and conspiracy against rights. Those are four different crimes that donald trump has now been indict on. This is a huge and significant development. If youve heard about legal issues with donald trump before, if youve heard about him being indicted before, this is the